7 20 685 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/7a8057f30b8401543e1813bdf2d3f696.doc b0c73a1eb17b81dac6ba19c5767ab34b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Project Materials Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 3 - Oral Histories Project Materials Box 7, Folder 4 - OSU Materials Box 7, Folder 5 - Strategic Planning & Leadership Box 7, Folder 6 - Project Notes Items Not in Folders Digital Media: Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document TOHR GLBT History Project Interviewer’s Release Form TO BE COMPLETED BY INTERVIEWERS, RECORDING OPERATORS, AND PHOTOGRAPHERS Version Dated May 3, 2003 I, ________________________________________ , am a participant in the Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (“TOHR”) GLBT History Project (the “Project”). I understand that one of the purposes of the Project is to collect audio- and video-recorded oral histories of individuals concerning the GLBT history in the Tulsa area as well as selected related documentary materials such as photographs and manuscripts that may be deposited in the permanent collections of the Project. The deposited documentary materials will serve as a record of the interviewee’s experiences; and may be used for scholarly and educational purposes. I understand that the Project plans to retain the product of my participation as part of its permanent collection and that the materials may be used for exhibition, publication, presentation on the World Wide Web and successor technologies, and for promotion of TOHR and its activities in any medium. I hereby grant to TOHR ownership of the physical property delivered to the Project and the right to use the property that is the product of my participation (for example, my interview, performance, photographs, and written materials) as stated above I also grant to TOHR my absolute and irrevocable consent for any photograph(s) provided by me or taken of me in the course of my participation in the Project to be used, published, and copied by TOHR and its assignees in any medium. I agree that TOHR may use my name, video or photographic image or likeness, statements, performance, and voice reproduction, or other sound effects without further approval on my part. I release TOHR, and its assignees and designees, from any and all claims and demands arising out of or in connection with the use of such recordings, documents, and artifacts, including but not limited to, any claims for defamation, invasion of privacy, or right of publicity. ACCEPTED AND AGREED Signature ________________________________________________________ Date______________ Printed Name _________________________________________ Address ____________________________________________________________________________ City __________________________________ State ______ ZIP ______________ - ____________ month/day/year Telephone ( ________ ) -____________________ Relationship to Interviewee, if any: __________________________________________________________ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2003] TOHR GLBT History Project Interviewer's Release Form Description An account of the resource A release form meant to be completed by interviewers for the Oral Histories Project. The form grants to TOHR ownership of all products of interview participation. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 3, 2003 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/623d823e7456675b7b6d9579a0e8ac54.doc 278cc0183787d923852479080100c03e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Project Materials Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 3 - Oral Histories Project Materials Box 7, Folder 4 - OSU Materials Box 7, Folder 5 - Strategic Planning & Leadership Box 7, Folder 6 - Project Notes Items Not in Folders Digital Media: Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document <h1>INTERVIEW QUESTIONS – TULSA GLBT HISTORY PROJECT</h1> Revised September 11, 2005 Basic Biography Where/when were you born? What is your ethnic background? Family background? Education? How long have you lived in Tulsa? What brought you here? Occupations? Out at work? Marriage? Children? Long-term GLBT relationships? Sexual Identity Would you classify yourself as homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual for most of your adult life? If homosexual/bisexual, how long have you been “out”? When did you have your first homosexual experience? What was your first visit to a gay-related place or event like? What did you expect? Did your sexual preference create problems for you or between you and your family? Employment issues? Neighborhood issues? Did/do you have a strong network of gay friends and/or acquaintances? How did these relationships develop? When/how did you realize that there were others that shared your sexual preference? How visible were you and your friends in the community? Did you ever encounter prejudice on the part of the police, government officials, etc.? What kind of relationships did you and your fiends have with the police, religious authorities, district attorneys, etc.? What were the limits of “acceptable” public behavior and how were the norms enforced? Community How did one know if somebody was homosexual in the 1920s/1930s/1940s/1950s in Tulsa? Were there any distinctive attitudes, fashions, language, or occupations that seemed to resonate with your homosexual friends than other groups? Social taboos? No-nos? Ways of finding each other? How did you keep in touch with current events relating to your homosexuality? Any underground newspapers or newsletters? Where did you and your friends hang out? Any particular establishments, neighborhoods, parks, homes, or other places that were popular? “Rules” for how to act around GLBT people, around straight people? In public? Private? Role models and/or inspirations within the community? Famous people? Cultural icons? Stories from elders – did you recall stories you heard from older GLBT people about their experiences? Did elders give you any advice? What about bars and honkey-tonks? Any of them exclusively cater to gay/bisexual men/women? If so, where were they located and what were they called? Were there ever any galas, socials, or “drag balls” in the Tulsa area that you heard about or attended? Explain… Any pictures or memorabilia you might like to share? What impact did events like WWI, WWII, the Great Depression, or the tumultuous 1950s have on your lifestyle, friendships, socializing patterns, etc. Any discernible turning points in the acceptance/mortification of homosexuality that you can remember? <ol> <li>What was your military experience like? Stats?</li> <li>Were you “out”? Others?</li> </ol> Were you or anyone you knew ever involuntarily committed because of your sexuality? Substance abuse? Describe any distinctive examples of prejudice or violence you encountered in Tulsa that stemmed from your sexual preference? Terms – what did you call yourselves? Gay? Queer? Butch/Femme? Humor – what things made you laugh? GLBT-specific humor? Pranks? In-jokes? Were butch-femme roles pervasive? Personal experiences? When/what? “Passing” by butch women? Violence? How strict were roles adhered to, enforced? Interactions between gay men and women? Positive? Was Tulsa any less tolerant of homosexuality than other places you lived/visited? Was it easier being gay then than it is now? Explain… Race/Ethnicity Personal background? Impact? Recollections of white/black interaction within GLBT community? Segregation? How do you account for white/black split in GLBT community now? Black GLBT life? Memories to share? Contacts? Ethnic/Race-specific bars, organizations? Interracial relationships? Yours? Others’? Attitudes toward? Your or other GLBT people’s involvement in the civil rights movement? Racial prejudice within GLBT community? Religion/Spirituality What is your religious background? Did it affect your attitude toward your sexual identity? If so, how? Changes in your religious beliefs after coming out? If so, why? What? Membership in any GLBT religious organizations, churches? Experiences? Sex Let’s talk about sex---where did gay/bisexual men in Tulsa go if they wanted to have a sexual experience? Was it easy to have a sexual encounter in Tulsa? Were the police or community groups ever problematic in allowing these to occur? What are some of the most notorious or memorable sexual encounters you have personally had in Tulsa? Slang? Monogamy? Casual sex? AIDS? When did you first learn? Alter your behavior? Community’s response? Personal stories? Was there ever any homosexual-heterosexual contact of which you remember? How were the “straight” men viewed by the community? Any prejudice or negative ramifications? Impersonation What do you know about the history of female impersonation in Tulsa? When did you first dress in drag? What led you to do this? Anybody “lead” you to it, or did it just occur naturally? Where would one go in the 1940s/1950s/1960s to do shows? Any notorious drag bars/clubs? Private parties? Were they high profile affairs? High profile people? Did drag assume a large role in the gay community---was it a central aspect of socialization, a humorous escapade, a means to make a living? Explain. Leather/S/M Experiences? Events? Bars? Bars How many bars have you owned? Names, dates, etc. Were they always “gay,” or did you cultivate mixed crowds? Lucrative business? Did you face a lot of community pressure, police pressure, familial pressure in regard to starting/running a bar? Which bars did you attend? Police harassment? Atmosphere? Activism What were the political values you grew up with? Have they changed since then? How and why? Active in social movements? Civil Rights? Anti-war? Women’s? Were you ever politically active with GLBT issues? If so, what groups? Activities? Members? Summing up Other topics you want to cover? Significant changes? Advice to others? Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] History Project Interview Questions Description An account of the resource A list of questions for Oral Histories Project interviews. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 11, 2005 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/bcf0edcc3b208beee7109593ffc93585.doc bbcce0220ba472ffbefd7f50b18a3ec9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Project Materials Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 3 - Oral Histories Project Materials Box 7, Folder 4 - OSU Materials Box 7, Folder 5 - Strategic Planning & Leadership Box 7, Folder 6 - Project Notes Items Not in Folders Digital Media: Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document #__-____ City ______________________________________ State, County _______________________________ Date ______________________________________ <h3>Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights</h3> <h3>GLBT History Project Informed Consent</h3> <ol> <li>I hereby agree to participate in an interview in connection with the oral history project known as _____________________________________. I understand that I will be asked about _____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________.</li> <li>The interview will be videotaped and/or audio-taped. In the interview I may be identified by name, subject to my consent. I may also be identified by name in any transcript (whether verbatim or edited) of such interview, subject to my consent. If I choose to remain anonymous, I know that the tape(s) of my interview will be closed to use, and my name will not appear in the transcript or reference to any material contained in the interview. I know that in the case of choosing to remain anonymous, my interview will only be identified by an internal GLBT History Project tracking number.</li> <li>I understand that the interview will take approximately _____ hours and that I can withdraw from the project without prejudice prior to the execution and delivery of a deed of gift, a form of which is attached hereto. In the event that I withdraw from the interview, any tape made of the interview will be either given to me or destroyed, and no transcript will be made of the interview. I understand that a photograph of me will be taken or borrowed for duplication, and that if I withdraw from the project, the photograph will be given to me.</li> <li>Subject to the provisions of paragraph five below, I understand that, upon completion of the interview, the tape and content of the interview belong to Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, and that the information in the interview can be used by Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights in any manner it will determine, subject only to the limitations listed below.</li> <li>Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights agrees that: (i) it will not use or exercise any of its rights to the information in the interview prior to the signing of the deed of gift; (ii) the deed of gift will be submitted to me for my signature at completion of the interview; and (iii) restrictions on the use of the interview can be placed in the deed of gift and will be accepted as amending Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Right's rights to the content of the interview. I understand that I have the right to review the tape or transcript of the interview before I sign the deed of gift.</li> <li>Any restrictions as to use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript.</li> <li>I understand that at the conclusion of this project and upon signing the deed of gift, the tape, photograph, and one copy of the transcript will be kept in the possession of Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and its Archive.</li> <li>If I have questions about the research project or procedures, I know I can contact _________________________________ at the GLBT History Project, TOHR, P.O. Box 2687, Tulsa, OK 74101, (918) 743-4297 or via e-mail at history@tohr.org.</li> </ol> If I feel I have not been treated according to the descriptions in this form, or that my rights as a participant in research have been violated during the course of this project, I know I can contact the President of the Board of Directors of Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, P.O. Box 2687, Tulsa, OK 74101, (918) 743-4297 or by e-mail at bortolani@tohr.org. ____ I agree to be identified by name in any transcript or reference to any information contained in this interview. ____ I wish to remain anonymous in any transcript or reference to any information contained in this interview. I wish to have the tape(s) containing my interview closed to use. I wish to have my transcript only identified by an internal GLBT History Project tracking number. ____ I wish to have the following limitations placed on the use of my interview: ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Interviewer signature_____________________________________ Interviewee signature_____________________________________ Address _____________________________________ _____________________________________ _____________________________________ Phone number _____________________________________ Consent Date __/__/__ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [ND] Oral Histories Project Interview Informed Consent Form Description An account of the resource GLBT History Project informed consent form for Oral History Project interviews. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND https://history.okeq.org/files/original/f1d543e153a9e1f1cbc60d3dbee83d4e.doc 3a33490c2ae1e7100877893497b0214c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Project Materials Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 3 - Oral Histories Project Materials Box 7, Folder 4 - OSU Materials Box 7, Folder 5 - Strategic Planning & Leadership Box 7, Folder 6 - Project Notes Items Not in Folders Digital Media: Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document <h3 style="text-align:center;">Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights</h3> <h3 style="text-align:center;">GLBT History Project</h3> <h3 style="text-align:center;">Deed of Gift Form</h3> (a) I, ____________________________, hereby give to Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights for scholarly, educational and general use the recordings of interview(s) conducted with me on _______________, and I grant to Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights all of the rights I possess in those recordings, including all intellectual property rights. I understand that Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights grants me a nonexclusive license to make and to authorize others to make any use of the content of those recordings, and that Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights will, at my request, make available a copy of those recordings for such use. (b) If I wish to remain anonymous in any interview transcript or reference to any information contained in this interview, I will specify this restriction in paragraph (c) below. (c) The foregoing gift and grant of rights is subject to the following restrictions: This agreement may be revised or amended by mutual consent of the parties undersigned. Accepted by: ________________________________________ Date __________________ Interviewer, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights ________________________________________ Date __________________ Interviewee signature _________________________________________________________________ Interviewee address and telephone number Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Deed of Gift Form Description An account of the resource Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights GLBT History Project Deed of Gift Form Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 9, 2019 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/0d426be7c4cbee728bc6662809a1c1e6.pdf 6b7bcb0c286cb5c7ddf8bc5b88622c10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vernon Jones Obituary Description An account of the resource Transcript: Vernon Leon Jones, 88, of Tulsa, Oklahoma, left this earthly plane to be with his late partner Phil Wiley, on February 5th, 2024. He was born in Oklahoma, on May 3rd, 1935. As a gay man, born and raised here, Vernon’s chosen family is vast. He is survived by Hayward Jones, Nekesha Jones, JaKobe Jones, Sue Davis, Fred Hilliard, Arlowe Clementine, Mason Thomas, Rey Thomas, and so many other individuals that claimed Vernon as their friend, family, and elder. Vernon was an active learner, even in his later years. He was always working to understand the world around him and was eternally hopeful for a better world. He was a strong advocate for marginalized peoples and was particularly committed to Queer and Black Liberation. Vernon was a clear Taurus. He was intelligent, dependable, logical, honest, and generous. Vernon spent most of his life focused on making his community better. He was a holder of receipts. A maker of spreadsheets. A true community historian and archivist. Vernon was dedicated to making people safer, both in his career in emergency management and his activist work in the fight against AIDS. He was not a stranger to controversy and was unrelenting in speaking his truth and the truth of the people he loved. In the years before his death, Vernon worked hard to ensure that the legacy of LGBTQ activism in Tulsa was properly recorded and preserved for current and future generations. His substantial archive is now housed in Oklahoma State University’s Archives. This collection will be witnessed by researchers and community members for years to come. Vernon was a connector. He worked hard to bring people together and was always willing to give someone support that needed it. Even in his death, he is connecting individuals over their shared love and respect for him and his life. Vernon fought hard for his community and the legacy of his late partner Phil Wiley. Anyone who knew Vernon was graced with stories of Phil’s life and legacy as well as their love for one another. In lieu of flowers, we ask that you remember Vernon by learning something new, taking a stand on social issues that are important to you, and keeping his life and legacy alive through storytelling. Vernon’s memorial service will take place March 1st at 11 AM at Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home (<a href="https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=bfe3dfa29743f8d2JmltdHM9MTcwODY0NjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0xYTQ3OGQzZC1hYmNmLTYxMWUtMDhjNC05ZjI0YWFiYTYwNDUmaW5zaWQ9NTc0Nw&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=1a478d3d-abcf-611e-08c4-9f24aaba6045&u=a1L21hcHM_Jm1lcGk9MTIzfn5Vbmtub3dufkFkZHJlc3NfTGluayZ0eT0xOCZxPUJ1dGxlci1TdHVtcGZmJTIwJTI2JTIwRHllciUyMEZ1bmVyYWwlMjBIb21lJTIwJTI2JTIwQ3JlbWF0b3J5JnNzPXlwaWQuWU43MDl4MTIzMDIxMzUmcHBvaXM9MzYuMTU2OTEzNzU3MzI0MjJfLTk1Ljk2MTc5OTYyMTU4MjAzX0J1dGxlci1TdHVtcGZmJTIwJTI2JTIwRHllciUyMEZ1bmVyYWwlMjBIb21lJTIwJTI2JTIwQ3JlbWF0b3J5X1lONzA5eDEyMzAyMTM1fiZjcD0zNi4xNTY5MTR-LTk1Ljk2MTgmdj0yJnNWPTEmRk9STT1NUFNSUEw&ntb=1">2103 E 3rd St, Tulsa, OK 74104</a>). PDF Text Text 1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory  Vernon Leon Jones May 03, 1935 - February 05, 2024 Share:    Obituary Event & Services Charities & Donations Gallery Videos https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 1/4 �1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory Guestbook Send Flowers Obituary Vernon Leon Jones, 88, of Tulsa, Oklahoma, left this earthly plane to be with his late partner Phil Wiley, on February 5th, 2024. He was born in Oklahoma, on May 3rd, 1935. As a gay man, born and raised here, Vernon’s chosen family is vast. He is survived by Hayward Jones, Nekesha Jones, JaKobe Jones, Sue Davis, Fred Hilliard, Arlowe Clementine, Mason Thomas, Rey Thomas, and so many other individuals that claimed Vernon as their friend, family, and elder. Vernon was an active learner, even in his later years. He was always working to understand the world around him and was eternally hopeful for a better world. He was a strong advocate for marginalized peoples and was particularly committed to Queer and Black Liberation. Vernon was a clear Taurus. He was intelligent, dependable, logical, honest, and generous. Vernon spent most of his life focused on making his community better. He was a holder of receipts. A maker of spreadsheets. A true community historian and archivist. Vernon was dedicated to making people safer, both in his career in emergency management and his activist work in the fight against AIDS. He was not a stranger to controversy and was unrelenting in speaking his truth and the truth of the people he loved. In the years before his death, Vernon worked hard to ensure that the legacy of LGBTQ activism in Tulsa was properly recorded and preserved for current and future generations. His substantial archive is now housed in Oklahoma State University’s Archives. This collection will be witnessed by researchers and community members for years to come. Vernon was a connector. He worked hard to bring people together and was always willing to give someone support that needed it. Even in his death, he is connecting individuals over their shared love and respect for him and his life. Vernon fought hard for his community and the legacy of his late partner Phil Wiley. Anyone who knew Vernon was graced with stories of Phil’s life and legacy as well as their love for one another. In lieu of flowers, we ask that you remember Vernon by learning something new, taking a stand on social issues that are important to you, and keeping his life and legacy alive through storytelling. https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 2/4 �1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory Vernon’s memorial service will take place March 1st at 11 AM at Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home (2103 E 3rd St, Tulsa, OK 74104). ABOUT US “We will always be kind and we will never take advantage of you or your family at your saddest time” is our promise to you. General Price List BUTLER-STUMPFF & DYER FUNERAL HOME & CREMATORY  2103 E 3rd St Tulsa, OK 74104  (918) 587-7000  info@butler-stumpff.com  Available 24/7 https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 3/4 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2007] Vernon Jones Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s interview of Vernon Jones conducted on February 28, 2007. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Vernon was born on May 3, 1935, near Tulsa and passed on February 5, 2024 in Tulsa. He enlisted in the Air Force and served for four years in the military in cryptographic operations, including two years stationed in Japan. After thirteen years of marriage and two daughters, Vernon came out to his wife and family. He and his partner, Phil Wiley, were co-founders of the Tulsa Gay Alliance in 1971, and they volunteered with the Tulsa Suicide Prevention Hotline. He worked in emergency management. In the mid-1970’s. He served on a task force within the Tulsa Human Rights Commission to research consideration of ordinance changes to address LGBT discrimination. Vernon left his archives to Oklahoma State University. A copy of his October 10, 2021, interview as a part of OSU’s Diverse Gender and Sexuality of Oklahoma Oral History Project is included in Vernon’s oral history folder at OkEq. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 28, 2007 Subject The topic of the resource Vernon Jones Oral History Project Interview from February 28, 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Belmonte, Vernon Jones, Lindsey Killebrew, Matthew D. Williams, Dennis Neill 2007 available at Center Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home Butler-Stumpff and Dyer Butler-Stumpff and Dyer Funeral Home Dennis Neill interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Lindsey Killebrew Matthew D. Williams Matthew Williams Obituaries Obituary OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript Vernon Jones Vernon Leon Jones video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Kelly Kirby Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 6, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on May 6, 2006. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Born on November 25, 1953, he graduated from high school in 1971. Faced with a draft number of 25, Kelly joined the Air Force in 1972. While very closeted during his service, while based in California, he would make trips to Santa Barbara and a few other locations to some bars and on occasion attended the Metropolitan Community Church in Santa Barbara as he was dealing with his sexual orientation. After leaving the military in 1975, he returned to Kansas and got involved with a cult Christian Group, The Way. In 1977, he married and they had 4 children. In 1980, they moved to Oklahoma City, he soon started a CPA practice and by 1986 relocated to Tulsa. He joined Homosexuals Anonymous as part of dealing with his conflicts with sexuality, family and religion. In 1990, his wife and Kelly agreed to separate and eventually divorce. He became an HIV tester with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights in 1991 and discusses his further involvement with the gay community and TOHR, serving on the board in the early 1990s and treasurer, president and later serving as TOHR’s accountant. He became active with the local PFLAG Chapter and with the support of Nancy McDonald, joined the national board of PFLAG in 1993. He reviews the difficult environment in the 1993-1994 time period when the Tulsa Human Rights Commission proposed some ordinance changes to address LGBTQ discrimination. Subject The topic of the resource Kelly Kirby Oral History Project Interview from May 6, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kelly Kirby, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 AIDS/HIV Air Force available at Center discrimination HIV HIV testing HIV/AIDs Homosexuals Anonymous interview Kelly Kirby Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Metropolitan Community Church Nancy McDonald OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) PFLAG PFLAG Tulsa Chapter The Way TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights HIV Testing video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Lamont Lindstrom Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 15, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on April 15, 2006. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Lamont was born in Oakland, California on May 11th, 1953. At Berkeley, he completed a BA, MA and PhD in anthropology. Prior to spending a year in Australia on a National Science Foundation fellowship, Lamont married. They later relocated to Memphis for a teaching position and then joined the faculty at the University of Tulsa in 1982. In 1984 and 1985, he worked in Hawaii, returned to Tulsa and his wife and Lamont had 3 daughters. By 1994, he became more focused on his interest in same-sex relations. He has been in a long-term interracial relationship and discusses some of the challenges of segregation within the gay community. In 1996 he became involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, including serving on the board in the 2000s. Subject The topic of the resource Lamont Lindstrom Oral History Project interview from April 15, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lamont Lindstorm, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 available at Center interview Lamont Lindstrom Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript segregation TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/50c75d314ecd3bfe576df8fa1e4a818c.mp4 1cd0a806c5b45b06b12b8f2d5493d4a0 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/f1f040d517ee58dfd79531909e7a503c.pdf c50d91cd143acf3b75830c770059e040 PDF Text Text oklahomans for equality Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Leslie Penrose Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte Date: March 31, 2006 Transcribed By: Matthew Warren Transcript Edited by Dennis Neill - December 27, 2025 Restrictions: Interviewee requested - NIA. Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproiect@okeg.org �LGBT History Project 03/31/2006 Interview of Leslie Penrose by Laura Belmonte Laura: It is Friday, March 31 2006 and we are at the Community of Hope Church with Leslie Penrose for today's interview. Leslie, let's just start with some basic biographical information. When were you born, what was your family and education like and those sorts of things? Leslie: I was born in Amarillo, Texas in 1951 into an oil field family. And I grew up all over the Midwest and lived in almost every state west of the Mississippi. I went to 18 different schools between kindergarten and col lege. Roots are something I long for and moving is something I do well. Although, in my adult life I have lived in Tulsa since 1979 and really do feel like I'm establishing roots here and 2 �that this is home. Although my husband and I have moved to like 5 different houses so we still practice the moving thing. Laura: Did you have any brothers and sisters? Leslie: I did. I had two younger brothers and a younger sister so I was the oldest of four: and they're all still living. My dad is dead but my mother is still living. Laura: And where did you go to college? Leslie: T.U. for my undergrad degree in Religion. I got my Masters of Divinity at Phillips Theological Seminary in Tulsa. Laura: And you mentioned you are married, how long have you been? Leslie: 35 years. I got married 6 months out of high school. He was in the Marine Corps and I moved to California to take up residence on the Camp Pendleton Marine Core base the day after we got married. Laura: Wow. And do you have children? Leslie: I do. I have two. My daughter, Keli, was born there in California after we had been married about two years. And the other one was born on the East coast. We moved back here after Steve's discharge, for him to go to school at OU. From there we moved Richmond, Virginia for Steve's first job, and my son, Kyle, was born there. Laura: Well let's move on to the issues of the gay community and gay people and such. When was the first time you recall hearing anything about the gay community in Tulsa? Leslie: I'm not sure about hearing about the gay community in Tulsa, but I do know when my own sense of awareness of gay issues happened. In the late 70s I was a banker, and not particularly happy with that. I took a trip to Central America to try and figure things out and find out what I wanted to be when I "grew up." The leader of the group I went with was a gay man. 3 �It was a very transforming trip for me and my relationship with him was very transforming. I experienced him in a very pastoral, religious way. I asked him one day why he wasn't a pastor because he just had such a gift for it. He said, "Well I would be except that the church won't let me. I'm gay." It was not anything that I ever consciously 'knew.' I mean, I must have been aware of it on some level but it had never been part of my consciousness that that was where the church was. And it just blew my socks off. I have continued to maintain a relationship with him across the years. But it was actually that experience and my experience in Central America that drove me to seminaryseeking something beyond the shallow experience of 'church' that I had had growing up. Once I was in seminary, that issue and other issues of justice just kept pushing me to the edge, and I'd quit seminary and start it again, thinking, 'I can't do this church thing because it's way too oppressive.' But there was also something within me that came out of that trip to Central America that said, "My experience there says there's a different way of being church, a way that has integrity and is life giving." I wanted to be a part of THAT way of being church. Laura: Talk to me a little bit about your experiences at Phillips. Why did you decide to go there? Leslie: Well I decided to go there because it was the only seminary available to me. I was a young mother with young kids. I needed a local place. They were just opening their campus in Tulsa when I inquired in 1985, and asked if I wanted to be a part of that very first class that met here in Tulsa. I did. Laura: And you found this a kind of conflicted experience? were they saying about issues of social justice and homosexuality that you had to wrestle with? Leslie: You know I don't know if it was what they were saying as much as it was what the gospel was saying. I think actually the school was pretty mainline and kind of scared to enter into the really tough issues. I had, for most of my What 4 �life, been involved in social issues like nucleai disarmament, immigration, and civil rights for African Americans; but as I began to read the gospel and put things together it became clear to me that something was wrong with saying there are some folks that don't fit into the "salvation plan" or however you want to talk about it. The more I challenged that in my own thinking, the more I needed to involve other people in the dialogue. I was the President of the Student Council at Phillips at that time, and actually challenged them to, for the first time, put gay and lesbian issues on the agenda. I asked the Council to attend a board meeting and requested that Phillips might name itself a safe place for gay and lesbian students. It was not at that time - it was more 'don't ask, don't tell.' Folks were pretty threatened by that first dialogue, but it opened the door and they are now a very affirming place for gay and lesbian students. At about the same time, while I was in seminary, I was a part-time youth pastor at Memorial Drive United Methodist Church. I got a call one day from a friend of mine at St. Johns Hospital. She was a nurse, and she said that there was a young man there and he was dying of AIDS. "He hasn't had any visitors here for over a month. Would you mind co.ming?" I knew nothing about AIDS, but I knew someone shouldn't die with no visitors for a month. So I went, and it was a baptism by fire. When I finally got in to see him (after having to put on full protective clothing and gloves, I asked if I could talk with him and he said "Sure. Who are you?" I told him I was a minister, and he responded, "Oh, you don't even need to bother. I already know everything you have to say. My church has already told me I'm going to hell." It just broke my heart, and I said "I don't believe that." He let me stay a few minutes so we could talk, and when I left I asked if I could come back the next day. He said "yes." I was there everyday for about a week until that young man died. During that time I got to meet a couple of his friends who came by because they had heard he was going to die. They said they had been afraid to visit. And from there I was just 'connected.' It was like all of a sudden, a 5 �gate opened and there were a number of people who needed to deal with their spiritual issues relating to HIV and AIDS. Within a few weeks, I had connected with Dr. Jeff Beal and Ted Campbell... and all of a sudden I was like "the chaplain" for Dr. Seal's office. One day Ted Campbell called me and asked me to do some work with his HIV therapy group. "They have some spiritual issues to deal with", he said. So I went. I was there for about an hour, and it was actually a pretty hostile group at first. Not too willing to talk. They had a few nice questions to ask me, but there wasn't a conversation. And then, right before it was time to go, one of the young men, Jim B, looked at me and said, "I have a question for you. So tell me why it is that God would create somebody and then condemn them to hell. Tell me what kind of God does that." The only response I had was "a God who needs to die." Because that was true for me, the God that they were carrying around with them needed to die. So they invited me back and I went back to that group for several months and worked on theological and spiritual issues with them and about their own belovedness in God's eyes. Laura: How did you become aware of the difficulties that LGBT people faced at Phillips? Leslie: I just became aware that there were a couple of lesbian students there that were not out and were not willing to be out and only shared their story with me because I began to break the silence about the issue and ask those kinds of questions. By just becoming known as a 'safe person', several students shared their stories with me. Laura: Did you, yourself, have people assume you were a lesbian? Leslie: Absolutely, all the time. In fact, when I first started The Community of Hope I intentionally took off my wedding ring. I didn't want the straight community relying on the fact that I was straight to make me safe in their religious settings. Because the people I was working with were not safe in religious settings unless they pretended to be straight, I was unwilling for it to be that obvious that I was straight. Wrestling is a good thing for people ... 6 �Laura: You weren't willing to flaunt your heterosexuality? Leslie: Yeah ... I just wasn't willing for someone else to use it. It just made me furious that that's what made me safe. Laura: So what year did you finish seminary and how did your career trajectory go after that? Leslie: I was ordained in 1989 and I was still on staff at Memorial Drive UMC. In 1990 a young gay couple, both of whom were living with AIDS, started coming to that church. And then another couple came, and another, and so on. The church was fairly receptive to the first two: the tokenism thing was okay with them. But when it became 4 and 6 and 8 and a whole pew of young gay men, most of them with AIDS, the church got more threatened. Then in 1992 while I was in Central America leading a mission trip, the church leaders had these secret meetings and when I got back they told me I needed to leave. They were no longer comfortable with my ministry. Well, in the United Methodist Church that's not how it works. The church doesn't decide when you leave, only the bishop can decide that. So the bishop told them, "You don't decide when she leaves. I do. And she will stay until June when it is the normal time for pastors to leave." So between August of '92 and June of '93, I was in this horribly painful situation of serving this church where a significant number of the people did not want me there, but another significant number did. The church began to split and the pastor, Dr George Warren, got threatened. He wrote letters to two of the LGBT members who had already joined - Mark Vickers and Brad Mulholland informing them that they couldn't do things like go into the kitchen because they had AIDS; and they couldn't teach Sunday school; or read Scripture from the chancel area. I was appalled and they were deeply hurt - again. And so I went to the bishop and said, "I understand that I'm going to be moved in June and that's fine, that's the system. But PLEASE put someone in Tulsa who can be a safe place for these people. We've opened the door now and the care 7 �and acceptance that was promised needs to be provided." After some conversation, the Bishop said, "You need to start that congregation." Well, politically at that time, the United Methodist Church would not support my starting a new congregation that was open and affirming. So the Bishop and I put our heads together. He had just been in Central America studying Liberation Theology; and he knew I often went to Central America. We had both experienced the alternative 'churches' being formed there called Base Communities. It was a model, primarily in the Catholic tradition, where people who feel abandoned by the hierarchy in society and the church, formed small, local communities of justice and spirituality where the people are the church. Occasionally a priest may come and offer the sacraments, but the church is the people. The people are doing the work of nurturing spirituality; the people are doing social justice in their communities. The result is that the people began reading the bible in different ways, and questioning traditional theology. A Base Community made sense for Tulsa. And at the United Methodist Annual Conference in June of 1993 the Bishop of Oklahoma commissioned me to begin a Base Community here in Tulsa ... whatever that might mean. Laura: What was this bishop's name? Leslie: Dan Solomon - a very courageous man. He found $12,000 dollars for me to have a part-time salary for a year, and that's how it started: no place to meet, no office, no funds for advertising or supplies. Nothing except a group of people who were willing. I started by going to several different churches to ask for meeting space. Finally, Centenary United Methodist Church on North Denver, agreed to allow us to meet in the evenings in their basement. So on June 21, 1993 we had the very first gathering of Community of Hope. There were about 50 people at that first gathering - half gay and half straight. No children yet, but we had hopes. There had been a group of 12 or 13 people who had been meeting in my living room for two or three months trying 8 �to figure out what we wanted this church to look like. One important piece was that we were diverse in our membership_gay and straight, racially and age diverse. We chose to use a Rainbow candle as our Christ candle in worship - Christ candles are always white. Not ours - not our candle and not our Christ. Another important piece was that we wanted every aspect of our congregational life to bear witness to our valuesespecially to our belief that every single person is a child of God who deserves love and respect. So we decided that for every dollar we spent on ourselves we would also spend a dollar beyond our walls in some way that supported the marginalized. We've done that now for 13 years, supporting a number of social justice activities and organizations locally, nationally, and internationally. We met there at Centenary for about two months until one evening one of their morning members saw one of our member couples kissing in the parking lot. Within a few weeks, they asked us to leave. Next we rented a little life insurance building on the corner of Yale and Pine, and were there for about two and a half years. We outgrew it, and then we rented a warehouse on 2nd and Utica which we completely gutted and remodeled. It was a wonderful space for us, and we had a deeply rich and vibrant time. In early 1998, the City declared we couldn't stay because our zoning wasn't right for being a church. We suspected there was another agenda, but rather than spend time and energy fighting their ruling, we began to look for another building. We were 5 years old and looking for our 4t h home. Laura: It's a good thing you had the experience ... Leslie: That's right, all of my life - move, move, move. We decided to try and buy a building where we didn't have to worry about being kicked out again. We tried to buy three different church buildings but once they discovered who we were, they refused to sell to us. So finally-you 9 �know if there is anything I regret in my ministry I think this is what it is-we bought the building in the closet. We had one of our members buy it and transfer it to us. It was a deeply painful thing and it was fear that drove us to it: fear that we weren't going to have any place to call home. But I almost wish we hadn't done it, because I think it ended up hurting us in subtle but significant ways. I didn't realize that until a year or so later when I looked back at some of the conflict we'd been experiencing. We had never had conflict in our congregational life, but now some people were acting in strangely dysfunctional ways. I believe, looking back, that it was at least in part, because we had gone back into the closet in order to buy that building. Laura: Let's back up for a moment: I would assume some of this got public attention of some sort. When was the first time you remember gaining attention in the media for your outreach in the GLBT community? Leslie: Actually the Tulsa World did a story in probably 1995 and it was very positive about who we were and the outreach we were doing. That was probably the first time we got attention. I got hate mail regularly right from the beginning, and ugly messages on our answering machine. Some people in the neighborhood where we bought the building, filed complaints about us with the police, that we were "disturbing the peace." But we didn't really get much other publicity until in 1999 when I was brought up on ecclesiastical charges by the United Methodist Church. Then there was lots of it, nationally. Laura: When you were interacting with these leasing agents and realtors, had you been cognizant of laws on housing discrimination not including sexual orientation? Leslie: I think I probably had, but it was that na"ive 'it's not impacting me' kind of awareness. Besides, this was a church and it never entered my mind that you would turn down a whole church! It still just blows me away. Laura: The reason I ask is because we probably looked at 20 different spaces when we rented and that was just 2 years ago. �Leslie: And how painful it is! I mean I'm a straight woman, I had never dealt with any of this before and I had no idea of how painful it could be. Laura: Did you have any sort of dialogue within the church about the dissention that the decision to buy, sort of 'undercover,' was causing? Leslie: No, we never had a dialogue about it. I preached about it and I think that in and of itself - giving it voice - did some of the healing we needed. We named what was going on and that helped to heal the wounds: we admitted that we really messed up and we pledged together that we would not do that again. Laura: In relation to your having this sort of ministry, churches don't exist as little islands, when was the first time you recall encountering something from a different religious bent here in Tulsa? Leslie: In 1990, when I was presented for ordination in the United Methodist Church, I was charged by a colleague with heresy. The specific charge was that I didn't believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ as a literal event. But what was behind that charge was the work I was doing with the LGBT community and how threatened people were by that. Terry Ewing who at that time was an associate minister at Will Rogers United Methodist Church was the person who actually filed the charges, saying that I shouldn't be ordained because I didn't honor the ministerial covenant. It was a deeply painful thing to stand alone on the floor of the Annual Conference at Boston Avenue Church, before the 600-plus ministers in Oklahoma, and have them debate whether or not I was appropriate for ministry. But it ended up being a pretty wonderful thing because it did two things: 1) It made me decide how important this particular ministry was to me, and what I really believed about the Gospel. I decided right then and there that if I couldn't do the ministry that I felt called to do, then being ordained was meaningless. I think that decision on the floor of the conference is what got me through later challenges in my ministry that were much more difficult. 11 �So I ended up being grateful for that initial little baptism by fire. The second thing that incident did was to openly challenge the Oklahoma Conference of ministers to deal with what it was going to mean to have diversity in its midst. The vote that day ended up something like 590 to 17. But the really affirming thing happened later that night, at the public ordination ceremony held at Boston Avenue Church with a full sanctuary. When Bishop Solomon ordains someone, he always invites family and others who are there in support of the person being ordained, to stand as he places his hand on their head and ordains them. That night, when he put his hand on my head, almost the entire room stood. The vast majority didn't know or care about me personally, but they cared about diversity. Standing for me was their way of saying 'we are not going to be a church who says no to diversity.' It was a very powerful moment. Laura: Was this coexistent or did it precede debates on LGBT clergy in the church? Leslie: Oh it was right in the middle of it. The Methodist Church has been debating that for years and years and years. Laura: This obviously was going in a different direction. Leslie: Yes, this wasn't about gay clergy but about what restrictions we place on who we minister to. Laura: How about from non-Methodist clergy in Tulsa? Leslie: Totally mixed. It's kind of always been true for me in Tulsa clergy circles that when I walk into a room, the room kind of divides by where they are on this issue and other kinds of liberal issues. There are a lot of times I become sort of a metaphor for liberal religion or social justice issues in many settings. I've just gotten used to that. Laura: Now who would you construe as having been allies in this? Were there others making similar sorts of overtures to the LGBT community as you were? Or were you the trend setter? 12 �Leslie: I think in 1993 there were not many allies in Oklahoma. Community Hope was the first open and affirming, mainline congregation (other than MCC) in Tulsa. There were certainly clergy friends that I had who were sympathetic but they were not out there pushing the envelope. Laura: After 1993, what happened? Leslie: In 1996 the United Methodist Church passed a law saying that Methodist clergy cannot do same-sex blessings and those unions cannot happen in United Methodist churches. Community of Hope had been doing them all along. We would publish them in our newsletter, and put invitations and pictures out publicly. There was no secrecy. When the law passed, we had a congregational meeting and decided that come what may, we were not going to quit. We started an intentional process of asking ourselves, what is our theology of marriage, and how do we justify what we do? That resulted in writing a document that we adopted as our official position, including the commitment that that we would not stop. At about that same time, Bishop Solomon, who had blessed the start up of Community of Hope, moved to another call, and Oklahoma was assigned a new bishop: Bruce Blake. Bishop Blake said immediately and clearly that I must stop performing gay unions. I responded that I can't do that. A kind of 'dance' started then with the Oklahoma Conference. COH continued hosting holy unions and I continued officiating at those services. The conference leadership began asking for print copies or videos of services, and we'd send them. They'd respond, "you can keep doing this part but you can't wear your stole ( official clergy wear) .... Then ... 'you can stand with the couple but you can't bless the rings'.... Then, 'you can't say I announce you as wife and wife' or whatever.... We tried dancing with them for awhile because we really wanted it to work-if they were going to move a little and let us do unions, then we could move a little as well and do them differently. So I quit wearing my stole .... Then I 13 �moved to bless the rings before the ceremony and not during it... etc etc. After months of this dance, with more and more restrictions, it just finally became clear that the process had no integrity. It felt like people were being asked to cut off one of their arms or legs. 'Don't kill yourself,' they were saying, 'just cut off a piece of yourself." I went back to the conference leadership and said 'I just can't do this, and we went back to doing full unions.' For awhile there was nothing but silence from conference leadership. Shortly after that, the strangest thing happened. In 1998 there was a holy union in California that a whole group of clergy did collectively instead of as individual clergy. And they asked clergy across the nation to join them by signing on as 'officiates in abstentia'. So I signed on. Some lay person in Eufaula decided that was unacceptable to him, and he filed official church charges against me for having done a holy union in abstentia in January. Channel 11 here in Tulsa did a report on those charges and as part of their story, they got in touch with a couple for whom I had performed a holy union. The couple proudly and innocently, shared a video of their ceremony with the reporter and that night it was on the news. Within days Bishop Blake filed more charges - not just for signing on in abstenia, but for conducting union ceremonies. The national media picked it up .... and it just got to be this ridiculous mess. Bishop Blake dug in his heels and told me that I had three choices: 1) I could stop doing any unions immediately, or 2) I could go to church trial, or 3) I could give up my ordination and leave the United Methodist denomination. It didn't make any sense to me go to trial: I'm was openly guilty and I didn't plan to quit doing the ceremonies. So why would I want to spend time and energy going through that. More importantly, why would I want to drag Community of Hope through a national spectacle. They were already wounded and weary from months and months of threats and intimidation and harrassment. 14 �Knowing w hat might come, I had done my homework about my options, I immediately began to work with the United Church of Christ to t ra nsfer my ordination. The UMC charges had come on February 4, 1999; I transferred my ordi nation orders on March 4 th 1999. That process required that I return my certificate of ord ination to Bishop Blake, which I did. He actua lly sent it back to me with my dismissal scrawled across it in black marker. Laura: And how did all of t his effect the congregation? Leslie: We lost a hu ge number of people. In mid 1998 we were averaging 90-100 in worship. By March of 1999 attendance had dwindled to about 35. One more time the church had said "you're welcome here" but then stabbed them in the back. It broke my heart. I had been in the Methodist chu rch for 15 years as ordained clergy. I had a lot of relationships th ere ... t here was a lot to let go of... . a lot to grieve. La ura: How did you make the overture to the Un ited Church of Christ and how did the change affect the church? Leslie: It was really interesting. The story I told you about going to Central America and the trip leader who was gay - well, as things were heating up in 1998, he wrote to me and said he had joined the United Church of Christ. "That is where you belong," he said. So I went to talk to Russ Bennett, who was pastor of the on ly UCC church in Tulsa. Russ's imm ediate res ponse was 'Of course you belong here!" That week he drove me to Kingfisher to talk with the UCC Committee on Ministry; and he nurtured me through the process of transferring. Laura: You've experienced a lot more first hand homophobia than a lot of gay people I know! So what sort of outreach and progra mmin g was the church doing? 15 �Leslie: Well, COH held its first worship service in June of 1993. In July, we started feeding the homeless once a month. We'd prepare the food together and then take - ---,,,,= it to the Day Center and serve it. We also started volunteering with the GED program in the jails in July. In August, we took 10 of our "companions" (we don't really use 'member' language) on a mission trip to Nicaragua to build a house in a critically poor community. Those are all things we continue to do, plus we sponsor an apartment for DVIS, had a RAIN team for years, we host 3 different AA/NA meetings in our building; and we volunteer with several other social service and non-profit agencies in Tulsa. But it was our ministry with and to those living and dying with HIV/AIDS that both shaped and defined us. From the beginning we've always been at least 25% HIV infected . The core symbol of Community of Hope was a "brokenmade-whole chalice". It was gifted to us during our formation by Ted Campbell who was an HIV therapist. He had found it in a small pottery shop when he visited what used to be East Germany not too long after the wall came down. It's a chalice that incorporates cracked and broken pieces, and yet, still holds the sacramental wine we use in Holy Communion. It is a vessel that has been wounded, but it's woundedness isn't hidden or a thing of shame; but rather a beautiful and blessed part of the whole. Just like each of us - including, and perhaps ESPECIALLY, those who are living with their dying . That chalice ... and the broken-made-wholeness it represents is integral to who we are. That's why it's so important that we - the community - engage in as many ways of serving others as we can. When we become the vessel of healing and hope to others, we find it brings healing and hope to us. And, we also found that people living with HIV often felt like 'victims' or objects of care. Serving others in mission projects switched those roles - the wounded became the healer and that was incredibly empowering. 16 �Laura: You've mentioned Jeff Beal, When was the first time you really encountered the AIDS epidemic? Was it before your ministry? Leslie: I'm sure I'd heard about it but it wasn't a part of my daily life: and I don't think I knew anything about it or the bigotry around it. Not until that nurse called and I met the young man who was dying alone. Laura: What were some of the things you remember about how the community was reacting? Leslie: There was incredible fear - both IN the gay community and OF the gay community. No one knew how you got it and people were afraid to touch anything that someone with HIV had touched. Families didn't know how to react. It was such a big part of my ministry to go into a hospital room or some other setting, and hold hands, hug, give foot rubs - just TOUCH the person who was being treated as an 'untouchable.' When Community of Hope started, we actually developed a whole series of Rituals of Touch that were about affirming the lives and bodies of people who were living with AIDS. And I often found myself modeling for families who loved their son/brother etc. but were afraid and had no idea how to respond. I would hug the person or give them a back rub and talk with the famjly about the myths surrounding the transmission of HIV. It was also incredibly hard to find nursing homes that would take people with AIDS. Home health care was almost impossible for PWA;s (person's with AIDS). Even funeral homes refused to serve people who had died of AIDS. For a long time, Butler Stumpff was the only home in town that would receive their bodies and serve their families... Lots of the funerals were done at Community of Hope because there was no where else to go. In those early years, I often did 2-3 funerals a week. Laura: So you change denominations and go through this searing experience. Did you get national attention and how would you describe that experience? Leslie: Oh a flash in the pan. Jimmy Creach was another Methodist brought up on charges about the same tim~, 17 �and it was in a couple national papers and theological journals. It felt so insignificant compared to what was happening here in my backyard, that I didn't really pay attention to it. Laura: Talk a little more about the local fires. Leslie: The press was willing to reprint whatever people said and that got pretty nasty. I remember one of the news channels came to do a report here at the church, and we were clearing "Methodist" stuff out of the church. Just kind of joking, I said "What in the world are we going to do with 80 United Methodist hymnals." And, of course, that's the quote they chose to put on the air! I got lots of ugly messages: "how can you call yourself a minister and say that you know the bible?" People put hours of work into trying to convince me that I was wrong. But we also got an equal amount of mail that was supportive. I got one card that said, "I will hold my head a little higher because of you. Thank You." That felt pretty amazing. Laura: Tell me about how the church has changed since all of this happened. Any particularly notable events or members over the years? Leslie: Well one relationship I want to note is Phillips Seminary. COH has several professors and students that are a part of our congregation and Phillips has been such a supportive and wonderful institution for us. Dr. Brandon Scott has written a book called "Re-imagine our World" and the last chapter is about Community of Hope, and in particular his relationship with one young gay man who died of AIDS. I'm really grateful that a straight white male in a powerful position is willing and able to look and say "I was really changed by this young man who people said didn't count and didn't matter." It's been so good and life-giving to spend the last five years pouring my energy into creative, healing ministry and not fighting. Those first 7 or 8 years were spent fighting the institution, or at least defending ourselves from it. And now we are truly dancing with our denominational partner in a mutually supportive way. It is 18 �so nice to be able to use our energy for creative things and not fighting institutions. Laura: How has all of this affected your husband and children? Leslie: It affected my children profoundly. They don't go to church and have never been able to find a faith community they trust. They just have no tolerance for hypocracy and are having a hard time figuring out what religious life means to them. My husband was probably more wounded by the stuff with the United Methodist Church than I was, because he felt so powerless. He couldn't do anything about it. All he could do was stand by my side and watch them hurt me ... and he has enough white male in him (exMarine) that he wants to be the knight in shining armor. I've been able to let go of my anger at them, but he just can't. To this day, every time he hears the whole UMC spiel about Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors, he just boils. I'm not angry anymore, and I'm able to name the gifts I received from my time with the Methodists. I had some wonderful years as a Methodist and COH never would have happened without them. But it's been hard for Steve. Laura: There's been a vocal and organized LGBT community for quite awhile in Tulsa, but that hasn't translated to big political names despite the city's size. Why do you suspect that is the case? Leslie: First of all I've seen lots of incredible changes. In 1993 when Community of Hope opened there was nothing for the gay community besides bars. Even like the pride store was inside a bar! The group at TOHR didn't have a home: there were just bars. I'm really grateful that it has become so much more mainstream in Tulsa. As for why, I think it's the same reason Tulsa hasn't progressed more with issues of racism and poverty. I think middle and upper class privilege affects us in ways that keep us from really dealing with issues of marginalization in the longterm way that we need to. We engage in the struggle for a little while, but if change doesn't happen quickly, we have other things to do-we have busy lives and enough privilege that we can move on. 19 �Laura: How has the gay community and the community at large supported you over the years? Can you give me some examples of that? Leslie: Well Nancy McDonald has always been very supportive, financially and in all other ways. People like Marcus Rice, who works at Williams, and Dennis Neill are there to be supportive and let you know that they are behind you. Laura: Is there anything else you'd like to add? If not, I appreciate your time. Leslie: Well I appreciate yours. And I appreciate the gift of the journey. Transcribed by Matthew Warren E~ited by Leslie Penrose, Dec 2026 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Leslie Penrose Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 31, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on March 31, 2006. Born in Amarillo, Texas in 1951, Leslie graduated from the University of Tulsa with a degree in Religion and then a Masters of Divinity at Phillips Theological Seminary in Tulsa. She discusses her marriage, children and work in the LGBTQ+ community as a faith leader and early outreach to those impacted by HIV/AIDS. With the Methodist Bishop’s support, in 1993 she founded the Community of Hope when church leaders at her mainstream church became uncomfortable with her AIDS outreach. Facing continued pressure from the denomination, in 1999 she transferred her ordination to United Church of Christ to continue her ministry to the LGBTQ+ community and support for those living with HIV/AIDS. Subject The topic of the resource Leslie Penrose Oral History Project Interview from March 31, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leslie Penrose, Laura Belmonte, Matthew Warren, Dennis Neill 2006 AIDS AIDS/HIV Community of Hope HIV HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Leslie Penrose OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Phillips Theological Seminary transcript TU United Church of Christ University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Terry Luce Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 27, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 27, 2006. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Terry was born in New Jersey in 1933. Served in the 10 military and was in South Korea toward the end of the war. He attended Texas Christian University in Ft. Worth, the University of Maryland and then came to Tulsa in 1968 to join the faculty of the University of Tulsa teaching psychology where he stayed until his retirement in 2005. He became an anti-war activist. In 1976 was asked by then mayor Robert LaFortune to head a task force of the Human Rights Commission exploring if gay people should be protected by city ordinances from discrimination in housing, employment, etc. The one-year study and survey was a ground-breaking effort and received local and national coverage when the report was presented to the Human Rights Commission. With the election of Jim Inhofe in 1978, the work of the Sexual Orientation Taskforce and its recommendations where shelved. In 1993, another committee under the Tulsa Human Rights Commission was formed to add to the work from the 1970s. Attorney Bil Hinkle, co-chair of the committee [Dennis Neill served as the other co-chair] asked Terry to join the new effort, which he did. He discussed the strong negative reaction to the report at the public meetings when it was released. Married to Nancy Moran, Terry was diagnosed with cancer in 2007. He died on November 4, 2020, in Tulsa. Subject The topic of the resource Terry Luce Oral History Project Interview from January 27, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Terry Luce, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 anti-discrimination laws Attorney Bil Hinkle available at Center Bil Hinkle Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill discrimination bans Human Rights Commission interview Jim Inhofe Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Nancy Moran OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Robert LaFortune Sexual Orientation Task Force Terry Luce Texas Christian University transcript TU Tulsa Human Rights Commission University of Maryland University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Jack Waggoner Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 3, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on December 3, 2005. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Born in Western Kansas in 1936, Jack graduated from Pawnee Rock High School and then joined the Navy in 1954. He attended University of Kansas and began his professional career in Kansas City, Missouri and became involved in the gay community. Upon moving to Tulsa, he became an interstate truck driver. In the interview, he discusses the various gay bars, his eleven year relationship with a bartender and other activities and interactions in the Tulsa gay community. Subject The topic of the resource Jack Waggoner Oral History Project Interview from December 3, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jack Waggoner, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2003 available at Center bar life gay bar Gay Bars interview Jack Waggoner Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript University of Kansas video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Janie Reeves Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s interview with Janie Reeves on November 19, 2005. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Janie was born in Denver in 1971. She attended the University of Tulsa and became involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, the predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality. She served as board president in 1991. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 19, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Janie Reeves Oral History Project Interview from November 19, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janie Reeves, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center Board President Janie Reeves Dennis Neill interview Janie Reeves Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript TU Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Bill Bissey Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s November 19, 2025, interview. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Bill was born on July 6, 1932, in Clay County, Illinois and passed on April 10, 2019, in Tulsa. He served in the Air Force and moved with his Tulsa-born wife from Illinois to Tulsa in 1956. Following a divorce, he moved to Houston for his job and entered an eighteen-year relationship until his partner developed HIV and died in 1996. When he returned to Tulsa, he was active with the Prime Timers, the social organization for gay and bisexual men. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 18, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bill Bissey, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center Bill Bissey HIV HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Prime Timers Primetimers transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Trish Spurgin Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 18, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on November 18, 2005. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Trish was born in Tulsa in 1941. [Editor’s note – full name was Agnes Patricia “Trish” Spurgin. She passed away in Tulsa on June 27, 2021.] She attended Western College for Women in Oxford, Ohio. In 1959, she experienced her first same- sex relationship while in college. She returned to Tulsa and attended the University of Tulsa. Trish worked in accounting and collections. Regarding the Tulsa lesbian scene, she discussed the bar life, social activities and the frequent police harassment. She discussed her interactions with her gay brother and observations about lesbians and gay men and her exposure to Tulsa Oklahomans for Equality. Subject The topic of the resource Trish Spurgin Oral History Interview from November 18, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Trish Spurgin, Laura Belmonte, Jensen Bridges, Matthew D. Williams, Dennis Neill 2005 Agnes Patricia "Trish" Spurgin Agnes Patricia Spurgin Agnes Patricia Trish Spurgin available at Center Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill interview Jensen Bridges Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte lesbian Matthew D. Williams Matthew Williams OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript police harassment TOHR transcript Trish Spurgin TU Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Tulsa video Western College for Women in Oxford Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Murrel Wilmoth Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 22, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on October 22, 2005 (Laura misspeaks at the beginning of the interview and says it is the 21st). Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Murrel was born on April 4, 1932, in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. At the age of four, his family moved to Tulsa, graduated from Daniel Webster High School and attended Oklahoma A&M (now Oklahoma State University) for 2 years and then joined the Coast Guard for four years, serving in California. He completed his degree at OSU, then returned to California for seven years before coming back to Tulsa in 1965, after which he started his coming out process. Murrel worked in the Tulsa Planning Commission office, became involved with the Metropolitan Community Church and Prime Timers, an organization for older gay men. He discussed his network of friends and the “don’t ask, don’t tell” environment in Tulsa in the 1970s, 1980s. At age 92, Murrel passed away on February 25, 2025, in Tulsa. His obituary is included in an addendum to his transcript. Subject The topic of the resource Murrel Wilmoth Oral History Project Interview from October 21, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Murrel Wilmoth, Laura Belmonte, Jensen Bridges, Matthew D. Williams, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill interview Jensen Bridges Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Matthew D. Williams Matthew Williams Metropolitan Community Church Murrel Wilmoth Obituaries Obituary OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU Prime Timers Primetimers transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Tay Clare Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 13, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on April 13, 2005. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Tay was born on September 5, 1932. She lived in New York City until her father’s work at American Airlines resulted in a transfer to Tulsa in 1950. Soon upon arriving in Tulsa, Tay attended the University of Tulsa. She described herself as a cultural and social lesbian more so than a sexual lesbian. She discussed the lesbian scene in Tulsa, the bars, sports, relationships and social activities. Also, the various efforts in the 1970s to form LGBT organizations and the Human Rights Commission’s survey and report on sexual preferences and the need for anti-discrimination protections. Tay was one of the organizers of the first Metropolitan Community Church which began by meeting in her home. She discussed Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, including some of her concerns about their focus and training issues around the information line. Tay passed in the 2020s in Tulsa. Subject The topic of the resource Tay Clare Oral History Project Interview from April 13, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tay Clare, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 anti-discrimination laws available at Center Human Rights Commission interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte lesbian Metropolitan Community Church OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Tay Clare TOHR transcript TU Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Bob Cisar and Kirk Holt Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte April 9, 2005. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Bob Cisar was born on February 18, 1942, and grew up in Oklahoma City. Married and then divorced, Bob served in the army as a surgical nurse in Vietnam during the war. In the interview, Bob discusses his career and social experiences in Tulsa, and early involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights and Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. With his partner of twenty-one years, Kirk Holt, was a well-known interior designer until his death on March 10, 2006. Kirk Holt was born on July 2, 1961, in Oklahoma City. He graduated in 1983 from Oklahoma State University with a degree in interior design. Together, Kirk and Bob ran a successful interior design studio and retail operation. Before his passing, Bob worked with Kirk in helping design the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center prior to the 2007 move-in. Kirk lead the design effort in 2017 when the Center underwent a major re-design and served for several years on the Board of Trustees for Oklahomans for Equality. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 9, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Bob Cisar and Kirk Holt Oral History Project Interview from April 9, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bob Cisar, Kirk Holt, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center Bob Cisar Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Equality Center Opening interview Kirk Holt Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OHR OkEq OKEQ Board OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Equality Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) Oklahomans for Equality Board Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Glenna Cooper Interview Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 31, 2005. Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. In the inteview, Glenna discusses the challenges facing the deaf community and their interactions with the LGBTQ+ community. No tape, done on computer. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 31, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Glenna Cooper Oral History Project Interview from January 31, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Glenna Cooper, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center deaf community Glenna Cooper interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Ken Youngblood Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 22, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on August 22, 2004. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Ken was born November 22, 1949, in Vinita, Oklahoma. From sixth grade through high school, he played the piano and organ at the local Baptist Church. He attended high school in Jay, Oklahoma, married in 1971, went to Northeastern State University in Tahlequah, Oklahoma and obtained a degree in Music. He divorced in 1973 and came out soon after. Ken attended graduate school at the University of Oklahoma in Norman. In 1975, Ken moved to Tulsa and attended a hairstyling school and later opened a flower shop after working in the floral department of a local grocery. Ken discussed his early experiences in the gay scene in Tulsa and his first drag appearances, including participating in the Follies fundraiser for Oklahomans for Human Rights. In 1994, the well-known Tulsa artist Pat Gordon asked Ken to model in drag as part of a series of such works over the next few years. He discussed his awareness of AIDS and its impact in Tulsa and his volunteer work with the helpline maintained by Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. In 1992, Ken and his long-time partner had a well- known “wedding” attended by some 300 gay and straight people. Subject The topic of the resource Ken Youngblood Oral History Project Interview from August 22, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ken Youngblood, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center follies HIV/AIDs interview Ken Youngblood Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Northeastern State University Northeastern State University (NSU) NSU OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OU Pat Gordon TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Oklahoma University of Oklahoma (OU) video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/3f257b237fcb28eacc3a53644888ae6c.mp4 b7854c07569e72010538c04ee38ad435 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/dc8193d4ab8cf0eb7f5c31a11315bcfe.pdf a2e2ac0ad4e26f5a886e10f91d43280c PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Anna Dodwell Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte August 1, 2004 OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Edmon Low Library ● Oklahoma State University ©2004 �OKEQ Oral History Project Interview History Interviewer: Laura Belmonte Transcriber: Allison Richmond Editors: Anika Benthem The recording and transcript of this interview were processed at the Oklahoma State University Library in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Project Detail The OKEQ Oral History Project is a series of interviews documenting the rich contributions of LGBTQ community members in the state of Oklahoma, with a particular emphasis on Tulsa and the surrounding area. These interviews were conducted by members of Oklahomans for Equality, formerly Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Legal Status Scholarly use of the recordings and transcripts of the interview with Anna Dodwell is unrestricted. The interview agreement was signed on August 1, 2004. 2 �OKEQ Oral History Project Anna Dodwell Oral History Interview Interviewed by Laura Belmonte August 1, 2004 Tulsa, Oklahoma Belmonte It is Sunday, August 1, 2004, and I’m Laura Belmonte. We are interviewing Anna Dodwell today at my home. Anna, we begin with some really basic stuff. Just tell us your full name and where and when you were born. Dodwell Okay. Anna Dodwell, I was born here in Tulsa, Oklahoma, September 7, 1963. Belmonte Have you lived here your whole life? Dodwell Yes. Belmonte Okay. Tell us a little bit about your childhood and your family background. Dodwell Well, I went to Eisenhower Elementary School and grew up with lots of kids in my neighborhood. We played, and they teased me, and I teased them, and it was just kind of a fairly normal childhood. My father was a plumber, and my mother was the manager of a restaurant for many, many years. I went to Edison Junior High and High School. Went to school with one star, Jeanne Tripplehorn; she’s been in a few movies. Went to—I’ve known her since elementary school. Just had a lot of childhood—close childhood friends. Nothing really significant. I was in Camp Fire for twenty-six years, so it was very special to me. Belmonte Any brothers and sisters? Dodwell I have an older brother and I have—actually three older brothers who are all half-brothers, and then I have a sister, and that’s it. Belmonte That sounds like enough. Dodwell Yeah. Belmonte How have you classified your sexual identity for most of your adult life? 3 �Dodwell To begin with, when I was in high school or even junior high, I knew there was something different, and I didn’t know what it was. I knew that whatever it was, it was strange. I shouldn’t have to like girls. Why should I—why am I liking this? I tried to go with society and decided that I knew that I was a lesbian, but there really wasn’t a name for it. There was no support, zero support, for any teenager, or any adults for that matter, as far as coming out or anything like that. We just kind of tried to do what society says to do. I had a son, and I tried to say, “Well, this is it. This is where I’m supposed to be,” but I was miserable. Belmonte How long have you been out to yourself? Dodwell To myself, I’ve been out probably since I was nineteen or twenty. Belmonte When did you have your first same-sex sexual experience? Dodwell When I was about nineteen, I think, nineteen or twenty, yeah. Belmonte How did you find this woman? Did you meet through a mutual friend? Dodwell In a bar. Belmonte Do you remember what bar? Dodwell Seeker’s Choice. Belmonte Where was that? Do you remember anything about it? Dodwell I don’t remember… Belmonte Terry remembers. (Laughter) Dodwell It was on Admiral, yes. I don’t remember exactly where, but yeah, I picked someone up—well, I guess she picked me up. It was in a little, tiny strip mall. Belmonte Was it predominantly a women’s bar? Dodwell I think so, yeah. That’s all I ever saw in there, really, was women. It was—I do know it was owned by a transgendered man. Belmonte Oh really? Is he still alive? Still live in Tulsa? Dodwell I don’t know. 4 �Belmonte Did you go to this bar again? Dodwell I went occasionally, but the woman was really scary, and I didn’t want to see her anymore. (Laughter) Belmonte We’ve never heard that story. (Laughter) Dodwell She had whips hanging from her wall, and I really didn’t like that. Terry Scared you to death. (Laughs) Belmonte I could see why. Living in Tulsa your whole life, when do you recall having met a gay person for the first time? Dodwell I knew that my nephew was coming out, and he would talk about how gay he was when Rocky Horror was really big. We’d go to Rocky Horror all the time. He was kind of the first gay person that I really was around. He used to correct his lisping in front of the mirror and all that kind of stuff. Other than that, he just—he was about the only person that I can think of; everybody else I knew was straight. Belmonte You heard of Seeker’s Choice how? Do you recall when you first began to hear about places where gay people went in Tulsa? What were some of those places other than Seeker’s Choice? Dodwell I believe I called the helpline. I think I called the helpline to find that out. I either did that or I looked in the phonebook, but I think it was the helpline. I can’t recall exactly how that came about, but I know they gave me two or three different choices of bars that I could go to. Gosh, that was ’83. Belmonte That would have narrowly ended the helplines if— Dodwell Yeah. (Laughs) That’s kind of when I got involved with the community. Belmonte Well, what were some of the other places that you met gay men and women after going to Seeker’s Choice? Dodwell The only places that I knew were bars, really. Zipper’s, I grew up in Zipper’s. Belmonte Tell me what Zipper’s was like for women. I’ve heard a lot of men talk about Zipper’s. Dodwell It was okay. I mean, there were several women there. They did have a few drag king shows there. It was kind of far and few between, but it did happen. There were so many young people and so many underage people there, but 5 �for women, there was like a—if I remember right, it was an area that was— you’d walk into the bar, you’d go up these steps and to the left; it was like almost all women. Anywhere else in the bar they were just scattered here and there; they weren’t grouped in certain areas, but one area I always knew that they were. Belmonte Where else besides Zipper’s? Dodwell TNT’s. Belmonte Do you remember what TNT’s was like at the time? Dodwell I think it was a little rougher than—well, of course—than it is now. Belmonte It’s straight now. Dodwell I know. I think they’re trying to keep it gay, but it’s not happening. Oh, Tracy’s. Yes, I went to Tracy’s too. I don’t remember where that one was— off of Utica. I didn’t go to Tracy’s very often. Have you ever been to Tracy’s? Belmonte This is the first time I’m hearing about Tracy’s. Tracy’s and Seeker’s Choice. Dodwell Tracy’s was a nicer bar—well, much nicer than Seeker’s Choice, I think it was. Belmonte You said Seeker’s Choice was off Admiral. Dodwell Yes. Went there, not a whole lot, but went there now and then. Then I started going to Zipper’s a lot, went to Zipper’s all the time whenever it was in its glory. Belmonte Over at 31st and Yale. Dodwell Yes. Oh yeah. I remember all the car bashings and the people that would be standing outside when the bar would close, and they would have baseball bats in their hands and, you know. Belmonte Tell me more about that. I’ve heard that policemen would take down names of license plates, but I hadn’t heard what you’re enumerating here. Dodwell Yeah, because there’s a lot of apartments that are around there, and there’s probably four or five different apartments. If you would leave the bar— mostly for the guys, you know, they would leave. They would just stand there; it was like an intimidation thing. Either they had already bashed their 6 �car, or they were just wanted to stand there just to make sure that they were afraid, I guess. It was frightening. They would yell at you from the balconies and tell you—call you names and things like that. There, for a while, Zipper’s started losing some business because people were afraid to go. Belmonte Do you recall any instances where people and not just property were harmed? Dodwell I know that there were some fist fights and things like this, like some of the queens would come out and be drunk, and they would say something, and they would just start just fist fighting. That’s the only thing I saw myself. I know the police were called a lot. Of course, police came inside the bar all the time. They would just look at you, and they would harass you, they’d ask for your license. It was a really big deal. They did harass a lot. Belmonte Now, in your circle of friends, what did you and your lesbian and gay friends do outside of bars? Dodwell Went to each other’s houses, had parties. We didn’t really do a whole lot as, actually, as a group. We’d go out to eat sometimes, and sometimes we’d go to a movie or something, but no real planned activities. Of course, I was young. My gosh, I was a baby, so it was party all the time. That’s all I wanted to do. Belmonte You made a comparison of Tracy’s and Seeker’s Choice and said that Tracy’s was nicer. Tell me more about this bar—this is the first time I’ve heard about Tracy’s. Dodwell The clientele I think was a little nicer as far as—it wasn’t as rough of a crowd; at least I don’t think it was. Belmonte Mainly women? Dodwell Yes. Well, actually, there were half and half at Tracy’s. At Seeker’s Choice, it was a lot of women. A lot of—well, I remember older women without teeth, but (Laughter) I don’t know if that’s something to write about. (Laughter) Belmonte Oh yeah. Terry They had split clientele. [Inaudible] Older women, it’s like there’s this real age gap. [Inaudible] Belmonte It’s my impression, and you can correct me if you think this is wrong, that a pretty hardcore butch femme culture in the bars in Tulsa persisted pretty long past when it did in other places. In many cities, Buffalo, New York, for 7 �instance, this began to disappear by the late ’60s. It sounds to me like that culture was still in place in Tulsa pretty late into the ’80s. Dodwell Definitely. I know some people who are still stuck in that, so it’s— Oklahoma is really backwards with that. They’re catching up to the things in different cities with things like that. Belmonte Did you witness a lot of violence in these bars? Fights? Dodwell A few, yeah. A lot of jealous butch girlfriends, that somebody would look at their girl, and they’d go after them and try to be the man of the house and do whatever they needed to do to take care of that. I saw a few fights, mostly alcohol-induced. Belmonte How did this physically manifest itself? Were there very rigid codes of what you would wear or not wear or how you would act, or was it more of a kind of attitude sort of thing? Dodwell Yes, there was. I was told when I was first starting to go out—it jarred my memory; this is great—that if you had any amount of sized breasts, you know, like mine, if you had them, you were not a lesbian. (Laughs) I was told that many times. Belmonte By whom? Dodwell By butch women, the older butch women, mostly, saying that’s just not right. “You just can’t just have big boobs and be okay and be with us. You’re not one of us.” I’ve heard that many times. Things like if—I remember I used to have this smock thing or whatever, and it had some pink in it. I don’t classify myself as butch or femme; I can do either one, and I’ve always been like that. That was not—that was an issue with some people. “Pick one, what are you going to be? Butch or femme?” I can’t be butch because I have boobs. Okay, maybe I can be femme, but I have to wear a dress, and I don’t like dresses. I would wear this smock thing, and they would tell me that if you’re trying to be butch, it’s not going to work because you have a pink flower on this. It’s not going to work. Belmonte How did you find a middle ground here? It must have been personally quite challenging, really not feeling like you fit into either category here. Dodwell I always thought labels were silly and stupid, so I don’t know. I’ve always just been myself and said, “Okay, this is what you get, and if you don’t like it, then you can go away.” A lot of people went away, especially back then. If you didn’t do a lot of partying and a lot of drugs, and if you didn’t fit into this particular group of gay culture, or if you weren’t the butch or the femme, where did you go? A lot of times I didn’t go. I also went to Crash 8 �Landing, which I loved Crash Landing. It was on 5th and Lewis, and it had a real airplane inside. Belmonte It’s amazing you guys didn’t meet each other sooner. (Laughter) Terry We have friends in all of the same circles, and we knew a lot of the same people, which is really ironic that we had never met. Belmonte Small world. Dodwell The Crash Landing was a combination bar. Have you heard of that one? Belmonte No. Dodwell Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, they had every—I don’t know if it was every month or every other week, but it was like a women’s dance they would have. The person you get lots of history from for that, all the bar stuff, is Ms. Carol Brown. I think maybe Renee, hopefully you know Renee. She would be a wealth of information for you. Belmonte Great. At the end of the taping, I would love it if you guys give me some names of people you think might be potential interviewees. That would be great. Dodwell You got it. Crash Landing did have a lot of—it was a neat bar; it was a really big place. It was high energy dance stuff, whatever it was back then. Terry It was three stories. Belmonte Quite substantial. Dodwell Isn’t it a church now? I know they tore it down, maybe it was a parking lot of a church. Terry There was a bar on every level, and it was just a really cool place. They had the most irritating final song I have heard in my whole life. Do you remember it? It can get people out of the bars. They put [inaudible] constantly. It said, “Bye bye, see you later. Bye bye, see you later. Bye bye, see later.” It would drive you out of the bar. Belmonte I suppose that was its intent. (Laughter) Terry Yeah, probably. Belmonte Was Crash Landing a mixed bar too? 9 �Dodwell I think so. Yeah, mostly. Except when they had the women’s dances. Belmonte What were these women’s dances like? Dodwell Popular. Belmonte Can you estimate how many people would go? Dodwell I don’t know. I would say fifty maybe. It was a lot for back then, and it was—there were just quite a few. Belmonte When would this have been? Dodwell This would have been ’82 to ’86, probably. Two, three year period there, but it was a very popular bar. Belmonte What were the atmosphere of these dances like? Dodwell Pretty—I think they were pretty light, and real fun. People didn’t seem like they had the barriers like a lot of people in our community have today. It’s like they were maybe more trusting, or maybe more accepting, or something like that that was—it was okay to go into this place by yourself, and people would talk to you, you know, things like that. Now it’s a little different. There’s— Belmonte A different spin on it. Now, in conjunction with this butch femme roles, do you recall that there were sexual expectations that went with that too? Like if you were butch, there were certain things that you did and didn’t do and vice versa? Dodwell I think so. Yeah. The butch was the more aggressor sexually, even romantically. The femme was more the little wifey kind of thing, just kind of went along with everything that the butch wanted to do. That’s what I saw. I don’t know if it’s the same now or not. Belmonte Let’s say you wanted to go on a nice date that wasn’t at a bar. Were there any restaurants or places in town that were known as gay-friendly? Dodwell Absolutely not, no. Just your own home. Belmonte In your circle of friends, let’s talk about some of their experiences you might remember. Do you remember—well, let’s start with your own family. When did you come out to your own family, and how did they respond? Dodwell My father died before I could come out, but my mother—I came out after I had my son to her, and I had my son at nineteen. I came out to her after that, 10 �and it was really difficult for her at first, especially. She was very angry. Then it got better. She hated my first girlfriend with a passion. She just started getting better with everything. She just started understanding a little more, and then my nephew came out to her. My nephew was a drag queen, and he was very flamboyant. I think he lives in Dallas now, but she would help him get ready for drag shows, and she started wanting to do things. If PFLAG [Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] would have been available or there back then, my mother would have been right in the trenches with that. I know she would have. She slowly learned that we’re people, too, and it’s okay that I love somebody of the same sex, but it’s not about sex. My mom would—even before my mother died at a nursing home, and we were talking to the whole staff about things, my mom would say, “If you have a problem with lesbians, you need to tell me now because my daughter is one.” She’d out me all the time, but I took her to see Boy George; I took her to see The Village People. She went to one gay pride picnic. I think—so she was okay with it later on. Belmonte Sounds like she was more than okay with it. Do you recall other parents being at that picnic or was she the only one? Dodwell She was pretty—I think she was pretty much the only one. That’s when it was at Mohawk Park. Oh my gosh, she just loved it. She used to love the gay boys, oh my gosh. She came a long way from when I first told her. She always was afraid for me being beat up and things like this; she didn’t want that to ever happen. The rest of my family—my brother, my oldest brother, doesn’t—he has an issue with gay people, mainly because of my nephew. My nephew is just, “I’m in your face. I’m gay. Deal with it.” He’d been out for years, and it just kind of turned him off, so I can’t really blame him for that, I guess. The rest of my siblings—they know that my sister has a problem with it kind of, so it’s—I don’t have anybody really with open arms in my family. Of course, on my dad’s side, they’re all from Arkansas, so I mean, they don’t even want to talk to me. You know, that’s their loss. Belmonte What about your son? Dodwell My son is okay with it now. Belmonte Well, I mean, you must have had to come out to him pretty early in his life, I would guess. Dodwell Yeah, I did. Actually, it was more like fourteen when we talked about it. He was okay with that, too. He just wants me to be—he said, “I just want you to be loved, and I want you to be cared for and not be hurt.” That’s kind of what he looks at. He doesn’t really talk about it a whole lot; he’s a very funny kid. He’ll—he used to—oh my gosh, he used to borrow my car or my ex’s car, and he’d get in it, and he’d come back, and all the stickers would 11 �be taken off of the car. (Laughter) He’s like, “I don’t want to ride in your car; people are going to think I’m gay.” (Laughs) It’s like, “Fine, then meet me there.” He’s twenty-one now, so he’s a grown man. He’s doing his thing. I recently went through a divorce, a break-up, and he dealt with that okay, and you know, he’s still working on that, but he’s just—I think he accepts me. He just wants to make sure I’m safe. I’m okay. I’m happy. Belmonte You mentioned that you work for Sears. How long have you been with Sears? Dodwell I have been with Sears since January. They have the GALS program there; it’s the Gays and Lesbians of Sears. They also have the domestic partnership benefits. They’ve got diversity days. [Inaudible] (Laughs) Belmonte She’s not in the frame here. You have to wonder who she is. Dodwell Yeah, we have diversity days, and that’s toward the end of this month, where I guess we come up with activities or things to celebrate [inaudible]. Belmonte Now, have you encountered discrimination on any of your other jobs? Have you ever encountered harassment yourself in coming out of a bar? Tell me about some of that. Dodwell Coming out of a bar, no, I haven’t really. I’ve just witnessed other people having problems. I did at Woodland Hills Mall one time, when—let’s see, it was probably ’84—when I was with this other girl that—we were walking in the mall, and all of the sudden, all of these kids from, I guess, Broken Arrow or Bixby High School, whatever, they followed us out and started shoving us around and everything, calling us, you know, “you dyke,” and “you this,” and “you that.” That’s about the only negative thing, really. I mean, I’ve had people scream at me and say things, but not real bad. Of course, it’s gotten a lot better over the years, but I can’t think of anything else other than what happened at Woodland Hills; that was kind of scary. Belmonte Let’s talk about your jobs. Dodwell My jobs. I worked at the Tulsa Police Department; that was a real fun thing. I was an animal control officer in a man’s world, so I had to prove myself. I got lots of comments about being gay. “Where’s the lesbian in the house?” There would be a lot of comments. Through the police department, you had no protection, not back then you didn’t. Maybe they do now, I don’t know. I kind of doubt it. There were just—mostly the comments, they would—there was one time in my mailbox, they had shoved a tie in there, a man’s tie, and boxers, and things like that. That’s when I first started working there. Belmonte When was that? 12 �Dodwell From—let’s see, I quit in ’89, so I worked there four or five years. It was during that time, ’83. That was probably the worst of it. A lot of times I would get harassed by my boss, actually, at a part-time job that I had at a supermarket. He found out that I was a lesbian, and he was just all for finding somebody else to help him out. “Come on, let’s go and have a big ole three-way party.” Oh my god, I hate that place. Oh, god. That was awful. No, no, no. I don’t [inaudible] you. Okay? It just doesn’t happen. Belmonte Being a lesbian is not a package deal, sorry. Dodwell No, it’s not. (Laughter) Belmonte In your circle of friends, I’ve been told, for instance, that there was a man in the community who was pretty well-known in the bars who was murdered in Mohawk Park, and the crime went unsolved. Do you recall hearing anything about that case or anything else along that nature? Dodwell I had heard about it, and I—but I don’t know any of the details. I just knew that it happened, but I really don’t know anything. Belmonte Tell me about what some of your gay male friends had to say about their lives in this period. Where, for instance, did they go if they were looking for a sexual encounter? What were some of the bars that were— Dodwell Tim’s Playroom was big. A lot of their experiences as far as—just in the general Tulsa area, I guess—violence, a lot of violence, what I’ve heard. A lot of loneliness because really the only place to go to meet other people were at the bars at the time. If you didn’t drink, or you didn’t like to go to the bars, then you were out of luck for the most part. I know that they went to Turkey Mountain quite a bit. I don’t know if they went back in the ’80s, but I can’t recall [inaudible]. That was just for just like sex, nothing more than that. There might have been a few little groups that popped up here and there. There was a men’s supper club that went on forever. Belmonte Do you remember any of the men who were a part of that group? Dodwell Dennis Neill, I believe, knew about it or was a part of it. Belmonte I’ll have to ask him about that. Dodwell Yeah, see if he knows something. Belmonte What about “the fruit loop” in downtown? Did they ever talk about that? 13 �Dodwell I’ve heard of the fruit loop. I don’t know that very well. I don’t know of that. That might have been maybe before my time. I don’t know. Belmonte It sounds like that went pretty far back. Dodwell Yeah, it did, but I have heard about it. Belmonte You mentioned the gay picnic. Did you go to any of the meetings of TOHR when it was first founded? Dodwell Oh yeah. Belmonte Tell me about what made you do that, and what those meetings were like, and whether you found that a positive experience? Dodwell Yeah, I started with TOHR, I want to say ’84, ’85. It was founded in ’83, right? Belmonte Right. Dodwell It was already going by then. Mostly men. I think my first meeting I ever went to—that’s when I first met Dennis Neill—was that I was the only woman there. For the most part, I felt accepted, but it was definitely lacking females. (Laughs) They just weren’t there. Either they didn’t know about it or what, or maybe they didn’t feel welcome. Belmonte Were they still meeting in the library at this point? Dodwell Yes. They were meeting at the library. I had talked to Dennis about, “Gosh, we can do this or do that,” or “Gosh, we…” He’s like, “Well, come on aboard!” so I started getting involved with that about a year later. Belmonte What were some of the things you did? Dodwell I was the helpline coordinator, and that’s when we moved and got the office space at 41st and Harvard. I did that for four years, three or four years. Belmonte Describe that experience. What were the calls like, what kind of training went into— Dodwell Oh my gosh, there was a lot of training that was involved. There was tons of volunteers. There were people knocking at the door to volunteer. Belmonte What types of professions were people in? 14 �Dodwell Doctors, lawyers, laymen, I mean, just anything. All kinds of people. We had chefs, and we had counselors; we had unemployed. We had lots of different walks of life, and that’s what’s needed for that kind of thing. We had people who had never done a helpline or anything like that, and so when they would come aboard, they would be terrified. What happens if they get a phone call and somebody is wanting to commit suicide or wanting to do this—and which we had those calls, and we had to talk people either out of it or try to get help to them as soon as possible. It was a lot of trading involved. The phones rang off the hook. It was constantly busy, especially in the evening because people in the community found out that we started having the helpline from eight to ten every night. Oh my gosh, it was just incredible. Belmonte What were some of the more memorable calls you had? Dodwell I had a phone call from a man—actually a straight man who felt that he was a woman. Back then, transgenderism was just not really talked about a whole lot; there was not a lot of education on it. We had books and brochures but not a whole lot of experience with it. He was—I was on the phone with this man for over an hour. He was—didn’t know where to go, how he was going to fit in, and trying to find the resources to help this person was almost impossible. The nearest resource I had was Dallas. While I had him on the phone, I start looking at different resources that we had from different states that surrounded us, and the nearest one I had was Dallas. I remember this guy because he called back, and about two weeks later, he called these other people and said he was better, and he felt much better about the situation, and he was happy and that he might be on the road to recovery for whatever reason. We’d get the calls that—you know, from the kids, they would—that’s normal. A lot of the volunteers would get upset over it. It’s like, they’re just curious. I mean, yeah, if they’re calling you and saying they’re going to kill you, yeah, that’s a different story, but they’re not. Belmonte They would call just to prank call. Dodwell Right. There was a woman who called when I was training somebody, and she was being—she was locked in her bedroom, and she was being beat by her lover. You could hear in the background the sounds of her being hit and the screaming. It was probably the most disturbing phone call that I had ever gotten. The poor guy, it was his first day that he had started working there, just trying to calm her down, but it wasn’t going to make her situation any better unless she was going to get out of there. I was able to get her to get to the phone and pick up the—she threw it on the bed, I guess, and she got the phone, and I got her address. I was able to call the police. That’s probably the worst. There were a whole lot more needy calls if you want to say it because back then is when AIDS was really coming out, and really, people 15 �were being, “What’s this gay disease?” It was a really big deal. Had a lot of phone calls about health issues, and it’s really hard. They’d have to call the Center for Disease Control for the most part because we didn’t have all of that information that they needed. Everybody knew that it was a gay disease, so we also dealt with that, all the different HIV and AIDS calls. Some of them were just—people were just bored, or they’re lonely. I know that there are still people out there like that who need a helpline, and I hope that we do it again. That was a very good experience for me. Belmonte We’re actually talking about reactivating it, trying to keep it going through the day, actually. Dodwell Good, it’s very much needed. Oh, god. Belmonte People call all the time, Dodwell Yes, they do. Belmonte Those pained coming out calls in particular. Dodwell Yeah, the coming out ones. Oh yeah. Oh gosh, yeah. Belmonte You’ve alluded several times to drug and alcohol use in the community. What are your impressions of the role that it’s played in gay life in Tulsa? Do you think the situation is similar now, or has it changed over time? Dodwell Well, even back then, I think the drug use—I don’t really think it was any different than in the straight community. We might have used a little more poppers, but I don’t think there was that much of a difference. As far as the role that it played, I know that, especially when HIV came up so strong and they finally realized what it was, there were so many people who continued to want to use drugs and knew that it could lower your immune system, or it could do some damage to your system for whatever reason. I think as far as—there’s a lot of people in the straight community who think that we’re all about drugs and sex, and maybe they need to look in their own backyard. Belmonte Right. Let’s backtrack a little bit and talk about your nephew. It sounds like he was quite flamboyant. It sounds like you might have had some familiarity with the drag community in Tulsa, which is not something I’ve heard much about. Dodwell Really? Belmonte Could you tell me—well, I have some interviews scheduled, people that are definitely going to fill that gap, but it sounds like you have been seeing drag 16 �shows and knowing the people that perform drag for quite a long time. Care to elaborate on that? Dodwell Sure. I came out during the times when Trudy Tyler used to be real big, real big. Patty and Tuna Melt were real big. Have you heard of them? And Miko, yes. Miko. Belmonte Nico with an N? Dodwell With an M. Belmonte Miko. Okay. Dodwell Yeah, I’m real close to the drag community even today. I think they’re an important part of our community. Sure, they’re dramatic; they’re supposed to be. (Laughs) Early on, the drag community was very small. Now it’s very big in Tulsa. It’s even bigger in different states, but it’s much bigger now than I ever imagined it to be. I just think that they played a really important part in our community and the way that—I don’t know if the mainstream society will ever see them as being okay, but that’s their problem. Belmonte Tell me some about what you think that role is and has been historically? When was the first time you went to a drag club? Dodwell Oh gosh, it was Zipper’s, and it was the early ’80s, ’83 or ’84, something like that. I just fell in love with them. I just did, and I don’t know why. (Laughs) I still don’t know why. (Laughs) I thought they had attitude, and most of them had talent; most of them did. As far as their role in historic— maybe just from their sheer talent and guts and strength, they’re very strong, strong people. Maybe when they just have a wig on, but at least they’re strong then. Maybe if they take the wig off, it’s not so much, but at least they get the point across. I’ve been to drag queen car washes that used to be on Peoria quite a bit, and they would be in full drag in the heat. Can you imagine? Heat and heels: no, no, no. (Laughs) They donated all their money to whatever, and most of the time, most of the drag shows—unless it’s a competition or a pageant or something—they donate their money to causes in the community. They pick certain ones to do that with. There’s always some kind of a drag queen war going on in between each other, but they all do the same thing. Belmonte What were some of the other bars that became known for drag? Dodwell There was Zipper’s, and Tracy’s was a big drag bar, definitely. For a short time, and I don’t know why, but TNT’s was a drag bar. It wasn’t all men, but it was kind of a combination of drag queen and king. They did it for a while, and then of course, there are plenty more now. I know that there’s 17 �another one that was really big into drag, but I can’t remember. Of course, The Jewel Box, (Laughs) yes, with their shag carpet, and The Bamboo. That’s it. There may be more, but those are the ones that I remember the most that people knew that they could call and say, “When are you having your next drag show?” and all of that. Belmonte When was the first time you remember hearing about AIDS in Tulsa? Dodwell While I was working on the helpline. I was on the board, and we got something. Doug Hartson was president at the time, and we got something from the newspaper or somewhere, but we had an emergency board meeting about it. They were talking about this gay disease, and we need to—and also from Nancy McDonald because she was working on something up there too. Just kind of a combination of a couple people. Belmonte How did the community mobilize in response to AIDS? Did it mobilize? Dodwell Well, I think the leaders of the community did, and the health department, of course. Once the news media got a hold of it, that’s all we needed. It was just “Get away from gay people,” “Oh, he’s gay. Yeah, he’s got AIDS. I’m sure.” We had the stigma just probably like every other community did. Ours might have lasted a little longer; there are people still very uneducated over that. Belmonte Did you ever go to follies review or any of the—what were some of the fundraisers along those lines that you recall that helped raise money for AIDS? Dodwell Went to a lot of drag shows. They did that. I went to the follies, and I went to two or three of them at least, maybe more, that the money that was raised went to some sort of research, or through Tulsa Cares, or something like the HIV helping agencies and things like that. Mostly the bars, the bars really kicked in on a lot of things. “We’ll have these shows, no problem. We’ll lower the drink prices so people will come in, and do this.” I think as a community as a whole, I know everybody was terrified. I know they were. They didn’t know what to do, and so they were doing everything they could to maybe make it better. If the money helped, then great. Belmonte Were any of your personal acquaintances or friends victims of the disease? Dodwell Oh yeah. I’ve been to more funerals than I’d prefer to be. My very first friend who died from AIDS is Eric Guinness, and he was a very good friend of mine. When his partner—when he was dying, and his partner took him to the hospital, it was the St. Francis’ in Broken Arrow, took him over there. He was throwing up blood, and he was just really bad. They would not touch 18 �him because they knew he had AIDS. They would not touch him. They told him he needed to go to the one in Tulsa, the hospital in Tulsa. Belmonte Do you recall what year that was? Dodwell That was ’89 or ’90. Belmonte Tell me if you can recall any other instances along those lines: people’s family reactions, people whose partners might have then had clashes with family. Do you recall any instances like that? Dodwell Are you talking about for AIDS? Belmonte For AIDS in particular, with hospital, medical authorities. Dodwell Medical authorities, oh yeah. It was a real big deal. Of course, it was full gown, and facial, and gloves, and everything for everybody that would enter the room, including the doctor and nurses. I was an HIV care coordinator for OSU, and this—just recently I guess. I’d go up to the hospital—even today, would go to the hospitals here, TRMC or any of these hospitals around. It’s awful, but especially like St. John’s and St. Francis, they just don’t know how to treat it; they don’t want to treat it. I don’t know why, whatever, maybe it’s a religious thing. I do know that TRMC is the most compassionate, from my experience, with people like that. As far as reactions, they just get treated differently. Whenever I was going before to my friends and seeing them in the hospital and to now, it’s getting a little better, maybe because education is better, I hope. Back then, even the doctors and the nurses were not as educated as what they should be. They would never think of kissing somebody on the lips who had AIDS. I mean, they just don’t understand what it’s about. Belmonte When did you become an HIV/AIDS educator? Dodwell Let’s see. When I went to work for OSU, that’s how I started— Belmonte OSU Medical School? Dodwell Yeah, off Southwest Boulevard. It was a grant-funded position, so it was a short-term thing. I started doing that four years ago, almost four years ago. I worked there two and a half, three years, two and a half years, I guess. I did testing, HIV testing and counseling. Did the statistics and everything as far as the patients that were coming in. I learned, and I saw a lot. A lot of times they’ll come in to be tested, and they’re straight. It’s like, “I can’t have AIDS because I’m not a homosexual,” so I have to educate them and talk to them, and it takes forever. It was important to me that if they did, if they were positive, they needed to be educated just for the safety of their own 19 �self. I saw a lot in the community. Some people who get AIDS, they have a whole different look at life after they get over all the pissed off stage and everything else, and they kind of get down to it. It’s like, “Okay. Well, let’s see. I’ve got this much to live or not to live or whatever. I’m going to make a difference.” Hopefully they continue to do that, and most of them did. Belmonte Have you had much experience with members of the black gay and lesbian community in Tulsa? Dodwell Very little. Very little. Belmonte Do you have any theories why there may be such a—it’s a tremendous gap in this community along this line. Do you have any impressions as to why that might be? Dodwell Do you really want to know? Belmonte Yeah. Dodwell The ones that I do know—the ones that I’ve met and talked to, I’ve asked them—especially when I was on the board, I would say, “Why are you coming to be on the board? Have you volunteered? Bring some of your friends. We have a resource here, and this is really good.” It was like, “I don’t have enough money for them.” That’s been the rumor for years. What do you do? I say, “No, no, you have this talent. You have this, and you have this. You can do it,” but it’s going to take more than just one or two people to go out and say, “Come on in. Come in and talk to us. Join us here.” Other than being a cultural difference, I don’t know what else it would be. Belmonte Do you think that class gap that you’re alluding to affects a lot of white members of the gay and lesbian community? Dodwell You bet it does. Belmonte Tell me more about that because this is not the first time I’m hearing this charge made at TOHR. (Laughter) Dodwell I have no real issues with TOHR. I believe in it. I want to continue to believe in it. There are a lot of people who are believing right now that it’s an elitist society. As far as—you have to be somebody to be a part of it. I’ve been a part of TOHR since the ’80s. Belmonte For twenty years. Dodwell Yeah. I don’t think I have much of a balance on my checkbook. You know, I don’t have that much money, but I believe in the community, and I believe 20 �in the people in the community. But from what I have heard—I get a lot of emails from people just telling me things that they’ve experienced like, “I went into TOHR. I went into the office, and they looked at me like I was just this bum, and I wasn’t going to be accepted, and I didn’t feel right. They’re all walking around with suits and briefcases.” Anyway, they would say this, and I’d write back and just like, “Give them another chance and go back up there. Try to see what you can do.” There are a lot of people right now—I cannot believe I’m telling you this—but there are just a lot of people that have lost any kind of hope for TOHR. You know that. Belmonte I do know that. As someone who’s on the board, it’s something I care about and hope to change. One of the reasons why I founded this project is I want everyone’s voices to be heard as part of this. Dodwell Right. It’s important to me that people understand that TOHR is what you make it, or the community is what you make it, period. I may not agree with everything that they do, but who does? That’s crazy. Everybody has their own agenda and whatever. I just—there’s a lot of people on the bandwagon right now that are just saying, “Oh, they did this, and they’re doing this. They’re doing that.” One thing that I have preached and preached, and you know, it’s [inaudible] thing. I’ve said, “Keep whining because that’s all you’re going to get is whine. That’s it. Do something about it. Get up off your butt and go down there and volunteer and do something about it. Stop your frickin’ whining.” I will continue to say that. If things work out—if a building is built, and these people still think this way, it doesn’t always— people don’t always come when you build the building. You have to get it going. It takes some time. Belmonte It sounds like you’ve done a lot of different things over the years for the community. You mentioned HIV and the hotline. What are some of the other things that you have done as a volunteer in the community? Dodwell I was on the board. I’ve been on the board twice. The first time was the helpline, and the second time I was the programming. Belmonte What year was this? Dodwell When I was on the board the first time, it was 1985 to ’89. Yes. Belmonte Do you remember who else was on the board with you at that time? Dodwell Penny Humphrey, Doug Hartson, Dwight Kealiher, Bonnie—and I can’t remember her last name. I think she was with Penny. Steve—I can’t remember his name. Anyway, most of the people—I’m sure people who know them will see this—McCurly, Steve McCurly. I think Cynthia Corberay, I think. 21 �Belmonte Cynthia what? Dodwell Corberay, I believe. Yeah. Belmonte Tell me what you felt—what was the board like in that first period? What was TOHR like? Dodwell The board was actually fun. There was a lot of energy, a lot of motivation to get people involved. There were some problems in the sidelines, just like any other board, but they were, for the most part, pretty positive. We had a lot of speakers at our meetings. We did our best to plan events and to increase membership and then members coming in to the center. We had a little—a small library, and I think we had a few videos people could check out, but not a lot. The main focus of the actual office was the helpline. It was a big deal. It was really kind of nice to be on the board and just to see—or to be a part of TOHR at that time. There were a lot of changes that were going on: some negative, some positive. Belmonte Give me some examples. Dodwell The negatives were changing with AIDS and having to make those precautions. Changes with—as far as positive—just more people being interested in what’s going on. We have more—we had garage sales and things to raise money for different events that were coming up. The follies were real big, and of course gay pride. The picnics were really big too. Belmonte Tell me about those. What was the first one of those that you went to? Dodwell I went to my first picnic—it was at Mohawk. Belmonte How did you guys get the word out in the community? Dodwell Through the bars, for the most part, and through—some through TOHR but mostly through the bars. Lots of signs. That was when the bars are the ones really who put it on. People from TOHR and other people came to it, but they would cook hot dogs, and they’d have hamburgers. It was just—they’d have their kids there and whatever. It would be a big, ole—well, by the end of the day, it was a drunk fest, but it was fun! (Laughter) Belmonte Do you remember how many people would go to those? Dodwell Hundreds. It was pretty big. Never really had any trouble at Mohawk Park that I know of. Went there a couple of summers a couple of times, two that I know of, maybe three. Then it was moved to another park on the west side 22 �of Tulsa, and we were there for a couple of years. I think from there it went to Veteran’s Park. Belmonte Do you—you remember ever going to the Black and White parties? Dodwell Oh yeah. Belmonte Tell me what those were like. Dodwell Well, the first Black and White I went to, The Village People were there to perform. That’s when I took my mother. That was a lot of fun. People were in there—I mean, it was packed. It was at the fairgrounds; it was packed. It was every combination of black and white you can imagine was there. Some people were in tuxes, some people had limos they’d come in, and they would—of course that’s when I think the bar—it was an open bar, you didn’t have to pay or something. I can’t remember, but it was a real big deal because they had to limit your drinks. The music was great, and it was just—it was a huge success. I went to three of them. I do remember, however, whenever the Black and White used to be by invitation only, and if you didn’t know somebody who was going or who was a part of it, then you couldn’t get in. I remember that. I was so mad because I thought, “Why?” Belmonte It changed from an invitation-only event to one that was publicized, and you could just pay at the door? Is that what you’re telling me? Dodwell Yeah, several years later. There, for a while it was like, “You got Black and White too? How did you do that? Who do you know?” It was a big deal. Belmonte Did you go to any of the Harwelden? Dodwell No, I did not. No. Belmonte Which remains invitation-only. Okay. Dodwell Yeah. Belmonte You were on the TOHR board. What made you get off the board the first time? Dodwell I think I had some personal issues with my family that I had to pay attention to that I wasn’t able to do it. I was still involved; I just stepped down from the—well, from the helpline the first time. The second time that I was on the board, I was helping take care of an elderly family member, my ex’s. Belmonte What year was this? 23 �Dodwell This was just a little over two years ago. I wasn’t going to have time. Well, they were also phasing out the programming, and so basically I wasn’t going to be on the board anymore. I thought, “This is probably a good time for me to step down.” Belmonte What was the rationale behind that? Dodwell Let’s see. Belmonte I know some of this might be sensitive in terms of personalities. Dodwell No, that’s okay! People are people. They’ve got to do what they’ve got to do. We had a training with the board. It was downtown, and it was a whole day training. At that training, they decided to go ahead and eliminate the programming of TOHR. I thought, “Okay, where does this leave me?” They wanted to do it until either they got a building or until they got things a little more straightened out with legalities. We had issues—we had so many programs that we wanted to work. We had one for the elderly where we could go and check on our lesbian and gay elderly people and make sure they were okay, run to the store if we needed to or whatever, and we had volunteers to do that. Issues came up with—“What if they didn’t have insurance on their car? Is it going to come back to TOHR because they’re volunteering in TOHR?” It was just—it just kept building and building and building, and it got to the point where it was like, “Okay, wait. We need to stop. We can’t have these programs anymore.” We had the Rainbow Families, which was huge, and they met at the center, and then they met in other different places. There were some people who were uncomfortable with children being in the center. Mainly—there were some of the transgendered people who were a little concerned because they didn’t want to confuse them, because a lot of times they would be dressing in one room, and they didn’t want the kids to run into the room and things like that. It was just—it was kind of a legal thing. They wanted to have everything written and drawn up, and they wanted to have enough volunteers to run those programs. We didn’t at the time. People were dropping out of TOHR just right and left because of whatever they disagreed with or whatever. Belmonte What were some of those reasons? Do you recall? Dodwell Most of the reasons were—they felt like—they would volunteer information; they would say, “Okay, I have an idea. Why don’t we do this or this or this?” and then someone on the board or whatever would just say, “Well, that’s a stupid idea.” Or, they would make time to come to our board meeting, which usually was like five hours long. 24 �Belmonte Still is. (Laughs) Dodwell They would make time to go, and they would sit there during the whole meeting. It’s like “No, we need to get them out of here and listen to what they have to say.” When they would listen to what they had to say, nobody else would respond to it. They would say, “Well, okay. We’ll look at it.” They would leave the room, and as soon as they would, they would just turn the paper over and go, “Okay, next.” They wouldn’t about it. They wouldn’t even think about an idea or a problem or something like that. There were a lot of emotions involved whenever I was involved the last time I was on the board. As far as changes and people getting hurt or feeling like they weren’t being listened to or that “Oh, it’s just like it was before. You’ve got to have a lot of money. You’ve got to be a man before you’re in TOHR.” I don’t believe that myself, really, but you know… Belmonte This was in the—this period you’re talking about now, be more chronologically specific. Dodwell Chronologically specific. About three years ago. Belmonte Was this when Carrie and Greg were the president—who was president during this period? Dodwell Brent. Belmonte Brent. Okay. Dodwell Yes, Brent was, and Carrie was President Emeritus. There were issues even there. Greg was still on the board, too. Belmonte Right. They were—this was when Dee was president very briefly, and Brent came up. Dodwell Yes, I was on the board then, too. Belmonte I’m sure there was some fallout in the wake of that. Dodwell Yeah, there was. I will say something, though. I will say that I don’t know what Dee did. I don’t know what she did, but it was—considering the time I have known about TOHR and the things that TOHR has done, she is the only person who has every brought that many people into the center, in my opinion, in history of TOHR. I don’t know how she did it. I know she probably did some things, and maybe she shouldn’t have, but she brought the community together more than I have seen anybody else. I don’t even—I don’t know Dee all that well, but I just know that I wish we could do that again because we were having people—we had waiting lists for people to 25 �get a space at the center. There were that many people there. It was just incredible. You’d go into the center, and you’d have to go down the hall and squeeze through people and stuff; they’re everywhere. I just wanted to say that. Belmonte That’s good to know. Bought all of her volunteer mobilization policies. (Laughter) Dodwell No kidding. Belmonte That’s one thing that’s very interesting about being a historian: there are many sides of the same event. I’m sure that Dee’s take on this would differ from others. Dodwell It might even differ from mine. (Laughs) Belmonte Right. Were you involved on the board when they started having the gay pride march? Dodwell You mean the… Belmonte The actual march that precedes the festival. Dodwell Yeah. Well, was I? No, I wasn’t on the board when they first did it. No, I was not. Belmonte Okay. We talked about the origins of that some. Oh! Let’s talk about your alter ego, Dyke Divine! How could we not talk about that? How long have you done this? Did you do it before email? Tell me some about the history of Dyke Divine. How could I forget that? Oh my goodness. Dodwell (Laughs) I’ve been doing the Dyke Divine thing for a little over six years, roughly. How it started was my mother got really sick, and I needed an outlet over something. I was depressed, and upset, and I didn’t really know what to do, and so I started to write. There was a guy named David Jennings, a real asshole—oh, sorry. Anyway. Belmonte That’s okay. (Laughter) There’s profanity on it elsewhere. Dodwell Okay. He did something called GayTulsa.org. I was starting to read his stuff, and it was like, oh my gosh, he was horrible. He was cutting down the bars and all this. I thought he was very funny, but some of the stuff was like, “Man, that’s going to get you killed!” Well, I started writing to him, and as I did that, he said, “If you’ve got something to say, why don’t you write for me?” “Okay then.” I just started doing that, and I started just being myself and writing about things and people. Sometimes I did bar reviews, and 26 �usually that got me death threats. I started with the community and talking about those kind of things. Belmonte Do you have hard copies of a lot of these things? Dodwell You bet I do. Belmonte Would you be willing to donate copies of them to the project? Dodwell Sure, you bet. Belmonte Great. We’ll talk about that in the future. Dodwell I just started to get emails. I mean, I would open my email, and I’d have thirty, forty a day. It was like, oh my gosh, it’s like, “When are you going to write again? When are you going to write again?” He’d post all of my articles and things, and I’d try to write every other day. Then people started writing, just like, “You know, you really helped. You helped me.” It’s like, “I can’t get enough of you.” Belmonte What type of things would you write about? Dodwell Sometimes I would write about breakups. I went through a really—well, it should have been a better breakup than what it was. Belmonte Isn’t that always the case, though? Dodwell Everybody tried to help. I wrote this really, really, really, really bad article about people minding their own frickin’ business. It was a hit, (Laughs) and I just—I didn’t stop. I think part of it, I was angry about my mom. I didn’t want her to be sick, but it was a real good release for me. I never mentioned anybody’s names, and most of the time—most of my articles have a lot to do with something I’ve either experienced personally, or I know personally somebody else who has done it, but I don’t use other people’s names. Sometimes it’s like, give me a break. It’s like the whining thing. I wrote about that. It’s like, you know, just shit or get off the pot. Come on. I don’t believe that people—maybe I say things—and I’ve heard this from a lot of people, but I say things that most people don’t, or never would want to say to anybody else in their life, because I try to tell people how it is. I try to do it. I love to write. Then I figured out that I had something to say to the community, and they were listening. Oh my god, they were listening to me. (Laughs) Belmonte Thirty, forty emails a day, boy, that’s a lot of time to invest in— 27 �Dodwell Yeah, and it got more. I got a whole lot more. Then I finally got my own domain, and I have my own site now in which I do all my own stuff. Oh man. Belmonte Did you teach yourself how to do all of the web design and everything? Dodwell Yeah. Belmonte You started building this rather amazing email database. How many people do you think are in that list now? Dodwell I have 2,800 people on my list. Belmonte That’s impressive. Dodwell (Laughs) It’s a lot. Yeah, it’s about 2,800. Belmonte Mostly women? Dodwell Combination. A lot of straight people and just people who have said, “Put me on the email list. I want that.” Belmonte What do you do? You do a weekly newsletter, postings, what do you use this list for mainly? Dodwell To give information out about things that are going on in the community. I don’t use it for things—that other email that was going around. I might send that to one or two people but not the community. It’s usually community events. I don’t know, just—I believe that these—I don’t know. I kept telling my ex, I said, “How in the world are they—it’s like they’re not working or sleeping or something. It’s like they’ve emailed me two, three times a day.” I didn’t know what to do with all that. Boy, let me tell you: it gets your head really big. I had to really watch it. (Laughs) Belmonte That’s clearly serving a need. Dodwell Yeah, I’m glad I am. It makes me feel good, makes me feel really good. Terry You’ve got a big gay pride parade, and she wore a t-shirt, and on the back it said “Dyke Divine.” People would walk up and go, “Oh man, I love your website!” Belmonte That’s great. In some ways, it strikes me as you’ve just taken the helpline work you did digital. 28 �Dodwell Yes. Then I’ll get an email that will say “searching for help.” I’m like, “Oh god, here we go.” It’s like, “Okay.” Sometimes it’s something real basic, and sometimes it’s, “I need to get out of this abusive situation,” or “I just left my husband. I know I’m a lesbian, but he’s going to kill me.” There’s just—I can’t stop it because now people depend on it. It took me a while to figure that out. I was just like, “Oh, they don’t pay attention.” The very first—two prides ago, maybe three, I was DJ’ing at the picnic. It was when, right in the middle of the ole Dyke Divine thing going, and girls would come up and they’d always be like, “Where’s Dyke Divine?” They would come up to the picnic thing; they’d come up to my little booth, and they’d go, “Can you sign my shirt?” (Laughs) “Sure,” and I’d dot my I’s. (Laughter) It’s been a lot of fun. It really has. I’m glad it’s helped some people. Belmonte That’s great. I think I have covered a lot of ground with you here, and I certainly appreciate your time, both of your time. Unless you have anything you’d like to add … Dodwell I do have one thing I’d like to add. I want to tell you a small story about—it was Christmastime, and we did what’s called a fairy tree at the center. It was for people who had some kids or knew people who had kids that might need some help at Christmas. The whole community would get together, and they would buy gifts. They would bring them to the—instead of an angel tree, we called it a fairy tree. Anyway, we were there one night, and a whole bunch of us were there, and there was a guy that came in. He looked like just this big, ole, burly—this bald-headed boy; he was just tough-looking. He said, “Is this TOHR?” and I said “Yes it is.” He said, “I’ve got some toys for you. You may want to come out and get them.” I thought, “I don’t even know this guy. Okay.” I went out, and he did. His whole back end of his truck was full of toys. We were on our way out there, and he said, “I can’t use them anymore,” and he would bring the toys. He starts bringing them in and all this. On the last load, he’s bringing them in; he starts to cry. He said, “You want to know why I’m doing this?” I said, “Okay.” He said, “I just came from”—he had just came from his parents’ house, and I guess his—not his parents, his oldest daughter’s house. His oldest daughter would not let him give all these gifts. He had four grandchildren he had never met. She would not let him see them, or give them gifts, or even leave the gifts for them because he was gay. He was in tears. This big man put the sack down, and he just grabbed me and just was crying. He said, “I don’t know what I would have done if you all would not have been open.” That is why we need [inaudible], and that was why we need [inaudible]. Belmonte That’s a pretty poignant way to end this, and I appreciate your time. This concludes this interview. 29 �------- End of interview ------- 30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Anna Dodwell Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 1, 2004 Subject The topic of the resource Anna Dodwell Oral History Project Interview from August 1, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on August 1, 2004. Anna was born on September 7th, 1963, in Tulsa. She attended public schools in Tulsa. Around 1983, she became aware of Oklahomans for Human Rights, Tulsa Chapter, [predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality] through her contact with its Helpline. She recalls the bar life around this time and other aspects of the Tulsa LGBTQ+ community. She became an active volunteer with OHR and then its successor organization Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, serving on the board and active participant with the Helpline. Through Oklahoma State University, she became a HIV/AIDS educator. She wrote the highly popular “Dyke Divine.” She discusses the various challenges facing the organization and the “class” divide within the community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anna Dodwell, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV education Anna Dodwell bar life Dyke Divine helpline HIV HIV Education HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OHR OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU TOHR TOHR helpline transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Dwight Kealiher Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 25, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on July 25, 2004. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Dwight Kealiher was born in Tulsa and lived in Poteau, Sallisaw, Sulphur, Ada, and Checotah. He grew up in a Southern Baptist family, living a pretty typical small-town life. 6 After graduating from Checotah High School, he enrolled at Oklahoma State University (then, Oklahoma A&M College) in 1955 as a business major. After college, he married a girl he knew from Checotah, staying married for twenty years and having three sons. During that time, however, Dwight also fully recognized that he was gay. Also after college, he spent six months, active duty, at Fort Leonard Wood in the National Guard. He then moved to Tulsa where he fulfilled the remaining five and a half years in the Reserves of his six-year commitment and got a job with a CPA firm. He took some accounting classes at University of Tulsa and later passed the CPA exam, and in 1989, he ventured out on his own, opening his own office in Tulsa. Over the years, he’s been active in local LGBTQ+ support groups such as Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (now Oklahomans for Equality), Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN), Tulsa Cares, and Health Outreach Prevention Education (HOPE), along with being a successful businessman. Subject The topic of the resource Dwight Kealiher Oral History Project Interview from July 25, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dwight Kealiher, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 available at Center Dwight Kealiher H.O.P.E. Health Outreach Prevention and Education (H.O.P.E.) HOPE interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU RAIN Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN) TOHR transcript TU Tulsa CARES Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Tulsa video