1 20 46 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/0982d06f9a2f92fbf7fe2f9136d901e2.mp4 a9de7829384dba075a9196f77cfcdd6e https://history.okeq.org/files/original/ad0d0594064e8fa1c25d3be91a009043.pdf 162b575cf68ca5c82dd758b4c47c8b4e PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Bob Inglish, Mike Green and Dennis Neill Interview Conducted by Kerry Lewis Date: May 5, 2003 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video, March 14, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �Discover the early days of Tulsa's LGBTQ+ activism through the personal stories of key founders. This episode explores how the community built a social, legal, and health infrastructure amidst societal resistance and growing awareness of HIV/AIDS. Main Topics Covered:         Origins of TOHR and OHR in Tulsa (1980s) Community challenges and societal attitudes Formation of advocacy, social, and health programs The role of gay bars and underground networks Personal experiences of coming out and safety concerns The impact of HIV/AIDS on community activism Milestones: First events, legal battles, and social acceptance Resources and support organizations then and now Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction to Tulsa's LGBTQ+ activist roots 00:34 - Personal backgrounds of Dennis, Bob, Mike 01:12 - How and when the community organized in Tulsa 02:06 - Early social hubs: Bars and clandestine meetings 03:04 - Challenges and societal perceptions in 1980s Tulsa 04:16 - Community safety and personal disclosures 05:55 - Formation of Tulsa's LGBTQ+ advocacy group 06:57 - Establishing social activities and their significance 08:14 - National awareness and influence from outside Tulsa 09:55 - The community's response to Stonewall and pride events 10:53 - Visibility and openness issues in the community 12:06 - Overcoming societal fears and the early fight for rights 13:31 - Personal safety, coming out, and legal discrimination 15:07 - Attitudes toward the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa 16:00 - The role of community support and opposition 17:23 - The importance of social activities beyond bars 2 �18:53 - Early efforts in education and health services 19:55 - Community milestones: Growth and societal change 21:20 - Encountering hate, violence, and the bravery to stand out 23:52 - The significance of making history and feeling of impact 25:09 - Responding to societal prejudice and the evolution of acceptance 26:30 - The pioneering moments during the AIDS crisis 28:01 - Community outreach, resources, and forming alliances 29:49 - Reflections on why OHR and TOHR were critical 31:19 - The influence of legal, social, and cultural shifts 32:45 - Social programs: Sports, dances, and community events 34:27 - Responding to the AIDS epidemic: education and activism 36:44 - Community response to initial activism efforts 38:24 - Internal community conflicts and how they evolved 40:34 - The importance of social support and combating loneliness 42:14 - Fundraising events, health clinics, and advocacy work 44:40 - Building social networks and the importance of social activities 48:55 - The community's response to HIV/AIDS and health initiatives 50:04 - Early reactions to AIDS in Tulsa and community education 52:01 - How epidemic shifted community behaviors and perceptions 54:11 - Ongoing issues: Safe sex, relationships, and legal protections 56:34 - The cultural significance of marriage and family for gay Oklahomans 57:23 - The continued evolution of community activism and health issues Bob Inglish, Mike Green, Dennis Neill oral history interview May 5, 2003 Kerry Lewis: Hi, I'm Kerry Lewis. I'm with the TOHR's Gay History Project. I'm here today on May 4th interviewing Dennis Neill, Bob Inglish, and Mike Green. They are three of the original organizers of TOHR in the early years, and so we're going to begin by talking to them a little bit about who they are and then also how OHR and TOHR began. Well, good afternoon. What I'd like to do is to begin by asking you a little bit about who you are and what you do and things like that. So we'll start with you, Dennis. Dennis, if you wouldn't mind, let us know when you were born. Dennis Neill: I was born on March 18, 1952. Kerry Lewis: And that makes you? Dennis Neill: I'm 51. Kerry Lewis: You're 51 years old. And have you always been from Tulsa? Dennis Neill: I was born in Ponca City and then went to school at Stillwater and University of Texas Law School. Kerry Lewis: And then did you move to Tulsa after that? Dennis Neill: Right. Dennis Neill: About what year was that? Dennis Neill: In May of 1977, I joined the law firm of Conner and Winters. 3 �Kerry Lewis: And you are and have been single and you have no children? Dennis Neill: Well, I have a partner, but I do have no children. That's correct. Kerry Lewis: And your profession? Dennis Neill: Well, I'm a lawyer by training, but have responsibility for the technology and office assets of Samson Investment Company, an oil and gas company headquartered in Tulsa. Kerry Lewis: We'll probably go back in a minute and ask you more about what you were doing at the time, the OHR beginning, et cetera. But I'll probably just move on now to Bob. Bob, could you give me your date of birth and how old you are? Bob Inglish: 1954, 49. I grew up in Okmulgee and practiced law there out of school and still do. But I've always lived in Tulsa since getting out of school. Kerry Lewis: And Mike? Mike Green: I was born June 25, 1932. Born right here in Tulsa. And I grew up in Tulsa, graduated Central High School, went to OU, got my BA there. And then went in the Army, spent two years in the military. Married while I was in the military, met my colleague, sweetheart. And we had two children. And returned to Tulsa when I got out of the Army. Was here for about a couple of years with my brother in the oil field supply business. And then went to Waterloo, Iowa, where I worked with my father-in-law in the retail clothing business. From there I went to Tempe, Arizona, where I went to school and studied writing, creative writing. Then returned to Tulsa, once again in the oil field supply business, for about five years. Then went to night Law School and started practicing law in 1966. Retired one year ago and moved to Palm Springs with my partner. By the way, I got divorced. Kerry Lewis: My understanding from your answer is that back in, say, 1980, in that time period, you were practicing law. You were in private practice? Mike Green: In private practice. Kerry Lewis: What kind of law did you practice? Mike Green: I always say general practice. When I first started practicing law, I was one of the three Tulsa County public defenders that was appointed. I did that for a couple of years. I always did a lot of criminal work, did domestic work, personal injury work, just general practice. Kerry Lewis: And were you working at that time with a firm or individually? Mike Green: There were three of us that did form a firm, but it was back in the 70s. That was for about five years. So I think I was probably by myself at the time in the 80s. Kerry Lewis: What about you, Bob? Say, around 1979, 80, in that time period, what was your profession like at that time? Or what did you do at that time? 4 �Bob Inglish: Well, I practiced in Okmulgee, which is a town of 14,000 people. At that time, the oil boom was in full force. I did a lot of oil and gas work. I always did a lot of probate work, real estate work. And, of course, in a small town, you do a lot of things, but that was primary emphasis. Kerry Lewis: And Dennis, in 1980, what were you doing? Dennis Neill: I was a third-year associate at a firm of about 30 attorneys, and I was spending a lot of my time working with the securities partners on oil and gas and real estate securities offerings. Kerry Lewis: Do you have any recollection of when you first met, the three of you, back in the, I'm assuming, the late 70s? Do you have any recollection of how that occurred? Mike Green: I met Dennis. There were three of us that had a bar in Central Plaza. It was part-time, it wasn't our day jobs. And we did it for fun at nighttime, and Dennis was living there, and Dennis would come in and sit there and have drinks and smoke cigars every time. That's how I met Dennis. I think I met Bob, I think Bob actually lived in Center Plaza for a while. Bob Inglish: Yeah, I did, I didn't make that connection. Mike Green: And that's when we first met. Kerry Lewis: And that was well before TOHR, OHR began? Mike Green: A few years, I would say, before that, about many years before. Bob Inglish: Well, of course, I was out of law school in 79 and TOHR started when? Dennis Neill: 80. Bob Inglish: 80, yeah, yeah. I think I met Dennis, like, at Zippers, and it wasn't, you know, the next week there was supposed to be a meeting at his house to come to. That's how I remember that, so. Kerry Lewis: Do you remember when the first time the discussion came up about we need to form or have some sort of an organization like OHR? For right now, it's limited to OHR. I understand there may have been some stuff going on before that, but do you remember how that first came up? Dennis Neill: Well, I remember talking with, I think, probably both of you at Zippers one night. I definitely recall, at least visiting with you, Bob, didn't I, at Zippers, and we were talking about the concept of having an organization. And I don't know if Mike and I kind of met separate on that issue or not, but very quickly we kind of got together with the four of us that became the first officers, including Gary Durst, and very quickly started meeting in some homes and laying out some thought processes, given the stimulus that we had from the Oklahoma City organization that had formed a few years before. Bob Inglish: There were probably about 10 or 15 people at that first meeting, I remember, at Dennis' house. And of course, one thing that seemed unique then that 5 �may seem peculiar now is that it's very important to have the support of the bar owners, because that was the center of gay life. And I remember John Willis was there, and Tim was there from Tim's playroom, and whatever, and there was... Mike Green: I think Jim Smith, too. Bob Inglish: Jim Smith. Kerry Lewis: How many, just to give us today a little bit of an idea, how many bars did you estimate were around back in 1980 that were kind of gay or gay-friendly bars in Tulsa? Bob Inglish: Well, there was Zippers, there was Tim's, and then there was the, wasn't there a trio of bars downtown? Mike Green: Right, the Taj Mahal and the Zebra. Bob Inglish: Zebra, which is awful. And the Queen of Hearts. Mike Green: Yes, and then what was the other, the disco down the street from the Queen of Hearts? In fact, it was the first disco in Tulsa, and it was so popular, the straights began coming to it. Took it over? Well, yeah, we put up a good fight. So it didn't ever really become a straight bar, but in fact, one of the owners was straight, and the other two were gay. Bob Inglish: But there wasn't anything about gay life, from a congregation standpoint, except the bars. Mike Green: Right. Bob Inglish: I mean, there wasn't a supportive church, there wasn't a non-profit group, there wasn't a group of common interests. It was just, if you were gay and you wanted to see people, you went to a bar. Kerry Lewis: Were you three, at that time, aware of nationally what was going on with the gay community? Were you aware that there were some organizations outside of Tulsa and Oklahoma that did something like this, or just, what was your level of knowledge as far as what else was going on as a whole as far as the gay community at that time? Mike Green: I'm not real certain of the time period, or the time frame, I should say, but I do remember that my practice had kind of taken a turn while I was doing an awful lot of gay work, representing people, gay people in divorces, both men and women, in criminal matters and other things like that. And I remember getting contacted by Lambda and some other organizations nationwide as to the work I was doing and wanting to assist and even pay some clients fees. They couldn't afford the fees themselves. Bob Inglish: Well, you certainly could take the Advocate to keep in contact with what was going on nationally. I think several of us were well-traveled and certainly at that point in time, the Castro area in San Francisco had developed and Greenwich Village had developed, so if you traveled any, you were certainly aware that there was a lot going on in the gay movement. Certainly, I had just come from OU and there was a lot of activity as far as gay student groups getting started at the 6 �university that was well publicized and so everything was in its early stages, but there was things going on that we were aware of here in Oklahoma. Mike Green: When was Stonewall? Bob Inglish: 1969. Mike Green: I'd ask that because I remember Gary Durst was there in New York when Stonewall occurred. I remember Gary telling me that he thought it was just another night out in New York City when it happened. He had no idea what was going on. Kerry Lewis: Well, at that time, did cities tend to have big pride-type activities like pride parades and festivals? Dennis Neill: Not locally at all. I think we saw some of the flamboyant stuff probably occurring in San Francisco and New York that you see on TV, but this was certainly pre-internet, pre-email, so you looked more for these static publications rather than the wealth of resources that you can have today with regard to knowing what other community centers are doing throughout the U.S. or what's going on with the gay and lesbian movement in other locales. It was a little more difficult, but there were a couple of reliable, viable sources of information. Kerry Lewis: How out were you in your personal lives at that time when you decided to be involved with organizing OHR, the Tulsa chapter of OHR? Were you fairly open with being gay to your family and friends at that time? Dennis Neill: Well, I was with my sister, but I wasn't particularly out with my parents, although I think they were aware. I do remember approaching a new junior partner at the law firm as we were first contemplating formation of TOHR and asking him if he thought I should go to the partners meeting and explain my activities with the gay community in Tulsa. He gave me the wise thought that really that was probably the focus of the partners meeting, that maybe if it was important for civil rights issues to go ahead and pursue it, but not really a need to visit with the law firm at this stage. So that was probably the right discussion because that was in 1980 and even that firm, that would have been the first gay individual that they would have had to deal with. It was probably better for them to get it more down the road after things got informed and in a little bit better shape than probably at that point in time. Bob Inglish: I think contextually you'd have to remember that when you talk about the gay movement coming into its own, that the Castro area in San Francisco or the Greenwich Village in New York City probably started developing as a gay center in 74 or 76. So we're talking about Tulsa in 1979 and 1980. We're certainly not the Castro area and we're certainly not Greenwich Village. The movement was fairly recent and the concept of people being openly gay and out and having activities as a gay community was still pretty new in other cities other than major metropolitan areas. I would think that we might have had an exuberance about starting the organization, but you weren't aware of roadblocks at the time until you tried things. You didn't necessarily know that doors were going to be shut until you tried things. Or tried a case, Mike, I would guess. You didn't necessarily know that there might be prejudice or confrontation as you tried things. 7 �Mike Green: I think I divorced in 66 and I had two children, like I said earlier. They were born I think in 58 and 60. And I never actually came out and told my family I was gay. I never came out and told my kids I was gay. They told me and they told my ex-wife who was very, very receptive and we're still very, very close to this date. But when TOHR was being formed, by that time my practice had become I'd say at least 50-60% gay. And as far as the community, the outside community was concerned, I grew up sitting in maybe four or five gay bars. And we had the liquor problems back in those days and there were a lot of liquor busts. And they got used to when they would bust a bar and take the owners in or the bartenders in, they would expect Mike Green to show up within a few minutes to get them out. And so my name was becoming associated with gay issues. And I realized too, some other attorneys learned I was gay and I never seemed to have a problem with it because of their knowledge. Kerry Lewis: And that kind of leads me on to my next question. I mean, what is your evaluation or your sense of the climate in Tulsa at that time as far as their attitudes towards gays and lesbians? Mike Green: I think it was negative. I really do. I don't think the people were educated, and I think they were fearful of the, quote, gay political agenda. And Tulsa had become a very, we used to call it the buckle of the Bible belt. And it was not at all, I don't think, gay friendly. But because they had not been exposed to that kind of lifestyle that we were going to try and present to them later on. And I know in some of the court situations I had, just the mere fact that you were a lesbian or you were a homosexual male would mean you were unqualified to have custody of your children. And I had problems in visitation issues even, where if you had a partner, that partner could not be in the home when the children came to visit. And it was just presumed that if you were gay or a lesbian and you had a partner, same sex partner, that you were doing something that was not presentable to the children. Kerry Lewis: And I'll ask the same question to you, too, in a second. But just as a follow up question to you, Mike, did you ever have a sense of risk as far as your personal safety or your personal status? Mike Green: Not my safety, no. Personal status, yes. I was concerned at times. I had a lot of clients who I'm not sure how receptive they would have been to knowing that I was gay. And also, I had two children I was supporting, and a son I was sending through college. Kerry Lewis: Bob, do you have any differing views on how Tulsa was as far as its perception of gay people? Bob Inglish: I don't think I would disagree, but you also have to remember where gay people were. I mean, I laugh at some of the things. You know, I remember, you know, you would dress a certain way. I mean, gay life was very clandestine, even for people who were out. And by out, I mean, they might go to gay bars or they might consider themselves homosexual and admit that personally and not have a problem with it. But, you know, if you were wanting to meet other homosexuals, you might dress a certain way. I mean, it went through trends. You might dress, have an IZOD t-shirt. How many IZOD shirts did you have? But that was... 8 �Dennis Neill: Are they out of style? Bob Inglish: They're back in, I think. But you would wear, you might wear an IZOD shirt and your jeans, and jeans, your hair might be cut short. And that was like a universal symbol. Or there was an absurd fashion statement where you flipped your collar up in the back for a while, which really looked dumb. But it was a, that was a signal to people that you were gay. And then you also had this feeling if you were like in an airport or you were at a store or something and, you know, you would see somebody and maybe detect that, some of those universal symbols that you go, wow, I mean, here's another gay person, like, oh, wow, you know. And of course, I think people were very sexually promiscuous then simply from a repression standpoint, they had been repressed for so long and there was such a exuberance about accepting the fact that you were gay that, you know, you might meet someone and you'd go, oh, you're gay, you know, maybe this is going to be a sexual encounter because, you know, you weren't going to meet gay people in another way. And so, you know, yeah, Tulsa had a feeling, you know, I think all of us perceive that to be negative, but gay people were not out and open and comfortable like they are today. I mean, you know, that was 24 years, 24 years ago, is that right? 23, yeah. So it was very different. Kerry Lewis: What about your sense of personal safety, your sense of status? You're just coming out of law school, or a few years out of law school. Did you have any, were you conscious of what the effect might be on your life and your career by being open or being part of a group like this? Bob Inglish: I don't really know that I was, but I think there was always some discretion that was involved. I mean, you just, you know, for example, now, if I interview a secretary or something at work, you know, I might say, I just want you to know I'm gay and, you know, I hope you don't have a problem with it, perhaps. You know, back then, I wouldn't have that discussion. You know, I mean, you wouldn't think about having that discussion. I was always out to my parents, but as far as, at least, you know, Okmulgee being very open, I don't think that I was. I never hid anything. I never dated, you know, a girl to give some kind of cover, but I never, but I don't know how particularly open I was. I had a pretty convenient out that I could drive back to Tulsa and be in a larger city and have that little bit of protection, but I don't think I ever had much fear for adverse consequences, and I think early on, I knew that it wasn't worth the sacrifice. I fortunately had counseling whenever I came out and had a pretty good, firm feeling that being openly gay was not an option, but an essential character. You know, something was very essential to one's well-being, and if something adverse had happened, I think I knew that I had other options, and perhaps there were areas of the country where you could go live, where you could be accepted. I mean, you could move to San Francisco. You could move to New York. You didn't have to stay here if you didn't want to. Kerry Lewis: So what were your perceptions of the climate in Tulsa with regard to gays and lesbians? Dennis Neill: Well, I felt we were definitely on the frontier here, and, you know, it was a time of contrast, too, because there were certainly some very supportive institutions. All Souls Unitarian Church, where we were first meeting, some of the 9 �members of their congregation really had a lot of outreach to us. The ACLU, in working with them, very interested in the gay rights movement in Oklahoma. So we certainly had some friends and some advocates, but I think they were pretty few, you know, and we really weren't pushing them too hard at that point in time to help us with some of the more advocacy type of activities that they've certainly become well-known for since 1980. But I certainly think I recognized we were dealing in a little bit different world then a lot of our heterosexual friends were, because I, for example, was taking materials to Zippers one Saturday night, and I got clobbered by some teenager kids that smashed in my eye, and that was in 1980. That was a time period that several people were getting beat up outside of Zippers and some of the other bars by kids with baseball bats. One of the co-hosts of our first Black and White, which also happened to be in 1980, disappeared and was presumed killed, whether it was gay-related or not. He was very out in the gay bar community, so very possibly a victim of a hate crime at that time. A couple of the drag queens were killed in the 1980 to 83 time period. So I think, and then there was that murder down at Taj Mahal. Mike Green: Double murder. Dennis Neill: So, double murder. So I think, you know, we were certainly aware that there were some risks being gay. Certainly risk being a closeted gay or an out gay in the community at that point in time. But I kind of go back that we also had some very important friends that helped us as we moved forward with regard to the advocacy issues and the legal issues for the gay and lesbian community. Kerry Lewis: And you may have already answered this question, but it kind of leads me to wonder whether you had a personal sense that you were making history of sorts at that time. Was there that sense of excitement that you were doing something new, something that hadn't been done before in Tulsa? Did you understand or comprehend or understand that at that time? Or is that something that just comes since then? Dennis Neill: Speaking for me, I definitely felt it because we would get people coming to our functions that were really so excited to have an organization like TOHR and we had so many of these activities outside of the bars, the skates, the softball, the volleyball. It became a very important outlet for people to get socialized within the gay and lesbian community. I remember doing a radio program and talking a little bit about gay issues and I was really speaking more of an ACLU attorney and getting many, many hostile calls during that talk radio program, but that really made you quite aware that you're pushing the envelope in the Tulsa community. The next morning I had a strange bag on my front lawn and I thought, man, maybe this is a bomb, but it was actually my neighbor leaving some trash out for the trash bin the next day, but just decided to put it in my yard instead of her yard. I think there was definitely a feeling and I think we definitely, I certainly felt that we were having an impact through this organization of reaching out to some of the newer members in our community as well as those that have been here for a long time. 10 �Kerry Lewis: Bob, what about you? Did you have that sense of that you were doing something that hadn't been done before, making history? Bob Inglish: Well, it was exciting and it was a needed service. I don't know that I really had much of a historical perspective. I mean, frankly, I think the three of us are just thrilled to death that TOHR is still here and that it has the many functions that it does. This is all pre-AIDS and there have been a lot of changes in the gay community, but if you think today what the gay community has compared to what we had then, we had nothing outside of the bars. Absolutely nothing. And today, and perhaps it is the result of some of this early work, you have at least two if not three gay churches. You have churches that are certainly accepting of gays. You have Prime Timers. I point to Mike. You have Project Open Arms that deal with gay youth. You have youth services that deal with gay youth. You have, gosh, help me out here, what are some of the other things that we just take for granted today that go on in Tulsa? Mike Green: Council Oaks. Bob Inglish: Council Oaks, Men's Chorale. Now there's a women's group of Council Oaks. There's probably support groups that we're not even aware of that, there was just nothing. There was just nothing. Everything we did, you know, softball team, I mean who would think that gay people would, I mean, you know, it would be stereotypical, but you know, we've had three or four meetings and somebody's talking about a softball league and you're going, why would we want to play softball? Dennis Neill: Who wants to do that? Bob Inglish: I didn't have any desire. There was a big combination of cheerleaders, I remember that. But we sponsored plays. We registered people to vote. We had health clinics because the venereal disease was rampant in the gay community. We did political surveys. We had a lot of programs and it just mushroomed and every year it mushroomed with more and more people involved. I mean, I didn't realize that, but Dennis, you were reading something in 83, which would have been three years later, there were 250 members of the organization and we maybe started out with 10, so. Kryy Lewis: What about you, Mike? Mike Green: I found it very exciting. I didn't realize what was going on as far as, like Dennis said, pushing the envelope, but I always remember the, when Virginia Opulso [Note – Virginia Apuzzo served as Executive Director of the National LGBTQTask Force in the early 1980’s], was that who it was, came to Tulsa in 1983, was that when she came here? And spoke and then we, at a dinner we held at the Trinity Church, we asked earlier, it was downtown, which of course is one of the bigger churches. And I remember the feeling that I had that evening that it was the very first time I had ever gone to a real presentable place for a gay function. The very first time ever. And I knew it was important. I remember I was so thrilled by it. And I remember that she, the thrust of her message was that if the gays would unite, we'd be one of the strongest, the strongest forces in the entire world. I remember going back to Tim's bar after that was over, being so enthused and walking in and all of the 11 �disagreements, the arguments and so forth, I dawned on me that it would never happen. But still, it was just the idea that I had gone to a gay function in a presentable place among presentable people. And that was unique, it really was. To be gay was unique back in those days. Today it's no longer unique. It's just accepted. Accepted the fact, oh, you're gay, like Bob said, in being a secretary. It's not an issue anymore. Of course, I live in Palm Springs now, so out there. It's certainly not an issue with me and my lifestyle. Kerry Lewis: You all have touched on it, but do you have anything else, I guess, to add than what you've already said about the reason for beginning OHR, to start organizing? What you said so far is normal. There was definitely a need for some social events to gather. There really was. The only alternative at the time was the network of bars. But was there any other compelling reason or something that you really felt personally why you wanted to see OHR go forward or having this kind of a group go forward? Mike Green: I think it was the thought, and I think Dennis presented this thought to us, was that we could make a difference somehow. And we didn't know when or how, but by actually organizing and doing something, we could make a difference in what was going on in our lives and those who would have come after us. Kerry Lewis: Are you referring to a political sense or just... Mike Green: Political sense, yes, social, in every aspect of gay life. Because gay life back in those days, as far as I'm concerned, was not acceptable. I remember being in the courtroom representing gay people and the attitude of some of the judges. Just the fact that they were gay made them guilty of something. Maybe not the crime they were charged with, but guilty of something. And that changed. I'm not saying we changed it, but I think that groups like TOHR, OHR, throughout the country and around the country did change it. And so we certainly had our place in it. I remember one judge, a good example would be one judge who was homophobic. And it even said in the courtroom that he would not believe anything a gay person said on the witness stand. Merely because they were gay. And that judge went to a judicial conference in San Francisco and came back a changed individual. And he even said things like, if I would have carried my thoughts to San Francisco, they would have run me out of town on a rail. And he came back just totally a different person. Bob Inglish: I think, you know, not only was TOHR a force, but those of us that were involved, we didn't want TOHR to be a social organization. But at the same time, in addition to maybe having a real feeling that we were doing something, you know, frankly from a personal standpoint, it was a wonderful way to meet people. And, you know, I think a lot of people became involved in the organization because you could meet people and visit with people and do things. And it wasn't that you had to go to a bar at midnight and have a drink and try to converse with people. It was, you know, you could really get to know people. And I know so many people in Tulsa, you probably feel the same way, and Dennis, you do too, that we met in the early days of the organization that we wouldn't have had the opportunity to do. And, you know, you too got involved with Black and White, you know, because, you know, 12 �there was a need to have social activity in the gay community, again outside the bar, so they started the Black and White Party. I, along with several other people, started the Harwelden Party in probably 1981 or so. I think it was probably 81. But, I mean, there was a desire to, like, you know, we're gay people, we can go out, we can have a nice party, a nice social function outside of the bars. And that still goes on today. It's still a nice function and a nice part of the gay community. It seemed like there was some other... Well, to me, one of the pioneering moments of TOHR was the AIDS crisis, because we, as a result of early on, 1983 or whatever, we sent Jeff Beal, and did you say you went too, Dennis? Dennis Neill: Yes Bob Inglish: To a conference about AIDS, and they brought back information about the disease that probably would not have gotten to Tulsa for another year or two. And so we were educating people about AIDS long before it would have happened otherwise, and you just would hope that you would save people's lives, that people's lives were saved as a result of getting that information. But also at that point in time, and I don't know if it was a function of our age or a function of the organization, but people weren't out, and as a result of talking to people and coming to these groups, they...became out. I don't know what the proper English is, but, you know, they became comfortable with being gay. And they weren't before that. And just by having all these activities, they were. And you don't hear... I mean, now people come out when they are 16. They go to a youth group after school. But I can assure you that wasn't the situation at that point in time. And some of our earliest meetings, in fact the first one you noted in the newsletter, was a psychiatrist who came and talked about being gay. I mean, did we have some horrible, awful disease? Were we somehow psychologically impaired? You know, what was wrong with us? That was what was going through a lot of people's minds. And we were able to bring information to people to indicate that wasn't the case. Kerry Lewis: You Dennis, do you have any other reasons other than what had been said for why OHR was formed? Dennis Neill: No, I think it's a good point. When we first started meeting and understanding what the Oklahoma City group orientation was, and we were a chapter initially of the Oklahomans for Human Rights that was started in Oklahoma City about two years before we really got started. It was probably a lot more advocacy at the front because the co-founder of that, Bill Rogers, was a very involved attorney, very involved in the ACLU, very involved in social cause issues. So he was probably much quicker to, in Oklahoma City, take it to be a political advocacy group to the extent it could while it was still a 501c3 non-profit organization. And we felt like here we needed a little more time to develop ourselves and understand for new people coming into the organization, kind of the socialization issue. So we probably did kind of focus on the social side quicker at the beginning, but very promptly got focused on the advocacy side too. In fact, it's reflected in our first 13 �bylaws, which really haven't changed since we organized in 1980, talking about really focusing on non-discrimination for all people. So that was certainly part of our charter at the beginning. It became a focal point fairly early in the organization. And I think that was evidenced by the fact that the news media, the political environment, very quickly became aware of us and we did become the spokespeople for the gay community. Whether we wanted to be representative of the gay community or not, you do need a focal point for the media and for the political establishment. I think we very quickly became the focal point. Kerry Lewis: What kind of response did you receive when you first decided to post your first few meetings and try to get people together? Was there a positive response? Was it easy to reach people that were in the community? What was your sense, Dennis, if you want to... Dennis Neill: Well, Bob has a better memory of this. I had forgotten that even in our initial meetings that we were able to get many of the bar owners together, although I think they probably had a little bit different agenda than maybe we did initially going in. So I might kind of pass it to Bob, because I honestly don't recall a lot of what those first meetings really looked like. Bob Inglish: You know, what I recall is that there was a group of gay people, and we're really speaking from a male perspective because the lesbian community, I think, has evolved a little bit differently. But there was an older group of gay people that I think were very non-supportive of TOHR because they were so used to being closeted. They had their little bridge nights, and they had this and that that interested them, and they had their very private parties. But as far as doing anything publicly, to come out publicly was a threat. They had definitely a system, a code among themselves that you could be gay, but you weren't supposed to tell anybody about it, and you certainly didn't go to an organizational meeting, and I think there was some hostility from that segment of the gay community. I think people that were our age were fairly supportive. Dennis Neill: That's a great point. I've forgotten, a mutual friend of all of ours was very adamantly against us when we first started OHR. He worked in the same building that I did, and he criticized us for about two or three years and eventually became a very big supporter of TOHR and participated in many of our activities, but gosh, Bob's right, the environment even within our own community was somewhat hostile. Bob Inglish: That was a kind of a function Mike served with some of the older members of the community. Mike Green: You guys are right. Now that I remember. Bob Inglish: I would go, Mike, would you talk to these people? Mike Green: And it was fear-based is what it was. We had people who held large positions with oil companies and banks. There were doctors, accountants, and these people were frightened they were going to be drug out of the closet, and Bob's right about the lifestyle they had. They even had their own little language. They had words 14 �that meant certain things that even today most of us don't know what they mean anymore. Bob Inglish: Watch the boys in the band. That will give you an idea. Mike Green: Mitch at the Tea Room had a whole different significance in those days. These people were scared. They really were, and the idea that they wouldn't have to come out. I think also it was a knowledge that they wanted to come out. They wanted this openness, and yet they were afraid what it might bring to them, a loss of earnings after a 55, 60-year-old man who's faced with losing his job. Even to this day, you can be fired because you're gay. There's no protection whatsoever under the law in Oklahoma. These people did not want to lose their source of income, and this was looming in the future that appeared to them. For some reason, many of them did come out, but there are still many older gays who don't want to be associated with these kind of things. As for myself and for the younger people, a gay lifestyle could be a very lonely lifestyle. By organizing, it got rid of some of the loneliness and some of the fear of the future of living a gay lifestyle. I think that was very important to many people, and that's why they opted. Because like Bob said, although we had a different agenda, it was very social. We were talking earlier that when we were organizing it, it got to the point where sometimes the food that was served, not at my house, but at other houses by some of the people that were organizing the group, the main issue was the food and tables that were set for us and things of that type. It's still social, but that's any organization you have nowadays. Any political organization becomes social or any selfimprovement organization becomes social, that's just the way life is. You meet people that have common interests with you, and it becomes very much easier to develop relationships. Kerry Lewis: What kind of things did you do? You mentioned several, but in addition to having meetings where speakers would come and I guess occasionally having dinners and meetings where you ate, apparently, what else? What other kind of activities toward the beginning did TOHR or OHR do? Mike Green: We had the bowling. We were talking earlier, we had the softball tournaments. Bob Inglish: Gay Skates. It was always a surefire fundraiser was to have a roller skating party. I still can't believe it. Dennis Neill: Because we also served alcohol, and we had an open bar at those things. It was a cash bar, and there was one of those skates that we had out in Sand Springs, and somebody, I think it was J.L., ran into the wall and injured himself and was in the hospital for three days. It was probably somewhat alcohol related, so we took some risk with regard to that. I think the skate's demise was when we decided we were going to cool it on alcohol. Mike Green: Then we had a group that met down at Riverside Drive to play volleyball on Sunday afternoons. 15 �Dennis Neill: Very quickly when we first formed, the drag queens were very supportive of the organization, had some fundraisers. Then we did our own Turnabout Drag Show, which became the Follies, where some of us that definitely shouldn't have been doing drag end up doing drag. Hugely successful fundraisers. They raised a couple of thousand dollars each event, which was very vital for our organization at that period of time. Bob Inglish: They did health clinics, registered people to vote, did questionnaires. Dennis Neill: Our picnics were kind of different than the picnics now in that we had a lot of games at those picnics. We had the softball games, chariot races, activity booths. When we started that, like 82 or 83 at the Chandler Park. So that it was very much about trying to get people involved in each activity. So we tried many things. And for the women, we certainly did outreach through the volleyball and the women's softball. Dennis Neill: And we started seeing what would you say, within the first year or so, women starting to get involved with the TOHR. Because by 83, I think two of the six or seven officers were female. And we started seeing a balance develop by the mid 80s where the females were getting involved with, at least at the organizational level, they probably weren't as involved in the meetings and as representative in the community at the meetings, but started getting involved in the leadership positions. Kerry Lewis: Did you have any other activities that you guys can recall at that time? Maybe I should ask this. When did the helpline begin? Was that toward the beginning of the 80s or about the same time? Dennis Neill: I remember we had the training at John Dratz's apartment where he lived there about 15th off of Peoria. And then that Steve, I think that was his name, at his house we had some early training. Typically you'd have to spend all day as a volunteer going through the training. And then we even had some professional trainers and got some training from the Community Service Council's helpline to help us. But gee, it had to be early on, didn't it? Because we had it well before our first office, and our first office came about in 83 or 84, and that was when we used to have it down in Zippers before we even had an office. Bob Inglish: When we had a recorded message, we were listed in the phone book, so it wasn't necessarily staffed, but people could call. Mike Green: We would staff that, I think, in the evening hours, is what we'd usually do, and then record a message in the daytime. I remember one time walking into the clerk's office in one of the courts, and they were all laughing about something. And I realized what they were laughing about was that somebody had told them of the gay helpline, and they were calling it just to get that message. They weren't saying anything, they weren't really harassing phone calls, they were just calls just to see what the message was. And these people could not believe there was actually a gay helpline in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They were so amazed by it. Dennis Neill: Dean Dugan and Steve Wilson, who both worked with Southwestern Bell, helped us get the phone number, because we won that Vanity phone number, 743-GAYS. And I remember that when they put it in, that the central office of 16 �Southwestern Bell, the supervisors, all got together in an office to dial that number and get that recording, because they'd heard about it. And Dean or Steve just happened to be walking by and noticed them all in there wondering what in the world they were doing on a speakerphone. They were listening to our phone number. And within the first few months of putting it in, some students at that Rhema Bible College took a pledge to try to tie up our line. And we understand that was even discussed in the classes, to encourage students to dial our number, because they thought it was not appropriate to have the gay helpline here. And so we had a tremendous volume for about the first six months, and many of them were just hanging up, trying to tie up our line. But the group of dedicated volunteers, we got through that first six months or so, and then got down to the point where we were getting very important calls from people needing health information, needing to know what was going on in the community. The tough ones were the younger people calling, because we at that time felt uncomfortable talking to anybody under 18. And fortunately, we found a couple of resources. I think one of the churches volunteered to be a resource for those that were under 18, and we would provide a phone number for them. But we started getting lots of very important calls. I think the line made a big difference in people's lives. Now, obviously, still 67 percent of the calls might be somebody out of town wanting to know what bar to go to, what activities might be in the community. But a lot of them, particularly, as Bob mentioned, kind of this pre- and emerging AIDS time frame, we could really start seeing the swing over to the health issues by 83, 84. Bob Inglish: Didn't we donate books to the public library? I mean, there wasn't hardly any gay books at the library, or knowledge. Didn't we donate books? Dennis Neill: I think we did. Kerry Lewis: Logistically, how did you guys handle the helpline? Was that kept at somebody's home? Mike Green: No. John Willis, who owns Zippers, volunteered Zippers for the helpline. He had a private office in there. Wasn't there a small office behind his office where we originally set it up? And then later, when we got our first offices, we moved it over there, of course. Kerry Lewis: The impact of HIV and AIDS on the community and your impressions of that. I'm not sure at the time it was happening that it was as clear as it might be now. Looking back on it, what did the sudden emergence of a gay disease, as it was called, have on the community in Tulsa? I Mike Green: think it came around. It evolved so slowly. I can remember sitting up at Rick's and a friend of mine who's no longer living, who's a doctor, reading from Time magazine. I think I handed it to him, a little excerpt about the gay cancer thing. And him just kind of marveling, what is this thing, gay cancer? This really can't be. You know, if it's disease, we're just gay people. It just slowly got bigger and bigger. And it wasn't a long time before it hit Tulsa. Bob Inglish: You could read about it and watch TV about it, but it was all going on in San Francisco and New York. You thought, well, this isn't going to happen in Tulsa. And then it just eventually started happening. One of the first things I remember was, 17 �do you remember, it was at Sophian Plaza. It was at Don Donaldson's apartment. There was this guy that had AIDS. And of course, at that point in time, he knew he had AIDS because he had Karposi. And he had an identical brother. And they were going to go to Baltimore or someplace to have this bone marrow thing. I mean, it was real early on. Dennis Neill: Gosh, I do remember that. Bob Inglish: And we charged like 50 cents. You had to make a donation of 50 cents or something like that to help this guy out, pay for this medical treatment. I mean, Lord only knows the watershed of dollars after that, whether 50 cents a person mattered. But I remember that distinctly. Mike Green: Yeah, now that you talk about that, I do remember something about that. Dennis Neill: Yeah, I had forgotten about that. And then the first one I remember was that by mid-1983, as we started having these TOHR meetings focused on HIV, we started getting aware of it. I think it was in like early 1984, an individual came to one of our meetings and was actually in a wheelchair and was HIV infected and was ill from that. That's the first individual I remember that came to an OHR meeting and was also clearly ill from AIDS. And one of the first deaths I remember was Randy Anderson's death. Bob Inglish: Well, that's who I was talking about. Dennis Neill: Oh, was it Randy? Okay. Bob Inglish: But we were talking about, A, the gay community being very sexualoriented, that you would meet a gay person at an airport and you would just be excited that you met a gay person and that there would be maybe a compulsion to have sex. Dennis Neill: Bob's speaking for himself here. Bob Inglish: Not me, I'm not talking about myself. But then the AIDS crisis comes along and, of course, everybody's sexual activity became very cautious and then so many of us have become coupled. And, of course, you were then saying that that wasn't true for the very older generation, but those people were never out. It's kind of a different generation. Mike Green: That well may be. Bob Inglish: But I can see now where before it was like, well, we're not going to get pregnant, so why not have sex? And you would have a gathering. I mean, Sunday brunch was always a big time. And it would be like, Dennis went home with so-andso and did this, and so-and-so went home with so-and-so. But no, I went home with so-and-so the night before. I mean, that was gay life, really. Mike Green: Well, I think it unfortunately or maybe I don't know what it is, that's still gay life. In many respects. After all, we do have a thing called safe sex nowadays and many people practice it. It's amazing where I live right now, there are a number of people who do not practice that. It's just kind of unbelievable but they don't. And 18 �they're very proud of not practicing safe sex. But now they do have safe sex and when AIDS first came out we didn't know what caused it. We thought if you could be around somebody you'd catch it. I remember a friend of mine went to California and came back and told me he'd been in a party where a guy was dying of AIDS. I said, how could you be near him? How would you be around him? So it was such a very scary thing. The disease was unknown as to how it was transmitted. So it's evolved and it better be bad that we know more about it and we know it's more difficult to catch than most things and that you've got to be promiscuous in certain ways to come down with it. So I still think that there's a lot of sex going on. In fact, that's one of the problems today with HIV spread, is that there's too much sex going on, too much promiscuity in the gay world. Bob Inglish: There certainly wasn't a lot of couples to maybe feel like you were modeling after that wasn't a very normal part of the gay community. And then we're talking now that at least gay people in other areas are adopting children and whatever it is. Mike Green: That is coming around. As far as older people, I have a lot of friends who have celebrated 50 years or more with the same partner. I'm not saying they've been in a monogamous relationship, but they've been together at least 50 years. Bob Inglish: I bet the percentages, though, are very different. You're talking about a pretty narrow percent of the population that you're talking about. Dennis and my generation, you're talking about a lot more people have established relationships and homes and things like that. Or do you not think so? Mike Green: Well, the only thing that will tell is time. Because I think maybe you have more monogamous relationships now than we had before. Dennis Neill: Well, it could be part of the deal, might be, don't you think? Not that there's these huge generational gaps here, but probably in your generation, Mike, there may be more people that were willing to live the lie, i.e., always stay married to a female, and therefore there weren't as many opportunities for some of those people to couple up with a guy where probably in our generation, certainly the younger generations, there's less acceptance of living the lie. And so much earlier on in their development, they may be looking at, one, exploring the sexual side of the gay life, but then, two, realizing that it is important hopefully at some point in time to find an individual that you can kind of revolve your life around. And then our societies get more mature in supporting those relationships. Mike Green: I think that's a good idea. It's much easier to maintain a gay marriage. Dennis Neill: I mean, this whole argument about gay marriage is so ridiculous because if the heterosexual world really wanted to help control the promiscuity issue, it'd be very supportive of the gay relationships, the gay unions, and so forth, much like the Netherlands has experienced and some of the other countries that have a much formalized union process to celebrate the union and to support it in various ways. Mike Green: And two, a lot of people I meet, I'm sure you guys have met too, they look at this idea of being married and getting into a heterosexual relationship and having children and so forth. It really belongs to the Midwest. It's not an East Coast 19 �thing, it's not a West Coast thing, but it belongs to Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas. It may well be. I don't know. I have a lot of friends in California now from Michigan, New York, San Francisco, and most of the guys have not been married and do not have children. Whereas back here, I still have a lot of friends who are my age who have raised families with grandmothers now. Some of the great grandmothers. Organizationally, you had mentioned that TOHR started in 1983 to deal with HIV by having programming that kind of revolved around educating or finding out what's going on with HIV. I know eventually there became testing, but what other kinds of things were going on in the early to mid-1980s involving HIV? [Tape Ended] 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2003] Bob Inglish, Mike Green, and Dennis Neill Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 4, 2003 Description An account of the resource Bob Inglish, Mike Green and Dennis Neill Oral History Interview with Kerry Lewis on May 5, 2003 - Discover the early days of Tulsa's LGBTQ+ activism through the personal stories of key founders. This episode explores how the community built a social, legal, and health infrastructure amidst societal resistance and growing awareness of HIV/AIDS. Subject The topic of the resource Bob Inglish, Mike Green, and Dennis Neill Oral History Interview from May 5, 2003 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bob Inglish, Mike Green, Dennis Neill, Kerry Lewis 2003 activism AIDS AIDS/HIV Bob Inglish Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV HIV/AIDs interview Kerry Lewis Kerry R. Lewis Mike Green OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Al Carlozzi Interview Subject The topic of the resource Al Carlozzi Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from June 6, 2019 Description An account of the resource Al was interviewed on June 6, 2019, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project. In the interview, Al discusses his early life, service in the Air Force and early outreach to the LGBTQ+ community for mental health. In 2006, he became director of the OSU-Tulsa Counseling Center (now named the Al Carlozzi Center for Counseling) until his retirement in 2019. He has been a long-time consultant with Oklahomans for Equality regarding its counseling services. He collaborated on the book “Transgender and Gender Diverse Persons: A Handbook for Service Providers, Educators, and Families.” <strong>A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Al Carlozzi, Angus Henderson, Allison Richmond, Matthew D. Williams, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 6, 2019 2019 Al Carlozzi Allison Richmond Angus Henderson Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project interview Matthew D. Williams Micki White Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project OSU Oral History Project transcript https://history.okeq.org/files/original/3f257b237fcb28eacc3a53644888ae6c.mp4 b7854c07569e72010538c04ee38ad435 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/dc8193d4ab8cf0eb7f5c31a11315bcfe.pdf a2e2ac0ad4e26f5a886e10f91d43280c PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Anna Dodwell Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte August 1, 2004 OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Edmon Low Library ● Oklahoma State University ©2004 �OKEQ Oral History Project Interview History Interviewer: Laura Belmonte Transcriber: Allison Richmond Editors: Anika Benthem The recording and transcript of this interview were processed at the Oklahoma State University Library in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Project Detail The OKEQ Oral History Project is a series of interviews documenting the rich contributions of LGBTQ community members in the state of Oklahoma, with a particular emphasis on Tulsa and the surrounding area. These interviews were conducted by members of Oklahomans for Equality, formerly Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Legal Status Scholarly use of the recordings and transcripts of the interview with Anna Dodwell is unrestricted. The interview agreement was signed on August 1, 2004. 2 �OKEQ Oral History Project Anna Dodwell Oral History Interview Interviewed by Laura Belmonte August 1, 2004 Tulsa, Oklahoma Belmonte It is Sunday, August 1, 2004, and I’m Laura Belmonte. We are interviewing Anna Dodwell today at my home. Anna, we begin with some really basic stuff. Just tell us your full name and where and when you were born. Dodwell Okay. Anna Dodwell, I was born here in Tulsa, Oklahoma, September 7, 1963. Belmonte Have you lived here your whole life? Dodwell Yes. Belmonte Okay. Tell us a little bit about your childhood and your family background. Dodwell Well, I went to Eisenhower Elementary School and grew up with lots of kids in my neighborhood. We played, and they teased me, and I teased them, and it was just kind of a fairly normal childhood. My father was a plumber, and my mother was the manager of a restaurant for many, many years. I went to Edison Junior High and High School. Went to school with one star, Jeanne Tripplehorn; she’s been in a few movies. Went to—I’ve known her since elementary school. Just had a lot of childhood—close childhood friends. Nothing really significant. I was in Camp Fire for twenty-six years, so it was very special to me. Belmonte Any brothers and sisters? Dodwell I have an older brother and I have—actually three older brothers who are all half-brothers, and then I have a sister, and that’s it. Belmonte That sounds like enough. Dodwell Yeah. Belmonte How have you classified your sexual identity for most of your adult life? 3 �Dodwell To begin with, when I was in high school or even junior high, I knew there was something different, and I didn’t know what it was. I knew that whatever it was, it was strange. I shouldn’t have to like girls. Why should I—why am I liking this? I tried to go with society and decided that I knew that I was a lesbian, but there really wasn’t a name for it. There was no support, zero support, for any teenager, or any adults for that matter, as far as coming out or anything like that. We just kind of tried to do what society says to do. I had a son, and I tried to say, “Well, this is it. This is where I’m supposed to be,” but I was miserable. Belmonte How long have you been out to yourself? Dodwell To myself, I’ve been out probably since I was nineteen or twenty. Belmonte When did you have your first same-sex sexual experience? Dodwell When I was about nineteen, I think, nineteen or twenty, yeah. Belmonte How did you find this woman? Did you meet through a mutual friend? Dodwell In a bar. Belmonte Do you remember what bar? Dodwell Seeker’s Choice. Belmonte Where was that? Do you remember anything about it? Dodwell I don’t remember… Belmonte Terry remembers. (Laughter) Dodwell It was on Admiral, yes. I don’t remember exactly where, but yeah, I picked someone up—well, I guess she picked me up. It was in a little, tiny strip mall. Belmonte Was it predominantly a women’s bar? Dodwell I think so, yeah. That’s all I ever saw in there, really, was women. It was—I do know it was owned by a transgendered man. Belmonte Oh really? Is he still alive? Still live in Tulsa? Dodwell I don’t know. 4 �Belmonte Did you go to this bar again? Dodwell I went occasionally, but the woman was really scary, and I didn’t want to see her anymore. (Laughter) Belmonte We’ve never heard that story. (Laughter) Dodwell She had whips hanging from her wall, and I really didn’t like that. Terry Scared you to death. (Laughs) Belmonte I could see why. Living in Tulsa your whole life, when do you recall having met a gay person for the first time? Dodwell I knew that my nephew was coming out, and he would talk about how gay he was when Rocky Horror was really big. We’d go to Rocky Horror all the time. He was kind of the first gay person that I really was around. He used to correct his lisping in front of the mirror and all that kind of stuff. Other than that, he just—he was about the only person that I can think of; everybody else I knew was straight. Belmonte You heard of Seeker’s Choice how? Do you recall when you first began to hear about places where gay people went in Tulsa? What were some of those places other than Seeker’s Choice? Dodwell I believe I called the helpline. I think I called the helpline to find that out. I either did that or I looked in the phonebook, but I think it was the helpline. I can’t recall exactly how that came about, but I know they gave me two or three different choices of bars that I could go to. Gosh, that was ’83. Belmonte That would have narrowly ended the helplines if— Dodwell Yeah. (Laughs) That’s kind of when I got involved with the community. Belmonte Well, what were some of the other places that you met gay men and women after going to Seeker’s Choice? Dodwell The only places that I knew were bars, really. Zipper’s, I grew up in Zipper’s. Belmonte Tell me what Zipper’s was like for women. I’ve heard a lot of men talk about Zipper’s. Dodwell It was okay. I mean, there were several women there. They did have a few drag king shows there. It was kind of far and few between, but it did happen. There were so many young people and so many underage people there, but 5 �for women, there was like a—if I remember right, it was an area that was— you’d walk into the bar, you’d go up these steps and to the left; it was like almost all women. Anywhere else in the bar they were just scattered here and there; they weren’t grouped in certain areas, but one area I always knew that they were. Belmonte Where else besides Zipper’s? Dodwell TNT’s. Belmonte Do you remember what TNT’s was like at the time? Dodwell I think it was a little rougher than—well, of course—than it is now. Belmonte It’s straight now. Dodwell I know. I think they’re trying to keep it gay, but it’s not happening. Oh, Tracy’s. Yes, I went to Tracy’s too. I don’t remember where that one was— off of Utica. I didn’t go to Tracy’s very often. Have you ever been to Tracy’s? Belmonte This is the first time I’m hearing about Tracy’s. Tracy’s and Seeker’s Choice. Dodwell Tracy’s was a nicer bar—well, much nicer than Seeker’s Choice, I think it was. Belmonte You said Seeker’s Choice was off Admiral. Dodwell Yes. Went there, not a whole lot, but went there now and then. Then I started going to Zipper’s a lot, went to Zipper’s all the time whenever it was in its glory. Belmonte Over at 31st and Yale. Dodwell Yes. Oh yeah. I remember all the car bashings and the people that would be standing outside when the bar would close, and they would have baseball bats in their hands and, you know. Belmonte Tell me more about that. I’ve heard that policemen would take down names of license plates, but I hadn’t heard what you’re enumerating here. Dodwell Yeah, because there’s a lot of apartments that are around there, and there’s probably four or five different apartments. If you would leave the bar— mostly for the guys, you know, they would leave. They would just stand there; it was like an intimidation thing. Either they had already bashed their 6 �car, or they were just wanted to stand there just to make sure that they were afraid, I guess. It was frightening. They would yell at you from the balconies and tell you—call you names and things like that. There, for a while, Zipper’s started losing some business because people were afraid to go. Belmonte Do you recall any instances where people and not just property were harmed? Dodwell I know that there were some fist fights and things like this, like some of the queens would come out and be drunk, and they would say something, and they would just start just fist fighting. That’s the only thing I saw myself. I know the police were called a lot. Of course, police came inside the bar all the time. They would just look at you, and they would harass you, they’d ask for your license. It was a really big deal. They did harass a lot. Belmonte Now, in your circle of friends, what did you and your lesbian and gay friends do outside of bars? Dodwell Went to each other’s houses, had parties. We didn’t really do a whole lot as, actually, as a group. We’d go out to eat sometimes, and sometimes we’d go to a movie or something, but no real planned activities. Of course, I was young. My gosh, I was a baby, so it was party all the time. That’s all I wanted to do. Belmonte You made a comparison of Tracy’s and Seeker’s Choice and said that Tracy’s was nicer. Tell me more about this bar—this is the first time I’ve heard about Tracy’s. Dodwell The clientele I think was a little nicer as far as—it wasn’t as rough of a crowd; at least I don’t think it was. Belmonte Mainly women? Dodwell Yes. Well, actually, there were half and half at Tracy’s. At Seeker’s Choice, it was a lot of women. A lot of—well, I remember older women without teeth, but (Laughter) I don’t know if that’s something to write about. (Laughter) Belmonte Oh yeah. Terry They had split clientele. [Inaudible] Older women, it’s like there’s this real age gap. [Inaudible] Belmonte It’s my impression, and you can correct me if you think this is wrong, that a pretty hardcore butch femme culture in the bars in Tulsa persisted pretty long past when it did in other places. In many cities, Buffalo, New York, for 7 �instance, this began to disappear by the late ’60s. It sounds to me like that culture was still in place in Tulsa pretty late into the ’80s. Dodwell Definitely. I know some people who are still stuck in that, so it’s— Oklahoma is really backwards with that. They’re catching up to the things in different cities with things like that. Belmonte Did you witness a lot of violence in these bars? Fights? Dodwell A few, yeah. A lot of jealous butch girlfriends, that somebody would look at their girl, and they’d go after them and try to be the man of the house and do whatever they needed to do to take care of that. I saw a few fights, mostly alcohol-induced. Belmonte How did this physically manifest itself? Were there very rigid codes of what you would wear or not wear or how you would act, or was it more of a kind of attitude sort of thing? Dodwell Yes, there was. I was told when I was first starting to go out—it jarred my memory; this is great—that if you had any amount of sized breasts, you know, like mine, if you had them, you were not a lesbian. (Laughs) I was told that many times. Belmonte By whom? Dodwell By butch women, the older butch women, mostly, saying that’s just not right. “You just can’t just have big boobs and be okay and be with us. You’re not one of us.” I’ve heard that many times. Things like if—I remember I used to have this smock thing or whatever, and it had some pink in it. I don’t classify myself as butch or femme; I can do either one, and I’ve always been like that. That was not—that was an issue with some people. “Pick one, what are you going to be? Butch or femme?” I can’t be butch because I have boobs. Okay, maybe I can be femme, but I have to wear a dress, and I don’t like dresses. I would wear this smock thing, and they would tell me that if you’re trying to be butch, it’s not going to work because you have a pink flower on this. It’s not going to work. Belmonte How did you find a middle ground here? It must have been personally quite challenging, really not feeling like you fit into either category here. Dodwell I always thought labels were silly and stupid, so I don’t know. I’ve always just been myself and said, “Okay, this is what you get, and if you don’t like it, then you can go away.” A lot of people went away, especially back then. If you didn’t do a lot of partying and a lot of drugs, and if you didn’t fit into this particular group of gay culture, or if you weren’t the butch or the femme, where did you go? A lot of times I didn’t go. I also went to Crash 8 �Landing, which I loved Crash Landing. It was on 5th and Lewis, and it had a real airplane inside. Belmonte It’s amazing you guys didn’t meet each other sooner. (Laughter) Terry We have friends in all of the same circles, and we knew a lot of the same people, which is really ironic that we had never met. Belmonte Small world. Dodwell The Crash Landing was a combination bar. Have you heard of that one? Belmonte No. Dodwell Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, they had every—I don’t know if it was every month or every other week, but it was like a women’s dance they would have. The person you get lots of history from for that, all the bar stuff, is Ms. Carol Brown. I think maybe Renee, hopefully you know Renee. She would be a wealth of information for you. Belmonte Great. At the end of the taping, I would love it if you guys give me some names of people you think might be potential interviewees. That would be great. Dodwell You got it. Crash Landing did have a lot of—it was a neat bar; it was a really big place. It was high energy dance stuff, whatever it was back then. Terry It was three stories. Belmonte Quite substantial. Dodwell Isn’t it a church now? I know they tore it down, maybe it was a parking lot of a church. Terry There was a bar on every level, and it was just a really cool place. They had the most irritating final song I have heard in my whole life. Do you remember it? It can get people out of the bars. They put [inaudible] constantly. It said, “Bye bye, see you later. Bye bye, see you later. Bye bye, see later.” It would drive you out of the bar. Belmonte I suppose that was its intent. (Laughter) Terry Yeah, probably. Belmonte Was Crash Landing a mixed bar too? 9 �Dodwell I think so. Yeah, mostly. Except when they had the women’s dances. Belmonte What were these women’s dances like? Dodwell Popular. Belmonte Can you estimate how many people would go? Dodwell I don’t know. I would say fifty maybe. It was a lot for back then, and it was—there were just quite a few. Belmonte When would this have been? Dodwell This would have been ’82 to ’86, probably. Two, three year period there, but it was a very popular bar. Belmonte What were the atmosphere of these dances like? Dodwell Pretty—I think they were pretty light, and real fun. People didn’t seem like they had the barriers like a lot of people in our community have today. It’s like they were maybe more trusting, or maybe more accepting, or something like that that was—it was okay to go into this place by yourself, and people would talk to you, you know, things like that. Now it’s a little different. There’s— Belmonte A different spin on it. Now, in conjunction with this butch femme roles, do you recall that there were sexual expectations that went with that too? Like if you were butch, there were certain things that you did and didn’t do and vice versa? Dodwell I think so. Yeah. The butch was the more aggressor sexually, even romantically. The femme was more the little wifey kind of thing, just kind of went along with everything that the butch wanted to do. That’s what I saw. I don’t know if it’s the same now or not. Belmonte Let’s say you wanted to go on a nice date that wasn’t at a bar. Were there any restaurants or places in town that were known as gay-friendly? Dodwell Absolutely not, no. Just your own home. Belmonte In your circle of friends, let’s talk about some of their experiences you might remember. Do you remember—well, let’s start with your own family. When did you come out to your own family, and how did they respond? Dodwell My father died before I could come out, but my mother—I came out after I had my son to her, and I had my son at nineteen. I came out to her after that, 10 �and it was really difficult for her at first, especially. She was very angry. Then it got better. She hated my first girlfriend with a passion. She just started getting better with everything. She just started understanding a little more, and then my nephew came out to her. My nephew was a drag queen, and he was very flamboyant. I think he lives in Dallas now, but she would help him get ready for drag shows, and she started wanting to do things. If PFLAG [Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] would have been available or there back then, my mother would have been right in the trenches with that. I know she would have. She slowly learned that we’re people, too, and it’s okay that I love somebody of the same sex, but it’s not about sex. My mom would—even before my mother died at a nursing home, and we were talking to the whole staff about things, my mom would say, “If you have a problem with lesbians, you need to tell me now because my daughter is one.” She’d out me all the time, but I took her to see Boy George; I took her to see The Village People. She went to one gay pride picnic. I think—so she was okay with it later on. Belmonte Sounds like she was more than okay with it. Do you recall other parents being at that picnic or was she the only one? Dodwell She was pretty—I think she was pretty much the only one. That’s when it was at Mohawk Park. Oh my gosh, she just loved it. She used to love the gay boys, oh my gosh. She came a long way from when I first told her. She always was afraid for me being beat up and things like this; she didn’t want that to ever happen. The rest of my family—my brother, my oldest brother, doesn’t—he has an issue with gay people, mainly because of my nephew. My nephew is just, “I’m in your face. I’m gay. Deal with it.” He’d been out for years, and it just kind of turned him off, so I can’t really blame him for that, I guess. The rest of my siblings—they know that my sister has a problem with it kind of, so it’s—I don’t have anybody really with open arms in my family. Of course, on my dad’s side, they’re all from Arkansas, so I mean, they don’t even want to talk to me. You know, that’s their loss. Belmonte What about your son? Dodwell My son is okay with it now. Belmonte Well, I mean, you must have had to come out to him pretty early in his life, I would guess. Dodwell Yeah, I did. Actually, it was more like fourteen when we talked about it. He was okay with that, too. He just wants me to be—he said, “I just want you to be loved, and I want you to be cared for and not be hurt.” That’s kind of what he looks at. He doesn’t really talk about it a whole lot; he’s a very funny kid. He’ll—he used to—oh my gosh, he used to borrow my car or my ex’s car, and he’d get in it, and he’d come back, and all the stickers would 11 �be taken off of the car. (Laughter) He’s like, “I don’t want to ride in your car; people are going to think I’m gay.” (Laughs) It’s like, “Fine, then meet me there.” He’s twenty-one now, so he’s a grown man. He’s doing his thing. I recently went through a divorce, a break-up, and he dealt with that okay, and you know, he’s still working on that, but he’s just—I think he accepts me. He just wants to make sure I’m safe. I’m okay. I’m happy. Belmonte You mentioned that you work for Sears. How long have you been with Sears? Dodwell I have been with Sears since January. They have the GALS program there; it’s the Gays and Lesbians of Sears. They also have the domestic partnership benefits. They’ve got diversity days. [Inaudible] (Laughs) Belmonte She’s not in the frame here. You have to wonder who she is. Dodwell Yeah, we have diversity days, and that’s toward the end of this month, where I guess we come up with activities or things to celebrate [inaudible]. Belmonte Now, have you encountered discrimination on any of your other jobs? Have you ever encountered harassment yourself in coming out of a bar? Tell me about some of that. Dodwell Coming out of a bar, no, I haven’t really. I’ve just witnessed other people having problems. I did at Woodland Hills Mall one time, when—let’s see, it was probably ’84—when I was with this other girl that—we were walking in the mall, and all of the sudden, all of these kids from, I guess, Broken Arrow or Bixby High School, whatever, they followed us out and started shoving us around and everything, calling us, you know, “you dyke,” and “you this,” and “you that.” That’s about the only negative thing, really. I mean, I’ve had people scream at me and say things, but not real bad. Of course, it’s gotten a lot better over the years, but I can’t think of anything else other than what happened at Woodland Hills; that was kind of scary. Belmonte Let’s talk about your jobs. Dodwell My jobs. I worked at the Tulsa Police Department; that was a real fun thing. I was an animal control officer in a man’s world, so I had to prove myself. I got lots of comments about being gay. “Where’s the lesbian in the house?” There would be a lot of comments. Through the police department, you had no protection, not back then you didn’t. Maybe they do now, I don’t know. I kind of doubt it. There were just—mostly the comments, they would—there was one time in my mailbox, they had shoved a tie in there, a man’s tie, and boxers, and things like that. That’s when I first started working there. Belmonte When was that? 12 �Dodwell From—let’s see, I quit in ’89, so I worked there four or five years. It was during that time, ’83. That was probably the worst of it. A lot of times I would get harassed by my boss, actually, at a part-time job that I had at a supermarket. He found out that I was a lesbian, and he was just all for finding somebody else to help him out. “Come on, let’s go and have a big ole three-way party.” Oh my god, I hate that place. Oh, god. That was awful. No, no, no. I don’t [inaudible] you. Okay? It just doesn’t happen. Belmonte Being a lesbian is not a package deal, sorry. Dodwell No, it’s not. (Laughter) Belmonte In your circle of friends, I’ve been told, for instance, that there was a man in the community who was pretty well-known in the bars who was murdered in Mohawk Park, and the crime went unsolved. Do you recall hearing anything about that case or anything else along that nature? Dodwell I had heard about it, and I—but I don’t know any of the details. I just knew that it happened, but I really don’t know anything. Belmonte Tell me about what some of your gay male friends had to say about their lives in this period. Where, for instance, did they go if they were looking for a sexual encounter? What were some of the bars that were— Dodwell Tim’s Playroom was big. A lot of their experiences as far as—just in the general Tulsa area, I guess—violence, a lot of violence, what I’ve heard. A lot of loneliness because really the only place to go to meet other people were at the bars at the time. If you didn’t drink, or you didn’t like to go to the bars, then you were out of luck for the most part. I know that they went to Turkey Mountain quite a bit. I don’t know if they went back in the ’80s, but I can’t recall [inaudible]. That was just for just like sex, nothing more than that. There might have been a few little groups that popped up here and there. There was a men’s supper club that went on forever. Belmonte Do you remember any of the men who were a part of that group? Dodwell Dennis Neill, I believe, knew about it or was a part of it. Belmonte I’ll have to ask him about that. Dodwell Yeah, see if he knows something. Belmonte What about “the fruit loop” in downtown? Did they ever talk about that? 13 �Dodwell I’ve heard of the fruit loop. I don’t know that very well. I don’t know of that. That might have been maybe before my time. I don’t know. Belmonte It sounds like that went pretty far back. Dodwell Yeah, it did, but I have heard about it. Belmonte You mentioned the gay picnic. Did you go to any of the meetings of TOHR when it was first founded? Dodwell Oh yeah. Belmonte Tell me about what made you do that, and what those meetings were like, and whether you found that a positive experience? Dodwell Yeah, I started with TOHR, I want to say ’84, ’85. It was founded in ’83, right? Belmonte Right. Dodwell It was already going by then. Mostly men. I think my first meeting I ever went to—that’s when I first met Dennis Neill—was that I was the only woman there. For the most part, I felt accepted, but it was definitely lacking females. (Laughs) They just weren’t there. Either they didn’t know about it or what, or maybe they didn’t feel welcome. Belmonte Were they still meeting in the library at this point? Dodwell Yes. They were meeting at the library. I had talked to Dennis about, “Gosh, we can do this or do that,” or “Gosh, we…” He’s like, “Well, come on aboard!” so I started getting involved with that about a year later. Belmonte What were some of the things you did? Dodwell I was the helpline coordinator, and that’s when we moved and got the office space at 41st and Harvard. I did that for four years, three or four years. Belmonte Describe that experience. What were the calls like, what kind of training went into— Dodwell Oh my gosh, there was a lot of training that was involved. There was tons of volunteers. There were people knocking at the door to volunteer. Belmonte What types of professions were people in? 14 �Dodwell Doctors, lawyers, laymen, I mean, just anything. All kinds of people. We had chefs, and we had counselors; we had unemployed. We had lots of different walks of life, and that’s what’s needed for that kind of thing. We had people who had never done a helpline or anything like that, and so when they would come aboard, they would be terrified. What happens if they get a phone call and somebody is wanting to commit suicide or wanting to do this—and which we had those calls, and we had to talk people either out of it or try to get help to them as soon as possible. It was a lot of trading involved. The phones rang off the hook. It was constantly busy, especially in the evening because people in the community found out that we started having the helpline from eight to ten every night. Oh my gosh, it was just incredible. Belmonte What were some of the more memorable calls you had? Dodwell I had a phone call from a man—actually a straight man who felt that he was a woman. Back then, transgenderism was just not really talked about a whole lot; there was not a lot of education on it. We had books and brochures but not a whole lot of experience with it. He was—I was on the phone with this man for over an hour. He was—didn’t know where to go, how he was going to fit in, and trying to find the resources to help this person was almost impossible. The nearest resource I had was Dallas. While I had him on the phone, I start looking at different resources that we had from different states that surrounded us, and the nearest one I had was Dallas. I remember this guy because he called back, and about two weeks later, he called these other people and said he was better, and he felt much better about the situation, and he was happy and that he might be on the road to recovery for whatever reason. We’d get the calls that—you know, from the kids, they would—that’s normal. A lot of the volunteers would get upset over it. It’s like, they’re just curious. I mean, yeah, if they’re calling you and saying they’re going to kill you, yeah, that’s a different story, but they’re not. Belmonte They would call just to prank call. Dodwell Right. There was a woman who called when I was training somebody, and she was being—she was locked in her bedroom, and she was being beat by her lover. You could hear in the background the sounds of her being hit and the screaming. It was probably the most disturbing phone call that I had ever gotten. The poor guy, it was his first day that he had started working there, just trying to calm her down, but it wasn’t going to make her situation any better unless she was going to get out of there. I was able to get her to get to the phone and pick up the—she threw it on the bed, I guess, and she got the phone, and I got her address. I was able to call the police. That’s probably the worst. There were a whole lot more needy calls if you want to say it because back then is when AIDS was really coming out, and really, people 15 �were being, “What’s this gay disease?” It was a really big deal. Had a lot of phone calls about health issues, and it’s really hard. They’d have to call the Center for Disease Control for the most part because we didn’t have all of that information that they needed. Everybody knew that it was a gay disease, so we also dealt with that, all the different HIV and AIDS calls. Some of them were just—people were just bored, or they’re lonely. I know that there are still people out there like that who need a helpline, and I hope that we do it again. That was a very good experience for me. Belmonte We’re actually talking about reactivating it, trying to keep it going through the day, actually. Dodwell Good, it’s very much needed. Oh, god. Belmonte People call all the time, Dodwell Yes, they do. Belmonte Those pained coming out calls in particular. Dodwell Yeah, the coming out ones. Oh yeah. Oh gosh, yeah. Belmonte You’ve alluded several times to drug and alcohol use in the community. What are your impressions of the role that it’s played in gay life in Tulsa? Do you think the situation is similar now, or has it changed over time? Dodwell Well, even back then, I think the drug use—I don’t really think it was any different than in the straight community. We might have used a little more poppers, but I don’t think there was that much of a difference. As far as the role that it played, I know that, especially when HIV came up so strong and they finally realized what it was, there were so many people who continued to want to use drugs and knew that it could lower your immune system, or it could do some damage to your system for whatever reason. I think as far as—there’s a lot of people in the straight community who think that we’re all about drugs and sex, and maybe they need to look in their own backyard. Belmonte Right. Let’s backtrack a little bit and talk about your nephew. It sounds like he was quite flamboyant. It sounds like you might have had some familiarity with the drag community in Tulsa, which is not something I’ve heard much about. Dodwell Really? Belmonte Could you tell me—well, I have some interviews scheduled, people that are definitely going to fill that gap, but it sounds like you have been seeing drag 16 �shows and knowing the people that perform drag for quite a long time. Care to elaborate on that? Dodwell Sure. I came out during the times when Trudy Tyler used to be real big, real big. Patty and Tuna Melt were real big. Have you heard of them? And Miko, yes. Miko. Belmonte Nico with an N? Dodwell With an M. Belmonte Miko. Okay. Dodwell Yeah, I’m real close to the drag community even today. I think they’re an important part of our community. Sure, they’re dramatic; they’re supposed to be. (Laughs) Early on, the drag community was very small. Now it’s very big in Tulsa. It’s even bigger in different states, but it’s much bigger now than I ever imagined it to be. I just think that they played a really important part in our community and the way that—I don’t know if the mainstream society will ever see them as being okay, but that’s their problem. Belmonte Tell me some about what you think that role is and has been historically? When was the first time you went to a drag club? Dodwell Oh gosh, it was Zipper’s, and it was the early ’80s, ’83 or ’84, something like that. I just fell in love with them. I just did, and I don’t know why. (Laughs) I still don’t know why. (Laughs) I thought they had attitude, and most of them had talent; most of them did. As far as their role in historic— maybe just from their sheer talent and guts and strength, they’re very strong, strong people. Maybe when they just have a wig on, but at least they’re strong then. Maybe if they take the wig off, it’s not so much, but at least they get the point across. I’ve been to drag queen car washes that used to be on Peoria quite a bit, and they would be in full drag in the heat. Can you imagine? Heat and heels: no, no, no. (Laughs) They donated all their money to whatever, and most of the time, most of the drag shows—unless it’s a competition or a pageant or something—they donate their money to causes in the community. They pick certain ones to do that with. There’s always some kind of a drag queen war going on in between each other, but they all do the same thing. Belmonte What were some of the other bars that became known for drag? Dodwell There was Zipper’s, and Tracy’s was a big drag bar, definitely. For a short time, and I don’t know why, but TNT’s was a drag bar. It wasn’t all men, but it was kind of a combination of drag queen and king. They did it for a while, and then of course, there are plenty more now. I know that there’s 17 �another one that was really big into drag, but I can’t remember. Of course, The Jewel Box, (Laughs) yes, with their shag carpet, and The Bamboo. That’s it. There may be more, but those are the ones that I remember the most that people knew that they could call and say, “When are you having your next drag show?” and all of that. Belmonte When was the first time you remember hearing about AIDS in Tulsa? Dodwell While I was working on the helpline. I was on the board, and we got something. Doug Hartson was president at the time, and we got something from the newspaper or somewhere, but we had an emergency board meeting about it. They were talking about this gay disease, and we need to—and also from Nancy McDonald because she was working on something up there too. Just kind of a combination of a couple people. Belmonte How did the community mobilize in response to AIDS? Did it mobilize? Dodwell Well, I think the leaders of the community did, and the health department, of course. Once the news media got a hold of it, that’s all we needed. It was just “Get away from gay people,” “Oh, he’s gay. Yeah, he’s got AIDS. I’m sure.” We had the stigma just probably like every other community did. Ours might have lasted a little longer; there are people still very uneducated over that. Belmonte Did you ever go to follies review or any of the—what were some of the fundraisers along those lines that you recall that helped raise money for AIDS? Dodwell Went to a lot of drag shows. They did that. I went to the follies, and I went to two or three of them at least, maybe more, that the money that was raised went to some sort of research, or through Tulsa Cares, or something like the HIV helping agencies and things like that. Mostly the bars, the bars really kicked in on a lot of things. “We’ll have these shows, no problem. We’ll lower the drink prices so people will come in, and do this.” I think as a community as a whole, I know everybody was terrified. I know they were. They didn’t know what to do, and so they were doing everything they could to maybe make it better. If the money helped, then great. Belmonte Were any of your personal acquaintances or friends victims of the disease? Dodwell Oh yeah. I’ve been to more funerals than I’d prefer to be. My very first friend who died from AIDS is Eric Guinness, and he was a very good friend of mine. When his partner—when he was dying, and his partner took him to the hospital, it was the St. Francis’ in Broken Arrow, took him over there. He was throwing up blood, and he was just really bad. They would not touch 18 �him because they knew he had AIDS. They would not touch him. They told him he needed to go to the one in Tulsa, the hospital in Tulsa. Belmonte Do you recall what year that was? Dodwell That was ’89 or ’90. Belmonte Tell me if you can recall any other instances along those lines: people’s family reactions, people whose partners might have then had clashes with family. Do you recall any instances like that? Dodwell Are you talking about for AIDS? Belmonte For AIDS in particular, with hospital, medical authorities. Dodwell Medical authorities, oh yeah. It was a real big deal. Of course, it was full gown, and facial, and gloves, and everything for everybody that would enter the room, including the doctor and nurses. I was an HIV care coordinator for OSU, and this—just recently I guess. I’d go up to the hospital—even today, would go to the hospitals here, TRMC or any of these hospitals around. It’s awful, but especially like St. John’s and St. Francis, they just don’t know how to treat it; they don’t want to treat it. I don’t know why, whatever, maybe it’s a religious thing. I do know that TRMC is the most compassionate, from my experience, with people like that. As far as reactions, they just get treated differently. Whenever I was going before to my friends and seeing them in the hospital and to now, it’s getting a little better, maybe because education is better, I hope. Back then, even the doctors and the nurses were not as educated as what they should be. They would never think of kissing somebody on the lips who had AIDS. I mean, they just don’t understand what it’s about. Belmonte When did you become an HIV/AIDS educator? Dodwell Let’s see. When I went to work for OSU, that’s how I started— Belmonte OSU Medical School? Dodwell Yeah, off Southwest Boulevard. It was a grant-funded position, so it was a short-term thing. I started doing that four years ago, almost four years ago. I worked there two and a half, three years, two and a half years, I guess. I did testing, HIV testing and counseling. Did the statistics and everything as far as the patients that were coming in. I learned, and I saw a lot. A lot of times they’ll come in to be tested, and they’re straight. It’s like, “I can’t have AIDS because I’m not a homosexual,” so I have to educate them and talk to them, and it takes forever. It was important to me that if they did, if they were positive, they needed to be educated just for the safety of their own 19 �self. I saw a lot in the community. Some people who get AIDS, they have a whole different look at life after they get over all the pissed off stage and everything else, and they kind of get down to it. It’s like, “Okay. Well, let’s see. I’ve got this much to live or not to live or whatever. I’m going to make a difference.” Hopefully they continue to do that, and most of them did. Belmonte Have you had much experience with members of the black gay and lesbian community in Tulsa? Dodwell Very little. Very little. Belmonte Do you have any theories why there may be such a—it’s a tremendous gap in this community along this line. Do you have any impressions as to why that might be? Dodwell Do you really want to know? Belmonte Yeah. Dodwell The ones that I do know—the ones that I’ve met and talked to, I’ve asked them—especially when I was on the board, I would say, “Why are you coming to be on the board? Have you volunteered? Bring some of your friends. We have a resource here, and this is really good.” It was like, “I don’t have enough money for them.” That’s been the rumor for years. What do you do? I say, “No, no, you have this talent. You have this, and you have this. You can do it,” but it’s going to take more than just one or two people to go out and say, “Come on in. Come in and talk to us. Join us here.” Other than being a cultural difference, I don’t know what else it would be. Belmonte Do you think that class gap that you’re alluding to affects a lot of white members of the gay and lesbian community? Dodwell You bet it does. Belmonte Tell me more about that because this is not the first time I’m hearing this charge made at TOHR. (Laughter) Dodwell I have no real issues with TOHR. I believe in it. I want to continue to believe in it. There are a lot of people who are believing right now that it’s an elitist society. As far as—you have to be somebody to be a part of it. I’ve been a part of TOHR since the ’80s. Belmonte For twenty years. Dodwell Yeah. I don’t think I have much of a balance on my checkbook. You know, I don’t have that much money, but I believe in the community, and I believe 20 �in the people in the community. But from what I have heard—I get a lot of emails from people just telling me things that they’ve experienced like, “I went into TOHR. I went into the office, and they looked at me like I was just this bum, and I wasn’t going to be accepted, and I didn’t feel right. They’re all walking around with suits and briefcases.” Anyway, they would say this, and I’d write back and just like, “Give them another chance and go back up there. Try to see what you can do.” There are a lot of people right now—I cannot believe I’m telling you this—but there are just a lot of people that have lost any kind of hope for TOHR. You know that. Belmonte I do know that. As someone who’s on the board, it’s something I care about and hope to change. One of the reasons why I founded this project is I want everyone’s voices to be heard as part of this. Dodwell Right. It’s important to me that people understand that TOHR is what you make it, or the community is what you make it, period. I may not agree with everything that they do, but who does? That’s crazy. Everybody has their own agenda and whatever. I just—there’s a lot of people on the bandwagon right now that are just saying, “Oh, they did this, and they’re doing this. They’re doing that.” One thing that I have preached and preached, and you know, it’s [inaudible] thing. I’ve said, “Keep whining because that’s all you’re going to get is whine. That’s it. Do something about it. Get up off your butt and go down there and volunteer and do something about it. Stop your frickin’ whining.” I will continue to say that. If things work out—if a building is built, and these people still think this way, it doesn’t always— people don’t always come when you build the building. You have to get it going. It takes some time. Belmonte It sounds like you’ve done a lot of different things over the years for the community. You mentioned HIV and the hotline. What are some of the other things that you have done as a volunteer in the community? Dodwell I was on the board. I’ve been on the board twice. The first time was the helpline, and the second time I was the programming. Belmonte What year was this? Dodwell When I was on the board the first time, it was 1985 to ’89. Yes. Belmonte Do you remember who else was on the board with you at that time? Dodwell Penny Humphrey, Doug Hartson, Dwight Kealiher, Bonnie—and I can’t remember her last name. I think she was with Penny. Steve—I can’t remember his name. Anyway, most of the people—I’m sure people who know them will see this—McCurly, Steve McCurly. I think Cynthia Corberay, I think. 21 �Belmonte Cynthia what? Dodwell Corberay, I believe. Yeah. Belmonte Tell me what you felt—what was the board like in that first period? What was TOHR like? Dodwell The board was actually fun. There was a lot of energy, a lot of motivation to get people involved. There were some problems in the sidelines, just like any other board, but they were, for the most part, pretty positive. We had a lot of speakers at our meetings. We did our best to plan events and to increase membership and then members coming in to the center. We had a little—a small library, and I think we had a few videos people could check out, but not a lot. The main focus of the actual office was the helpline. It was a big deal. It was really kind of nice to be on the board and just to see—or to be a part of TOHR at that time. There were a lot of changes that were going on: some negative, some positive. Belmonte Give me some examples. Dodwell The negatives were changing with AIDS and having to make those precautions. Changes with—as far as positive—just more people being interested in what’s going on. We have more—we had garage sales and things to raise money for different events that were coming up. The follies were real big, and of course gay pride. The picnics were really big too. Belmonte Tell me about those. What was the first one of those that you went to? Dodwell I went to my first picnic—it was at Mohawk. Belmonte How did you guys get the word out in the community? Dodwell Through the bars, for the most part, and through—some through TOHR but mostly through the bars. Lots of signs. That was when the bars are the ones really who put it on. People from TOHR and other people came to it, but they would cook hot dogs, and they’d have hamburgers. It was just—they’d have their kids there and whatever. It would be a big, ole—well, by the end of the day, it was a drunk fest, but it was fun! (Laughter) Belmonte Do you remember how many people would go to those? Dodwell Hundreds. It was pretty big. Never really had any trouble at Mohawk Park that I know of. Went there a couple of summers a couple of times, two that I know of, maybe three. Then it was moved to another park on the west side 22 �of Tulsa, and we were there for a couple of years. I think from there it went to Veteran’s Park. Belmonte Do you—you remember ever going to the Black and White parties? Dodwell Oh yeah. Belmonte Tell me what those were like. Dodwell Well, the first Black and White I went to, The Village People were there to perform. That’s when I took my mother. That was a lot of fun. People were in there—I mean, it was packed. It was at the fairgrounds; it was packed. It was every combination of black and white you can imagine was there. Some people were in tuxes, some people had limos they’d come in, and they would—of course that’s when I think the bar—it was an open bar, you didn’t have to pay or something. I can’t remember, but it was a real big deal because they had to limit your drinks. The music was great, and it was just—it was a huge success. I went to three of them. I do remember, however, whenever the Black and White used to be by invitation only, and if you didn’t know somebody who was going or who was a part of it, then you couldn’t get in. I remember that. I was so mad because I thought, “Why?” Belmonte It changed from an invitation-only event to one that was publicized, and you could just pay at the door? Is that what you’re telling me? Dodwell Yeah, several years later. There, for a while it was like, “You got Black and White too? How did you do that? Who do you know?” It was a big deal. Belmonte Did you go to any of the Harwelden? Dodwell No, I did not. No. Belmonte Which remains invitation-only. Okay. Dodwell Yeah. Belmonte You were on the TOHR board. What made you get off the board the first time? Dodwell I think I had some personal issues with my family that I had to pay attention to that I wasn’t able to do it. I was still involved; I just stepped down from the—well, from the helpline the first time. The second time that I was on the board, I was helping take care of an elderly family member, my ex’s. Belmonte What year was this? 23 �Dodwell This was just a little over two years ago. I wasn’t going to have time. Well, they were also phasing out the programming, and so basically I wasn’t going to be on the board anymore. I thought, “This is probably a good time for me to step down.” Belmonte What was the rationale behind that? Dodwell Let’s see. Belmonte I know some of this might be sensitive in terms of personalities. Dodwell No, that’s okay! People are people. They’ve got to do what they’ve got to do. We had a training with the board. It was downtown, and it was a whole day training. At that training, they decided to go ahead and eliminate the programming of TOHR. I thought, “Okay, where does this leave me?” They wanted to do it until either they got a building or until they got things a little more straightened out with legalities. We had issues—we had so many programs that we wanted to work. We had one for the elderly where we could go and check on our lesbian and gay elderly people and make sure they were okay, run to the store if we needed to or whatever, and we had volunteers to do that. Issues came up with—“What if they didn’t have insurance on their car? Is it going to come back to TOHR because they’re volunteering in TOHR?” It was just—it just kept building and building and building, and it got to the point where it was like, “Okay, wait. We need to stop. We can’t have these programs anymore.” We had the Rainbow Families, which was huge, and they met at the center, and then they met in other different places. There were some people who were uncomfortable with children being in the center. Mainly—there were some of the transgendered people who were a little concerned because they didn’t want to confuse them, because a lot of times they would be dressing in one room, and they didn’t want the kids to run into the room and things like that. It was just—it was kind of a legal thing. They wanted to have everything written and drawn up, and they wanted to have enough volunteers to run those programs. We didn’t at the time. People were dropping out of TOHR just right and left because of whatever they disagreed with or whatever. Belmonte What were some of those reasons? Do you recall? Dodwell Most of the reasons were—they felt like—they would volunteer information; they would say, “Okay, I have an idea. Why don’t we do this or this or this?” and then someone on the board or whatever would just say, “Well, that’s a stupid idea.” Or, they would make time to come to our board meeting, which usually was like five hours long. 24 �Belmonte Still is. (Laughs) Dodwell They would make time to go, and they would sit there during the whole meeting. It’s like “No, we need to get them out of here and listen to what they have to say.” When they would listen to what they had to say, nobody else would respond to it. They would say, “Well, okay. We’ll look at it.” They would leave the room, and as soon as they would, they would just turn the paper over and go, “Okay, next.” They wouldn’t about it. They wouldn’t even think about an idea or a problem or something like that. There were a lot of emotions involved whenever I was involved the last time I was on the board. As far as changes and people getting hurt or feeling like they weren’t being listened to or that “Oh, it’s just like it was before. You’ve got to have a lot of money. You’ve got to be a man before you’re in TOHR.” I don’t believe that myself, really, but you know… Belmonte This was in the—this period you’re talking about now, be more chronologically specific. Dodwell Chronologically specific. About three years ago. Belmonte Was this when Carrie and Greg were the president—who was president during this period? Dodwell Brent. Belmonte Brent. Okay. Dodwell Yes, Brent was, and Carrie was President Emeritus. There were issues even there. Greg was still on the board, too. Belmonte Right. They were—this was when Dee was president very briefly, and Brent came up. Dodwell Yes, I was on the board then, too. Belmonte I’m sure there was some fallout in the wake of that. Dodwell Yeah, there was. I will say something, though. I will say that I don’t know what Dee did. I don’t know what she did, but it was—considering the time I have known about TOHR and the things that TOHR has done, she is the only person who has every brought that many people into the center, in my opinion, in history of TOHR. I don’t know how she did it. I know she probably did some things, and maybe she shouldn’t have, but she brought the community together more than I have seen anybody else. I don’t even—I don’t know Dee all that well, but I just know that I wish we could do that again because we were having people—we had waiting lists for people to 25 �get a space at the center. There were that many people there. It was just incredible. You’d go into the center, and you’d have to go down the hall and squeeze through people and stuff; they’re everywhere. I just wanted to say that. Belmonte That’s good to know. Bought all of her volunteer mobilization policies. (Laughter) Dodwell No kidding. Belmonte That’s one thing that’s very interesting about being a historian: there are many sides of the same event. I’m sure that Dee’s take on this would differ from others. Dodwell It might even differ from mine. (Laughs) Belmonte Right. Were you involved on the board when they started having the gay pride march? Dodwell You mean the… Belmonte The actual march that precedes the festival. Dodwell Yeah. Well, was I? No, I wasn’t on the board when they first did it. No, I was not. Belmonte Okay. We talked about the origins of that some. Oh! Let’s talk about your alter ego, Dyke Divine! How could we not talk about that? How long have you done this? Did you do it before email? Tell me some about the history of Dyke Divine. How could I forget that? Oh my goodness. Dodwell (Laughs) I’ve been doing the Dyke Divine thing for a little over six years, roughly. How it started was my mother got really sick, and I needed an outlet over something. I was depressed, and upset, and I didn’t really know what to do, and so I started to write. There was a guy named David Jennings, a real asshole—oh, sorry. Anyway. Belmonte That’s okay. (Laughter) There’s profanity on it elsewhere. Dodwell Okay. He did something called GayTulsa.org. I was starting to read his stuff, and it was like, oh my gosh, he was horrible. He was cutting down the bars and all this. I thought he was very funny, but some of the stuff was like, “Man, that’s going to get you killed!” Well, I started writing to him, and as I did that, he said, “If you’ve got something to say, why don’t you write for me?” “Okay then.” I just started doing that, and I started just being myself and writing about things and people. Sometimes I did bar reviews, and 26 �usually that got me death threats. I started with the community and talking about those kind of things. Belmonte Do you have hard copies of a lot of these things? Dodwell You bet I do. Belmonte Would you be willing to donate copies of them to the project? Dodwell Sure, you bet. Belmonte Great. We’ll talk about that in the future. Dodwell I just started to get emails. I mean, I would open my email, and I’d have thirty, forty a day. It was like, oh my gosh, it’s like, “When are you going to write again? When are you going to write again?” He’d post all of my articles and things, and I’d try to write every other day. Then people started writing, just like, “You know, you really helped. You helped me.” It’s like, “I can’t get enough of you.” Belmonte What type of things would you write about? Dodwell Sometimes I would write about breakups. I went through a really—well, it should have been a better breakup than what it was. Belmonte Isn’t that always the case, though? Dodwell Everybody tried to help. I wrote this really, really, really, really bad article about people minding their own frickin’ business. It was a hit, (Laughs) and I just—I didn’t stop. I think part of it, I was angry about my mom. I didn’t want her to be sick, but it was a real good release for me. I never mentioned anybody’s names, and most of the time—most of my articles have a lot to do with something I’ve either experienced personally, or I know personally somebody else who has done it, but I don’t use other people’s names. Sometimes it’s like, give me a break. It’s like the whining thing. I wrote about that. It’s like, you know, just shit or get off the pot. Come on. I don’t believe that people—maybe I say things—and I’ve heard this from a lot of people, but I say things that most people don’t, or never would want to say to anybody else in their life, because I try to tell people how it is. I try to do it. I love to write. Then I figured out that I had something to say to the community, and they were listening. Oh my god, they were listening to me. (Laughs) Belmonte Thirty, forty emails a day, boy, that’s a lot of time to invest in— 27 �Dodwell Yeah, and it got more. I got a whole lot more. Then I finally got my own domain, and I have my own site now in which I do all my own stuff. Oh man. Belmonte Did you teach yourself how to do all of the web design and everything? Dodwell Yeah. Belmonte You started building this rather amazing email database. How many people do you think are in that list now? Dodwell I have 2,800 people on my list. Belmonte That’s impressive. Dodwell (Laughs) It’s a lot. Yeah, it’s about 2,800. Belmonte Mostly women? Dodwell Combination. A lot of straight people and just people who have said, “Put me on the email list. I want that.” Belmonte What do you do? You do a weekly newsletter, postings, what do you use this list for mainly? Dodwell To give information out about things that are going on in the community. I don’t use it for things—that other email that was going around. I might send that to one or two people but not the community. It’s usually community events. I don’t know, just—I believe that these—I don’t know. I kept telling my ex, I said, “How in the world are they—it’s like they’re not working or sleeping or something. It’s like they’ve emailed me two, three times a day.” I didn’t know what to do with all that. Boy, let me tell you: it gets your head really big. I had to really watch it. (Laughs) Belmonte That’s clearly serving a need. Dodwell Yeah, I’m glad I am. It makes me feel good, makes me feel really good. Terry You’ve got a big gay pride parade, and she wore a t-shirt, and on the back it said “Dyke Divine.” People would walk up and go, “Oh man, I love your website!” Belmonte That’s great. In some ways, it strikes me as you’ve just taken the helpline work you did digital. 28 �Dodwell Yes. Then I’ll get an email that will say “searching for help.” I’m like, “Oh god, here we go.” It’s like, “Okay.” Sometimes it’s something real basic, and sometimes it’s, “I need to get out of this abusive situation,” or “I just left my husband. I know I’m a lesbian, but he’s going to kill me.” There’s just—I can’t stop it because now people depend on it. It took me a while to figure that out. I was just like, “Oh, they don’t pay attention.” The very first—two prides ago, maybe three, I was DJ’ing at the picnic. It was when, right in the middle of the ole Dyke Divine thing going, and girls would come up and they’d always be like, “Where’s Dyke Divine?” They would come up to the picnic thing; they’d come up to my little booth, and they’d go, “Can you sign my shirt?” (Laughs) “Sure,” and I’d dot my I’s. (Laughter) It’s been a lot of fun. It really has. I’m glad it’s helped some people. Belmonte That’s great. I think I have covered a lot of ground with you here, and I certainly appreciate your time, both of your time. Unless you have anything you’d like to add … Dodwell I do have one thing I’d like to add. I want to tell you a small story about—it was Christmastime, and we did what’s called a fairy tree at the center. It was for people who had some kids or knew people who had kids that might need some help at Christmas. The whole community would get together, and they would buy gifts. They would bring them to the—instead of an angel tree, we called it a fairy tree. Anyway, we were there one night, and a whole bunch of us were there, and there was a guy that came in. He looked like just this big, ole, burly—this bald-headed boy; he was just tough-looking. He said, “Is this TOHR?” and I said “Yes it is.” He said, “I’ve got some toys for you. You may want to come out and get them.” I thought, “I don’t even know this guy. Okay.” I went out, and he did. His whole back end of his truck was full of toys. We were on our way out there, and he said, “I can’t use them anymore,” and he would bring the toys. He starts bringing them in and all this. On the last load, he’s bringing them in; he starts to cry. He said, “You want to know why I’m doing this?” I said, “Okay.” He said, “I just came from”—he had just came from his parents’ house, and I guess his—not his parents, his oldest daughter’s house. His oldest daughter would not let him give all these gifts. He had four grandchildren he had never met. She would not let him see them, or give them gifts, or even leave the gifts for them because he was gay. He was in tears. This big man put the sack down, and he just grabbed me and just was crying. He said, “I don’t know what I would have done if you all would not have been open.” That is why we need [inaudible], and that was why we need [inaudible]. Belmonte That’s a pretty poignant way to end this, and I appreciate your time. This concludes this interview. 29 �------- End of interview ------- 30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Anna Dodwell Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 1, 2004 Subject The topic of the resource Anna Dodwell Oral History Project Interview from August 1, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on August 1, 2004. Anna was born on September 7th, 1963, in Tulsa. She attended public schools in Tulsa. Around 1983, she became aware of Oklahomans for Human Rights, Tulsa Chapter, [predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality] through her contact with its Helpline. She recalls the bar life around this time and other aspects of the Tulsa LGBTQ+ community. She became an active volunteer with OHR and then its successor organization Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, serving on the board and active participant with the Helpline. Through Oklahoma State University, she became a HIV/AIDS educator. She wrote the highly popular “Dyke Divine.” She discusses the various challenges facing the organization and the “class” divide within the community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anna Dodwell, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV education Anna Dodwell bar life Dyke Divine helpline HIV HIV Education HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OHR OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU TOHR TOHR helpline transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Bill Bissey Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s November 19, 2025, interview. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Bill was born on July 6, 1932, in Clay County, Illinois and passed on April 10, 2019, in Tulsa. He served in the Air Force and moved with his Tulsa-born wife from Illinois to Tulsa in 1956. Following a divorce, he moved to Houston for his job and entered an eighteen-year relationship until his partner developed HIV and died in 1996. When he returned to Tulsa, he was active with the Prime Timers, the social organization for gay and bisexual men. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 18, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bill Bissey, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center Bill Bissey HIV HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Prime Timers Primetimers transcript video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/2ba0854d31555f052589ee6f8f30d589.pdf c075226804ee57c66ba45d915a484f5e PDF Text Text OKLAHOMANS FOR EQUALITY OkEq History Project – Oral History Series Interview of Bill Francisco conducted by Toby Jenkins on September 13, 2011 Bill Francisco – Born September 5th, 1933, Passed December 25, 2024 Jenkins I'm Toby Jenkins, Executive Director of Oklahomans for Equality, and here we are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on September 13, 2011, for our Vintage Series, where we capture the stories of those who lived our history and made history. They came out, and we don't want them to have to go back in and keep their stories silent. So today we've got Bill Francisco, who will be my guest of honor, and we're going to find out about what Tulsa was like in the period of life that he lived here, and he lived in some other places and witnessed some very significant events associated with our community and the struggle for equality. Welcome, Bill. Are you excited to be here? Francisco Oh, absolutely. I understand that you just celebrated a birthday. Yes, I did. Do you really want to know? Yes. I'm 80 years old, September the 5th. September the 5th. Well, happy birthday, Bill. We welcome you today, and you've lived now seven decades on planet Earth. That's right. Any regrets? A few, but we forgot about those. Oh, you forgot about those? 1 �Yes, absolutely. I want to start a little bit today and talk about your early childhood and a little bit about what Tulsa was like in those days, and then we'll move through to some of the most recent things in your life where you've been honored by your own community, and we'll talk. I want to know some dirt on some people, so I'll be asking you some of those questions, and then I want to hear some secrets that maybe nobody else, because inquiring minds, want to know . Uh-oh. I'm in trouble already, aren't I? You were born what year? 1931. 1931, so that would have been in the middle of the Depression. That's right. I was a Depression baby. And you were born in Oklahoma? I was born in Oklahoma on a dirt farm right outside of Catoosa. Okay, born at home? Born at home. All right. Tell us a little bit about your parents. My parents were Portuguese. Portuguese, so that's what Francisco is? Francisco is the last name in the Portuguese. Francisco is a first name in Italian, but in Portuguese, it is the last name. The last name. Yeah, right. And so they were farmers. They were dirt farmers. Dirt farmers. Yes. And now did they raise their produce, and then they bring it to town and sell it? Is that kind of what they did, like drug farmers? Kind of like that. Yes. Now, where did you go to school? 2 �I went to, I guess, five grade schools. Okay. Here in Tulsa. In Tulsa. Yeah, yeah. Eventually, they moved into Tulsa into an apartment. Okay. And we went from apartment to apartment all until I was the sixth grade. Sixth grade. So I've been to practically every elementary school in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Now, what elementary schools did you attend that the buildings would still be standing? Several of those have probably been. Yes. Lincoln School, which is now Lincoln Plaza on there on 15th. In Cherry Street area? 15th and Cherry Street. It's Jason's Deli. I danced in Jason's Deli. And it was an elementary school. And it was an elementary school. All right. My first one was at Roosevelt. No, not Roosevelt. Longfellow. Okay. Longfellow. So it's now demolished. And there's the Native American Health Clinic there in Sixth and Peoria. Sixth and Peoria . That's where Longfellow Junior High School was. All right. So you attended elementary there. Yeah. Did you have some interest? Did you play sports or were you interested in music or dance? I didn't know what I was interested in. But I did become interested in the theater In the theater. 3 �Yes. And what was your first exposure to that? My first exposure was I was elected to play the part of the little boy, the pioneer woman, the little boy from Ponca City, Oklahoma. They was having some statue things for a benefit for the school. Right. And I was about this tall. And they said, oh, you'd be great as the little boy and the pioneer woman. You know? So I was all done up like a little pioneer boy. But it was all statues. And I had to stand still for three minutes without moving. And how old were you? Seven years old. Seven years old. Okay. Can you imagine a seven-year-old kid standing still for that long? What I did was I wanted to do such a good job that I held my breath for three minutes. It's a wonder you didn't pass out. And I almost passed out. You're right. I almost passed out. But I did it. And they thought it was great. They thought it was great. But I got interested then in the theater. In the theater. Because I love applause. Well, I think we all do. You like being the center of attention. It wasn't that. It was just the appreciation of the people who acknowledged it. Hey, he's okay. Now, did you ever do any dancing in those days? Oh, no. No. No. I didn't start dancing until I was in high school. 4 �Okay. I was a musician before that. What instrument did you play? Well, it's a bastard instrument now, but it was the accordion. Okay. And I think we have a picture of you. You're awful dressed up here. Oh, yeah. Now, there you are playing the accordion. Wow. Very distinguished. Looked like you should have been on the Ed Sullivan show. Well, this was taken in Chicago. At Lawrence Welk. That's right. But they were better than I was. But this was a competition at the Palmer House in Chicago, I think it was. The Palmer Hotel, I guess it was. And we went up there, a group of accordionists or accordion players, or whatever they're calling them, and went up there and competed in the national accordion. Now, where did you go to high school? I went to high school at Will Rogers. Will Rogers High School. And I think I have a picture of you. Looks like you might have your letter sweater on. Oh, yeah. I don't even remember this picture. Okay. Somebody sent this to me, and I said, are you sure that's me? Yep, that's you. No, I was a cheerleader. You were a cheerleader for Will Rogers High School? I was a cheerleader for Will Rogers High School. In those days, Will Rogers High School, is it in the present building? Oh, absolutely. Now, that was probably in the days when it was a brand new building, and it was the top design. I was in the 10th graduating class. 10th graduating 5 �class. And they called it Will on the Hill, because it was way out in the country, on the hill out there. All right. They called it Will on the Hill. Now, did you have any part-time jobs while you were in school? Like maybe work for a newspaper or anything? Well, my parents did not appreciate me going into the theater. Okay. So I left home very early. Very early? Very early. Had to support yourself? Had to support myself from whatever. I delivered the Tulsa World in the mornings so that I could go to school, and I delivered the Tulsa World out in the White City District. Okay. About 11th and Yale area? From 3rd to 11th Street, east of Yale. Yeah, the White City neighborhood. White City neighborhood. Yeah, it's not called that anymore. It's called Brayton Park now. Oh, is it really? At those days, it was called White City. Well, it really didn't mean White City. Right. It didn't mean it was named after something else. Yes, it was not. But anyway. Now, did you walk and deliver the newspaper or ride a bicycle? I did a bicycle and I did horseback. All right. Yale Avenue was a two-lane highway back then, and they had drainage ditches on each side of the highway. 6 �You're shaking your head. Do you know that? No. And they had these little wooden bridges to go through to the side streets, you know? And it was way out in the country. So I could ride my horse out there, you know? But the people of White City, there was a brand new, elegant addition. And I would ride my horse through their lawns to put the paper on their porch for them, you know? And when it would rain, I'd go through their lawn and put the paper on their porch, and they complained because I was digging up their lawn. Your horse was digging up their yard. Absolutely. So didn't you get fired from the Tulsa World because of that? No, they told me to stop riding the horse. So you went to Will Rogers High School. Yes. And you got interested in the theater. I got really interested in the theater. And when did you become interested in dancing? Because I understand that you had some interest in that. Yes. Actually, I was a little older. I was probably about 18 or 19 when I started to dance. Okay. I have your graduation picture right here. Graduation picture from Will Rogers High School. That doesn't look like me. You were very handsome. Yeah. That's a good picture, though. So when you were 19, you got interested in? In dancing. 7 �In dancing. Now, I know you rode horses, but what exactly is this picture? It looks like a mule to me. It's a toro. A toro. Okay. So it's a bull. It's a bull. All right. And I'm the back end of the bull. All right. And this is a theater group? This is the Tulsa Opera. And you were in a Tulsa Opera production. I was in a Tulsa Opera. Tulsa Opera first started out with operettas. You know, they weren't big enough yet. And all their first productions were all operettas. Okay. That was from Rio Rita. Okay. This is from the Desert Song with the Tulsa Opera. Then later on, they became legitimate and started to do the real opera. Okay. If this is an opera, did you dance or did you sing? We danced. Oh, yes. We danced. Okay. And I notice you are bare-chested, so they like to show off your bare chest. Well, I don't know. And this would have been in what year? Oh, gosh. Sometime in the 40s or 50s? 8 �Oh, it's got to be in the 50s. 50s? Okay. Yeah. I graduated in 49. It's got to be in the 50s. So about how? You were about 20, 22? Yeah. I was about 20, 22. Okay. And so you were involved with the Tulsa Opera and the Tulsa Ballet. At first. At first. At the Tulsa Opera was first. Then I got a scholarship to go to Los Angeles. And I went to Los Angeles and studied with Ruth St. Dennis Studio, which was a – people don't know her now, but she was one of – I guess – I don't know. I guess she was very famous as a spiritual modern dancer. And I got a scholarship to go – she was 82 years old when I went out there. Wow. Okay. Now, she didn't teach me much movement in dance, but the philosophy behind this woman just changed my whole life. She was really a remarkable woman. So you were out in Los Angeles. I was out in Los Angeles. Near Hollywood. Near Hollywood. And I studied. And I took lessons from Eugene Loring at the Hollywood School of Ballet. And I auditioned for a movie. This is when the musicals were all fabulous musicals, you know. What was it? The 50s, 60s, 50s? And I auditioned for a musical with Gwynne Verdon and Danny Kaye. And it was on the Riviera. But there was 500 dancers auditioned. I got to the final audition, and then I got a notice from Uncle Sam, come back to Tulsa, I was drafted. That brings us to this. That brings us to this. So there you are. Yes, I am. 9 �What branch of the military were you in? I was in the artillery. Army? Army. The Army artillery. That's where I started. That's where they drafted me, you know. Now, boot camp, where was boot camp at? Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. Oh, that's hot down there, wasn't it? Yeah, it was hot. Yeah, it was really hot. Really hot. It was very hot. So you went to Fort Chaffee for? Went to Fort Chaffee for my boot camp. For my boot camp. And then where were your assignments? My assignment was in Germany. I was very fortunate. It was right after the Korean War. It was in the middle of it before Vietnam, in between. And so I didn't have to go to Vietnam or Korea. They sent me to Europe, and I worked with the special services over there in Europe. So I had a good job, you know. I really didn't mind that much. I never carried a gun in my life, but it was pretty nice. Now, I see here that this is a Tulsa World newspaper, and it says GI Dancer, formerly with the Tulsa Opera, wins coveted medal in German Festival. So there's a picture of you bare-chested. They seem to like to show off your chest in those days. And you're bare-chested, and you're in front of a bunch of children. Tell us exactly what you were doing there. And apparently the Tulsa World was pretty proud. Tulsa was apparently pretty proud that... This article was originally done by the German newspaper. And it was all in German. And I couldn't understand a word of it. So I sent it home to my mother and said, could you get this, what do you call it? Translated. Translated, yeah. Get it translated. So she took it to the Tulsa World, and they just said, wow, this is wonderful. And they translated it and put it in the paper. Oh, am I moving? See, I get all... 10 �So you were there in Germany working with these school children. Now, what were you doing exactly? I was teaching them a lot of American dance in Augsburg, Germany. Okay. I was also helping to rehabilitate children from World War II. Okay. So you were part of the restoration. Part of the restoration of World War II. And I was teaching the children, and they honored me with this great honor from the city of Augsburg. Now, here's a picture. I don't know if our cameras can catch that, but it looks like you're dancing with someone with a crown on her head. Yes. That's the Princess of Augsburg. Okay. That I was dancing. And you got an opportunity to dance. Was she a good dancer? No. No, okay. But you made her look good, didn't you? Oh, yes. We just really, really appreciate it. And here you are with some of your military buddies. Yes, this is all my military buddies. Now, that was all there in Germany, correct? Yes, that's all in Germany. All right, so you did that in the military. And when did you get out of the military? 54. 11 �54? Did you come back to Tulsa? Oh, yes. Now, had Tulsa changed much because of the war? I understand there was a lot of building and GI homes were being thrown up. The GI homes were being thrown up. Brookside really became very, very, very big after World War II. With brand new homes and grocery stores and things. Little wooden houses, you know, all along Brookside. What did they call them? The little Cape Cod houses? All was done in Brookside. Now, Tulsa had big movie theaters in those days. And I understand you used to work at some of the big movie palaces. Yes. I was an usher. Of course, I still had to work my way through. Through living, you know, I was an usher at the Orpheum Theater. One of the most ornate, burlesque houses in the Midwest. It was absolutely elegant. Of course, they tore it down and built up a glass building there instead of it. Where was the? About a third in Cheyenne area. Second or third? It was a little bit past that. But anyway, it was a beautiful ornate theater. It was absolutely gorgeous. And I'd like to know where the Oklahoma Historic Society was at that time. Or the Preservationists. Preservationists, allow them to tear that theater down. It was just gorgeous. Now, were you there at that movie theater working there when they had the world premiere of Tulsa? Yes, I was. Yes, I was. And so you met? Yes, I was. What was her name though? Rita Hayworth. 12 �Rita Hayworth, yes. I ushered her down into the theater. They had a big parade down Main Street for the opening of the movie Tulsa. Okay. Big, big deal. Big deal in Tulsa. Thousands of people down there. And they had the premiere in the Orpheum Theater. And I was privileged to usher her down to the front row. Was she beautiful and gracious? Yeah, well. No, not really. She was kind of snooty. She was famous at the time. When they get famous and do things like that, you know these movie stars. Now I see in this picture, was this on a beach here in Tulsa? No. No? That's on Jones Beach in New York. Does anybody know where Jones Beach is? So you ended up in New York. Now how did you end up in New York? Okay. Did dancing take you there? No, no. I joined American Airlines in 1955, I guess it was. And I also worked with the Tulsa Ballet. Tulsa Civic Ballet at that time with Marceline Larkin. And with the Tulsa Opera, who became a legitimate opera house. I did Faust and I did, what was the other one I did? Faust and another opera with them. And that's where I stopped singing. There was this diva from New York, you know, they used to hire all the people to come in to sing the top roles. Well, oh, Aida, it was Aida. Okay. It was painted all in gold and everything. And at that time, they allowed all of the chorus and the dancers, they all had ballet in the operas, a quart of ballet in the operas. Well, they always allowed them to come in and sing at the finale. So they'd have a big crowd there. Well, I came in and I was right behind this metropolitan opera star in the back, just singing like mad. I thought I was doing great. She turned around to me and said, mouth it, buddy. I thought, oh, my God. I was throwing her off key. I have never sung in notes since. All right. 13 �I do some lip syncing now, but I've never done it. All right. So how did you end up in New York? You worked for American Airlines? I worked for American Airlines. They moved the accounting office from 910 South Boston to New York City. When they bought their first computer, IBM would not install a computer except in New York City, because nobody knew how they wanted them, you know. So they moved the entire part of American Airlines up to New York City. That's how I got to New York City. All right. And what did you do in New York City besides work? I understand you studied a little bit. I studied music. Yes, yes. I studied dancing, really. I was at the International School of Dance at Carnegie Hall. I did that of an evening after work, you know. So I didn't have much time to play because I was studying all the time I was there. And that's where I fell in love with clogging. They had a semester there of American folk dancing with square dancing and clogging and all. And I took a semester of clogging up in New York and I said, this is fantastic. I love this. I don't want to do ballet anymore. I don't want to clog because there's so much fun. And, you know, kids from three years old up to 80 years old can clog, you know. It's just wonderful. So I did that. And when I came back to Tulsa, I thought, this is really strange. I grew up in Oklahoma where clogging was all over the world and I didn't even think about it. I had to go to New York City to find out, hey, I love to clog. And I had it all around me all the time I was there. Now you're rushing ahead because I want to ask about some secret things. You were in New York. Did you ever, I understand in those days, lots of Oklahomans fled Oklahoma and they moved to New York for the gay culture, for the gay life subculture that was there in New York. There were clubs and bars, entertainment venues. Did you ever go out and have a drink at some of the nightclubs? Oh, yes, I did. And you met, did you meet anybody special there? I met my one and only partner. I've never had one since. And I was, what, 20, 24, 25. You fell madly in love. 14 �And I fell madly in love. His name was Nick. That was there in New York. And it was in New York City. Now in June... We used to go out dancing on Sunday brunch. They had big dances, tea dances they called them at the time. Sunday brunches, we would go out to the club, to one of our favorite clubs there in New York. And we would dance Sundays from 11 o'clock until 6 at night. He was the disco. He couldn't dance anything else. But he was a great disco dancer. And I had a great time. I really did. Now, and you were there in New York when the Stonewall riots happened. Yes. You were just around the corner, understand? What were you doing that night? Nick and I had gone down to the village to a little restaurant. They had these restaurants which was underneath the brownstones, you know, where they went down underneath it. Below street level. Below street level. They had these little restaurants there. And we went to our favorite restaurant. And we heard all this commotion going on outside, you know. And everybody in the restaurant got up, went out on the street. And we was a block away. We was a block away from Stonewall. But we saw everything that was going on down there. And... It was very frightening. Yes. But that started the gay movement. Now, did you have any friends who were injured or knew any of the people that were arrested? No, I really didn't. I really didn't. I really didn't. After it was almost... We stood out there for, oh, I guess about an hour. And we didn't even know what it was all about at the time, you know. And we walked down to the subway after dinner. And we went home. And the next morning on the paper, the Village Voice, we saw what it was all about. I wasn't in it, but I really, I really saw it. And you said there was quite a pushback from New York over it. And then there was a march a few days later. Yeah. Where they told everybody to come out and march in the streets. Yes, yes. 15 �And did you march in the streets with them in that parade? We had to work. And people were afraid still, weren't they afraid of being out? They were afraid. You had to have somebody with you. Okay. But the police was very cautious at the time. And that was the very first Gay Pride March? The very first Gay Pride March is in Greenwich Village in New York. 1969. 1969 it was. Yeah, and that started the whole gay movement. Look where we've come from. So whenever you, probably when we come around Pride time and you think about our parades, lots of young people today don't even realize we're commemorating an act of war. When they were waging war on us in 1969. And it was the retaliation. We stood up for ourselves. And we're commemorating when we stood up and said you're not going to do this to us anymore. Yep, that's right. So whenever we have Pride parades, do you ever allow your mind to think about that, that maybe some of our young people don't understand what it's really about? Oh, all the time. All the time. The young people today have so much freedom. When I grew up, there was no freedom in the gay community. No, there wasn't even a community. But the kids today have so much freedom to do whatever they want to do, whatever they want to do. And I just keep thinking, God, if I'd have had that when I was young, they have bars they can go to now. There wasn't a gay bar in Tulsa when I grew up here. I wouldn't even think about it. Except the Bamboo Lounge was the first gay bar in Tulsa. So you came back to Tulsa in the early 1970s? Yes, yes. I came back in, I guess about 75, I guess it was. And you had discovered clogging. I had discovered clogging. 16 �And you came back. In fact, did you hunt down the gay community when you got back to Tulsa? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I found freedom at last. You came back and told them about New York, right? Yes, yes. Now, what bars were there in that day in the 1970s? In Tulsa? Well, I can't remember all of them because I didn't go to all of them. My favorite was Tim's Playroom. Tim's Playroom. Oh, good. You could go in there and you could dance disco from nine o'clock at night until two o'clock in the morning without even stopping. And I used to go in there and just dance all night long, all night long. One of the greatest DJs that ever lived was in that bar. Now, you were talking about what young people have today. Yes. Whenever you think about the equality center and it being downtown, what do you think about that in Oklahomans for Equality? Oh, what you have done for equality is really great. I started out, well, coming from New York back down here and seeing all of the things going on, I helped start TOHR. Oklahomans for Human Rights is what it was called. Yes, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. That's what it was. There was about five or six very prominent people in Tulsa, and then there was me, the little guy that didn't have any money or anything. But I went in with them and I said, come on, let's do it. You knew Dennis Neill on that day? Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I knew Dennis Neill. I'll tell you something about Dennis Neill. He used to live right around the corner from me on 31st and Woodard Boulevard. This was a long time ago. And after work, he would jog, I guess it was called jogging then, he would jog after work down 31st Street down to River Park and back to home. I'd be out working in the yard. He'd always wave at me, you know, as he goes by. Hi, Bill. Hi, Dennis. And great guy. And I saw his first turnabout performance. Oh, he's done drag? I don't think any of us knew that. 17 �There was a big benefit out at this restaurant on 71st Street. It's no longer out there, no longer a restaurant. But they had a big turnabout benefit out there. And Dennis Neill was in drag. So you all formed this organization 31 years ago. Yeah. And so it's an entirely different world, isn't it, than it was 31 years ago? Oh, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Now, when did you start clogging with, put together your clogging group? My first clogging group was 1986. I formed it because of the Oklahoma OGRA, which is the Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association. We didn't have one in Tulsa. So I formed a group called the Green Country Cloggers. The Green Country Cloggers. And it was a great group. It was a wonderful group. And we performed all over the Midwest. We went from all the gay rodeos, from Denver, Phoenix, California, Kansas, Oklahoma. They didn't have one in Arkansas at the time. But I mean, every one of them. Texas, Texas was the big one. The big gay rodeo in Texas. And we became pretty famous, didn't we? Yes. Now, that was 1986. That was 1986. That would have been right in the middle of the epidemic. So we were having people, AIDS was in full swing and people were dying. And there were probably people here in Tulsa who had been infected. They were. They were. What are your thoughts about how the community reacted to that? I don't think they reacted. I really don't. They should have had more, but there was not enough information to say, Oh, hey, we're not affected by this. And out of my 12 cloggers, I lost seven. Out of your original things. So then we disbanded and I couldn't handle it anymore. And later on, when Tulsa got its own rodeo, SSRA rodeo, I started the SSRA clogging team, Sooner State Cloggers. Now here's a picture of your cloggers dressed up as the village people. That was the original Green Country cloggers. 18 �All right. And here you are. Are you the muscle guy or the police officer? I'm Felipe, the Indian. So you were the Indian. Well, that's a great picture. I love that. This guy right here, he runs the Eagle in Dallas, Texas. He owns the Eagle in Dallas, Texas. This guy here was one of the original owners of the toolbox. And this guy right here, beautiful man. Well, they're all very handsome. All very handsome. Yeah. Good group. Now you did clogging and somewhere in there, somebody decided that you looked a little bit like Santa Claus. And you started doing... Yes. I was doing, I was teaching clogging out in Glenpool at the Glenpool Community Center, which Glenpool was nothing then, I don't think. But we did a couple of shows out at Black Gold Days. I guess it was. Every year they had the Black Gold Days out at Glenpool. And I was working with the kids out there. And one of the organizers said, Bill, would you play Santa Claus for us? And I said, well, sure. I never get a chance to entertain, you know. I'm such a ham anyway. But I said, sure, I will. So they gave me this old Santa Claus, a moth-eaten Santa Claus suit and a phony beard. And I went out there and I clogged for their Christmas show. Well, the kids just went crazy. They thought it was the funniest thing to see Santa Claus clogging. And I said, well, you know, I continue to do it from then on because I made the kids so happy with that. And that's how it all started. We're looking at a magazine article from 1998 in The Oklahoman. And it's a feature article on you, The Dancing Santa. And it tells about his opera days and what he did in the restoration of Europe and his work with German children. But it also talks about how he just lights up the day and makes these kids' parties so exciting with Santa who dances. Well, you've had quite a remarkable life. I'm looking right here. You've been given seven awards. This is a lifetime achievement award that you received last year. Clogger Bill, with huge thanks from the Tulsa gay community, 2009. You are our hero. That was in 2009. And you've continued to do a lot of benefit work for lots of different nonprofits. And lots of organizations that serve people living with HIV AIDS. 19 �Absolutely. The other night... I'm a server. You are. I try to do everything to serve. I don't want anything for myself. Well, almost. You won't turn it down, is what you're saying. That's where we go. You know, the other night... I'm very humble. I just don't want anything, except I do love applause. Well, I think we all like attention. The other night, the Tulsa Eagle threw a birthday party for you, celebrating your 80th birthday. Unbelievable. And the place was packed. And such good fun. I want you to know, I was looking forward to that and I was excited being able to attend. And then I want our audience to know that a few days before that, you called me and you said, Toby, I want to do something to remember the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people who died on 9-11. Nobody's ever thought about them. So you wanted to inflate helium balloons in pastel colors. We spent all afternoon blowing up the balloons. And you said, Toby, I want us to launch the balloons a little after seven. So that was what I was so touched by because I'd been watching on 9-11 Sunday. I'd been watching all the coverage of the dedication of the 9-11 memorial and how that affected Oklahomans. And then I attended the event at the BOK Center that OCCJ sponsored. And then to be able to go to your party where our community gathered and we wanted to make sure that our people had not been forgotten, been recognized. And we set those balloons off at 7-15. We read the names of all of the hundreds of gay people who died on 9-11. And we set those balloons off. And it was the strangest thing, there was a set of jets doing a maneuver up in the sky. And right when we set those balloons off, the balloons took off and those jets crossed right in the middle of the sky. And there was this huge cross in the sky as we set those balloons off. Now, Bill, I checked. To my knowledge, there was not another memorial tribute to the gay victims of 9-11 than the one in Tulsa, Oklahoma that Bill Francisco wanted to do. It was his day, but you still wanted to think of others. Now, because of that, that night they surprised you. And I think probably this sums up your life. It takes a moment to change history. It takes love to change lives. The Imperial Court of all Oklahoma hereby proclaims the Youth Scholarship to be forever named in the honor of Clogger Bill Francisco Youth Scholarship Fund, September 11, 2011. That night they surprised you by naming a youth scholarship in your honor. How do you feel about that? Oh, my God. First, I wish they wouldn't do it until after the show. Because I was so emotional, I couldn't hardly dance. It's a big honor 20 �. It's a very big honor. Now, what do you think when young people, young gay and lesbian people who are applying for scholarships to be able to go to college and further their education, when they hear about this scholarship opportunity and they read the story about who it's named after, what do you want to be able to tell them? I want them to follow their dreams. Go for it. Well, thank you very much. You've been with us today while we've interviewed here on Vintage, Bill Francisco, who I think followed his dreams and he did go for it. And our city is richer because of his contribution. Thank you so much for joining us today. Applause How was that? 21 � https://history.okeq.org/files/original/cae0cab67dbba006859779f324fcbc61.mp4 e71dbd9d5040432cf3641c9dd2b8169e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2011] Bill Francisco Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Toby Jenkin’s September 13th, 2011 Vintage Series Interview. Bill was born on September 5th, 1931, on a dirt farm outside of Catoosa, Oklahoma. He passed on December 25, 2024, in Tulsa. He made his first stage appearance in a school play in Tuls at the age of 7. At that moment, he was attracted to the theatre and applause. From being a high school cheerleader to playing the accordion to forming Green Country Cloggers, Bill was a ham. He served in the Army, spent time in Los Angeles learning dance and ballet and lived and worked in New York City before returning to Tulsa. He witnessed the first Gay Pride Parade in New York City in 1969 following the Stonewall Riot. He was locally famous as the “Dancing Santa,” exciting children throughout the Tulsa area. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bill Francisco, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Subject The topic of the resource Bill Francisco Vintage Series Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 13, 2011 Bill Francisco Green Country Clogger Green Country Cloggers interview OKEQ Oral History Project oral history Oral History Project Toby Jenkins video Vintage Vintage Series Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Bob Cisar and Kirk Holt Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte April 9, 2005. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research</strong><strong>.</strong> Bob Cisar was born on February 18, 1942, and grew up in Oklahoma City. Married and then divorced, Bob served in the army as a surgical nurse in Vietnam during the war. In the interview, Bob discusses his career and social experiences in Tulsa, and early involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights and Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. With his partner of twenty-one years, Kirk Holt, was a well-known interior designer until his death on March 10, 2006. Kirk Holt was born on July 2, 1961, in Oklahoma City. He graduated in 1983 from Oklahoma State University with a degree in interior design. Together, Kirk and Bob ran a successful interior design studio and retail operation. Before his passing, Bob worked with Kirk in helping design the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center prior to the 2007 move-in. Kirk lead the design effort in 2017 when the Center underwent a major re-design and served for several years on the Board of Trustees for Oklahomans for Equality. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 9, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Bob Cisar and Kirk Holt Oral History Project Interview from April 9, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bob Cisar, Kirk Holt, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center Bob Cisar Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Equality Center Opening interview Kirk Holt Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OHR OkEq OKEQ Board OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Equality Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) Oklahomans for Equality Board Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Bob Inglish Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 30, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 30, 2004. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research</strong><strong>.</strong> Bob grew Okmulgee, Oklahoma. He attended Oklahoma State University and received a law degree from the University of Oklahoma. While at OU, he came “out.” He returned to Okmulgee and entered into a law practice with his father. Although practicing in Okmulgee, Bob lived in Tulsa, where he realized in the late 1970s that the gay life was almost solely centered on the bars. With Dennis Neill, Mike Green, Gary Durst and others, in 1980 they became the Tulsa Chapter of Oklahomans for Human Rights, which was formed around 1977 in Oklahoma City. Bob served as the first treasurer of OHR. The early focus of OHR was to provide social and educational opportunities to the LGBTQ community in addition to the bars. In 1985, the organization became its own nonprofit under the name of Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Bob highlights the early challenge of engaging with the lesbian community to broaden OHR and TOHR’s outreach. He discusses the origins of the Harwelden Party which began in 1980, and the Black and White Party held for 10 years in the 1980s. He talks about his involvement with the ACLU and Tulsa’s and TOHR’s response to the AIDS crisis. Subject The topic of the resource Bob Inglish Oral History Project Interview from January 30, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bob Inglish, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 ACLU AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center Black and White Gala Black and White Party Bob Inglish Dennis Neill Gary Durst Harwelden Party HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Mike Green OHR OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OU TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Oklahoma University of Oklahoma (OU) video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2020] Bob Ritz Interview Subject The topic of the resource Bob Ritz Oral History Project Interview from August 4, 2020 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Morgan Allen and Fraser Kastner on August 4, 2020. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> In the interview, Bob discusses his early life, coming out in the late 1960s, his military experience, involvement in the Tulsa LGBTQ community and work on behalf of immigrant rights. Bob passed on October 21, 2024. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bob Ritz, Morgan Allen, Fraser Kastner, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 4, 2020 2020 available at Center Bob Ritz Fraser Kastner immigration interview Morgan Allen OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/edde5cee0c87796495da8224fcd4dec0.mp4 5815341d8dca43351639e8b30a0e0535 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/2e3bbcc43ab98711e95823244ffe02e6.pdf 9bfad13b7148d2a1c9be6cc96f451db7 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with David Dees Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: April 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About David Dees: Summary This interview with David Dees offers a deep dive into the history of LGBTQ+ community life in Tulsa, including early club culture, personal experiences with family acceptance, and the evolution of Pride events. It provides valuable insights into the challenges and resilience of the community over decades. Join us for an in-depth interview with David Dees as he shares his experiences and insights from decades of activism, community organizing, and the history of LGBTQ+ life in Tulsa. Discover stories of community resilience, the fight against AIDS, and the importance of education and inclusion. Keywords LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, club culture, family acceptance, Pride events, community resilience LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, community activism, AIDS awareness, LGBTQ+ community, pride, history, activism, community organizing, LGBTQ+ rights Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 03:00 High School Years and Early Independence 06:02 First Jobs and Early Adult Life 09:01 Coming Out and Family Dynamics 11:58 Experiences in Gay Bars 15:06 Navigating Relationships and Identity 18:01 The Impact of Family Acceptance 20:59 Police Harassment and Community Challenges 2 �24:01 Reflections on Parental Relationships 38:58 Navigating Heartbreak: A Lesson in Self-Worth 43:22 Family Dynamics and Coming Out 49:52 The Power of Words: Language and Identity 52:32 The Evolution of the Gay Bar Scene 01:02:25 AIDS Awareness: The Community's Response 01:09:43 Fundraising and Support During the AIDS Crisis 01:17:21 Community Dynamics and Discrimination 01:19:14 Violence and Resilience in the LGBTQ+ Community 01:22:37 The Pulse Nightclub Memorial and Community Solidarity 01:27:27 Fundraising and Support for the LGBTQ+ Community 01:32:36 The Role of Bars in LGBTQ+ History 01:40:05 Legacy and Influence of LGBTQ+ Icons 01:43:10 Compassion and Community Responsibility 01:49:21 Messages for Future Generations David Dees Oral History Interview April 21, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, it's April the 21st, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library, Joe here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. We have David Dees today with us a local business owner and community leader. Those present for the interviews, Amanda Thompson, archivist at the Equality Center, Mary Bishop- Baldwin, renowned journalist and petitioner in the marriage equality lawsuit and also helping here in the archives. And Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality. And our interviewer today is Toby Jenkins. All right, David, I know over the years I've heard you talk a little bit about your family, so I want to get just a little bit of background. Where were you born? David Dees: Southern Florida. Toby Jenkins: Southern Florida? Where at in Florida? David Dees: By way of Lake Okeechobee area, actually. Toby Jenkins: And what was your family, were they from Florida or did they… David Dees: Well, let's see, my mom would have been from Wisconsin, and my dad's family is all Southern Florida people. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you were born there, and what year would that have been? David Dees: 58. Toby Jenkins: 1958, okay, and how did you end up in Oklahoma? David Dees: My dad got transferred out here when I was 14. Toby Jenkins: 14 years old, and what was his background? David Dees: He was an insurance salesman. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you came, you left a place with beaches and sunshine, and old people. David Dees: And old people. Toby Jenkins: And you came to a place that had four seasons, bitter cold in the winter and bitter heat in the summer. What were your thoughts about that as a 14year-old kid? David Dees: I don't even know if I can tell that story or not. I remember my grandmother crying, and I'd ask her, what's going on? And she's like, you're moving to a place where you won't have a house. You'll be in a mud shack with grass on the roof, and you won't have cars, and you'll have to ride ponies. And I remember going up to my mom, I'm like, where the hell are we moving? And my mom says, I swear I've been out there, it's not like that. And thank God it wasn't. Toby Jenkins: And it wasn't? David Dees: It wasn't. Toby Jenkins: And so you would have moved when you were 14 to Tulsa? David Dees: Mm-hmm, 72. Toby Jenkins: And what junior high did you go to? David Dees: Edison. Toby Jenkins: Edison? David Dees: Yeah, Edison was a combo junior, senior, 7 through 12. Toby Jenkins: And then you graduated from high school there. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember any details about your high school years? David Dees: We could smoke in the smoke hole. Toby Jenkins: Smoking in the smoke hole. Oh, Lord. David Dees: You know, it was a pretty fun time. Definitely different from what school is like now, for sure. I think it's more relaxed. We could leave campus to go eat lunch. We could do a lot of stuff, drive to school. I think they do that now still. Toby Jenkins: What year did you graduate? David Dees: 76, bicentennial, baby. Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you remember how many were in your graduating class? David Dees: Oh, Lord. 650, almost 700. Toby Jenkins: Right. 4 �David Dees: It was big. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I think it has less than 300 now. David Dees: Wow, really? Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been right at the apex of Tulsa and Tulsa Public Schools. I think in those days it had about 84,000 students in its school system. David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And it has a third of that now. Most probably because of private schools and urban sprawl and suburbs. David Dees: Well, I remember urban sprawl was starting to be a deal because Union was actually one of the bigger schools then, and then it became Broken Arrow, Jenks, and now even Bixby is considered really growing huge, I think. Toby Jenkins: So did you have special interests in high school? Were the things that you were involved in, other than sneaking around smoking in the smoke holes? David Dees: Smoking in the smoke holes? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. David Dees: No, no, no. All I wanted to do was to get out of school. That's all I could live for. Toby Jenkins: So when you graduated from high school in 1976, what was, kind of what was the climate in the United States at that time? What stands out in your mind and your perspective as a new high school graduate? David Dees: Seems like you made $1.75 an hour and I remember thinking, wow, if I make $600 a month, I can pay my rent, my car payment, my utilities, and eat. Toby Jenkins: And did you go directly from high school into the workforce? David Dees: Absolutely. I was working before I was out of high school. First job I had when I got here was I picked up a paper route with the Tulsa Tribune, six days with the Tulsa Tribune, and threw the Sunday World. And that's how I bought my first car, my first motorcycle. Toby Jenkins: What motorcycle? David Dees: A Honda SL125 dirt bike. Toby Jenkins: Mine was a Kawasaki. David Dees: Remember, they used to have the strip pits over at Yale and, oh gosh, North Yale. What is that out where the airport is? There's Pine and then Apache, Yale and Apache. I used to ride those strip pits all the time out there as a kid. Toby Jenkins: They're still there. They're still riding. David Dees: Still burning too, I think. 5 �Toby Jenkins: They're still riding motorcycles out there too, Sunday afternoons. So, your first car? David Dees: Oh, Lord, do I have to say that? 1976 Ford Pinto Station. A green one. Toby Jenkins: I'm more embarrassed than that. I had a 1976 Gremlin that was orange. David Dees: Oh, dear God. At least it wasn't that horrible gold. I remember that. I'm like, those hubcaps are horrible. Toby Jenkins: Now, was yours a hatchback or a station wagon? David Dees: Mine was a station wagon. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. David Dees: You know, hey, I was cool. I think it had the wood grain down it too. Toby Jenkins: So, what was your first job after high school? David Dees: Oh, Lord, that'd have to have been Fur’s Cafeteria at the Farm. Toby Jenkins: What did you do at Fur’s Cafeteria? David Dees: You do not want to know. So, I started out in the dish room, then wound up on the serving line of all things, and then wound up as a dining room supervisor out there. That was crazy. Toby Jenkins: And so, were you on your own? I mean, had you already moved out of the house? David Dees: The day I graduated, I broke my mom's heart. I'm up early and she's like, where are you going? I said, I've been telling you for a year that I graduated, I'm out of here. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: She didn't think I was serious. Toby Jenkins: Was it just because you wanted independence or did you feel some kind of... David Dees: I think it's a combination of things, honestly. I think I was figuring out that there was something different about me. You know, I already knew because back then, you would have to go sneak to QuikTrip or get a little Playboy magazine or something, you know? So, yeah, I knew there was something different about me. Oh, yeah, that's right. Holy crap. I was kind of a young kid sneaking out, going into the bars. Yikes. I've forgotten about that because I was 15, I guess. Toby Jenkins: Wow. You were already about 15. How do you identify? David Dees: Gay man. Toby Jenkins: Gay man. Ok. So, even at that age, you already had figured out you were different? 6 �David Dees: I knew at 12 I was. Probably, you know, it's real funny because looking back for years, I remember being in... What would I have been in? 3rd or 4th grade and I had a teacher, you know, a male teacher that I always remember was a striking, good-looking man and every time he walked by, I'm like, mmm, English Leather Lime. So, you know, maybe that was the beginning that there was something different about me back then. But I didn't know what it was, you know what I'm saying? Dennis Neill: That was my cologne, too. Toby Jenkins: I was Jovan Musk. David Dees: You know, I may have worn that, too. Aramis and all of those. Toby Jenkins: Alright. So, do you feel like you wanted to be out of the house because you knew you were gay or just you wanted the independence as a young adult? David Dees: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Wanted to come and go as you... Absolutely all of it. Absolutely all of it. You know, part of my life, there was no business that was going on, you know. I'll never forget my mom even coming into my house one time. It was right after I'd moved out. You know, of course, we may have smoked a little weed back then and we may have had cute little bongs and nobody knew what they were. And I remember my mom had come into my house and I'd walk by my table and I'm like, whoa…And she has taken my bong that was like a little Roman girl holding a flower basket and had put flowers in it and then told me how dirty the water was in it. So yeah, there was a lot of reasons when I left home. Toby Jenkins: Where was your first place, if it was your place? David Dees: Oh my god, it was a trailer park and it's still there at Admiral and Yale. Toby Jenkins: Admiral and Yale. David Dees: Behind the K-Mart. Well, it used to be the K-Mart, McElroy now. Toby Jenkins: By the post office? David Dees: Yeah, well, it used to be tiny, tiny and then they made it for big trailers. I mean, there were twice the trailers in there when I lived in there. Toby Jenkins: Did you have a roommate? David Dees: Nope, no. Toby Jenkins: You were working at Fur’s Cafeteria. David Dees: Yep, well, yeah, by then I'd gone on to do something else. I don't even remember what I was doing then. I think I was working downtown somewhere. Toby Jenkins: Now, you mentioned that you could go into the convenience stores and you could buy magazines. David Dees: Your adult magazines. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Yep, you could buy them in there. David Dees: Absolutely. Blue Boy, Playgirl. Seemed like they actually even carried a few that were geared toward gay men. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, Blue Boy. David Dees: Blue Boy was definitely, but there was another one. I can't remember what they were, but of course, I remember going to the clerk. I'm getting this for my mom. Oh yeah, but your mom wants to look at Blue Boy. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you talked about, you hinted at that you were already aware of gay bars and that you were trying to sneak into those. David Dees: Oh Lord, that's right. That is, okay, I do remember how I found my first gay bar. I was, Lord have mercy. This is when I worked at Fur’s and I was dating a girl who dumped me to go with a flaming gay man, of all things. Toby Jenkins: You were just too butch. David Dees: I don't know what it was, but then I remember one night hearing them talk about how, you know, we're gonna go by the gay bar and yell at the queers and the fags and I'm like, oh, cool, you know? And so I go with them and then of course, I'm like, oh, so here's the Friends Lounge at 3rd and Utica, cool. Okay, guys, I need to go home. I don't feel good. My stomach's bothering me. 45 minutes later, I'm back down there sitting in my car on the parking lot. Toby Jenkins: And it was, tell us a little bit about the Friends. That would have been your first gay bar? David Dees: I didn't go into it. I was scared to death, but I mean, I sat, many nights, I sat outside that thing and just watched, watched, watched from a parking lot. The first bar that I ever went into was the Old Queen of Hearts downtown. And that was on, what, like 9th to 10th on Main, but on the east side of the road. It's a parking lot now. Toby Jenkins: On the Fruit Loop? David Dees: Yes, on the Fruit Loop, absolutely. And that was also one that I sat outside forever and I remember, oh, Lord, this is a traumatic experience. I'm sitting in my car and there was this guy that had been, I guess, watching me several weeks just sitting in the car. You know how you do, sit down, look over the door, you know, that far over the glass. And he finally taps on my window. He's like, what are you doing? I said, I'm just sitting here watching. He goes, well, why don't you go in with everybody? And I was like, man, I can't go in there. What if somebody knows me? You know, and of course he's like, well, what the hell do you think they're in there for? I'm like, oh yeah, cool idea. So I go in there. I finally get the courage about 30 minutes later going to this bar and I walk in there and they had a quiet bar in front and then in the back was the disco area. And I remember walking in there and it was so dark, you know, you can't see anything. So you're just kind of stumbling through, making your way through. And she's going to appreciate this story because I'm going to name this lady's name and you'll know her. 8 �So I walk into this thing and then I go through the double doors of the disco. There's a strobe going on. I'm like, holy crap, I can't see anything. And all I remember hearing is a girl scream. Oh my God, that guy that just walked in. I went to high school with him. So I turn around and I run and this little flamboyant cocktail waiter had come in behind me and had his tray with the glasses up like that. And I mean, bam, I hit him so hard. Glassware flew everywhere, knocked him on the ground and I stomped him just going out the door, like running out the door, man. I mean, I'm shoving people out of the way. I'm in the middle of Main Street, almost to the church parking lot across the street because it was right across from the Christian church. And I am almost to where my car's parked and I feel somebody jump on my back and I go down into the street face first and I'm like, don't hurt me, don't hurt me, don't hurt me. And it's this girl going, David Dees, David Dees, I'm Patty Murray and we went to high school together. Sure enough, her and I used to sit in a smoke hole and smoke all the time. Toby Jenkins: Well, we've heard about the legendary Patty because she eventually worked the door at Zippers. David Dees: Yes, and then Dr. Beal's office. She was, you know, in Dr. Beal's office for years when the AIDS epidemic first came on. Or is it crisis, I guess? Both. Toby Jenkins: So, someone you knew from high school clocked you and then dragged you back in. I did go back in. And did you apologize to the waiter? David Dees: I did not apologize to that waiter. I was praying nobody would even remember me. Toby Jenkins: And so you went in and what was that experience once you got in there and it was somebody you knew who helped you? David Dees: You know, I remember the first song I remember hearing, believe it or not, Strawberry Letter 23. That old disco tune. And I'll probably never forget that song because that was the first thing playing in there. And I just remember like, this is pretty cool, you know. Basic room, it wasn't really much of anything. It was just a bunch of people dancing. And I loved the music. Toby Jenkins: Big crowd, small crowd? David Dees: For what I remember, you know, it was probably a pretty decent, it was a full room of people. I don't remember how big the room was at the time, but I believe that was actually, might have been one of the bars that Tim Turner was involved in originally before he went to the Old Plantation and some of the others that he did out, you know, around town. Toby Jenkins: And this was Queen of Hearts, if I'm following? David Dees: Correct. And it went by another name too, but Queen of Hearts was the first name that I remember it being as. And then up the road you had the Zebra Lounge and the Taj Mahal around the corner, which I just noticed they tore all of that down to redevelop that whole block now, where Bank of America built, the branches. 9 �Toby Jenkins: The Holiday Innmis across from the big tall building there. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been in the late 70s, would have been 77? David Dees: No, mid-70s. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So this was before you'd even graduated from high school, right? David Dees: Maybe, I'll let you take it. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. Because this was somebody you knew from high school. Yes, yes. David Dees: Yeah, right after high school. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so were you still working at Fur’s Cafeteria during this time? David Dees: Probably so, actually. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So for many of our viewers, they'll know you as a business owner and a club owner and a DJ and all of that. Tell us a little bit about your early adult life and your, I mean, I'm wanting to jump to how I know you through the clubs, but I'm sure there were some career changes and maybe some relationships. David Dees: Yeah, I was going into Zippers underage. Well, I'd met John Willis at the Old Plantation, which was at 51st and Yale. It had been a bar called Bojangles, and then Tim Turner took it and turned it into a gay club. And that's where I met John Willis. John Willis was, at the time, still married but coming out and in the process of getting ready to divorce. And he did some of their sound system and stuff. So, Lord, I'm trying to think. And then after the Plantation, it was shortly after, I think the Plantation lasted a couple years before it caught fire and burned. And then about that time, George Kravis had done, let's see, I'm trying to remember, I think it was Casablanca first, at 33rd and Yale. And it was supposed to be like a little gambling casino that had slot machines and card games and stuff. And it was geared towards the upper-scale clientele. And then, of course, it got raided by the state, shut down, and then reopened for about six months as Sweetwater Station. And Sweetwater Station was straight, but gay-tolerant. I mean, you went in there, you could dance with another guy, and nobody said anything, you just didn't, yeah, you didn't make it… Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? David Dees: 77, 76, probably, somewhere around that. Toby Jenkins: David, we were talking a little bit about some of the early gay clubs, and this would have been in the mid-'70s, late-'70s, and you would have still been just a young man, possibly sneaking into these clubs, because you may have been underage. During this time, if I remember correctly, all clubs were private clubs, and you had to have a membership to be present, and you had to bring your own liquor, didn't you? Were they? 10 �David Dees: That's how you're supposed to, yes. The way it worked was you had a membership to the club, they'd say, what's your name? You gave them your name, what's your liquor? Crown Royal. So, what they would do was, when they bought Crown Royal, they put your name on the bottle, so everybody's, every bottle up there had a name, but you'd walk up to the bar and you ordered what you want, bourbon and coke, Jack and, you know. Toby Jenkins: So, the experience was similar to what it was, but this was how we got around and said we didn't have liquor by the drink in Oklahoma. David Dees: Correct, correct. Now, yes, very similar to today, but very different from today, because of the police harassment back when Chief Jack Purdy was in, in office, the TPD, they would come through the bars, you know, to check compliance. I remember they would walk through Zippers, and they carried these batons, metal batons, and they'd knock ceiling towels out of the ceiling, like looking for drugs, walk by. I remember one night, they walked by the water fountain that sat between the men's and women's restroom and knocked it over, looking for drugs. They were destructive. They'd knock tables over walking through the bar. It was crazy, it was the craziest stuff you ever saw. Back when the bars were downtown, jaywalking tickets all the time for crossing the street in the middle of the street. Toby Jenkins: They would sit parked outside. David Dees: Oh, absolutely, outside of the gay bar, well, outside the Queen of Hearts at 10th and Main, John Smith, you know, got a ticket for jaywalking. So, they made a point to put your name in the paper, you know, where you were jaywalking and where you were jaywalking at. You know, and of course, it was only at the bars, the gay bars downtown. It wasn't like they were doing it over at, you know, the Mayo Hotel. Toby Jenkins: So, you were working your day job, and you were living independent as a young adult, had your own place. Relationship with your family was still warm and friendly? David Dees: You know, that's kind of a weird thing, too. My family did find out right after I had moved out from home, my brother accidentally outed me because, you know, my brother was one of these kids that I'm, you know, go up to my mom and say, hey, can I borrow the car, where are you going? Well, I'm gonna drive by the gay bar and yell the queers in the bags, you know, and my mom'd be, boys will be boys. So, of course, he's doing that one night, and like I said, I mean, you got used to being chased in the bar by people that wanted to hurt you or do something to you. I mean, I'd had people chase me once with a tire chain from 35th and Winston, running in, get in the parking lot. High school kids usually is what it was, or other high school kids or young adults. Tire chain once, a tire iron that you used to loosen your lug nuts with. That sort of thing. So I remember, it was on a Sunday, because I was going in for the beer bust, and I'm walking in the front door, and just as I pulled the door open, I heard, queer faggot, and I turned around, I don't know what it was, it was just that night, it just hit me, and I'm like, I'll fucking kill you. I'll turn around, I'll go after somebody tonight. You've just caught me right in the right mood. And I bowed up and turned around, I was getting ready to go, and I'm like, oh shit, that's my brother. 11 �And it's my brother driving by 33rd Street towards the Get and Go [convenience store] in my mom's Pontiac. She had this Catalina, so it was a whale of a car. And he's driving by, and he's like, like that, and I'm like, oh shit. And I just went on in, and about that time, I heard chomp, and he jumped the curb, and had grazed the parking lot light at the Get and Go at my mom's car. And I look at it, and I'm like, shit, he's fine. I just went on in the bar, I wasn't gonna deal with it. My younger brother, he's six years younger than me. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so he saw that, and then he told your family. David Dees: Oh yeah, of course, he went home. My mom's like, what happened to my car? Well, I was driving by the queer bar, yelling at the queers, and I saw David going in. And of course, my mom's like, well, why would David be going into a gay bar? And my brother immediately tells mom, well, maybe he likes the music, you know? And so nothing's said for probably about three or four months, okay? And then I remember one night, my mom walked up to me, and she's like, I wanna ask you a question. I'm like, okay. And she's like, are you gay? And I just went flush. I mean, I'm like, shit. And I looked at her, and very tactfully, I said, mom, I want you to think about the question you're asking. And if in your heart, you don't wanna know the answer, don't ask the question, because I've never lied to you, and I'm not gonna lie to you. So she's like, are you gay? Mom, again, I'm gonna tell you, if you don't wanna know the answer to this, don't ask the question. And so she asked me a third time, and I'm like, okay, yeah, I am. And then, of course, immediately, she kind of went into the spiel, like it goes against everything I know. It goes against what religion has taught me. And God, it was such a detailed conversation. I mean, she's really calm about it, but she's like, I don't understand it, and I worry about what kind of life will you have? Will people be mean to you because of it? What if somebody hurts you? She just had all these questions and these fears. And I said, mom, I assure you, I'm comfortable with who I am. I've navigated this water for a while, and I'm okay. Don't worry about what kind of life I'll have, or if I'm happy, or if anything, because I'm okay. And I said, I'm smart enough to know how to protect myself. I know where I'm safe. I know where I'm not safe. I'll be fine. And then her final question, and I made her cry on this, because she stopped and she looked at me and she goes, so, and she was dead serious too. So, when you go out at night, do you put on a pink dress and pink high heels? And I looked at her and I said, where in the fuck did you come up with that? I said, that's the stupidest shit anybody has ever said to me. Where did you come up with that? Then of course, immediately she burst into tears, because it took me a minute to realize that's just all she knew. It's what she had been told, or what she'd been taught, or what she knew about it. So, she wanted to learn, you know, and she told me, she said, I don't understand it, I don't like it, you know, and I'm worried that, you know, you might not get into heaven or something like that. You know, and I said, mom, I'll be honest with you. I said, you know, I've got my relationship with my higher power, and I said, I'm sure when my day comes, we'll sit at a table, we'll have a discussion. I said, I'm sure I'm gonna get passed on through, so, you know, don't worry about that. And. Toby Jenkins: Was your relationship strained after that, or… 12 �David Dees: Not with her, but it was like a couple of months later, you know, I'd gone over to the house, and, you know, I'd go over and help my dad tinker on carburetors on the car, stuff like that. We'd work on a lawnmower, work on my motorcycle, something. And I'd gone over there one Saturday morning, it was a couple months after my mom had found out, and my dad was odd, I mean, I'm just like, hmm. You know, he's got a burr up him, but I don't know what it is. And so we were going to an auto parts store to get a part, and I remember, we're sitting in the car, and we're going north on Sheridan, I think Guy Hinshaw's had a store at Admiral and Memorial or something at one time, years ago. And so that's really dating me, I know. So we're going to this thing, and I remember, my dad's not saying anything, he's just staring straight ahead, and I look over, and the first thing I'm seeing is, I'm like, and his knuckles, he's had the steering wheel so tight, his knuckles were white. And I'm like, okay, this isn't good. And I didn't say anything, and we're sitting there, and we almost get to where we're going, and out of the blue, and I mean, man, I don't think I'll ever forget the tone of his voice, because it absolutely set the relationship that I had with him after that. He was just like, and staring straight ahead, so tell me about this fag shit. And I remember thinking, uh-oh. And I was like, we're only going 35 mile an hour, if I open the door and I roll, how they taught you in school, tuck, drop, and roll, I won't get hurt that bad. And then, again, I don't know what came over me, I thought, you know what, screw this, I'm just not gonna deal with it. And I just looked at him and said, what the hell do you wanna know about it? And then, oh God, that set him off. He's like, you're not my kid, I regret the day you were born, never wanted to see you again, don't fucking ever come to my house again, I mean, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and I'm like, okay, and I got back, we got back to the house, and I got on my bike and I left. Well, it was about a couple of weeks later, my mom calls me up, and she's like, where have you been, you haven't been over here the last few weeks, where have you been? And I said, well, here's the deal, Mom, you know, if we wanna hang out or you wanna see me, you need to either come to my house or we'll go somewhere. I said, because Dad's made it very clear that he doesn't ever wanna see me again, I'm not welcome in his house. And my mom paused for a second and she said, I'm having dinner, dinner will be ready at 7.30, be at the front door, and I said, no, you don't understand. You know, Dad's told me not to come back to the house, I'm not coming back to the house. And she repeated herself again, she said, dinner will be on the table at 7:30, be at the door, and I'm, yes, ma'am. So I did, I showed up at the house, knocked on the door, and she came, and we lived at this house at 35th and Joplin, so it sits up on a hill, has a long sidewalk to it. And I walked up to that thing, walk up to the door, knocked on the door, and she opened the door, and she goes, oh, hold on just a second. And she went and she pushed the door closed, but then it came back open about that far. And so I'm standing there at the door, and God dang, and now this is what solidified my relationship with my mother, okay? I mean, my dad already did what he did that, you know, set the tone for future things with him. But my mom, you know, you gotta 13 �remember too, my mom was June Cleaver from Leave It to Beaver. You know, hair in place, white pearls, always a pretty tote and fetch housewife. Honey, I'm home, get me my beer. Okay, dear, here's the paper. I mean, she just, that was my mom. She was just a product of that era, you know? So I never heard her raise her voice to my dad. She never nothing. And the only way I know to describe this is probably pure, raw anger, maybe a little bit of hatred, I don't know it was. It was just so raw. But I heard her scream at my dad. At the top of her voice she's like: this is half my house, he's my son and as long as I live here he'll always be welcome here. And I turned, I walked off, I was, I was like hell, no, I ain't going in there. And I just walked down the sidewalk. It spooked the shit out of me and I'm going down, I'm getting in my car, I'm almost at my car in the street, getting in my car and my mom, holler, she said: where are you going? And I just stopped. And I did. I just didn't know what to do. I absolutely did not know what to do and I just kind of looked at her and there she goes, I'm fixing to put dinner on the table, come on. And I stood there for a second. She said. I said, come on. I said yes, ma'am, you know. And I walked up the stairs and went into the door and, man, I didn't know what I was gonna see. Honestly, it was like I think, maybe I felt like I was gonna see the silence of the land, slaughter or something. I just don't know what I thought and I walked into the table- my dad's sitting at the table, my brother and my sister is sitting at the table and of course my mom's got her apron on and she goes, have a seat, I'm fixing to serve dinner and nobody looked up. Everybody was just looking down at the table. I mean that's the most uncomfortable dinner I've ever had in my life, but you know, it was, it was really weird. After that, with my dad, it was over. My dad tried to pretend that it just never happened. Okay, the stuff, the stuff that he said you just you never forget. I mean, you know. But it taught me a very powerful lesson: you never say anything in anger, because once you've spoken words, you can't take them back. And I never forgot anything that he said. You know I'll never forget him saying: I regret the day you were born. You know, I wish I'd never had you. You're not my child. I mean that ride home, I mean it was just like duck, I'm just a boom, boom, boom. And I just sat there, you know, and just you know. And I finally told him: dude, I remember telling. I said you know what, dad, you have the right to feel the way you feel, and I understand it and I respect that and if that's how you feel, so be it. You know it is what it is, you know, and that was the last thing I really said to him, you know. And then of course, the deal happened, you know, with my mom doing what she did that night. So my mom honestly, truly taught me what the definition of unconditional love is: absolutely 100% compassion, unconditional love, all of it. You know. Now my dad, on the other hand, just tried to pretend like it had never happened. And you know it, it never…. I don’t know, maybe I made peace with it. I don't know that I ever made peace with him. I just never brought it up with it again. But my relationship with him was never the same. Now, in his final years, when he did get finally and really super poor health- and I knew it was to the point that my mom just could no longer deal with it- I did move back to where they were living to help her with him, you know. 14 �And then, of course, he lived about two weeks afterwards his health had deteriorated pretty bad and he would be like, you know, I wish you'd move out here, I wish you'd come out here and I just, you know, I never, I was never gonna be a dick to him or disrespectful to him, but I just, absolutely I think…I don't know if I was just hurt or if I had just lost respect for the man, in all honesty. Toby Jenkins: That was powerful. Very painful for you to talk about it, but now, you probably over the years, you have interacted with people who have… David Dees: It absolutely shaped me. It reminds me of something that happened at Majestic. Golly, I bet we hadn't been open three or four years. And I remember this kid come, and I call him kid, I don't mean it to be insulting, but I mean, to me, especially being almost 70, I mean, an 18, 19, 20 year old is a kid to me, you know? And I remember this little boy came running up to me and he said, he goes, David, one of my friends is crying, you know, on the porch, something's happened. Can you go help him? And I'm like, oh God, you know? Cause I didn't, at that point, I didn't know what happened. Somebody beat this kid up, somebody do something to him, what's happened? So, you know, I came down the stairs, you know, and this kid's following me. The next thing you know, there's a couple of kids, you know, boys and girls following me. And I, as I get to the front door, I hear this kid sobbing. And I mean, the minute I heard the sob, I'm like, okay, this is a broken heart cry. I mean, I knew what it was, you know? So, I walk out here and it's this young boy, and I bet he's probably 19 or 20. I know he wasn't drinking age, he couldn't have been drinking age. And he's sitting on that park bench we had at the front door and he's just crying. And I'm like, okay, buddy, tell me what's going on that is so terrible that you sound like you've lost your best friend. I said, what's going on? You know, and he's like, my... b-boyf-... boyfriend just broke up with me. And of course, he's blowing snot bubbles and everything, you know? And I just chuckle, I'm like, oh God, your first love. Okay, it makes sense, you know? And so, you know, I just kind of looked at him and I said, okay, tell me a little bit about what's going on here. You know, how long have you known this guy? Th-... three months. I'm like, okay, how long y'all been, how long y'all been together again? Th-th-th-th-th-three months. I'm like, okay, and you're how old? N-n-nineteen, I think he said he was nineteen, because I remember saying, okay, to make that math easy for me, let's just say you're 20. So let's see, if you're 10 years old, that's 3,600 days. So if you're 20 years old, that's 7,200 days, you know, that you've lived life. You know, of course, this kid's just kind of looking at me. And I said, so what happened? He was like, he c-c-c-ccheated on me. And I said, okay, is it the first time? Th-... three times. And I said, so you've been together 90 days out of the 7,200 days you've been alive. You've been with somebody 90 days, and he's cheated on you three times in 90 days out of the 7,000 days you've been alive. Yes. And I said, I just looked at him, I said, do you think you deserve that? You know, is that what you think you deserve? And he's like, no. And I said, you know, I wish I could tell you that in a perfect world, this never happens, I said. But the reality is, you're probably gonna go on to love multiple people, and you're probably going to, I hope it doesn't happen, but you're 15 �probably going to go through several relationship breakups. I mean, it's gonna happen. I said, I'm glad you found out in 90 days out of the 7,000 days you've been alive, rather than go through a long time with somebody to find out that they've been doing things like this to you for a long time. I said, the reality is, you're gonna be okay. You know, pick yourself up. You've got friends in here. They're scared to death, they're worried about you. And of course, a couple people are peeking around that wall looking, you know. And I said, you know, they're worried about you. You'll be fine, you know. You're gonna go on, things will happen, you'll be fine. I promise you, you'll be fine. You know, blow your nose, go back inside, and have fun with your friends, I said. But most importantly, know what you are worth. And know that, you know what, if somebody that you've known in that short a period of time can admit that kind of feeling and make you feel that horrible, go, know what you're worth, because you're worth more than that. Toby Jenkins: Wow, powerful. David Dees: Majestic to me has always kind of been like a little ministry, because I mean, and I've described it as that. That's exactly what it was to me. Toby Jenkins: Absolutely. David Dees: And maybe that's been the key to its longevity. Toby Jenkins: So, all of this is very good insight into what our community's like. You mentioned that your brother would call you these names and you were going to these gay bars. David Dees: There's an interesting story on that. My brother was so horrified by what, because he never intended that to happen. He just honestly answered a question to my mother, you know. And then, of course, shortly after that, he moved to Dallas and it was, let's see, my dad died in 84 that my mom was killed in a car wreck a year later. My dad died at Thanksgiving of 84. My mom got killed at Christmas of 85 and let's see. So Jim graduated- well, he was graduated from college when my mom got killed because she was going to his college graduation. I should have been in the car with her. I had gone to a Christmas party the night before and was hungover and didn't make it. So he, once he graduates, he goes to Dallas. So I guess it was seven, seven or eight years later he called me. He's like: I'm coming to town, let's hang, let's hang out. And I said, well, you know, I'm going out with some friends Friday night. You know, if you want to, you you can go with me. I'm going to Zippers. Yes, because it's before Zippers is closed. So I guess it's several years later, actually a couple years later, because Zippers closed, I think in 88, somewhere around there- and Jim was like: okay, and I told him I'm like: don't be an ass if you, if you're going, if, because you know I was, I was in a long-term relationship during that period from 76 to about 83 or 4, you know, and Jim knew about it. He always kind of made jokes about like where's your wife, or you know where's the other woman had, or the little woman, or so you know, he just made comments like that. And so I said something to him about, don't be an ass. You know, I'm gonna be out with some friends. If you want to come hang out- you truly want to hang out, like you 16 �say you do- then let's go. So we're in Zippers and it was busy- and we're standing by the dance floor. You know that long dance floor. So we're between the restroom and the dance floor staring at the DJ booth and a guy walked by and Jim goes- he's cute, and I bit my tongue because I'm like man, I'm gonna knock the hell out of you, because I thought I wasn't sure if he's mocking me or or just being an ass or what you know, and I don't say anything. And then, probably about another 15 or 20 minutes he's like he's hot, and again I'm just, I'm holding my composure, and then all of a sudden he just takes off and I'm like good, I don't have to deal with you. And about 30 minutes later he shows back up. He's like, I got his phone number and I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, dude, what the hell's going on here? I am confused. I'm like, have you switched teams or what? You batting with us? Yes, yeah. And so I looked at him. I said: you know, are you, are you jacking with me, are you serious? He goes: no, I'm serious, and I said so, when did this happen? And he said, he said he always knew, which is why he was driving by Zippers when he saw me going in. But he said my dad's reaction was so adverse that he was afraid to come out and that's why he snuck off and went to Dallas and had been out living in Dallas. Toby Jenkins: So your mother would have died. David Dees: They never knew. Toby Jenkins: So your parents… David Dees: My parents never knew about him. Now I remember my dad, you know, which goes back to the story. My dad would try- well, you know. Well, let's, I'm gonna work on the lawnmower today. Why don't you come by? And I just at this point wanted nothing to do with him. I mean, you know, I was like I already know who you are. I'll probably never forgive you for all of that. And I remember…One day, you know he said something he's like: well, you know you, just you don't come over, you don't hang out anymore. And I, I just lost it on him and I remember looking, I said you know what you, you and I, our dates are done, I'm done, I'm out of here. You know I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not your buddy, your pal anymore. I said: but I tell you what, you want to play daddy to somebody. You've got a kid in there, a young, a young son in there. I suggest you be a man, you play daddy to him, you know, and that's. I walked off from my dad. That was probably really one of the last few things I really said to my dad a lot as far as anything else. I would acknowledge him. I'd say hi, but that was really the last really hard conversation. And he did, he stepped up to the bat for my brother, you know, and became a good dad to my brother. But my brother was so horrified by what had happened that he was afraid to come out. Toby Jenkins: So I wanted to ask you, you have the recollection of them calling us queer and faggot and saying horrible things. Some of the stuff your dad said. What are your feelings about, we've asked this in interviews, how we use phrases today that are painful to us of a certain age, but yet people want us to use those phrases to identify our community? David Dees: I don't like the words, and for the most part, I won't use the words. 17 �Toby Jenkins: The words? David Dees: Fag, queer, you know, sissy, just a lot of them. That being said, I have learned to respect the fact that maybe you will use it, or you don't like to use it. And that's probably an age thing, like I said, I've gotten to the point where I respect the fact that I don't have to like it, I don't have to agree with it, but that's your choice to do. It's not being used out of malice. So I guess it's just a word. It's only got the power that you give it. I mean, let a non-alphabet soup person use the word. I wouldn't say let a non-gay person, but I mean, trans people I think could say it. They're entitled to use it, gay people, lesbian. There's a lot of the definitions maybe that I don't really quite understand because they didn't exist when I was growing up. But if you're in any part of the community, then I feel like it's your choice if you want to use it and you're okay with it, because maybe it does mean something different to you than it does to me. Toby Jenkins: Is it painful to you if somebody calls you queer? David Dees: I don't like it. Toby Jenkins: Does it bring back some of those emotions where you experienced verbal harassment? David Dees: Oh, it'll piss me off. Because to me, it's a derogatory thing. I mean, I depict it like I said, the N-word. I mean, it can be a very powerful derogatory term. And again, I grew up in that era. I remember even for black people, I remember what it was like for them. I saw it firsthand. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so we have you as a young adult. We've talked a little bit about this, and I just want to…when did you make the transition when you began to work for the clubs? And that became... David Dees: Early 20s. I was in my early 20s. Toby Jenkins: And so it has been a lifetime career, right? David Dees: Pretty much, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that would have... Tell me about your first job in a gay bar or a club. David Dees: That would have been in Zippers. Yeah, it would have been in Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Really? David Dees: Yeah, absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year? David Dees: 84, 85. Toby Jenkins: Work you a bartender or… David Dees: Really technical-minded. I mean, I loved electronics, all this stuff. So I learned the lighting system. I could go in and rebuild those lighting controllers and 18 �those drivers. Back then, everything was all mechanical parts, transistors, Triax, just different electrical parts. So something crapped out, you had to chase it down, troubleshoot it down, solder it back, rebuild it. When the lighting fixtures died, changed transformers in them, I just learned how to... The electrical end of it, and knew it, like the back of my hand was very good at it, picked up on it real quick. John Willis was a genius, and he was just a big old geeky nerd. I mean, he was a nerd, and a hi-fi nerd. He went on to own the Gramophone back in the day, which was a big major high-end hi-fi shop. The sound that was in that club, there's a really storied history on that club. I mean, when Kravis had that built, Richard Long and Associates out of New York, designed and built it. The cabinets were custom made for that room. Toby Jenkins: What club? David Dees: Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Kravis had..George Kravis? Dennis Neill: Yeah, and wasn't it the same team that did Studio 54 in New York? David Dees: Yes, yes. Sound Garage, was it Sound Garage? Or what was the name of that? Something Garage, [Paradise Garage] but yes, the Palladium. Yes, that was the company that built the sound systems for these big clubs. And as a matter of fact, was it, there's a hi-fi magazine, a nationwide hi-fi magazine at the time, that did an article about Zippers, talking about how Richard Long and Associates out of New York had designed this sound system and how it was the most powerful sound system west of the Mississippi. Dennis Neill: That's one reason I'm wearing hearing aids. David Dees: Oh, it was an incredible, you know, for a long time, I actually had part of that sound system too. I still have the lighting controllers that came out of that room. Toby Jenkins: So, you were the lighting and sound tech, or were you the DJ? David Dees: Yes, lighting and sound tech. I didn't learn to DJ until 88, 89, when Jeff Lunsford had turned that bar into Sterling's after John closed Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Real quickly, Crash Landing did you ever DJ at Crash Landing? David Dees: No, Crash Landing was over about, oh Lord, Lewis. So, 3rd and Lewis's Warehouse Market, there's a cul-de-sac about 4th and Lewis. So, Crash Landing was on the north side of the cul-de-sac, the church was on the south side. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: But no, Crash Landing was a competitor to Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Okay, would have been open about the same time. David Dees: Yes, I think Crash Landing maybe only lasted what, a year, two years, maybe. It wasn't a very long-lived club. 19 �Toby Jenkins: This was, you say, around 1984? David Dees: 85, 86, somewhere around there. Toby Jenkins: You would have been 22, by then 23, something like that. David Dees: Oh, I gotta do the math. So, 58, yes, yes, I would have been in my mid20s. Toby Jenkins: So, your first job working, that was your full-time job, what you did. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you mentioned you were in a relationship. So, you would have been upfront and personal to see what was happening in the community. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember this organization, which in those days… David Dees: Yes, that's what I was fixing to say. It was TOHR that had the helpline back in John Willis' office. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, which was at Zippers? David Dees: Correct. John had a line back in his office, and it only operated a few hours, on Friday and Saturday night, like seven to nine or something like that. But it was a phone number that you could call. They would tell you where the bars were at, where there were resources for us, if you needed help. I mean, it was literally the lifeline, the beginning of a lifeline for the community. Toby Jenkins: And so, you were aware that there were other people beginning to organize to address… Speaker 3: Yes. Well, and it seems like, when did we do the first Pride at Mohawk Park? I could swear that that went on back, maybe in the late 70s, but I can't remember if it was late 70s or early 80s, because, okay, the first Pride I remember at Mohawk Park, Zippers had a part in it. I think the Toolbox had a part in it. Was it Toolbox, or was it Tracy's New Edition back then, even? Toby Jenkins: And these would have just been picnics in the park? David Dees: Yes, yeah, yeah. And Coors came out and would have the beer tent. They would supply the beer for us. So, the bar owners would buy hamburgers, hot dogs, and supply the fixings. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and then the organization took over the Pride events in 1882. Dennis Neill: Actually, the organization did the first Pride in Chandler Park in 1982, yeah. And we did a few, but then, you're correct, then it morphed into more of the bars taking over Pride for a number of years. David Dees: Well, now this, we were doing this, I think, since like in the 70s, I remember this. 20 �Toby Jenkins: This is important. I've had individuals talk about there were some picnics before the organization had to take it over. David Dees: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: Now, it would be helpful if eventually we can get enough people to give us the details. David Dees: Well, you know what? I do think, after TOHR, because like I said, TOHR didn't exist in the beginning, and then they did exist with Zippers. So, TOHR may have taken over Pride later on. But yes, the first couple ones that I remember were in Mohawk Park, and way at the very back of the park. I think that area's even closed down now. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. I feel like it's real important that while some of you guys are still alive, we need to find somebody who has some documentation. David Dees: Tim Turner should have some information. Toby Jenkins: I keep hearing that there were some Pride picnics, and I know when this organization had, because they've got the receipts to prove it when they had to take over. And it developed, because I know, I saw the records from 1982 where they estimated they had about 400 at Chandler Park. David Dees: Yes. There's a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: So, okay. So, there was that. And this organization, and Dennis and his collaborators felt like they needed to organize to take care of the community. David Dees: Before TOHR, did it have a different name, or was it TOHR, then it became OHR? Dennis Neill: Other way around. David Dees: It was OHR, and then you did a branch of TOHR. Dennis Neill: Correct. David Dees: Okay, all right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So, about this same period, David, how many gay bars and clubs were there in Tulsa? David Dees: Oh, Lord. Toby Jenkins: Let's say about 1984. David Dees: I'm gonna say 12. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: Probably, because they were scattered all over town. Toby Jenkins: Were places like Zippers, were those gender inclusive? Were there men and women in there together, lesbian couples, male couples? 21 �David Dees: You know, Zippers was. Toby Jenkins: Okay, was there… David Dees: While it was, I'm gonna say it was probably a third women and two thirds men, but Zippers was very… Toby Jenkins: And you would have had drag queen entertainment? David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: As a matter of fact, there's an interesting story about that. We had a drag queen in the 80s. It was back when Safeway stores were around, and Safeway stores, there were several of them that were getting robbed, like armed robbery, okay? And they were looking for this beautiful blonde chick. And of course, when the Tulsa Police Department posts her picture, the gay community's like, huh, that's KC Starr, the drag queen. I kid you not, for six months, TPD thought they were looking for a black woman, or a blonde woman, sorry, before they finally figured out they were looking for a drag queen and popped her. Toby Jenkins: And did arrest her? David Dees: Oh yeah, oh yeah, they got her. Toby Jenkins: So it's 1984, there were people beginning to organize outside of just the private gay clubs. When did you hear about AIDS? David Dees: See, this is gonna be a really interesting story because it was such, it was a different time. I mean, today we've got the internet, we've got all this information. You know, back then, the internet, I don't even think when AIDS first, yeah, the internet was probably a thing, but most people didn't know about it. You know, there were bulletin boards and that sort of thing set up, like for colleges where people get information and stuff. But probably about the time, late 80s, early 90s, when AOL became a thing. With AOL coming around, that's when chat rooms were forming. And so as AIDS became more and more talked about and we knew what it was, you know, the gay plague first and the gay cancer and all this stuff, and then all of a sudden you see that it's kind of spreading in other areas. But there were chat rooms out there because I remember having a friend that was HIV positive and finally passed away in 95. But in the early 90s, I would get online and I would search through all these bulletin board rooms out there that had people living with AIDS and survivors because I kept thinking, okay, what are people doing that's working? What are people doing that's not working? You know, because I was desperate to find anything for this friend of mine. You know, like, oh, I make dandelion milk or I do this. You know, so I'm like, well, dandelions supposedly aren't good for you, but how many people are talking about doing this and how many people, you know, are doing whatever? And, you know, now we know that there's so many different strains of it, but then you didn't know that. So really what you were looking at is the people that are living, what are they doing? You know, maybe that's what's keeping them alive. Toby Jenkins: But before the internet, you would have began to hear, talked about. 22 �David Dees: You heard it on the news. That was really all you heard about. Toby Jenkins: You weren't talking about it in the clubs. David Dees: Nobody knew, really knew what it was. I mean, well, okay, when HIV first started, I was in that relationship, okay? That was about the time. So I missed probably the first four or five years of it. You know, because I was in a monotonous relationship. Then I come out and of course, you know, I'm missing friends that I had from 10 years ago, but that wasn't a big deal because everybody left Tulsa then. You went to Dallas, you went to Denver, you went to San Francisco, you went to New York, you went to Atlanta. Everybody left Tulsa, you know? So it wasn't uncommon to all of a sudden, you know, Bob was here, Bob's not here. So you just, you didn't really think about it. I tell you what was the, what really made it hit home for me was, and I think Sharon was the one that got that information for me, was I remembered, I found an old VHS tape that I'd made of the Oklahoma Quilt when it got brought to Tulsa in 92 or 93, I guess is when it was. Dennis Neill: 90 was the first, 1990 was the first. David Dees: Yes, I got it the second time. Toby Jenkins: Here was the first time it was on display, it was 1990? David Dees: Yes, at the Cox Convention Center, Civic Center. So I went through with the videotape, because as a matter of fact, I just put that on Facebook not too long ago, that video that I had transcribed, because I think I sent you a link to it or something, you'd asked me about that so y'all could have that for the record. So that, man, I'll never forget going in there and it's such a huge room and what felt like were thousands of panels to me. I mean, because they were in great big squares, you know, like what, 50 foot by 50 foot or more, maybe they're 100 by 100 foot squares, you know, with all these panels in a big square. I mean, it was just huge and there were, it felt like hundreds of them, of those big squares in there. And you're walking through and you're looking at this thing and you're like, holy shit, so that's what happened to Bob. Oh my God, there's John. Oh my God, there's Terry. I mean, it was just, it was fucking nuts. I mean, back then, cell phones didn't exist. If you called somebody long distance, long distance was expensive, so you just lost track of people, you know? And it wasn't like you had a way, you didn't even know where somebody moved and if they moved, how do you know where they moved to and how do you get their phone number? And, you know, and then God forbid, it's a dollar a minute to call somebody and talk to them. Toby Jenkins: During this time, so chronologically, I'm gonna ask this. So you're working at Zippers…. David Dees: By then, I was, let's see, Sterling's, Sterling's and then after that was Deep Elm at 61st and Memorial, which was the old Palladium. Lord, and then after that, I did go spend three or four years in a straight club. I wound up, Steve Kitchell owned the Palladium that was at Eaton Square at 61st and Memorial. Well, then 23 �Cindy Robson, who is part of the Robson family, had RCB Bank at the time, back in the day and was married or somehow part of Walmart heir. She opened that bar and called it Deep Elm for a while. Well, she wound up losing it, and that's when Steve Kitchell took me and put me in the Ocean Club, and I spent four years in the Ocean Club. Toby Jenkins: As a DJ? David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: DJ and lighting. Lighting and sound? David Dees: Yes. So for four years, I was kind of out of the gay bar. Toby Jenkins: And then you went from that to David Dees: Concessions. Toby Jenkins: Concessions. David Dees: Correct. Toby Jenkins: And then you went from concessions to... David Dees: To the Silver Star. Toby Jenkins: Silver Star. And then Silver Star, you opened Majestic. David Dees: Majestic. Yeah, 23 years ago. Toby Jenkins: So I just wanted to get all that on the record. During that time, back to HIV-AIDS, did y'all begin to see the community organize and do fundraisers? David Dees: Yes. But I didn't get to be a lot of part of that because I was working at Ocean Club. But that reminds me, there was the boxer, Tommy Morrison. Toby Jenkins: Yes. David Dees: Who contracted HIV. And he was a big player at the Ocean Club. So when that happened... Toby Jenkins: He was an Oklahoma player. David Dees: Yes. That sent... Toby Jenkins: A title holder. David Dees: That sent ripples through the straight community. I mean, when I say ripples, I'm talking like six foot waves. I mean, it was insane. Toby Jenkins: And you were working in a straight club. David Dees: Yes. Yes. And I remember the wave of panic that started going through that bar. Toby Jenkins: When it began to hit what we thought was... 24 �David Dees: All of a sudden, it's in the straight community. Toby Jenkins: Heterosexual community. Yes. David Dees: Yes. David Dees: So then, by that time, when was it that I left? I left OC in 95. So in 95 is when I'm back in our community. Because it's like I told Steve. I said, man, I've been out of my element four years. I appreciate everything that I got to do. And I've lived a dream here. But I'm a fish out of water. And I needed to be back in my element. So then I stepped back into the world where all of a sudden, we're doing all these drag benefits for people that are dying. And as a matter of fact, it's really funny too. The first benefit that Majestic did right after we opened was a drag show benefit to raise money for a headstone for Caitlin Kane, Chad Burrell. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. I remember it. David Dees: Because his family wouldn't put a headstone up. And all of his friends were so distraught over that that they came to me and they said, can we do something and get a headstone? I'm like, yeah, we'll raise some money. And we raised it and we had it made. And his friends had input on what they wanted in it. And we had it placed on his grave. It's still out there. Toby Jenkins: So anything else about how AIDS impacted the community and the fundraising efforts that were going on in the clubs and things like that? David Dees: God, they were just constant. You had like, what, Red Ribbon Review. You had, I mean, everybody was doing it. It seemed like we had food pantries, I think. TOHR, I think, did a lot of stuff. Y'all had a food bank, I think, at one time that we would raise and donate canned goods for and stuff. Catholic Charities. Toby Jenkins: So you had the clubs. When do you remember the Tulsa County Health Department and the HIV testing that began to happen in the clubs? David Dees: I remember that happening with us. I don't think that that was really being done before us because I remember... Toby Jenkins: But what club do you first remember there were people there to do testing? David Dees: Okay, TOHR did STD testing for, like, syphilis and gonorrhea. Did we even have HIV tests for a long time? Dennis Neill: Well, what we did, many of us that were doing the STD testing, then we got certified with the Health Department to do HIV testing. But we did that at the OSU Clinic on Southwest Boulevard. David Dees: That's correct. You are right. You're right. I do remember that now. Dennis Neill: We did not do HIV testing in the bars. David Dees: Yeah. Yeah, we first started doing that... Toby Jenkins: TOHR didn't. 25 �David Dees: No, nobody did. Nobody did. Dennis Neill: Not that I'm aware of. David Dees: No one did. Toby Jenkins: Well when, because when I first came out that was the first thing I was told. David Dees: I think I remember we being the first ones to do. Toby Jenkins: At Star? David Dees: No, at Majestic. Toby Jenkins: No. I first met you, you were the DJ. I was at the Star. David Dees: We did not do HIV testing at the Star. Absolutely did not. Toby Jenkins: Yeah you did. Because the first time I ever walked in a gay bar I saw a table and they said what are they doing they said they're doing HIV testing and that would have been in the late 90s. David Dees: I don't remember that at all. Not at the Star. Absolutely no. Dennis Neill: Well that that could be because you know Hope testing by then was doing mobile testing and I remember going to Renegades and they were testing at Renegades and that would have been in the late, after we spun off Hope. I don't know if we did testing in the bars while Hope was part of OHR. Toby Jenkins: Well I may have it all blurred in my mind. David Dees: Yeah, the Star never did. No, I think they would do a few fundraise drag shows kind of things but no. Toby Jenkins: Okay, the reason I'm saying that is because first time I ever went into a club and you know participated in it was at the Silver Star and in my mind you know maybe Concessions I don't know. I can remember somewhere in a club I asked what that was during that period and my thought is I want to get tested but what if I find out I test positive and I'm here in a club I don't really want that all out here I want to do that privately so I went to Tulsa County Health Department to be tested. David Dees: You know we would set up a little spot upstairs that we curtained off. Toby Jenkins: Definitely at Majestic. Yes. From the day it opened it was serving the community. Because I came to you and said I need to register voters. David Dees: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You set me up, you gave me my own little space. And we registered about 6,000 people through Majestic in a four-month period. I mean I, we would, David and them would line them up just like cattle chutes. Run them up. You had to be registered. This is when we were fighting over marriage equality and George 26 �Bush had said he was going to put the constitutional amendment. So that would have been you know 2003, 2004. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. David Dees: It took a lot of heat for doing HIV testing in the bar from a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: Oh really? David Dees: Oh absolutely. They're like well God what a downer, what are you going to do if this happens? I said you know we've got things in place but but here's the here's the deal and what I would do you know they would be set up and people would just be staring. So what I figured I had to do every time and for the longest time I did do was when they'd come and set up and we'd get people in there I'd go in and get tested and then as soon as I did it you'd have three or four other people do it. Toby Jenkins: So nobody wanted to be the first person to get tested. At this point our community didn't sometimes want to face the reality. David Dees: No absolutely not. Toby Jenkins: They didn't want to face their own mortality. They also didn't want to they didn't want to really be involved in fighting for their own liberation because those kind of things were dull and a downer and and you know I can remember trying to register people to vote and them just cussing me out. Why are you bothering this dude? I'm trying to get my buzz on you know they would get mad. David Dees: I'll say this about our community. Our community can be very interesting. I've said many times that it never ceases to amaze me. The people that scream the loudest about discrimination are oftentimes the worst about doing it and you know I've been it's been said to me many times about what are straight people doing in Majestic? Well this is a man's bar you know I've heard this stuff for years. I remember the Silver Star back in the days when we were also still half country half punk because it started out as country okay and I remember the women lined up along one wall and the men on the other side of the building just glaring at each other across the thing because the men hated that I would play waltzes because the women would waltz and they were too slow and they wanted to two-step and the women hated it because the men would two-step and slam into them. Toby Jenkins: Interesting. I just knew I loved it, it's beautiful. David Dees: Yeah, and the Silver Star really, again, was something that shaped me, that I thought, okay, if I ever get my own room, this is how it will operate. This is what I will tolerate, this is what I will not tolerate. And I've always run that room that way. Toby Jenkins: We've talked a little bit about the violence and the attacks and people being threatened and people being accosted. Do you have any recollection of, like, we've talked about people calling you names and the police harassing you. Do you have recollections of acts of violence? And I wanna lead into this to the night that you hosted the memorial for the Pulse Nightclub shooting. But prior to this, do you remember over the years, acts of violence we talked about? 27 �David Dees: When I was younger, absolutely, I remember going to the bars and what it was like. Toby Jenkins: I think you mentioned some club owner had been killed or? David Dees: That was probably a situation where somebody might have been out doing their thing and ran across somebody that was unsuspected while they were doing their thing. But there was a club owner that was, well, that was murdered out at Mohawk Park. That had a drag cabaret at, do you remember who? Okay. I just didn't wanna say his name. Toby Jenkins: If it's on public record, you can share it. David Dees: Who knows if that's public record now? I mean, because again, it's probably on microfiche somewhere, but I mean, where do you find that microfiche? And did that microfiche survive? Dennis Neill: It's on our website, our history website. David Dees: So, you know, that was- It's Mr. Tim. Dennis Neill: Well, I thought it was the partner of Mr. Tim that was murdered. David Dees: For some reason, I thought it was Mr. Tim. I think it was him, actually, butDennis Neill: And he was also winning the publisher of Another World. David Dees: Yes, I forgot about that little rag mag, yeah. Sure enough, it was Mr. Tim. It was kind of our version of Twit and the Galey back in the day. Sure was. [Editor’s note – In 1990, bar owner Tim Turner wrote a history of the early gay bar life, “A Flash from the Past,” which is in the archives and available at history.okeq.org. In the article, Tim clarifies the Mohawk murder: The Blue Haven opened November, 1948 by the 'much loved' Producer, Activist and Entrepreneur, the late M.C. Parker. M.C. Parker and Tim Warren would later cultivate and produce the largest, most spectacular Oklahoma Gay Event in history, the Miss Gay Oklahoma Pageant at the Camelot Inn. (Tim Warren, his life partner forty years his younger, was later murdered and his body discovered in Mohawk Park. The murder was never solved, as well as most gay murders in our city as I recall.] Toby Jenkins: So, about the violence, being yelled at, being threatened, were there stories of people were beat up outside of the clubs in those 80s, 70s, 80s? Speaker 4: 70s, early 80s, yeah. Maybe it picked up a little bit when AIDS first came on the scene because we all of a sudden became the plague. And this is probably where my, again, another unpopular thing that I always did. I was always kind of straight women, okay? Because when AIDS was just full blown and everybody hated the gays and you couldn't touch them and God forbid, don't eat off a fork or a spoon or something that they've touched or drink out of their glass. Straight women, I mean, we had our fag hags for lack of better words, you know? 28 �So, straight women, to me, were our first ally, really, honestly. So, I always made it a point to treat them with respect because, again, my deal was the only way that I am ever going to educate anybody about gay people is to show you that my skin is the same as yours, it feels the same as yours, it has hair like you. When I cut myself, I bleed red just like you. I am no different from who you are other than the fact of who I fall in love with. Other than that, there's no difference. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember when y'all agreed to host the memorial for the Pulse nightclub shooting? And what a difference the community, I mean, there were skyscrapers that were lit in rainbow colors to show solidarity. David Dees: You know, but here's the deal, Toby. We've always been, Tulsa has always been like that, it seems like. I mean, I noticed that, especially probably in 95, 96, towards 2000, okay, after I left Ocean Club, I didn't tell anybody where I was going. Nobody knew where I was going. I just left, abruptly left. One weekend I was there, one weekend I was not. Nobody knew. So then I'm at Concessions, and it's probably two or three months down the road, and all of a sudden I see three or four girls in there that I knew from the Ocean Club, you know? And then a week later, there were 40 or 50 women in there that I knew from the Ocean Club. You know, eight, nine months later, half the room I knew from the damn Ocean Club. You know, and then all of a sudden, with those women, two or three boyfriends or husbands. And then more, and then more. And it just, all of a sudden, Concessions was the first bar that really was a melting pot. And it was. Because it was right there on Peoria, in the middle of the strip, everything. And that's when, initially when they opened, you entered in the back door through the parking lot alley. Well, as things started growing, Kirk was like, you know what, fuck this shit, we're gonna open the front door, we're here, we're queer, and we're gonna know. And for years, the Peoria, or Brookside Merchants Association, for probably four years of the five years that bar was open, ignored that bar. That it didn't exist. They did everything, boo-ha-ha, all that crap. Never once were we ever included in anything, with anything with the Brookside Merchants Association, never. And then we did that drag queen car wash on the back parking lot. Toby Jenkins: At Concessions? David Dees: Yes. Courtney Farrell and the Brookside Divas did that drag queen car wash. And it blew up. And they did multiple drag queen car washes on that parking lot to raise money. But, you know, getting back to what you were saying with that Pulse thing. You know, it's really funny because all of the years that we've been there, not once have I ever worried about anything happening in that bar. Because it seems like the straight community loves that bar as much as the gay community loved that bar. And I always felt like people just wouldn't tolerate anything being done to it. And nothing in 23 years has ever been done to that room. It's never been vandalized. It's nothing. Toby Jenkins: Very good. Do you remember the Pulse nightclub memorial service that was there? 29 �Toby Jenkins: I can't remember if GT was the mayor or if he was a candidate. He was there. Um, he's running, I can't remember. David Dees: I'll never forget you telling, you shouting, we love you Orlando. And all those people. I mean, it was loud. I mean, there was a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: And the skyscrapers downtown. They had put rainbow things on it. David Dees: It was insane. Toby Jenkins: And the police, for every gay person, there was two police there to protect us that night when we went out to the Guthrie Green. David Dees: I remember they were on the roof of my apartment across from the club, sharpshooters up there. Toby Jenkins: I just wonder, when we came to that place to remember it, it was important that the interfaith community and corporate leaders and political figures knew that we considered that our sacred space, that it was there because people had been murdered in Orlando in a club. DavidDees: Absolutely. Just for having a good time, being themselves. They were hurting nobody. Toby Jenkins: And I just want to say for viewers, multiple times you have hosted memorial services for individuals. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Fundraisers for people in crisis. And for causes, not just for the LGBT community, but foster care organizations, domestic violence organizations. David Dees: Because I mean...Emergency Infant Children Services, for example. We have lesbian women that have children that depend on that, you know? And I've had people go, well, that's not a gay organization. They're helping gay people. What the hell does it matter? And again, you know, it boils down to, even with things that are going on now, why are you still letting these straight people in here? You know what, dude, here's the deal. We're not gonna get anywhere by being shitty to somebody. The only thing that we can do is continue to educate people. Toby Jenkins: Can we put that on a banner? David Dees: Well, it's the truth, it is the truth. Toby Jenkins: It needs to be a logo. David Dees: Why are you trying to, you know, some bad man touched you and hurt you, okay? They're not all doing it, so why are you gonna be mean to everybody? You know, we've got a lot of people out there. Again, the only way we are ever going to get them to understand who we are is to educate them as to who we are and that we are no different. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember when we had the first parade and I believe you, I don't remember what club it was, but I remember you being at the parade and we had a float. I know Renegade's float caught on fire, but … David Dees: Yeah, I just, the thing that stands out for me is I will never, y'all were coming down 15th Street, it seemed like, and I think it was the World got a picture of that flag with everybody carrying that flag. Thing was huge and beautiful, God, it was beautiful. Toby Jenkins: And then for years, we organized over there at the Tulsa Theater, whatever it's called now. What is it called now? David Dees: Tulsa Theater, it was Brady Theater back then. Toby Jenkins: And we would organize in that parking lot and come down and right in the middle of the bike race, the bike race, and you guys had to do all of that. And then the city council told us we had to change our, look, had to change our route. David Dees: You know what's funny about that damn bike race now? As soon as that bike race is over, that crowd comes into the club and it'll catch a drag show. It's, well, you know, we, I remember, I think we were one of the first LGBT organizations that put money into a race. We'd do like a little cash prize for the blah, blah, blah, whatever, little bounty thing or something. And I remember the first time I walked up to them, I'm like, what's this y'all are doing? And they're like, well, you know, different people, like, you know, the first person that comes through that's wearing a Santa hat on, you know, blah, blah, blah. So they'd have all these different things open and I'd be like, okay, you know, 500 bucks for this person or whatever. And I'll never forget the first time I heard, you know, Club Majestic, blah, blah, blah, yeah. And people were like, what? Toby Jenkins: I want to say this for our viewers. I've always appreciated so much your support of all of the community and for everything that was happening. And the unique thing about you, David Dees, is Club Majestic, for as long as I was involved here at the Equality Center, was one of our corporate sponsors for Pride. Now, let me make sure our audience understands the difference. You would write a significant check out of your own business and personal to corporately support Pride as a cash gift. In addition to, you would let us have fundraisers there to raise money for Pride and all the different accoutrements of that. Many times, our clubs would let us have fundraisers at their clubs, and then they counted that as their sponsorship, and they wanted to be recognized as a sponsor, yet we were the ones that raised the money in their clubs. And I was happy to do that. But it alwaysDavid Dees: I get it with them. Toby Jenkins: Because you wrote a check and gave it to us and then let us have a fundraiser there too. David Dees: Yeah, a lot of these smaller clubs just didn't have the means that we had. You know, we were fortunate to be the big boy on the block. So, you know, and when you're the big boy on the block, you've got a little more responsibility and a little more, and you've got more leeway to be able to do something. 31 �Toby Jenkins: But I want it on the record. David Dees: I appreciate that. Toby Jenkins: You did more than the others. David Dees: It was never a thing that was done for recognition. Toby Jenkins: It was just, yeah. So I wonder if our panel, does anybody else have a question for David Dees? And do you have anything specifically you want to make sure we include in our interview? David Dees: Man, I had so many notes. You know, one thing that I wanted to mention too, that I think is really important to bring up in our history is, again, it goes back to back when HIV was devastating us. There's, up on North Denver, there's, I think it's a little Catholic, Hispanic church now, white. But that's where Catholic Charities had the hospice. And that's where I had a lot of friends that actually… Toby Jenkins: St. Joseph House. David Dees: Yes, yes. You know, I had many friends that wound up there because their families either couldn’t take care of them or wouldn't take care of them. And some people I know that passed away there, went there because their families didn't know. Oh, that's another thing I was going to bring up too. Do you remember when TOHR was at 36th and Peoria? Up above and Daddy's Bar and Grill was there. John Willis had that. Dennis Neill: And well, wasn't it Rick's? David Dees: Yes. Dennis Neill: And it wasn't John, it was Jim. David Dees: Jim from, he was with the Tulsa County Court. Jim and Rick, Rick was his partner. And then after they closed it, John did Daddy's there. Dennis Neill: That's right, right. Toby Jenkins: TOHR's first LGBT center. David Dees: Was that, or were you at 41st and Harvard first? Dennis Neill: Yes, the only thing at 41st and Harvard, which is actually 39th and Harvard. It wasn't really large. So we didn't have a community meeting. David Dees: That's correct. Dennis Neill: And we did not have a store there. David Dees: You all just moved the phone lines there, didn't you, from Zippers. Dennis Neill: And then we ran HIV testing out there for a while. David Dees: That's correct. Dennis Neill: And then we ran the AIDS Support Program out there. 32 �Toby Jenkins: Anything else on your notes? David Dees: Well, I definitely, you know, and you do have it on your site, but I think it's important to bring up that Tim Turner, who owned Tim's Playroom, wrote a history of, I mean, like, good Lord. I wish people could have met Gene from the Bamboo Lounge. What a character, what a character. That's all I've got about him. What a character. Everybody had to have a rite of passage. You took them in to meet Gene. Toby Jenkins: At the Bamboo. David Dees: At the Bamboo, yes. And Gene would, we would be like, Gene, John's never been here before. You need to make him a pair of jeans. And oh, Lord. He, boy, he was a flamboyant little queen. Like, first thing, here's what I remember about the Bamboo, okay? I remember walking to the Bamboo and like, what a beautiful aquarium behind the bar with, I've never seen so many dicks in my life in an aquarium. They had dicks that blew air bubbles and dicks that the fish were eating algae off of it. I mean, there were penises everywhere in that aquarium. They probably even had a penis-shaped fish that you just didn't know was in there because you were too busy looking at all the penises in the aquarium. Lord have mercy. But man, what an incredible man he was. He was such, such a neat man. Toby Jenkins: It was such a loss when that club closed. David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Because it had the distinction of being one of the longest clubs around. And we tried, at the time, the present administration, or the previous administration of Obama, they were beginning, the National Park Service was looking for historical places to register on the historical registry. And we were trying to work to get Bamboo included in that. And then it closed. David Dees: You know, the, what was it, another thing that, you know, our bars, too, were so diverse back then. You had your gay men's bar, you had the cruise bar, you had the dance club, the women had their bar. You know, so it was like, I remember, the Zebra Lounge was pretty much down about, what, sixth to seventh on Main. It was the block north of Harrington's, when Harrington's was there. You know, that was where your older clientele hung out. You know, Taj Mahal, of course, was your little hustler bar. Lord have mercy. We had so many different, unique things. You know, TNT's, how long did TNT's go on for? They were a good 20 years. Toby Jenkins: Oh, longer than that. David Dees: Easy. You know, I remember the Club, when it was on Memorial, back in the day. I'll never forget. Jane Ann Earl. Lord, I was, okay, I was working at a bank at the time. I'd just gotten, I was a bank teller for like two or three years, and I'll never forget. You know, she was a larger than life lesbian woman, okay? I mean, and she was a big woman, and she drove a Pontiac Bonneville, big old tank car, and she'd come flying that thing, and I always, here's what I remember about her. On her dash of her car, she had like a leopard print dash cover, and she was just rough and tough. I mean, she was tough, and I always loved her, and she would always look at me, she'd be like, hi, baby. Oh, Lord, she was such a neat lady, Jane Ann Earl. I need to go try to look that name up. She'd have to be dead by now. 33 �Toby Jenkins: The helpful thing from this interview is that we now know that Patty was your high school friend. And rescued you in the street, made you come back in with wanting to get her interviewed. Anything else on your notes? David Dees: And she may or may not remember that, but I was just like, she was like, David Dees, David Dees, I'm Patty Murray, we went to high school together. Don't hurt me. Toby Jenkins: Anything else on your notes that you want to make sure we include? And then I would like if Mary or Dennis have a question for you. David Dees: Oh, absolutely. Let's see. Oh, the Camelot Inn, Trudy Tyler, our first Miss Gay Oklahoma, U.S. of A. She was crowned there. Toby Jenkins: Very good. And that would, do you remember the year? David Dees: I want to say 75, I think. Toby Jenkins: And I've been told, Dennis may know from the archives, because I think it's included in our archives, and it was covered by the media. They would have people protest outside that the Camelot was hosting the pageant. David Dees: Absolutely, absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And the Camelot was a bougie place in those days. David Dees: Yes, it was, absolutely, very much so. And I don't remember if she wrote for the World or the Tribune, but Joanne Gordon. I mean, that lady, and I think I furnished y'all with copies of that, too, where she's like, Joanne discovers the Fruit Loop, and she wrote a whole article, because she would, her and her husband, they'd write editorial, you know, just a little commentary every day, editorial-type thing. Toby Jenkins: And for our audience, what was the Fruit Loop? David Dees: Oh, Lord, the Fruit Loop was, okay, let's see. We go down to 6th Street, okay, so it started at 9th Street, go down past Holy Family Cathedral to 6th Street, then we would head east on 6th Street to Main, and then we'd come up Main, go past Kathy's, 8th and 9th on Main, and then turn right at the apartment complex that was there, and go back to Boulder. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so these were all one-way streets in downtown Tulsa. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And it was like a cruising place where people could… David Dees: Hundreds of people cruising, and it was every night of the week, but Friday and Saturday night, you'd have 100 cars on that parking lot across from Holy Family Cathedral until the cops would run us off. Toby Jenkins: I may know a little bit about it, or maybe not, but it was very popular. David Dees: I know a lot about it. 34 �Toby Jenkins: All right, our panel, does anybody else have a question for David Dees? We've got a person who was there and saw it happen. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: When did the Fruit Loop's driving end? David Dees: 80s, probably, yeah. Because all the bars started moving out of the downtown area. Because for the longest time, they were all downtown. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: As a bar owner, what do you think makes you be so benevolent to the community and take it upon yourself to assist the community in so many ways as you have over the years, rather than just sit back and rake in the money and not care about who you're taking it from? David Dees: Probably being as old as I am and experienced. Honestly, I'm like I said, it all goes back to that deal with my mom. Honestly, with me was she? She just showed me honestly what unconditional love was, what come, what compassion was, and I think I kind of learned: you learn what you will put up with and you learn what you will not put up with. You know, and so then you have to learn how to apply that evenly across the board, and I've always I've, in running that club, it's always been with me, what's fair is fair, and if it's fair for you, then it's fair for you. It's not, it's just not ever been one segment was treated better than another segment. It can't be that way. And it's also been an educational tool, like I've said many times. You know, I I don't want to feel like somebody, oh, you have that little Trump derangement syndrome where I say it's like a ministry. But it kind of was. It was a ministry in a way, because it was a tool to teach people who we were. Again, it was like: you know, look, I have hair on my arm, so do you? So do you? Look, I believe red, so do you. You know I love, so do you. Now, who I love may be different from who you love, but you know that was that was always….just the whole point was: you know we're here, you know what you're, welcome. Come on in, learn about us, have fun with us. We'll have fun with you. Toby Jenkins: So it'd be. To recap, it would be your mother's influence made you look out for others, and not just. David Dees: I think absolutely that that moment with my mom was probably one of the most incredibly pivotal moments in my life. It was. It was a huge life lesson. It's a life lesson I never forgot. David Dees: Dennis, do you have a question for our guests today. Dennis Neill: Not at this time, thank you. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I know that you are maybe not as visible at the club. Do you want to acknowledge the people that run the place? David Dees: Yes, I'm definitely not. I mean, I'm a couple years from 70, so I'm definitely not as up to being up there. I definitely can't race up down the stairs like I used to. As far as hands-on, I'm still very much hands-on behind the scenes I can. I can assure people that I've got people in place, that they're- they're still doing what it is I want done and running it how I want done and a lot of the things that are in place- the, the security that's in place. That's how I want it done and I want it very 35 �visible. I want people to know that, you know we're very well aware of what's going on out there. Toby Jenkins: And the manager today is Chris Shoaf. David Dees: Chris has run that for me technically for probably easily ten years, but he was also a big part even before then. Toby Jenkins: And he would be known to our viewers because of his activism, work and his being a strong advocate. David Dees: Absolutely, I I think I think people don't really realize the amount of time and the and the things that you know, Chris… Chris can be very vocal sometimes and I think some people are like, oh, it's a little dramatic. But I can promise you, if there's something going on, he's the one that's out there barking. He's the dog out in the yard in the middle of the night barking to let you know that, hey, something's going on. Maybe you ought to get up right. Toby Jenkins: And that is the manager at the Majestic. I know another thing I want to before we finish. So in a minute I'm going to ask you what we ask all of our guests: do you have a message for the future, for young people or the people who come after us? So in a minute I'm going to ask you for that. But I wanted you to tell a little bit about I know you live in a house that's on wheels and live in a travel trailer motor home, and I know you're a part of a group of LGBT people that get together. Toby Jenkins: Yes, what's the name of that group? David Dees: There's a couple now. There's one that's based out of Oklahoma City: Pride in the Pines LGBT Camping, and then the greater Tulsa LGBT Camping. It was based, you know, on eastern Oklahoma and then, of course, there's a lot of intermingling with the members in each group. Toby Jenkins: And kind of what is its focus. David Dees: You get together, just get together, hang out, meet, meet, and I mean it's just absolutely, yeah, absolutely, it's fun, that's I used to run, Dennis and John. Their first time I ran into them camping was at Natural Falls, I believe. Toby Jenkins: Very good. So as we finish our time together, I'm going to ask you: do you have a message for the future, for those that come after us? Is there something you want to say? David Dees: Know your worth, absolutely know your worth. Don't settle for anything less you are. I feel like I've tried to lead life by the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you, but don't expect them to do unto you, or you're probably going to be sorely disappointed. But you always, always, always, lead by example, and I get it. Sometimes it's hard and sometimes you turn the cheek, sometimes you get a few teeth knocked out, but it's just how…It's how you've got to do it. It reminds me of the days of Act Up, you know, and I've heard it applied to the riots that went on with George Floyd and all this. I, you know, and I'm somebody said: 36 �well, I just don't agree with doing this and doing that. Well, I remember with Act Up, I didn't used to like some of the things that act up did. I know why they did it, because sometimes you have to go to that extreme to make people stop and go whoa and and look at things and think. Toby Jenkins: And Act Up would have been an activist group that was very visible and involved in the 80s and some of their protests were pretty dramatic, everything from sprinkling the ashes the cremated remains of their lovers on the lawn of the White House, and then they had protests at the cathedrals because of their stand on condemning condom use. David Dees: Absolutely and like, like I said, some of them at the time. Some of these things seem really extreme but again, sometimes you have to stop, step outside of the box, look at what's real. What's going on? What, what is, what is the intent here? Sometimes it looks malice, but maybe it's not. Toby Jenkins: Our time today has been with David Dees. Any closing words, sir, before we finish our time together? David Dees: No, I'm happy. I touched on a lot of things that were important, I think. And there's there's a lot of history that a lot of people don't know about. Toby Jenkins: So when are you going to run for an elected office> David Dees: Absolutely never. Toby Jenkins: Well, I think you've got some campaign slogans. David Dees: I intend to live out my the rest of my years. That's another thing that people need to remember. Live your life happy. That's it. In the grand scheme of things, nothing else matters. Water off a duck's back Toby Jenkins: You've been listening to David Dees David Dees: Preach the gospel. Toby Jenkins: Here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, the headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality and he is a part of our history project. Thank you. Addendum: Given David’s initial work at Zippers, the editor has added the following for the Zippers Facebook page established in 2016 by a group of former patrons of the bar: ABOUT ZIPPERS In 1975, construction began on a 6,023 square foot building on 33rd Street, just west of South Yale Avenue in Tulsa, OK. Completed early in 1976, it originally opened as Casino Disco, a private gambling and dancing club that did not remain open for long. An upscale discotheque named Casablanca followed, but it too was short lived, and was followed by yet another club named Sweetwater Station, which failed to develop a following and also closed in a matter of months. By 1978, the building was just a 37 �little over two years old and had been home to three failed ventures--but that was about to change. In the Fall of 1978, John Willis with the help of an investor from a prominent Tulsa family opened Zippers Electric Circus, a club that catered to a mostly gay clientele, although everyone was welcome. Prior to Zippers, Willis was doing sound work at the Old Plantation, another gay club near 51st and Yale, which shared a parking lot with a Steak and Ale Restaurant. Willis used his knowledge and experience to ensure that the sound system at Zippers would be the finest in the area at the time, and it was said to be the best west of the Mississippi River. Zippers had an intimate atmosphere, and reliably packed in patrons night after night. Theme parties such as Fantasy in Red, Fantasy in Black, and Hollywood Nights attracted even larger crowds, and from time to time entertainers such as Sylvester and Pamala Stanley appeared in the club. Zippers was a trend setter by establishing shared men's and women's rest rooms, which often surprised first time visitors. Zippers was a big hit, and pulled in visitors from other states. It was not unusual to see tags from five or more states on cars in the parking lot. After 10 years, Willis opened a new club named Strokes in the Brookside area of Tulsa, and closed Zippers, ending an era that had to be experienced to be understood, and one that created many friendships and fond memories for everyone fortunate enough to have been a part of it. John Willis passed away in 1993, but he and the establishment he envisioned and created lives on today in the memories of many. This group is dedicated to John Willis, the staff at Zippers who greeted all who entered, poured their drinks, mixed the music, cleaned up the mess, and to everyone who came to dance, drink, and made Zippers a part of their lives from 1978 to 1987. 38 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] David Dees Interview Subject The topic of the resource Donald Dees Oral History Project Interview from April 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Dees, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 21, 2026 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived This interview with David Dees offers a deep dive into the history of LGBTQ+ community life in Tulsa, including early club culture, personal experiences with family acceptance, and the evolution of Pride events. It provides valuable insights into the challenges and resilience of the community over decades. Join us for an in-depth interview with David Dees as he shares his experiences and insights from decades of activism, community organizing, and the history of LGBTQ+ life in Tulsa. Discover stories of community resilience, the fight against AIDS, and the importance of education and inclusion. 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV David Dees Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV/AIDs interview LGBT history OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pride Toby Jenkins transcript video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/21d02a6d92c0f1bbc38aeacb4b197e21.mp4 d3d143b8975e231e89aee433ebbabac8 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/7fda3ee82db9d17466e3443f6b5400c5.pdf 2acf3458bfdcb44db5b39b13eba43da3 PDF Text Text �������������������������� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2003] Dennis Neill Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 10, 2003 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on December 10, 2003. Dennis discusses his early life growing up in Ponca City, Oklahoma, experiences at Oklahoma State University and the University of Texas Law School. In 1977, he moved to Tulsa to begin his legal career and then joining the Schusterman family in their oil and gas business. As a co-founder of the Tulsa Chapter of Oklahomans for Human Rights, which in 1985 became Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then in 2006 Oklahomans for Equality, he reviews the early years of the organization and involvement with other civic activities and the beginnings of the HIV/AIDS crisis in Tulsa and the community response. Subject The topic of the resource Dennis Neill Oral History Project Interview from December 10, 2003 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dennis Neill, Laura Belmonte 2003 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OkEq OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Equality Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Texas University of Texas Law School video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2020] Donald Fruechting Interview Subject The topic of the resource Donald Fruechting Oral History Project Interview from November 20, 2020 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Morgan Allen on November 20, 2020. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong><strong> </strong>Donald discusses his early life, family background, military service, personal relationships, and experiences living with HIV. Donald shares insights into his identity as a gay man, the challenges he faced, and the importance of community and family support. He reflects on his journey through love, loss, and spirituality, emphasizing the blessings he has received throughout his life. Donald was born on July 4th, 1938 in rural Owasso, Oklahoma and passed on August 21, 2021 in Tulsa. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donald Fruechting, Morgan Allen, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 20, 2020 2020 AIDS/HIV available at Center Donald Fruechting HIV HIV/AIDs interview Morgan Allen OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Dwight Kealiher Interview Subject The topic of the resource Dwight Kealiher OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from February 13, 2019 Description An account of the resource Dwight was interviewed on February 13, 2019, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender Oral History Project. Dwight discusses his early life, experiences at Oklahoma State University (the Oklahoma A&amp;M College) in the 1950s, his marriage and family and later coming out. As a CPA in Tulsa, he reviews his long-time association with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (now Oklahomans for Equality,) Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN), Tulsa Cares and Health Outreach Prevention Education (HOPE). Dwight was born on August 15, 1937, in Checotah, Oklahoma and passed on August 15, 2024. <strong>A copy of the transcript is on file in the History Project Archives at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dwight Kealiher, Angus Henderson, Allison Richmond, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 13, 2019 2019 Allison Richmond Angus Henderson available at Center Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Dwight Kealiher H.O.P.E. Health Outreach Prevention and Education (H.O.P.E.) HOPE interview Micki White Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project RAIN Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN) TOHR transcript Tulsa CARES Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Dwight Kealiher Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 25, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on July 25, 2004. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Dwight Kealiher was born in Tulsa and lived in Poteau, Sallisaw, Sulphur, Ada, and Checotah. He grew up in a Southern Baptist family, living a pretty typical small-town life. 6 After graduating from Checotah High School, he enrolled at Oklahoma State University (then, Oklahoma A&amp;M College) in 1955 as a business major. After college, he married a girl he knew from Checotah, staying married for twenty years and having three sons. During that time, however, Dwight also fully recognized that he was gay. Also after college, he spent six months, active duty, at Fort Leonard Wood in the National Guard. He then moved to Tulsa where he fulfilled the remaining five and a half years in the Reserves of his six-year commitment and got a job with a CPA firm. He took some accounting classes at University of Tulsa and later passed the CPA exam, and in 1989, he ventured out on his own, opening his own office in Tulsa. Over the years, he’s been active in local LGBTQ+ support groups such as Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (now Oklahomans for Equality), Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN), Tulsa Cares, and Health Outreach Prevention Education (HOPE), along with being a successful businessman. Subject The topic of the resource Dwight Kealiher Oral History Project Interview from July 25, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dwight Kealiher, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 available at Center Dwight Kealiher H.O.P.E. Health Outreach Prevention and Education (H.O.P.E.) HOPE interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU RAIN Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN) TOHR transcript TU Tulsa CARES Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Glenna Cooper Interview Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 31, 2005. <strong>Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> In the inteview, Glenna discusses the challenges facing the deaf community and their interactions with the LGBTQ+ community.<br /><br />No tape, done on computer. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 31, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Glenna Cooper Oral History Project Interview from January 31, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Glenna Cooper, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center deaf community Glenna Cooper interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript https://history.okeq.org/files/original/80a666c71fa7d00ebe6c35e6c3cd5029.mp4 a529e7f8f4fac75bb63c5db6e403adfb https://history.okeq.org/files/original/1fb8011913addc5505031ad0b07566bc.pdf a0af57e73d112460472ed6b6c2955e74 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Gordon George Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: February 3, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video February 8, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Gordon George Keywords Gordon George, LGBTQ history, Tulsa, community, coming out, AIDS crisis, activism, volunteer work, identity, equality Takeaways ● Gordon George shares his early life in Oswego, Kansas. ● He discusses the challenges of fitting in during school. ● Moving to Tulsa was a pivotal moment for Gordon's identity. ● He recalls his first experiences in the gay community. ● Gordon's involvement in LGBTQ activism began in the 80s. ● He faced challenges during the AIDS crisis and supported affected friends. ● Coming out to his family was a significant turning point. ● Gordon reflects on the changes in the LGBTQ community over the years. ● He emphasizes the importance of volunteering and community support. ● Gordon encourages future generations to appreciate and protect their rights. 2 �Summary In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 03:04 School Experiences and Identity 05:55 Moving to Tulsa and Discovering Community 09:05 Exploring Sexuality and Relationships 11:59 Involvement in the LGBTQ Community 14:59 Challenges and Triumphs in the 80s 18:08 Family Dynamics and Coming Out 20:59 AIDS Crisis and Community Support 24:03 Volunteering and Activism 27:05 Reflections on Change and Progress 30:00 Current Involvement and Future Outlook Gordon George Oral History Interview February 3, 2026 Toby Jenkins: This is February the 3rd on Tuesday in 2026, and we're here in the Nancy and Joe Rainbow Library at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. And today, we are interviewing Gordon George. And Gordon, can you tell us your name and your date of birth? Gordon George: Gordon George, 10-5-53. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. And where were you born? Gordon George: Oswego, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Oswego, Kansas. And about where is that located? Gordon George: Southeast Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Southeast Kansas, so not far from the Oklahoma line? Gordon George: Right. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And is that a little town, big town? Gordon George: Little. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They don't even have a hospital anymore. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do they still have a full high school and all of that? Gordon George: As far as I know, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. So you were born there and is that where your parents are from? Gordon George: They're from Southeast Kansas, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your dad's name and what is your mom's name? Gordon George: Freddy was my dad. My mother was Stella. Toby Jenkins: Stella? And are they still living? Gordon George: My dad's still kicking, 92. Toby Jenkins: 92 years old. Gordon George: And mother's been gone 23 years. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What was their careers? What did they do forGordon George: My dad was a teamster. Toby Jenkins: Oh. Gordon George: And mother was a homemaker and then she went into tax preparation. Did that for many years. Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings? Do you have siblings? Gordon George: I have one brother and a sister. I was the middle child. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Are they both still with us? Gordon George: No. My brother died twelve years ago, I think. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And my sister's still with us. She lives near Kansas City. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were you ever married? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: So you don't have any children that you know of? 4 �Gordon George: No. I know there's no children. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. All right. So your father's still living. Where did you go to school? Gordon George: Independence, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: And so did your family move to Independence, Kansas, or? Gordon George: Yes. We moved to Coffeyville when I was very young. And we moved to Independence when I was in the third grade. Toby Jenkins: And what was Independence like? Gordon George: Horrible. Toby Jenkins: The school you mean or just the city? Gordon George: It was a clicky town. Very clickish. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And I have no desire to go back other than to see my dad. Toby Jenkins: So no warm feelings, or? Gordon George: Oh, no, no, no. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you moved there in the third grade, was it difficult? New kid in that school. Did you not feel welcome, or? Gordon George: Oh, in grade school, it wasn't so bad. It's junior high and high school is when it got rough. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Because I didn't feel I fit in. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because you weren't from Independence and you all had moved there or because of your religion or your ethnicity or because youGordon George: We lived south of Main Street. We didn't live on the good side of town. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And people looked at that, where you live. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So I just- it's still that way. That town's still that way. Toby Jenkins: Still very clickish and segregated according to class. Gordon George: Yes. 5 �Toby Jenkins: And according to a person's- how much money they make. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because people's descriptions of small towns are that they're wonderful and welcoming and everybody's so close and looks after each other. But that wasn't your experience. Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Where did you go to high school? Gordon George: Independence. Toby Jenkins: And what year did you graduate? Gordon George: '71. Toby Jenkins: 1971. Okay. And did you go on to technical school? Were you in the military? Gordon George: I attended junior college. I didn't graduate. And I moved to Oklahoma in '79. Toby Jenkins: '79? Now, where did you go to junior college? Gordon George: Independence. Toby Jenkins: Independence. Oh, there's a junior school and college there? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And then I came- when I moved here, I went to Tulsa Junior College here for a couple courses. I did some- I got my real estate license with Tulsa Tech here in Tulsa, so. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been in '79 when you moved to Tulsa? Gordon George: Yes, I think so. Toby Jenkins: So how did you decide to move to Tulsa? Gordon George: To get out of that. Toby Jenkins: To get out of Independence? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Right. So you went to high school there. I mean did you have a job there in Independence for a while? Gordon George: I worked for Southwestern Bell. 6 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Is that what brought you to Tulsa? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: You were able to transfer? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, perfect. And what was that like in the 1970s? Working with- what did you do with Southwest Bell? Gordon George: I was actually- when I started, I started as a cord board operator. The Lily Tomlin. Toby Jenkins: Really? Gordon George: Yeah. Actually doing the cords into the switchboard. Toby Jenkins: So if I had called there in the 70s, you would have answered and you would have transferred my call or you would have made a long distance call or did you do information? What was yourGordon George: All of it. Toby Jenkins: All of it. Gordon George: Okay. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And I came to Oklahoma and went into information from there and then went into sales at the phone store. Toby Jenkins: How neat. Mall Bell. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's what brought you to Tulsa. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Now, since you were never married, what pronoun do you use? How do you identify your gender? Gordon George: I'm a gay male. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you identify as a gay man. Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember- we've talked about how you weren't happy in Independence and that you felt some isolation. Did you have an awareness that you were gay or that you had same-sex attraction? 7 �Gordon George: Oh yeah. Starting back in junior high school. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you began to have those feelings and you knew what that was. Okay. And did you have resources? I mean did you go to the library and look in a book or did you just kind of knew what that meant? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of awareness that there were other people in your school who were like you? Gordon George: One. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you ever feel like some of your unhappiness in junior high and high school had to do with- did anybody bully you or make you feel like you were different? Gordon George: Oh, I was bullied, yes. Particularly one gentleman or one kid. I don't know if- why he targeted me. But paybacks are hell. He died young. Toby Jenkins: Oh, mercy. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you don't really, you don't feel like you were bullied in high school because they perceived you were different, or? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you said that you were in junior high when you had these feelings. When you moved to Tulsa with Southwestern Bell, I still- I just think that's fascinating that you were- you used the Lily Tomlin one ringy dingy to the switchboard operator. Which- I'm just out of curiosity, I don't know that I ever called information and ever got a male voice. Did you ever hear anybody be surprised that it was a male sounding voice that answered the line or? Gordon George: Not so much because we had a female that sounded like a guy. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So there was two of us. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And of course my voice was a little high. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So. 8 �Toby Jenkins: Fascinating. So you had came to Tulsa. You were an adult, young adult. Did you realize you were gay? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And were ready to act upon it and? Gordon George: Yeah, first time in a gay bar when I came to Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: And do you remember what year that would have been? Gordon George: 80. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do you remember what the bar was, the club? Gordon George: Tim's Playroom. Toby Jenkins: Tim's Playroom. Okay. And how did you find out about Tim's Playroom? Gordon George: A co-worker invited me to go. Toby Jenkins: So you had a gay co-worker? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And he invited me to go with him, and we went to the bar. First time I was in a bar. Toby Jenkins: And what was your thoughts that first experience of being in a space where there were other people like you? And it was that nobody could look into it. The windows were covered overGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - and you could beGordon George: And it was a drag show that day, too. Toby Jenkins: Oh, was it? That's the first time you'd ever? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Do you remember your feelings that day, or? Gordon George: I was nervous as hell. Toby Jenkins: Really? Gordon George: Yeah. 'Cause I didn't know what to expect. I just really didn't know what going to a gay bar was gonna entail. I had no idea, so. Toby Jenkins: Now, had you had an intimate relationship prior to going to the gay bar? I mean, had you had an intimate9 �Gordon George: ... back in junior high. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Same one, over and over. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So that was when you explored your sexuality? Gordon George: He brought me out, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you knew from junior high on that you were attracted to your same sex? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So when you moved to Tulsa, you had this co-worker. Did you begin to explore other relationships with gay men? Gordon George: Yes, but not with my co-worker. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you went to Tim's playroom. Did that become kind of something you did on a regular basis? Went to gay bars andGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Most weekends. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Because at work, you couldn't be out, right? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: I mean, that was a ... . Gordon George: Well, it wasn't so much. I think people perceived that if you worked as an operator, that maybe you were gay, as a perception. But I wasn't out. I wasn't open about it. Toby Jenkins: What was the community like, that you found in the clubs and the bars? Gordon George: More accepting than I thought it would be. Toby Jenkins: So you're just a boy from KansasGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - Land in the big city. And what was Tulsa like in those days? Gordon George: Other than the bars, I didn't do much, 'cause of the hours that I worked with Bill. 'Cause there's times that I worked nights and late evenings. Go in at six o'clock and get off at midnight. Or go in at 06:00 and stay till 02:00, it just depends. 10 �Gordon George: So it kinda- and there was more one-on-one in those days with your customers online, or on the phone than there is today. Because they had to physically ask for addresses and stuff like that if we could even give it out. And more interaction with the publicToby Jenkins: Oh, yeah. Gordon George: - Than there is today. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you called information for everything. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: There were even songs about information. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you had went to Tim's playroom, and that's how you first connected with the gay community in Tulsa? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. It's the early 80s, late 70s in Tulsa. Did you go to any theater programs, any sports events? And just a part of the culture in Tulsa thatGordon George: Yeah. We'd do public events, like when they had ice skating at the downtown. We'd go to the Nutcracker during the holidays on ice. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Gordon George: Go do that kinda thing and let it out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tulsa had a downtown mall in those daysGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: - Built around, I think it's called the Galleria, wasn't it? Dennis Neill: Forum. Toby Jenkins: Forum, called the Forum. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Galleria was in Dallas. So you would do things like that, social events. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Now, when you went to this club, did you meet some other guys, and they kinda became your posse, or your clique of friends, or? Gordon George: No, it was more introduction through the co-worker. Because he had been out for many years. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And he introduced me to some of his friends. We'd become a circle of friends that would do things, mainly go to the bars. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you remember some of the other clubs that you might've went to? You keep saying the bars. Gordon George: Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Went to Zippers, okay. And what was Zippers? Gordon George: It was a high-energy bar. Toby Jenkins: Like a disco? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And of course, The Bamboo. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah, whichGordon George: That was a trash bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but it had been there forever. Yeah, it's one of the oldest. And it was in the north part of Tulsa. The Zippers was Midtown, like 31st and Yale. Gordon George: Yale. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So were there any- through the clubs, were you aware of any things like gay softball leagues, gay churches? Gordon George: Gay churches. I attended Metropolitan Community for a while. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And where was it located? Gordon George: North Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So I know that they also had a congregation in Jenks at one time, but you went to the north Tulsa location on Queen. It was on Queen. Gordon George: I couldn't tell you. Toby Jenkins: And- so you were connected to that. What about any of the gay softball programs, or what about pride picnics? Gordon George: I had- I- when they had it at Mohawk Park, I drove through it once. I thought, no, I can't do this. Toby Jenkins: And why was that? Gordon George: The crowd, and I just didn't feel comfortable. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Was it because of visibility, or just the large crowd? Gordon George: More the large crowd. Toby Jenkins: Okay, yeah. So that was the- that would've been the early 80s, and you were still with Southwest Bell. Were you staying in contact with your family? I mean, it's pretty common for gay men, lesbian women to move from small towns to bigger cities, where there can be some distance between their families in those days because they didn't wanna embarrass their families, or they wanted their life- their adult life to be private. Were you still in contact with your parents and independents? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: It didn't change. I mean, I didn't come out to my family until '85, '86. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what was that like? Gordon George: It was in a fit of rage. Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us a little bit about that. Gordon George: I had been to- I was living in Oklahoma City at the time. I went home for Christmas and my brother was there, and we didn't get along, and my mother kept harping at me, why don't you get along with your brother? Why don't you get along with your brother? You need to do this, do that. Gordon George: And that's the first time I told my mother to shut up. I'd had enough. Packed my bags and left. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So- and that's when- later that spring is when I came out to my family. Toby Jenkins: Okay, the whole family, or just your parents, or your mom, or? Gordon George: My mom and sister. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and how did they handle that? Gordon George: Better than I thought. Mother and I became good friends after that. When I moved to Oklahoma City and then moved back to Tulsa, she would go to the bars with me, and yeah, we would- and there were times we would- just the two of us would go out and have drinks. Sit and talk for hours. 'Cause she lived with me for a while too. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did she enjoy hanging around with your friends and going to theGordon George: Oh yeah, she was good. She was okay with it, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. 13 �Gordon George: When I was also involved in the Tulsa AIDS Task Force. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that's what's going on. Gordon George: And we would do barbecues and stuff. We had a big barbecue out at Inola and they supplied the beef for it. They had a calf slaughtered andToby Jenkins: Oh, a family in Inola did it, or? Gordon George: No, my family. Toby Jenkins: Oh, your parents? Oh wonderful. Gordon George: They provided the beef. Toby Jenkins: And so it was a fundraiser for? Gordon George: Tulsa AIDS Task Force. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That's the first time I've heard that name. Dennis Neill: That was a group that the United Way and Community Service Council had pulled together. All the conveners that met, and then eventually it's been off to Tulsa Cares. Does that sound right? Gordon George: I couldn't tell you. Toby Jenkins: But it's called the Tulsa AIDS Task Force? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. We were the fundraisers for them. Toby Jenkins: For the programs for people living with HIV AIDS? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and that would've been mid-80s? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And by then, apparently, your family was supporting you, your parents, especially if they were going to gay clubs with you and donating beef for a cookout. Do you remember the first time you heard about AIDS? Gordon George: I had seen it on the news, but I didn't know. I had a friend that asked me to get involved with the task force to help with the fundraising. Toby Jenkins: Did you know people in those early days, who had AIDS and were dying? Or do you rememberGordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: With the church, I was on the RAIN team. 14 �Toby Jenkins: At Metropolitan Community Church, they're a RAIN team? And what did a RAIN team do? Gordon George: We went to support families and patients with HIV. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And I've seen too many die, so I had to quit doing it. It was too rough. Toby Jenkins: When you say too many died, like there were five or six people that died, or was there dozens, or what was it like forGordon George: That I was involved with, it was probably four or five. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And then, I had a personal friend that became ill. Toby Jenkins: And so what was that like in those days? You found out your friends had AIDS. What were your thoughts? Tell us what that was like in those days. Gordon George: It was bad. It was tough, especially the friend that I- I was working fulltime. He needed help. And I quit my job. Spent the last couple months of his life helping him. So and that was really bad, really tough. Toby Jenkins: And just took care of him? Gordon George: He went to- well, part of the fundraising that I had helped with, we give, if I remember right, about $10,000 to- I can't think of the name of it, Catholic Charities. They're home forToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And he's actuallyToby Jenkins: St. Joseph's ... . Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That was a hospice care center. Gordon George: Right. And that's where he was at, when he died. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So- and I was- it made me feel good that I would help raise the money to help support their organization, and they helped him. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So yeah, it was tough. And he was saying that, why he was- talking about why he was on earth. And I said, "Part of it was because you could be my friend." And that was tough. And I was with him when he took his last breath. So his mother and I were with him. 15 �Toby Jenkins: So in those days, people were finding- they would find out they were ill. I mean, would they go to the doctor because they were feeling bad, or because they were being cautious? Gordon George: They'd go find out that they were ill. And when you found out you had HIV AIDS, there wasn't any kind of treatment plan that was keeping you alive longer in those early days. So people were gone pretty quick. Toby Jenkins: Or did people live with it for a while? Do you remember? Gordon George: Both. Toby Jenkins: Both? So some people lasted longer thanGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And what was the general attitude of the community in those days, like in the gay bars, did people act different with their behavior? Did they shun or isolate people once they found out they were sick, or were people being cautious or being careful not to spread it? Gordon George: They weren't as careful as they should've beenToby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: - back then. 'Cause it really hadn't hit home so much here in Oklahoma like it was on major metropolitan areas. So- but once it really got a hold here, people were thinking, oh, yeah, we need to be more careful and actually more responsive as far as fundraising, so…I met a lot of people during the fundraising, people that cared. Toby Jenkins: People outside the gay community, or justGordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The Perigos were one of them [Jerry and Peggy Perigo]. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah. Perigo family? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Who [Jerry Perigo] was the judge here in town. So this would have all been during the 80s, right? Gordon George: Right. 16 �Toby Jenkins: So you were involved with the Tulsa AIDS Task Force, and a part of RAIN, which was a care team associated with your church. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That provided care for people living with HIV AIDS. When did you begin to- did you start- were you still working at Southwest Bell? You said you quit your job to take care of your friend. Gordon George: Oh, no. I had left Southwestern Bell before that. I left Southwestern Bell in '85. Toby Jenkins: Okay. When did you- I know you're doing the work with the AIDS Task Force, what about relationships? Did you have a partner during those days? Did you haveGordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you just kinda hung out with the group? Gordon George: Right. Yeah. I didn't- yeah. It was not a pleasant time after I left Bell, and 'cause I did an odd job kinda things and wound up declaring bankruptcy and had to start all over. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So in the fundraising part, did you ever get involved with the quilts, the NAMES project, the AIDS quilts? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you were aware thatGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. I had seen it, but I wasn't involved in any of the organization part of it. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever participate in the annual follies that were big fundraisers for the HIV AIDS causes? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Big performance shows. Okay. When did you begin to get involved with TOHR? Did I ask if you ever went to any of the pride picnics, or the pride parades? Did you ever get involved with any of that? Gordon George: No. I didn't get involved until, what was it, '91, '92, maybe. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And it was when I was attending your church organization. That's when I got involved. 17 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that would've been later. That would have been about 1999 something. Gordon George: Was it that late? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. AndGordon George: Oh, okay. '99. Toby Jenkins: You're talking aboutGordon George: Yeah, '99. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you're talking about the Ekklesia group? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Which is a group for recovering evangelicals and who- wasn't really a church. It was kind of a Christian support group. And it would meet at the center, the TOHR center, which was in Highland Park. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: So that's where you've began to get involved and started volunteering with the organization. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do you… I know that at one year, you received 'Volunteer of the year' from TOHR- probably Oklahomans for Equality by then. And why were you given that award? Do you remember? Gordon George: For the help of working here on the building. Toby Jenkins: Yep. Gordon George: And doing…I got even the very first Thanksgiving dinner we had here I helped with. I wasn't in charge of it at that time, but I helped with it. So- and Kristi Freeman I think was ... Toby Jenkins: Kristi Freeman? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Who was on the board. Gordon George: Yeah, I helped her and then one year when Nancy McDonald helped with it andToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And then after that's when I actually started conducting it all. 18 �Toby Jenkins: So I know that you were very involved with the organization when they bought the building. And you're talking about, for a year we spent renovating. And Christy Frisbee, Sue Welch and some of those folks led some of the- we did it ourselves. Our gay boys were designers and our girls were good with power tools. So we were a perfect match and we did it ourselves, didn't we? You have to. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And so you spent some time down hereGordon George: Hanging sheet rock and that kinda stuff, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, ripping up carpet and pushing up old tile. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And we were proud to have it, weren't we? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you had been in Tulsa for a while. So you'd kind of saw an evolution where we had had smaller centers, that were kinda tucked into hidden places. All of a sudden we were right downtown. Yeah. I know that you also were very involved every time we had the big dances and the big events. Toby Jenkins: You always were in charge of the kitchen and the refreshments and for the fall-a-law ball. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And the Wild Hearts ball and volunteered at the Equality Gala. So you were very helpful and a very good organizer, especially when it came to setting things up and food service. So you talked about- you got involved with the Thanksgiving dinner. Can you kinda remember some details why we did that, why we had it? Gordon George: It was for people that didn't have families to go to. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and why would they not have had families to go to? Gordon George: A lot of their families disowned them. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: And I was fortunate enough, my family didn't disown me. Toby Jenkins: Right. And it was on- what day did we do it? Gordon George: Usually Thanksgiving Day. Toby Jenkins: And did you have to cook all the food or where did the food come from? Gordon George: A lot of the food was donated, but there was a couple times that I cooked the turkeys. 19 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Right. Gordon George: And I was- back on those days I thought I wouldn't do it today. Toby Jenkins: And so now, for anybody who's familiar with the Equality Center today, we have a commercial kitchen. But in those days ... Gordon George: Oh, no. Toby Jenkins: - we had the kitchen that we put together ourselves. Gordon George: Tiny hole-in-the-wall kitchen. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you'd have to serve hundreds of people ... . Okay. Gordon George: I think the most we served was 225. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so we talked about this. So we worked with the faith communities that were inclusive and welcoming. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And they kinda sponsored and would provide all the food. So it was like a massive potluck dinner and you had to coordinate all that. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And that was all served on Thanksgiving Day. But the food started coming in when? Gordon George: The day before, or ... Toby Jenkins: A couple of days. Yeah. Gordon George: Depends on the organization. Toby Jenkins: And you all would be back there preparing turkeys and hams and ... Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So- and we not only served people on Thanksgiving Day, we provided to-go meals for people who ... Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: You could call down here and we'd deliver those to you. About how many faith communities were involved, do you remember? Gordon George: Oh, eight, ten maybe. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Gordon George: Somewhere around there. I don't remember for sure. 20 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember the year of Muslims for Mercy or the- they were compassionate Muslims. They provided the turkey and it was seasoned with the Middle Eastern flavor. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Okay, so ... Gordon George: That's when I quit cooking turkeys after that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. But- so we did that, and it was called 'Come Home for the Holidays'. And we'd have a huge turnout. Transgender people who were not allowed to go home and present to their family as they identified. Gay couples who- they might be able to go home but they couldn't bring their boyfriend or their girlfriend home. And then it got to where entire families just came out to show support. And about how many people would help you work on that event. Gordon George: Oh, 15 maybe or 20, depends. Toby Jenkins: And then on Thanksgiving morning, how many people to get it all ready to go? Gordon George: Usually maybe 8 to 10. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Including my family. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, now tell us about how you got your family, talked into helping with this. Gordon George: I don't remember other than, I was involved with it and I wasn't going to their place. And at that point, my mother had died. So it was- can't go home. Home was changed. So we- I volunteered to keep- from thinking about Thanksgiving at home is no longerToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And so they would come here. My dad and my sister and brother-inlaw and my nieces and nephews andToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: They would all come. At one point, all came involved. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, your brother and his wife. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And their children, and yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. My brother, when he was alive, he was here when he could. And they lived in Collinsville. So it wasn't- it was easier for them to come and help. 21 �Toby Jenkins: But your sister was coming from where? Gordon George: Near Kansas City. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And it became a thing for over a decade. Gordon George: Yeah. Until COVID. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: COVID put an end to it. Toby Jenkins: So I know you volunteered with the Equality Gala. Did you volunteer at Pride too? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. I helped in the treasury departments. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Counted tickets and counted tickets. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. And that you were always available to help for just so many things that we were doing. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: I know today you're pretty involved in the Oklahomans for Equality's program for senior adults. Do you remember when you began to get involved with that? Originally, I think we called it SAGE butGordon George: I don't remember. It was when we were a smaller group and it was before the remodeling of the event center and the kitchen. It was before that that I was involved with SAGE when we met in the great hall. Toby Jenkins: So about 13, 14 years ago. Gordon George: I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Too many years ago to think about. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your reason for being involved with that? Gordon George: It was an outreach for being around gay people that were my age. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And much like the work you did with RAIN team and AIDS over the years, we've lost a lot of people who were involved in that program. Many, many, many people. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tell us some of the things that SAGE would do. Like, did we go see people, check on people? 22 �Gordon George: I wasn't involved in a lot of that. I would just come during the day 'cause of the hours that I worked in the company that I was working for. I worked a lot of nights. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So I didn't get to attend SAGE as much as I do now. Toby Jenkins: So I know- I wanna bring this up. I know you worked for companies and you understood they had corporate support for non-profits and you were able to get them to support- work here at the Equality Center. Gordon George: Right, they made a donation to us. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Was it Thanksgiving they would sponsor or was it the SAGE program ... Gordon George: No, it was ... - now that you mention it, I don't remember. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: I know they- it was during- it was closer to the holidays, yeah, so. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yep. So you understood the value of getting corporate support. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And they were willing to do it, weren't they, that company? Gordon George: Right. And I think that was- it happened a lot, when they had to do some diversity training because of the way I was treated at work. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: Particularly one, there are two people out there that were hateful. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And so, they had diversity training and I think that was what brought it out, that they give us money. Or even some of the people who were not happy, that they give the money to us, here. But they had to get over it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's interesting because presently in 2026, companies, anybody who does any kind of diversity, inclusion or equity or equality efforts, DEI as we call it, that's supposed, now companies are afraid to do that. And of course the administration in the White House has labeled that as woke and bad, and universities, and public institutions, and publicly funded institutions. And we've seen corporations step back from that for fear of retribution. But you knew why diversity training was important personally, because you had experienced discrimination in the workplace? Gordon George: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: And then your company23 �Gordon George: Put a stop to it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And said, we need to do more to make sure all of our LGBT employees feel valued. Gordon George: Yeah. And I wasn't the only one at that point. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: There was others that came out. And it wasn't just the level that I was at as far as an employee, there was even higher up. I mean one of the chemists came out. And so, it wasn't just a lowly production worker, so. And there were several. Toby Jenkins: Now just out of curiosity, you've told us your age. You had saw things change, hadn't you, in Oklahoma from when you first got to Tulsa? I know we've talked a lot about your time in Tulsa, so if I've corrected this, you've been here about 45 years in the Tulsa area. I think maybe there were some times you moved away and came back, is-you saw a lot of changes, especially for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and all the different letters of the acronym that we use for the gay community. There's been a lot of changes. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Right. Do you feel like, from the early days, where your life was pretty private work and gay bars were the dark, private places where we hid away from the general community, we couldn't walk down the street holding hands, we did have pride parades. Do you feel like Tulsa changed and became better? Gordon George: Yes, it improved. It was slow, but it kept improving to the point where it was more comfortable to be out, and OkEq was a big part of that for me to be comfortable on being out. The community was getting more involved. The city itself was becoming more involved. Toby Jenkins: The proclamations of Gay Day in the city and the mayor's backing on some things. Like naming the street Pride Street. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So- and even to the point, where they named one of the streets of a deceased police officer that was a lesbian. Toby Jenkins: Jennifer Mansell. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Absolutely. Who was on the Tulsa Police Department and had named a street. That was an incredible day. I remember that. That was our first openly gay person to be her and her wife, who was a Wagner County treasurer, so… 24 �Gordon George: Yeah. And so it really improved a lot in those years until who got in the White House and things. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And who in the White House? Gordon George: Trump. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: Donald J. Trump. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So it's safe to say that whoever we put in the White House, that impacts all of us. Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: It changes our world. Gordon George: Especially when they're negative. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So you saw things improve, and do you think it was because of the visibility? I know Oklahomans for Equality was doing lots of advocacy work, but do you feel like some of it might have been because of the visibility of LGBTQ people, then being more visible and open and out at work and faith communities changing their positions? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: I mean, when you came to Tulsa, MCC was the only church that had an official mission and dedicated to the LGBT community. There were congregations like 'All Souls' and some other churches that may have been supportive of the community, but even they had not come out with an official policy. You saw that all change where faith communities helped support the Thanksgiving meals and also were a part of the pride parades and were sponsors of the Equality Gala, so. Gordon George: And it continued to grow. The pride parades just kept growing and growing, and more of the community of Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Corporations and companies proud to be a part of it. Yeah. So I haven't asked this to anybody else, and I just thought I was gonna- I'm gonna ask this to somebody who's kinda saw things change. Why do you think we have so few gay bars? Because when you first came to Tulsa, there were lots of gay bars. Gordon George: There was. Toby Jenkins: And we now just have just a few left. I think at the time of this interview, I only know of two, Majestic and Eagle, and then I guess Yellow Brick Road probably identifies this. But why do you think things have changed there? 25 �Gordon George: I don't know. I wonder that myself. Why it's- especially as an older adult there's not a whole lot of places that I would go that I would feel comfortable, as a gay bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The Eagle, but I'm not so much into leather and- I'm not so much into going to the bars now, anyway. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So. Toby Jenkins: Do you think social media and used to, if you wanted a date, you had to go find 'em, right? Gordon George: Uh-huh. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And the places you found them was at the clubs. And you might meet people at work, but you were afraid to tell somebody at work for fear you're barking up the wrong tree. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like the social media, the dating websites, the mobile apps, the hookup apps. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like that has changed the way we connect and meet people? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, it was easier to get online and you still had to wonder, okay, is it safe to meet this person or not? Are they gonna beat the hell out of me when I get there? That kinda thing. But social media made a big difference. I don't know if it's so much that- well, I think it's still even more now why the attendance to gay bars is down. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: It's because of social media, people doing- hooking up online. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you have lived long enough to see things change. You've seen things improve. But you've also saw us having to refight the fightGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: - for stuff that we fought for. Gordon George: That's ongoing now. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. 26 �Gordon George: All the time, trying to protect the privileges and the rights that we got that they keep trying to roll back. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: And it's an ongoing battle. Toby Jenkins: Now, as you live your life, you're retired. And I know that you do a lot of volunteer work. So let's talk a little bit about that. And while we talk about that, I wanna know what your experience is. So I notice, let's start with you're branded today. And what is that? Gordon George: It's the ambassador program at the airport. Toby Jenkins: Tulsa International Airport. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And they are a great organization to volunteer for. And they take care of us quite well. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They feed us multiple times a year. They're feeding us next month. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The luncheon. Toby Jenkins: So they do a lot of volunteer appreciation? Gordon George: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And so today, that we're doing, this is a Tuesday. Did you volunteer today at the airport? Gordon George: Yes, 06:00 AM. Toby Jenkins: Had to be there at 06:00 AM? Gordon George: To 09:00, three hour shifts. Toby Jenkins: And so what do you do? Park planes? Do you scrub planes? What do you do? Gordon George: Well, basically, we just direct traffic for passengers. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. Gordon George: Where's the nearest restroom? How do I get through TSA? Where do I take my luggage? That kinda thing. 27 �Toby Jenkins: So you're at an information booth, or? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, alright. Gordon George: Or, as I'm what they call a roamer, which allows me to go in. I can go out on either concourse, A and B, and assist people out there, or assist people getting through TSA. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what is that experience like? Do you enjoy it? Gordon George: I love it. Toby Jenkins: Do you? Gordon George: It's a great place to people watch. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: A lot of eye candy. Toby Jenkins: A lot of hot, attractive men, okay. Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, now we know why you do it. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you do that how many times a week? Gordon George: I do twice a week, every other week. And then, sometimes on the fifth week of the month, I'll do extra. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, like holiday time, during holiday? Gordon George: I have done holiday extra. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Do they know you're gay? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do they treat you differently? Or do theyGordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: So do any of you other volunteers say, "Hey, Gordon, do you see that attractive man? Look at that." Gordon George: Oh, the straight women that we talk about. 28 �Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. Everybody's looking, right? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. How wonderful. And I wanna thank you, on behalf of our community, for being there at the airport. I know that can't be real easy. Okay, so you do that. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you volunteer at the Tulsa International Airport in the ambassador program. What else do you volunteer with? Gordon George: I help distribute Meals on Wheels. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: I work in the distribution center to help pack the packages that drivers take. I help with that. And then, I also do driving. Toby Jenkins: So you have to drive? Gordon George: The delivery, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you enjoy that? Gordon George: That's one day a week. Most of the time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? And you have to do that regardless of the weather, right? Gordon George: No, they shut us down. The recent weather that we've had? Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They shut us down. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but in the middle of a hot summerGordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: - or pouring down rain, you'll still have to do it. Gordon George: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And would you encourage people to be a part of that program? Do they need more volunteers? Gordon George: They always need volunteers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What else do you volunteer with? Gordon George: I volunteer with the SAGE group here. Of course, I do that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, with the seniors program here. Gordon George: Yeah. And I usher at the PAC in Broken Arrow. 29 �Toby Jenkins: And that's a volunteer position? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And what do you do there? Gordon George: Just as an usher. Toby Jenkins: Okay, andGordon George: Directing people to their seats. Toby Jenkins: - you don't get paid? You're just doing it? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Now, what would be the perks of that? Gordon George: You get to see the shows. Toby Jenkins: So where else is it you volunteer at? We were talking about the Broken Arrow PAC. Gordon George: Oh, so…I just lost my thought. Toby Jenkins: Well, let's talk a little bit about that cause I think we got cut off a little. So you're a volunteer over there. What are the perks about volunteering as an usher at the Broken Arrow Performing Arts Center? Gordon George: Well, I got to see Lily Tomlin. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And recently was Sandy Patty. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And other productions. Toby Jenkins: Have you ever been there when KristenChenoweth was there? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Our only- our little hero we had. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So that's- would you encourage people to volunteer as ushers at the Performing Arts Center? Gordon George: Right, and they take very little of your time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: I mean it's not even once a month. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: 'Cause they have quite a few volunteers, 'cause they will take volunteers any time. Toby Jenkins: Okay. You volunteer still here at the Equality Center. Anything else you volunteer at? Gordon George: Life Senior Services. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what do you do with them? Gordon George: I mainly just help at their major fundraisers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: I help when they do those. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And tell us a little bit, what is Life Senior Services? Gordon George: It supports adult seniors, and they do so much in the community. They provide housing, they provide daycare for seniors. They don't call it daycare, it's something else. Toby Jenkins: Drop-in? Gordon George: Yeah, where people that can go- they have all kinds of classes. They haveToby Jenkins: Fitness center. Gordon George: Dancing, yeah, all the- bunch of stuff that they do. Toby Jenkins: They help you with your taxes. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Help you navigate Medicare and finding the right insurance. Gordon George: Right. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So do you enjoy volunteering with Life Senior Services? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Do they know you're gay? Gordon George: Well, I would think so. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you always feel welcome there? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. 31 �Gordon George: Not a problem. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you- I'll say this as a PSA. What you're doing by volunteering and serving our community, the whole community, that does more to help us make sure that we create an inclusive community for LGBTQ people because we're visible and we're helping out where it's needed, instead of silo-ing ourself and isolating ourself. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That's my PSA. Do you find that to be true? Gordon George: Yes, and we have several with the senior group here that also are ambassadors. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That do the volunteer programs? Gordon George: Mm-hmm, that do this. Toby Jenkins: Oh, cool, very cool. So let's think about, an archeologist uncovers these archives in a 100 years and he's gonna look at your interview and what message do you want to give to those who come after us. Or maybe young people today who just are not sure how all this came to be. They just think it's always been like this. What would be your message to the future and to people? Young people today about what would you message would you give them? Gordon George: They have privileges that older people have worked for to appreciate those privileges and to work on keeping those privileges and to help support the LGBTQ community and get involved, stay involved. And keep working, 'cause it's never- it's gonna be an uphill battle no matter how long it's gonna be. 'Cause you're always gonna have people that don't like our community and it's gonna be an uphill, ongoing battle. Toby Jenkins: Alright. Gordon George: And keep doing it. Keep the battle going. Toby Jenkins: Anything else? Gordon George: No, I don't think so. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality and Toby Jenkins, we've been present for this interview. We conclude our interview with Gordon George, affectionately known as GG around Oklahomans for Equality. Toby Jenkins: Thank you for tuning in for this broadcast. Gordon George: I appreciate it. Thank you. 32 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Gordon George Interview Description An account of the resource In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations. Subject The topic of the resource Gordon George Oral History Project from February 3, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gordon George, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 3, 2026 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Gordon George HIV/AIDs interview OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Jack Waggoner Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 3, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on December 3, 2005. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Born in Western Kansas in 1936, Jack graduated from Pawnee Rock High School and then joined the Navy in 1954. He attended University of Kansas and began his professional career in Kansas City, Missouri and became involved in the gay community. Upon moving to Tulsa, he became an interstate truck driver. In the interview, he discusses the various gay bars, his eleven year relationship with a bartender and other activities and interactions in the Tulsa gay community. Subject The topic of the resource Jack Waggoner Oral History Project Interview from December 3, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jack Waggoner, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2003 available at Center bar life gay bar Gay Bars interview Jack Waggoner Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript University of Kansas video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/18ab089ee94d63ffd9e7d04ee1d65c33.mp4 7d9e214b99d8ee9a56603bf83ef4c16e https://history.okeq.org/files/original/bd38c834e284b300aec3bb350b6559a0.pdf c65882cf093a1122f482853b3eeea6c7 PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Janet Gearin Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte February 22, 2004 OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Edmon Low Library ● Oklahoma State University ©2004 �OKEQ Oral History Project Interview History Interviewer: Laura Belmonte Transcriber: Janet Gearin Editors: Anika Benthem The recording and transcript of this interview were processed at the Oklahoma State University Library in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Project Detail The OKEQ Oral History Project is a series of interviews documenting the rich contributions of LGBTQ community members in the state of Oklahoma, with a particular emphasis on Tulsa and the surrounding area. These interviews were conducted by members of Oklahomans for Equality, formerly Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Legal Status Scholarly use of the recordings and transcripts of the interview with Janet Gearin is unrestricted. The interview agreement was signed on February 22, 2004. 2 �OKEQ Oral History Project Janet Gearin Oral History Interview [Editor note – Janet provided an update in March 2026 which is at the end of this transcript in an Addendum.] Interviewed by Laura Belmonte February 22, 2004 Tulsa, Oklahoma Belmonte It is Sunday, February 22, 2004, and I am Laura Belmonte with Jennifer Davis, and today we are interviewing Janet Gearin. Janet, will you just begin with some basic, biographical information? Gearin You want my age and all of that? (Laughs) Belmonte Your birthday, occupation, you know, that sort of stuff. Gearin Now, I just turned February 3. I was born in 1947, so I’m fifty-seven years old. I’m from Oklahoma, born in Vinita. Didn’t live there very long. Folks lived mostly in Duncan, and I actually finished high school in Lindsay, Oklahoma, which is south of Oklahoma City. When I finished high school, I decided that I wanted to go to college, did so, and went to the University of—Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts, I should say. It had changed—it was OCW, which was Oklahoma College for Women, but the year before I went, they actually changed it to a co-ed school, so that was really quite an experience to be there at a university that had been a women’s college for fifty-some-odd years. I had a really good time there. I was a biology major, minored in chemistry, and I was pre-med at that time. When it got time for me to go and interview at the University of Oklahoma for med school, I was declined admission, primarily because I was a woman, but at that time, I didn’t really want to take issue with it. I kind of started to get cold feet anyway, so I—after I finished my degree there, I went ahead and worked for a year at Saint Francis. I worked in labor and delivery and decided that that was my life. I really like labor and delivery and thought seriously that I would be like a midwife. I stayed there for a little over a year. I applied to nursing school and was accepted into the University of Colorado and was there for three years getting a bachelor’s of science and nursing. However, along the way, while I 3 �was in that process of three years, I realized that there was very little work and employment for midwives. Unless you lived in Kentucky or parts of Tennessee, you really couldn’t practice that. I made a course change as I was in nursing school and decided that I really psychiatry. From that point on, I became invested in pursuing a career in psychiatric nursing. While there, I was talked to by my professor, and she suggested that I consider going to get my master’s degree and becoming what they were calling a clinical specialist. It was a brand new role, been out for a couple of years. I looked at the various universities across the country, and basically, there were ten that offered that degree: places like Rutgers, Boston University, Case Western University, University of Colorado, University of California, San Francisco, University of Washington—really great places. Had no way of being able to travel and seeing where I wanted to go, so just kind of talking with various professors and ruling out places because they only accepted men, which was really (Laughs)—I had no idea that I would get accepted to all of them, and I felt that surely if I found one that would take me, that would answer that question. I ended up getting accepted to all ten universities, and then I had to make a choice. I decided that I wanted to go west and went to the University of California, San Francisco and lived there for two years while I worked on my master’s degree. Then decided at that point in time that I really needed to come home. My parents were aging; I had a grandmother that was in her eighties, and I felt like I really needed to come back to Oklahoma. I’d always said that if I got my degree, I would come back to Oklahoma and try and help upgrade nursing here because it was really quite antiquated compared to how progressive it was on each coast. Did come back. The only way I could come back was by working with the Department of Veterans Affairs because no one else was going to pay me the salary that I felt like I at least needed and wanted, so I did come back, work with the VA in Muskogee. Started there March of ’75, and I’ve been with the VA ever since then. Opened a brand new mental health clinic in Muskogee. I was the first person they hired for that clinic, and then, when we moved up to Tulsa in ’79, I opened the clinic there, helped get that set up. Then three years ago, we relocated here in Tulsa to 41st and Mingo and opened that one. Actually have now been in three different mental health clinics, but all with the VA. I now have twenty-nine years of experience there and work with veterans within mental health, and love my work. I truly do. I have still great energy and a gift for my work and love it, dearly love it. That’s kind of where I’ve been. The other parts of my life, in terms of more personal, is I’m the youngest of six children, and it was yours, mine, and our—I’m the “our” child. I have, surviving, I have two older brothers and one older sister; the other two are deceased. There’s a difference of twenty-one years between me and my 4 �oldest sister, and the next youngest is eleven years older than I am. For the most part, I was really kind of an alone child who grew up pretty much kind of on my own, latchkey kid. My father was a grocery man and did that until he retired because of health reasons. Parents are both deceased. When I was in college in Chickasha, realized that I probably was not quite like everybody else in terms of my sexual orientation, and that’s really kind of when I began to explore some of that. Belmonte Now, have you classified yourself as homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual for most of your adult life? Gearin Homosexual. My family has pretty much known about that for the last thirty years. Didn’t really while I was out and away and going to school. It really was never talked about, you know, any of that. My one, big, huge regret is that my mother died before we really had a chance to talk about that because I was really very young. I was just into my thirties when she died and was in a very early relationship, my first real relationship, and just didn’t really get a chance to talk about that, and I regret that. I really wish that I had. I’ve had talks with brothers and sisters and my father, had a good talk with him about it. You know, that’s kind of how that got involved. When I started work here in Tulsa, I never really belonged to any kind of organization. I know that part of your interest, I guess, still is TOHR [Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights], but— Belmonte Not specifically, the whole community. Gearin Okay. When I moved here, I was in a relationship, and it was another nurse that was with the VA, and she had to medically retire because she was injured on the job. Altogether, we were in a twenty-five year relationship. I have a long history here in Tulsa. I’ve met lots of—I don’t even know how many hundreds of people I’ve met over the years. I feel that I’ve had a very rich life, and it’s been very different from my professional life, though, because I’m not exactly out, as you would say, in terms of my work, but I know that those folks have known me all these years. A majority of them do know, and I do have a couple of really good friends at work that do know. When I was—my relationship ended a few years ago, it was very difficult for me, and I confided in the psychiatrist that I work with here. She already knew pretty much anyway, so without her help and my other friends’ help, I really would have had a difficult time. Belmonte How old were you when you had your first homosexual experience? Gearin Let’s see, I think I was fifteen, if I remember…I believe I was fifteen! And it was in the back of a car! (Laughter) That’s not even the best part. The best part is that it was moving; it was being driven by the girl’s mother. We were 5 �on our way to California. I was just about to panic; I’ll never forget that. That was probably the most priceless experience I had in my life. Belmonte Had you suspected there was something different? When do you recall thinking that for the first time? Gearin Actually, it was because of her. When I was in high school—this will really—well, I’ve already told you how old I am. I was in band. I was a very active band student, a very good musician. Belmonte What years did you go to high school? Gearin This would have been, let’s see, I was in ninth grade, so this would have been freshman in high school. It would’ve ben ’61? There were a group of us girls that we’d hang out. The other girls were a year older than I, and so they would have been sophomores in high school. It was so funny. We really were close; we were really tight knit. All of the sudden I realized—I went to class one day, went to band; band was first thing in the morning, and it was like, “Okay, we’re not talking to Vivienne.” “We’re not? Why?” “She’s queer.” I thought, well—my definition was queer was “odd.” I had no other definition for queer. I’m thinking, “Well, what’s that got to do with not talking to her?” Had not sexualized this at all. Had not a clue. I was just so naïve. We go then to another class, and I’m sitting there, and I’m talking to one of the students before the class starts, and I said, “I don’t really understand what the heck you’re talking about. What’s so strange about Vivienne?” She said, “Janet, that’s not queer. Don’t you know what queer is?” I said, “Yes. It’s strange, odd.” I’m trying to remember what else it was in terms of Webster’s Dictionary. She said, “Janet, no. She’s a lesbian; she’s gay.” Or homosexual, I’m sorry, I don’t even think gay was being used then. I said, “Oh.” I still wasn’t even sure, and I thought, “Huh, how do you know that?” That was my question, was “How do you know that?” Belmonte What did she say? Gearin She said, “Well, one of the girls, Martha told us.” “Well, how does Martha know?” It was like—I was no big deal, so what’s the difference? As it was, the ostracization that she suffered, it was just terrible. I’ve never been able to understand how people discriminate. To me, you care for somebody because of who they are, the person that they are. This was a girl that we had all been friends for many years. We had grown up together, we were in band together, we ran around together, we did things together. Now, they’re saying that because she was queer and she was a homosexual, that now we could no longer have a relationship with her. I probably endured that for, I’d say, maybe a month. I just couldn’t do it anymore. It was like, I would 6 �watch her. She would walk by herself to class. Nobody walked with her, nobody talked with her. Boys made fun of her. Girls would—I mean, it was just awful, it was just absolutely awful. I literally could not tolerate it, and so I just decided one day, I’m walking with her. I went up and walked with her to class, I don’t care. You know, if they don’t like me, that’s it. If I’m like her, then I guess I’m like her. It was at that point in time that I really became very interested in humanity and how we treat each other for being different and not really understanding why we were treating people that differently and hating her and calling her names. I realized that there’s sometimes that you take a risk. I lost my naivete. I realize that there’s times where you take a risk for disclosure of some of this information. I really found her to be extremely brave. I don’t know how she did it because there was a lot of abuse that she endured. I never saw her cry, I never saw her break down, I never saw her complain. It was a really troubling time, but yet it was also a really good time. I became her friend. We had been friends, but it was like I just wasn’t going to let my relationship with her go because other people wouldn’t associate with her. Slowly but surely, and I don’t know that I ever got much in terms of repercussions because after all this time, I don’t really remember anybody saying anything negative to me or distancing themselves the way they did, but it was kind of like people followed suit as I started talking to her again and interacting with her again, other people, I guess, decided that it was okay. I think that maybe many of them felt badly because this was a small town, a small school. There were like sixty of us in my class and maybe about that many in the class ahead of me, so we’re really talking about a pretty small school. A lot of that started to stop and I don’t remember people calling her names or anything else like that after that. It was—but this was the young girl that—she kind of became infatuated with me, and I guess I could understand that, and I did become infatuated with her; she was really my first love. I had no idea until we were in the backseat of that car going to California, and she kissed me. It was like, “Oh.” (Laughs) “I don’t think we should be doing this,” because it was not just a kiss on the cheek, it was like—oh my word. Then I didn’t know what to do because I knew I shouldn’t say anything because her mother was driving. I’m all the sudden thinking, “Oh my god, is she able to see in the rearview mirror?” You know, all these are going through your mind. It’s like, “Stop it, stop it. Don’t do that to me. Stop it. Help. No, no, don’t do this.” Then I was like, “Oh no, you know, this is just not supposed to be happening.” It was really pretty traumatic for me, but at the same time, I think I really was kind of intrigued by it as well. That was the first time. Belmonte Did you wind up having a relationship with Vivienne? 7 �Gearin To some degree, yes. You’re in high school and you’re doing different things, and she was a year older, so this was the summer before her junior year and my sophomore year. We really only had two more years together. We really were good companions. She was a latchkey kid; I was a latchkey kid. We lived close in terms of proximity, and it was kind of a—it was really just a very good friendship. It never really did progress the way it probably would have if I had really known what was going on and understood things. I didn’t push for that much, and she didn’t either. When she went to college—she went to a small college, went to the Oklahoma College for Women—I followed her. I basically did follow her. Since the last—I didn’t want to go to a big university. I knew that I really was not prepared to go to a big university; I had always thought I would go to the University of Oklahoma. I had been—had music scholarships and everything, but just couldn’t quite cut that, so I made the choice to go to a small school, which was just about thirty-five miles from where I lived. They had changed that over that year, and it still was predominantly women, you know, young girls, young women that were at the university there, and it was just a fun—I had a marvelous time for those four years there, just had a marvelous time. Belmonte You know, many women’s colleges have had very active lesbian networks, social lives, you know, even through the twentieth century and late nineteenth century. How would you describe the climate of your school on that? Gearin It was extremely closeted, let me tell you. I didn’t really appreciate the dangers involved. Vivienne, my friend, was really—I think she was always kind of cut out to be the one that was going to be taking that step and be on the edge. She wanted the freedom; she wanted to be who she was and to do what she wanted to do. She ended up being expelled my freshman year for homosexuality, and it was like—I think it was pretty late into my second semester. Belmonte This would have been around, what, 1966? Gearin This was ’66, no ’65. No, I’m sorry. It was ’66, spring of ’66. It was really awful. It was an awful, awful time for me. I can remember, you know, having—we were in a social club. They didn’t have a sorority on this campus, but they had social clubs for women, and we belonged to the same social club. Several of the members were real upset that she was just flaunting her sexuality and had been caught several times in the dorm by the dorm mother and stuff like this, and was just making no secret of it. It was causing a lot of uncomfortableness. They had tried talking with her and everything else and knew that she and I had been friends and said, “Janet, please talk with her.” I did, and she said, “Hey, I’m in love. I don’t care.” I said, “But you have to care. You know, this is—you know, you’re also looking at your career, your life, you know. They’re saying that you may get 8 �kicked out.” She said, “I don’t believe that.” It’s against the wall, or something like this, I can’t even remember. It’s been so many years ago. At any rate, she did get caught and got turned in. I remember she was coming out of the auditorium from the business offices with her mother and father, and I just absolutely was devastated because she was gone. You know, she was gone. The next thing I knew—it was a couple of days later— I get called into the Dean of Women’s office and that was an even bigger eye-opener because at that point in time, I’m told that I’ve implicated that I’m one of the homosexuals on campus. I’m sitting there, and all of the sudden I realize, this is not when you really want to tell people who you are. I’ve just seen what happened to my very best friend and knew that that was, you know, going to be really difficult for her for a long time. I had seen the look on her parents’ face, and I thought, “I will deny. I will do what I have to do.” I really was just still very naïve, and it wasn’t very difficult for me, as well. I just didn’t say anything; I didn’t volunteer. I said, “Well, that’s really not true.” I really had not been active on campus, but yet, you know, this was what was going to be said. Didn’t know if it was—if I had been implicated or not, it was all very hush-hush. This was a very crucial time, and this woman was really not a very nice woman; she was pretty mean, pretty vindictive. She had already had a…kind of a reputation among the students anyway as being somebody that was very bold, and so I kept my mouth shut. She made some comments, and I can’t remember now what it was that—I went to my friends and I said, “What does this mean?” (Laughs) I think she used the term “active.” I think that was what it was. I had not a clue what she was really talking about. I could remember running over to one of the few women that I really, honestly did know that she was a homosexual or a lesbian, went running over to her room afterwards—she wasn’t even going to let me in the room because everybody then—talk about shutting down doors. I mean, it was just really serious business because I wasn’t the only one that got called into office; several did. As far as I know, nobody else got dismissed, but it was— Belmonte It sounds as if Vivienne was asked to name names. Gearin Oh, and that she did. She did. She named quite a few, which really was kind of bad. I felt worse in terms of her having done that because of the repercussions for all of us. I often wondered if she was angry at me. I’ve often wondered if she was angry at me, and that’s why she did that for some reason. Although, I didn’t know what I had done to anger her. Belmonte It’s possible they told her if she did, they’d let her off. Gearin Might have, yeah. It’s hard to say, not knowing what the conversation was. 9 �Belmonte It’s interesting because a lot of students, I think, have—you know, they think the ’60s, they think wild sexual revolution but don’t really understand that policies like this were still in place all over the country, that these changes were really not made until after the ’60s, in some ways. OSU had very similar policies during the same time. Do you know what happened to Vivienne, ultimately? Gearin Yeah, she left school. She and the woman that she was involved with, they both got expelled from school. She went to California, where she had a brother and a sister living out there, and lived out there for several years and then ended up moving back to Oklahoma. Lived in Norman and worked with the post office. When I actually had finished my master’s degree, that was ’75, I came back in ’75, she was working with the post office in Norman. We actually got to meet up again after all those years, and that— but I never did remember to ask her that question, why she did do that. It was like we didn’t talk about it. I don’t think—I spent a few months with her. Off-and-on, we had a talking relationship for maybe about a year, but we didn’t get to see each other very frequently because I was busy with my status in my career at Muskogee, and she was very busy there and was in a relationship. I never did really find out exactly why she did what she did what she did. We had never talked about it. It was just kind of—we never really talked about it at that point. She was pretty actively involved in the gay community in Oklahoma City, Norman. You know, she was really—I think she may have even been out at work. I’m not so sure that she might not have been. This would have been ’75. Belmonte Sounds like someone who would have just been compelled to do it. Gearin Absolutely. Belmonte After this rather horrible experience in college, did you just go back in the closet to yourself? Gearin Oh, absolutely. Oh, listen. This was—we were about fifty miles from Lawton, and Lawton was a big military town, Army primarily. It was like the Army guys were always up every weekend because this was a women’s college, remember, so it was great for women dating soldiers. I mean, it was a great atmosphere. After that happened, [inaudible] decided, “Okay, I’m going to look real normal on this campus,” (Laughs) because I valued what I was doing there. I really wanted to make sure I got my education. The message was really clear; I mean, we were just—there was no way; everybody on campus knew what had happened. The Dean of Women made it very clear; the president made it very clear that, “Hey, you behave that way and we catch you, you’re gone.” It was like all of us—talk about going into the closet; we were down underneath the ground. We were so buried so 10 �deep. It was—I, at that point, in time decided, “Well, I think I’ll go and explore the other side and see what that’s like.” I really became heterosexual at that particular point in time in my life. It was like, that’s gone. I’m not going to do that again; I buried it. It’s too costly. It’s too much to risk. I don’t want to lose all of these things I wanted. That was kind of the brunt of that, and really it was not bad because I think all of those experiences of dating the military men have helped me in my career with the VA; it’s interesting. Belmonte When did you once again decide this is a part of me that I am not willing to sublimate anymore? Gearin When I was working on my master’s degree—this is kind of a funny story— when I was working on my master’s degree—here I am in San Francisco, which, I mean, the openness of the gay community, even in the ’70s, the early ’70s, was really pretty remarkable. Belmonte Do you recall how you responded to them initially? Gearin Well, I can remember thinking, “Oh, they’re really bold here!” It was like, “Oh my god, are they going to get arrested?” Then I realized that nobody noticed. It was like nobody saw two men walking down the street, holding hands, hugging, kissing; it was like nobody paid any attention. It was a normal part of behavior. My brain started trying to unwind some of all that I had twisted, and it was like, “Okay, if it’s all right to do this, well, now the thoughts come back.” Maybe this is the time where I can start to go back and look at this because I knew that I really was not heterosexual; there was no doubt in my mind. That was not where I wanted to be. I had gone that route just to be normal, and I had engaged myself really, totally in studies. I was a really good student, and I loved school. I really just kind of sublimated all of my sexual energy in just, you know, “Okay, we don’t exist. Let’s just do well in school, study, and have friends.” I did a lot of fun things, traveled a lot, and enjoyed my college—my careers. Remember, this is my third university now. I’m at the University of California, San Francisco, which is actually my third stop. Along the way, I had to take a course with getting a degree in—a master’s in psychiatric nursing. One of the courses that I had to take was human sexuality. In fact, we had several courses that we had to take. I had several clinical hours that I had to do stuff. It was like—I remember the first class, and we were sitting there, talking. There was like twenty of us in the class. The professor came in, and she said, “Okay, these are the things that you will be doing by the end of the term.” We had to [inaudible], we had to— yeah, see the life of prostitutes and all this other sort of stuff. We ended up having to go the sexual history museum there, which was just incredible. I mean, if you’ve never been to San Francisco and been to their museum of 11 �pornography and sexual history, it just—it was incredible. Had to go to a gay bar, had to go to—had to interview people with disabilities that had sexual dysfunctioning because of physical limitations. It was all sorts of things that was included in this course. I became very familiar with SIECUS [Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States]. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with SIECUS, but that was my first introduction, really, to SIECUS and knowing and understanding that that really existed. Belmonte SIECUS is the nation’s, I think, oldest sex education advocacy organization. Gearin Right. They provided all the film work, and all of the films that we saw in the class were actually done by them. It was like, “Well, you’re turned loose on the city, so here you go.” Belmonte Now, this would have been coexistent with the time that it was tremendous tumult in the psychiatric profession about the removal of homosexuality from the— Gearin It was. It happened actually just two years later. I’m trying to remember what year was that... Belmonte ’74. Gearin Was it ’74? Yeah. This was ’72 when I was there. Belmonte Do you recall what you were being taught about homosexuality and whether or not the professors you had were challenging that? Gearin They were not challenging that, and they were really already talking pretty much as if it wasn’t an abomination; it was not a mental disorder. I can remember that several of the professors, several of the psychiatrists that we came in contact with in our clinical rotations, we had homosexual patients, but they did not really—unless their sexuality was an issue with that particular person, it was not an issue. I mean, if they were depressed, and they happened to be gay, that was not—you know, you didn’t treat them being gay. We didn’t try to change them or anything like this. I had seen some of that when I was in the University of Colorado, where there was some real effort to change. You know, they were doing sex changes in San Francisco, by the way, and I got in on doing some interviews with psychologists and joined through some of the progress—some of the process of what they were doing to see if indeed this person was mentally stable for a sex change operation. They had to go through a huge psychological evaluation before the surgeons—you know, they would really do any kind of procedures and things like this. Being involved in how they 12 �were preparing for those interviews and what kind of information they wanted to get and, you know, all this sort of thing. It was really a pretty fascinating time. Belmonte Definitely. When did you decide to come back to Tulsa? Gearin I had really pretty much decided when I went to graduate school, that after I finished, I really wanted to come home. I had been away for a long time. I knew that the education I had gotten, that nurses here were not getting that. I really wanted to be able to bring some of that back and to perhaps do some changing in education for nursing here in Oklahoma, and the only way you’re going to do that is you have to bring what you learned back. So I did do that. When I interviewed for the job position in Muskogee, I had to, first of all, be approved by the University of Oklahoma. In fact, it was a clinical appointment. Muskogee and the VA would not have been able to have hired me had not the University of Oklahoma approved my. Now, mind you, the irony in all of this is that the University of Oklahoma denied me admission to medical school, but now I’m good enough to teach their students and their residents. I thought that was really kind of a neat irony in my lifetime, that I had come back around, and, you know, that bus does keep coming back around. When I interviewed at the University of Oklahoma and talked with them, they asked me to do a colloquium because they had no idea that nursing education was as broad as [inaudible] and that I could do and that I had the ability to do what I did, which was primarily to be a psychotherapist. I had a huge background in medicine, as well. I had several classes in psychopharmacology, and they were just asking me questions. “Well, what about this drug? What about that drug? What about this diagnosis?” They could not believe the level of the education that I had, so I was the first clinical specialist to come to the state of Oklahoma and practice. I was the first to be asked to do a colloquium for the University of Oklahoma. Went down to Oklahoma City and, you know, did a presentation with—I think it was—it seemed like, to me, it was two hundred of them at that audience because I was a little overwhelmed that everyone there was a physician, but they were all fascinated and wanted to know how I knew what I knew and what kind of education I had gotten. It was really a very rewarding experience to go back and talk with the doctors, and, you know, they really treated me as a peer, which was a real special feeling for me. Belmonte How did you find out about gay life in Tulsa? Gearin It’s kind of interesting. When I got to Muskogee…you’ll laugh at this. This will tell you how I really met my lover of twenty-five years. I was working at the VA, and I had just gotten there from California. This—when I was when I was a nurse, and she worked on one of the units. She was—they 13 �were actually the first unit to call me for a consult. They had a patient there that was giving them some problems, and they felt like maybe I could come in and see the patient. So I came in, all very serious-minded, and I had to wear lab coats at that time, but I couldn’t wear regular clothes. Now, I was a California girl by this time and grew up just after the flower children. I was in the—lived right on Haight-Ashbury, lived right on Ashbury Street, just up from Haight. It was all a lot of flower children, free thinking, and I had had a wonderful, rich life when I lived in San Francisco. One of the things was mini-skirts were really big then, and I had some wonderful mini-skirts and things like this. I was much slimmer, and I’m tall anyway and was very tan. I guess when I came on to the hospital, I had all the doctors just absolutely coming in, married or not married, and it was like, “Oh no, don’t want to go here, don’t want to do this.” When I first came on that unit, Linda saw me, and she was the one that had actually requested the consult. This is a straight woman; she had already been married three times, I think it was. Belmonte Clearly didn’t take. Gearin Cleary. (Laughter) Clearly didn’t take. At any rate she—after I finished the consult, she says, “Why don’t you call me sometime?” Well, I’ve never— when you do that, you have to ask me specifically. I’m so naïve, and up in here, I don’t see things. I had no “gay-dar.” Absolutely none, zero, zip. I still don’t have a whole lot of it, but she had good “gay-dar,” which was good for us in our relationship because that’s really how we made friends. She was able to sense and understand, and after we did get together, we started dating and things like this. We met a couple there in Muskogee, and they told us about a bar here in Tulsa. It was over on Memorial, and “Let’s just go up.” I can remember that we, the four of us, came up one Saturday, drove up from Muskogee and walked into that bar, and I thought, “Oh my god, this is wonderful.” Belmonte What was the name of this bar? Gearin Oh my lord, you would ask me. I know I know it just as well, and everybody will know it…The Club. Just The Club: that was it, The Club. Jody and Muriel did—they were a great couple. We became pretty regular customers. (Laughs) You know, every weekend, we’d come up, and, you know, pretty much every weekend, met a group of women and started socializing. Then I had an opportunity to move up here in ’78 because we were going to open a clinic. We knew by that time that we were going to open a clinic here in Tulsa. I had made some really good friends, a couple of guys that we met— they were really—one of them was really quite closeted. He worked at American Airlines, so that was still, you know, early ’70s, late ’70s, early ’80s. He was not inclined to be too out at that particular time, and so we met 14 �these two guys and we just had a great time. Jan was from Amsterdam, and we just had a—we were just kind of soulmates, the four of us. We always had a really good time in doing things, and so the house next door to them came up for sale. Even though I knew we were going to move up here eventually, I didn’t really anticipate that it would be ’78, but it was ’78 when we bought the house and moved in. A year later, the clinic opened. Seventy-nine is when the clinic in the VA opened, so I no longer had to commute, which was much better, because that was a long commute. Once we moved up here, then things really began to grow and stuff. Linda was always a very social person, I mean, and very talented. She was a singer, so she was always out in clubs and things like this. She never met strangers. We very rapidly developed a good, close network of friends, and actually met Dennis Neill through—who’s involved—founder, really, of TOHR, pretty much. Met him and started doing some socializing through the Black and White group. I don’t know if you’ve—have you heard about the Black and White? Belmonte Tell me what you know about it. Gearin Oh, lord. That was a group of guys that decided they wanted to have fun and have a big party every year, so they would have a black and white party. You wore black and white. I mean, the theme was always black and white. You knew what it was, what it was going to be. I’m trying to think—there was quite a few of them at first. I knew several of them, and the first one we went to was down—the first one that Linda and I went to was on—just off of Riverside, at that club—I can’t think of the name of it—but I do believe that was the very first year they had that. That was at like 19th and Riverside, just right up over Riverside. It was the most wonderful time; we just had a ball. It was just all gay people. I mean, it was just absolutely wonderful to think that there’s this many of us, you know. It grew and grew and grew. I mean, every year, it got bigger and bigger. I think—I’m not sure how many years we did that, but it was quite a few years that they did that. It was the big party of the year. Belmonte Was that the first time you recall being at a place with a large number of gay people in Tulsa? Gearin Yes, so it was really fun. It was a lot of fun. Belmonte One of the things that strikes me was being in Tulsa in 2004, is it’s very easy to tap into networks of guys here, but the women’s community is very different. Yet, every once in a while, you’ll stumble into a party or something, and there are two, three hundred people that you probably will never see again. Do you recall similar experiences earlier? 15 �Gearin You know, it was really difficult to meet a lot of women. Most of the women we met were through The Club, which was predominantly a women’s bar. Yeah, you know, it was like—most of the times we went to events, we would be sometimes the only women, or there might be one other couple. Now, at the Black and White, that was not necessarily true, and gradually, more and more women did come. That first year, there weren’t nearly as many women as there were men, but it’s always kind of been that way; it’s an interesting phenomenon, I think, for here. I think today, it still is, to some of that degree. Lots of times, we’ll go to dinner parties and things like this and be the only women, you know. I know that these gay guys have other gay women friends, but it’s—I don’t know, it’s just kind of a strange situation. Belmonte You’ve mentioned The Club. Do you recall any other lesbian establishments? Gearin That was the major—there were several other bars around, but that really was the one that was best known for the women. It was owned by the women and operated by them, so even though the guys would come in there, it was pretty well known that it was primarily the women’s bar. You could go to some of the other gay bars in town, but lots of times, if you went, there may not be any other women there. It was pretty much the men that were in the other bars. Belmonte Now, were you involved in any sort of sports networks? I know that’s always been a good place for gay women to find one another. Gearin Actually not. I didn’t play sports. I really was a very good softball player, basketball player in college, but somehow, didn’t fall into that—how I really started meeting women outside of the bars was through TOHR. I was just earlier talking with a friend, trying to remember exactly when that was. I believe that I first started getting involved with TOHR about ’84, ’83, ’84…’85. How I really got involved with them—I remember doing by-laws; I can remember all sorts of things. They developed the telephone hotline, and John Dratz, who was an attorney here at that particular point in time, was trying to get it going. I had helped Tulsa, the city of Tulsa, develop the hotline here and train, and so he wanted me to work on the hotline for TOHR. That’s—I’m not sure what year that was that we opened that, but I think it was like ’85, maybe, or ’86. I’m not real sure. That was when the helpline really came into play. We even had it at a bar; we had it at Zipper’s. That’s where we were the very first few times that we took calls. (Laughter) I’d go down to the bar and, you know, walk in and go through the bar and go to the back office, you know. It was just amazing, it was just amazing. Belmonte Zipper’s sounds like it was quite the hub of gay life here for a long time. Do you have any memories of Zipper’s? 16 �Gearin Oh yes. It was really a great place. It was for everybody: you know, lots of dancing, lots of good music. It was really a pretty fun place to go. As I said, when I first was going there, I was working. You know, I was going into the back rooms and answering the phone. It was really was a fun place. Lots of folks would be there. We would always just be real decadent and acting out and doing our thing and thinking, “Oh, I wonder if anybody knows what really goes on behind these walls.” By the way, that would have been a good name for a movie, If These Walls Could Talk. You know, we had lots of fun with that. That was kind of interesting times, fun times. Belmonte You began telling us this story about what happened to Vivienne. Do you recall instances of discrimination and harassment of women you knew or men you knew in Tulsa in this period? Gearin You know, kind of by hearsay, never somebody I really knew closely. I can remember hearing stories of somebody that lost their job or was refused housing, you know, this kind of thing. We were—you know, I think in the early ’80s, we were still careful. I mean, you weren’t just real free with— you were careful with what you did. There were a lot of things that we did in homes, lots of parties and things, dinners. I went to a lot of events that were in people’s homes. A lot of that I think was because of safety issues; it was more that we felt like we were—you know, could be safe and not have to worry about walking out to our car and having the police follow you. I can remember tales where some women and guys would have left the club and been stopped by the police and harassed because they knew. The police knew that it was gay bars. They knew, you know, they knew where they were. We weren’t fooling anybody; they know where we were. I never personally was involved in it, and none of my really good friends were ever a part of that, but I did hear about it. I knew a couple of times there were some beatings. Some of the guys got beat up, but they were never people that I really knew. I may have known of them, but I didn’t know them really personally, know them well. I was pretty fortunate in that aspect. Belmonte Tell me about what you remember about AIDS reaching Tulsa? Gearin That was horrible. I had several really good friends that died in the mid ’80s and in the late ‘80s. I started having veterans come in at work, as well, and it was probably the worst time of my life: to have people that you know and love and you care about, and to watch them just very rapidly deteriorate and die. They didn’t live; they died. It changed my whole approach to life because I realized how precious it truly is. We don’t, any of us, have the luxury of knowing, but those guys had the misfortune of knowing that they weren’t going to live very long once they received their diagnosis. Most of them had been positive, probably, for quite some time, but we didn’t really 17 �know and understand the diseases nearly as well as we do now. Those times were really difficult, and I felt compelled to do something to help, not just professionally but also within the community because we were losing a lot of gay men. How follies was born, and I was a part of that. TOHR had been real active with that. This was 1988. I’ll never forget this. How I know this is I’m an OU fan; I love basketball. The University of Oklahoma was in the final four in 1988. They played the University of Kansas, in fact, in the championship game and lost. We were at follies, which TOHR produced as a fundraiser every year, and my lover and Ellis Wagoner, who at that time worked with the Tulsa Tribune—there were two papers at that time—he was the entertainment editor, and he was gay, and his lover was there. We were there—the four of us were there, and Linda and Ellis get off on this tangent, and they’re talking about, “You know what? We could put on a musical variety show and raise a hell of a lot of money,” because there were like, maybe a couple of hundred there. “We could really do this big; we could really do this.” We know all of the musicians; we knew—they knew talent. They started plotting all of this out. That was actually the birth of follies review, which for ten years did a musical variety show annually, and all the money that we made from that, outside of our expenses, we turned over to the community to agencies such as Tulsa Cares, RAIN, you know, anybody that was taking care of—St. Joseph’s. We gave money to anybody that was providing any kind of health care or any kind of benefits to people with AIDS. That was the birth of that, and that was through—and TOHR actually sponsored us our first two years. We did the first musical variety show in 1989 downtown at the PAC, the Performing Arts Center. We had the small stage—one of the small stages, John Williams, and we ran these people across and did music—it was a musical variety show. Had it for three nights, and that was 1989. Did it again in ’90 with TOHR, and then decided in ’93 we’d incorporate it and just decided to do it all on our own. The next eight years, we just did it all as our own…our own source, our own wings, [inaudible]. We gave away almost 300,000 dollars in ten years. We raised quite a bit of money and gave it to these little grass-roots organizations. I was very actively involved on several boards with Shanti. I was on their first board of directors. I did group therapy with AIDS patients, and the community helped establish some of those groups. I was just as—I mean, really there was days during the week that I would leave work and go do some of this stuff, and it was like, almost a twenty-four hour kind of thing. I was just very actively involved in doing everything that I could. Did so for about ten years and gradually kind of started to burn out with some of them because you just don’t have the energy. Buried a lot of friends during those years; that was an awful time. Tremendous losses, you know, you had such a 18 �wonderful, talented group of people, and they’re no longer here. It’s really too bad because they were in the primes of their lives. They would’ve, you know, had AIDS not come around, been there, been here. Belmonte It sounds to me like Tulsa was actually pretty bold in responding to AIDS in the early stages. Gearin Very. We got very well organized through the Community Service Council, which was a United Way foundation group. Janice Nicolas and Joan Flint were kind of the spearhead of that, and they started getting the community together. All the organizations that were doing anything, we all started networking and we would meet down there once a month, and we would do planning. We would look at, “What are we having problems with? What do we need?” but there were several organizations that—respectable, you know, straight organizations—that were involved. It still offered, I think, for all of us, a little bit of a hope that not everybody is discriminatory, not everybody is going to dismiss us, that, you know, we are real people, we do have something to contribute. It was through those efforts of those women and some of the other—like the Visiting Nurse Association, our affiliation there—it was, really it was a wonderful time of networking and doing liaison work and growing and developing and, you know, meeting people and trying to see that we had a real need here, and we had a real void, and what could we do to plug in. It was a great time. It was a busy time, a hugely busy time, but very successful, as well. We had an infectious disease physician, who was very well-known in the community, Dr. Jeff Beale and his lover, Ted Campbell, and they were spearheading all the medical parts of it. They helped, you know. Everybody was involved; everybody was doing things. If you weren’t doing things, you at least went to some of the events and gave your money, you know, like follies or some of the other things. I can remember ice cream—there was always something going on. Interfaith AIDS Network was also around then, and they were an even—really smaller group. It was the Quakers and some of those folks, and they were involved, and they were doing ice cream socials and street fairs, and you know, everybody was trying to turn a dime. I mean, we were all trying to get money because we were wanting these organizations to help these young men. Trying to provide them buddies, trying to provide them support groups…we felt they were just hugely necessary. Catholic charities had St. Joe’s house, which was taking care of those that, once they became so debilitated, families couldn’t take care of them, and we could—you know, or they were abandoned. We could put them in there, and we could help take care of them. It was a time when everybody kind of bonded and pulled together. I think the gay community really started to see that they could have some support with the straight community. I mean, it 19 �was like—there were some real inroads made during that time. The AIDS crisis did a lot for other things, too. It wasn’t just the bad things; there were also some really very good things, very positive things that came out of that. This is just an incidental we’ll add in here. (Laughter) We’re going to backtrack a little. There were a lot of really funny things that happened when Linda and I used to go to The Club. They had a woman that was all into her; her name was Suki. Suki would always kind of monitor if we came in and came out and stuff like this. Jody usually was working behind the bar. Mary would sometimes, as well, and they would kind of circulate. They were the owners of the bar. One night, Linda and I were there, and it was a big crowd. I can’t remember exactly what happened to start it all off, but as I recall, I think a guy got pretty drunk and started getting pretty disorderly. Jody came flying across the bar, (Laughs) nailed a guy, pushed him up to the wall, and was holding him. Well, everybody is jumping up, and it’s like— everybody is now going to—when you know that something is happening, like a fight or something like this—it was the closest I ever came to being in a fight. It was like, everybody just wanted to, just gravitate. I’m up and out of the table, and the only thing I was really going to do was just to try and prevent other people from getting involved because Jody really had the situation under control, and the guy wasn’t really trying to fight her once he realized what was going on. I don’t think he ever expected that Jody was going to do that. None of us really did, but anyway, I was just trying to keep people back and keep them away. When I went back to the table, Linda is sitting there, looking at me, and she says, “My god,” she says, “I thought you were going to get in a fight!” (Laughter) I said, “Fight? No, I wasn’t going to fight. I was just trying to make sure that Jody didn’t get into trouble because all the other people trying to climb in top of him and get involved,” because back then, some of those women would have really just loved to have gotten involved. I was like, “Okay guys, Jody’s handling it. Just, you know, let’s let her.” I mean, they really would have liked to have handled it because there was a lot of role changes there. A lot of that was going on, that was when I was coming out with all of this. Women that were the butch and the ones that were the femmes. Belmonte So this was even in the ’80s that was still entrenched here. Gearin Actually, yes. That would have been the early ’80s. Probably because Tulsa is still behind, you’ve got to remember. (Laughter) Everything gravitates from the coasts, you know, either the West Coast or the East Coast. It takes it a while to get to the middle part of the country. Belmonte Janet, you were describing a few minutes ago a rather volatile situation at a bar in Tulsa and alluded to… 20 �Gearin Yes. Very exciting. Belmonte …the existence of kind of defined butch/femme roles in the Tulsa lesbian community. This is interesting, given that this was the early ’80s. Tell me a little bit more about that. Was that common among the couples that you knew? Gearin Oh, absolutely. When you went to the bar, it was—a lot of times, it was very much—you knew who was butch, and you knew who was femme—couples, you knew who were couples. I can remember Linda and I laughing and saying, “Do we look like them?” I never did see myself as one way or the other, but it was like when you went to the bar, it was really—it had to be kind of clarified as to who was who. You know, I would have people say, “Well, is that your wife?” and these kinds of things. I’m going, “Linda [inaudible] ever going to be my wife?” (Laughs) you know, because I had never—we didn’t know. We really were both pretty green with all of this because I didn’t have a whole lot of experience, and she had absolutely none. It was kind of fun because we didn’t really know how we were to behave, or if we had to assume a certain role, or not assume a certain role, or how we were to interact with these women. Over a period of time, you just kind of—you don’t even look at it, you don’t even see it, but I can remember the first few times going into the bar and seeing women who really looked more like men than they did women and thinking, “Wow, this is kind of interesting,” and wondering, “Should I—do I need to do that?” You know, this sort of thing. “Or are they just going to think we’re both femmes? What are we going to both be?” Struggling with some of that and not really knowing, having no [inaudible] what a lot of these women had gone through, it was kind of interesting to learn that they were very much that way all the time. They were that way in their jobs. I can remember my brother worked with Telex—one of my brothers—and there were several of the women that worked at Telex. They worked on those boards; you know, they did the computer things like that, and he knew them. He knew these women. He knew that they were lesbians, so at that particular time—we’ve since talked about all of this, I’ve asked him about it in terms of—retrospectively. It was kind of interesting at that time that they really dressed that way, they looked that way, and they had their wives, they had their girlfriends, whatever. You were real careful. I did see some fights. It was a whole new world to me to see women fighting, you know, across the lines and things like this. “Oh no, that’s my woman. That’s my wife. Leave her alone.” It was an interesting time at the bar. 21 �Belmonte Sure. That’s fascinating because this is something other parts of the country have been documented as disappearing. It’s starting to disappear in the ’70s. Gearin We probably, as I said, weren’t there. We probably weren’t there because we’ve always been a little bit behind. Belmonte You mentioned that you started to get a little burnt out with the AIDS activism. Gearin More burnt out, not so much with the activism, but with the follies. That was a ten-year, a year-round job for us. Rehearsals were in my house. (Laughter) All this sort of stuff, you can’t imagine. We made props in my house, and you’ve seen the house on [inaudible], so thank god it was as big as it was. We’ve had rehearsals out in the backyard by the pool, in the yard, dance lessons—I mean, the whole nine yards. It was a rigorous undertaking because it took a big part of the year to plan it. You had to know what you were going to do in terms of music. You had to get the music. Then we would have auditions and get entertainers and people across the city to help us backstage because we had to have a lot of help backstage. It was really a huge, huge undertaking. We did this on a shoestring budget. We would just leave ourselves enough money at the end of the previous show—we would just leave enough money in our budget to get started again the next year. We were always on a shoestring, but I knew it was always going to come through. I wore lots of hats: I sold advertisements, walked into businesses in the city and tried to sell ads, sold tickets. We did what we had to do. It was like ten of us that were on the board; we were a working board, and we worked very hard. It was a year-round thing. Belmonte Why was follies disbanded? Gearin Primarily because we just burned out with it. After ten years, we did ten years, and it was just too much. We were extremely successful; it was a very—by the time we quit, we were really doing quite well financially with it because we were making a lot of money. We had a patron chair; we started doing that early on. Bob Caesar was one of our board of members, and Bob was very—he’s an interior designer like Charles Faudree—and he was very—knew a lot of people. When we first were getting started with this, we wanted to try and get into the community—the straight community, if you will, because the gay community was getting pumped out, I mean, money-wise. They were supporting all of the AIDS things going on. We really felt like Tulsa, as a whole, needed to know about it, and they also needed to contribute. We needed the money; we needed their support. There came a period in time while follies was doing this, and I believe it was like around ’92, ’93, ’94, about those three years, that AIDS and HIV 22 �became a real popular bandwagon for you to contribute to if you were in the straight world. We took a real big hook and advantage of that. Part of that was Bob helped us to get chairmen—our patron chair, who would lend their name to the event and give us their guest list. We had huge numbers of people that we got involved and bought tickets and came to the show that were straight. We brought in a lot of money that wasn’t being tapped into, and that was really a good thing. That was a really good thing. During the course of the show, I would always give some interesting statistics. I was the announcer. I never was on stage. I was always backstairs, behind the scenes, with the camera off the stage area. You just heard my voice, and I always was the one that would announce the acts and introduce them and do all of these neat little things. I would develop some kind of dialogue so that I would give some information and history during the course of the show about what was going on in Tulsa and nationwide and worldwide. Belmonte Are there any tapes of any of these shows? Gearin I may have some of them still around. I’m not sure if I do or not. I’ll look in the archives and see. Belmonte It would be wonderful to have some of those, copies of some of those. Do you recall, in conjunction with the work you did with AIDS, getting opposition from the community in Tulsa? Gearin Yes, I got a lot of doors slammed in my face when I would go and want to try and sell ads or something like this. People, “Oh no, I’m not supporting that. Those men deserve what they got.” That sort of thing, I got it a few times. Not too much, but I did get it from a few businesses and things like that when I would try to sell advertising. When you have somebody that’s very well-known in this community, and very powerful, and very rich, and very wealthy, and they’re behind your show; they’re your chairperson, that’s pretty hard to say no to. I found that I would make it clear who was our sponsoring chair and what was going to be our patrons. Once they found out that, then I opened a lot more doors and was really helpful to us in getting incredible amounts of help from printing at the program. We got our program usually printed free, Judy Rogers’ lithograph. We had Kery Walsh, who was our designer for that. He still probably is very active in the community. Kery was wonderful to do all of our graphic work for our program and our layout, and we had several—we had two board members that primarily just did nothing but work on our program and our posters. We had some very well-known artists do posters for us: P.S. Gordon, for one. We just had an overall response that just helped bring in more and more people and get more and more involved. As I said, when you have patrons that have a name for themselves, then you have a little bit more 23 �legitimacy. That helped us. It opened doors. It did open doors for us. It was just a matter of like, after ten years, you just got [inaudible] about it. Belmonte Right. So the last year of follies was… Gearin ’98. Belmonte Oh, so not that long ago. Gearin We did the first one in ’89 and did the last one in ’98. Belmonte How do you think the gay community in Tulsa has changed from the time you’re describing, the years of the club, and now? You’ve recently made the decision to be part of TOHR again. Gearin Back—I was an active member for, I guess, about four years, five years. Then to come back after all this time…. I missed kind of some of the old things, to be quite honest. It’s interesting. I know—like with TOHR, when I first was going there and was really actively involved, we had huge meetings. I mean, we might have a couple hundred people come to a meeting. It was lots of folks; that’s what they were involved in. I miss kind of that. I miss the [inaudible] of getting up, conducting the meeting, all the things that go with that. The little subcommittees that, you know—I did bylaws one year, and I’ll never do that again; that was a terrible job for TOHR. I do miss some of those older things that we had because it was really nice. Now, it’s pretty much just the board and not so much the whole community as a whole that’s involved. That was nice. That was a nice thing to do. It was a great time. Belmonte I hope we can get that back. Gearin That would be nice. I really think it would be nice. It was very much needed back then, and I suspect it still is probably very much needed, that people do need to be out. I think the difference—in terms of following along with that—the difference is that, I think, I now go out more to people’s homes, even more so than I did back then. Years ago, I was out to the bars and things like this quite a bit, doing things, but now, it’s like you have small dinners with friends, maybe there’s ten of you and maybe there’s eight of you. It’s not quite so many large functions that I go to. I still know people that I met in the late ’70s, the early’80s, and they’re still good friends and we still socialize and things like this. I kind of—this is one reason why I wanted to get back with TOHR, was to get back with the [inaudible], see how much change has there been? Sometimes when you’re in a relationship, you don’t always see things and do things. When I was in follies, that was year-round. Even though the gay community was very much involved in all of that, it was also the straight community, as well. It was like working both 24 �of them because there were people on the board that were gay, but there were people on our board that were straight. I was not doing a lot of the other social things that I was doing when I first got to Tulsa. I was getting my social needs met differently, I guess you would say. It was more smallerscale in terms of homes and things like this. Belmonte Politically, Oklahoma obviously has a lot of work to do on gay rights issues. What’s your sense as a long-term Tulsa resident? Gearin I’ve always thought that there’s a certain part of Tulsa that’s going to be the redneck part, probably no matter what. You’re going to meet people that have bias; they’re probably not going to change their minds. I worry less about changing people’s minds directly; I’ve always been somebody, who, if I can lead them there and they don’t know I’ve led them there, or I can push them there—and I’ve done this for patients. That’s, I think, why I’m successful as a therapist is, I let the patients talk their way through things. Eventually, I give them little guidance here and there, and eventually they come around to where I feel they need to be to be healthier. They would agree with that, I’m sure. It’s the same thing in terms of the gay community. It’s like, you know, sometimes we beat that wall and we don’t really need to be beating it. If we just let life go, people come around. They realize that this is a democracy. This is, you know—we all want to just be treated equally, and that “Oh my gosh, did you know that your brother’s gay?” You find out that you know somebody gay. Back then, we didn’t find out that because we kept it more of a secret. Now, I think you see that people do know somebody that’s gay or they know of somebody that’s gay, and it’s like “Okay. Well, they’re a nice guy,” or “They’re a nice lady, it’s okay.” I think as we’re out, and that’s the beauty, I guess, of being out, is that people will see and understand us and know us for the people that we are. Eventually, our sexuality is not going to be a big issue in that. We’re all going to get there; it’s just a matter of time. It’s a process that we all have to kind of go through. I think that’s kind of where we’re headed. I think that’s a positive thing. Being a little bit of along the conservative and an old hat, some of the new things that were going on, like with the gay marriages, and I’m sitting there going, “Am I appalled or not? How do I feel about this?” (Laughter) It’s like, “Parts of that scare me and parts of it not scare me, but parts of that bother me in a sense that—oh, I guess I get the people with honey, not put it in their face.” There’s a little bit—it’s a fine line. Sometimes I really have to put it in people’s face, but then I don’t know if I want to be the one that does it. It’s like, “Okay, I’ll just sit back and watch it, see what’s going to happen.” I don’t know that I could honestly be on the front part with some of that, either. I would probably be more inclined to be—unlike Vivienne. Vivienne’s probably out there leading all of this. I’m sure she’s probably 25 �been on the steps of San Francisco. I’m not really quite that way. I’m kind of more of a behind the person, but I’m not going to lie to you, either. If people ask, I generally will tell them. I’m not going to try and hide that. I’m one of those that doesn’t talk about it a lot, it just is. As you get to know me, you probably know that, or you’ll sense that, but we’ll talk about everything, talk about me as a person, as a human, that comes first. Belmonte I think we’re going to end on that note. Davis Well, I have one thing I was going to throw out to see. You remember the VA. What was the impact of the “Don’t ask, don’t tell” in that community? Belmonte That’s an excellent question. Gearin The military guys—it’s really—I’m in mental health, so everyone I work with personally is very progressive. You’ve got to understand that they’re not going to be the ones that think that. We’ve been working in therapy with people who have been gay for years, so it’s not an issue. I think for other people, we all kind of laugh at it. It’s like, you’ve got to be kidding. That was the dumbest—I still think that was such a huge error in judgement to even have that as part of the military. Gays have always been in the military. They got by; they did well. They weren’t out, for the most part, although I think, again, a lot of people probably knew that they were gay, but they didn’t flaunt it, so they left them alone, and they didn’t—they just managed to make it. I’ve had too many men that were very actively gay when they were in the military, but they were also discrete, too. It’s a line of—you have to be real careful with it because there are some serious repercussions; you get booted out. If you get a dishonorable discharge, that’s a terrible thing. I think most of the guys would probably like to just see it not be there at all. It’s almost like it was an embarrassment to have it. It probably caused more bad than it helped. That’s usually perception of the military men that I’ve talked with. I have a lot of straight guys that talked—they knew they were fighting next to a gay guy, but they couldn’t care less. In Vietnam or Desert Storm or wherever, if they were able to fire at the enemy and protect his backside, I guarantee you they didn’t care that he was homosexual. They cared that he was a good soldier because that’s really why they were there, was to be a good soldier. I guess overall, it was—I think it was—probably most of us would probably say it was a bad thing. Again, I think it was a bad thing because originally, Clinton wanted to get rid of it altogether. When he realized he wasn’t going to be able to do that because he didn’t have the power to do it, then they changed it. To be quite honest, I think it probably would have been better off just to have left it as it was. I’ve always felt that that was—I think probably 26 �most of the people that worked with the VA or veterans probably feel the same way. I think we’re already doing “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I mean, when you really think about it, isn’t that kind of what we’ve been doing all along, to some degree in various ways? It’s always “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I’ve had people ask me over the years, “Well, how did your brothers find out? What if somebody asked you?” I’m going to tell them. I figure if they ask me, then they’re wanting to know, otherwise they wouldn’t ask me. I want to tell them if they ask me. If they don’t ask me, I may not necessarily volunteer; it just depends. Depend on how comfortable I am. Belmonte Janet, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us this afternoon. Gearin You’re welcome. I’ve enjoyed it, thank you very much. Belmonte This completes our interview. ------- End of interview ------- Addendum – Janet added this additional information in March 2026: Janet finished her career with the VA in January 2013. This is a brief synopsis of her career highlights with special emphasis on her carryover of her HIV work within the VA system. “I am not sure of the date, but I was invited to attend a 1-day VA Conference in Dallas Texas. That conference basically brought me into the HIV approach about treatment and education of VA personnel across the country. Since my area of practice within the VA was in Mental Health, I was a bit confused as to why I was invited. The conference was led by Dr Bopper Deyton from the VA Central Office. At the end of the 1 day event I was asked to attend a more detailed 3-day training in Baltimore. It was at that training event that I had been selected to be one of an HIV Consortium that would work across the country to other VA Hospitals to train medical and nursing staff on the care and treatment of persons with HIV/AIDS that presented to the VA for care. It was to be one of the most gratifying and rewarding experiences of my career. As an aside note I was sent to Chicago for an HIV National convention. Dr Deyton met me at the Conference Center and sent me to sit beside his friend and mentor. I was stunned when during our introduction to each other he noted he was Dr. Anthony Fauci. It would be the first of several HIV meetings/Conferences that we would meet. 27 �As a “by the way” I learned that Dr Deyton learned of me through a mutual friend…. Dr Jeff Beal! 28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Janet Gearin Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 22, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on February 22, 2004. Born in Vinita, Oklahoma on February 3, 1947, Janet lived in Duncan, Oklahoma and graduated High School in Lindsey, Oklahoma. She attended University of Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts (previously Oklahoma College for Women) in Chickasha, Oklahoma. She attended the University of Colorado and received a master’s in clinical psychiatric nursing from the University of California, San Francisco. With aging parents, she returned to Oklahoma and practiced with the 9 Department of Veteran Affairs in Muskogee and then in Tulsa. Janet entered into a 25- year relationship with a fellow VA nurse, Linda Stevens. In the 1980’s, both got involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR), the predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality. Janet helped with the TOHR helpline and became a key volunteer in TOHR’s HIV/AIDS outreach and testing. In 1989, Linda, Janet and others revamped TOHR’s annual Follies Review (dance and song stage show) for HIV/AIDS programming support. The Follies Review was presented annually through 2008. She also served as a counselor and advisor to Shanti, an AIDS support program started in Tulsa in 1986, and served on the TOHR board. Subject The topic of the resource Janet Gearin Oral History Project Interview from February 22, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janet Gearin, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS Support Program AIDS testing AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV testing Department of Veteran Affairs follies HIV testing HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDs outreach HIV/AIDs testing hotline interview Janet Gearin Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Linda Stevens OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma College for Women oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Shanti Shanti Project TOHR TOHR Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights HIV Testing University of California University of California San Francisco University of Colorado University of Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Janie Reeves Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s interview with Janie Reeves on November 19, 2005. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Janie was born in Denver in 1971. She attended the University of Tulsa and became involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, the predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality. She served as board president in 1991. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 19, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Janie Reeves Oral History Project Interview from November 19, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janie Reeves, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center Board President Janie Reeves Dennis Neill interview Janie Reeves Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript TU Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors University of Tulsa video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/cb45fd2c080c696f642bbf3a4ec34ca2.mp4 5200eb31f5519513b3b1c578c0a4b556 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/0a9ad56686aff1c861791cbd6e559964.pdf 9f05611ad7684b1eccd5aa7a33466e4d PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Jeremy Simmons Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill Date: January 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, February 26, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Jeremy Simmons Keywords Jeremy Simmons, LGBTQ+, sexual orientation, HIV awareness, community advocacy, personal identity, religious background, nonprofit management, Tulsa, equality Takeaways  Jeremy grew up in a conservative, religious environment.  He navigated his sexual identity amidst societal expectations.  Experiences of bullying shaped his understanding of acceptance.  He identifies as more attracted to men but has explored bisexuality.  Performance art has been a form of self-expression for him.  Community engagement has been a significant part of his life.  He has worked with various organizations for HIV awareness.  Transitioning from OKQ to HOPE was a pivotal moment in his career.  Nonprofit management presents unique challenges and opportunities.  He believes in the potential for positive change in the community. Summary In this interview, Jeremy Simmons shares his journey of self-discovery and advocacy within the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in a conservative, religious environment, he navigated the complexities of his sexual identity while facing societal expectations and bullying. His experiences shaped his commitment to community engagement and HIV awareness, leading to significant roles in various organizations. Jeremy reflects on the challenges of nonprofit management and expresses hope for the future of the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the importance of continued advocacy and support. 2 �Chapters 00:00 Jeremy Simmons Oral History Interview January 22, 2026 01:24:24 Introduction and Early Life 01:27:21 Religious Background and Identity 01:30:25 Navigating Sexual Orientation in Adolescence 01:33:35 Experiences of Bullying and Acceptance 01:36:31 Understanding Bisexuality and Self-Identification 01:39:24 Relationships and Social Circles 01:42:27 Coming Out and Community Engagement 01:45:21 Work History and Involvement with Equality Center 01:48:09 HIV Testing and Support Services 01:51:19 Challenges in Healthcare Access 01:54:15 Personal Experiences with HIV and Community Support 02:03:57 The Evolution of HIV Treatment and Public Perception 02:08:30 Community Outreach and Testing Initiatives 02:13:33 Navigating Funding Challenges in Nonprofits 02:20:23 The Impact of Government Regulations on Nonprofits 02:25:31 The Journey of Hope: From Formation to Growth 02:32:55 Reflections on Personal Growth and Community Engagement 02:40:16 Advocacy and the Changing Landscape of LGBTQ+ Rights 02:47:42 Looking Forward: Optimism for the Future Jeremy Simmons Oral History Interview January 21, 2026 Dennis Neill: Good afternoon. It is January, the 21st, 2026, and we're in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library at the Equality Center and we're having the opportunity to interview Jeremy Simmons. And Jeremy, would you state your name and give us some basic biographical information, like your birthday, your early growing up experiences, a little bit of your family background that you might want to share and your early education? Jeremy Simmons: Sure, Jeremy Simmons, I grew up in and around Bartlesville, so Washington County, so in the city of Bartlesville and it's, and in very small places like around Ramona and Tulala, like so in the middle of nowhere. At one point we had a 3 �house. It was like a half a mile away from anybody, so remote for some of that. I was born a long time ago and I'm much older now and I moved to Tulsa in 94 and that's where I've lived here over half my life and because it's been so long and like all of my adult life, I think of Tulsa as my home now. Dennis Neill: And where'd you do your elementary and high school work? Jeremy Simmons: That's a great question. I did it in different, at Caney Valley in Bartlesville, where the two schools that I was in and Wesleyan religious school at the beginningDennis Neill: is that the one in Bartlesville? Jeremy Simmons: Yes Dennis Neill: What year did you graduate from high school? Jeremy Simmons: Sometime in the 90s, and they have 56 peopleDennis Neill: Did you go immediately on to post-secondary? Jeremy Simmons: Not right away. I spent a little time at Tulsa Community College trying to sort of know what I wanted to do, and then I went to the University of Tulsa later in the 90s. I have an associate's degree in humanities from TCC and I had worked on a sociology degree that I did not complete. Dennis Neill: Okay, great, great, anything else that you can share with us about your family background, like siblings or other information you want to share about? Jeremy Simmons: So my life before I moved here was quite different and I don't really like to dig super deep into it. Just to be honest with you. I feel comfortable saying I grew up in extremely isolated rural areas, pretty religious background, as you can imagine. I did pre-k, kindergarten and first grade at the Wesleyan school, which is quite traditional conservative. So, coming from that background, although the interesting thing about it was kind of interesting going to the Weslyan School, I was surrounded by people from different countries and different races and nationalities, so then going to smaller schools and being not around that was sometimes more conservative, honestly, being in the public schools in a small town. Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about your early religious experience and how that's evolved over time. Any intersection with how you identify from a sexual orientation? Jeremy Simmons: Oh, that's a great question. So for me, in the way that I grew up, so all of my family was very religious and most of the people in my area were just very religious. So religion just dominated everything. And at one point for many years, next to a Southern Baptist Church, it was this like the second biggest building in town after the school. So it makes quite an impression. I was very Christian in a very traditional conservative way because I thought that that was there wasn't really any thought about it. It's like when you grow up in rural spaces a lot of times it's just like, everybody thinks that abortion is wrong and 4 �everybody thinks that homosexuality is wrong and everybody supports the troops and it's like they're sort of a far-right cultural line that blends with the religion and you just like 80- 90% of the people feel that way, or they pretend to. Yeah, so when I was quite young I was actually fairly conservative, which, looking back, it's kind of like okay, but then it's just kind of hard to integrate that old life with who I was later. But I also started making out with boys when I was a very young. Dennis Neill: Do you mind sharing what age you're talking about? Jeremy Simmons: Definitely by sixth grade, maybe by fifth grade range, roughly so. So even though everybody was far right religious, there was same-sex stuff and drinking. There were things that always happened. They were just very underground. You just had to be very, very careful about them, right? Dennis Neill: In that period, were you also trying to deal and date the opposite sex while you were in junior high, high school? How did you kind of blend those thoughts with your other aspects of your peers? Jeremy Simmons: That's another really great question and it's so hard to put into words. So, without, especially without doing like getting into psychobabble language, but cognitive dissonance is definitely a thing. I viewed myself as heterosexual and so I had girlfriends, but I didn't want to have sex with any of them and I did want to have sex with men and so, but it got to a certain point. as you get older, I think it's harder to even be gay undercover in some of those situations. I stopped doing anything with boys by probably 14, 15, definitely 16.. I remember by the time we were all driving age for sure, , like none of us were doing that anymore. It was considered like something that you just did as a kid and didn't talk about it anymore. So I just thought I genuinely thought for a while that if I just kept giving it a try, I'd meet the right girl. That's where my head was with all that. Dennis Neill: And did you go to like the proms or the other school events like that with… Jeremy Simmons: Very weirdly, yeah, I know, it was like when I talk to people who grew up, they want to talk to people my age or older. I come across a lot of parallels, or even younger people who grew up in rural areas still like who grew up 10, 20 years later than me. They're like: oh yeah, I mean, you've had to have a girlfriend. That was just a part of it. So also to, I was also kind of smaller. I wasn't super athletic. Not getting picked on meant being conservative and being straight and doing certain things. Dennis Neill: So did you have bullying experiences? Jeremy Simmons: Oh sure Dennis Neill: Over what reasons? Or what characteristics? Jeremy Simmons: I mean sometimes I would get called a faggot or or a sissy or whatever, something that, some type of equivalent of that. Some of that was 5 �probably more intentionally directed. And then some of it is just things that people say that are hurtful, like, if someone's slightly effeminate or smaller framed. They're gonna be compared to being girlish, separate from their gender identity or sexuality. I think it's just a jab, right, it's something that could be hurtful. And then some of it felt like more directed. I remember there was a lot of different experiences. Sometimes a lot of kids that were like one to three years older than us and that kind of range would try and isolate us and pick on us, and there was a one time where some older kids may just take our clothes off and I thought something like sexual assault was going to happen and it didn't, fortunately. That was one of the weirder things, but that's one of those things that happens when you get a bunch of other kids that are all supposed to be straight and hyper conservative. Dennis Neill: Were there any of these peers as you're growing up through high school that were more clearly out and comfortable with their different sexual orientations? Jeremy Simmons: No, not so. It depends on where. Probably in Bartlesville, but I didn't go to school there- very much, I think, and definitely not in the Weslyan school. Like you literally couldn't be gay and be at the Weslyan school, like that's a part of their rules. So it's like that wouldn't have been it, there wouldn't have been an option. At that time they only had school up through sixth grade and I quit before then. There are probably kids that that, looking back on it, seemed more effeminate or seem more physically intimate with the same-sex. That might have been something, but when you're young enough, that's all, that's okay. , there's a certain level like there's a little bit of bullying. But unless it gets like, unless you get really affectionate or something , like a little bit of that's okay. It's whenyou get into junior high kind of…Sixth grade and up is when I think people really start having more expectations. That was my experience anyway, and so everything started to get more codified, going to the dances and having regular girlfriends, you are serious enough to change exchange class rings, like there are certain rituals. It's like you needed to participate, and it was much easier for you if you did participate in that. So to not participate in that, even if you were straight and cisgendered and healthy, like, even if you were able, but like even if you didn't have a lot of bullying potential, if you removed yourself from the heterosexual norms, you definitely made yourself a target, so you had to either be- and some kids could do it. I remember the few people that did it- they had to have like a schtick, like they had to be the stoner with the motorcycle or something, like they had to have something, like you could be a black sheep in some, in some ways, but you couldn't just be like, oh, I'm just not gonna date me, buddy, right? Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about the process of when you finally decided what your orientation was, and how do you identify now that kind of that path that you followed in getting comfortable with how you currently identify? Jeremy Simmons: Right after high school, I decided that I was bisexual and I actually had sex with women, but very little and I didn't hate it. So bisexuality is somewhat applicable to me, I feel, but it was definitely for me. 6 �It was more of a transitional phase, and I hate saying that because a lot of people sort of pigeonhole bisexuality in general as that, and I very much don't feel that way. There's definitely bisexuality and pansexuality and all the other things are valid for me. I'm just very strongly attracted to other men. I had one girlfriend that was just like you're just not that into this, you just need to be gay. I spent two semesters briefly in Stillwater. I always forget about that in interviews and I was not very successful at school there because I was just interested in figuring out my sexuality and drinking, and doing whatever, so that actually I always forget that part that played. But even though it was just a couple of semesters, it played a huge role in my development because that's because I don't think I would have been able to be bisexual in Bartlesville or Ramona or wherever Copan, anywhere else around there. I mean like none of those places would have tolerated that. At the time in the 90s, I think a lot of people thought that that was just a bullshit thing, even amongst gay people and straight people. I think a lot of people were like, oh, there's just two genders and everybody's either straight or very gay. Everything seemed very bipolar in the 90s. You were just like: I'm this or that. Dennis Neill: Have you ever been married? Jeremy Simmons: No. Dennis Neill: What about any significant long-term relationships that you want to share. Jeremy Simmons: I dated a guy named Robert who's still saved in my phone as bastard ex-boyfriend for a couple of years in the 90s. He's actually a very dear friend. Once we figured out that we were supposed to be friends, everything was great. Um, that's my longest relationship. So when you asked earlier how I identify myself, I try not to do a lot of labels. I just I find it kind of constraining and tedious and then even when you get, even when you pick a label, then five years from now, like the culture and the language is going to change. It just seems like, oh, I'm just human. But the question is very valid, because I am much more into men than women. I feel comfortable as a male, and have always been perceived as more male than female. I feel like it's important to state this is where I come from, this is what I am. But I've had fun dressing up as women. I won by comp, by by crowd vote, at an 80s prom with the full canes. I won prom queen dressed up as Annie Lennox one year. So it's like I'm not really a drag queen all the time, but I feel very comfortable being, I felt comfortable being intimate with women. I feel comfortable being in women's clothes. But I feel more comfortable as a man and more comfortable being with other men. Dennis Neill: Do you consider your drag experience like performance art when you've been on stage, or have you actually been on stage? Jeremy Simmons: Nnot in a traditional way where I would get tips, no, It's been fun, something I've done a handful of times successfully and it was very interesting. 7 �To explain more about me to- I am a little bit of an experience junkie, so I like to fully understand things by immersing myself in them, without doing something like going really hardcore, then I don't feel like I've understood something. But a lot of times I'll do something like dress up in drag. I also was on stage for an S&M ball that my friends did and it's very fun, it's very engaging, but then I'm like: got it done, so, and I don't really know how to put that into words when it comes to…when you talk about sexual identity, because some people like, well, you're a sex addict and I was like absolutely not, like I haven't had sex since before COVID. Sexual sex is very low priority for me, right, but asexuality also doesn't feel right. It's like I say one thing and somebody's always like: oh, so you're asexual and I'm like: no, like I'm physically capable of having sex and I'm interested in maybe doing it again. , probably with a guy now in your network of friends. I have a huge network of friends. So that's one of the nice things about not dating or not having kids: it gives you a lot of time to follow personal interests and develop friend networks. So, yes, I have tons of friends here and I never have enough time to keep up with all of them, which is lovely. I have some that are much closer, but I don't know, when I was younger it was much more important for me to identify as gay and I think because- but I think a part of that was because I was told that that was wrong and because it was so much harder to do that in the 90s- be openly gay, especially if you were young and didn't have a ton of money. I think for people who have a lot of money or people who live in certain cities, it's always been easier for anything . A lot of that identity stuff was very important to me then, and dating was very important to me. Then the 2000s hit, I just got less interested in it and so every now and then I'll date and it just seems to run its course faster and it's done. Dennis Neill: Did you immediately get acclimated to the gay and lesbian community, like through the bars or other social activities? Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, Dennis Neill: And what was kind of some of your first experiences, going out and socializing like locations? Jeremy Simmons: Yes,in the 80s and 90s at a certain point it was okay to go out to after-hours clubs and and whatever your age was, and then I think maybe 92 to 94 range, before I moved here, they changed the city, passed law saying that they couldn't do that anymore. When I was a baby, like I remember- I remember going to Icon that did after-hour stuff and I didn't have my driver's license yet, so I was probably 15 at the oldest. And while that wasn't a gay club, it was a very gay-friendly place. Yeah, I remember the name, but where is the location? It used to be on Peoria, Brookside proper, close to where, I think it was in or near where Sharkey's is right now. Dennis Neill: Okay, so it was on that side [east] of the street? 8 �Jeremy Simmons: Yep, on the east side, definitely. Because at one time there was also what, Concessions? Dennis Neill: Concessions was across the street, very close there. Jeremy Simmons: Icon was great. And it was definitely, for somebody who was trying to figure themselves out, being in an environment like rural Washington County, and then coming there where there were people dressed in drag, and there was goth people, and there was ravers, and there was weird old bikers, and people were doing drugs all over the place. And so that was a very different world. It was very interesting. It was very fun for me. I was very young, so I was a little too timid to get too involved with anything, but it was definitely fun to be a fly on the wall at that time. While I didn't grow up here, I do remember things from the 80s and earlier 90s from here, because I've always lived near Tulsa. I remember coming out to some of those spaces that were definitely gayadjacent. And like many other men my age, around that time, I went to the Toolbox before I was 21, and that's the bar, which is now the Eagle on 3rd. I don't remember when, but it would have been, I don't know, before I moved here in 94. Dennis Neill: Did you live on your own initially? Jeremy Simmons: I had roommates for quite a while. Dennis Neill: Gay, straight, mix, were they your roommates? Jeremy Simmons: I mainly lived with a straight couple at first, but a lot of the crew that I was in were kind of ambiguous. I fell in with a crew of people that were more in the rave scene. I think that they were, and they were doing, there were tons of drugs all the time. I remember that much. I think there was a little bit of like vague bisexuality, but most of them were straight. Dennis Neill: How about once you left the high school environment and went on for post-secondary and then up to today, have you personally experienced any discrimination and prejudice with regard to your sexual orientation or how people perceive your sexual orientation or close friends that have experienced that? Jeremy Simmons: Oh, sure. I've actually experienced fairly little. Well, I feel like it's fairly little. Sometimes when I describe my life story to people who grew up in other progressive places, they're like, Oklahoma sounds like a shithole. But I also, once I was here, I was just like, I'm gay if you don't like it, fuck off. I made a lot of decisions based off of being safe as a gay person. I do remember one of my first apartments that I lived in by myself on Riverside, the guy made me put down an extra deposit because he said that if I got sick from AIDS, it was something like that I was more of a risk. I was like, but I don't even have HIV. But he was like, no, you're welcome here. It's just anybody with health problems or anybody that's risky has to put down an extra $250 deposit, which was a lot of money at the time. And I thought that was weird. I still think it's weird looking back on it. I was originally an employee at the Equality Center and then Hope split off, but then we still worked with the Equality Center forever. I was here one time when a guy 9 �came in and broke a lamp in the hallway and said he was going to something, shoot everybody. I don't know. That would have been…It was when we were on Brookside, and so it would have been after 95, but not a lot after 95. Dennis Neill: Yeah, we were up in there from about 96 to about 99. Jeremy Simmons: I was going to say maybe 97, roughly. So again, when people ask me to do the dates, it's kind of hard because I have to pick anchor events. I don't remember years well. So I know that it was after we'd phased out the 42nd Street Clinic and integrated into there, and that's when we were becoming more public, as OkEq was becoming more public about being an LGBT center. I think that even at the beginning, even when we were doing stuff, there was an effort to kind of have a little bit of a vague gray umbrella around a lot of the language that we used. And then when that center started on Brookside, that just wasn't working anymore. It's like, this is where gay people are. Dennis Neill: So was that your first experience with TOHR, or when we had the location there at the 41st apartment, were you ever involved in that small space that we had with the hotline and a little community? Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, so like I said, I think in 95 I came there for services, and then in 96 I came back for services early and started volunteering there. I had a traditional day-hour job, I think, at the time, and they had night clinics Mondays and Thursdays, which I think they still do to this day. So I was volunteering on Monday or Thursday. One of the night clinics, once a week I would come in and volunteer a few hours. Yeah, and to refresh my memory, so we had the space there at like 39th and Harvard on the east side, where the HIV testing center was like at 42nd and Harvard on the west side. Dennis Neill: So were you volunteering there? Jeremy Simmons: The 42nd, yeah, the clinic. So it's like, yeah, you go just past 41st and Harvard, take the right end on the west side there, go into that little clinic next to Tulsa Cares. We answered the gay, I think they called it the gay hotline at that time, something to that effect. That went into the clinic because we were staffed. And so I did get a very limited amount of training, and sometimes I would take calls for that. So it was usually clinic calls, but the other line came in too. And honestly, I didn't even know. It wasn't until then that I realized that the clinic was not a part, I knew that it was separate from Tulsa Cares. It wasn't just in a separate building, but it wasn't until then, later, I think it wasn't until 96 that I even really knew that there was an LGBT group that was in the space. Dennis Neill: Walk me through your early work history from the time you left college through the early years. Jeremy Simmons: Okay. Well, I did a lot of this and that. There wasn't a lot that was super interesting. When I was a teenager, I worked for my grandpa. He had a garage in Ramona, and so I did that for a while. But just surface stuff like pumping gas and 10 �bringing people parts, nothing too complicated. And then I got a job when I was, I think, 16 or 17, which sounds crazy now, but back then everybody just did that at Walmart in Bartlesville, and that was before Walmart became this massive sprawling show that it is today. So I did just miscellaneous stuff. I moved here, and I was doing Thrifty Car Rental which had their corporate headquarters here, and I think that they've been merged into Dollar, Avis, or some other group now, but they were a standalone car reservation place that was based in Tulsa for a long time, and I worked the reservation center for maybe a couple of years. And I was doing that while I was volunteering with OkEq. Dennis Neill: Is that when they relocated what is now Legacy Towers? Jeremy Simmons: Right, around 31st and Yale. And that was kind of interesting because I got to talk to people from all over the world. But it ran its course too. It was never like a permanent thing. And so then, in 96, I was volunteering with the Equality Center, not thinking about it, and they offered me a job, which kind of surprised me. I don't really know why. I think so and again, I just, , I grew up in a pretty small town and I come from pretty conservative background, and so I think people were like: you have to work and own your own business and and make yourself successful that way, or you have to go and work for a big company and make a lot of money. There's the concept of, I don't know, being a social service provider, , or an educator, or something like that it just wasn't really on my radar, which is weird because I was volunteering. So on the one hand, it was right because I was taking my time to help for free, so I had that in my nature. But then also I was like, oh, this isn't something people can do for a living, right, but it offered about the same pay as I was making Thrifty and I was like, yeah, fuck it. So it was kind of a lark, honestly, to start working at OkEq. Dennis Neill: Who actually hired you? Jeremy Simmons: Claudette Peterson. Dennis Neill: She was head of the testing program? Jeremy Simmons: Yes, right. Dennis Neill: Who was it before then? Jeremy Simmons: His first name was Jason, so Jason was doing the position that I filled. I don't know who was in charge before Claudette. Dennis Neill: I think it might have been Roger Morris. Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, that name is not familiar to me. Dennis Neill: Walk us through a little bit about your involvement there and then the transition process with regard to the testing clinic, as you recall, and the staffing changes that you recall. Jeremy Simmons: Sure, so it was also kind of interesting because I thought, because it's a medical job, and I thought, well, you have to be certified medically, but 11 �the state was doing finger stick testing. They were just doing a little finger stick, taking a little bit of blood and putting on a blotter card. Didn't have to be a phlebotomist, didn't have to be a nurse, didn't have to be anything. They trained you how to do that and it was surprisingly easy, and so I think that a lot of people were terrified coming in and so just making it feel normal and being nice to people was the biggest part of the job. That was the most important thing by far, and we had, I think, four employees at the time and that would shift quite a bit based off of state funding. When the state contracts would change, like the positions would come and go. It felt a little chaotic and it did for a long time, honestly, and it's a challenge for a lot of nonprofits, even as they get bigger. If the government funding is such a big chunk and then their priorities shift, then it's like, well, you have to be more of a counselor now, or you have to be more medical now, or you have to do group sessions now, and so you just kind of have to roll with whatever the grant says or get replaced. Fortunately they were pretty good…the state and OkEq and then later HOPE separately, were all pretty good about doing the trainings that were necessary because a lot of them weren't that complicated. They always kept it to where less medical or non-medical staff, non-counseling staff could do the jobs, because it just wouldn't have been an affordable otherwise, because we always needed a lot of free volunteers and low-paid staff or it just wouldn't have worked. Dennis Neill: When you did the finger stick at that time, was that still the requirement to send it off and wait two weeks. Jeremy Simmons: Right. Dennis Neill: What was your experience with that? Knowing folks were coming in getting tested. Did all of them, or a majority of them, come back and the experience you had when you were having to deliver a positive result? I mean, was there hope at that period of time? Jeremy Simmons: Not really. It was really really rough. It was hard getting people to come in, but if they came in they usually came back for their results. So if they were committed. We had something like 75- 80 percent return rate, which I always thought, oh, that's just so, so many people aren't getting their results. But at a lot of testing sites it was like 60 percent or less. So we actually had a good follow-up rate. I think a part of that was just being so openly gay-friendly and non-judgmental about drug use and sex workers and all the other things that people might get worked up about. We did have a lot of people come back in. It was quite, I remember, being from experiencing from the other side- like waiting for 10 to 14 days to get a result back was felt very stressful. While protease inhibitors came out in the 90s, their use and full understanding wasn't, wasn't in place yet. It wasn't until the early 2000s where that started to kind of shift. It took a little bit longer to get it fully ingrained- where we can have these long-term undetectable status kind of thing, a different ballgame. So then there really wasn't a lot that you could do. Getting tested really was more about hoping that you were negative,and then if you found out that you had HIV, then it was a little bit more about when am I going to need hospice care? How am I gonna live a fulfilling life for 20 years? It was more about okay, at a certain point this is going to catch up with me. 12 �Dennis Neill: The folks that did test positive, did you all have a referral list of doctors and counselors that you could provide to help them on their path? Jeremy Simmons: Sort of. There were always people providing services here, but not a lot, and it if you didn't have the right health insurance, it could be very difficult to get into the right people. I remember early on there was a guy named Jeffrey BealI'm sure you remember Dr. Beal- who was like I'm gonna make a clinic that focuses on HIV care and does a good job of it and it's gay, affirming and doesn't matter if people do some drugs or have hep C to or any that like. But a lot of places wouldn't take anybody with HIV. Or if they would, they wouldn't take any other problems, like if you had hep C at the same time or if you couldn't pass a drug test or if you didn't have good insurance or any number of things, because it was already kind of a stretch for them to deal with HIV. So we had some resources. They were few and far between and some of the ones that did it, like Dr. Beal, could quickly get booked up. So, yes, technically, there were resources, but for many people if you lived outside of Tulsa, if you didn't have health insurance, if you didn't have disposable income, if you had a comorbidity, you weren't really going to get care or very good care. Dennis Neill: In addition to Dr. Beal, did you work closely with Ted, his partner, who was providing counseling services. Jeremy Simmons: Fortunately, most of our test results were negative. When we would get a positive test result, people handled that wildly differently. That case where you just felt like, wow, this is gonna be a really tough case, both for you emotionally as well. Sure. So there are some people who like, under underneath it all, have a have a lot of cynicism or cynicism or optimism about life, and so this was definitely a job that taught me a lot about that. Because some people who have really terrible circumstances already and then we're getting HIV positive result, we're like, well, this is a hassle, we're gonna navigate it as best we can. And then some people- it was just all they could think about was how they were going to die. it was very clear, they were like, oh, and also some people wouldn't go into care because then they couldn't let anybody know is how they felt. Even if they had health insurance and even if they lived in Tulsa and had disposable income and didn't have a comorbidity, they might have been so closeted about their sexuality and in some cases, even if they were openly gay and had everything going for them, they felt like they could not let anyone know they had HIV or they would be shunned at the bar or they might be kicked out of an apartment or lose access to a kid or lose a job, which are things that definitely did happen to people. Not extremely often, but regularly, so the fear of them happening was much bigger than the actuality, but they were things that regularly occurred and so it made it made it kind of difficult. Trying to get people into counseling was always great. Some people would spiral and just party and not go to the doctor and their health conditions and overall life would get much, much worse. So not suicide by direct action, but definitely like, well, if I have five more years, I'm just going to enjoy it. 13 �Dennis Neill: How would you compare the percent, you said, fortunately, it was quite low on the positive side in the 90s. How does that compare with today, would you say, the more recent pattern? Jeremy Simmons: It's definitely shifted way down. There was a lot of things happening. It's just, it's a very different, from a public health perspective, communicable disease perspective, it's a very different game now. So back then, there weren't great treatments, like you could get on AZT and maybe combine that with something else, maybe get off and on AZT. There were different things that you could do. And it was sort of the chemotherapy approach. We're just like, hey, we're going to bombard your system with a bunch of toxicity that's going to kill the HIV more than it kills your healthy tissue, but it's definitely going to kill your healthy tissue. So you're going to get sick at a certain point if you stay on AZT or any of these other antivirals at high doses enough to actually help you. It was kind of a gamble. People had to just do their best with it. Now, not only are people living longer, but their health outcomes are much better and they're much less likely to transmit. So we had a lot of people who would get very sick from HIV or very sick from the medications or some of both and try and balance that back and forth. But meanwhile, they were often having a high viral load or a moderate viral load. And so their long-term health outcomes were never going to be great and they were highly infectious to other people. While not everybody fully understood that at the time, enough people understood it. You were shunned if you had HIV was often the case, but not by everyone. It didn't bother me, because I'm in the office around it all the time. But I knew that I was not the norm. There was so much fear among so many gay men that they might get it too. And even if you weren't worried about directly having sexual or blood contact with somebody, I just think a lot of, a lot of gay men looked at other gay men as, oh, well, they're going to get sick soon, sooner rather than later, , and they are potentially infectious. So we have to be more careful around them. There was, even amongst ourselves, I think there was a lot of people, there was a lot of, I think, serosorting is a term I've heard, where it was like there were groups of HIV positive men within gay men that were still, that would still hang out and have community. Which is why places like we talked about earlier, like Our House, were much more relevant at that time. But it's such a different thing now. We would often get 5% or higher HIV rates. Still over 90% of our test results were coming back negative pretty regularly. That would fluctuate a little bit month to month or year to year. But oh, when you looked at year long stretches and multi-year long stretches, it was pretty consistently under 10%, sometimes less than 5%. Now, as hope evolved and even got bigger and started testing more people, like sometimes the positivity rate would be less than 3%, less than 2%. You see a lot less of it. And the biggest part of that is the viral load being much more manageable means that people aren't going to accidentally give it to other people. 14 �Dennis Neill: I know there was an effort at one point in time to really reach out to the African American community with regard to testing. There was actually an organization that partnered with testing to reach out to the African American community. Were you part of that effort? Do you remember the special grants I think that organization received? Jeremy Simmons: I partnered with them. So there was, Derek Davis was very involved, Donald Rose. And this is that thing about human memory. Tall guy, what was his name? Dennis Neill: FUSO [Friends in Unity Social Organization] was the name. Jeremy Simmons: The interesting thing is we just always called it FUSO. They never spelled it out, so like that was the incorporated name. And they at one point they- Renfro was also a guy who was very active with them and I worked with [R.F.] Renfro and then he died, which was one of the…sorry, I'm usually very nonemotional these things, but every now and then he was a very sweet person and not that…that sounds like a shitty thing to say, like no one deserves to die from something so painful. He was involved with this group. He was so sweet and he was so bright and was so healthy and then, like a year, he was gone. Sorry, that's one of the ones that's always still really hard for me to talk about. Dennis Neill: He was not only part of that organization but a close friend as well? Jeremy Simmons: He was a friend, yes, and I knew him a lot better than many of the others and worked with him. It was very surreal, I think, when it came to the clients and I knew people in real life who had HIV too. I just had enough of a wall built up where I could still be engaged with then and care about them. I think that the grant, the process kind of fell away. He was a guiding force behind it, Derek [Davis] was very engaged, I think, Donald, and was as well…and I'm- I'm sorry I'm blanking on that, still blanking on the guy. I can see his face and he's a very tall and he would come up here once in a while. The way I understand it, it's just a lot of those grants, but a lot of those things fluctuate, and so sometimes too- I'm trying to say this politically correct- sometimes the funding sources change so radically that it it it becomes apparent that either someone doesn't know what the fuck they're doing or they're intentionally sabotaging the programs , and it can be hard to tell, because if we're talking about stuff that can start at the federal level and can have lots of intermediaries. For example, when we we formed HOPE as a separate breakaway, in part because state legislators were going after LGBT organizations and OkEq wasn't 100% doing something right on the financials and it was something that a lot of nonprofits would do- shell games with money, but it was also something that if someone wanted to pull the funds, they could do it right. While it was something that a lot of people did and it wasn't a problem, when you live in a place like Oklahoma, when someone goes on the warpath against you, it's just like okay. But even when we did everything we were supposed to do and became a health organization that focused on gay services instead of a gay organization, so we wouldn't get as much grief- the CDC cut funding to the whole state for all HIV programs because the state was just fucking things up so much. 15 �There's a lot of at state and federal levels and I think that I don't want to speak too much for a few. Because I knew them well and I love Renfro and I still keep up a little bit with Derek and Donald…I don't know all of the details there- they were there and it was great to see them being there. And when we phased out of the 42nd office, we moved over and had two or three offices were kind of designated to the HOPE wing or that. That's not what they called it then. They called it just something else simple like the HIV Testing Clinic or the HIV Services or something more generic like that. And then FUSO had a small office in the Equality Center on Brookside. Briefly. Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about that transition from 1998 when it became its own nonprofit. How did that whole process, and then when you felt like the ship was getting righted, as far as the relationship with the funders like the state and so on. And the various locations that you've experienced in HOPE testing. Jeremy Simmons: So, as I mentioned, we had some state funders come to us and said, hey, the state is going after anything that's too drug-friendly, anything that's too gay-friendly, and they're not going to give you money next year, probably. If you stay here, they also might audit you and they might end - was happening to an Oklahoma City agency that got shut down right after that. So, I felt like that was pretty sage advice. Dennis Neill: Do you remember the name of the Oklahoma City organization? They started something called the AIDS Support Program. Jeremy Simmons: It was something that hadn't been around forever and then went away. I can't remember it. And they had, because they were a part of an sort of an LGBT organization, someone there, an employee, had promoted some kind of material from NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association. And that was just like the grossest, dumbest thing, They were very, like at their core, that group, it's kind of like when you talk to certain people, there's like the public pitch, but at their core, they were very much about grooming and having sex with very young, under 18 people. That was a core part of that NAMBLA group. So it's like, you don't touch them. You don't have to listen to their pitch too much and you kind of dig into what's like what's going on. That's what did them in. I don't even know that they were necessarily promoting something that would have been child molesting oriented. They just did something with that group. At the time, I remember having this conversation with Nancy McDonald and I was kind of against her, but then as I looked back on it, because I wanted to do a leather S&M focused HIV group and just call it what it was. And she was like, no, that's not smart. And I was like, well, okay. That would not have been good. There's just certain things you can't do here or you're gonna get on somebody's radar. That's how it was in the nineties. I think this was actually before we split away from OkEq. I don't remember exactly. I just remember she was one of the ones and I didn't know her very well and I always liked her and respected her, but we, she was very, very cautious compared to what I wanted to do. In retrospect though, I get it. It's one of those things where I was like, I'm happy to say that I would have made the wrong decision on that call. 16 �There’s just certain things you just couldn't do without raising too many red flags and then the next thing , and they're going to find a way. First they'll audit you and then if you're not doing everything right, which many nonprofits weren't in the eighties and nineties, when you really look into it… like we were on a reimbursement contract, not a grant saying we could spend whatever. So we had to use the money and then get reimbursed. If you didn't do it in just the right way, if you did it and people would be like, oh well, but we have to pay the lights and so we're gonna do this with that, then we'll catch up and pay that. At the end of the year, would it all work out? Sure. But you can't, when you're dealing with the Feds in general or when you're dealing with hostile state-level people, you can't shell game with the money at all. Or you can maybe for a year or five years or ten years, like you can for a while. But at some point they're gonna catch you and be like, no, no, you didn't do this exactly right according to this contract. And so now we're gonna pull all your funds and mark you as someone who can't be funded again. Dennis Neill: So in the current day is the HOPE deal where it's a reimbursement type of process as opposed to…. Jeremy Simmons: as opposed to a straight grant? Yep. So that HIV money, ever since I've been involved since 96, whether it was for anybody, like OkEq. HOPE, Tulsa Cares, anybody, whether it's CDC-based, HRSA-based, this is what you do. They'll sometimes make exceptions if you can deal with them directly federally. So there are some exceptions. But most people get reimbursed through the state as an intermediary. And the state's like, you have to do all these things. You have to show us that you've paid for it, and then we'll reimburse you. If you get really lucky, even if you're doing everything right, you're jumping through all the hoops, and you're spending all the money exactly right, and going to all that work, something like COVID will come along. They just won't pay you for five months. Doing that work can be really tough on the people at the top trying to figure out the money. It is challenging for everybody. It always cracks me up when people want to start nonprofits. And they're like, well, we'll get government money. And I'm like, no. You have to have so much liability insurance before certain government agencies will even want to touch you. And that's cost prohibitive to a lot of places. It's like there's just all these big things you have to have in place. And most of them now require annual audits. And if not annual, you will, at least every second or third year, have a serious, deep audit. You have to have all your time ducks in a row, because even trying to do the right thing. We got better as we split away, we were like, OK, we're going to be more legit about money. We still made mistakes. We got better over time. There's always gray areas. , they can come in and be like, well, you're not separating the gloves that you bought from the state health department money from the gloves you're buying for this. And so now you're going to have to pay us back for these gloves, because we can't prove by a visual check that you're the blah, blah, blah. 17 �But we're using all the free gloves you give us, and then we're spending our own money buying other gloves on top of that. Does that not show you that we're using all of the gloves? Anyway, any state or federal agency, if they want to cause problems for you, they can come in and say, oh, well, you didn't do this exactly right. And sometimes it's not even in the contract, which is the most frustrating. , when it's like, OK, we did everything according to the contract. I'm like, well, but this is still an expectation. Dennis Neill: Did you say it was 96 when you first started with the testing? Do you recall what month you started with testing? Jeremy Simmons: I became an employee in the summer. I believe it was July 1st. Because at that point, the state's contract, their annual calendar started something in the summer, June 1st, July 1st, August 1st, something like that. Dennis Neill: And was it HOPE at that point in time? Jeremy Simmons: It was. Dennis Neill: Can you tell us what it was and how that transitioned? Jeremy Simmons: So when we were doing it at first, while Claudette was still here, when we would answer the phone, I would just say it was something very generic but plain, like HIV Testing Clinic, or something really just direct. I don't remember what it was that we said. I don't think anybody was too uptight about it at the time. But we weren't like, thanks for calling the Equality Center, or thanks for calling OkEq, or thanks for calling whatever. It wasn't about branding or anything. It was just like, you've called. Because in part, that building we were in was separate, and it was literally only for… When the people came in for the gay hotline, it rang on a different line. So we needed to answer that as like something, Oklahoma gay hotline, or something. We might have used OkEq as part of that, or TOHR. For a long time. It wasn't until it was not until probably mid-97 to late 97 that I think, we started getting warnings that the state was gonna be auditing people that weren't doing things right. The state was coming for gay dollars. At a certain point before we left, we were like, okay, we need to differentiate ourselves. To be perfectly honest, many of us that were doing the actual work were like, oh yeah, we're gonna have to become a separate financial institution, because this thing where- and it didn't happen all the time, but occasionally we wouldn't get paid or we would have to sit on mileage reimbursements and we weren't making a lot of money. And that's the one sure way to piss your employees off and be like, hey, we actually have to do this stuff with the money instead. So your paychecks gonna be next week, or we're gonna give you a paycheck but you need to sit on it for eight more days, or whatever. And we started calling ourselves HOPE right before we left, but I don't remember when. Dennis Neill: Do you know how that name came about or who created… 18 �Jeremy Simmons: That's a good question, because and- and I looked back- when we did a history project thing and I was like I think I incorporated us both times and Ithere's three people that incorporated HOPE. It was originally HIV outreach, prevention education incorporated and then about a year and a half later we changed it to health outreach, prevention, education. And I remember much more vividly the second conversation because there was this huge debate about whether we were going to be an HIV specific organization or not and branch out into Hep C services and etc. At the beginning I don't recall, but I and Christy Frisbee and Johnny Eilert's were the three people that incorporated the organization as HIV Outreach. So I was involved. I was like oh, yeah, that's my signature, so it is interesting what you kind of remember and kind of don't. But I don't remember a lot of conversation about it. I think for me at the beginning part I was like this was also the 90s, was a different time and I was much younger and I think at the time I was like branding, shmanding, Now I have much, I have much more appreciation for it, but at the time I was like oh, yeah, sure, yeah, we'll call it the this. It was like we have to keep the services going and if we don't, I think if we don't break away, they're gonna come after OkEq, sorry, TOHR. It's hard for me to use that name for some reason, even though I used it, and so the funny thing is technically I was an employee of TOHR . I was paid from Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, so I saw that name all the time. It's just merged, now OkEq. There was definitely a desperation. There was a lot of board discussion and some of it got quite heated because a lot of people felt like no, no, no, this is just blustering, which I don't think was true, but also I get it. It's like sure somebody, some random people- the state- say this and they're like: have them come to the meeting. No, that's not how it works. They're telling us this as a favor because they like us and they want the program to keep going, and they're seeing what's happening in Oklahoma City and it's duh, it's like Tulsa's gonna be next. That's what a lot of times the state people do. They start in Oklahoma City and then, if they have enough steam and need more attention or whatever, then they're just like: oh yeah, let's go after those guys in Tulsa and Lawton and Bartlesville, wherever else. Once we finally agreed to split apart, we stayed at the old building for a while and then we ended up getting another building space that was next door to Tulsa Cares again, and that was on Admiral, just a little bit east of Harvard. Dennis Neill: You were in the same structure? Jeremy Simmons: Right. For many years they had their main building and then there was a small building next door that was separated and we were there. They originally started off the model that they had when at the 42nd and Harvard complex, where they were like we're gonna be a home for a dozen organizations or more, so like the Names Project had like a, or Shanti had like a little teeny, tiny office, baby office there for a little bit. And then who else? There were other groups that had spaces there and we were one of them. We were definitely the second largest because of our staffing size and our funding capacities. RAIN [Regional AIDS 19 �Interfaith Network] was there for a little bit before they had their own thing. So it was supposed to be sort of like a coalition space. But pretty quickly, it became obvious that Tulsa Cares was getting the bulk of the money and that HOPE was getting another big chunk of money and everybody else was like 10% or less of what we were. The staffing and the client needs were overwhelmingly Tulsa Cares and secondarily HOPE. Over time, everything else, a lot of the other smaller organizations kind of merged into Tulsa Cares or finally moved out and got their own spaces. We were there for a while. Dennis Neill: Can you remember the street address? Jeremy Simmons: I think it's 3540 East Admiral Street. It's the Admiral that's north. I can see it always and there's a big church that was on the other side of the street and the building's still there and it looks almost identical to how it looked. I'm not sure if it's even being used right now. Blue and white. Tulsa Cares also started doing group meals at that time. IT started kind of changing what they were a little bit, I think. It was still good for us to have a separate space because people were just so terrified still of getting tested and I think they wanted like the least possible human interaction, the most private parking lot just as possible. We were there for three years to five years. I know that's a very broad term. I don't know exactly how long we were there. Then Tulsa Cares just kept growing and growing and growing and we were slowly growing and we were definitely, so we became the last two. All the other places weren't there anymore. And at a certain point Tulsa Cares was like, hey, we need to have a pantry and we need to expand these food services and we just cannot do this without a lot of extra physical space so you guys are going to need to go. And that was kind of debated and I think my director at the time thought that it wasn't going to happen and it ended up happening though. Christy Fresbee and I were the only two people that were incorporators on both times that we did the name change. We needed space, we had a lot of money for staffing and medical services but we were having a really hard time getting money for a facility and that's just a much, rent or owning is just its own thing. And Community of Hope on 25th and Yale was kind enough to let us stay there for like a year and a half to two years as a temporary transitional space. Then we moved, 3540 might be the 31st Street location. Then we moved to 31st Street which I think was a 3540 location. So that was on 31st a little bit east of Harvard. And we were there for about a decade. That was our longest location. Then we moved to a shopping center for a year and a half around 51st and Harvard and then Hope bought its final location that it owns now that's closer to 51st and Yale. Dennis Neill: When did you decide to leave HOPE and what are you up to now? Jeremy Simmons: I love being at Starlight, I think, but there was a thing going around for volunteer requests from OkEq for Pride and I thought about doing it but I kind of enjoy taking a break from HOPE and being distanced from that and being in some of those same spaces people just walk up and expect me to do HOPE stuff and so I was like I mean I think I just need to be a little further away. 20 �Dennis Neill: I was thinking maybe the late 80s early 90s Starlight was a gay bar but I could be wrong about that. Jeremy Simmons: Forever before it was Starlight it was the Chatterbox which was definitely not a gay bar but yes back in the 80s and 90s remember how we talked earlier about there was this golden time for teenagers where you could be wherever there was an after-hours thing. One of the names was The Factory. It was called many different things and so I went there as a little teenager but you had to wait until 1:45 A.M. or 2:15 or whatever because they made money as a bar and then reopened back up and sold non-alcoholic beverages. So yes, that was definitely... In different incarnations, a more overtly gay space or a kind of gay friendly space. But many of the after-hours places were…It was kind of Wild West compared to what it's like now. There's so many liquor laws now and there's so many ABLE Commission and police…there's just so many guidelines and so many people watching what you do now. Back then it was just like, yeah, someone's coming out of the bathroom with coke on their face, who cares? There's this wild thinking of that. As a teenager, like having access to that world, it felt like when people say it wasn't Studio 54, but when I see stuff like that for Manhattan, I was just like I get that general vibe. I don't know how it happens, but there's like you pay off the cops or you stay off their radar long enough or something , and it's just like people were just like whatever, and so there was more of that at those places. It was more of that live and let live, yeah, kind of a thing. Even the straight people were like, whatever, everybody's doing their own thing Dennis Neill: Switching a little bit to more kind of the broader community you're in, your involvement, advocacy, social activities and particularly your board service with OkEq. Jeremy Simmons: There was a little bit of confusion and hostility when HOPE split away from OkEq. I think it was pretty minimal and it was understandable. It's like okay. There was a little brief period of detente, but I think within several months, definitely within a year, there was conversations about us doing testing on Saturdays at the Equality Center. So we pretty quickly moved past whatever that was, and and started doing regular services here, in part to sort of help- and I've always loved it here- but in part also to sort of seem at that bridge between HOPEand OkEq. I became a board member and I became a committee member. I don't know exactly what they called it, it was something like the rebranding committee, so it was for conversations around the name change and logo, and so I was just… I was on a committee of people, some some board members, but a lot of other just community members, and so I did that and really loved it. It was a lot of fun- and then got on the general board and then the executive committee of the board. Again, I'm terrible with years, but I was on the executive committee as we moved into this building. Dennis Neill: So we moved in 2007. Jeremy Simmons: Okay, I knew it was after the millennia, but I couldn't, but it's just like. That's definitely one of those. I have a hard time anchoring it to another event. 21 �When I was on the committee, we were still in that shopping center on the 41st Street. Dennis Neill: You probably had what- Mark Bonney and Laura BelmonteJeremy Simmons: Yep, yep, I was much more involved with Laura because she was on. …She was very involved. Mark, I believe, was the president, but she was on the committee that brought me in, so I was much more involved with her, and then she became president at a certain point, yeah, and so I always remember being much more involved with her and, while she's on a separate board somewhat, I was more involved with Sue Welch occasionally for other things. I still, even though I'm with on the board, I'm still not a hundred percent sure what the different duties are between the two, like the, the two boards, just to be honest with…the Board of Trustees. I get it in general, but especially as we moved into the building, there was a lot of oh, we want to do this, we want to do that, and there was just like there was….It was very interesting trying to sort of figure all that out still is, because it's like everybody has so many good intentions and so many opinions and so many preferences, right, and so it's hard coordinating that. I- and it's something that I learned a lot from here- and I was like, okay, and I actually heard someone else say this from another LGBT group in another city- and they're like, well, but it's different, not that other marginalized communities or individual communities don't have problems also, but like a lot of immigrant families, a lot of black Americans, a lot of indigenous Americans….A lot of groups are raised within their own communities. So there are, generally speaking, a lot more acceptable norms and like expectations of what is gonna happen, whereas we come from every larger and smaller community. So I think it makes it even harder to get a lot of consensus. We have men and women and transgender people, we have all races, all regions, all socio-economic background, , and so there's all religions. There's not like an overarching norm, aside from maybe being an American, which is a million different things. I think it's just, I think it's common at LGBT centers, to make it harder to get true consensus because there's just so many different drives. Dennis Neill: HOPE in a way, it's certainly been on the forefront of advocacy with its education and outreach, so you've been part of that for decades. Are there other aspects of our community where you felt like you've taken on an advocacy role or in the future, you want to get more involved as you transition and any thoughts about our community at large as its transitioned over the years, the good and the bad. Jeremy Simmons: Oh, that's a really big one. I've worked with several different groups. I worked with the American Red Cross doing HIV education and education around blood-borne pathogens, and it was interesting working within a large bureaucratic, large system and trying to sort of make it be not scared of HIV, to be more open to LGBT. That's not my strength is. I enjoy doing it, but I think I need more immediate results. So I've always dealt with probably smaller groups. I volunteered for a while off and on with the Nightingale Theater and that was fun before the theater was here. There's a lot of small venues here in Tulsa, but before there was a theater here, Nightingale is one of those few spaces where you could do some really sexually 22 �explicit material, thematically or overtly, like, and so they did like a gay spin on the Dukes of Hazzard, stuff like that- that just there wasn't a place for it. Now we have an option here as well, which is great. So that was fun. I was one of the founding board members with the Equality Network, which picked up some steam but then eventually merged with Cimarron Alliance to become Freedom Oklahoma. I think it might have been called something else at first, but now it's Freedom Oklahoma, I believe. I've not kept up with them super well. They invited us to come and I spoke to some state senators about HIV laws and changing them, and that feels good in the moment. It's interesting to do. But also it's like four senators showed up- what I mean, and so- and they were mostly women from progressive women from Oklahoma City who were gonna vote with us anyway. Sometimes at the state level, it even it feels it can feel a little daunting. But because of that, I think that groups like OkEq and Freedom Oklahoma need to continue the pressure because- and sometimes it's just luck, right, sometimes things just line up in ways you can't expect, like we got law enforcement to to get on board with decriminalizing needles to a degree, and that's not the group that I would have thought would have supported us, but they're the groups getting stuck when they do frisking right. Jeremy Simmons: Sometimes something comes from a place , and so it's like, oh, legislators will listen to them, in conjunction with other community groups and public health people, to to maybe decriminalize this. So we understand it's like: no, we need cleaner needles so that everyone, not just the people that are using, but everybodyhas fewer blood-borne pathogens that they have to worry about. So there definitely needs to keep happening. That's harder for me to be engaged with personally. As I've gotten older, as I've lived and been an American, America has gotten overwhelmingly more gay-friendly and Oklahoma has not. There's pockets, in Tulsa and Oklahoma City that are way more gay-friendly. But I just think everybody understands that those are little isolated oases. Dennis Neill: Now that you're kind of free from HOPE, that stability, but also that confinement of being in that one job, do you still feel like you're anchored in Tulsa, or are you anxious to experiment, go other places? Jeremy Simmons: I'm open to see where the future takes me. Some friends of mine moved to Spain recently, and they're making a big pitch for me to come to Spain with them. Which sounds kind of ridiculous, but then also I'm like, there's certain skills like bartending that are kind of universal. It's easier to be a bartender in places like Spain than it is to be a phlebotomist. So, maybe. We'll see. I really like being here, though. I love... when I came here, I just knew almost no one. I had tons of casual acquaintances at first. And building up all these deep friendships and seeing these nonprofits and these cool, unique little businesses thrive here, and being able to even just support them a little bit in some way, has been really lovely. I really love Tulsa. So, I'm very open to anything now. I don't feel... So, forever, I did feel like... And I didn't fully understand this until I left, but I felt like I had to stay. 23 �And I don't really know why, because everybody else left a long time ago from the 90s, but I felt like I had to keep HOPE going. I personally had to make sure that HOPE was going, which is dumb. Everybody eventually ages out. Everybody dies, if nothing else. And then everybody gets tired. Like, when you're helping people... I was a full-time employee for 24 years. And I loved it for a lot of that. And then, towards the end, I didn't love it anymore. I think sometimes when you're helping people, you have to make a choice to go do something else that's more fun or go do something else that makes more money for a while. I'm not sure. I'm sure there are the Mother Teresa types that can do it indefinitely. But I'm like, I need to... so, whatever I'm doing in the future, for the latter part of my life, I need to get paid more per hour than what I was at HOPE, or having more fun than what I was getting at HOPE towards the end. It has to be at least one of those two things. Preferably both. Everybody wants that job, and that's hard to find. But I did feel very anchored to HOPE. I was just like, we are one and the same. To the point that I'm not sure it was super healthy, honestly. Dennis Neill: Well, you provide us with a valuable history about HOPE, AIDS, and your engagement. Are there any final comments you want to make as we bring the interview to conclusion? Jeremy Simmons: While the current federal administration is abysmal, I think this is some dying last gasps of some outmoded thinking. And so while things feel very dark right now, I think things are about to get much better in the next several years. And here, and everywhere else in the United States. And I really appreciate everybody who's been involved with HOPE, and OkEq, and all the other groups. Tulsa Cares, Our House, all the other LGBT groups, all the other HIV and Hep C and harm reduction groups like SHOTS. I just love that I know so many people that are doing so much great work. And it keeps me... While I personally need a break from it, I love getting on social media. I love showing up to the Equality Center. I love going to a gala randomly somewhere and seeing all of the support that Tulsa still has to give. So, I think the future's going to be great. And I appreciate y'all taking some time with me. And I appreciate everybody who's interested enough in this to listen to it. And just keep reminding yourself that even though things look very... feel very heavy right now, this is temporary. It will shift back. Dennis Neill: Jeremy, thank you so much. This is an invaluable interview. And we look forward to your continued advocacy in our community. Thank you very much. Jeremy Simmons: Thank you. 24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Jeremy Simmons Interview Description An account of the resource Jeremy Simmons shares his journey of self-discovery and advocacy within the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in a conservative, religious environment, he navigated the complexities of his sexual identity while facing societal expectations and bullying. His experiences shaped his commitment to community engagement and HIV awareness, leading his long-time involvement first as a volunteer and then 30 years as an HIV educator and tester with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then HOPE. Jeremy reflects on the challenges of nonprofit management and expresses hope for the future of the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the importance of continued advocacy and support. Subject The topic of the resource Jeremy Simmons Oral History Project Interview from January 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeremy Simmons, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 21, 2026 2026 AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV education Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV HIV Education HIV Outreach Education Program HIV Outreach Education Program (HOPE) HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDs outreach HOPE interview Jeremy Simmons OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/6da3185e3c9411346acb45f174dd3c31.jpg 98c26387f8be6f490a4a4fa8804ee6c2 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/98b5266fc83c9948564198c691c566c6.mp4 0c0146cc3f558b39b5d63d4dae7ac832 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/062906c82060eb043f35e0daa45468ba.pdf 569c6056020b1a38f0eec877c89425b5 PDF Text Text Jimmy Flowers Story Subject Jimmy Flowers Description From Julie Tucker - Trainum, August 2019 - Jimmy Flowers was one of the very first members of the AIDS Coalition in Tulsa. he was a young man when he was part of Stonewall and in his interview he talks about Stonewall. jimmy died in the mid 2000s. he was interviewed so we could share his story at the YST support group "Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity." Creator Julie Tucker-Trainum, Youth Services of Tulsa Date Interview was conducted in 1999 or 2000 Original Format VHS Duration 1 hour 20 minutes [00:00:00] Julie Trainum: And we're here to talk to a fellow by the name of Jimmy Flowers, and Jimmy is 41. He told me his age, so I hope he doesn't mind me telling the tape. And all the things that you're seeing on these tables are things that Jimmy has gathered up over the years, specifically about the gay movement. And all of these things are very, very telling, but probably the best person that can tell is Jimmy himself. And he's been real interested in talking with us and with the young people to let them know what he went through and the things that he saw. [00:00:36] Julie Trainum: So, Jimmy, how are you? [00:00:38] Jimmy Flowers: Well, so far so good. [00:00:40] Julie Trainum: So far so good? [00:00:41] Jimmy Flowers: Yeah. [00:00:41] Julie Trainum: Can you begin a little bit with your history and saying what happened with you when you were a youngster? You can maybe talk specifically about when you first understood that you were gay and what happened with your family. [00:00:59] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, I've always known that I was gay. Number two, I was about 11 years old, and what happened was that I was kissing a guy underneath the staircase. He was 14 and I was 11, just kissing. And then my father, of course, he was the supervisor of the building. And I didn't realize he was home, and he caught me underneath the staircase, kissing the guy. He dragged me by the hair and sort of beat me, slapped me around, saying it wasn't natural, it was disgusting, it was a sin, and everything like that. [00:01:45] Jimmy Flowers: And my mother started yelling at me and, you know. Then took me to the school psychiatrist. This is going back to 1966. [00:01:54] Julie Trainum: And you were about 11 at the time? [00:01:56] Jimmy Flowers: I was about 11. I can't remember exactly every date or detail, but I was about 11, 11 and a half maybe. And what happened was that they thought at that time that if you were gay or lesbian, if they catch you at an early age that you would become a heterosexual. And so they put me in a mental institution for almost two and a half, three years. And in that time, they tried to come to us that we were sick, 1 �that it wasn't natural, that we were sinners of God. And they also, some of the things they did was very disgusting. [00:02:40] Jimmy Flowers: They forced us to be in the same room with another lesbian young woman. We were both nude. They thought if we saw each other's body that we would be attracted to each other. But unfortunately it didn't work that way. And then they showed us pictures of videotapes of men and women having sex. [00:03:04] Julie Trainum: And this is still when you were a youngster? [00:03:08] Jimmy Flowers: Oh yes. They thought if we saw the actual lovemaking of heterosexuals making love, intercourse, that it would change us to become heterosexuals. We were constantly pumped in our heads that we were not gay. At that time, we didn't know the word gay. We used the word fancy because it wasn't offensive to us. We didn't like the word homosexual. We didn't like the word homo or faggot or queer or bull dyke or lesbians. So therefore we used the word fancy because it wasn't too offensive. Then, in this time, they showed the male tenants, which was the guard. [00:04:00] Jimmy Flowers: Forgive me if I get a little bit emotional because some of the things that happened in the mental institution, you wouldn't believe unless you saw it yourself. I was given Thorazine and child treatment to become straight. And I kept on saying I was born gay. It's a little bit hard to explain because I like the word gay. I said I was born to be a fancy. And they brought a priest in since they thought I was on the religious side. They brought a priest in. And the priest said to me, and I'll never forget it. [00:04:48] Jimmy Flowers: He said, you are a sinner of God and it's wrong. It's not natural. It's against nature. And I just kept on saying I was born this way. [00:04:57] Jimmy Flowers: And then he slapped me, and I got a little bit angry, and I took Grant's collar from his neck, he was a Roman Catholic priest, and I said how dare you call yourself a man of God, if you are. That's pretty courageous for a youngster. I was about 11, 11 and a half, 12 maybe. And some gays and some young lesbians, they thought they were safe, and they committed suicide because they could not change. [00:05:32] Jimmy Flowers: And they made a stand up while they took a 14 year old lesbian young woman, and laid her down while the male attendants, she wanted to shoot me, while the male attendants forced us to watch while they were having intercourse with her. They thought by us watching, all the gay males we lined up, and the young gay females lined up on each side. They thought that they would make us to be straight, and they were constantly crinkling into our ears that we were sick. [00:06:31] Jimmy Flowers: So there was a lot of reason for young gay and lesbian kids to not come out, and to not say, and not let other people know because of the possibility that this would happen. So anyway, the young lesbian woman, a few months later, I don't want to go into every single detail because it would take hours and hours. The young lesbian woman, she was pregnant, and she committed suicide in her own room, and she hung herself. And I discovered her because we were friends. They had the females on one side, and the males on the other. [00:07:20] Jimmy Flowers: And I was the one that found her, and I will never forget that. Then there was a gay, we started a hunger strike in the mental institution, which was called Primory and King's Park State Hospital. And then there was another one called King's County. And during that time, there was this gay psychiatrist and gay therapist that was helping us getting out of the place. Of course, we had to lie and say we were straight, and that we enjoyed having sex with women, and the women enjoyed having sex with men. [00:08:06] Jimmy Flowers: And I promised myself, once I get out of that place, that I would never lie again. And I haven't lied since then, and I'm not going to now, and I never will until the day I die. Let's go ahead and cut there for a second. After I got out, it was about 1968. Did you go back to your parents? Yes, I went back to my family. And things were still, I had to pretend that I had a girlfriend, and then went to high school. During that time I was put away, I didn't have no school at all. And then I was kicked out of high school for trying to start a gay movement. [00:08:52] Jimmy Flowers: And that was back in 69, but we didn't call it a gay movement, we called it the Pansy Movement. Now I can laugh at it, but then it was serious. Was that in Brooklyn? No, at that time we lived in the Bronx, Bronx, New York. Then my mother and father, they found out I was still gay, they kicked me out 2 �of the house. I was about 14 and a half years old, or 14 or 14 and a half. I roamed the streets, lived from one person to the next. [00:09:25] Jimmy Flowers: And then there was hundreds, literally hundreds of young lesbians and young gay men that was actually kicked out of the streets for being gay. Because their family couldn't deal with it. And, um... [00:09:43] Jimmy Flowers: Then there was Spanish in society, and they wanted us to be good little boys and girls and not to kiss in public or to hold hands in public. They were using the word flaunting our gayness. And then we were all young. There was lesbians, there was gay blacks, there was gay Puerto Ricans, there was gay religious lesbians from all walks of life that was kicked out in the streets because of being gay. [00:10:17] Julie Trainum: It's a real diverse crowd out there. Real diverse. [00:10:21] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. The young gay blacks was considered a disgrace to their race if they were gay. A lesbian woman wasn't a real woman. They used slogans like, oh, what you need is a good man. And they used to use the word revise to the gay men that what you really need was a good woman. And we used to sock it back to them. I said, no. What you need is a good woman, and what we need is a good man. And so one guy, I remember one guy would say, you're not a real man. I said, how do you know? I said, did you have one? Of course, I'm a man's man. [00:11:10] Jimmy Flowers: And so therefore, if you haven't had a man, then you're not a man. And the lesbians used to sock it to them on their level too. Well, you're not a real woman until you have a woman, you know. [00:11:24] Julie Trainum: So a lot of the young people who were kind of on the street had to make up their own philosophy of living. [00:11:31] Jimmy Flowers: Right. [00:11:31] Julie Trainum: And philosophy of being gay and what that felt like. [00:11:34] Jimmy Flowers: Right. I'm not ashamed of it. I had to do some hustling to be able to hustle, and I was a go-go boy at the Stonewall. [00:11:45] Julie Trainum: What does that mean, go-go boy? [00:11:47] Jimmy Flowers: A go-go boy dancer. I should have brought my uniform, but they called me the gay midnight cowboy. That was part of my act. I had a black cowboy hat, purple shirt with white fringes, purple hot pants with silver sequins and cowboy boots. And of course, I was on the platform, and that's how I made to put food in my stomach. And at that time, I had to hustle because who was going to give a 14-and-ahalf-year-old person, young person, a full-time job or housing? And a lot of young lesbians and young gays had to do that. [00:12:26] Jimmy Flowers: But we protected each other, and we stood in a group. And we also protected the old ones that were taking us in, and we were not abused. We were not forced to have sex with them. As a matter of fact, there used to be a joke about me because I felt guilty for taking money for sex. So while they were sleeping, I used to get out and clean their apartments. So there used to be a joke going around saying, take the redhead because you get two for the price of one. Then came the raids of the bars constantly. Now we're getting into 69. [00:13:13] Julie Trainum: And this is in Brooklyn? [00:13:15] Jimmy Flowers: No, Manhattan. Greenwich Village. Then we started arguing with the police. There were entrapments of police undercover. There were police officers undercover taking license plates, numbers of cars that was in the neighborhood because they presumed that everybody in that section of the neighborhood were all gay, all lesbians. They were raiding the lesbian bars constantly, and the gay bars. We wasn't allowed to hold hands in our own bars. We wasn't allowed to sit close together, more than 12 feet. [00:13:56] Jimmy Flowers: And plainclothes cops used to come in and make sure that we did not do these things or slow dance together. There was also the gay rich was being blackmailed by plainclothes cops. 3 �[00:14:12] Julie Trainum: The gay, say that again. [00:14:12] Jimmy Flowers: The gay rich. [00:14:14] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:14:14] Jimmy Flowers: Because they had money. [00:14:16] Julie Trainum: I see. [00:14:16] Jimmy Flowers: And if they were caught in the section and the plainclothes cops caught them in that area, they just assumed that they were automatically gay and they would call up their boss and tell him that they were gay and they wouldn't have a job, they'd be fired. [00:14:29] Julie Trainum: I see. [00:14:29] Jimmy Flowers: And then at that time, there was lesbians that were beaten up, gay men that was found in the Hudson River that was dead. With their thing cut off, found in the Hudson River. And then at that time, we had signs on the bars that said, enter in your own grips, you may be arrested. Some lesbians was raped by male undercover cops. [00:14:58] Jimmy Flowers: Years later, we found out those license plates that they had, which was over 100,000 license plates they had, was going to the FBI. What license plates were those? Lesbians and gays and people that was parked in the Greenwich Village area. [00:15:17] Julie Trainum: Okay, so they would take that information, the cars parked in the village area and send it to the FBI? Right. [00:15:24] Jimmy Flowers: At that time, that's what they did, and they called it a scare tactic. [00:15:30] Julie Trainum: Scare tactic. [00:15:31] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, to keep gays and lesbians away from getting together and uniting. [00:15:39] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:15:39] Jimmy Flowers: At that time, we started having arguments with Mattachine Society. [00:15:46] Julie Trainum: Tell us a little bit about what that organization is. [00:15:49] Jimmy Flowers: Well, Mattachine Society started after World War II, about 1945, and they did a lot of things. They did help out a lot of people through courts, and they helped try to get a gay rights bill passed, a lesbian gay rights bill passed, secretly behind the scenes. [00:16:12] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:16:12] Jimmy Flowers: They believed and dressed in ties and suits, and women, lesbian women, had to wear high heels and dresses and be very conservative. [00:16:24] Julie Trainum: What was their theory behind this dress and doing things behind the scenes? [00:16:28] Jimmy Flowers: Well, their theory figured that not let the public, the religious groups, or the straight community know what was going on in the world. They wanted to try to pass the bill of rights for lesbians and gays secretly behind the scenes, behind the doors. [00:16:49] Julie Trainum: So as to not make waves? [00:16:51] Jimmy Flowers: Right, not to make waves, and Mattachine Society were the older people at that time. Remember, the ones that lived on the streets, the homeless, lesbians and gays, and young gays, we were all young, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 years of age, 19, 20, some was even 13, and the youngest was 12 and a half years old, believe it or not. And then the older ones that was part of Mattachine, they were in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 4 �and 60s, and they used to come out at us for holding hands in public. Don't do that, the cops will get you arrested. [00:17:40] Julie Trainum: Okay, so that was the beginning of some of those arguments you were saying? [00:17:43] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. [00:17:43] Julie Trainum: So they did not like the fact that you were much more out in your appearance? [00:17:49] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:17:49] Jimmy Flowers: They said you ruined everything that we were trying to accomplish, and we turned around and we said, well, this is 1969, and you've had since 1945 to do something, and it's time for a change, and the change is now. Well, the cops came and raided the Stonewall, and 200 of us took to the streets. Yes, there was drag queens there, there was lesbians, there was gay blacks, gay Puerto Ricans, but we were not all drag queens, let me just make that very clear. We were from all walks of life, all colors. [00:18:29] Julie Trainum: Has that been something that they've tried to state over and over, that it was just the drag queens that rioted? [00:18:36] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. [00:18:37] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:18:37] Jimmy Flowers: Even, I got to admit, even the gay press keeps on saying drag queens. It just didn't happen like that. What has happened to be to Stonewall was incidents of the raiding of bars, being put away for being gay, entrapments, license plates being taken, beating up of lesbians and gays, dead bodies of gay males being found in the Hudson River, harassment, blackmail of the gay rich because they paid off the cops because they were afraid to lose their jobs. Lesbians were being raped by plainclothes cops, beaten up, and they were forced to fight back. [00:19:25] Julie Trainum: So people, in a sense, have had their fill of the harassment and the hatred, so that when that particular bar was raided... [00:19:35] Jimmy Flowers: It wasn't just that particular bar. [00:19:37] Julie Trainum: Was it not? [00:19:38] Jimmy Flowers: It started... See, all the bars in that area was being raided like every weekend. [00:19:44] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:19:44] Jimmy Flowers: But, the Stonewall, we're the ones that came out of the Stonewall and we said, enough is enough, we're going to take the streets now. [00:19:57] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:19:58] Jimmy Flowers: And that was the word gay. And we started using the word gay. A lot of people, even some of the gay people themselves, don't like to use the word gay. They don't use the word homosexual. Well, we name ourselves gay. [00:20:13] Jimmy Flowers: Homosexuality, faggot, queer, fruit, homo, pansy, bull dyke, lesbian, all those names were labeled on us by society. The word gay, we took as being proud. And the word lesbian, as proud as being a lesbian woman. So then, then we start taking into the streets. And we started turning over police cars and we started dancing in the streets and we started yelling out gay rights now. And I remember this big black guy, about six foot four, something like that, kicked up a paddy wagon and turned it over. [00:20:59] Jimmy Flowers: And three lesbians pulled over the paddy wagons and the best fighters, I gotta admit, was the drag queens and the lesbians. And, but people like me too was there too. We were, I was the one that was underneath the paddy wagon as they were pulling the gays and lesbians into the paddy wagon, I was underneath the paddy wagon punching the cops between the legs. And then as they were going out, the lesbians, 5 �gays were running out of the paddy wagons. Jim, you were back there when I was a little girl. Well, you know, at that time, you did what you had to do. [00:21:41] Jimmy Flowers: And about how old were you at the time then? I was about 14 and a half years old, 15 years old. And there were some other gay youth there as well? And that's that one thing we all had in common. We were all young and we were all gay and lesbians. Let's stop there for just a second, okay? Yeah, all right. [00:22:03] Jimmy Flowers: As I was saying before, when they were dragging in the lesbians and gays, I was underneath the paddy wagon punching below the belt of the police officers and the lesbians and gays would run out of the paddy wagon while the cops were going out, you know? Okay, great. And then we started marching in the streets, yelling out gay rights now and this and that. And they would throw gas bombs at us and we had handkerchiefs we wrapped around our faces and we threw it back at the cops. And we was turning over the paddy wagon to the police cars. [00:22:44] Jimmy Flowers: We marched to the 10th precinct, which was the Greenwich Village Police Station. And we marched around there, started singing We Shall Overcome. And then we started marching towards out of the gay ghetto. And that's when everything started beginning. We started marching up 6th Avenue. They knew that we was gonna be on 5th Avenue to St. Patrick's because see, on 5th Avenue was St. Patrick's Cathedral and sinners of God wasn't allowed to be on 5th Avenue. [00:23:16] Julie Trainum: Bless you. [00:23:18] Jimmy Flowers: And so anyway, we started marching on 6th Avenue but we had a plan. And we all ran arm to arm, black, white, young and old. Some of us, most of us was young. And we started doing the can-can. And as we started kicking the lesbians and gays, drag queens, blacks and whites, and yes, even some atheists and Christians, we started doing the can-can and started saying gay rights now, lesbian power now. And as we kicked, the police officers backed away. They took one step back and then we started taking advantage of it. Each night, the crowd grew larger. [00:24:08] Jimmy Flowers: And as we was doing the can-can down the street of 6th Avenue, the cops, they have never faced this situation before. They were scared to death of us. That night, the crowds grew to about 1,000. And we started rowing. And then when we got to 45th Street, cut off on to 5th Avenue, the cops had the barricade of police cars and the lesbians and the gay men and the drag queens and the transvestites. And we just pushed the cars off the streets and just pushed them onto the sidewalks. And then we went right on to 5th Avenue and we started marching up. [00:25:00] Jimmy Flowers: Then they had another barricade. And then we started marching towards St. Patrick's. And as we was doing the kicking in the air and singing all sorts of things, and unite, we stand, fight back now, the cops were backing up and backing up and the crowd just grew larger and larger. [00:25:24] Jimmy Flowers: That night was 1,000 and we started holding hands and marching around St. Patrick's Day, and we started singing We Shall Overcome, and we did it all night long. And then people started saying that homosexuals is taking over the country. There was headlines in the newspapers and everything, it was on the news, and then we started protesting at City Hall. The first protest at City Hall was 1970 for the gay rights. Only 40 people showed up at that time. As the year went by, the crowd at City Hall grew larger and larger and larger. [00:26:17] Jimmy Flowers: The gay and lesbian community started uniting. At one point around 1973, the politicians and the religious groups, the Orthodox Jewish community and the Catholics saying, well there's really nothing about lesbians in the Bible, it's okay to be a lesbian. And what they were trying to do is split us apart and to make us weak, because unity there is strength. So I say to the young ones today, don't let politicians or anybody split y'all up because of politics, because we are in it together and there must be unity. [00:27:06] Jimmy Flowers: Then we started marching towards politicians and we started having sit-ins and we started having sit-ins to go into the City Hall chambers and about 100 of us or 200 of us, and we started singing We Shall Overcome each and every time there was a lesbian gay rights hearing. And then we started having the Lesbian Gay Parade, which was 1970. The very first one was 1970, and we marched from Greenwich Village to Central Park, which by the way was only 9,000 people. Excellent about that. [00:27:48] Julie Trainum: Has there been one every year then? 6 �[00:27:50] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, every one, and last year, the 25th anniversary, lesbians gays from all over the world came. There was people from Switzerland, lesbians and gays from Russia, there was lesbians and gays from Puerto Rico, from Cuba, there was lesbians and gays from Texas and Oklahoma, there was lesbians and gays from Kansas City, Philadelphia, you name it, they were all there. Gays and lesbians from Alaska. [00:28:28] Julie Trainum: How many do you think, in your opinion, were actually in attendance? [00:28:32] Jimmy Flowers: Well, later on when you see the pictures up close. The newspaper says 100,000, but the newspapers always lie when it comes to lesbians and gays marching in the streets. I estimate there was close to one million lesbians and gays, and parents of gays, and friends of gays, and lesbians and gays themselves from all walks of life, from all over the world, was marching because we had three avenues. [00:29:02] Jimmy Flowers: Excuse me, I think it's important at this point to recognize that Jimmy was honored as one of the 15 only survivors from the original Stonewall Uprising, and he was honored this past year during the 20th anniversary as one of those 15,... Oklahoma in that. [00:29:25] Julie Trainum: How many Oklahomans were also in that group? Were you the only one? [00:29:31] Jimmy Flowers: I was the only one. [00:29:33] Julie Trainum: Well, we're proud of you. Let's go ahead at this point and... [00:29:36] Jimmy Flowers: But I wasn't born in Oklahoma. [00:29:38] Julie Trainum: I understand, but we have you now. We'll go ahead and stop the film for a second so that we can get up and take a look. And what we're going to do right now is take a look at some of the mementos that Jimmy has brought. We have an array of t-shirts here, and we're going to listen a little bit about what each one... [00:29:56] Julie Trainum: Where each one came from and so on and anything else that Jimmy can tell us about it. So you want to start over there with the Lambda? [00:30:04] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. The Lambda was the first gay t-shirt that lesbians and gays wore as a symbol of lesbian gay power. There was a little bit of confusion about the Lambda bit because it stood for gay males, but there was a little confusion about that too as well. [00:30:23] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:30:24] Jimmy Flowers: So this was the first lesbian gay t-shirt even though there was some confusion. This one here was about Reagan's time where two guys and we took his slogan and we said breathe my lips and there's two guys kissing. Also we started using slogans like cruise men not missiles. Then there was the gay independent democrats. We started registering people to vote and I have myself registered in New York City over 10,000 lesbians and gay voters, all democrats. [00:31:03] Julie Trainum: So you helped to get people signed up to register to vote? [00:31:05] Jimmy Flowers: Oh yes I did. [00:31:06] Julie Trainum: Excellent. [00:31:07] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:31:08] Jimmy Flowers: This is the t-shirt of the coalition. This was the original lesbian gay flag which I designed it and a lesbian woman made the flag. [00:31:20] Julie Trainum: Cool. [00:31:21] Jimmy Flowers: It was June 1st, 1976. That was the symbol, the first original lesbian gay flag. It stands for unity. This here was the first march on Washington D.C. national wise. There was other marches besides that. There was Madison Society had a group in 1966 marching in front of the White House, but this 7 �was the first national march on Washington with Harvey Milk's name. Then later on, this picture here of me, 1976, I had a t-shirt that said I'm a gay American. And that there came out in one of the gay newspapers. [00:32:10] Julie Trainum: Great. [00:32:11] Jimmy Flowers: This here, later on, there was words mixed up so we started using, we realized that some lesbians wanted to be called lesbians and some wanted to be called gay. So to make everybody happy, we decided to use the word gay and lesbian independent democrats. [00:32:31] Julie Trainum: Great. [00:32:33] Jimmy Flowers: And then here was the first picture of the first protest march at City Hall in 1970. Then comes the American Cypriot Union book around 1975. Then I got a letter from the White House, from Jimmy Carter, from the assistants. And then around 1980, I had a discrimination case against Victor Gonthown, DC-37 in New York, which sexual orientation was passed on AFCIO Union, which they took my case on, which I'm very proud of that. [00:33:18] Julie Trainum: Okay, let me just get kind of a pan shot of some of these things and a view of all the goodies that we have. [00:33:24] Jimmy Flowers: Well, this one, this one here was taken in 1976, I'm a gay American. This one here with the lesbian gay flag, the original one, in front of St. Patrick's Day, saying that we are children of God too. This one here was the first print of the original lesbian gay flag which stands for unity. [00:33:53] Julie Trainum: I like that theme a lot. I like that theme. [00:33:57] Jimmy Flowers: Then here's a pamphlet that we tried to pass in New York City. I was kicked out of a restaurant for wearing a gay t-shirt and they took my case to the human rights, which I won the first gay case in human rights back in 1978. And finally won on paper. [00:34:26] Julie Trainum: Can you tell us a little bit about the Stonewall sash that you're wearing? [00:34:31] Jimmy Flowers: Well, around 1979, Ed Murphy, one of the people in Stonewall, he was a door bouncer at the Stonewall, gave all of these banners to all the Stonewall people that was there. And I've had it since 19... [00:34:49] Jimmy Flowers: 78 something. It was purple and gold, but now it's turning into pink and gold. [00:35:04] Julie Trainum: Tell us a little about your hat. [00:35:05] Jimmy Flowers: Well, my hat has got all the buttons on it about AIDS, be safe, about lesbian and gay rights, civil rights. I'll have a talk and take it off and show you. Boycott homophobia, remember the quilt, silent equals death, stop AIDS, fight back, act up. This is the newest one, Stonewall 25, keep on marching. This symbol of AIDS awareness and over here it says gay rights are civil rights. [00:35:50] Julie Trainum: I love that one. Okay, we need to go ahead and end up this portion. [00:35:55] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. [00:35:56] Julie Trainum: And so what I will do real quick is to, these are pictures of the 25th anniversary of Stonewall. [00:36:03] Jimmy Flowers: Right here. [00:36:04] Julie Trainum: That we're taking in June of this year and some fabulous buttons. [00:36:07] Jimmy Flowers: This one here is I Am All of Us, Harvey Milk. That was printed in 1979. This one here was the first gay button and this was the second one, 1970 and 1970. And then all the other buttons came afterwards. And then we even had a button, boyfriend wanted no experience necessary. Homophobia is a social disease. Then we had this Harvey Milk riot which I will explain later what really happened on that day. 8 �And then we had the pink triangle which gays and lesbians were forced to wear during World War II as in the prisons. [00:36:58] Jimmy Flowers: The gay Jewish, I don't have here a button, but if you was gay and Jewish you wore a yellow and pink star. This one here to sign to the born again Christians. [00:37:10] Julie Trainum: Born again gay. [00:37:11] Jimmy Flowers: Born again gay. [00:37:12] Julie Trainum: Very nice. [00:37:12] Jimmy Flowers: And then there's the teddy bear here with the symbol of the male symbol of gay men. And then we have here of a cat with the lesbian symbol here on the cat. And then we had over here the pink triangle, fight for lesbian gay liberation. And then there was Gay Teachers Unite which came out about 1972. [00:37:38] Julie Trainum: Wow, that's great. We're going to go ahead and end up today's segment. And in a few days we'll get back together and take another look at the remaining memorabilia and finish up Jimmy's story. Hi Jimmy, this is December the 19th and we're back to complete hopefully our session on some of the gay history that you're very familiar with. I think we left off beginning to talk about Stonewall 25 that happened here just last June of 1994. Go ahead if you would and give us your view of what happened last June and what you saw and just go from there. [00:38:19] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, it was really beautiful. I found the George Segal statue was put up in the park which was two women and two men holding an armed arm in the park. [00:38:33] Julie Trainum: Was he the sculptor? [00:38:34] Jimmy Flowers: He was George Segal, yeah. It went through the United States and then ended up at Sheridan Square which is in Greenwich Village. And I was part of that. A lot of people was at that time in 1977 when they built the statues of two men and two women holding hands in the park. The Italians got upset and the religious right got upset. Left? [00:39:07] Julie Trainum: Right. [00:39:07] Jimmy Flowers: Right. And they got upset all about the statues. But all there is is that two women is holding arm to arm sitting on the park bench and two guys standing up holding each other with love. Well, I was glad to see that because I collected over 15,000 signatures for those statues. Wow. But I wasn't the only one. Let me put that very clear. I wasn't the only person that was doing it. [00:39:40] Julie Trainum: When did you do this project? [00:39:42] Jimmy Flowers: This was 1977-78. [00:39:44] Julie Trainum: And so you now saw them in the... [00:39:47] Jimmy Flowers: I saw them in the park at Sheridan Square which I was very proud of. [00:39:51] Jimmy Flowers: Finally they got it there. [00:39:54] Jimmy Flowers: Through court battles. They called it freedom of speech. When you show affection towards the same sex. So we used the expression freedom of speech. [00:40:06] Jimmy Flowers: Also, on the day of the parade, which was beautiful, they took up 5th Avenue, 6th Avenue, and also 1st Avenue from the United Nations building. From the United Nations building, there was lesbians and gays from all over the world. From Japan, from China, from Russia, from Italy, from Oklahoma, Texas, Ohio, Philadelphia, California, Boston, Connecticut, Africa. There was lesbians and gays from Switzerland, Italy, you name it, they were there. [00:40:51] Julie Trainum: Sounds like that was the place to get a pen pal. 9 �[00:40:53] Jimmy Flowers: It was beautiful. And the Stonewall led the whole parade, all 18 of us, that was led from the original Stonewall veterans, they called us. I didn't know I was a veteran until the 25th. But, also, from all over the world, over 25,000 ACT UP members marched up 5th Avenue, in front of St. Patrick's Metro, and passed there. And they assembled there, and they started singing, We Shall Overcome. And, of course, then they started marching again. [00:41:31] Jimmy Flowers: On 6th Avenue, over 66,000 lesbians from all over the country, in the United States, and parts of the other world, marched up 6th Avenue to Central Park. We arrived at the park about approximately 11.30am. At 6.30pm, they were still coming into the park, and the parade has not ended. The parade ended coming into the park around 9pm. So, the newspapers always lie about how many numbers there is, especially when it comes to lesbians and gays marching. The newspaper says 100,000, but that's in the pig's eye. It's a lie. [00:42:24] Jimmy Flowers: So, anyway, I, X-Men, and so did a lot of lesbians and gays that was there. XMen, there was 1 million lesbians and gays. We also had straights and gays, women for gay rights, we had parents for gay rights, we had grandmothers marching for gay rights. We had a few members from Mattachine Society that was in it for 36 years, marched too as well. There was about 5 people, I remember, from Mattachine, and they were carrying a sign, 36 years, of 2 women and 1 gay man. That was, as I can remember, from Mattachine Society that was marching. [00:43:16] Julie Trainum: So, that's 36 years of trying to fight for gay rights? [00:43:19] Jimmy Flowers: Oh, that's for gay rights. Okay. From up to last year. Okay. But, there was other gay movements before then. In 1920, Oscar Wilde in England, the case of Oscar Wilde, which by the way, the gay rights bill over there was passed about 45, 40 years ago. And, of course, I can turn around to the religious groups and tell them that see, England did not fall apart. And, the reason, one of the reasons why Queen Elizabeth I, there was no law against lesbianism, but there was laws against gay men. [00:44:06] Jimmy Flowers: Because Queen Elizabeth I believed that women don't do such things. So, therefore, there was no law against being a lesbian, only against being a gay male. Because men do do those types of things. Right. Okay. That's what they said. And, we all know that's a lie. Also, going back, now we're going to go back to 1970, 73. [00:44:37] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:44:37] Jimmy Flowers: 1970 was the Gay Activist Alliance. After we did the Stonewall, we started realizing we must stop fighting in the streets. And, start protesting peacefully and ordinarily matter. [00:44:48] Jimmy Flowers: We did, sometimes we had kiss-ins, holding hands, walking the streets, but by groups. Sometimes two or three hundred would have a kiss-in on the steps of St. Patrick's or on the steps of City Hall to show the public that here we are, we're not going to hide our affection, our love, and our tenderness to be towards each other. Because, see, gay is not just sex, as most people think that it is. Being a lesbian or being gay is not sex, it's the way of life, it's the way of love, it's the way you were born, it's the way you are. [00:45:31] Jimmy Flowers: And we are human beings and children of God just as well as anybody else. There's been Michelangelo that was gay, Jonathan and David, Einstein, and I can go down the list, which will take hours. [00:45:44] Julie Trainum: One of my favorite posters, have you seen it, is depicting all of the people, so many of the people, down through history. And it's just crowded with faces, it's really nice to see. [00:45:59] Jimmy Flowers: I love that poster. [00:45:59] Julie Trainum: Creative, talented. Very much so. [00:46:02] Jimmy Flowers: And also there was Jim Levin, Jim Levin was the gay lawyer who went around mostly towards me because I always seemed to get into trouble. Mostly because of the mouth. Not that I just stood up for what I believed in, but I got my first job in 1971 as a construction worker working on highways cleaning. And the other guys, they had black power on their helmet, kiss me I'm Italian, kiss me I'm Italian. So what I did on my hard hat, helmet, is put gay power on my helmet. 10 �[00:46:43] Jimmy Flowers: But that was totally a different story when it came to the union, D.C. 37, Victor Garfield. And then they tried to make separate bathrooms. A gay men's bathroom and a gay straight men's bathroom. And I fought that because to me that's discrimination, that's like a war fountain for whites and a war fountain for blacks. And to me that is discrimination. So anyway, also in their locker rooms, in their lockers, they had pictures of nude women. So what I did, to be myself, I put up a picture of a nude man on my locker inside my locker. [00:47:28] Jimmy Flowers: And of course that was totally a different story. At that time I had a boyfriend I was going to study with for two years. And their wives and their girlfriends came and picked up the guys from work and they hugged and kissed. You know, hello. So my boyfriend came up and we hugged and he kissed me. And brother, let me tell you, hell just broke loose. So they tried to fire me. And I went to the human rights, filed a complaint, went to D.C. 37 and filed a complaint with Victor Garfield to hit the union. The big cheese there. [00:48:13] Jimmy Flowers: And he says, we're going too far for lesbian gay rights. I said, what do you mean too far? We just want equal rights just like anybody else. And he says, well you're just going too far. And I said, no we're not. So Jim Levin was my lawyer again after a couple of cases I had. Because every time I hear or see something wrong I speak up. Then came the gay rights bill. Mostly that got me into a lot of trouble. Because I always speak up when I see or hear something wrong. Then came 1973, I believe. [00:48:55] Jimmy Flowers: The mental psychiatrists and therapists from all over the country came to New York and they were having a conference. And their discussion was, what are we going to do about these homosexuals in America? And at that time, the gay movement was just beginning to get on its high pit. [00:49:18] Julie Trainum: So it wasn't what can we do for the gay community, it was what are we going to do about? [00:49:22] Jimmy Flowers: About. About, alright. About the homosexuals in America. Mostly, they were concerned mostly of gay males. Don't ask me why, that's the way they did it. So we had a plan to have lesbians and gays to march together outside of the conference building. Which was held on 34th Street, Madison Square Garden. [00:49:49] Jimmy Flowers: And we, as we were protesting outside, about five to six hundred lesbians and gay therapists and psychiatrists came out of the closet at that time, at the conference, and the rest of the people that were inside, the so-called straight people, the heads that were saying what we were going to do about these homosexuals in America, that they're going too far, and that there decided, when they came out, psychiatrists and therapists came out, which shocked the living heck out of them, they decided then and there that it was not an illness, it was not a sickness. [00:50:38] Jimmy Flowers: This, I believe, was back in 1973. I'm not exactly sure on the exact date, but it's about there. So mental illness is not social disease or mental disease or mental order or anything like that, what they thought in the old days. And we're surely not sinners of God, we're children of God as well as anybody else. And also, and then we started protesting the city council people. The first one was 1970, with 30 people. Each year, the crowd grew bigger and bigger. [00:51:21] Julie Trainum: What types of issues did you bring before the council? [00:51:23] Jimmy Flowers: Equal rights in housing, jobs, unemployment, public accommodations, and we tried to put in marriages, lesbian and gay marriages, but that didn't go through. But we got jobs, housing, public accommodations in those orders. [00:51:44] Julie Trainum: How long did that take? That took from 1970 to 1986. [00:51:46] Jimmy Flowers: And that's in New York City? [00:51:53] Julie Trainum: That's in New York City. [00:51:55] Jimmy Flowers: And each year, the protests marched because we kept on insisting. So every six months, we were at City Hall protesting, and each time, the crowd grew larger and larger and larger. In 1986, we started registering, around 1980, we started registering lesbians and gays. We went to the bars, we went to the bathhouses, we went to the backroom bars, we went to the piers, we went wherever lesbians and gays went, we went there. 11 �[00:52:27] Julie Trainum: Registering at the bar? [00:52:29] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. And I, myself, registered over 10,000 lesbians and gays through the bars, through the backrooms, through the lesbian bars. And by the way, I was the first gay male to enter a lesbian and gay bar. Because at that time, lesbians wanted to keep to themselves because a lot of straight guys used to come in and harass them all the time, and it was a lot of trouble. [00:52:57] Jimmy Flowers: So Betty Santora, Eleanor Cooper, they were part of the group, and they said, Look, he's here trying to get signatures and register people to vote, and he's here for your cause as well as for ours. We're supposed to be together and be united. So I was the first male that ever went to a lesbian bar. [00:53:18] Julie Trainum: How'd that feel? [00:53:19] Jimmy Flowers: I felt terrific. You know, most likely, I got along with lesbians better than I did with gay males. I don't know why, but it just happens. There was a joke going around about me, that I was a lesbian trapped in a gay man's body. [00:53:37] Julie Trainum: Did you find that a compliment or not a compliment? [00:53:42] Jimmy Flowers: Well, at the time, I felt both. It was a compliment and it was an insult. But now I think it's a compliment. Then around 19, we started protesting the White House. 1971, we started putting paths. About 100 of us started marching to Washington on foot. [00:54:13] Julie Trainum: You thought you would tell Mr. Nixon a thing or two? [00:54:15] Jimmy Flowers: We thought we would, yeah. [00:54:16] Julie Trainum: How'd that go? [00:54:18] Jimmy Flowers: Well, as we passed each state, the crowd grew larger and larger. When we got to Washington, D.C., finally, it took about almost a week or so. We had rain and everything, and through the sun and everything. And people, as we were walking, with signs and paths on them, the crowd grew to 1,000. [00:54:43] Jimmy Flowers: from 100 from New York and then as we went to Washington they grew to 1,000. But I also got to say, too, there was other protest march back in 1966 by a group of about 25 to 30 lesbians and gay males from Mattachine Society. It wasn't the first march, but it wasn't a national march. The first national march on Washington from the country, the United States, was 1979, then again 1987, and then 1990, a few years later. [00:55:29] Julie Trainum: Early 90s. [00:55:30] Jimmy Flowers: Early 90s. [00:55:31] Julie Trainum: Sure. [00:55:33] Jimmy Flowers: The first one was sensational. We had the first march on Washington was over 500,000 lesbians and gays. The second one was over 50,000 lesbians and gays. Then they estimate the last one that we had was close to over a million lesbians and gays in Washington, even though the newspaper says 50,000 marched. Some said 40,000. Some of the media said 30,000, but if you saw the march yourself and you saw the crowd, you would know that there was five times more than that. [00:56:17] Julie Trainum: I was there. There was a million, believe me. [00:56:19] Julie Trainum: Have you been seeing more gay young people in the marches and parades? Jimmy, did you want to go ahead and continue with what was happening there in the late 70s and 80s? [00:56:31] Jimmy Flowers: Well, around 1976, Anita Bryant started a campaign against lesbians and gay rights, not only in one state in Florida, which passed an anti-gay lesbian rights bill, but then she started campaigning throughout the country. A lot of lesbians and gays, even movie stars and actors, got upset with her because most of her people that was working with her were gay people. That's number one. Number two, she 12 �was actually slapping people in the face that we wasn't human, we wasn't children of God, and we wasn't Americans and everything like that. [00:57:14] Jimmy Flowers: She was trying to get the religious groups to come out and say we are not. But I must say, and I also was one of the people that threw a fruit pie in her face. I was upset, I was angry, and I am American, a gay one, I'm proud of it. The Constitution of the United States says we the people, not we the blacks, not we the straights, not we the women, not we the lesbians and gays, but we the people. And even politicians forget what the Constitution says. And we have to remember that, that we are the people as well. [00:58:00] Jimmy Flowers: And we are just as human beings as anybody else. Because if you cut my wrist, I will bleed red blood just like anyone else. And I also believe that I was born gay, not made. Also, I would like to say that to black youth of America, that be proud of being gay. Don't be ashamed. Because in the 70s, if you was gay and black, their own race said that they were a disgrace to their race because they were black. But that's not true. Be proud to be gay, be proud to be black, and be proud to be Christian and gay or lesbians. [00:58:45] Jimmy Flowers: We must stand in unity and don't let politicians or religion try to split us up. Like, for instance, at City Hall, and I also heard it here at City Hall in Oklahoma, that, oh well, there's nothing against lesbians in the Bible. But they also forget Joan of Arc was burned to the stake because she was a lesbian. And they also forget about that, that's the Roman Catholics. There's a lot of things that in the Bible you can also prove. [00:59:19] Jimmy Flowers: If you put 20 people in the room, and each one of them read the Bible, you will find you get 20 different opinions of what the Bible says. So therefore, should we put a woman down because she's wearing a red dress? That's in the Bible. You know, they said, thy shall not kill. But yet, the Orthodox Jewish people, back in 1986, asked for the death penalty for being gay. Even the gay community, the Jewish gay community, got upset. And all, at the same time, in City Hall, we all stood up. [01:00:01] Jimmy Flowers: Black gays, Jewish gays, Christian gays, gay atheists, we all stood up and we yelled out, Hai Hitler to them. [01:00:10] Jimmy Flowers: That was the most insulting thing to them. They all got up, all the Orthodox Jewish community walked up and out of City Hall. And we applauded and we yelled out hallelujah, you know. [01:00:25] Julie Trainum: What are some of the things that you see that divide the gay community? [01:00:30] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, the money bed should not divide the community. The poor, middle class, and the rich. We must work together. Young, old, woman, man, black, and white. There must be unity. Because in numbers there is strength. Martin Luther King said one thing, In unity we have strength, divided we will fall. That's what Martin Luther King said. And we have to remember those words. Because so far what I have seen, we are divided now. But we have to start getting together. [01:01:12] Jimmy Flowers: Because sometimes I feel like I'm reliving the 70s and the 80s all over again right here in Oklahoma. I say to the youth of America, stand up, be proud, and don't let people push you down because you're simply a lesbian or gay or bisexual. Be proud of what you are. Because it's not just sex, it's a wave of life, and it's a wave of human sexuality. I believe that if human sexuality is taught at an early age, you will not have all this hang up about sex, about divorce, about women and men, about gay and lesbians and bisexuality. [01:02:00] Jimmy Flowers: I don't feel that there will be so much uptightness if people and children are taught at an early age about human sexuality and let them be themselves as they grow up. But be taught the right way. Some of us, we learned the hard way. And I must say, we may have all different ways of doing things, we may have all different ideas, we may have all different faiths. But when we step outside and protest peacefully, hand in hand, number one, we must be in unity and we must be in numbers. That's 65 people marching. [01:02:50] Jimmy Flowers: Because politicians, when they look out that window, they say, oh it's only 65, because they're thinking of voters. But if they see 200, 300, 5,000, or 10,000, or even 1 million people out there, they're going to wake up and they say, oh, voters, we better shape up or we're going to get shipped out. So therefore, I say, register the vote when you're 18. Put your money where your mouth is and tell it like it is. Go out there and be peaceful. March peaceful. Have kiss-ins, because there's no law against kissing of the same sex. 13 �[01:03:34] Jimmy Flowers: There is no law against people of two women holding hands, or two men holding hands. So we can easily have kiss-ins, walk hand in hand, surrounding city hall, singing We Shall Overcome. That would get them more anything. They would wake up. That's what we should be doing. And also to educate society that we're here to stay and we're not going away. Lesbians and gays have been here for the longest time. And since the time began, we're going to be here now, until the end of time. [01:04:13] Julie Trainum: Because gay young people, and actually any young person, has a whole lot more to face these days than we did 20 years ago or so, what types of messages would you give kids today when they look at their health and safety? [01:04:29] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, be safe. Use condoms. There's different ways of making love without sexual intercourse. That goes for male or female. There's touching, there's feeling, there's holding, there's caressing. There's more ways of making love without intercourse. And if you do have it, get a checkup. Play safe. Use condoms. Or don't use condoms, but be safe with sass. And have checkups. That's what I would say to the youth of America. [01:05:07] Jimmy Flowers: to play safe and also tell the government there must be a cure of AIDS now. Not tomorrow, not ten years from now, but now. Over 40 or 50 million people throughout the world have AIDS. And every day the numbers are growing and growing. And mostly now the young heterosexual community are getting them. And we have to reach out towards them. But just because you're HIV does not make you less of a woman, just because you're HIV does not make you less of a man, or gay, or straight, or black, or white. Be proud of those issues. Be proud of being black. [01:05:59] Jimmy Flowers: Don't let no one say, well, you're HIV now. Now keep silence, because silence to me equals death. It's time to act up peacefully and out there to march and let the politicians know that we are here and we're not going to take it no more. Did you participate in the AIDS walk this past year? Yes, I did. Can you tell us about that? Well, I carried the sign. I got to admit, the crowd was much bigger in Oklahoma than last year. Last year there was only 65 and I was sort of a little bit upset about it. [01:06:37] Jimmy Flowers: And I got a little emotional and a little angry and I went back to those groups and I told them, shame, shame on you for not being at the walk. This year we had close to 150 or 200 people. What I hear in Oklahoma, that was great. But I like to see next year 1,000 people out there marching. Lesbians and gays. Straight people. Parents of gays. [01:07:05] Jimmy Flowers: And even Christians can get AIDS. Yeah, I just wanted to mention that because sometimes they say they're Christian and there was one guy, I won't mention no names, he was going with a woman every day and then all of a sudden with another woman and I told him, I tried to get him condoms and I gave him brochures and he said, well his minister told him it was a gay disease. And I said, no it is not a gay disease. It's a human disease. And which our own government has lied about it. The blood banks have lied about it. [01:07:45] Jimmy Flowers: The Christians tried to put the blame on the gay, that it was God's punishment to gay people. AIDS is man-made. Two scientists already came out and made a statement that in 1969 they developed AIDS as German warfare. Now this was on television because I watch a lot of talk shows. There's also, they were experiment on green monkeys. And in Africa, their food supplies is green monkeys that they eat because of lack of food. Throughout the country, in Africa alone, 10 million plus has AIDS. Mostly heterosexuals. In this country it hit the gay population. [01:08:37] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, that's true at first. But in other parts of the world, Russia, Japan, China, Switzerland, Germany, East Germany, West Germany, also Africa, all the other countries it hit the heterosexuals. But somehow the gays get the blame for it. Don't ask me why, I don't know why. But it's time now to come out and not to do it violently, but peacefully protest by numbers. I've been asked that question quite a lot. And my answer is, no, I will not do anything differently. [01:09:30] Jimmy Flowers: Because I believe very strongly that I was born gay, not made, and I also believe in God, and I also believe in Jesus. And I believe in a God of love, not a God of hate. I also believe that Jesus preached love in the Ten Commandments, if you looked at it. It does not say, thy shall not be a homosexual. Which in 1976, some of the religious groups wanted to bring Eleventh Commandment on the Ten Commandments. And I was doing the Neal O'Brien situation. Which, by the way, I was one of the people that threw a fruit pie at the Neal O'Brien's face. 14 �[01:10:22] Jimmy Flowers: And she forgave me. [01:10:25] Julie Trainum: How do you know she forgave you? [01:10:27] Jimmy Flowers: Because she said it on television that she forgives me. [01:10:30] Julie Trainum: I'm glad you brought that up again because a lot of the younger people may not remember who Anita O'Brien is. [01:10:35] Jimmy Flowers: Well, Anita O'Brien was the one that was doing the commercials, and she was a singer, and a blogger. [01:10:43] Julie Trainum: But before that, wasn't she like a Miss America or some type like that? [01:10:47] Jimmy Flowers: She came in second place. [01:10:49] Julie Trainum: Okay, well it makes her like this all-American type, and people are going to maybe listen to her. And so then she went into entertainment. [01:10:56] Jimmy Flowers: Well, I can say this. We're all Americans here. No matter what color, what background, if you're a woman, if you're a man, young, old, black and white, of race. We're all Americans here. But if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, the only Americans here that's true Americans is the American Indians. I mean, let's face it. You know, white men brought the diseases over from Europe. [01:11:26] Jimmy Flowers: If these diseases, if they would think, if you think about this, number one, if the government could spend $2.3 billion on one bomb that would destroy countries and life, human life, from all walks of life. Why can't they spend, and we've got enough weapons and bombs and airplanes to destroy this world 20 times over, if not more. It is now time to put an end to all diseases and put the money together and have all the scientists throughout the world in this country. And I'm not just talking about AIDS. I'm talking about diabetes. [01:12:11] Jimmy Flowers: I'm talking about heart trouble or cancer and liver problems. If they will find and put their money to save human life instead of destroying human life, I'll bet you, ten to one, we will be much happier. Because in the Constitution of the United States too, it says, life, liberty, and presumed happiness. And so far, I really haven't seen much of that. And I'm sure a lot of others haven't either. [01:12:43] Julie Trainum: But... [01:12:43] Julie Trainum: Okay, let me stop there for a second. [01:12:45] Julie Trainum: Stand by, stand by. We're looking at some of the things that Jimmy brought with him. Just kind of show real quick a few of these items. And let's go back over here to the purple outfit. Tell us what this is and when you wore it. [01:13:04] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. This was part of my go-go outfit. I was a go-go boy. [01:13:09] Julie Trainum: What is that again? You're a dancer. [01:13:09] Julie Trainum: And I also was a go-go boy at [01:13:11] Jimmy Flowers: the Gay Activist Alliance of New York City in the firehouse of GAA and at the Stonewall and at the Church of the Beloved Disciples, which was the first gay church in 1970 to raise money for the Church of the Beloved Disciples. [01:13:41] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:13:42] Jimmy Flowers: And also, at that time, they called them hot pants. And that was part... I had black boots and a black cowboy hat and with the saccadone lights. That was part of my outfit. [01:13:55] Julie Trainum: Okay, great. And let's go back over here to this T-shirt here. This is really neat. 15 �[01:14:02] Jimmy Flowers: Well, I was the marshal of the... In 1983, one of the marshals, which is one of the grand marshals of the... You were chosen to be one of the persons that was involved in Stonewall and they called you a grand marshal. [01:14:28] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:29] Jimmy Flowers: And this is the T-shirt from the 25th anniversary of Stonewall, which Stonewall would include all lesbians and gays from all over the world. [01:14:40] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:40] Jimmy Flowers: And marched on the United Nations building to show that we want lesbian and gay rights throughout the world. [01:14:49] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:50] Julie Trainum: And was this the Marshall T-shirt you were studying? [01:14:54] Julie Trainum: Yeah. [01:14:54] Jimmy Flowers: Which was 1983. [01:14:57] Julie Trainum: That's great. Okay. [01:15:01] Julie Trainum: And this banner? [01:15:02] Jimmy Flowers: That's the Stonewall banner which was given to me by Ed Murphy in late 70s. We all got one. As you see it's turning pink, but it was purple and gold. Lavender and purple and white is the lesbian and gay colors. [01:15:21] Julie Trainum: Okay. Great. Let's move over here and take a look at some of these buttons you have here. [01:15:28] Jimmy Flowers: Well, this shows you here in New York City in 1988. This was in the 80s. The gay 90s are coming. This here is the P flag. [01:15:42] Jimmy Flowers: This was the symbol for gay black of Africans, America, Americans. [01:15:50] Jimmy Flowers: This was the button on March of 87 to the White House. And this button here was printed in 1971, gay love, it's the real thing. This here was printed in 1970, I'm a man's man. This here is lesbian gay vote 89. And this was the first march in 1979 on Washington, National March. This is a button that says I support lesbian gay rights. This button here is the quilt, the names of the project. And this here says fight for lesbian gay rights, liberation. And you see the fist in the air means power to the people. [01:16:43] Julie Trainum: You told me one time how many buttons you actually collected when you had all of them. Do you remember how many? [01:16:48] Jimmy Flowers: Oh, I remember how many. Yes, definitely. Before I left New York in 89, I donated over 2,000 lesbian gay buttons to the Lesbian Gay Community Center. I also donated over 1,500 lesbian gay books that was printed from the 50s and 60s to the Lesbian Gay Community Center and the original lesbian gay flag. [01:17:14] Julie Trainum: What I'd like to do is just to get you to summarize, if you would, some of the ideas that you have about what you'd like to see happen in Tulsa. [01:17:25] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, I'd like to see Oklahoma wake up and smell the flowers. And also to see more unity instead of more divided. The hungry power should stop the dividing of lesbians and gays and young gays and older gays and black gays and lesbian black gays. What I am seeing now is what I feel like sometimes I'm reliving the 70s and the 80s all over again. What I'd like to see is more unity among all of us. The young, the old, the black, the white, and even some of the straight people in the community to get involved. 16 �[01:18:14] Jimmy Flowers: And also get the politicians to wake up and realize that we are here, we're not going away, we're going to be out there marching. But I insist, let's march peacefully, no violence. We must do it in unity. Once we step outside of the door, we must show numbers, unity, and strength. And let the politicians and the media and the Christians know that we mean business. That we are Americans and we're human beings and we are children of God. And we're just like anybody else. [01:19:04] Jimmy Flowers: We come from poor to black to rich, middle class, upper class, or lower class, and even homeless people. There are homeless people out there who has HIV and AIDS and they're not hardly getting no help at all. There's people from all over here that we have to educate the politicians that it's not a gay disease. It's a human disease and we must put a stop to it now. I say to the gay youth, come out, be proud, and be careful, and play safe. Show affection, be yourselves, and start marching. [01:19:54] Julie Trainum: Thanks, Jim. 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data VHS Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour 20 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [c. 2000] The Jimmy Flowers Story Subject The topic of the resource Jimmy Flowers Interview for Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity Description An account of the resource From Julie Tucker - Trainum, August 2019 - Jimmy Flowers was one of the very first members of the AIDS Coalition in Tulsa. He was a young man when he was part of Stonewall and in his interview he talks about Stonewall. Jimmy died in the mid 2000s. He was interviewed so we could share his story at the YST support group "Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimmy Flowers, Julie Tucker-Trainum, Youth Services of Tulsa, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Interview was conducted in 1999 or 2000 1999 2000 AIDS AIDS Coalition of Tulsa HIV interview Jimmy Flowers Julie Tucker-Trainum OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Stonewall transcript Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity video Youth Services of Tulsa YST