3 20 43 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/9c370c2ade14307e6a1b7cac51fd997a.mp4 8c86d9871f18be29287a1c8d06288d8e https://history.okeq.org/files/original/7c5e5db49ba8b85363ee55444f01e96e.pdf db35a189d829027f639da2f67c286749 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: Jan 16, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video, February 28, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Summary In this engaging conversation, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their personal journeys, highlighting their experiences growing up in Oklahoma and navigating their identities as members of the LGBTQ+ community. Marcy recounts her childhood in Tulsa, her education at Oklahoma Christian College, and her early awareness of her sexual orientation. She reflects on the challenges faced by LGBTQ+ individuals in a conservative environment, including the need for stealth and the importance of finding community. Sue, on the other hand, shares her upbringing in Ponca City, her academic journey at OSU, and the pivotal moment when she realized her feelings for her best friend. Both women discuss their relationships, the evolution of their identities, and the significance of community support in their lives. As they delve deeper into their experiences, Marcy and Sue recount their involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights and the development of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. They reflect on the challenges of coming out to their families, the societal pressures they faced, and the importance of creating a safe space for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. Their stories are filled with humor, resilience, and a sense of belonging, showcasing the power of love and community in overcoming adversity. In this episode, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their inspiring journey of establishing a community center for the 2 �LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They recount the grassroots efforts that began in the late 1980s, during the AIDS crisis, when they faced skepticism and pushback from within their own community. Despite the challenges, they successfully organized fundraising events, such as house parties and the Wild Hearts Ball, to raise awareness and funds. Their determination led to significant milestones, including securing a $10,000 grant from a New York foundation and eventually purchasing a permanent space for their community center, which became a hub for support, celebration, and activism. The conversation highlights the importance of physical spaces for community gathering, especially in a time when virtual connections are prevalent. Marcy and Sue emphasize the need for ongoing support and engagement within the community, particularly in light of recent political challenges. They reflect on the center's role in pivotal moments for LGBTQ+ rights, including the legalization of same-sex marriage and the repeal of discriminatory laws. Their message is clear: maintaining a physical home for the community is essential for fostering connection, support, and resilience against adversity. Keywords LGBTQ+, Tulsa, Oklahomans for Human Rights, coming out, community support, Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, personal stories, Marcy Smith, Sue Welch, LGBTQ+ history, LGBTQ+ community, Tulsa, fundraising, community center, activism, AIDS crisis, grassroots efforts, Wild Hearts Ball, same-sex marriage, community support Takeaways        "I knew pretty early probably 10 or 11 years of age." "You just find your people and can do things." "It was kind of a cover, right?" "I felt like I was living in the 1950s." "It was a pivotal thing to see that." "I think they were upset that they were having to deal with it." "My family has always been very progressive, very liberal." 3 � "We moved into a duplex that I had previously moved into."  "We developed a campaign for a permanent visible presence."  "It was fantastic because I think we had such a large group." It was a very grassroots campaign, one person at a time.  We had to prove ourselves first before getting large donations.  We wanted to bring disparate groups together behind the same cause.  The community bought into this; it was a beautiful thing.  We had to create a physical space for gathering and support. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 01:16 Marcy's Childhood and Education 12:10 Sue's Upbringing and Early Relationships 24:00 Finding Community in Tulsa 38:55 Coming Out to Family and Friends 46:58 Involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights 48:21 Grassroots Beginnings: Building Support 52:28 Creating Community Events for Fundraising 01:00:10 Challenges and Triumphs in Fundraising 01:08:50 Finding a Permanent Home for the Center 01:18:31 The Grand Opening and Community Impact 01:25:42 Reflections on Community and Future Challenges ______________________________________________________________________ 4 �Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Oral History Interview Jan 16, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today's date is Friday, January the 16th, 2026, at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma. And we have Marcy Smith and Sue Welch. For our archival purposes, would you please give us your name, your age as today's date. Marcy Smith: Me, Marcy Smith, 62, gonna be 63 this year. Sue Welch: Sue Welch, 64. Toby Jenkins: Joining me in the interview today is the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Dennis R. Neill, and Amanda Thompson, who is the archivist at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, which houses the Nancy and Joe MacDonald Rainbow Library [where this interview is being conducted]. Marcy, tell us a little bit about your childhood and your family. When were you born? Marcy Smith: October 10th, 1963, right here in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: What hospital? Marcy Smith: Well, I thought I was born in St. John, but recently, I found out I was born in Hillcrest. Toby Jenkins: And so your family was from Tulsa? Marcy Smith: Yes, my mom's family eventually was from Tulsa, but they had spent some time in Texas for quite some time. And then my dad was a sales rep for Skelly Oil Company and moved around a lot. I was born in Tulsa, and then 11 months later, my sister Karen was born in Joplin. And then 18 months after that, my sister Cindy was born in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Then we hung out in Arkansas for a little bit and then came back to Tulsa, so yeah. Toby Jenkins: Did you go to school? Marcy Smith: Went to- yes, went to elementary school, where the center now is for- at 11th and Utica, went to Jefferson Elementary School, which does not exist anymore, because of the center now, so. Toby Jenkins: The center for those with physical challenged? Marcy Smith: Yes, yes, not Oklahomans for Equality Center. 5 �Marcy Smith: So went to school there, and then we moved way out south in 1971 to Jenks, which was- Woodland Hills Mall didn't even exist. That 71st and Memorial, it was a gravel road still. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and it was called Jenks USA. Marcy Smith: That's right, it was Jenks USA, and it was way the heck out there. So we moved out to Jenks and then finished school at Jenks High School, and thenToby Jenkins: And what year did you graduate? Marcy Smith: Graduated 1982. Toby Jenkins: 1982. Marcy Smith: Then went toToby Jenkins: How many were in your graduating class at Jenks? Marcy Smith: I think there were 482 people, something like that, yeah. And then went to Oklahoma Christian College for a couple of years. Toby Jenkins: Which is locatedMarcy Smith: In Edmond, Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Marcy Smith: Still is. Toby Jenkins: And it's a disciple’s college? Marcy Smith: It's Church of Christ. Toby Jenkins: Church of Christ, okay. And that's where you went for your undergraduate degree? Marcy Smith: Couple years there, and the reason I went was that my best friend from high school was Church of Christ, and I didn't have a- it's like, "Okay, I'll go there, that's fine." And ran into probably one of the largest groups of gays and lesbians on the planet. It's kind of a joke. Anyway, although it was not a veryToby Jenkins: At the Christian University? Marcy Smith: At the Christian College. Toby Jenkins: Right. 6 �Marcy Smith: Lots of gays and lesbians, lots of people trying to escape their parents in the small town. So it was kind of a- I guess it was what you would call a beard, right? It was a cover. So they're like, "Oh yeah, we're gonna go to a Christian's college and fix ourselves." But that was not happening there. So anyway. Although when they caught someone, it was pretty brutal how they dealt with getting rid of students at the college when they found out they were gay or lesbian, so. Toby Jenkins: So you went thereMarcy Smith: I was there for a couple years, and my best friend was in love with a guy back in Tulsa. She just couldn't finish- she had to come back to Tulsa. So there really wasn't anything for me to stay there for, so I came back to Tulsa and finished my degree at the University of Tulsa.Graduated in 1986 with an MIS degree, which was one of the very first computer science and business majors at the University of Tulsa. We were the second class, and I think there were only about seven of us. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year? Marcy Smith: That was 1986. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and how big was the computer in those days? Marcy Smith: Well, soToby Jenkins: It wasn't on- it couldn't be on your desk yet, could it? I think- yeah. Marcy Smith: Well, no, no, yeah. No, but it was heading that way. It was heading that way. So, no, they were pretty big, pretty big computers. But I pushed it as long as I possibly could, so that I didn't have to use punch cards to do my programming. And thankfully, I got out of that, so. But computers as we would know them are desktops. I think that was around 1991-1992, or something like that, when that became kinda mainstream. Toby Jenkins: And did you go work for a company, or were youMarcy Smith: Fresh out of college, I ended up- I had two job offers. One was to be a tape hanger for American Airlines in their computer room. The other was to be a programmer analyst for Tulsa County. My dad thought I made a really horrible mistake by not working for American Airlines on the third shift hanging tapes, which was like an aerobic exercise job at the time. You can imagine their processing center and imagine their processing center today. But yeah, he thought I was silly for- 'cause I would've gotten fine benefits and stuff like that, so. But I never looked back on that. It's not what I wanted to do, so. 7 �Toby Jenkins: And how long were you with Tulsa County? Marcy Smith: About 18 years. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Toby Jenkins: And so are you gonna be able to draw your Tulsa County pension? Marcy Smith: As a matter of fact, in November of 2025, I got my first retirement check. Marcy Smith: So yeah, I'm happy about that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. They didn't pay us much, but we've got pension. Marcy Smith: No. But yeah, the benefits are really good. Yeah, but when I left Tulsa County in 2004, that rule of '80, I thought, there's just no way I'm gonna reach that, right? So that was 22 years ago. But as it got closer and closer, I was really happy about it, so we'll have some fun on that. Toby Jenkins: So you encountered other lesbian and gay students. Is that when you begin to realizeMarcy Smith: No, no. I knew pretty early, probably 10 or 11 years of age. Marcy Smith: And then, just because of the climate, dated- in quotes, dated guys in high school and got asked in high school because there was some stuff going on with the girls' basketball team, which I was on the basketball team. There were several lesbians on the basketball team. And so there got to be a kind of an uproar at some point. People were being questioned. And so my parents sat me down and I just lied straight to their face, 'cause I didn't wanna be in the middle of it. So thankfully, got out of that without a whole lot of issues, so. But it was a- Jenks back then, it was a pretty rural school. A lot of bubba's running around, a lot of individuals threatening people and some violence and vandalism of cars and stuff like that going on, so. So I didn't wanna call attention to it. Toby Jenkins: At college, even at your Christian college, I mean, did you hang out with those individuals and y'all just kind of were stealth atMarcy Smith: Well, yeah, you know how we are. We find our people, right? And so you hang out with your people. And so yeah, it was just a matter of just figuring out what you can and cannot do. But I will say- yeah, Oklahoma Christian College was smaller than my high school.When we went there, and I felt like I was living in the 1950s. When we got on campus, the girls dorms were locked at night, the guys were not. The guys could 8 �do whatever they wanted at night after hours on the weekend, stuff like that. I knew I wasn't gonna be long for that. It was just like, well, I'm just going here because my friend was here. And once that started happening, I just felt like I was caged in and sobut it was kind of odd environment. It kinda felt like you were in a bubble, this Christian bubble, and everything was wonderful and fine and all of that. Who knows what the administrators thought, but that wasn't what was going on behind the scenes with the students and stuff, so you just find your people and can do things. I ended up getting a job at a really nice restaurant there in Edmond called Joe Kelly's and it was a steakhouse, and people would have their high school events there and graduation and stuff like that. But I was the first- it was called a barback, so you're a bartender's assistant. Here I am going to a Christian college and I'm working at a bar, and when I would come home at night after doing my shift at the restaurant, I was literally covered in alcohol and smoke, 'cause you could smoke back then, right? At 02:00-03:00 in the morning, I had to wake up the resident assistants, this woman who took care of us at the dorm, had to wake her up at 02:00 AM in the morning, coming in just covered in alcohol. So anyway, that was kinda funny, people would do that. Toby Jenkins: Did you start socializing with this group of students who were in hiding, or did that happen when you got to TU? I mean, when did you create a clique of friends, whoMarcy Smith: When I left Oklahoma Christian College which was in Edmond, obviously, and came home to Tulsa, I really didn't stay in touch with most of them. They were from all over Oklahoma and all over the country, actually. So when I came back to Tulsa, I came back to Tulsa because I had a relationship with a woman at the time. We ended up moving in together and I finished out my degree at University of Tulsa at that point, and then just kinda started hanging out with everybody here in Tulsa, so really kinda through the softball chain of- I mean, just kinda how it was. Toby Jenkins: Lesbian day, or? Marcy Smith: Yeah, yeah, that's right, softball stuff. And then, the bars at the time and line dancing and all that kinda stuff. So you're going out to the bars andToby Jenkins: Do you remember what bars you went to? Marcy Smith: Oh. Well, I can't remember the name of the bar that was on Memorial there at 15th Street. Toby Jenkins: TNT's? 9 �Marcy Smith: No. Well, it wasn't- no, it was prior to TNT's and where people were playing- you know the name of the bar? Sue Welch: The Club. Marcy Smith: The Club, it's called The Club. So anyway, you had to knock and they open up the window and let you in, and all that kinda stuff. Toby Jenkins: And that was at 15th at Memorial? Marcy Smith: 15th, right, yeah, yeah, 15th Street, dead-ended, right into Memorial. And then, The Club was there and it was like a little house, actually. It wasn't very big. But they had an outdoor space, so volleyball and have fires and stuff like that. You can hang out outside The Club. Sue Welch: Jodie and Mary owned it. Marcy Smith: Yeah. So thenToby Jenkins: And it was a girls club? Marcy Smith: Yeah. And then you had the star, Silver Star, right? So that was 15th and Sheridan, and then TNT's. And then, theMarcy Smith: Off of Yale, what was it? 34th and Yale. There's also a club called the Crash Landing at the time [Crash Landing was at 5th and S. Lewis], that was a pretty coolToby Jenkins: So is Zippers closed by this time? Marcy Smith: No, Zippers- was it always called Zippers? I don't know if it was always called Zippers or not, but that was another place that we would go to, so. Toby Jenkins: So softball. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And these are clubs. Marcy Smith: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Did you know anything about Oklahomans for Human Rights or pride, or? Marcy Smith: I guess it was probably real early 90s when I got involved with OHR, TOHR. That was kinda the transition time, I think, when it was moving from those names and stuff over. Specifically, I believe it was when we were over on Peoria, I think. 10 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Marcy Smith: So that's kinda the first access in trying to assist and volunteer and stuff like that, so. Toby Jenkins: Let's put Sue on the hot seat. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And see how similar her story is or how different it is. Before we do that, I wanna ask you, tell me about meeting Sue. Marcy Smith: It was a New Year's Eve party at a friend's house. Lots of people there, I don't know, probably 30 or 40 women, maybe more than that. And this will date us- so it was all about Trivial Pursuit. So we're playing Trivial Pursuit, it's pretty competitive. She walked in with her then-partner, and I was around a coffee table or something like that, knee-deep in the Trivial Pursuit. And I just looked up and she walked in with her thenpartner. And it was- I don't know how- maybe I said something to someone like, "Who's that?" They were like, "Sue Welch and Darlene." So anyway, that's how we met, but there was something at that just initial glance. And so anyway, I'll let her tell the rest, but it was just a party. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Beautiful. Sue, where were you born and where are you from? Sue Welch: I was born in Ponca City, Oklahoma on April 30th, 1961. Dennis was born there too, it's our hometown, both of us. Marcy Smith: It's in the water. Sue Welch: Yeah. A nice, sweet little, small town, a great town to be born and raised in. Not a great town to stay, but a great town to be born and raised in. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Were you born in the hospital there? Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what was the name of that hospital? Sue Welch: Ponca City Hospital. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And tell us about your family. Sue Welch: My family, my mother's Cherokee and my dad is English. And they had a great love affair and were married till they passed and were wonderful parents. But my dad is a third-generation brick mason. Hiss grandfather, before statehood, had a brick yard in Ponca City. And he built the first brick home. So from my great-grandfather to my 11 �grandfather to my father and his brothers, it was a third-generation brick mason company, Welch Masonry Construction. Toby Jenkins: So they've been there for a while. Are there still- if you were to go to Ponca City today, are there still buildings that they built? Sue Welch: Oh, dozens and dozens, yes. Buildings and homes, yes. Yeah, you could have a Welch Masonry tour of Ponca City. Toby Jenkins: So did you go to school in Ponca City? Sue Welch: Yes, I went to Ponca City High School. And it was- we actually had a very large graduating class. It was 415 people for our graduating class. And I thought it wasToby Jenkins: So you all probably played Jenks in sports. Sue Welch: I wasn't really into sports. I don't know that. Could be. But I studied a lot. Sue Welch: Well, it may have been a little too far away. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. Sue Welch: Maybe at state and regionals, but not on a conference level. Sue Welch: I wouldn't have known. I went to the football games just for fun. So don't ask me any of those stats. Marcy Smith: Too popular. Sue Welch: I was the prom queen. So there's that. Toby Jenkins: Says so much. Sue Welch: But not the football queen, so. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So what year did you graduate? Sue Welch: I graduated in 1979. Toby Jenkins: And did you go to school after that? Sue Welch: Yes, after that, I went to OSU. And in 1983, got my degree in natural sciences, my bachelor's degree in natural sciences. Loved OSU. That was great. That was where my best friend and I started having deeper feelings about each other, so…in high school and throughout a large- oh, the first half of college, my boyfriend from high school, the wrestling star, we became engaged. So in high school- in college, we were going to be married right after college. 12 �My best friend and I started becoming very, very close, and I just kept thinking, "Oh my God, I can't graduate and leave my friend. This would be horrible." And we just kept getting deeper and deeper feelings, and I thought, "What is going on here?" Sue Welch: And so I talked to my mom about it, and I said, "I think I'm going crazy or something." She said, well, honey, I can't believe that any love is wrong. And I never looked back. So I left my fiancé. Toby Jenkins: And that would've been- you would've been ... Marcy Smith: She called off the wedding. Yeah. Sue Welch: Yeah. Sue Welch: The dress was all done. The invitations were ... - yeah. It was on the way. Marcy Smith: The colors were picked, all the stuff. Toby Jenkins: The runaway bride. Marcy Smith: Yes. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. How old would you've been? Sue Welch: So that would have been, let's see, right when I graduated, right at 1983. So 21, 22. Toby Jenkins: So you had this discussion with your mother. I'm just guessing there probably weren't a bunch of lesbians in Ponca City to help mentor you. Sue Welch: There may have been, but I did not know them. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: I didn't know anyone in the community. I didn'tToby Jenkins: It's 'cause you weren't going to softball camp. Sue Welch: That's right. My gaydar was not tuned at the time, so yeah. Toby Jenkins: You went to OSU. What was that experience like for you now that you had ended that relationship and probably were figuring out? Sue Welch: We moved into a house together, and we had a few friends, both of us. We were each other's first experience, and so neither of us knew of any community per se, 13 �but we did find a few friends, half a dozen, 10 friends that we hung out with a little bit. Then we broke up, and someone introduced me to a woman in Tulsa. And when I left OSU and came to Tulsa to establish my practice here, there was a huge community. So many people. I was just like, "Wow, this is amazing." So much so that my partner was a teacher, and my sister, when she would visit, she said, "Well, are all teachers lesbians?" So such a great, huge community. So that was fantastic to experience. Marcy Smith: Well, and you have gay guy friends to this day from OSU. Sue Welch: Well, not from a- well, they were gone at the same time. Yeah, but we didn't hang out a lot. We found each other kind of after. In Tulsa. And I was like, "I knew you in OSU." So we kind of, all of us were in hiding there once I did come out of OSU. Toby Jenkins: So you didn't really connect to the LGBTQ community at OSU. It was when you came to Tulsa. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And when you say there was a huge community, what did that look like? Sue Welch: Oh my gosh. Toby Jenkins: Were there just house parties, or people went to eat together, or? Sue Welch: House parties, going to the bars, dancing, potlucks, softball. My partner was a well-respected softball umpire, so lots of softball. Of course she was. And so yeah, just a lot of socializing. A lot of socializing. Toby Jenkins: Did either of you ladies ever interact with the flag football team, the girls' flag football team? Sue Welch: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, that's who helped me come out. I always say I was raised by wolves, because the girls' flag football team. So it was a huge community, and you were in a relationship. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what was your career at this time? Sue Welch: I was licensed by the medical board as an electrologist. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: And I did that for 22 years in Broken Arrow and in Tulsa. 14 �Toby Jenkins: And you were in a relationship. Do you remember kinda what the environment was like for you in Tulsa, what it was like to go to gay clubs and, as you said, find so many people? Sue Welch: It was fantastic. Because I think we had so many- such a large group, I didn't recognize feeling a lot of threat. I knew some of our male counterparts were threatened. But we just didn't go to places that allowed us to be threatened. We didn't go out unless we were in big numbers. We only went to certain places. The Club was very private, very protected. So that's kind of what that was like. Toby Jenkins: And what was that like? You hit the parking lot, and the minute you walk through the doorSue Welch: Yeah, it's freedom. Yeah, freedom. Toby Jenkins: You could hold hands. Like, cheers, hey. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: You could hold hands? Yeah. Sue Welch: Yeah, freedom, absolutely. Sue Welch: But not out at work, not out to any clients, not out to friends who were not LGBT. Toby Jenkins: So I'm gonna ask you both this question, but tell me about the first time you saw Marcy. Sue Welch: So it was a party, and my partner and I walked in, and there were people playing at a table. And Marcy has these beautiful brown piercing eyes, and so I noticed her naturally. And it was probably another year after, and it was a New Year's party, and it struck midnight. And I'm a pretty private person, private physically. I'm very demonstrative, but kissing on the lips was really a personal thing for me. And it struck midnight, and Marcy just planted a kiss right on my lips. And I was like, "Wow." Marcy Smith: She wasn't the only person that I kissed. Sue Welch: Well, no. Marcy Smith: I mean, it was New Year's Eve. Everybody ... . Sue Welch: Marcy wasn't as protective of her lips as I was. So but yes, I was like, "Oh, my God." That was sparky. So yeah. And then our partners, the four of us became close friends, and you know the story. So we could not- we were inseparable. And we all four 15 �worked on our partnerships. We knew there were some feelings. But we were inseparable and just in so much pain not being able to see each other that the partnership split. AndToby Jenkins: For you all to be together? Marcy Smith: Yep. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That would've been what year? Marcy Smith: '92. Toby Jenkins: '92? Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: In the 1900s. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Sue Welch: In the 1900s, we got together. Toby Jenkins: So I asked both of you, and you said you found community here. You found that because you got on the Internet, right? And you looked up where the gay bars were. Marcy Smith: Oh right, because the Internet existed. No, the Internet didn't quite exist yet. Well, I guess 1992-ish is about the time it started taking off. Those were chat rooms. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember any public officials or movie stars or rockstars, who were out in open who you could look at and see, oh, this is how you- this is what it is? Sue Welch: Eventually, Lilly Tomlin came out. Eventually, through the horrible AIDS crisis, we saw stars, Rock Hudson die, whether they'd come out prior or not. But no, there were no authority figures, people that you could look up to, to have any kind of guidance that way. Toby Jenkins: Social media non-existent. Sue Welch No. The Gay Yellow Pages, literally a book that you would look in to find places. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Couldn't text people messages. 16 �Marcy Smith: Nope, nope. Sue Welch: No. Toby Jenkins: Couldn't send them pictures. Marcy Smith: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So we've talked about you meeting each other. Could you just real quickly emphasize to us and our viewers, what it was like when you had the discussion with your families to say, I'm a lesbian, I have a partner. Or can you kind of tell about those experiences, if you had those experiences with your parents. Marcy Smith: My family is kinda the 'don't ask, don't tell' family. Don't mess with my stuff. I'm not gonna mess with your stuff. We're not gonna have a lot of drama. So all this time, I was just kinda living my life, but wasn't really putting it in my parents' face, so to speak. Obviously, I wasn't bringing any guys home. And then Sue and I had been together for a little bit. But so what happened was, well, same-sex marriage didn't exist. So there was a company, a travel company called Olivia Travel Company. They were also a record company at the time that was promoting lesbian artists. And so it's an all-women's cruise, which is really neat. So Sue and I were gonna do that. And on these cruises, because you could not get legally married, they would haveSue Welch: Union ceremonies. Marcy Smith: Unions, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Commitment ceremony. March Smith: A commitment ceremony. So that's how my family found out, because we sent out announcements to my family that Sue and I were going to have a commitment ceremony in Mexico, and that's how my family found out. It was kind of ripply, quite frankly. And it was kinda like, I guess, how people can be like, how could you not know that Sue and I were a couple, but sometimes straight people don't really see things. So it was a little bit rough. We timed it pretty quickly before we went to the- so we could hurry up and get out of town and get on the cruise and let my family deal with it. So that's kinda how my family found out, which was literal announcement. Toby Jenkins: So you said it was rough. I mean, were they upset, or were they questioning you, or just mad that you hadn't told them before? 17 �Marcy Smith: Yeah, yeah. I think they- I don't know, 'cause I didn't really sit down and talk with them quite honestly. It was like, just y'all deal with it. Sue Welch: I think they were upset that they were having to deal with it. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Sue Welch: They were being forced to deal with it. Marcy Smith: Yes. Yeah, and this was something that they probably had pushed down for decades, obviously. It's like, "Oh my gosh, now they have to come to terms with it." I think my parents probably thought, in some form or fashion, that they had failed, and all those things that you hear. But ultimately, my mom embraced us and kinda became the mom down here at the center. So mom spent at least 10 years, I think, or more volunteering down at the center and baking brownies for people and things like that. So she committed to that once, I think, she came to terms with it. And so that was really neat. Sue Welch: She was great. Toby Jenkins: Sue, what about you, your family? I know you'd had the conversation with your mother. Sue Welch: Well, my family found out about our commitment ceremony in the same way, with the announcements. But all through Marcy had been my third relationship. And all through…they knew about my relationships, accepted my partners, and were very loving and accepting. Accepted them as family, they came to family reunions. So when we sent out the announcements, I got calls, "That sounds nice, honey. Well, good for you." Ohe worst one, or the most uncomfortable one, I guess, was from one of my sisters, and she just called and said, "Well, I just wanna call and tell you I got your announcement about your thing. And just wanna tell you I got it." That was about the most outside effect. But my family has just always been- I've been so fortunate, the way they've accepted me. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Do you think your family's had issues with religion and sexuality? Were those any kinda struggles or politics? I mean, they were super conservative politically. Did they seem to show concern about how this was gonna make them look in their business or around, don't tell your grandmother. I mean, was there any kind of those? Marcy Smith: I think, from my father's perspective, that he was concerned about his reputation and his business reputation and the country club stuff and all of that. I remember in particular, he wanted a trip to Paris and through his company and he's like, 18 �"I don't wanna go to Paris. And I said, "Well, I'd like to go to Paris. I'll go on that trip." And it was an oil company trip thing and- so before it got too far down the line, he made it very clear to me that I was not to take my partner with me to on this trip. And so it was like, "You can take your mom." And so I said, "Okay, I'm gonna go to the city of love and take my mom." I mean, I love my mom, but. So anyway, so that was made very, very clear, that I was supposed to basically behave, in front of his peers and cronies and stuff like that for that trip, so. Toby Jenkins: Were you able to bring girlfriends home to your parents’ houses, your mom or dad's house for gatherings? Marcy Smith: So I mean, like Sue said, it's not like I was this dating feen. We had twoone, I had one, but I had a high school relationship but that was not, quite frankly, ever gonna go anywhere, but anyway. So two basic relationships before I got with Sue. Sue and I have been together for 34 years now, so it wasn't like there were this a bunch of women that I was bringing home. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about you, Sue? Did the family feel any- I mean, were you able to take… Sue Welch: Oh yeah, yeah, from the get-go. My first relationship, second relationship, Marcy, they were all included in holidays, gatherings, accepted by my family and my sister that has lived in Oklahoma for- not currently, but for most of her life. Yeah, they were just part of the family and my partner. Marcy Smith: And I would agree with that. I don't want it to sound like my family was wanted me to not bring. ..I mean, they were- whoever I brought home, part of the family. My mom was one of seven children, so everybody was welcome. Toby Jenkins: No political pushback, no religious pushback? Marcy Smith No, because we are the 'don't ask, don't tell' family. So we didn't really bring that stuff up at all. Toby Jenkins: What about you, Sue? Sue Welch: No, no, my family's always been very progressive, very liberal, although we were raised in a fairly strict Lutheran Church, my family's never been that linear. Their Christianity really is what would Jesus do and love everyone. Toby Jenkins: Fortunate. Do you both feel fortunate that you were born into the families you were born into? Marcy Smith: Yes 19 �Sue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: 'Cause we're about to change gears just a little bit here, because surely, as you were hanging out at what places identified as the community, you were encountering people who did not have those experiences, could not take partners home, hadn't spoke to their families. I know that was something you probably were saying. So you're together…You're building your life together. I mean, did you move into an apartment together? Was there a U-Haul involved? We've always heard- I meanSue Welch: We moved into a duplex that I had previously moved into and we- then Marcy, moved in. Then we purchased the duplex and then we purchased a home in Midtown. Marcy Smith: Well, no, we purchased a second duplex. So we had two duplexes. Sue Welch: And then we purchased a home in Midtown, which we were renovating while we still lived in the first duplex. And when we moved to Midtown, it's kind of when we started finding more out about the gay pride parades and the center on Peoria and going to the center on Peoria, and seeing a little gift shop. And just- but for me, all the kids, the young kids that were there, and thinking, "Gosh, had I known about that sooner, I may have come out sooner, I don't know." but it was just- it was a pivotal thing to see that. Toby Jenkins: And of course, were you- at this time Marcy, you were still working for Tulsa County. Did they know? Marcy Smith I did not come out to- I mean literally say this to my peers, but I didn't hide my relationship with Sue and whenever we had- if we were doing chili cook-offs or whatever we were doing forToby Jenkins: Holiday parties. Marcy Smith: - fundraisers or things like that, it was just assumed that Sue would be there. So- but no, I didn't literally say to my boss, "This is who Sue is." Toby Jenkins: So you don't feel like you've experienced discrimination, justMarcy Smith: I don't know if I did or not, I just head down, get my career going and all that kinda stuff. So I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Just out of curiosity, would you have had a desk and would on your desk, would there have been a picture of your partner, and would you've had somebody ask you, like a new employee might say, "Are you married, do you have husband, do you have kids?" I mean- 20 �Marcy Smith: I- to be honest, I cannot remember if I had a picture of SueSue Welch: You weren't out that much. Marcy Smith: No, no. No, I did not push that. No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Okay. Sue, you had your medical profession. And what about with your clients? I mean, were youSue Welch: No, not out all. Toby Jenkins: You guarded that very carefully. Sue Welch: I may have had two clients that I was out to, but that's it. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you've moved to Brookside, the Rainbow Ribbon, as it's called. And the center, as you call it, was just down the street. And what did that center look like? Sue Welch: It was small. It was small. It wasn't well appointed. I mean it was fantastic 'cause it served a great purpose, but just in comparison to where we're sitting now, it was small and not greatly appointed. It was hidden. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't accessible. Sue Welch: You had to go in a small door, climb some stairs. There wasn't signage, so that's kinda what I remember. The store was very, very small, maybe just one cabinet, some jewelry or something, as I recall. Toby Jenkins: And you would go to pride? Sue Welch: Yes, at that time, at least for a couple or few times, the pride parade went down Peoria, which was fantastic. So we started doing that and then we would go to pride every year beyond that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. When did- I mean, did you volunteer or did you just support it? Sue Welch: We mostly just supported at that time. And there were starting to be visible churches that were supportive, and there was one on Peoria also, and so we'd usually stand at that location. Toby Jenkins: That would've been All Souls ... ? Sue Welch: No, further south... . Toby Jenkins: Southwest Presbyterian, or? 21 �Sue Welch: Probably that Presbyterian one, yeah. Marcy Smith: It wasn't Southminster. It's not there anymore. It's right there where the green space is across from Charleston's. Sue Welch: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, the United Methodist Church. Marcy Smith: Yes, it was the United Methodist Church. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I know. I forget the name of that, but. Okay, so you'd watch the parade. Sue Welch: And we'd join in at the end of the parade. At that time it was small enough, you could just walk with it. Toby Jenkins: Now did you ever attend the events like before the parade, where we had to walk down the sidewalks? Sue Welch: I don't know that we knew about those events. Toby Jenkins: Prior to that? Okay. And so the center was the headquarters of Tulsa Oklahoma for Human Rights, right? Correct? That y'all had already branded by that? Okay. Dennis Neill: Since '85. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And, so you were there. I know that somewhere along the line, you got into the cause, got drafted, recruited, or fell into it accidentally. The desire for us to have a more permanent home because we weren't at- the center was not at that location very long, was it? Sue Welch: No. Toby Jenkins: And then it moved. Marcy Smith: And that happened at least three times within a fairly five to six year period of time. Because somehow or another, we got a lease signed but eventually the landlords weren't really happy about the clientele. Not that it was rowdy or outrageous or anything like that. So then we moved to, or TOHR moved to the space at 21st and Memorial by TNTs, the bar there. Toby Jenkins: Above TNT's. 22 �Marcy Smith: Above TNT's. And not a very, in my opinion, positive space because the smoke was seeping through the cinder block. It got to the point, I couldn't spend much time there because of how- it just was not a positive space. And that's kinda where the rumblings of the capital campaign happened. But yeah, we got recruited at a party by Nancy McDonald. We didn't know why we got invited to this party. Sue Welch: It was actually more surreptitious than that. We started having more friends, and so we got invited to this party. She was there but she told someone after that party, "You need to call those girls and get them involved." So we got a call and were asked to get on this group to help develop and work on a capital campaign for a permanent equality center. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: Found out later, Nancy was the impetus for that. Toby Jenkins: And so, you got asked to serve on that? Toby Jenkins: And what were those early days like? Sue Welch: So we did have, before moving from Peoria, we did have a couple, the very first meetings there. And Marcy and I are really organized and conducting meetings, let's get something done. So I think we exhibit our leadership pretty quickly. And a lot of people don't want to be in charge. So I became the capital chair at the time. And we developed a campaign, the United Way always has a name of their campaign, so we thought we need a name for this. And so we developed the Pyramid Project. And this was a beautiful little book telling everyone about it and how it would be such a wonderful thing to have our own center, where we wouldn't have to move, a permanent visible presence. And so we just went from there and from each place we would move, we would have more meetings. We did, thanks to Dennis and Nancy as I recall, we had a training from the Gale Foundation that was a weekend long. And we brought in a lot of people to that and helped develop our focus a lot more about what amount we'd be raising, how we would do that. They had some really great booklets about fundraising. And again at the time, there were no foundations in Oklahoma, much less Tulsa, who would support us until later. So it was a very grassroots campaign. It was one person at a time, one gay person in Tulsa at a time getting them on board, having them donate funds. And then we got- I remember sending out a really sappy tear-jerky letter to a foundation in New York City, who I had heard reading through these manuals with Nancy, gave 23 �money to gay causes. And they gave us our first check from a foundation, a $10,000 check from a foundation. And after that, a friend called me from the George Kaiser Foundation and said, "George was looking at the newspaper on his desk about you all and the money you're raising, and he'd like to talk with you about this and see if he could get involved." And I was like, "Okay." Dominoes, so the dominoes started. The Schusterman Foundation. But we had- before any of this large money that way, we focused on house parties, individual people, really telling them how this could happen, would happen, and it would be amazing. We had our main donors. And Dennis helped with that group and really helped us get going. So it was a house party at a time. Marcy Smith: Then again, we're still in the midst of the AIDS crisis at this time. I mean, it's still kind of going on in the late 80s and early 90s as well. And when this kicked off, I will tell you, we got some pushback from the gay guys in the community that here are two women, two- that they didn't even know. Like, we're on the D list. They don't even know who we are. Stepping up to do this. And also, at the time, there had been at least one other nonprofit organization who had a capital campaign and the funds were misused. And so of course, the thought was like, "Well, this is gonna go the same way, even though it had nothing to do with it." It was really difficult to convince, I guess you'd call them the movers and shakers at the time, in the gay community. And then, of course, trying to pull the lesbian community into it was tough. But kind of being told to our face and also hearing what was being said behind our back gave us-Fuel…some fuel to kinda set this up. And we had to do it differently, like Sue said, because we weren't in L.A, we weren't in New York, we're literally- Ford Foundation would cut a check. We didn't have that here. And so, the way we had to do it here was totally opposite. Usually, you got these big donations at the beginning that kick-started you. And here we had to prove ourselves first. Toby Jenkins: Public dollars. Oh, the public dollars in those places. Marcy Smith: And- yeah, there's not gonna be anything from the state. Nothing was going to happen like that here. But because of that, I think it really built this incredible foundation and support for the purpose of it. And again, it was about building this home, a permanent visible presence here. Toby Jenkins: Sue, talk a little bit about how y'all used social events to create buy-in and raise money at the same time. 24 �Sue Welch: I think there were disparate clubs around town and kind of cliquish groups around town. But we wanted to really bring everybody together. So we had- and in years past, there was a large party called the Black and White Party that was hosted by gay guys in Tulsa, which was a really nicely well-attended party. But it was just a party. So we wanted to bring this disparate group of people together behind the same cause. And there had not been a citywide gay party, LGBT party in decades. And so, we developed what we called the Wild Hearts Ball. And the first one we had was at the, then Brady Mansion. And there were so many people there. And this was the first big thing that had happened in Tulsa in a long time. And so we would show a big party, nice music, nice food. We'd show a video about this and ask for donations. And it was just so compelling for people to see so many people there joining in and know that we could all do this together. Toby Jenkins: And everybody could be invited to it. Marcy Smith: Exactly. Sue Welch: Oh yeah. Toby Jenkins: It wasn't an exclusive party. Sue Welch: Exactly, it was not exclusive. Toby Jenkins: It wasn't a girl party, a boy party. Sue Welch: No. Exactly. Yeah, it was the entire community. And that was really super because of our- we would send out a quarterly newsletter. Marcy Smith: This was postal mail about ... . Sue Welch: Postal mail. This is in sizeToby Jenkins: This one's an email. Sue Welch: This is in size 11 point font. See all these names? These are $10 donors to $10,000 donors. The entire community bought into this. It was a beautiful thing. Toby Jenkins: And it was all very smooth and unified, wasn't it? Seu Welch: Yes, yes. Everyone got along. Marcy Smith: Well, no. When we look at itSue Welch: Well, behind the scenes, we had to fight to get where we were, but everyone was just really pushing in the same direction. It was great that way. 25 �Marcy Smith: And again, it's tough to get- I'm sorry, lesbians onboard, 'cause they like to do their sports, they like to do the softball and all that kinda stuff and go to the bars. And so kinda pulling them out was a little difficult. So we did- so we- so it was like how many different ways can we slice this pie and serve it up to people to get people involved? So then we came up with the concept of the Women's Tea Dance. And also supporting women owned businesses and also provide nonprofit organizations the ability toSue Welch: Showcase. Marcy Smith: - Showcase their businesses to women. So imagine that, okay? So you got an all-women Women's Tea Dance, right? We are contacting, I don't know how many places we contacted and got no after no after no after no. No, we are not going to rent to you for a bunch of lesbians. I don't know what they thought it was gonna be. Some, I don't know, orgy or something like that. So we got turned down how many times and then we finally approached Frances. Sue Welch: So the last place I went to was the Greenwood Cultural Center. And I've been everywhere. Physically, meeting face-to-face with people. And so I met with Frances, told her who we were, what we were doing, that it was for ... campaign. Marcy Smith: She's director. Sue Welch: Frances Jordan, the Executive Director of the Greenwood Cultural Center. Marcy Smith: She, by the way, is still the Executive Director of the Greenwood today. Sue Welch: So I gave all my spiel and she said, "Well, Sue." And I expected a no. "Well, Sue, here at the Greenwood Cultural Center, we do not discriminate. So we'd be happy to have you." I was like, "Yay!" So at that first one and subsequent ones, we had 300- more than 300 lesbians from all across the city. And that was fantastic. Huge gatherings. Toby Jenkins: Now to pull in women, you also did the calendar girls. Marcy Smith: So yeah, there was a movie. I don't even know when the movie was, in the mid 90s or something. It was based on a true story. The calendar girls, which was an older group of women in Great Britain, who were trying to raise money for a wing to be added on to their very small hospital. So they came up with this idea to basically have a nudie calendar. Sue Welch: A boudoir calendar. 26 �Marcy Smith: A boudoir calendar. So we did the same thing, but what we did was- and I was really proud of these women that did this, 'cause we were partially Sue Welch: We were surprised by the women who said yes. Marcy Smith: Yeah, I mean, there were some pretty revealing photographs in this calendar. So what- so we didn't know if anybody was gonna- we didn't think anybody would buy the calendar. So we had them get sponsors. So they had to recruit as many people as possible to donate a minimum of like $250 or $500 or something like that to sponsor their month. That's how we raised. I mean, we were just happy to raise $5,000 at a time. $5,000 here, $5,000 there, to start building toward this million dollar, which was a monumental amount of money. When it was determined that that's what we were gonna need to do this, I mean, the community's likeSue Welch: Can't do it. Marcy Smith: "There's no way. You will never do that. Never do that." Sue Welch: The end point was $1.3 million. Toby Jenkins: And so there were naysayers, and there were people who were divisive, and there were people who may have been difficult. You had that, right? Sue Welch: Yeah, but not for long. Marcy Smith: And once the momentum started, itToby Jenkins: So I think I remember garden parties, the garden tour. Sue Welch: We did, we had a home and garden tour. Marcy Smith: Yeah, we did. Sue Welch: We really tried to model things that- the firemen did a calendar for United Way, so-and-so did a home and garden tour for whatever. So we try to model things that would make sense. That people would kind of already know how that worked and go, "Oh my gosh, so the gay community is doing that, great, let's get on to that." Toby Jenkins: What about the LGBT film festival? Was that alsoMarcy Smith: OUT OK. Sue Welch: So OUT OK, that was really progressive for the time. That was the first LGBT out film festival. Phillip Oh and Mark Bonney were in charge of that. They brought films from everywhere, amazing films, and all the proceeds went to the capital campaign. 27 �Marcy Smith: Yeah, talk about being ahead of its time. Sue Welch: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Now there's like gay film festival all the time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So it was a long lengthy process of raising the money, but you were also creating community and building a unified vision. Very impressed that you were able to do that. But at the same time, you still had to be take care in the community. So there was community centers, yet during this time. We still had community centers and you wanna talk about some of the locations andMarcy Smith: Well, I think where we were, we were at 21st and Memorial, and I think that was a very difficult landlord. It ended up being a very difficult landlord situation. But for me personally, I was glad we got the heck out of Dodge out of that location. I think it was an oppressive location, just because of the color of it and the smell of the smoke. I mean, it just was not- it didn't feel healthy. Toby Jenkins: And it wasn't accessible there. Sue Welch: No. Marcy Smith: It wasn't welcoming. Toby Jenkins: You had to steps to go up. Sue Welch: No. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And then, got up there and the meeting room was downstairs, the bathrooms were downstairs, but we were- it was our center, and we were proud of it. Sue Welch: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Oh yeah. So the next location was the shopping center at 41st off of Yale, right across from Ricardo's Mexican restaurant, which is still there. And so that was, I would say, the best place we had been. And I'm gonna guess it was maybe 3,600 square feet, maybe. Sue Welch: Sounds about right. Yeah, maybe- 3,500. Marcy Smith: - 3,500, So it's give or take, right? And pretty much an open space, so not a lot of segregated space, where people could have private meetings or whatever they might've been doing and so but same kinda thing. We were there for a while, and then the landlord got a little weirded out and stuff. We were just trying to bide our time to get this going, so that we could own our own home instead of being kicked out 28 �eventually. And I say that- they just didn't wanna renew the lease. Or they just decided, given us notice and whatever, so. Toby Jenkins: What were some of the services that were being offered at the center? Sue Welch: Well, I'm glad you're bringing that up, Toby, because behind the scenes, while all this was going, certainly, Dennis and other people and the volunteers- Dennis was getting the Gill foundation to set up computer labs and all ofToby Jenkins: The Bohnett Foundation Sue Welch: Yes, the Bohnett. And all the services continuing, grief groups and game nights andToby Jenkins: HIV testing. Sue Welch: Yes, and counseling and all those things were still going on. Toby Jenkins: I can remember, just wanna throw this out there and get your thoughts on it. I can remember at that Center, at in the Highland Park Shopping Center, volunteering on a night where it was first time I'd ever been interacting. We had a transgender support group. So do you remember- we've talked about lesbian and gay men. Do you remember being an intentional outreach to transgender persons, or? Sue Welch: Not as far as with fundraising, because I don't think at that time we had a large group for the fundraising aspect. But certainly in the service, we established town halls finding out what people wanted, what we needed, so that we could provide that in this new place that was gonna be our permanent home. So absolutely in the services. Toby Jenkins: So you assess the community? Did y'all have surveys, or? Sue Welch: We did, at each Pride picnic, we had surveys. We had a large gathering at the library and we handed out surveys and collected information about what they want in the center, specifically as far as even rooms, art gallery, that sort of thing, kitchen, services they might want, locations they might want. Toby Jenkins: And so y'all were being paid to do all of this and you had a full-time position, right? Marcy Smith: No. Sue Welch: We had full-time positions at our jobs. Marcy Smith: : So every fundraising event for the Pyramid Project started off with a budget- 29 �Sue Welch: Zero. Marcy Smith: - which was zero. That was what we started with. You're gonna donate this, you're gonna donate your time, you're gonna donate the goods, all that kinda thing. So our goal was that a lot of capital campaigns had budgets that as much as 25-30% would go to administrative overhead of what was being raised. Toby Jenkins: Paid to development workers. Marcy Smith: So our goal was to have 95% of the funds that we raised, go directly to the capital. So that meant 5% to do all this. And I think, ultimately, we ended up being aboutSue Welch: I think about seven. Marcy Smith: - 7-8% or something rather than 5%. So we were right around 92% of all the funds that were raised, stayed right there in the community foundation. That was the other thing. It was a big milestone, was going to Tulsa Community Foundation because it was about credibility. And so we needed to have our money at a place where it was managed for a place of credibility. So that was a huge milestone when we were able to have those funds placed at the Tulsa Community Foundation which they are still at today. So that was a big deal. That added some ... . Sue Welch: Yeah, through Dennis and Nancy, they introduced us to people there and got all that set up safe and safeguarded. So then, donors would feel even more comfortable. Toby Jenkins: So about how many years was the fundraising part of it? Marcy Smith: Six. Sue Welch: 6-7. Marcy Smith: Yeah, six, 2007 when we did it. Toby Jenkins: Did people grow fatigued from that? I mean, did theyMarcy Smith: Oh yeah. I mean, it didn't take too many years that when Sue and I would show up at a party, people were turning away. I mean, they knew we were gonna be pressing the flesh and, hi, how you doing? We haven't seen a donation from you in a while. But I mean, it just kinda got to be a joke. We were like, "Are we gonna get invited to anything this year?" 30 �Toby Jenkins: So I'm gonna take you back. This is your life. It's January 1st, 2000, the night after the Y2K fear. What were y'all doing on January 1st, 2000? Do you remember? Marcy Smith: Well, I can tell you what I was doing. I was head of the Y2K project at Tulsa County. So I spent that New Year's Eve in the computer room doing one of these. And it was a five-year project that I led. And I had the same budget from my boss which was, you're not gonna spend any money on this project. We weren't able to do that because of software costs, but it was a very small budget. So that's where I was. So I was in a computer room in Tulsa, Oklahoma that night. And it went perfectly, by the way. Sue Welch: Are you remembering a house party? Toby Jenkins: Yeah, on New Year's Day. Sue Welch: On New Year's Day. Marcy Smith: Oh, New Year's Day? Okay. Marcy Smith: New Year's Day, we had a house party at our house. Marcy Smith: Yeah, and invited several people. And I think we'd seen you peripherally, but this was your first time to reallyToby Jenkins: Be pulled into the project. Sue Welch: Yeah, yeah. To be ... . Toby Jenkins: My point isSue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - I can remember getting invited to that on New Year's Day after we had all survived. And that was my first time to hear about it. The project to raise money for our permanent center. Now, I was very familiar with the center. Sue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: But it was the first time I'd ever been included in that. And I had no money, but I was able to make just a little bitty tiny gift. But you made me feel like my little tiny gift was as important as the people who were writing the big checks. Sue Welch: It was. 31 �Toby Jenkins: So you spent five or six years raising this money and keeping the community focused on the prize. When did we buy the building? And do you wanna talk a little bit about the effort to finally purchase property? Sue Welch: So as we were getting, we set a goal that we would have a certain amount of money raised before we would even look at property. And we were reviewing a dozen or more properties over and over, as we got to that point. And Dennis called and said, "Hey, have you looked at this place at 4th and Kenosha?" And we're like, "Okay, we'll go look at that one." And so we called up the realtor who was listed there and I said, "Okay, great. I'm gonna have to talk to another realtor and tell him who we are and what we're looking for." And so went to his office and on his wall was a big picture of John F. Kennedy. I was like, "I think I'm okay." And so I met Max Tankersley and told him about who we were and he said, "Okay, great. I'd love to show you this". So we walked in and at the time, it had been a communications company, so there were wires literally everywhere. It was just full of communications things. But it was so solid because it used to be an oil company's building, where they built explosives to dig oil wells before they had the bits. So the walls are about 12 inches thick. It is just so solid. So walking through, it's really solid, it's not dirty, it's not dank, it's bright…Lots of windows, lots of space. We're thinking, "Oh my gosh, there's so much space here. But from these surveys, we could do this, we could do that, we could do all the things that the people are wanting." And so I think we probably called Dennis first and said, "Dennis, this is a really neat place." And we had a key group of donors who just kept donating, were donating substantially. And so, we rented two trolley cars. We had a nice little reception at a house in Terwilliger Heights. And we said, "We're gonna take you all to a place we want you to see that we believe this is gonna be our center." And so we got 'em all fed and liquored up and got 'em on the trolleys. And so we came in and several of them were likebecause it wasn't rough compared to the things we've been looking at, but it wasn't fancy by any means. Marcy Smith: And grey. Sue Welch: And it was downtown, which was one of the locations people wanted, but not everyone. And so I think several of them went, "Oh, wow, this is really great, great vision." And some of 'em went, "Ugh, this is what you're picking? It was a little effort in getting people on board with that. So we created- we got together a group of designers and if you want to haveToby Jenkins: Gay designers. 32 �Sue Welch: Gay designers. And if you want to have fun, get a group of gay designers together and tell them, we're not paying them anything and everything they develop needs to come in free, all the accessories, all the furniture. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but they have to raise the money to furnish the room. Sue Welch: And so that was fun. Kirk Holt, I appointed him as the chair, 'cause he's great at getting all those people together. So we developed these vision boards for each of the rooms and we had more people come and more people look, and that really helped with donations. This was, of course, after we bought the building, and that helped also engage people for volunteerism, if they couldn't give or if they wanted to do more, to physically work at the building in renovations. I served as the general contractor for the renovations and we had a ... . Marcy Smith: And she got paid zero. Sue Welch: And we had literally hundreds of volunteers working thousands of hours. The things we had to hire, have electricians, licensed plumbers, that sort of thing. We certainly did that. But I mean, so many people learned how to sheet rock, insulate things, tear down walls. Some of my happiest memories are remembering these guys and looking at you Dennis, doing that work, that heavy, hard work. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So the building was purchased, let's talk about that morning after years of fundraising and this was the- you're trying to keep everybody rowing in the right direction. Tell us about that morning, when you invited the community to come and look at it and we raised the first rainbow flag. Sue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: From our flagpole and we had ... Marcy Smith: Talking about the Field of Dreams? Sue Welch: Nope. Marcy Smith: Oh, okay. Toby Jenkins: No, I'm talking about the morning we ... Marcy Smith: Oh, the grand opening. Toby Jenkins: Well, it wasn’t the grand opening, it was the morning that we ... Sue Welch: That was our first flag. 33 �Toby Jenkins: The building was ours, and we raised the flag for the first time. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You had a bagpiper on the roof. Sue Welch: Yeah, yep, had a bagpiper on the roof, we had Rick Hollingsworth give us a blessing. Toby Jenkins: Probably, a thousand people showed up. Sue Welch: The first time so many people had even been in the building. And I remember it was so loud downstairs in the main hall. I was looking around, I'm not a loud speaker and I thought, "I've gotta find somebody, I've gotta get up on these stairs, I gotta find somebody to get the attention of this crowd. And I saw Rebecca Ungerman out there and I said, "Rebecca." And so I got Rebecca up on the stairs and everyone was milling about, crammed in there and just excited. And so she got the crowd's attention and we just had a little, here's your new home people, let's complete this project. Toby Jenkins: Yep, first timeSue Welch: Yep. Toby Jenkins: - this was ours, it belonged to us. Sue Welch: Yeah, people were so excited. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't leased, wasn't rented, no landlord could take our mortgage away. Sue Welch: Exactly. Toby Jenkins: And we were able to raise our rainbow flag. Sue Welch: Yep, show who we were, know that we'd have signage on the building that it couldn't be taken away because that was a problem with so many of the places, moving so often caused breaks in services, not being able to identify our building, our storefront, where we were leasing, caused difficulty in people's access. And so now, we had a place we could put signage, have our flag, we had a corner in downtown Tulsa, in the heart of Oklahoma. Marcy Smith: And as most neighborhoods go after the gays move in, this area of Tulsa and downtown has exploded with development, exploded. Toby Jenkins: And here you have it, we can verify documentation that the gay folks revitalized downtown Tulsa you now at this point. 34 �Marcy Smith: Absolutely. Marcy Smith: This Pearl District, you have- absolutely right. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: 'Cause it was the truth. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Because it was just, mostly downtown was abandoned buildings that were boarded up. Sue Welch: Yep. Toby Jenkins: Nobody lived down here. There weren't any stores or you didn't have people walking their pets, so. Sue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: But it's what we could afford and we got it. Tell us about that year we spent working on it, but at the same time, we were operating the centerSue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: - with all of its servicesSue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: - at its old location. Sue Welch: Marcy had a good job that allowed me to spend a lot of time during that time away from my practice. And so every Saturday and Sunday, we would have volunteers. One of my cohorts would help check 'em in and we give assignments. Some people would just be sweeping, some people would be putting up walls. Toby Jenkins: Or ladders. On ladders. Sue Welch: Yeah. Oh, on ladders, painting, cleaning, taking up tile from the floor. You name it. Tiling new bathroom floors, from A to Z. So volunteers full out Saturdays, Sundays, weekend after weekend after weekend to get this accomplished on a shoestring, but properly and still involving people. That was as much part of it as anything. It's one thing to pay for everything to get done and come on in. We created this beautiful jewel box for you. But it's another thing to have people go, I created this. I helped open these doors. I painted this door. That was huge. 35 �Toby Jenkins: So tell us about the grand opening, and the Field of Dreams, dinners, andSue Welch: So the Field of Dreams, we did have requirements because we were changing the use from what it was previously to a public space. So we had to create more accessible ramps, elevators, doorways, things like that, and all that added up to quite some expense. So our first official event here was called the Field of Dreams. If we build it, they will come. And so we had volunteers in softball uniforms, and we had teams thatToby Jenkins: Cute gay boys. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Marcy Smith: We had team captains. Sue Welch: Not girls in softball uniforms. Marcy Smith: We had team captains, so it was baseball teams and it was a competition. Sue Welch: So they were bidding against each other. There was nothing they were gonna win. There were no prizes. There were no auction items. This was full-out cash. They were playing against each other, and we raised all the money, over $130,000 cash, that night without any auction items to do all of the ADA requirements. Marcy Smith: And it was adopting rooms. So these were concept drawings of what the various spaces were gonna be. So if you were a kitchen person, or you were interested in the library, or the art gallery, the theater. That was really great to have those concept drawings, so that people could visualize what this incredible space was gonna look like, based on the town halls, and what they said they wanted in the space. So we were able to give 'em pretty much everything they asked for. The other thing I remember, too, is the size of the building, okay? So we were at 3,500 square feet. This facility is 18,000 square feet. We got so much pushback from, are you kidding me? You're never gonna be able to fill that space. Sue Welch: We don't need that. Marcy Smith: .. We don't need that space. And here we are, nearly 20 years later, and in my opinion, we could add on a few places, but. Toby Jenkins: So any details about the grand opening? I'm trying to remember. Sue Welch: I remember, we did balloons, 'cause at that time- 36 �Marcy Smith: We did an non-environmental thing. Sue Welch: - we were not that environmentally conscious. I'm sorry, I apologize. Marcy Smith: We released balloons. Sue Welch: But we did have a bagpiper on the roof, which was really cool. Everyone was just so thrilled, and walking through the place. It was just giddy, giddying us, it was wonderful. Marcy Smith: Smudging, blessing the building. People laying hands on the building. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Good energy. Sue Welch: It was. Toby Jenkins: ... American blessings. Marcy Smith: Yes, yes. Sue Welch: It was good energy. Toby Jenkins: And then we moved in. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And the programs began. Sue Welch: And the programs began. And yes, if you build it, they will come. It's absolutely true. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Sue Welch: Given the proper leadership, and we had such great leadership then, and people pushing for great programs. Toby Jenkins: And so prior to this, we would have these huge meetings or events. We would have to rent space, or we would have to cram into whatever place we had. I can remember many, many things that we would use in those other spaces. Or when the sodomy laws were struck down, we didn't have a big enough space, so we had to use a restaurant on Cherry Street. But then this building finally had enough space that if we could mobilize and fight for our communitySue Welch: Yeah. 37 �Toby Jenkins: - Celebrate, remember those. I mean, it became a place where people did their funerals, their commitment ceremonies, and where we met for meetings to fight for our rights. Sue Welch: Yeah. Yeah, we could celebrate and mobilize and honor each other in our own home. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember some of the major events that this building was here to witness and testify to? Marcy Smith: Well, legalized same-sex marriage for number one. But also it becoming a hub for pride. So that we could centralize pride activities, which was really pretty cool to be able to do that. Otherwise, we were renting, leasing space to try to do pride events. We're not without negative things happening, and one of the things that wasn't publicized at the time that we did it but we did it for safety was, we put bulletproof glass in this building because we felt that at some point, unfortunately, that may be needed. And so we had a drive-by shooting in this building and thankfully, the bulletproof glass did its job. So never more thankful to have that particular decision to save people ... – [Bullet-resistant glass was not initially installed. It was added in 2017 after a drive-by shooting from a pellet gun made 13 holes in the front windows and front door. Wes Smith, an OkEq member, challenged the community to send in $13 each to replace the glass. The challenge went viral, people across the country and world sent in money. In total, more than $33,000 was committed which allowed OkEq to replace all downstairs windows and the front door with bullet-resistant glass.] Toby Jenkins: So do you remember when the sodomy laws were struck down, we celebrated at a restaurant, but the next major event was when gays were allowed to be in the military ... . And do you remember the events around that? Sue Welch: So yes, we were able to celebrate that in a fantastic way and we actually created the veterans lobby here, top second floor, off the elevator. And then another pivotal time ... Toby Jenkins: And we ... - just a minute. We invited military recruiters to come to this ... . Sue Welch: That's right, that's right. Toby Jenkins: And they came all the way from where, the Pentagon. Sue Welch: Fantastic, yes. That's right ... . 38 �Toby Jenkins: And we became the very first place in the United States where gay people served, signed up to join the military. We were the face of that on the front page of 1900 newspapers the next day in the heartland, in the middle of the country. Sue Welch We were also because of Mary and Sharon and Gay and Sue and were able to celebrate the pivotal gay marriage right here, in the center, with those ladies here in Tulsa. So yeah, so many pivotal things here. Toby Jenkins: Remember when the White House came to visit, when we got behind the Affordable Care Act cause we knew we needed to sign people up so that Obamacare, and they sent a representative here 'cause we had signed up 147 people in one day. Sue Welch: It's fantastic. It's fantastic, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So Sue, you called it the field of dreams. Why did you call it the field of dreams? Sue Welch: Because if we build it, they will come. Toby Jenkins: And did they come? Sue Welch: They did, and actually even more, in more numbers than I dreamed. I mean the programming and Toby, I know you're greatly responsible for a lot of that programming that started happening. And the people upon people, upon people who came and had fun or had a service or were recognized and seen or just got to be able to be with their family, their LGBTQ+ family, just people fill this place the whole entire time, all the time. I know I would get update calls from you saying how many people had come and what pivotal help had been given to certain people that day. Just incredible. Marcy Smith: Well, saving lives. Sue Welch: Absolutely, saving lives. Marcy Smith: People who were at the end of their rope. I mean, just needing a place to come where they can literally walk in the door. Sue Welch: ... you're safe. Marcy Smith: Yes, this is a safe place. Sue Welch: A safe affirming place. 39 �Toby Jenkins: So you spent a lot of work for the community to make this happen, and on behalf of the community, the LGBTQ+ community, I wanna say thank you so much for that. Any regrets about it? Sue Welch: None. Marcy Smith: None. Sue Welch: None. And I have to say there were so many hundreds of people behind us who really made it happen, who made it a success. We were just able to drive some of it. Toby Jenkins: So this is a- in 2026 and you ladies are moving into your middle age years. Marcy Smith: Thank you for that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: There were some difficult times, 'cause just because we had the building doesn't mean- I mean, we've had some vandalism, we've had physical threats, we've had some deaths, some heartaches, and we've had some other challenges too. You just didn't hang up your hats and say, we're done helping the community or being involved. What have you had to do in the last few years? Sue Welch: So things were rocking along really great for a while. We got some breathing time and just having fun with friends and things. But there were some individuals, boards, leaderships, that didn't go through what all of us went through. They didn't go through the turmoil and the trial and the difficulties that all of us went through. They're a younger generation, they grew up being able to be married, they grew up with less offense to them, they grew up being able to put their partner's picture on their office desk. Just so different from us. When some younger leadership, I think I'll just categorize it that way, came in, I don't think it was- they had less ownership. So, COVID came and that changed everything for everybody. But generationally, I think we're significantly different in that. We like to gather physically together and COVID made that really difficult. So coming out of that, changes started happening. We noticed we weren't getting notices about things happening at the center, even post-COVID. It seemed there was less going on. People weren't gathering at the center. We didn't reactivate those activities and events and things for people to physically gather. As the world did, we all became a little more siloed. So I think we lost a lot of interest, funding, relativity during that time. 40 �In February of 2024, we got a notice saying that the organization needed to raise $100,000 to keep the doors open. We were in shock. And so we met up with some people and said, "What's going on here? What's happening?" And so Marcy and I, thanks to some people, we were asked to be on the gala committee that year. We were generously given the leeway to co-chair the gala. And fortunately, we kinda did our thing. We've done a lot of galas. Well, by the gala committee, we were generously offered to co-chair the gala. We had leadership difficulty. I was coming in, again, as old lesbians going, "What do you know?" I mean, that was an old time. You can't do anything for us. And we had a hard time not going ... listen to whippersnappers. This is how it was. So ultimately, that gala was the highest grossing and highest net gala in OkEq’s history. And we were able to really build up our coffers again, and keep us open and keep the center going and alive. Marcy Smith: In 90 days. Sue Welch: Yeah, in a very short time. Marcy Smith: There was no one chairing this. It was not gonna happen. Sue Welch: Yeah, there was not gonna be a gala. We even had foundations tell us, "You should not be having a gala right now." And we said, "For two reasons. We have to have a gala. We must have a gala. One, of course, for the fundraising. And, we know we can do this. Two, for the community. Because our community has scattered to the winds. And we need to bring them back together." Toby Jenkins: So we talked about the pandemic, and we talked about the financial challenges the organizations have, and we've talked about generational differences, and- but we also have political issues that are impacting our community. It's 2026, so as your sign-off message, I've asked you to think about this. Do you have a challenge, or a message, or a final words that you'd like to give to people who might see this, and either feel the motivation to get involved, or maybe even have an explanation of how important it is? Do you have any final words for our viewers? Sue Welch: You go first. Marcy Smith: I would say that don't discount having a place, a physical place. I have an IT background and we're in a virtual world at this point, but there is so much in life, especially in a human experience, virtual stuff cannot give you and provide you that connection that you have to have by just being in the same space with people who support you, and that you can provide fine services. 41 �The whole point of this Center was for it to be a resource center for people. We didn't think that we were gonna be all things to all people, but we wanted to have a hub, a place where the organization could also work with other organizations to provide services to people, and to have a gathering place for us, and we're seeing this. We are seeing this in the world now. We are seeing psychological studies coming out about how this isolationism, and being at home, and this whole virtual reality, if you will, it's not. It's not real. What is real is being with people, engaging with people, celebrating with people, having really hard times with people. It's a human experience. It cannot be replaced with technology. That's my background, and I know that. And so it's about having a home and a place to come back to. And supporting an organization that's going to help our community be a better place. Not just the LGBTQ+ community, but other members in this community we call home, we call Tulsa, reaching out to other organizations to help in that effort, because it's a tough time, and funding is getting ripped out from non-profits. They are literally facing their demise. National public Radio… all of these things that we held to be, assumed that it was always gonna be here, always thought we would have public funding for the arts, really. Always thought we would have freedom of speech, thought we would have freedom of the press. The press is what is gonna hold our elected officials accountable, in addition to us. So we are at a really, really tough time, and it has been set on fire because of technology. Because we are not gathering together. Because we're holed up in our respective places, and we've got to come together again. We've got to support each other again in a physical way, in addition to a technological way. And having a home that is a place where we can gather, where we can rally, where we can figure out strategies to do this, is really important because if the decision is ever made to lose this space, then we become invisible again. They, whoever they are succeeded. They don't have a place to call home anymore. They don't have a place to gather anymore. They don't have a place to rally. They don't have a place to celebrate our artists. They don't have a place for our performers to come. They don't have a place to have counseling. Transgendered individuals don't have a place to have health care. We don't have a- we're burning books, and we're banning books. We don't have a library anymore to celebrate that aspect. All of these things are here for anyone who wants to come in and celebrate LGBTQIA+ individuals as a community, but as a community, as an accepting and affirming community that we call home. And that's Tulsa. It's so much more than a physical building, and that's where I would say, generationally moving forward, I hope that you all 42 �can understand how important the space is to maintain. Can we change the space? Absolutely. Can we change up the different things that are here? Absolutely. That's what a home's all about. It evolves and it changes as we need it to change. But I am hopeful and lay this on the table for folks coming behind us, please keep it. Please figure out how to keep it. Make it your own, make it evolve and change as our needs change. But allowing it to go away, I think, will be a grave mistake for our community. And I'm not saying that it is. I'm not saying that it is. But I think there are individuals out there that feel that we don't need a space to call our own, where we can celebrate each other, a physical space. And home is a really big word, encompasses a lot of things. Sue Welch: I really couldn't say any better than that, but just to say that, when you lose something that so many people have identified with, you lose your identity. When you don't communicate to every group, not just the current generation, but every group, about what's here for them. When you don't have physical group meetings, people physically gathering in large groups, that sounds scary to some people now, just because of COVID, but we have to have face-to-face large groups to support each other. The harder it gets politically, financially, the more we need to physically gather and we have our home to do it in. So let's not lose that, let's not take it for granted, let's use it. Toby Jenkins: This is perfect. So while you're the CP's ambassadors, called them the Iron Lady, Madam Prime Minister, was my nicknames for them. What are you presently doing? I mean what do you- your careers and the work that you do now? Sue Welch: Well, we are entrepreneurial. We own a business together called OsteoStrong, which is a wellness center that focuses on increasing your bone density, your muscular strength and your ligament and tendon strength. That's healthy for everybody. We have over 300 members. We're loving it and we do have some of our community members who are also OsteoStrong members and we do love that. We garden, we travel, we've loved that forever. I serve as a trustee again on the Board of Trustees for Oklahomans For Equality. Toby Jenkins: In your medical practice there, you're focusing a lot on issues with the emerging, growing older adult population, so that you're still serving a community, every aspect of it. Sue Welch: Sure, sure. Toby Jenkins: Anything else for us and our founder. Do you have any other things or archivist any things, before we bring our interview to a close? 43 �Sue Welch: I just wanna say thank you to all of you for all the work you're doing and have done, because we could not have done anything, any of this without you. Amanda Thompson: Yeah, no, it's great. And thank you guys for sharing this. And as the one youngster in the room, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you're saying and the stuff you talk about is really important. I'm personally very lucky and very happy to be a part of furthering those connections and helping people just get the word out, how important these things are. Sue Welch: Thank you, Amanda. Marcy Smith: We have to pay it forward. Amanda Thompson: Yeah. Marcy Smith: We do. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, thank you so much. You have been listening toMarcy Smith: Marcy Smith. Sue Welch: Sue Welch. Toby Jenkins: - here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on January the 16th, 2026. Addendum: Sue Welch requested the following be added to the transcript. "My Dad, Lloyd Welch was a 3rd generation brick mason and builder. He helped with the initial renovation when we bought the building for the Dennis R Neill Equality Center. He taught volunteers and various friends many skills that we needed during that time to get the building ready. He taught and worked with Stan Smalts, Dale Tune and Marty Steinmetz, replacing and hanging exterior doors; David Hoot patching interior plaster walls; Norm Kopp tuck pointing worn brick exterior wall joints of the building, as well as many other tasks with other volunteers. He had a great time with the guys and they with him. They all really appreciated learning from him. Some of them even took the skills they learned from our volunteer efforts into their own lives later as well. My Mom, Joan Welch provided moral encouragement and cheerleading support during that time filled with physical work. We would all break for lunch in the garage, now the Lynn Riggs Theatre. Nancy McDonald, everyone's Mom, brought cookies for snacks every weekend for the volunteer crew. It was a fantastic time of camaraderie, hard work and joy!" 44 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Interview Description An account of the resource Sue Welch and Marcy Smith share their personal journeys, highlighting their experiences growing up in Oklahoma and navigating their identities as members of the LGBTQ+ community. Marcy recounts her childhood in Tulsa, her education at Oklahoma Christian College, and her early awareness of her sexual orientation. She reflects on the challenges faced by LGBTQ+ individuals in a conservative environment, including the need for stealth and the importance of finding community. Sue shares her upbringing in Ponca City and her academic journey at OSU. Both women discuss their relationships, the evolution of their identities, and the significance of community support in their lives.<br /><br />Marcy and Sue recount their involvement with Oklahomans for Equality and the development of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. They reflect on the challenges of coming out to their families, the societal pressures they faced, and the importance of creating a safe space for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. Their stories are filled with humor, resilience, and a sense of belonging, showcasing the power of love and community in overcoming adversity. In this episode, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their inspiring journey of establishing a community center for the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They successfully organized fundraising events, such as house parties and the Wild Hearts Ball, to raise awareness and funds. Their determination led to significant milestones, including securing a $10,000 grant from a New York foundation and eventually purchasing a permanent space for their community center, which became a hub for support, celebration, and activism.<br /><br />The conversation highlights the importance of physical spaces for community gathering, especially in a time when virtual connections are prevalent. Marcy and Sue emphasize the need for ongoing support and engagement within the community, particularly in light of recent political challenges. They reflect on the center's role in pivotal moments for LGBTQ+ rights, including the legalization of same-sex marriage and the repeal of discriminatory laws. Their message is clear: maintaining a physical home for the community is essential for fostering connection, support, and resilience against adversity. Subject The topic of the resource Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Oral History Interview from January 16, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sue Welch, Marcy Smith, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 16, 2026 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Equality Center Opening Gay marriage HIV HIV/AIDs interview LGBT marriage Marcy Smith OHR OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Christian College Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU Pyramid Project same sex marriage Sue Welch Toby Jenkins TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Wild Hearts Ball Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Murrel Wilmoth Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 22, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on October 22, 2005 (Laura misspeaks at the beginning of the interview and says it is the 21st). <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Murrel was born on April 4, 1932, in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. At the age of four, his family moved to Tulsa, graduated from Daniel Webster High School and attended Oklahoma A&amp;M (now Oklahoma State University) for 2 years and then joined the Coast Guard for four years, serving in California. He completed his degree at OSU, then returned to California for seven years before coming back to Tulsa in 1965, after which he started his coming out process. Murrel worked in the Tulsa Planning Commission office, became involved with the Metropolitan Community Church and Prime Timers, an organization for older gay men. He discussed his network of friends and the “don’t ask, don’t tell” environment in Tulsa in the 1970s, 1980s. At age 92, Murrel passed away on February 25, 2025, in Tulsa. His obituary is included in an addendum to his transcript. Subject The topic of the resource Murrel Wilmoth Oral History Project Interview from October 21, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Murrel Wilmoth, Laura Belmonte, Jensen Bridges, Matthew D. Williams, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill interview Jensen Bridges Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Matthew D. Williams Matthew Williams Metropolitan Community Church Murrel Wilmoth Obituaries Obituary OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU Prime Timers Primetimers transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Ken Youngblood Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 22, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on August 22, 2004. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Ken was born November 22, 1949, in Vinita, Oklahoma. From sixth grade through high school, he played the piano and organ at the local Baptist Church. He attended high school in Jay, Oklahoma, married in 1971, went to Northeastern State University in Tahlequah, Oklahoma and obtained a degree in Music. He divorced in 1973 and came out soon after. Ken attended graduate school at the University of Oklahoma in Norman. In 1975, Ken moved to Tulsa and attended a hairstyling school and later opened a flower shop after working in the floral department of a local grocery. Ken discussed his early experiences in the gay scene in Tulsa and his first drag appearances, including participating in the Follies fundraiser for Oklahomans for Human Rights. In 1994, the well-known Tulsa artist Pat Gordon asked Ken to model in drag as part of a series of such works over the next few years. He discussed his awareness of AIDS and its impact in Tulsa and his volunteer work with the helpline maintained by Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. In 1992, Ken and his long-time partner had a well- known “wedding” attended by some 300 gay and straight people. Subject The topic of the resource Ken Youngblood Oral History Project Interview from August 22, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ken Youngblood, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center follies HIV/AIDs interview Ken Youngblood Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Northeastern State University Northeastern State University (NSU) NSU OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OU Pat Gordon TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Oklahoma University of Oklahoma (OU) video