2 20 55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2021] John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' Interview Subject The topic of the resource John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from March 18, 2021 Description An account of the resource John was interviewed on March 18, 2021, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project. In the interview, John discusses his involvement in the LGBT community and as a two-spirit leader and elder at Oklahomans for Equality and for the Muscogee Nation Behavioral Health. <strong>A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the History Project Archives at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke', Arlowe Clementine, Matthew D. Williams, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 18, 2021 2021 Arlowe Clementine available at Center Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project interview John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' Matthew D. Williams Micki White Muscogee Nation Muscogee Nation Behavioral Health Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project OSU Oral History Project transcript two spirit two-spirit https://history.okeq.org/files/original/80a666c71fa7d00ebe6c35e6c3cd5029.mp4 a529e7f8f4fac75bb63c5db6e403adfb https://history.okeq.org/files/original/1fb8011913addc5505031ad0b07566bc.pdf a0af57e73d112460472ed6b6c2955e74 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Gordon George Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: February 3, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video February 8, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Gordon George Keywords Gordon George, LGBTQ history, Tulsa, community, coming out, AIDS crisis, activism, volunteer work, identity, equality Takeaways ● Gordon George shares his early life in Oswego, Kansas. ● He discusses the challenges of fitting in during school. ● Moving to Tulsa was a pivotal moment for Gordon's identity. ● He recalls his first experiences in the gay community. ● Gordon's involvement in LGBTQ activism began in the 80s. ● He faced challenges during the AIDS crisis and supported affected friends. ● Coming out to his family was a significant turning point. ● Gordon reflects on the changes in the LGBTQ community over the years. ● He emphasizes the importance of volunteering and community support. ● Gordon encourages future generations to appreciate and protect their rights. 2 �Summary In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 03:04 School Experiences and Identity 05:55 Moving to Tulsa and Discovering Community 09:05 Exploring Sexuality and Relationships 11:59 Involvement in the LGBTQ Community 14:59 Challenges and Triumphs in the 80s 18:08 Family Dynamics and Coming Out 20:59 AIDS Crisis and Community Support 24:03 Volunteering and Activism 27:05 Reflections on Change and Progress 30:00 Current Involvement and Future Outlook Gordon George Oral History Interview February 3, 2026 Toby Jenkins: This is February the 3rd on Tuesday in 2026, and we're here in the Nancy and Joe Rainbow Library at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. And today, we are interviewing Gordon George. And Gordon, can you tell us your name and your date of birth? Gordon George: Gordon George, 10-5-53. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. And where were you born? Gordon George: Oswego, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Oswego, Kansas. And about where is that located? Gordon George: Southeast Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Southeast Kansas, so not far from the Oklahoma line? Gordon George: Right. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And is that a little town, big town? Gordon George: Little. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They don't even have a hospital anymore. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do they still have a full high school and all of that? Gordon George: As far as I know, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. So you were born there and is that where your parents are from? Gordon George: They're from Southeast Kansas, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your dad's name and what is your mom's name? Gordon George: Freddy was my dad. My mother was Stella. Toby Jenkins: Stella? And are they still living? Gordon George: My dad's still kicking, 92. Toby Jenkins: 92 years old. Gordon George: And mother's been gone 23 years. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What was their careers? What did they do forGordon George: My dad was a teamster. Toby Jenkins: Oh. Gordon George: And mother was a homemaker and then she went into tax preparation. Did that for many years. Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings? Do you have siblings? Gordon George: I have one brother and a sister. I was the middle child. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Are they both still with us? Gordon George: No. My brother died twelve years ago, I think. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And my sister's still with us. She lives near Kansas City. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were you ever married? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: So you don't have any children that you know of? 4 �Gordon George: No. I know there's no children. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. All right. So your father's still living. Where did you go to school? Gordon George: Independence, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: And so did your family move to Independence, Kansas, or? Gordon George: Yes. We moved to Coffeyville when I was very young. And we moved to Independence when I was in the third grade. Toby Jenkins: And what was Independence like? Gordon George: Horrible. Toby Jenkins: The school you mean or just the city? Gordon George: It was a clicky town. Very clickish. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And I have no desire to go back other than to see my dad. Toby Jenkins: So no warm feelings, or? Gordon George: Oh, no, no, no. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you moved there in the third grade, was it difficult? New kid in that school. Did you not feel welcome, or? Gordon George: Oh, in grade school, it wasn't so bad. It's junior high and high school is when it got rough. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Because I didn't feel I fit in. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because you weren't from Independence and you all had moved there or because of your religion or your ethnicity or because youGordon George: We lived south of Main Street. We didn't live on the good side of town. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And people looked at that, where you live. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So I just- it's still that way. That town's still that way. Toby Jenkins: Still very clickish and segregated according to class. Gordon George: Yes. 5 �Toby Jenkins: And according to a person's- how much money they make. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because people's descriptions of small towns are that they're wonderful and welcoming and everybody's so close and looks after each other. But that wasn't your experience. Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Where did you go to high school? Gordon George: Independence. Toby Jenkins: And what year did you graduate? Gordon George: '71. Toby Jenkins: 1971. Okay. And did you go on to technical school? Were you in the military? Gordon George: I attended junior college. I didn't graduate. And I moved to Oklahoma in '79. Toby Jenkins: '79? Now, where did you go to junior college? Gordon George: Independence. Toby Jenkins: Independence. Oh, there's a junior school and college there? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And then I came- when I moved here, I went to Tulsa Junior College here for a couple courses. I did some- I got my real estate license with Tulsa Tech here in Tulsa, so. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been in '79 when you moved to Tulsa? Gordon George: Yes, I think so. Toby Jenkins: So how did you decide to move to Tulsa? Gordon George: To get out of that. Toby Jenkins: To get out of Independence? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Right. So you went to high school there. I mean did you have a job there in Independence for a while? Gordon George: I worked for Southwestern Bell. 6 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Is that what brought you to Tulsa? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: You were able to transfer? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, perfect. And what was that like in the 1970s? Working with- what did you do with Southwest Bell? Gordon George: I was actually- when I started, I started as a cord board operator. The Lily Tomlin. Toby Jenkins: Really? Gordon George: Yeah. Actually doing the cords into the switchboard. Toby Jenkins: So if I had called there in the 70s, you would have answered and you would have transferred my call or you would have made a long distance call or did you do information? What was yourGordon George: All of it. Toby Jenkins: All of it. Gordon George: Okay. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And I came to Oklahoma and went into information from there and then went into sales at the phone store. Toby Jenkins: How neat. Mall Bell. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's what brought you to Tulsa. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Now, since you were never married, what pronoun do you use? How do you identify your gender? Gordon George: I'm a gay male. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you identify as a gay man. Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember- we've talked about how you weren't happy in Independence and that you felt some isolation. Did you have an awareness that you were gay or that you had same-sex attraction? 7 �Gordon George: Oh yeah. Starting back in junior high school. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you began to have those feelings and you knew what that was. Okay. And did you have resources? I mean did you go to the library and look in a book or did you just kind of knew what that meant? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of awareness that there were other people in your school who were like you? Gordon George: One. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you ever feel like some of your unhappiness in junior high and high school had to do with- did anybody bully you or make you feel like you were different? Gordon George: Oh, I was bullied, yes. Particularly one gentleman or one kid. I don't know if- why he targeted me. But paybacks are hell. He died young. Toby Jenkins: Oh, mercy. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you don't really, you don't feel like you were bullied in high school because they perceived you were different, or? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you said that you were in junior high when you had these feelings. When you moved to Tulsa with Southwestern Bell, I still- I just think that's fascinating that you were- you used the Lily Tomlin one ringy dingy to the switchboard operator. Which- I'm just out of curiosity, I don't know that I ever called information and ever got a male voice. Did you ever hear anybody be surprised that it was a male sounding voice that answered the line or? Gordon George: Not so much because we had a female that sounded like a guy. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So there was two of us. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And of course my voice was a little high. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So. 8 �Toby Jenkins: Fascinating. So you had came to Tulsa. You were an adult, young adult. Did you realize you were gay? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And were ready to act upon it and? Gordon George: Yeah, first time in a gay bar when I came to Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: And do you remember what year that would have been? Gordon George: 80. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do you remember what the bar was, the club? Gordon George: Tim's Playroom. Toby Jenkins: Tim's Playroom. Okay. And how did you find out about Tim's Playroom? Gordon George: A co-worker invited me to go. Toby Jenkins: So you had a gay co-worker? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And he invited me to go with him, and we went to the bar. First time I was in a bar. Toby Jenkins: And what was your thoughts that first experience of being in a space where there were other people like you? And it was that nobody could look into it. The windows were covered overGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - and you could beGordon George: And it was a drag show that day, too. Toby Jenkins: Oh, was it? That's the first time you'd ever? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Do you remember your feelings that day, or? Gordon George: I was nervous as hell. Toby Jenkins: Really? Gordon George: Yeah. 'Cause I didn't know what to expect. I just really didn't know what going to a gay bar was gonna entail. I had no idea, so. Toby Jenkins: Now, had you had an intimate relationship prior to going to the gay bar? I mean, had you had an intimate9 �Gordon George: ... back in junior high. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Same one, over and over. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So that was when you explored your sexuality? Gordon George: He brought me out, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you knew from junior high on that you were attracted to your same sex? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So when you moved to Tulsa, you had this co-worker. Did you begin to explore other relationships with gay men? Gordon George: Yes, but not with my co-worker. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you went to Tim's playroom. Did that become kind of something you did on a regular basis? Went to gay bars andGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Most weekends. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Because at work, you couldn't be out, right? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: I mean, that was a ... . Gordon George: Well, it wasn't so much. I think people perceived that if you worked as an operator, that maybe you were gay, as a perception. But I wasn't out. I wasn't open about it. Toby Jenkins: What was the community like, that you found in the clubs and the bars? Gordon George: More accepting than I thought it would be. Toby Jenkins: So you're just a boy from KansasGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - Land in the big city. And what was Tulsa like in those days? Gordon George: Other than the bars, I didn't do much, 'cause of the hours that I worked with Bill. 'Cause there's times that I worked nights and late evenings. Go in at six o'clock and get off at midnight. Or go in at 06:00 and stay till 02:00, it just depends. 10 �Gordon George: So it kinda- and there was more one-on-one in those days with your customers online, or on the phone than there is today. Because they had to physically ask for addresses and stuff like that if we could even give it out. And more interaction with the publicToby Jenkins: Oh, yeah. Gordon George: - Than there is today. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you called information for everything. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: There were even songs about information. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you had went to Tim's playroom, and that's how you first connected with the gay community in Tulsa? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. It's the early 80s, late 70s in Tulsa. Did you go to any theater programs, any sports events? And just a part of the culture in Tulsa thatGordon George: Yeah. We'd do public events, like when they had ice skating at the downtown. We'd go to the Nutcracker during the holidays on ice. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Gordon George: Go do that kinda thing and let it out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tulsa had a downtown mall in those daysGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: - Built around, I think it's called the Galleria, wasn't it? Dennis Neill: Forum. Toby Jenkins: Forum, called the Forum. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Galleria was in Dallas. So you would do things like that, social events. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Now, when you went to this club, did you meet some other guys, and they kinda became your posse, or your clique of friends, or? Gordon George: No, it was more introduction through the co-worker. Because he had been out for many years. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And he introduced me to some of his friends. We'd become a circle of friends that would do things, mainly go to the bars. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you remember some of the other clubs that you might've went to? You keep saying the bars. Gordon George: Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Went to Zippers, okay. And what was Zippers? Gordon George: It was a high-energy bar. Toby Jenkins: Like a disco? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And of course, The Bamboo. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah, whichGordon George: That was a trash bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but it had been there forever. Yeah, it's one of the oldest. And it was in the north part of Tulsa. The Zippers was Midtown, like 31st and Yale. Gordon George: Yale. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So were there any- through the clubs, were you aware of any things like gay softball leagues, gay churches? Gordon George: Gay churches. I attended Metropolitan Community for a while. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And where was it located? Gordon George: North Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So I know that they also had a congregation in Jenks at one time, but you went to the north Tulsa location on Queen. It was on Queen. Gordon George: I couldn't tell you. Toby Jenkins: And- so you were connected to that. What about any of the gay softball programs, or what about pride picnics? Gordon George: I had- I- when they had it at Mohawk Park, I drove through it once. I thought, no, I can't do this. Toby Jenkins: And why was that? Gordon George: The crowd, and I just didn't feel comfortable. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Was it because of visibility, or just the large crowd? Gordon George: More the large crowd. Toby Jenkins: Okay, yeah. So that was the- that would've been the early 80s, and you were still with Southwest Bell. Were you staying in contact with your family? I mean, it's pretty common for gay men, lesbian women to move from small towns to bigger cities, where there can be some distance between their families in those days because they didn't wanna embarrass their families, or they wanted their life- their adult life to be private. Were you still in contact with your parents and independents? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: It didn't change. I mean, I didn't come out to my family until '85, '86. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what was that like? Gordon George: It was in a fit of rage. Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us a little bit about that. Gordon George: I had been to- I was living in Oklahoma City at the time. I went home for Christmas and my brother was there, and we didn't get along, and my mother kept harping at me, why don't you get along with your brother? Why don't you get along with your brother? You need to do this, do that. Gordon George: And that's the first time I told my mother to shut up. I'd had enough. Packed my bags and left. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So- and that's when- later that spring is when I came out to my family. Toby Jenkins: Okay, the whole family, or just your parents, or your mom, or? Gordon George: My mom and sister. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and how did they handle that? Gordon George: Better than I thought. Mother and I became good friends after that. When I moved to Oklahoma City and then moved back to Tulsa, she would go to the bars with me, and yeah, we would- and there were times we would- just the two of us would go out and have drinks. Sit and talk for hours. 'Cause she lived with me for a while too. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did she enjoy hanging around with your friends and going to theGordon George: Oh yeah, she was good. She was okay with it, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. 13 �Gordon George: When I was also involved in the Tulsa AIDS Task Force. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that's what's going on. Gordon George: And we would do barbecues and stuff. We had a big barbecue out at Inola and they supplied the beef for it. They had a calf slaughtered andToby Jenkins: Oh, a family in Inola did it, or? Gordon George: No, my family. Toby Jenkins: Oh, your parents? Oh wonderful. Gordon George: They provided the beef. Toby Jenkins: And so it was a fundraiser for? Gordon George: Tulsa AIDS Task Force. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That's the first time I've heard that name. Dennis Neill: That was a group that the United Way and Community Service Council had pulled together. All the conveners that met, and then eventually it's been off to Tulsa Cares. Does that sound right? Gordon George: I couldn't tell you. Toby Jenkins: But it's called the Tulsa AIDS Task Force? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. We were the fundraisers for them. Toby Jenkins: For the programs for people living with HIV AIDS? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and that would've been mid-80s? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And by then, apparently, your family was supporting you, your parents, especially if they were going to gay clubs with you and donating beef for a cookout. Do you remember the first time you heard about AIDS? Gordon George: I had seen it on the news, but I didn't know. I had a friend that asked me to get involved with the task force to help with the fundraising. Toby Jenkins: Did you know people in those early days, who had AIDS and were dying? Or do you rememberGordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: With the church, I was on the RAIN team. 14 �Toby Jenkins: At Metropolitan Community Church, they're a RAIN team? And what did a RAIN team do? Gordon George: We went to support families and patients with HIV. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And I've seen too many die, so I had to quit doing it. It was too rough. Toby Jenkins: When you say too many died, like there were five or six people that died, or was there dozens, or what was it like forGordon George: That I was involved with, it was probably four or five. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And then, I had a personal friend that became ill. Toby Jenkins: And so what was that like in those days? You found out your friends had AIDS. What were your thoughts? Tell us what that was like in those days. Gordon George: It was bad. It was tough, especially the friend that I- I was working fulltime. He needed help. And I quit my job. Spent the last couple months of his life helping him. So and that was really bad, really tough. Toby Jenkins: And just took care of him? Gordon George: He went to- well, part of the fundraising that I had helped with, we give, if I remember right, about $10,000 to- I can't think of the name of it, Catholic Charities. They're home forToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And he's actuallyToby Jenkins: St. Joseph's ... . Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That was a hospice care center. Gordon George: Right. And that's where he was at, when he died. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So- and I was- it made me feel good that I would help raise the money to help support their organization, and they helped him. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So yeah, it was tough. And he was saying that, why he was- talking about why he was on earth. And I said, "Part of it was because you could be my friend." And that was tough. And I was with him when he took his last breath. So his mother and I were with him. 15 �Toby Jenkins: So in those days, people were finding- they would find out they were ill. I mean, would they go to the doctor because they were feeling bad, or because they were being cautious? Gordon George: They'd go find out that they were ill. And when you found out you had HIV AIDS, there wasn't any kind of treatment plan that was keeping you alive longer in those early days. So people were gone pretty quick. Toby Jenkins: Or did people live with it for a while? Do you remember? Gordon George: Both. Toby Jenkins: Both? So some people lasted longer thanGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And what was the general attitude of the community in those days, like in the gay bars, did people act different with their behavior? Did they shun or isolate people once they found out they were sick, or were people being cautious or being careful not to spread it? Gordon George: They weren't as careful as they should've beenToby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: - back then. 'Cause it really hadn't hit home so much here in Oklahoma like it was on major metropolitan areas. So- but once it really got a hold here, people were thinking, oh, yeah, we need to be more careful and actually more responsive as far as fundraising, so…I met a lot of people during the fundraising, people that cared. Toby Jenkins: People outside the gay community, or justGordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The Perigos were one of them [Jerry and Peggy Perigo]. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah. Perigo family? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Who [Jerry Perigo] was the judge here in town. So this would have all been during the 80s, right? Gordon George: Right. 16 �Toby Jenkins: So you were involved with the Tulsa AIDS Task Force, and a part of RAIN, which was a care team associated with your church. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That provided care for people living with HIV AIDS. When did you begin to- did you start- were you still working at Southwest Bell? You said you quit your job to take care of your friend. Gordon George: Oh, no. I had left Southwestern Bell before that. I left Southwestern Bell in '85. Toby Jenkins: Okay. When did you- I know you're doing the work with the AIDS Task Force, what about relationships? Did you have a partner during those days? Did you haveGordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you just kinda hung out with the group? Gordon George: Right. Yeah. I didn't- yeah. It was not a pleasant time after I left Bell, and 'cause I did an odd job kinda things and wound up declaring bankruptcy and had to start all over. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So in the fundraising part, did you ever get involved with the quilts, the NAMES project, the AIDS quilts? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you were aware thatGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. I had seen it, but I wasn't involved in any of the organization part of it. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever participate in the annual follies that were big fundraisers for the HIV AIDS causes? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Big performance shows. Okay. When did you begin to get involved with TOHR? Did I ask if you ever went to any of the pride picnics, or the pride parades? Did you ever get involved with any of that? Gordon George: No. I didn't get involved until, what was it, '91, '92, maybe. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And it was when I was attending your church organization. That's when I got involved. 17 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that would've been later. That would have been about 1999 something. Gordon George: Was it that late? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. AndGordon George: Oh, okay. '99. Toby Jenkins: You're talking aboutGordon George: Yeah, '99. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you're talking about the Ekklesia group? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Which is a group for recovering evangelicals and who- wasn't really a church. It was kind of a Christian support group. And it would meet at the center, the TOHR center, which was in Highland Park. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: So that's where you've began to get involved and started volunteering with the organization. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do you… I know that at one year, you received 'Volunteer of the year' from TOHR- probably Oklahomans for Equality by then. And why were you given that award? Do you remember? Gordon George: For the help of working here on the building. Toby Jenkins: Yep. Gordon George: And doing…I got even the very first Thanksgiving dinner we had here I helped with. I wasn't in charge of it at that time, but I helped with it. So- and Kristi Freeman I think was ... Toby Jenkins: Kristi Freeman? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Who was on the board. Gordon George: Yeah, I helped her and then one year when Nancy McDonald helped with it andToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And then after that's when I actually started conducting it all. 18 �Toby Jenkins: So I know that you were very involved with the organization when they bought the building. And you're talking about, for a year we spent renovating. And Christy Frisbee, Sue Welch and some of those folks led some of the- we did it ourselves. Our gay boys were designers and our girls were good with power tools. So we were a perfect match and we did it ourselves, didn't we? You have to. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And so you spent some time down hereGordon George: Hanging sheet rock and that kinda stuff, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, ripping up carpet and pushing up old tile. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And we were proud to have it, weren't we? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you had been in Tulsa for a while. So you'd kind of saw an evolution where we had had smaller centers, that were kinda tucked into hidden places. All of a sudden we were right downtown. Yeah. I know that you also were very involved every time we had the big dances and the big events. Toby Jenkins: You always were in charge of the kitchen and the refreshments and for the fall-a-law ball. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And the Wild Hearts ball and volunteered at the Equality Gala. So you were very helpful and a very good organizer, especially when it came to setting things up and food service. So you talked about- you got involved with the Thanksgiving dinner. Can you kinda remember some details why we did that, why we had it? Gordon George: It was for people that didn't have families to go to. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and why would they not have had families to go to? Gordon George: A lot of their families disowned them. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: And I was fortunate enough, my family didn't disown me. Toby Jenkins: Right. And it was on- what day did we do it? Gordon George: Usually Thanksgiving Day. Toby Jenkins: And did you have to cook all the food or where did the food come from? Gordon George: A lot of the food was donated, but there was a couple times that I cooked the turkeys. 19 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Right. Gordon George: And I was- back on those days I thought I wouldn't do it today. Toby Jenkins: And so now, for anybody who's familiar with the Equality Center today, we have a commercial kitchen. But in those days ... Gordon George: Oh, no. Toby Jenkins: - we had the kitchen that we put together ourselves. Gordon George: Tiny hole-in-the-wall kitchen. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you'd have to serve hundreds of people ... . Okay. Gordon George: I think the most we served was 225. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so we talked about this. So we worked with the faith communities that were inclusive and welcoming. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And they kinda sponsored and would provide all the food. So it was like a massive potluck dinner and you had to coordinate all that. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And that was all served on Thanksgiving Day. But the food started coming in when? Gordon George: The day before, or ... Toby Jenkins: A couple of days. Yeah. Gordon George: Depends on the organization. Toby Jenkins: And you all would be back there preparing turkeys and hams and ... Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So- and we not only served people on Thanksgiving Day, we provided to-go meals for people who ... Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: You could call down here and we'd deliver those to you. About how many faith communities were involved, do you remember? Gordon George: Oh, eight, ten maybe. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Gordon George: Somewhere around there. I don't remember for sure. 20 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember the year of Muslims for Mercy or the- they were compassionate Muslims. They provided the turkey and it was seasoned with the Middle Eastern flavor. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Okay, so ... Gordon George: That's when I quit cooking turkeys after that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. But- so we did that, and it was called 'Come Home for the Holidays'. And we'd have a huge turnout. Transgender people who were not allowed to go home and present to their family as they identified. Gay couples who- they might be able to go home but they couldn't bring their boyfriend or their girlfriend home. And then it got to where entire families just came out to show support. And about how many people would help you work on that event. Gordon George: Oh, 15 maybe or 20, depends. Toby Jenkins: And then on Thanksgiving morning, how many people to get it all ready to go? Gordon George: Usually maybe 8 to 10. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Including my family. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, now tell us about how you got your family, talked into helping with this. Gordon George: I don't remember other than, I was involved with it and I wasn't going to their place. And at that point, my mother had died. So it was- can't go home. Home was changed. So we- I volunteered to keep- from thinking about Thanksgiving at home is no longerToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And so they would come here. My dad and my sister and brother-inlaw and my nieces and nephews andToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: They would all come. At one point, all came involved. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, your brother and his wife. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And their children, and yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. My brother, when he was alive, he was here when he could. And they lived in Collinsville. So it wasn't- it was easier for them to come and help. 21 �Toby Jenkins: But your sister was coming from where? Gordon George: Near Kansas City. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And it became a thing for over a decade. Gordon George: Yeah. Until COVID. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: COVID put an end to it. Toby Jenkins: So I know you volunteered with the Equality Gala. Did you volunteer at Pride too? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. I helped in the treasury departments. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Counted tickets and counted tickets. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. And that you were always available to help for just so many things that we were doing. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: I know today you're pretty involved in the Oklahomans for Equality's program for senior adults. Do you remember when you began to get involved with that? Originally, I think we called it SAGE butGordon George: I don't remember. It was when we were a smaller group and it was before the remodeling of the event center and the kitchen. It was before that that I was involved with SAGE when we met in the great hall. Toby Jenkins: So about 13, 14 years ago. Gordon George: I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Too many years ago to think about. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your reason for being involved with that? Gordon George: It was an outreach for being around gay people that were my age. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And much like the work you did with RAIN team and AIDS over the years, we've lost a lot of people who were involved in that program. Many, many, many people. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tell us some of the things that SAGE would do. Like, did we go see people, check on people? 22 �Gordon George: I wasn't involved in a lot of that. I would just come during the day 'cause of the hours that I worked in the company that I was working for. I worked a lot of nights. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So I didn't get to attend SAGE as much as I do now. Toby Jenkins: So I know- I wanna bring this up. I know you worked for companies and you understood they had corporate support for non-profits and you were able to get them to support- work here at the Equality Center. Gordon George: Right, they made a donation to us. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Was it Thanksgiving they would sponsor or was it the SAGE program ... Gordon George: No, it was ... - now that you mention it, I don't remember. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: I know they- it was during- it was closer to the holidays, yeah, so. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yep. So you understood the value of getting corporate support. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And they were willing to do it, weren't they, that company? Gordon George: Right. And I think that was- it happened a lot, when they had to do some diversity training because of the way I was treated at work. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: Particularly one, there are two people out there that were hateful. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And so, they had diversity training and I think that was what brought it out, that they give us money. Or even some of the people who were not happy, that they give the money to us, here. But they had to get over it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's interesting because presently in 2026, companies, anybody who does any kind of diversity, inclusion or equity or equality efforts, DEI as we call it, that's supposed, now companies are afraid to do that. And of course the administration in the White House has labeled that as woke and bad, and universities, and public institutions, and publicly funded institutions. And we've seen corporations step back from that for fear of retribution. But you knew why diversity training was important personally, because you had experienced discrimination in the workplace? Gordon George: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: And then your company23 �Gordon George: Put a stop to it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And said, we need to do more to make sure all of our LGBT employees feel valued. Gordon George: Yeah. And I wasn't the only one at that point. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: There was others that came out. And it wasn't just the level that I was at as far as an employee, there was even higher up. I mean one of the chemists came out. And so, it wasn't just a lowly production worker, so. And there were several. Toby Jenkins: Now just out of curiosity, you've told us your age. You had saw things change, hadn't you, in Oklahoma from when you first got to Tulsa? I know we've talked a lot about your time in Tulsa, so if I've corrected this, you've been here about 45 years in the Tulsa area. I think maybe there were some times you moved away and came back, is-you saw a lot of changes, especially for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and all the different letters of the acronym that we use for the gay community. There's been a lot of changes. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Right. Do you feel like, from the early days, where your life was pretty private work and gay bars were the dark, private places where we hid away from the general community, we couldn't walk down the street holding hands, we did have pride parades. Do you feel like Tulsa changed and became better? Gordon George: Yes, it improved. It was slow, but it kept improving to the point where it was more comfortable to be out, and OkEq was a big part of that for me to be comfortable on being out. The community was getting more involved. The city itself was becoming more involved. Toby Jenkins: The proclamations of Gay Day in the city and the mayor's backing on some things. Like naming the street Pride Street. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So- and even to the point, where they named one of the streets of a deceased police officer that was a lesbian. Toby Jenkins: Jennifer Mansell. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Absolutely. Who was on the Tulsa Police Department and had named a street. That was an incredible day. I remember that. That was our first openly gay person to be her and her wife, who was a Wagner County treasurer, so… 24 �Gordon George: Yeah. And so it really improved a lot in those years until who got in the White House and things. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And who in the White House? Gordon George: Trump. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: Donald J. Trump. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So it's safe to say that whoever we put in the White House, that impacts all of us. Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: It changes our world. Gordon George: Especially when they're negative. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So you saw things improve, and do you think it was because of the visibility? I know Oklahomans for Equality was doing lots of advocacy work, but do you feel like some of it might have been because of the visibility of LGBTQ people, then being more visible and open and out at work and faith communities changing their positions? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: I mean, when you came to Tulsa, MCC was the only church that had an official mission and dedicated to the LGBT community. There were congregations like 'All Souls' and some other churches that may have been supportive of the community, but even they had not come out with an official policy. You saw that all change where faith communities helped support the Thanksgiving meals and also were a part of the pride parades and were sponsors of the Equality Gala, so. Gordon George: And it continued to grow. The pride parades just kept growing and growing, and more of the community of Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Corporations and companies proud to be a part of it. Yeah. So I haven't asked this to anybody else, and I just thought I was gonna- I'm gonna ask this to somebody who's kinda saw things change. Why do you think we have so few gay bars? Because when you first came to Tulsa, there were lots of gay bars. Gordon George: There was. Toby Jenkins: And we now just have just a few left. I think at the time of this interview, I only know of two, Majestic and Eagle, and then I guess Yellow Brick Road probably identifies this. But why do you think things have changed there? 25 �Gordon George: I don't know. I wonder that myself. Why it's- especially as an older adult there's not a whole lot of places that I would go that I would feel comfortable, as a gay bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The Eagle, but I'm not so much into leather and- I'm not so much into going to the bars now, anyway. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So. Toby Jenkins: Do you think social media and used to, if you wanted a date, you had to go find 'em, right? Gordon George: Uh-huh. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And the places you found them was at the clubs. And you might meet people at work, but you were afraid to tell somebody at work for fear you're barking up the wrong tree. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like the social media, the dating websites, the mobile apps, the hookup apps. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like that has changed the way we connect and meet people? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, it was easier to get online and you still had to wonder, okay, is it safe to meet this person or not? Are they gonna beat the hell out of me when I get there? That kinda thing. But social media made a big difference. I don't know if it's so much that- well, I think it's still even more now why the attendance to gay bars is down. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: It's because of social media, people doing- hooking up online. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you have lived long enough to see things change. You've seen things improve. But you've also saw us having to refight the fightGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: - for stuff that we fought for. Gordon George: That's ongoing now. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. 26 �Gordon George: All the time, trying to protect the privileges and the rights that we got that they keep trying to roll back. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: And it's an ongoing battle. Toby Jenkins: Now, as you live your life, you're retired. And I know that you do a lot of volunteer work. So let's talk a little bit about that. And while we talk about that, I wanna know what your experience is. So I notice, let's start with you're branded today. And what is that? Gordon George: It's the ambassador program at the airport. Toby Jenkins: Tulsa International Airport. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And they are a great organization to volunteer for. And they take care of us quite well. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They feed us multiple times a year. They're feeding us next month. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The luncheon. Toby Jenkins: So they do a lot of volunteer appreciation? Gordon George: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And so today, that we're doing, this is a Tuesday. Did you volunteer today at the airport? Gordon George: Yes, 06:00 AM. Toby Jenkins: Had to be there at 06:00 AM? Gordon George: To 09:00, three hour shifts. Toby Jenkins: And so what do you do? Park planes? Do you scrub planes? What do you do? Gordon George: Well, basically, we just direct traffic for passengers. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. Gordon George: Where's the nearest restroom? How do I get through TSA? Where do I take my luggage? That kinda thing. 27 �Toby Jenkins: So you're at an information booth, or? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, alright. Gordon George: Or, as I'm what they call a roamer, which allows me to go in. I can go out on either concourse, A and B, and assist people out there, or assist people getting through TSA. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what is that experience like? Do you enjoy it? Gordon George: I love it. Toby Jenkins: Do you? Gordon George: It's a great place to people watch. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: A lot of eye candy. Toby Jenkins: A lot of hot, attractive men, okay. Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, now we know why you do it. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you do that how many times a week? Gordon George: I do twice a week, every other week. And then, sometimes on the fifth week of the month, I'll do extra. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, like holiday time, during holiday? Gordon George: I have done holiday extra. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Do they know you're gay? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do they treat you differently? Or do theyGordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: So do any of you other volunteers say, "Hey, Gordon, do you see that attractive man? Look at that." Gordon George: Oh, the straight women that we talk about. 28 �Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. Everybody's looking, right? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. How wonderful. And I wanna thank you, on behalf of our community, for being there at the airport. I know that can't be real easy. Okay, so you do that. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you volunteer at the Tulsa International Airport in the ambassador program. What else do you volunteer with? Gordon George: I help distribute Meals on Wheels. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: I work in the distribution center to help pack the packages that drivers take. I help with that. And then, I also do driving. Toby Jenkins: So you have to drive? Gordon George: The delivery, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you enjoy that? Gordon George: That's one day a week. Most of the time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? And you have to do that regardless of the weather, right? Gordon George: No, they shut us down. The recent weather that we've had? Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They shut us down. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but in the middle of a hot summerGordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: - or pouring down rain, you'll still have to do it. Gordon George: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And would you encourage people to be a part of that program? Do they need more volunteers? Gordon George: They always need volunteers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What else do you volunteer with? Gordon George: I volunteer with the SAGE group here. Of course, I do that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, with the seniors program here. Gordon George: Yeah. And I usher at the PAC in Broken Arrow. 29 �Toby Jenkins: And that's a volunteer position? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And what do you do there? Gordon George: Just as an usher. Toby Jenkins: Okay, andGordon George: Directing people to their seats. Toby Jenkins: - you don't get paid? You're just doing it? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Now, what would be the perks of that? Gordon George: You get to see the shows. Toby Jenkins: So where else is it you volunteer at? We were talking about the Broken Arrow PAC. Gordon George: Oh, so…I just lost my thought. Toby Jenkins: Well, let's talk a little bit about that cause I think we got cut off a little. So you're a volunteer over there. What are the perks about volunteering as an usher at the Broken Arrow Performing Arts Center? Gordon George: Well, I got to see Lily Tomlin. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And recently was Sandy Patty. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And other productions. Toby Jenkins: Have you ever been there when KristenChenoweth was there? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Our only- our little hero we had. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So that's- would you encourage people to volunteer as ushers at the Performing Arts Center? Gordon George: Right, and they take very little of your time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: I mean it's not even once a month. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: 'Cause they have quite a few volunteers, 'cause they will take volunteers any time. Toby Jenkins: Okay. You volunteer still here at the Equality Center. Anything else you volunteer at? Gordon George: Life Senior Services. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what do you do with them? Gordon George: I mainly just help at their major fundraisers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: I help when they do those. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And tell us a little bit, what is Life Senior Services? Gordon George: It supports adult seniors, and they do so much in the community. They provide housing, they provide daycare for seniors. They don't call it daycare, it's something else. Toby Jenkins: Drop-in? Gordon George: Yeah, where people that can go- they have all kinds of classes. They haveToby Jenkins: Fitness center. Gordon George: Dancing, yeah, all the- bunch of stuff that they do. Toby Jenkins: They help you with your taxes. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Help you navigate Medicare and finding the right insurance. Gordon George: Right. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So do you enjoy volunteering with Life Senior Services? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Do they know you're gay? Gordon George: Well, I would think so. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you always feel welcome there? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. 31 �Gordon George: Not a problem. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you- I'll say this as a PSA. What you're doing by volunteering and serving our community, the whole community, that does more to help us make sure that we create an inclusive community for LGBTQ people because we're visible and we're helping out where it's needed, instead of silo-ing ourself and isolating ourself. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That's my PSA. Do you find that to be true? Gordon George: Yes, and we have several with the senior group here that also are ambassadors. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That do the volunteer programs? Gordon George: Mm-hmm, that do this. Toby Jenkins: Oh, cool, very cool. So let's think about, an archeologist uncovers these archives in a 100 years and he's gonna look at your interview and what message do you want to give to those who come after us. Or maybe young people today who just are not sure how all this came to be. They just think it's always been like this. What would be your message to the future and to people? Young people today about what would you message would you give them? Gordon George: They have privileges that older people have worked for to appreciate those privileges and to work on keeping those privileges and to help support the LGBTQ community and get involved, stay involved. And keep working, 'cause it's never- it's gonna be an uphill battle no matter how long it's gonna be. 'Cause you're always gonna have people that don't like our community and it's gonna be an uphill, ongoing battle. Toby Jenkins: Alright. Gordon George: And keep doing it. Keep the battle going. Toby Jenkins: Anything else? Gordon George: No, I don't think so. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality and Toby Jenkins, we've been present for this interview. We conclude our interview with Gordon George, affectionately known as GG around Oklahomans for Equality. Toby Jenkins: Thank you for tuning in for this broadcast. Gordon George: I appreciate it. Thank you. 32 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Gordon George Interview Description An account of the resource In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations. Subject The topic of the resource Gordon George Oral History Project from February 3, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gordon George, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 3, 2026 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Gordon George HIV/AIDs interview OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/cb45fd2c080c696f642bbf3a4ec34ca2.mp4 5200eb31f5519513b3b1c578c0a4b556 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/0a9ad56686aff1c861791cbd6e559964.pdf 9f05611ad7684b1eccd5aa7a33466e4d PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Jeremy Simmons Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill Date: January 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, February 26, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Jeremy Simmons Keywords Jeremy Simmons, LGBTQ+, sexual orientation, HIV awareness, community advocacy, personal identity, religious background, nonprofit management, Tulsa, equality Takeaways  Jeremy grew up in a conservative, religious environment.  He navigated his sexual identity amidst societal expectations.  Experiences of bullying shaped his understanding of acceptance.  He identifies as more attracted to men but has explored bisexuality.  Performance art has been a form of self-expression for him.  Community engagement has been a significant part of his life.  He has worked with various organizations for HIV awareness.  Transitioning from OKQ to HOPE was a pivotal moment in his career.  Nonprofit management presents unique challenges and opportunities.  He believes in the potential for positive change in the community. Summary In this interview, Jeremy Simmons shares his journey of self-discovery and advocacy within the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in a conservative, religious environment, he navigated the complexities of his sexual identity while facing societal expectations and bullying. His experiences shaped his commitment to community engagement and HIV awareness, leading to significant roles in various organizations. Jeremy reflects on the challenges of nonprofit management and expresses hope for the future of the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the importance of continued advocacy and support. 2 �Chapters 00:00 Jeremy Simmons Oral History Interview January 22, 2026 01:24:24 Introduction and Early Life 01:27:21 Religious Background and Identity 01:30:25 Navigating Sexual Orientation in Adolescence 01:33:35 Experiences of Bullying and Acceptance 01:36:31 Understanding Bisexuality and Self-Identification 01:39:24 Relationships and Social Circles 01:42:27 Coming Out and Community Engagement 01:45:21 Work History and Involvement with Equality Center 01:48:09 HIV Testing and Support Services 01:51:19 Challenges in Healthcare Access 01:54:15 Personal Experiences with HIV and Community Support 02:03:57 The Evolution of HIV Treatment and Public Perception 02:08:30 Community Outreach and Testing Initiatives 02:13:33 Navigating Funding Challenges in Nonprofits 02:20:23 The Impact of Government Regulations on Nonprofits 02:25:31 The Journey of Hope: From Formation to Growth 02:32:55 Reflections on Personal Growth and Community Engagement 02:40:16 Advocacy and the Changing Landscape of LGBTQ+ Rights 02:47:42 Looking Forward: Optimism for the Future Jeremy Simmons Oral History Interview January 21, 2026 Dennis Neill: Good afternoon. It is January, the 21st, 2026, and we're in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library at the Equality Center and we're having the opportunity to interview Jeremy Simmons. And Jeremy, would you state your name and give us some basic biographical information, like your birthday, your early growing up experiences, a little bit of your family background that you might want to share and your early education? Jeremy Simmons: Sure, Jeremy Simmons, I grew up in and around Bartlesville, so Washington County, so in the city of Bartlesville and it's, and in very small places like around Ramona and Tulala, like so in the middle of nowhere. At one point we had a 3 �house. It was like a half a mile away from anybody, so remote for some of that. I was born a long time ago and I'm much older now and I moved to Tulsa in 94 and that's where I've lived here over half my life and because it's been so long and like all of my adult life, I think of Tulsa as my home now. Dennis Neill: And where'd you do your elementary and high school work? Jeremy Simmons: That's a great question. I did it in different, at Caney Valley in Bartlesville, where the two schools that I was in and Wesleyan religious school at the beginningDennis Neill: is that the one in Bartlesville? Jeremy Simmons: Yes Dennis Neill: What year did you graduate from high school? Jeremy Simmons: Sometime in the 90s, and they have 56 peopleDennis Neill: Did you go immediately on to post-secondary? Jeremy Simmons: Not right away. I spent a little time at Tulsa Community College trying to sort of know what I wanted to do, and then I went to the University of Tulsa later in the 90s. I have an associate's degree in humanities from TCC and I had worked on a sociology degree that I did not complete. Dennis Neill: Okay, great, great, anything else that you can share with us about your family background, like siblings or other information you want to share about? Jeremy Simmons: So my life before I moved here was quite different and I don't really like to dig super deep into it. Just to be honest with you. I feel comfortable saying I grew up in extremely isolated rural areas, pretty religious background, as you can imagine. I did pre-k, kindergarten and first grade at the Wesleyan school, which is quite traditional conservative. So, coming from that background, although the interesting thing about it was kind of interesting going to the Weslyan School, I was surrounded by people from different countries and different races and nationalities, so then going to smaller schools and being not around that was sometimes more conservative, honestly, being in the public schools in a small town. Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about your early religious experience and how that's evolved over time. Any intersection with how you identify from a sexual orientation? Jeremy Simmons: Oh, that's a great question. So for me, in the way that I grew up, so all of my family was very religious and most of the people in my area were just very religious. So religion just dominated everything. And at one point for many years, next to a Southern Baptist Church, it was this like the second biggest building in town after the school. So it makes quite an impression. I was very Christian in a very traditional conservative way because I thought that that was there wasn't really any thought about it. It's like when you grow up in rural spaces a lot of times it's just like, everybody thinks that abortion is wrong and 4 �everybody thinks that homosexuality is wrong and everybody supports the troops and it's like they're sort of a far-right cultural line that blends with the religion and you just like 80- 90% of the people feel that way, or they pretend to. Yeah, so when I was quite young I was actually fairly conservative, which, looking back, it's kind of like okay, but then it's just kind of hard to integrate that old life with who I was later. But I also started making out with boys when I was a very young. Dennis Neill: Do you mind sharing what age you're talking about? Jeremy Simmons: Definitely by sixth grade, maybe by fifth grade range, roughly so. So even though everybody was far right religious, there was same-sex stuff and drinking. There were things that always happened. They were just very underground. You just had to be very, very careful about them, right? Dennis Neill: In that period, were you also trying to deal and date the opposite sex while you were in junior high, high school? How did you kind of blend those thoughts with your other aspects of your peers? Jeremy Simmons: That's another really great question and it's so hard to put into words. So, without, especially without doing like getting into psychobabble language, but cognitive dissonance is definitely a thing. I viewed myself as heterosexual and so I had girlfriends, but I didn't want to have sex with any of them and I did want to have sex with men and so, but it got to a certain point. as you get older, I think it's harder to even be gay undercover in some of those situations. I stopped doing anything with boys by probably 14, 15, definitely 16.. I remember by the time we were all driving age for sure, , like none of us were doing that anymore. It was considered like something that you just did as a kid and didn't talk about it anymore. So I just thought I genuinely thought for a while that if I just kept giving it a try, I'd meet the right girl. That's where my head was with all that. Dennis Neill: And did you go to like the proms or the other school events like that with… Jeremy Simmons: Very weirdly, yeah, I know, it was like when I talk to people who grew up, they want to talk to people my age or older. I come across a lot of parallels, or even younger people who grew up in rural areas still like who grew up 10, 20 years later than me. They're like: oh yeah, I mean, you've had to have a girlfriend. That was just a part of it. So also to, I was also kind of smaller. I wasn't super athletic. Not getting picked on meant being conservative and being straight and doing certain things. Dennis Neill: So did you have bullying experiences? Jeremy Simmons: Oh sure Dennis Neill: Over what reasons? Or what characteristics? Jeremy Simmons: I mean sometimes I would get called a faggot or or a sissy or whatever, something that, some type of equivalent of that. Some of that was 5 �probably more intentionally directed. And then some of it is just things that people say that are hurtful, like, if someone's slightly effeminate or smaller framed. They're gonna be compared to being girlish, separate from their gender identity or sexuality. I think it's just a jab, right, it's something that could be hurtful. And then some of it felt like more directed. I remember there was a lot of different experiences. Sometimes a lot of kids that were like one to three years older than us and that kind of range would try and isolate us and pick on us, and there was a one time where some older kids may just take our clothes off and I thought something like sexual assault was going to happen and it didn't, fortunately. That was one of the weirder things, but that's one of those things that happens when you get a bunch of other kids that are all supposed to be straight and hyper conservative. Dennis Neill: Were there any of these peers as you're growing up through high school that were more clearly out and comfortable with their different sexual orientations? Jeremy Simmons: No, not so. It depends on where. Probably in Bartlesville, but I didn't go to school there- very much, I think, and definitely not in the Weslyan school. Like you literally couldn't be gay and be at the Weslyan school, like that's a part of their rules. So it's like that wouldn't have been it, there wouldn't have been an option. At that time they only had school up through sixth grade and I quit before then. There are probably kids that that, looking back on it, seemed more effeminate or seem more physically intimate with the same-sex. That might have been something, but when you're young enough, that's all, that's okay. , there's a certain level like there's a little bit of bullying. But unless it gets like, unless you get really affectionate or something , like a little bit of that's okay. It's whenyou get into junior high kind of…Sixth grade and up is when I think people really start having more expectations. That was my experience anyway, and so everything started to get more codified, going to the dances and having regular girlfriends, you are serious enough to change exchange class rings, like there are certain rituals. It's like you needed to participate, and it was much easier for you if you did participate in that. So to not participate in that, even if you were straight and cisgendered and healthy, like, even if you were able, but like even if you didn't have a lot of bullying potential, if you removed yourself from the heterosexual norms, you definitely made yourself a target, so you had to either be- and some kids could do it. I remember the few people that did it- they had to have like a schtick, like they had to be the stoner with the motorcycle or something, like they had to have something, like you could be a black sheep in some, in some ways, but you couldn't just be like, oh, I'm just not gonna date me, buddy, right? Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about the process of when you finally decided what your orientation was, and how do you identify now that kind of that path that you followed in getting comfortable with how you currently identify? Jeremy Simmons: Right after high school, I decided that I was bisexual and I actually had sex with women, but very little and I didn't hate it. So bisexuality is somewhat applicable to me, I feel, but it was definitely for me. 6 �It was more of a transitional phase, and I hate saying that because a lot of people sort of pigeonhole bisexuality in general as that, and I very much don't feel that way. There's definitely bisexuality and pansexuality and all the other things are valid for me. I'm just very strongly attracted to other men. I had one girlfriend that was just like you're just not that into this, you just need to be gay. I spent two semesters briefly in Stillwater. I always forget about that in interviews and I was not very successful at school there because I was just interested in figuring out my sexuality and drinking, and doing whatever, so that actually I always forget that part that played. But even though it was just a couple of semesters, it played a huge role in my development because that's because I don't think I would have been able to be bisexual in Bartlesville or Ramona or wherever Copan, anywhere else around there. I mean like none of those places would have tolerated that. At the time in the 90s, I think a lot of people thought that that was just a bullshit thing, even amongst gay people and straight people. I think a lot of people were like, oh, there's just two genders and everybody's either straight or very gay. Everything seemed very bipolar in the 90s. You were just like: I'm this or that. Dennis Neill: Have you ever been married? Jeremy Simmons: No. Dennis Neill: What about any significant long-term relationships that you want to share. Jeremy Simmons: I dated a guy named Robert who's still saved in my phone as bastard ex-boyfriend for a couple of years in the 90s. He's actually a very dear friend. Once we figured out that we were supposed to be friends, everything was great. Um, that's my longest relationship. So when you asked earlier how I identify myself, I try not to do a lot of labels. I just I find it kind of constraining and tedious and then even when you get, even when you pick a label, then five years from now, like the culture and the language is going to change. It just seems like, oh, I'm just human. But the question is very valid, because I am much more into men than women. I feel comfortable as a male, and have always been perceived as more male than female. I feel like it's important to state this is where I come from, this is what I am. But I've had fun dressing up as women. I won by comp, by by crowd vote, at an 80s prom with the full canes. I won prom queen dressed up as Annie Lennox one year. So it's like I'm not really a drag queen all the time, but I feel very comfortable being, I felt comfortable being intimate with women. I feel comfortable being in women's clothes. But I feel more comfortable as a man and more comfortable being with other men. Dennis Neill: Do you consider your drag experience like performance art when you've been on stage, or have you actually been on stage? Jeremy Simmons: Nnot in a traditional way where I would get tips, no, It's been fun, something I've done a handful of times successfully and it was very interesting. 7 �To explain more about me to- I am a little bit of an experience junkie, so I like to fully understand things by immersing myself in them, without doing something like going really hardcore, then I don't feel like I've understood something. But a lot of times I'll do something like dress up in drag. I also was on stage for an S&M ball that my friends did and it's very fun, it's very engaging, but then I'm like: got it done, so, and I don't really know how to put that into words when it comes to…when you talk about sexual identity, because some people like, well, you're a sex addict and I was like absolutely not, like I haven't had sex since before COVID. Sexual sex is very low priority for me, right, but asexuality also doesn't feel right. It's like I say one thing and somebody's always like: oh, so you're asexual and I'm like: no, like I'm physically capable of having sex and I'm interested in maybe doing it again. , probably with a guy now in your network of friends. I have a huge network of friends. So that's one of the nice things about not dating or not having kids: it gives you a lot of time to follow personal interests and develop friend networks. So, yes, I have tons of friends here and I never have enough time to keep up with all of them, which is lovely. I have some that are much closer, but I don't know, when I was younger it was much more important for me to identify as gay and I think because- but I think a part of that was because I was told that that was wrong and because it was so much harder to do that in the 90s- be openly gay, especially if you were young and didn't have a ton of money. I think for people who have a lot of money or people who live in certain cities, it's always been easier for anything . A lot of that identity stuff was very important to me then, and dating was very important to me. Then the 2000s hit, I just got less interested in it and so every now and then I'll date and it just seems to run its course faster and it's done. Dennis Neill: Did you immediately get acclimated to the gay and lesbian community, like through the bars or other social activities? Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, Dennis Neill: And what was kind of some of your first experiences, going out and socializing like locations? Jeremy Simmons: Yes,in the 80s and 90s at a certain point it was okay to go out to after-hours clubs and and whatever your age was, and then I think maybe 92 to 94 range, before I moved here, they changed the city, passed law saying that they couldn't do that anymore. When I was a baby, like I remember- I remember going to Icon that did after-hour stuff and I didn't have my driver's license yet, so I was probably 15 at the oldest. And while that wasn't a gay club, it was a very gay-friendly place. Yeah, I remember the name, but where is the location? It used to be on Peoria, Brookside proper, close to where, I think it was in or near where Sharkey's is right now. Dennis Neill: Okay, so it was on that side [east] of the street? 8 �Jeremy Simmons: Yep, on the east side, definitely. Because at one time there was also what, Concessions? Dennis Neill: Concessions was across the street, very close there. Jeremy Simmons: Icon was great. And it was definitely, for somebody who was trying to figure themselves out, being in an environment like rural Washington County, and then coming there where there were people dressed in drag, and there was goth people, and there was ravers, and there was weird old bikers, and people were doing drugs all over the place. And so that was a very different world. It was very interesting. It was very fun for me. I was very young, so I was a little too timid to get too involved with anything, but it was definitely fun to be a fly on the wall at that time. While I didn't grow up here, I do remember things from the 80s and earlier 90s from here, because I've always lived near Tulsa. I remember coming out to some of those spaces that were definitely gayadjacent. And like many other men my age, around that time, I went to the Toolbox before I was 21, and that's the bar, which is now the Eagle on 3rd. I don't remember when, but it would have been, I don't know, before I moved here in 94. Dennis Neill: Did you live on your own initially? Jeremy Simmons: I had roommates for quite a while. Dennis Neill: Gay, straight, mix, were they your roommates? Jeremy Simmons: I mainly lived with a straight couple at first, but a lot of the crew that I was in were kind of ambiguous. I fell in with a crew of people that were more in the rave scene. I think that they were, and they were doing, there were tons of drugs all the time. I remember that much. I think there was a little bit of like vague bisexuality, but most of them were straight. Dennis Neill: How about once you left the high school environment and went on for post-secondary and then up to today, have you personally experienced any discrimination and prejudice with regard to your sexual orientation or how people perceive your sexual orientation or close friends that have experienced that? Jeremy Simmons: Oh, sure. I've actually experienced fairly little. Well, I feel like it's fairly little. Sometimes when I describe my life story to people who grew up in other progressive places, they're like, Oklahoma sounds like a shithole. But I also, once I was here, I was just like, I'm gay if you don't like it, fuck off. I made a lot of decisions based off of being safe as a gay person. I do remember one of my first apartments that I lived in by myself on Riverside, the guy made me put down an extra deposit because he said that if I got sick from AIDS, it was something like that I was more of a risk. I was like, but I don't even have HIV. But he was like, no, you're welcome here. It's just anybody with health problems or anybody that's risky has to put down an extra $250 deposit, which was a lot of money at the time. And I thought that was weird. I still think it's weird looking back on it. I was originally an employee at the Equality Center and then Hope split off, but then we still worked with the Equality Center forever. I was here one time when a guy 9 �came in and broke a lamp in the hallway and said he was going to something, shoot everybody. I don't know. That would have been…It was when we were on Brookside, and so it would have been after 95, but not a lot after 95. Dennis Neill: Yeah, we were up in there from about 96 to about 99. Jeremy Simmons: I was going to say maybe 97, roughly. So again, when people ask me to do the dates, it's kind of hard because I have to pick anchor events. I don't remember years well. So I know that it was after we'd phased out the 42nd Street Clinic and integrated into there, and that's when we were becoming more public, as OkEq was becoming more public about being an LGBT center. I think that even at the beginning, even when we were doing stuff, there was an effort to kind of have a little bit of a vague gray umbrella around a lot of the language that we used. And then when that center started on Brookside, that just wasn't working anymore. It's like, this is where gay people are. Dennis Neill: So was that your first experience with TOHR, or when we had the location there at the 41st apartment, were you ever involved in that small space that we had with the hotline and a little community? Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, so like I said, I think in 95 I came there for services, and then in 96 I came back for services early and started volunteering there. I had a traditional day-hour job, I think, at the time, and they had night clinics Mondays and Thursdays, which I think they still do to this day. So I was volunteering on Monday or Thursday. One of the night clinics, once a week I would come in and volunteer a few hours. Yeah, and to refresh my memory, so we had the space there at like 39th and Harvard on the east side, where the HIV testing center was like at 42nd and Harvard on the west side. Dennis Neill: So were you volunteering there? Jeremy Simmons: The 42nd, yeah, the clinic. So it's like, yeah, you go just past 41st and Harvard, take the right end on the west side there, go into that little clinic next to Tulsa Cares. We answered the gay, I think they called it the gay hotline at that time, something to that effect. That went into the clinic because we were staffed. And so I did get a very limited amount of training, and sometimes I would take calls for that. So it was usually clinic calls, but the other line came in too. And honestly, I didn't even know. It wasn't until then that I realized that the clinic was not a part, I knew that it was separate from Tulsa Cares. It wasn't just in a separate building, but it wasn't until then, later, I think it wasn't until 96 that I even really knew that there was an LGBT group that was in the space. Dennis Neill: Walk me through your early work history from the time you left college through the early years. Jeremy Simmons: Okay. Well, I did a lot of this and that. There wasn't a lot that was super interesting. When I was a teenager, I worked for my grandpa. He had a garage in Ramona, and so I did that for a while. But just surface stuff like pumping gas and 10 �bringing people parts, nothing too complicated. And then I got a job when I was, I think, 16 or 17, which sounds crazy now, but back then everybody just did that at Walmart in Bartlesville, and that was before Walmart became this massive sprawling show that it is today. So I did just miscellaneous stuff. I moved here, and I was doing Thrifty Car Rental which had their corporate headquarters here, and I think that they've been merged into Dollar, Avis, or some other group now, but they were a standalone car reservation place that was based in Tulsa for a long time, and I worked the reservation center for maybe a couple of years. And I was doing that while I was volunteering with OkEq. Dennis Neill: Is that when they relocated what is now Legacy Towers? Jeremy Simmons: Right, around 31st and Yale. And that was kind of interesting because I got to talk to people from all over the world. But it ran its course too. It was never like a permanent thing. And so then, in 96, I was volunteering with the Equality Center, not thinking about it, and they offered me a job, which kind of surprised me. I don't really know why. I think so and again, I just, , I grew up in a pretty small town and I come from pretty conservative background, and so I think people were like: you have to work and own your own business and and make yourself successful that way, or you have to go and work for a big company and make a lot of money. There's the concept of, I don't know, being a social service provider, , or an educator, or something like that it just wasn't really on my radar, which is weird because I was volunteering. So on the one hand, it was right because I was taking my time to help for free, so I had that in my nature. But then also I was like, oh, this isn't something people can do for a living, right, but it offered about the same pay as I was making Thrifty and I was like, yeah, fuck it. So it was kind of a lark, honestly, to start working at OkEq. Dennis Neill: Who actually hired you? Jeremy Simmons: Claudette Peterson. Dennis Neill: She was head of the testing program? Jeremy Simmons: Yes, right. Dennis Neill: Who was it before then? Jeremy Simmons: His first name was Jason, so Jason was doing the position that I filled. I don't know who was in charge before Claudette. Dennis Neill: I think it might have been Roger Morris. Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, that name is not familiar to me. Dennis Neill: Walk us through a little bit about your involvement there and then the transition process with regard to the testing clinic, as you recall, and the staffing changes that you recall. Jeremy Simmons: Sure, so it was also kind of interesting because I thought, because it's a medical job, and I thought, well, you have to be certified medically, but 11 �the state was doing finger stick testing. They were just doing a little finger stick, taking a little bit of blood and putting on a blotter card. Didn't have to be a phlebotomist, didn't have to be a nurse, didn't have to be anything. They trained you how to do that and it was surprisingly easy, and so I think that a lot of people were terrified coming in and so just making it feel normal and being nice to people was the biggest part of the job. That was the most important thing by far, and we had, I think, four employees at the time and that would shift quite a bit based off of state funding. When the state contracts would change, like the positions would come and go. It felt a little chaotic and it did for a long time, honestly, and it's a challenge for a lot of nonprofits, even as they get bigger. If the government funding is such a big chunk and then their priorities shift, then it's like, well, you have to be more of a counselor now, or you have to be more medical now, or you have to do group sessions now, and so you just kind of have to roll with whatever the grant says or get replaced. Fortunately they were pretty good…the state and OkEq and then later HOPE separately, were all pretty good about doing the trainings that were necessary because a lot of them weren't that complicated. They always kept it to where less medical or non-medical staff, non-counseling staff could do the jobs, because it just wouldn't have been an affordable otherwise, because we always needed a lot of free volunteers and low-paid staff or it just wouldn't have worked. Dennis Neill: When you did the finger stick at that time, was that still the requirement to send it off and wait two weeks. Jeremy Simmons: Right. Dennis Neill: What was your experience with that? Knowing folks were coming in getting tested. Did all of them, or a majority of them, come back and the experience you had when you were having to deliver a positive result? I mean, was there hope at that period of time? Jeremy Simmons: Not really. It was really really rough. It was hard getting people to come in, but if they came in they usually came back for their results. So if they were committed. We had something like 75- 80 percent return rate, which I always thought, oh, that's just so, so many people aren't getting their results. But at a lot of testing sites it was like 60 percent or less. So we actually had a good follow-up rate. I think a part of that was just being so openly gay-friendly and non-judgmental about drug use and sex workers and all the other things that people might get worked up about. We did have a lot of people come back in. It was quite, I remember, being from experiencing from the other side- like waiting for 10 to 14 days to get a result back was felt very stressful. While protease inhibitors came out in the 90s, their use and full understanding wasn't, wasn't in place yet. It wasn't until the early 2000s where that started to kind of shift. It took a little bit longer to get it fully ingrained- where we can have these long-term undetectable status kind of thing, a different ballgame. So then there really wasn't a lot that you could do. Getting tested really was more about hoping that you were negative,and then if you found out that you had HIV, then it was a little bit more about when am I going to need hospice care? How am I gonna live a fulfilling life for 20 years? It was more about okay, at a certain point this is going to catch up with me. 12 �Dennis Neill: The folks that did test positive, did you all have a referral list of doctors and counselors that you could provide to help them on their path? Jeremy Simmons: Sort of. There were always people providing services here, but not a lot, and it if you didn't have the right health insurance, it could be very difficult to get into the right people. I remember early on there was a guy named Jeffrey BealI'm sure you remember Dr. Beal- who was like I'm gonna make a clinic that focuses on HIV care and does a good job of it and it's gay, affirming and doesn't matter if people do some drugs or have hep C to or any that like. But a lot of places wouldn't take anybody with HIV. Or if they would, they wouldn't take any other problems, like if you had hep C at the same time or if you couldn't pass a drug test or if you didn't have good insurance or any number of things, because it was already kind of a stretch for them to deal with HIV. So we had some resources. They were few and far between and some of the ones that did it, like Dr. Beal, could quickly get booked up. So, yes, technically, there were resources, but for many people if you lived outside of Tulsa, if you didn't have health insurance, if you didn't have disposable income, if you had a comorbidity, you weren't really going to get care or very good care. Dennis Neill: In addition to Dr. Beal, did you work closely with Ted, his partner, who was providing counseling services. Jeremy Simmons: Fortunately, most of our test results were negative. When we would get a positive test result, people handled that wildly differently. That case where you just felt like, wow, this is gonna be a really tough case, both for you emotionally as well. Sure. So there are some people who like, under underneath it all, have a have a lot of cynicism or cynicism or optimism about life, and so this was definitely a job that taught me a lot about that. Because some people who have really terrible circumstances already and then we're getting HIV positive result, we're like, well, this is a hassle, we're gonna navigate it as best we can. And then some people- it was just all they could think about was how they were going to die. it was very clear, they were like, oh, and also some people wouldn't go into care because then they couldn't let anybody know is how they felt. Even if they had health insurance and even if they lived in Tulsa and had disposable income and didn't have a comorbidity, they might have been so closeted about their sexuality and in some cases, even if they were openly gay and had everything going for them, they felt like they could not let anyone know they had HIV or they would be shunned at the bar or they might be kicked out of an apartment or lose access to a kid or lose a job, which are things that definitely did happen to people. Not extremely often, but regularly, so the fear of them happening was much bigger than the actuality, but they were things that regularly occurred and so it made it made it kind of difficult. Trying to get people into counseling was always great. Some people would spiral and just party and not go to the doctor and their health conditions and overall life would get much, much worse. So not suicide by direct action, but definitely like, well, if I have five more years, I'm just going to enjoy it. 13 �Dennis Neill: How would you compare the percent, you said, fortunately, it was quite low on the positive side in the 90s. How does that compare with today, would you say, the more recent pattern? Jeremy Simmons: It's definitely shifted way down. There was a lot of things happening. It's just, it's a very different, from a public health perspective, communicable disease perspective, it's a very different game now. So back then, there weren't great treatments, like you could get on AZT and maybe combine that with something else, maybe get off and on AZT. There were different things that you could do. And it was sort of the chemotherapy approach. We're just like, hey, we're going to bombard your system with a bunch of toxicity that's going to kill the HIV more than it kills your healthy tissue, but it's definitely going to kill your healthy tissue. So you're going to get sick at a certain point if you stay on AZT or any of these other antivirals at high doses enough to actually help you. It was kind of a gamble. People had to just do their best with it. Now, not only are people living longer, but their health outcomes are much better and they're much less likely to transmit. So we had a lot of people who would get very sick from HIV or very sick from the medications or some of both and try and balance that back and forth. But meanwhile, they were often having a high viral load or a moderate viral load. And so their long-term health outcomes were never going to be great and they were highly infectious to other people. While not everybody fully understood that at the time, enough people understood it. You were shunned if you had HIV was often the case, but not by everyone. It didn't bother me, because I'm in the office around it all the time. But I knew that I was not the norm. There was so much fear among so many gay men that they might get it too. And even if you weren't worried about directly having sexual or blood contact with somebody, I just think a lot of, a lot of gay men looked at other gay men as, oh, well, they're going to get sick soon, sooner rather than later, , and they are potentially infectious. So we have to be more careful around them. There was, even amongst ourselves, I think there was a lot of people, there was a lot of, I think, serosorting is a term I've heard, where it was like there were groups of HIV positive men within gay men that were still, that would still hang out and have community. Which is why places like we talked about earlier, like Our House, were much more relevant at that time. But it's such a different thing now. We would often get 5% or higher HIV rates. Still over 90% of our test results were coming back negative pretty regularly. That would fluctuate a little bit month to month or year to year. But oh, when you looked at year long stretches and multi-year long stretches, it was pretty consistently under 10%, sometimes less than 5%. Now, as hope evolved and even got bigger and started testing more people, like sometimes the positivity rate would be less than 3%, less than 2%. You see a lot less of it. And the biggest part of that is the viral load being much more manageable means that people aren't going to accidentally give it to other people. 14 �Dennis Neill: I know there was an effort at one point in time to really reach out to the African American community with regard to testing. There was actually an organization that partnered with testing to reach out to the African American community. Were you part of that effort? Do you remember the special grants I think that organization received? Jeremy Simmons: I partnered with them. So there was, Derek Davis was very involved, Donald Rose. And this is that thing about human memory. Tall guy, what was his name? Dennis Neill: FUSO [Friends in Unity Social Organization] was the name. Jeremy Simmons: The interesting thing is we just always called it FUSO. They never spelled it out, so like that was the incorporated name. And they at one point they- Renfro was also a guy who was very active with them and I worked with [R.F.] Renfro and then he died, which was one of the…sorry, I'm usually very nonemotional these things, but every now and then he was a very sweet person and not that…that sounds like a shitty thing to say, like no one deserves to die from something so painful. He was involved with this group. He was so sweet and he was so bright and was so healthy and then, like a year, he was gone. Sorry, that's one of the ones that's always still really hard for me to talk about. Dennis Neill: He was not only part of that organization but a close friend as well? Jeremy Simmons: He was a friend, yes, and I knew him a lot better than many of the others and worked with him. It was very surreal, I think, when it came to the clients and I knew people in real life who had HIV too. I just had enough of a wall built up where I could still be engaged with then and care about them. I think that the grant, the process kind of fell away. He was a guiding force behind it, Derek [Davis] was very engaged, I think, Donald, and was as well…and I'm- I'm sorry I'm blanking on that, still blanking on the guy. I can see his face and he's a very tall and he would come up here once in a while. The way I understand it, it's just a lot of those grants, but a lot of those things fluctuate, and so sometimes too- I'm trying to say this politically correct- sometimes the funding sources change so radically that it it it becomes apparent that either someone doesn't know what the fuck they're doing or they're intentionally sabotaging the programs , and it can be hard to tell, because if we're talking about stuff that can start at the federal level and can have lots of intermediaries. For example, when we we formed HOPE as a separate breakaway, in part because state legislators were going after LGBT organizations and OkEq wasn't 100% doing something right on the financials and it was something that a lot of nonprofits would do- shell games with money, but it was also something that if someone wanted to pull the funds, they could do it right. While it was something that a lot of people did and it wasn't a problem, when you live in a place like Oklahoma, when someone goes on the warpath against you, it's just like okay. But even when we did everything we were supposed to do and became a health organization that focused on gay services instead of a gay organization, so we wouldn't get as much grief- the CDC cut funding to the whole state for all HIV programs because the state was just fucking things up so much. 15 �There's a lot of at state and federal levels and I think that I don't want to speak too much for a few. Because I knew them well and I love Renfro and I still keep up a little bit with Derek and Donald…I don't know all of the details there- they were there and it was great to see them being there. And when we phased out of the 42nd office, we moved over and had two or three offices were kind of designated to the HOPE wing or that. That's not what they called it then. They called it just something else simple like the HIV Testing Clinic or the HIV Services or something more generic like that. And then FUSO had a small office in the Equality Center on Brookside. Briefly. Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about that transition from 1998 when it became its own nonprofit. How did that whole process, and then when you felt like the ship was getting righted, as far as the relationship with the funders like the state and so on. And the various locations that you've experienced in HOPE testing. Jeremy Simmons: So, as I mentioned, we had some state funders come to us and said, hey, the state is going after anything that's too drug-friendly, anything that's too gay-friendly, and they're not going to give you money next year, probably. If you stay here, they also might audit you and they might end - was happening to an Oklahoma City agency that got shut down right after that. So, I felt like that was pretty sage advice. Dennis Neill: Do you remember the name of the Oklahoma City organization? They started something called the AIDS Support Program. Jeremy Simmons: It was something that hadn't been around forever and then went away. I can't remember it. And they had, because they were a part of an sort of an LGBT organization, someone there, an employee, had promoted some kind of material from NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association. And that was just like the grossest, dumbest thing, They were very, like at their core, that group, it's kind of like when you talk to certain people, there's like the public pitch, but at their core, they were very much about grooming and having sex with very young, under 18 people. That was a core part of that NAMBLA group. So it's like, you don't touch them. You don't have to listen to their pitch too much and you kind of dig into what's like what's going on. That's what did them in. I don't even know that they were necessarily promoting something that would have been child molesting oriented. They just did something with that group. At the time, I remember having this conversation with Nancy McDonald and I was kind of against her, but then as I looked back on it, because I wanted to do a leather S&M focused HIV group and just call it what it was. And she was like, no, that's not smart. And I was like, well, okay. That would not have been good. There's just certain things you can't do here or you're gonna get on somebody's radar. That's how it was in the nineties. I think this was actually before we split away from OkEq. I don't remember exactly. I just remember she was one of the ones and I didn't know her very well and I always liked her and respected her, but we, she was very, very cautious compared to what I wanted to do. In retrospect though, I get it. It's one of those things where I was like, I'm happy to say that I would have made the wrong decision on that call. 16 �There’s just certain things you just couldn't do without raising too many red flags and then the next thing , and they're going to find a way. First they'll audit you and then if you're not doing everything right, which many nonprofits weren't in the eighties and nineties, when you really look into it… like we were on a reimbursement contract, not a grant saying we could spend whatever. So we had to use the money and then get reimbursed. If you didn't do it in just the right way, if you did it and people would be like, oh well, but we have to pay the lights and so we're gonna do this with that, then we'll catch up and pay that. At the end of the year, would it all work out? Sure. But you can't, when you're dealing with the Feds in general or when you're dealing with hostile state-level people, you can't shell game with the money at all. Or you can maybe for a year or five years or ten years, like you can for a while. But at some point they're gonna catch you and be like, no, no, you didn't do this exactly right according to this contract. And so now we're gonna pull all your funds and mark you as someone who can't be funded again. Dennis Neill: So in the current day is the HOPE deal where it's a reimbursement type of process as opposed to…. Jeremy Simmons: as opposed to a straight grant? Yep. So that HIV money, ever since I've been involved since 96, whether it was for anybody, like OkEq. HOPE, Tulsa Cares, anybody, whether it's CDC-based, HRSA-based, this is what you do. They'll sometimes make exceptions if you can deal with them directly federally. So there are some exceptions. But most people get reimbursed through the state as an intermediary. And the state's like, you have to do all these things. You have to show us that you've paid for it, and then we'll reimburse you. If you get really lucky, even if you're doing everything right, you're jumping through all the hoops, and you're spending all the money exactly right, and going to all that work, something like COVID will come along. They just won't pay you for five months. Doing that work can be really tough on the people at the top trying to figure out the money. It is challenging for everybody. It always cracks me up when people want to start nonprofits. And they're like, well, we'll get government money. And I'm like, no. You have to have so much liability insurance before certain government agencies will even want to touch you. And that's cost prohibitive to a lot of places. It's like there's just all these big things you have to have in place. And most of them now require annual audits. And if not annual, you will, at least every second or third year, have a serious, deep audit. You have to have all your time ducks in a row, because even trying to do the right thing. We got better as we split away, we were like, OK, we're going to be more legit about money. We still made mistakes. We got better over time. There's always gray areas. , they can come in and be like, well, you're not separating the gloves that you bought from the state health department money from the gloves you're buying for this. And so now you're going to have to pay us back for these gloves, because we can't prove by a visual check that you're the blah, blah, blah. 17 �But we're using all the free gloves you give us, and then we're spending our own money buying other gloves on top of that. Does that not show you that we're using all of the gloves? Anyway, any state or federal agency, if they want to cause problems for you, they can come in and say, oh, well, you didn't do this exactly right. And sometimes it's not even in the contract, which is the most frustrating. , when it's like, OK, we did everything according to the contract. I'm like, well, but this is still an expectation. Dennis Neill: Did you say it was 96 when you first started with the testing? Do you recall what month you started with testing? Jeremy Simmons: I became an employee in the summer. I believe it was July 1st. Because at that point, the state's contract, their annual calendar started something in the summer, June 1st, July 1st, August 1st, something like that. Dennis Neill: And was it HOPE at that point in time? Jeremy Simmons: It was. Dennis Neill: Can you tell us what it was and how that transitioned? Jeremy Simmons: So when we were doing it at first, while Claudette was still here, when we would answer the phone, I would just say it was something very generic but plain, like HIV Testing Clinic, or something really just direct. I don't remember what it was that we said. I don't think anybody was too uptight about it at the time. But we weren't like, thanks for calling the Equality Center, or thanks for calling OkEq, or thanks for calling whatever. It wasn't about branding or anything. It was just like, you've called. Because in part, that building we were in was separate, and it was literally only for… When the people came in for the gay hotline, it rang on a different line. So we needed to answer that as like something, Oklahoma gay hotline, or something. We might have used OkEq as part of that, or TOHR. For a long time. It wasn't until it was not until probably mid-97 to late 97 that I think, we started getting warnings that the state was gonna be auditing people that weren't doing things right. The state was coming for gay dollars. At a certain point before we left, we were like, okay, we need to differentiate ourselves. To be perfectly honest, many of us that were doing the actual work were like, oh yeah, we're gonna have to become a separate financial institution, because this thing where- and it didn't happen all the time, but occasionally we wouldn't get paid or we would have to sit on mileage reimbursements and we weren't making a lot of money. And that's the one sure way to piss your employees off and be like, hey, we actually have to do this stuff with the money instead. So your paychecks gonna be next week, or we're gonna give you a paycheck but you need to sit on it for eight more days, or whatever. And we started calling ourselves HOPE right before we left, but I don't remember when. Dennis Neill: Do you know how that name came about or who created… 18 �Jeremy Simmons: That's a good question, because and- and I looked back- when we did a history project thing and I was like I think I incorporated us both times and Ithere's three people that incorporated HOPE. It was originally HIV outreach, prevention education incorporated and then about a year and a half later we changed it to health outreach, prevention, education. And I remember much more vividly the second conversation because there was this huge debate about whether we were going to be an HIV specific organization or not and branch out into Hep C services and etc. At the beginning I don't recall, but I and Christy Frisbee and Johnny Eilert's were the three people that incorporated the organization as HIV Outreach. So I was involved. I was like oh, yeah, that's my signature, so it is interesting what you kind of remember and kind of don't. But I don't remember a lot of conversation about it. I think for me at the beginning part I was like this was also the 90s, was a different time and I was much younger and I think at the time I was like branding, shmanding, Now I have much, I have much more appreciation for it, but at the time I was like oh, yeah, sure, yeah, we'll call it the this. It was like we have to keep the services going and if we don't, I think if we don't break away, they're gonna come after OkEq, sorry, TOHR. It's hard for me to use that name for some reason, even though I used it, and so the funny thing is technically I was an employee of TOHR . I was paid from Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, so I saw that name all the time. It's just merged, now OkEq. There was definitely a desperation. There was a lot of board discussion and some of it got quite heated because a lot of people felt like no, no, no, this is just blustering, which I don't think was true, but also I get it. It's like sure somebody, some random people- the state- say this and they're like: have them come to the meeting. No, that's not how it works. They're telling us this as a favor because they like us and they want the program to keep going, and they're seeing what's happening in Oklahoma City and it's duh, it's like Tulsa's gonna be next. That's what a lot of times the state people do. They start in Oklahoma City and then, if they have enough steam and need more attention or whatever, then they're just like: oh yeah, let's go after those guys in Tulsa and Lawton and Bartlesville, wherever else. Once we finally agreed to split apart, we stayed at the old building for a while and then we ended up getting another building space that was next door to Tulsa Cares again, and that was on Admiral, just a little bit east of Harvard. Dennis Neill: You were in the same structure? Jeremy Simmons: Right. For many years they had their main building and then there was a small building next door that was separated and we were there. They originally started off the model that they had when at the 42nd and Harvard complex, where they were like we're gonna be a home for a dozen organizations or more, so like the Names Project had like a, or Shanti had like a little teeny, tiny office, baby office there for a little bit. And then who else? There were other groups that had spaces there and we were one of them. We were definitely the second largest because of our staffing size and our funding capacities. RAIN [Regional AIDS 19 �Interfaith Network] was there for a little bit before they had their own thing. So it was supposed to be sort of like a coalition space. But pretty quickly, it became obvious that Tulsa Cares was getting the bulk of the money and that HOPE was getting another big chunk of money and everybody else was like 10% or less of what we were. The staffing and the client needs were overwhelmingly Tulsa Cares and secondarily HOPE. Over time, everything else, a lot of the other smaller organizations kind of merged into Tulsa Cares or finally moved out and got their own spaces. We were there for a while. Dennis Neill: Can you remember the street address? Jeremy Simmons: I think it's 3540 East Admiral Street. It's the Admiral that's north. I can see it always and there's a big church that was on the other side of the street and the building's still there and it looks almost identical to how it looked. I'm not sure if it's even being used right now. Blue and white. Tulsa Cares also started doing group meals at that time. IT started kind of changing what they were a little bit, I think. It was still good for us to have a separate space because people were just so terrified still of getting tested and I think they wanted like the least possible human interaction, the most private parking lot just as possible. We were there for three years to five years. I know that's a very broad term. I don't know exactly how long we were there. Then Tulsa Cares just kept growing and growing and growing and we were slowly growing and we were definitely, so we became the last two. All the other places weren't there anymore. And at a certain point Tulsa Cares was like, hey, we need to have a pantry and we need to expand these food services and we just cannot do this without a lot of extra physical space so you guys are going to need to go. And that was kind of debated and I think my director at the time thought that it wasn't going to happen and it ended up happening though. Christy Fresbee and I were the only two people that were incorporators on both times that we did the name change. We needed space, we had a lot of money for staffing and medical services but we were having a really hard time getting money for a facility and that's just a much, rent or owning is just its own thing. And Community of Hope on 25th and Yale was kind enough to let us stay there for like a year and a half to two years as a temporary transitional space. Then we moved, 3540 might be the 31st Street location. Then we moved to 31st Street which I think was a 3540 location. So that was on 31st a little bit east of Harvard. And we were there for about a decade. That was our longest location. Then we moved to a shopping center for a year and a half around 51st and Harvard and then Hope bought its final location that it owns now that's closer to 51st and Yale. Dennis Neill: When did you decide to leave HOPE and what are you up to now? Jeremy Simmons: I love being at Starlight, I think, but there was a thing going around for volunteer requests from OkEq for Pride and I thought about doing it but I kind of enjoy taking a break from HOPE and being distanced from that and being in some of those same spaces people just walk up and expect me to do HOPE stuff and so I was like I mean I think I just need to be a little further away. 20 �Dennis Neill: I was thinking maybe the late 80s early 90s Starlight was a gay bar but I could be wrong about that. Jeremy Simmons: Forever before it was Starlight it was the Chatterbox which was definitely not a gay bar but yes back in the 80s and 90s remember how we talked earlier about there was this golden time for teenagers where you could be wherever there was an after-hours thing. One of the names was The Factory. It was called many different things and so I went there as a little teenager but you had to wait until 1:45 A.M. or 2:15 or whatever because they made money as a bar and then reopened back up and sold non-alcoholic beverages. So yes, that was definitely... In different incarnations, a more overtly gay space or a kind of gay friendly space. But many of the after-hours places were…It was kind of Wild West compared to what it's like now. There's so many liquor laws now and there's so many ABLE Commission and police…there's just so many guidelines and so many people watching what you do now. Back then it was just like, yeah, someone's coming out of the bathroom with coke on their face, who cares? There's this wild thinking of that. As a teenager, like having access to that world, it felt like when people say it wasn't Studio 54, but when I see stuff like that for Manhattan, I was just like I get that general vibe. I don't know how it happens, but there's like you pay off the cops or you stay off their radar long enough or something , and it's just like people were just like whatever, and so there was more of that at those places. It was more of that live and let live, yeah, kind of a thing. Even the straight people were like, whatever, everybody's doing their own thing Dennis Neill: Switching a little bit to more kind of the broader community you're in, your involvement, advocacy, social activities and particularly your board service with OkEq. Jeremy Simmons: There was a little bit of confusion and hostility when HOPE split away from OkEq. I think it was pretty minimal and it was understandable. It's like okay. There was a little brief period of detente, but I think within several months, definitely within a year, there was conversations about us doing testing on Saturdays at the Equality Center. So we pretty quickly moved past whatever that was, and and started doing regular services here, in part to sort of help- and I've always loved it here- but in part also to sort of seem at that bridge between HOPEand OkEq. I became a board member and I became a committee member. I don't know exactly what they called it, it was something like the rebranding committee, so it was for conversations around the name change and logo, and so I was just… I was on a committee of people, some some board members, but a lot of other just community members, and so I did that and really loved it. It was a lot of fun- and then got on the general board and then the executive committee of the board. Again, I'm terrible with years, but I was on the executive committee as we moved into this building. Dennis Neill: So we moved in 2007. Jeremy Simmons: Okay, I knew it was after the millennia, but I couldn't, but it's just like. That's definitely one of those. I have a hard time anchoring it to another event. 21 �When I was on the committee, we were still in that shopping center on the 41st Street. Dennis Neill: You probably had what- Mark Bonney and Laura BelmonteJeremy Simmons: Yep, yep, I was much more involved with Laura because she was on. …She was very involved. Mark, I believe, was the president, but she was on the committee that brought me in, so I was much more involved with her, and then she became president at a certain point, yeah, and so I always remember being much more involved with her and, while she's on a separate board somewhat, I was more involved with Sue Welch occasionally for other things. I still, even though I'm with on the board, I'm still not a hundred percent sure what the different duties are between the two, like the, the two boards, just to be honest with…the Board of Trustees. I get it in general, but especially as we moved into the building, there was a lot of oh, we want to do this, we want to do that, and there was just like there was….It was very interesting trying to sort of figure all that out still is, because it's like everybody has so many good intentions and so many opinions and so many preferences, right, and so it's hard coordinating that. I- and it's something that I learned a lot from here- and I was like, okay, and I actually heard someone else say this from another LGBT group in another city- and they're like, well, but it's different, not that other marginalized communities or individual communities don't have problems also, but like a lot of immigrant families, a lot of black Americans, a lot of indigenous Americans….A lot of groups are raised within their own communities. So there are, generally speaking, a lot more acceptable norms and like expectations of what is gonna happen, whereas we come from every larger and smaller community. So I think it makes it even harder to get a lot of consensus. We have men and women and transgender people, we have all races, all regions, all socio-economic background, , and so there's all religions. There's not like an overarching norm, aside from maybe being an American, which is a million different things. I think it's just, I think it's common at LGBT centers, to make it harder to get true consensus because there's just so many different drives. Dennis Neill: HOPE in a way, it's certainly been on the forefront of advocacy with its education and outreach, so you've been part of that for decades. Are there other aspects of our community where you felt like you've taken on an advocacy role or in the future, you want to get more involved as you transition and any thoughts about our community at large as its transitioned over the years, the good and the bad. Jeremy Simmons: Oh, that's a really big one. I've worked with several different groups. I worked with the American Red Cross doing HIV education and education around blood-borne pathogens, and it was interesting working within a large bureaucratic, large system and trying to sort of make it be not scared of HIV, to be more open to LGBT. That's not my strength is. I enjoy doing it, but I think I need more immediate results. So I've always dealt with probably smaller groups. I volunteered for a while off and on with the Nightingale Theater and that was fun before the theater was here. There's a lot of small venues here in Tulsa, but before there was a theater here, Nightingale is one of those few spaces where you could do some really sexually 22 �explicit material, thematically or overtly, like, and so they did like a gay spin on the Dukes of Hazzard, stuff like that- that just there wasn't a place for it. Now we have an option here as well, which is great. So that was fun. I was one of the founding board members with the Equality Network, which picked up some steam but then eventually merged with Cimarron Alliance to become Freedom Oklahoma. I think it might have been called something else at first, but now it's Freedom Oklahoma, I believe. I've not kept up with them super well. They invited us to come and I spoke to some state senators about HIV laws and changing them, and that feels good in the moment. It's interesting to do. But also it's like four senators showed up- what I mean, and so- and they were mostly women from progressive women from Oklahoma City who were gonna vote with us anyway. Sometimes at the state level, it even it feels it can feel a little daunting. But because of that, I think that groups like OkEq and Freedom Oklahoma need to continue the pressure because- and sometimes it's just luck, right, sometimes things just line up in ways you can't expect, like we got law enforcement to to get on board with decriminalizing needles to a degree, and that's not the group that I would have thought would have supported us, but they're the groups getting stuck when they do frisking right. Jeremy Simmons: Sometimes something comes from a place , and so it's like, oh, legislators will listen to them, in conjunction with other community groups and public health people, to to maybe decriminalize this. So we understand it's like: no, we need cleaner needles so that everyone, not just the people that are using, but everybodyhas fewer blood-borne pathogens that they have to worry about. So there definitely needs to keep happening. That's harder for me to be engaged with personally. As I've gotten older, as I've lived and been an American, America has gotten overwhelmingly more gay-friendly and Oklahoma has not. There's pockets, in Tulsa and Oklahoma City that are way more gay-friendly. But I just think everybody understands that those are little isolated oases. Dennis Neill: Now that you're kind of free from HOPE, that stability, but also that confinement of being in that one job, do you still feel like you're anchored in Tulsa, or are you anxious to experiment, go other places? Jeremy Simmons: I'm open to see where the future takes me. Some friends of mine moved to Spain recently, and they're making a big pitch for me to come to Spain with them. Which sounds kind of ridiculous, but then also I'm like, there's certain skills like bartending that are kind of universal. It's easier to be a bartender in places like Spain than it is to be a phlebotomist. So, maybe. We'll see. I really like being here, though. I love... when I came here, I just knew almost no one. I had tons of casual acquaintances at first. And building up all these deep friendships and seeing these nonprofits and these cool, unique little businesses thrive here, and being able to even just support them a little bit in some way, has been really lovely. I really love Tulsa. So, I'm very open to anything now. I don't feel... So, forever, I did feel like... And I didn't fully understand this until I left, but I felt like I had to stay. 23 �And I don't really know why, because everybody else left a long time ago from the 90s, but I felt like I had to keep HOPE going. I personally had to make sure that HOPE was going, which is dumb. Everybody eventually ages out. Everybody dies, if nothing else. And then everybody gets tired. Like, when you're helping people... I was a full-time employee for 24 years. And I loved it for a lot of that. And then, towards the end, I didn't love it anymore. I think sometimes when you're helping people, you have to make a choice to go do something else that's more fun or go do something else that makes more money for a while. I'm not sure. I'm sure there are the Mother Teresa types that can do it indefinitely. But I'm like, I need to... so, whatever I'm doing in the future, for the latter part of my life, I need to get paid more per hour than what I was at HOPE, or having more fun than what I was getting at HOPE towards the end. It has to be at least one of those two things. Preferably both. Everybody wants that job, and that's hard to find. But I did feel very anchored to HOPE. I was just like, we are one and the same. To the point that I'm not sure it was super healthy, honestly. Dennis Neill: Well, you provide us with a valuable history about HOPE, AIDS, and your engagement. Are there any final comments you want to make as we bring the interview to conclusion? Jeremy Simmons: While the current federal administration is abysmal, I think this is some dying last gasps of some outmoded thinking. And so while things feel very dark right now, I think things are about to get much better in the next several years. And here, and everywhere else in the United States. And I really appreciate everybody who's been involved with HOPE, and OkEq, and all the other groups. Tulsa Cares, Our House, all the other LGBT groups, all the other HIV and Hep C and harm reduction groups like SHOTS. I just love that I know so many people that are doing so much great work. And it keeps me... While I personally need a break from it, I love getting on social media. I love showing up to the Equality Center. I love going to a gala randomly somewhere and seeing all of the support that Tulsa still has to give. So, I think the future's going to be great. And I appreciate y'all taking some time with me. And I appreciate everybody who's interested enough in this to listen to it. And just keep reminding yourself that even though things look very... feel very heavy right now, this is temporary. It will shift back. Dennis Neill: Jeremy, thank you so much. This is an invaluable interview. And we look forward to your continued advocacy in our community. Thank you very much. Jeremy Simmons: Thank you. 24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Jeremy Simmons Interview Description An account of the resource Jeremy Simmons shares his journey of self-discovery and advocacy within the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in a conservative, religious environment, he navigated the complexities of his sexual identity while facing societal expectations and bullying. His experiences shaped his commitment to community engagement and HIV awareness, leading his long-time involvement first as a volunteer and then 30 years as an HIV educator and tester with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then HOPE. Jeremy reflects on the challenges of nonprofit management and expresses hope for the future of the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the importance of continued advocacy and support. Subject The topic of the resource Jeremy Simmons Oral History Project Interview from January 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeremy Simmons, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 21, 2026 2026 AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV education Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV HIV Education HIV Outreach Education Program HIV Outreach Education Program (HOPE) HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDs outreach HOPE interview Jeremy Simmons OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/9c370c2ade14307e6a1b7cac51fd997a.mp4 8c86d9871f18be29287a1c8d06288d8e https://history.okeq.org/files/original/6100ee390b88b4e5687d17fa8a967f00.pdf c25b26bcfe904aa3a2707aed1621f55c PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: Jan 16, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video, February 28, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Summary In this engaging conversation, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their personal journeys, highlighting their experiences growing up in Oklahoma and navigating their identities as members of the LGBTQ+ community. Marcy recounts her childhood in Tulsa, her education at Oklahoma Christian College, and her early awareness of her sexual orientation. She reflects on the challenges faced by LGBTQ+ individuals in a conservative environment, including the need for stealth and the importance of finding community. Sue, on the other hand, shares her upbringing in Ponca City, her academic journey at OSU, and the pivotal moment when she realized her feelings for her best friend. Both women discuss their relationships, the evolution of their identities, and the significance of community support in their lives. As they delve deeper into their experiences, Marcy and Sue recount their involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights and the development of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. They reflect on the challenges of coming out to their families, the societal pressures they faced, and the importance of creating a safe space for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. Their stories are filled with humor, resilience, and a sense of belonging, showcasing the power of love and community in overcoming adversity. In this episode, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their inspiring journey of establishing a community center for the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They recount the grassroots efforts that began in the late 2 �1980s, during the AIDS crisis, when they faced skepticism and pushback from within their own community. Despite the challenges, they successfully organized fundraising events, such as house parties and the Wild Hearts Ball, to raise awareness and funds. Their determination led to significant milestones, including securing a $10,000 grant from a New York foundation and eventually purchasing a permanent space for their community center, which became a hub for support, celebration, and activism. The conversation highlights the importance of physical spaces for community gathering, especially in a time when virtual connections are prevalent. Marcy and Sue emphasize the need for ongoing support and engagement within the community, particularly in light of recent political challenges. They reflect on the center's role in pivotal moments for LGBTQ+ rights, including the legalization of same-sex marriage and the repeal of discriminatory laws. Their message is clear: maintaining a physical home for the community is essential for fostering connection, support, and resilience against adversity. Keywords LGBTQ+, Tulsa, Oklahomans for Human Rights, coming out, community support, Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, personal stories, Marcy Smith, Sue Welch, LGBTQ+ history, LGBTQ+ community, Tulsa, fundraising, community center, activism, AIDS crisis, grassroots efforts, Wild Hearts Ball, same-sex marriage, community support Takeaways ● "I knew pretty early probably 10 or 11 years of age." ● "You just find your people and can do things." ● "It was kind of a cover, right?" ● "I felt like I was living in the 1950s." ● "It was a pivotal thing to see that." ● "I think they were upset that they were having to deal with it." ● "My family has always been very progressive, very liberal." ● "We moved into a duplex that I had previously moved into." ● "We developed a campaign for a permanent visible presence." 3 �● "It was fantastic because I think we had such a large group." It was a very grassroots campaign, one person at a time. ● We had to prove ourselves first before getting large donations. ● We wanted to bring disparate groups together behind the same cause. ● The community bought into this; it was a beautiful thing. ● We had to create a physical space for gathering and support. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 01:16 Marcy's Childhood and Education 12:10 Sue's Upbringing and Early Relationships 24:00 Finding Community in Tulsa 38:55 Coming Out to Family and Friends 46:58 Involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights 48:21 Grassroots Beginnings: Building Support 52:28 Creating Community Events for Fundraising 01:00:10 Challenges and Triumphs in Fundraising 01:08:50 Finding a Permanent Home for the Center 01:18:31 The Grand Opening and Community Impact 01:25:42 Reflections on Community and Future Challenges __________________________________________________________________ ____ 4 �Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Oral History Interview Jan 16, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today's date is Friday, January the 16th, 2026, at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma. And we have Marcy Smith and Sue Welch. For our archival purposes, would you please give us your name, your age as today's date. Marcy Smith: Me, Marcy Smith, 62, gonna be 63 this year. Sue Welch: Sue Welch, 64. Toby Jenkins: Joining me in the interview today is the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Dennis R. Neill, and Amanda Thompson, who is the archivist at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, which houses the Nancy and Joe MacDonald Rainbow Library [where this interview is being conducted]. Marcy, tell us a little bit about your childhood and your family. When were you born? Marcy Smith: October 10th, 1963, right here in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: What hospital? Marcy Smith: Well, I thought I was born in St. John, but recently, I found out I was born in Hillcrest. Toby Jenkins: And so your family was from Tulsa? Marcy Smith: Yes, my mom's family eventually was from Tulsa, but they had spent some time in Texas for quite some time. And then my dad was a sales rep for Skelly Oil Company and moved around a lot. I was born in Tulsa, and then 11 months later, my sister Karen was born in Joplin. And then 18 months after that, my sister Cindy was born in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Then we hung out in Arkansas for a little bit and then came back to Tulsa, so yeah. Toby Jenkins: Did you go to school? Marcy Smith: Went to- yes, went to elementary school, where the center now is for- at 11th and Utica, went to Jefferson Elementary School, which does not exist anymore, because of the center now, so. Toby Jenkins: The center for those with physical challenged? Marcy Smith: Yes, yes, not Oklahomans for Equality Center. 5 �Marcy Smith: So went to school there, and then we moved way out south in 1971 to Jenks, which was- Woodland Hills Mall didn't even exist. That 71st and Memorial, it was a gravel road still. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and it was called Jenks USA. Marcy Smith: That's right, it was Jenks USA, and it was way the heck out there. So we moved out to Jenks and then finished school at Jenks High School, and thenToby Jenkins: And what year did you graduate? Marcy Smith: Graduated 1982. Toby Jenkins: 1982. Marcy Smith: Then went toToby Jenkins: How many were in your graduating class at Jenks? Marcy Smith: I think there were 482 people, something like that, yeah. And then went to Oklahoma Christian College for a couple of years. Toby Jenkins: Which is locatedMarcy Smith: In Edmond, Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Marcy Smith: Still is. Toby Jenkins: And it's a disciple’s college? Marcy Smith: It's Church of Christ. Toby Jenkins: Church of Christ, okay. And that's where you went for your undergraduate degree? Marcy Smith: Couple years there, and the reason I went was that my best friend from high school was Church of Christ, and I didn't have a- it's like, "Okay, I'll go there, that's fine." And ran into probably one of the largest groups of gays and lesbians on the planet. It's kind of a joke. Anyway, although it was not a veryToby Jenkins: At the Christian University? Marcy Smith: At the Christian College. 6 �Toby Jenkins: Right. Marcy Smith: Lots of gays and lesbians, lots of people trying to escape their parents in the small town. So it was kind of a- I guess it was what you would call a beard, right? It was a cover. So they're like, "Oh yeah, we're gonna go to a Christian's college and fix ourselves." But that was not happening there. So anyway. Although when they caught someone, it was pretty brutal how they dealt with getting rid of students at the college when they found out they were gay or lesbian, so. Toby Jenkins: So you went thereMarcy Smith: I was there for a couple years, and my best friend was in love with a guy back in Tulsa. She just couldn't finish- she had to come back to Tulsa. So there really wasn't anything for me to stay there for, so I came back to Tulsa and finished my degree at the University of Tulsa.Graduated in 1986 with an MIS degree, which was one of the very first computer science and business majors at the University of Tulsa. We were the second class, and I think there were only about seven of us. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year? Marcy Smith: That was 1986. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and how big was the computer in those days? Marcy Smith: Well, soToby Jenkins: It wasn't on- it couldn't be on your desk yet, could it? I think- yeah. Marcy Smith: Well, no, no, yeah. No, but it was heading that way. It was heading that way. So, no, they were pretty big, pretty big computers. But I pushed it as long as I possibly could, so that I didn't have to use punch cards to do my programming. And thankfully, I got out of that, so. But computers as we would know them are desktops. I think that was around 1991-1992, or something like that, when that became kinda mainstream. Toby Jenkins: And did you go work for a company, or were youMarcy Smith: Fresh out of college, I ended up- I had two job offers. One was to be a tape hanger for American Airlines in their computer room. The other was to be a programmer analyst for Tulsa County. My dad thought I made a really horrible mistake by not working for American Airlines on the third shift hanging tapes, which was like an aerobic exercise job at the time. 7 �You can imagine their processing center and imagine their processing center today. But yeah, he thought I was silly for- 'cause I would've gotten fine benefits and stuff like that, so. But I never looked back on that. It's not what I wanted to do, so. Toby Jenkins: And how long were you with Tulsa County? Marcy Smith: About 18 years. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Toby Jenkins: And so are you gonna be able to draw your Tulsa County pension? Marcy Smith: As a matter of fact, in November of 2025, I got my first retirement check. Marcy Smith: So yeah, I'm happy about that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. They didn't pay us much, but we've got pension. Marcy Smith: No. But yeah, the benefits are really good. Yeah, but when I left Tulsa County in 2004, that rule of '80, I thought, there's just no way I'm gonna reach that, right? So that was 22 years ago. But as it got closer and closer, I was really happy about it, so we'll have some fun on that. Toby Jenkins: So you encountered other lesbian and gay students. Is that when you begin to realizeMarcy Smith: No, no. I knew pretty early, probably 10 or 11 years of age. Marcy Smith: And then, just because of the climate, dated- in quotes, dated guys in high school and got asked in high school because there was some stuff going on with the girls' basketball team, which I was on the basketball team. There were several lesbians on the basketball team. And so there got to be a kind of an uproar at some point. People were being questioned. And so my parents sat me down and I just lied straight to their face, 'cause I didn't wanna be in the middle of it. So thankfully, got out of that without a whole lot of issues, so. But it was a- Jenks back then, it was a pretty rural school. A lot of bubba's running around, a lot of individuals threatening people and some violence and vandalism of cars and stuff like that going on, so. So I didn't wanna call attention to it. Toby Jenkins: At college, even at your Christian college, I mean, did you hang out with those individuals and y'all just kind of were stealth atMarcy Smith: Well, yeah, you know how we are. We find our people, right? And so you hang out with your people. And so yeah, it was just a matter of just figuring out what you 8 �can and cannot do. But I will say- yeah, Oklahoma Christian College was smaller than my high school.When we went there, and I felt like I was living in the 1950s. When we got on campus, the girls dorms were locked at night, the guys were not. The guys could do whatever they wanted at night after hours on the weekend, stuff like that. I knew I wasn't gonna be long for that. It was just like, well, I'm just going here because my friend was here. And once that started happening, I just felt like I was caged in and so- but it was kind of odd environment. It kinda felt like you were in a bubble, this Christian bubble, and everything was wonderful and fine and all of that. Who knows what the administrators thought, but that wasn't what was going on behind the scenes with the students and stuff, so you just find your people and can do things. I ended up getting a job at a really nice restaurant there in Edmond called Joe Kelly's and it was a steakhouse, and people would have their high school events there and graduation and stuff like that. But I was the first- it was called a barback, so you're a bartender's assistant. Here I am going to a Christian college and I'm working at a bar, and when I would come home at night after doing my shift at the restaurant, I was literally covered in alcohol and smoke, 'cause you could smoke back then, right? At 02:00-03:00 in the morning, I had to wake up the resident assistants, this woman who took care of us at the dorm, had to wake her up at 02:00 AM in the morning, coming in just covered in alcohol. So anyway, that was kinda funny, people would do that. Toby Jenkins: Did you start socializing with this group of students who were in hiding, or did that happen when you got to TU? I mean, when did you create a clique of friends, whoMarcy Smith: When I left Oklahoma Christian College which was in Edmond, obviously, and came home to Tulsa, I really didn't stay in touch with most of them. They were from all over Oklahoma and all over the country, actually. So when I came back to Tulsa, I came back to Tulsa because I had a relationship with a woman at the time. We ended up moving in together and I finished out my degree at University of Tulsa at that point, and then just kinda started hanging out with everybody here in Tulsa, so really kinda through the softball chain of- I mean, just kinda how it was. Toby Jenkins: Lesbian day, or? Marcy Smith: Yeah, yeah, that's right, softball stuff. And then, the bars at the time and line dancing and all that kinda stuff. So you're going out to the bars andToby Jenkins: Do you remember what bars you went to? 9 �Marcy Smith: Oh. Well, I can't remember the name of the bar that was on Memorial there at 15th Street. Toby Jenkins: TNT's? Marcy Smith: No. Well, it wasn't- no, it was prior to TNT's and where people were playingyou know the name of the bar? Sue Welch: The Club. Marcy Smith: The Club, it's called The Club. So anyway, you had to knock and they open up the window and let you in, and all that kinda stuff. Toby Jenkins: And that was at 15th at Memorial? Marcy Smith: 15th, right, yeah, yeah, 15th Street, dead-ended, right into Memorial. And then, The Club was there and it was like a little house, actually. It wasn't very big. But they had an outdoor space, so volleyball and have fires and stuff like that. You can hang out outside The Club. Sue Welch: Jodie and Mary owned it. Marcy Smith: Yeah. So thenToby Jenkins: And it was a girls club? Marcy Smith: Yeah. And then you had the star, Silver Star, right? So that was 15th and Sheridan, and then TNT's. And then, theMarcy Smith: Off of Yale, what was it? 34th and Yale. There's also a club called the Crash Landing at the time [Crash Landing was at 5th and S. Lewis], that was a pretty coolToby Jenkins: So is Zippers closed by this time? Marcy Smith: No, Zippers- was it always called Zippers? I don't know if it was always called Zippers or not, but that was another place that we would go to, so. Toby Jenkins: So softball. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And these are clubs. Marcy Smith: Yes. 10 �Toby Jenkins: Did you know anything about Oklahomans for Human Rights or pride, or? Marcy Smith: I guess it was probably real early 90s when I got involved with OHR, TOHR. That was kinda the transition time, I think, when it was moving from those names and stuff over. Specifically, I believe it was when we were over on Peoria, I think. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Marcy Smith: So that's kinda the first access in trying to assist and volunteer and stuff like that, so. Toby Jenkins: Let's put Sue on the hot seat. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And see how similar her story is or how different it is. Before we do that, I wanna ask you, tell me about meeting Sue. Marcy Smith: It was a New Year's Eve party at a friend's house. Lots of people there, I don't know, probably 30 or 40 women, maybe more than that. And this will date us- so it was all about Trivial Pursuit. So we're playing Trivial Pursuit, it's pretty competitive. She walked in with her then-partner, and I was around a coffee table or something like that, knee-deep in the Trivial Pursuit. And I just looked up and she walked in with her then-partner. And it wasI don't know how- maybe I said something to someone like, "Who's that?" They were like, "Sue Welch and Darlene." So anyway, that's how we met, but there was something at that just initial glance. And so anyway, I'll let her tell the rest, but it was just a party. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Beautiful. Sue, where were you born and where are you from? Sue Welch: I was born in Ponca City, Oklahoma on April 30th, 1961. Dennis was born there too, it's our hometown, both of us. Marcy Smith: It's in the water. Sue Welch: Yeah. A nice, sweet little, small town, a great town to be born and raised in. Not a great town to stay, but a great town to be born and raised in. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Were you born in the hospital there? Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what was the name of that hospital? Sue Welch: Ponca City Hospital. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. And tell us about your family. Sue Welch: My family, my mother's Cherokee and my dad is English. And they had a great love affair and were married till they passed and were wonderful parents. But my dad is a third-generation brick mason. Hiss grandfather, before statehood, had a brick yard in Ponca City. And he built the first brick home. So from my great-grandfather to my grandfather to my father and his brothers, it was a third-generation brick mason company, Welch Masonry Construction. Toby Jenkins: So they've been there for a while. Are there still- if you were to go to Ponca City today, are there still buildings that they built? Sue Welch: Oh, dozens and dozens, yes. Buildings and homes, yes. Yeah, you could have a Welch Masonry tour of Ponca City. Toby Jenkins: So did you go to school in Ponca City? Sue Welch: Yes, I went to Ponca City High School. And it was- we actually had a very large graduating class. It was 415 people for our graduating class. And I thought it wasToby Jenkins: So you all probably played Jenks in sports. Sue Welch: I wasn't really into sports. I don't know that. Could be. But I studied a lot. Sue Welch: Well, it may have been a little too far away. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. Sue Welch: Maybe at state and regionals, but not on a conference level. Sue Welch: I wouldn't have known. I went to the football games just for fun. So don't ask me any of those stats. Marcy Smith: Too popular. Sue Welch: I was the prom queen. So there's that. Toby Jenkins: Says so much. Sue Welch: But not the football queen, so. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So what year did you graduate? Sue Welch: I graduated in 1979. 12 �Toby Jenkins: And did you go to school after that? Sue Welch: Yes, after that, I went to OSU. And in 1983, got my degree in natural sciences, my bachelor's degree in natural sciences. Loved OSU. That was great. That was where my best friend and I started having deeper feelings about each other, so…in high school and throughout a large- oh, the first half of college, my boyfriend from high school, the wrestling star, we became engaged. So in high school- in college, we were going to be married right after college. My best friend and I started becoming very, very close, and I just kept thinking, "Oh my God, I can't graduate and leave my friend. This would be horrible." And we just kept getting deeper and deeper feelings, and I thought, "What is going on here?" Sue Welch: And so I talked to my mom about it, and I said, "I think I'm going crazy or something." She said, well, honey, I can't believe that any love is wrong. And I never looked back. So I left my fiancé. Toby Jenkins: And that would've been- you would've been ... Marcy Smith: She called off the wedding. Yeah. Sue Welch: Yeah. Sue Welch: The dress was all done. The invitations were ... - yeah. It was on the way. Marcy Smith: The colors were picked, all the stuff. Toby Jenkins: The runaway bride. Marcy Smith: Yes. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. How old would you've been? Sue Welch: So that would have been, let's see, right when I graduated, right at 1983. So 21, 22. Toby Jenkins: So you had this discussion with your mother. I'm just guessing there probably weren't a bunch of lesbians in Ponca City to help mentor you. Sue Welch: There may have been, but I did not know them. Toby Jenkins: Okay. 13 �Sue Welch: I didn't know anyone in the community. I didn'tToby Jenkins: It's 'cause you weren't going to softball camp. Sue Welch: That's right. My gaydar was not tuned at the time, so yeah. Toby Jenkins: You went to OSU. What was that experience like for you now that you had ended that relationship and probably were figuring out? Sue Welch: We moved into a house together, and we had a few friends, both of us. We were each other's first experience, and so neither of us knew of any community per se, but we did find a few friends, half a dozen, 10 friends that we hung out with a little bit. Then we broke up, and someone introduced me to a woman in Tulsa. And when I left OSU and came to Tulsa to establish my practice here, there was a huge community. So many people. I was just like, "Wow, this is amazing." So much so that my partner was a teacher, and my sister, when she would visit, she said, "Well, are all teachers lesbians?" So such a great, huge community. So that was fantastic to experience. Marcy Smith: Well, and you have gay guy friends to this day from OSU. Sue Welch: Well, not from a- well, they were gone at the same time. Yeah, but we didn't hang out a lot. We found each other kind of after. In Tulsa. And I was like, "I knew you in OSU." So we kind of, all of us were in hiding there once I did come out of OSU. Toby Jenkins: So you didn't really connect to the LGBTQ community at OSU. It was when you came to Tulsa. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And when you say there was a huge community, what did that look like? Sue Welch: Oh my gosh. Toby Jenkins: Were there just house parties, or people went to eat together, or? Sue Welch: House parties, going to the bars, dancing, potlucks, softball. My partner was a well-respected softball umpire, so lots of softball. Of course she was. And so yeah, just a lot of socializing. A lot of socializing. Toby Jenkins: Did either of you ladies ever interact with the flag football team, the girls' flag football team? Sue Welch: No. 14 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, that's who helped me come out. I always say I was raised by wolves, because the girls' flag football team. So it was a huge community, and you were in a relationship. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what was your career at this time? Sue Welch: I was licensed by the medical board as an electrologist. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: And I did that for 22 years in Broken Arrow and in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: And you were in a relationship. Do you remember kinda what the environment was like for you in Tulsa, what it was like to go to gay clubs and, as you said, find so many people? Sue Welch: It was fantastic. Because I think we had so many- such a large group, I didn't recognize feeling a lot of threat. I knew some of our male counterparts were threatened. But we just didn't go to places that allowed us to be threatened. We didn't go out unless we were in big numbers. We only went to certain places. The Club was very private, very protected. So that's kind of what that was like. Toby Jenkins: And what was that like? You hit the parking lot, and the minute you walk through the doorSue Welch: Yeah, it's freedom. Yeah, freedom. Toby Jenkins: You could hold hands. Like, cheers, hey. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: You could hold hands? Yeah. Sue Welch: Yeah, freedom, absolutely. Sue Welch: But not out at work, not out to any clients, not out to friends who were not LGBT. Toby Jenkins: So I'm gonna ask you both this question, but tell me about the first time you saw Marcy. 15 �Sue Welch: So it was a party, and my partner and I walked in, and there were people playing at a table. And Marcy has these beautiful brown piercing eyes, and so I noticed her naturally. And it was probably another year after, and it was a New Year's party, and it struck midnight. And I'm a pretty private person, private physically. I'm very demonstrative, but kissing on the lips was really a personal thing for me. And it struck midnight, and Marcy just planted a kiss right on my lips. And I was like, "Wow." Marcy Smith: She wasn't the only person that I kissed. Sue Welch: Well, no. Marcy Smith: I mean, it was New Year's Eve. Everybody ... . Sue Welch: Marcy wasn't as protective of her lips as I was. So but yes, I was like, "Oh, my God." That was sparky. So yeah. And then our partners, the four of us became close friends, and you know the story. So we could not- we were inseparable. And we all four worked on our partnerships. We knew there were some feelings. But we were inseparable and just in so much pain not being able to see each other that the partnership split. AndToby Jenkins: For you all to be together? Marcy Smith: Yep. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That would've been what year? Marcy Smith: '92. Toby Jenkins: '92? Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: In the 1900s. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Sue Welch: In the 1900s, we got together. Toby Jenkins: So I asked both of you, and you said you found community here. You found that because you got on the Internet, right? And you looked up where the gay bars were. Marcy Smith: Oh right, because the Internet existed. No, the Internet didn't quite exist yet. Well, I guess 1992-ish is about the time it started taking off. Those were chat rooms. 16 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember any public officials or movie stars or rockstars, who were out in open who you could look at and see, oh, this is how you- this is what it is? Sue Welch: Eventually, Lilly Tomlin came out. Eventually, through the horrible AIDS crisis, we saw stars, Rock Hudson die, whether they'd come out prior or not. But no, there were no authority figures, people that you could look up to, to have any kind of guidance that way. Toby Jenkins: Social media non-existent. Sue Welch No. The Gay Yellow Pages, literally a book that you would look in to find places. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Couldn't text people messages. Marcy Smith: Nope, nope. Sue Welch: No. Toby Jenkins: Couldn't send them pictures. Marcy Smith: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So we've talked about you meeting each other. Could you just real quickly emphasize to us and our viewers, what it was like when you had the discussion with your families to say, I'm a lesbian, I have a partner. Or can you kind of tell about those experiences, if you had those experiences with your parents. Marcy Smith: My family is kinda the 'don't ask, don't tell' family. Don't mess with my stuff. I'm not gonna mess with your stuff. We're not gonna have a lot of drama. So all this time, I was just kinda living my life, but wasn't really putting it in my parents' face, so to speak. Obviously, I wasn't bringing any guys home. And then Sue and I had been together for a little bit. But so what happened was, well, same-sex marriage didn't exist. So there was a company, a travel company called Olivia Travel Company. They were also a record company at the time that was promoting lesbian artists. And so it's an all-women's cruise, which is really neat. So Sue and I were gonna do that. And on these cruises, because you could not get legally married, they would haveSue Welch: Union ceremonies. Marcy Smith: Unions, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Commitment ceremony. 17 �March Smith: A commitment ceremony. So that's how my family found out, because we sent out announcements to my family that Sue and I were going to have a commitment ceremony in Mexico, and that's how my family found out. It was kind of ripply, quite frankly. And it was kinda like, I guess, how people can be like, how could you not know that Sue and I were a couple, but sometimes straight people don't really see things. So it was a little bit rough. We timed it pretty quickly before we went to the- so we could hurry up and get out of town and get on the cruise and let my family deal with it. So that's kinda how my family found out, which was literal announcement. Toby Jenkins: So you said it was rough. I mean, were they upset, or were they questioning you, or just mad that you hadn't told them before? Marcy Smith: Yeah, yeah. I think they- I don't know, 'cause I didn't really sit down and talk with them quite honestly. It was like, just y'all deal with it. Sue Welch: I think they were upset that they were having to deal with it. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Sue Welch: They were being forced to deal with it. Marcy Smith: Yes. Yeah, and this was something that they probably had pushed down for decades, obviously. It's like, "Oh my gosh, now they have to come to terms with it." I think my parents probably thought, in some form or fashion, that they had failed, and all those things that you hear. But ultimately, my mom embraced us and kinda became the mom down here at the center. So mom spent at least 10 years, I think, or more volunteering down at the center and baking brownies for people and things like that. So she committed to that once, I think, she came to terms with it. And so that was really neat. Sue Welch: She was great. Toby Jenkins: Sue, what about you, your family? I know you'd had the conversation with your mother. Sue Welch: Well, my family found out about our commitment ceremony in the same way, with the announcements. But all through Marcy had been my third relationship. And all through…they knew about my relationships, accepted my partners, and were very loving and accepting. Accepted them as family, they came to family reunions. So when we sent out the announcements, I got calls, "That sounds nice, honey. Well, good for you." 18 �Ohe worst one, or the most uncomfortable one, I guess, was from one of my sisters, and she just called and said, "Well, I just wanna call and tell you I got your announcement about your thing. And just wanna tell you I got it." That was about the most outside effect. But my family has just always been- I've been so fortunate, the way they've accepted me. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Do you think your family's had issues with religion and sexuality? Were those any kinda struggles or politics? I mean, they were super conservative politically. Did they seem to show concern about how this was gonna make them look in their business or around, don't tell your grandmother. I mean, was there any kind of those? Marcy Smith: I think, from my father's perspective, that he was concerned about his reputation and his business reputation and the country club stuff and all of that. I remember in particular, he wanted a trip to Paris and through his company and he's like, "I don't wanna go to Paris. And I said, "Well, I'd like to go to Paris. I'll go on that trip." And it was an oil company trip thing and- so before it got too far down the line, he made it very clear to me that I was not to take my partner with me to on this trip. And so it was like, "You can take your mom." And so I said, "Okay, I'm gonna go to the city of love and take my mom." I mean, I love my mom, but. So anyway, so that was made very, very clear, that I was supposed to basically behave, in front of his peers and cronies and stuff like that for that trip, so. Toby Jenkins: Were you able to bring girlfriends home to your parents’ houses, your mom or dad's house for gatherings? Marcy Smith: So I mean, like Sue said, it's not like I was this dating feen. We had two- one, I had one, but I had a high school relationship but that was not, quite frankly, ever gonna go anywhere, but anyway. So two basic relationships before I got with Sue. Sue and I have been together for 34 years now, so it wasn't like there were this a bunch of women that I was bringing home. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about you, Sue? Did the family feel any- I mean, were you able to take… Sue Welch: Oh yeah, yeah, from the get-go. My first relationship, second relationship, Marcy, they were all included in holidays, gatherings, accepted by my family and my sister that has lived in Oklahoma for- not currently, but for most of her life. Yeah, they were just part of the family and my partner. 19 �Marcy Smith: And I would agree with that. I don't want it to sound like my family was wanted me to not bring. ..I mean, they were- whoever I brought home, part of the family. My mom was one of seven children, so everybody was welcome. Toby Jenkins: No political pushback, no religious pushback? Marcy Smith No, because we are the 'don't ask, don't tell' family. So we didn't really bring that stuff up at all. Toby Jenkins: What about you, Sue? Sue Welch: No, no, my family's always been very progressive, very liberal, although we were raised in a fairly strict Lutheran Church, my family's never been that linear. Their Christianity really is what would Jesus do and love everyone. Toby Jenkins: Fortunate. Do you both feel fortunate that you were born into the families you were born into? Marcy Smith: Yes Sue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: 'Cause we're about to change gears just a little bit here, because surely, as you were hanging out at what places identified as the community, you were encountering people who did not have those experiences, could not take partners home, hadn't spoke to their families. I know that was something you probably were saying. So you're together…You're building your life together. I mean, did you move into an apartment together? Was there a U-Haul involved? We've always heard- I meanSue Welch: We moved into a duplex that I had previously moved into and we- then Marcy, moved in. Then we purchased the duplex and then we purchased a home in Midtown. Marcy Smith: Well, no, we purchased a second duplex. So we had two duplexes. Sue Welch: And then we purchased a home in Midtown, which we were renovating while we still lived in the first duplex. And when we moved to Midtown, it's kind of when we started finding more out about the gay pride parades and the center on Peoria and going to the center on Peoria, and seeing a little gift shop. And just- but for me, all the kids, the young kids that were there, and thinking, "Gosh, had I known about that sooner, I may have come out sooner, I don't know." but it was just- it was a pivotal thing to see that. Toby Jenkins: And of course, were you- at this time Marcy, you were still working for Tulsa County. Did they know? 20 �Marcy Smith I did not come out to- I mean literally say this to my peers, but I didn't hide my relationship with Sue and whenever we had- if we were doing chili cook-offs or whatever we were doing forToby Jenkins: Holiday parties. Marcy Smith: - fundraisers or things like that, it was just assumed that Sue would be there. So- but no, I didn't literally say to my boss, "This is who Sue is." Toby Jenkins: So you don't feel like you've experienced discrimination, justMarcy Smith: I don't know if I did or not, I just head down, get my career going and all that kinda stuff. So I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Just out of curiosity, would you have had a desk and would on your desk, would there have been a picture of your partner, and would you've had somebody ask you, like a new employee might say, "Are you married, do you have husband, do you have kids?" I meanMarcy Smith: I- to be honest, I cannot remember if I had a picture of SueSue Welch: You weren't out that much. Marcy Smith: No, no. No, I did not push that. No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Okay. Sue, you had your medical profession. And what about with your clients? I mean, were youSue Welch: No, not out all. Toby Jenkins: You guarded that very carefully. Sue Welch: I may have had two clients that I was out to, but that's it. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you've moved to Brookside, the Rainbow Ribbon, as it's called. And the center, as you call it, was just down the street. And what did that center look like? Sue Welch: It was small. It was small. It wasn't well appointed. I mean it was fantastic 'cause it served a great purpose, but just in comparison to where we're sitting now, it was small and not greatly appointed. It was hidden. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't accessible. 21 �Sue Welch: You had to go in a small door, climb some stairs. There wasn't signage, so that's kinda what I remember. The store was very, very small, maybe just one cabinet, some jewelry or something, as I recall. Toby Jenkins: And you would go to pride? Sue Welch: Yes, at that time, at least for a couple or few times, the pride parade went down Peoria, which was fantastic. So we started doing that and then we would go to pride every year beyond that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. When did- I mean, did you volunteer or did you just support it? Sue Welch: We mostly just supported at that time. And there were starting to be visible churches that were supportive, and there was one on Peoria also, and so we'd usually stand at that location. Toby Jenkins: That would've been All Souls ... ? Sue Welch: No, further south... . Toby Jenkins: Southwest Presbyterian, or? Sue Welch: Probably that Presbyterian one, yeah. Marcy Smith: It wasn't Southminster. It's not there anymore. It's right there where the green space is across from Charleston's. Sue Welch: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, the United Methodist Church. Marcy Smith: Yes, it was the United Methodist Church. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I know. I forget the name of that, but. Okay, so you'd watch the parade. Sue Welch: And we'd join in at the end of the parade. At that time it was small enough, you could just walk with it. Toby Jenkins: Now did you ever attend the events like before the parade, where we had to walk down the sidewalks? Sue Welch: I don't know that we knew about those events. 22 �Toby Jenkins: Prior to that? Okay. And so the center was the headquarters of Tulsa Oklahoma for Human Rights, right? Correct? That y'all had already branded by that? Okay. Dennis Neill: Since '85. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And, so you were there. I know that somewhere along the line, you got into the cause, got drafted, recruited, or fell into it accidentally. The desire for us to have a more permanent home because we weren't at- the center was not at that location very long, was it? Sue Welch: No. Toby Jenkins: And then it moved. Marcy Smith: And that happened at least three times within a fairly five to six year period of time. Because somehow or another, we got a lease signed but eventually the landlords weren't really happy about the clientele. Not that it was rowdy or outrageous or anything like that. So then we moved to, or TOHR moved to the space at 21st and Memorial by TNTs, the bar there. Toby Jenkins: Above TNT's. Marcy Smith: Above TNT's. And not a very, in my opinion, positive space because the smoke was seeping through the cinder block. It got to the point, I couldn't spend much time there because of how- it just was not a positive space. And that's kinda where the rumblings of the capital campaign happened. But yeah, we got recruited at a party by Nancy McDonald. We didn't know why we got invited to this party. Sue Welch: It was actually more surreptitious than that. We started having more friends, and so we got invited to this party. She was there but she told someone after that party, "You need to call those girls and get them involved." So we got a call and were asked to get on this group to help develop and work on a capital campaign for a permanent equality center. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: Found out later, Nancy was the impetus for that. Toby Jenkins: And so, you got asked to serve on that? Toby Jenkins: And what were those early days like? 23 �Sue Welch: So we did have, before moving from Peoria, we did have a couple, the very first meetings there. And Marcy and I are really organized and conducting meetings, let's get something done. So I think we exhibit our leadership pretty quickly. And a lot of people don't want to be in charge. So I became the capital chair at the time. And we developed a campaign, the United Way always has a name of their campaign, so we thought we need a name for this. And so we developed the Pyramid Project. And this was a beautiful little book telling everyone about it and how it would be such a wonderful thing to have our own center, where we wouldn't have to move, a permanent visible presence. And so we just went from there and from each place we would move, we would have more meetings. We did, thanks to Dennis and Nancy as I recall, we had training from the Gill Foundation that was a weekend long. And we brought in a lot of people to that and helped develop our focus a lot more about what amount we'd be raising, how we would do that. They had some really great booklets about fundraising. And again at the time, there were no foundations in Oklahoma, much less Tulsa, who would support us until later. So it was a very grassroots campaign. It was one person at a time, one gay person in Tulsa at a time getting them on board, having them donate funds. And then we got- I remember sending out a really sappy tear-jerky letter to a foundation in New York City, who I had heard reading through these manuals with Nancy, gave money to gay causes. And they gave us our first check from a foundation, a $10,000 check from a foundation. And after that, a friend called me from the George Kaiser Foundation and said, "George was looking at the newspaper on his desk about you all and the money you're raising, and he'd like to talk with you about this and see if he could get involved." And I was like, "Okay." Dominoes, so the dominoes started. The Schusterman Foundation. But we had- before any of this large money that way, we focused on house parties, individual people, really telling them how this could happen, would happen, and it would be amazing. We had our main donors. And Dennis helped with that group and really helped us get going. So it was a house party at a time. Marcy Smith: Then again, we're still in the midst of the AIDS crisis at this time. I mean, it's still kind of going on in the late 80s and early 90s as well. And when this kicked off, I will tell you, we got some pushback from the gay guys in the community that here are two women, two- that they didn't even know. Like, we're on the D list. They don't even know who we are. Stepping up to do this. And also, at the time, there had been at least one other nonprofit 24 �organization who had a capital campaign and the funds were misused. And so of course, the thought was like, "Well, this is gonna go the same way, even though it had nothing to do with it." It was really difficult to convince, I guess you'd call them the movers and shakers at the time, in the gay community. And then, of course, trying to pull the lesbian community into it was tough. But kind of being told to our face and also hearing what was being said behind our back gave us-Fuel…some fuel to kinda set this up. And we had to do it differently, like Sue said, because we weren't in L.A, we weren't in New York, we're literally- Ford Foundation would cut a check. We didn't have that here. And so, the way we had to do it here was totally opposite. Usually, you got these big donations at the beginning that kickstarted you. And here we had to prove ourselves first. Toby Jenkins: Public dollars. Oh, the public dollars in those places. Marcy Smith: And- yeah, there's not gonna be anything from the state. Nothing was going to happen like that here. But because of that, I think it really built this incredible foundation and support for the purpose of it. And again, it was about building this home, a permanent visible presence here. Toby Jenkins: Sue, talk a little bit about how y'all used social events to create buy-in and raise money at the same time. Sue Welch: I think there were disparate clubs around town and kind of cliquish groups around town. But we wanted to really bring everybody together. So we had- and in years past, there was a large party called the Black and White Party that was hosted by gay guys in Tulsa, which was a really nicely well-attended party. But it was just a party. So we wanted to bring this disparate group of people together behind the same cause. And there had not been a citywide gay party, LGBT party in decades. And so, we developed what we called the Wild Hearts Ball. And the first one we had was at the, then Brady Mansion. And there were so many people there. And this was the first big thing that had happened in Tulsa in a long time. And so we would show a big party, nice music, nice food. We'd show a video about this and ask for donations. And it was just so compelling for people to see so many people there joining in and know that we could all do this together. Toby Jenkins: And everybody could be invited to it. Marcy Smith: Exactly. Sue Welch: Oh yeah. Toby Jenkins: It wasn't an exclusive party. 25 �Sue Welch: Exactly, it was not exclusive. Toby Jenkins: It wasn't a girl party, a boy party. Sue Welch: No. Exactly. Yeah, it was the entire community. And that was really super because of our- we would send out a quarterly newsletter. Marcy Smith: This was postal mail about ... . Sue Welch: Postal mail. This is in sizeToby Jenkins: This one's an email. Sue Welch: This is in size 11 point font. See all these names? These are $10 donors to $10,000 donors. The entire community bought into this. It was a beautiful thing. Toby Jenkins: And it was all very smooth and unified, wasn't it? Seu Welch: Yes, yes. Everyone got along. Marcy Smith: Well, no. When we look at itSue Welch: Well, behind the scenes, we had to fight to get where we were, but everyone was just really pushing in the same direction. It was great that way. Marcy Smith: And again, it's tough to get- I'm sorry, lesbians onboard, 'cause they like to do their sports, they like to do the softball and all that kinda stuff and go to the bars. And so kinda pulling them out was a little difficult. So we did- so we- so it was like how many different ways can we slice this pie and serve it up to people to get people involved? So then we came up with the concept of the Women's Tea Dance. And also supporting women owned businesses and also provide nonprofit organizations the ability toSue Welch: Showcase. Marcy Smith: - Showcase their businesses to women. So imagine that, okay? So you got an all-women Women's Tea Dance, right? We are contacting, I don't know how many places we contacted and got no after no after no after no. No, we are not going to rent to you for a bunch of lesbians. I don't know what they thought it was gonna be. Some, I don't know, orgy or something like that. So we got turned down how many times and then we finally approached Frances. Sue Welch: So the last place I went to was the Greenwood Cultural Center. And I've been everywhere. Physically, meeting face-to-face with people. And so I met with Frances, told her who we were, what we were doing, that it was for ... campaign. 26 �Marcy Smith: She's director. Sue Welch: Frances Jordan, the Executive Director of the Greenwood Cultural Center. Marcy Smith: She, by the way, is still the Executive Director of the Greenwood today. Sue Welch: So I gave all my spiel and she said, "Well, Sue." And I expected a no. "Well, Sue, here at the Greenwood Cultural Center, we do not discriminate. So we'd be happy to have you." I was like, "Yay!" So at that first one and subsequent ones, we had 300- more than 300 lesbians from all across the city. And that was fantastic. Huge gatherings. Toby Jenkins: Now to pull in women, you also did the calendar girls. Marcy Smith: So yeah, there was a movie. I don't even know when the movie was, in the mid 90s or something. It was based on a true story. The calendar girls, which was an older group of women in Great Britain, who were trying to raise money for a wing to be added on to their very small hospital. So they came up with this idea to basically have a nudie calendar. Sue Welch: A boudoir calendar. Marcy Smith: A boudoir calendar. So we did the same thing, but what we did was- and I was really proud of these women that did this, 'cause we were partially Sue Welch: We were surprised by the women who said yes. Marcy Smith: Yeah, I mean, there were some pretty revealing photographs in this calendar. So what- so we didn't know if anybody was gonna- we didn't think anybody would buy the calendar. So we had them get sponsors. So they had to recruit as many people as possible to donate a minimum of like $250 or $500 or something like that to sponsor their month. That's how we raised. I mean, we were just happy to raise $5,000 at a time. $5,000 here, $5,000 there, to start building toward this million dollar, which was a monumental amount of money. When it was determined that that's what we were gonna need to do this, I mean, the community's likeSue Welch: Can't do it. Marcy Smith: "There's no way. You will never do that. Never do that." Sue Welch: The end point was $1.3 million. Toby Jenkins: And so there were naysayers, and there were people who were divisive, and there were people who may have been difficult. You had that, right? 27 �Sue Welch: Yeah, but not for long. Marcy Smith: And once the momentum started, itToby Jenkins: So I think I remember garden parties, the garden tour. Sue Welch: We did, we had a home and garden tour. Marcy Smith: Yeah, we did. Sue Welch: We really tried to model things that- the firemen did a calendar for United Way, so-and-so did a home and garden tour for whatever. So we try to model things that would make sense. That people would kind of already know how that worked and go, "Oh my gosh, so the gay community is doing that, great, let's get on to that." Toby Jenkins: What about the LGBT film festival? Was that alsoMarcy Smith: OUT OK. Sue Welch: So OUT OK, that was really progressive for the time. That was the first LGBT out film festival. Phillip Oh and Mark Bonney were in charge of that. They brought films from everywhere, amazing films, and all the proceeds went to the capital campaign. Marcy Smith: Yeah, talk about being ahead of its time. Sue Welch: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Now there's like gay film festival all the time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So it was a long lengthy process of raising the money, but you were also creating community and building a unified vision. Very impressed that you were able to do that. But at the same time, you still had to be take care in the community. So there was community centers, yet during this time. We still had community centers and you wanna talk about some of the locations andMarcy Smith: Well, I think where we were, we were at 21st and Memorial, and I think that was a very difficult landlord. It ended up being a very difficult landlord situation. But for me personally, I was glad we got the heck out of Dodge out of that location. I think it was an oppressive location, just because of the color of it and the smell of the smoke. I mean, it just was not- it didn't feel healthy. Toby Jenkins: And it wasn't accessible there. Sue Welch: No. 28 �Marcy Smith: It wasn't welcoming. Toby Jenkins: You had to steps to go up. Sue Welch: No. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And then, got up there and the meeting room was downstairs, the bathrooms were downstairs, but we were- it was our center, and we were proud of it. Sue Welch: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Oh yeah. So the next location was the shopping center at 41st off of Yale, right across from Ricardo's Mexican restaurant, which is still there. And so that was, I would say, the best place we had been. And I'm gonna guess it was maybe 3,600 square feet, maybe. Sue Welch: Sounds about right. Yeah, maybe- 3,500. Marcy Smith: - 3,500, So it's give or take, right? And pretty much an open space, so not a lot of segregated space, where people could have private meetings or whatever they might've been doing and so but same kinda thing. We were there for a while, and then the landlord got a little weirded out and stuff. We were just trying to bide our time to get this going, so that we could own our own home instead of being kicked out eventually. And I say that- they just didn't wanna renew the lease. Or they just decided, given us notice and whatever, so. Toby Jenkins: What were some of the services that were being offered at the center? Sue Welch: Well, I'm glad you're bringing that up, Toby, because behind the scenes, while all this was going, certainly, Dennis and other people and the volunteers- Dennis was getting the Gill foundation to set up computer labs and all ofToby Jenkins: The Bohnett Foundation Sue Welch: Yes, the Bohnett. And all the services continuing, grief groups and game nights andToby Jenkins: HIV testing. Sue Welch: Yes, and counseling and all those things were still going on. Toby Jenkins: I can remember, just wanna throw this out there and get your thoughts on it. I can remember at that Center, at in the Highland Park Shopping Center, volunteering on a night where it was first time I'd ever been interacting. We had a transgender support group. 29 �So do you remember- we've talked about lesbian and gay men. Do you remember being an intentional outreach to transgender persons, or? Sue Welch: Not as far as with fundraising, because I don't think at that time we had a large group for the fundraising aspect. But certainly in the service, we established town halls finding out what people wanted, what we needed, so that we could provide that in this new place that was gonna be our permanent home. So absolutely in the services. Toby Jenkins: So you assess the community? Did y'all have surveys, or? Sue Welch: We did, at each Pride picnic, we had surveys. We had a large gathering at the library and we handed out surveys and collected information about what they want in the center, specifically as far as even rooms, art gallery, that sort of thing, kitchen, services they might want, locations they might want. Toby Jenkins: And so y'all were being paid to do all of this and you had a full-time position, right? Marcy Smith: No. Sue Welch: We had full-time positions at our jobs. Marcy Smith: : So every fundraising event for the Pyramid Project started off with a budgetSue Welch: Zero. Marcy Smith: - which was zero. That was what we started with. You're gonna donate this, you're gonna donate your time, you're gonna donate the goods, all that kinda thing. So our goal was that a lot of capital campaigns had budgets that as much as 25-30% would go to administrative overhead of what was being raised. Toby Jenkins: Paid to development workers. Marcy Smith: So our goal was to have 95% of the funds that we raised, go directly to the capital. So that meant 5% to do all this. And I think, ultimately, we ended up being aboutSue Welch: I think about seven. Marcy Smith: - 7-8% or something rather than 5%. So we were right around 92% of all the funds that were raised, stayed right there in the community foundation. That was the other thing. It was a big milestone, was going to Tulsa Community Foundation because it was about credibility. And so we needed to have our money at a place where it was managed for a place of credibility. So that was a huge milestone when we were able to have those 30 �funds placed at the Tulsa Community Foundation which they are still at today. So that was a big deal. That added some ... . Sue Welch: Yeah, through Dennis and Nancy, they introduced us to people there and got all that set up safe and safeguarded. So then, donors would feel even more comfortable. Toby Jenkins: So about how many years was the fundraising part of it? Marcy Smith: Six. Sue Welch: 6-7. Marcy Smith: Yeah, six, 2007 when we did it. Toby Jenkins: Did people grow fatigued from that? I mean, did theyMarcy Smith: Oh yeah. I mean, it didn't take too many years that when Sue and I would show up at a party, people were turning away. I mean, they knew we were gonna be pressing the flesh and, hi, how you doing? We haven't seen a donation from you in a while. But I mean, it just kinda got to be a joke. We were like, "Are we gonna get invited to anything this year?" Toby Jenkins: So I'm gonna take you back. This is your life. It's January 1st, 2000, the night after the Y2K fear. What were y'all doing on January 1st, 2000? Do you remember? Marcy Smith: Well, I can tell you what I was doing. I was head of the Y2K project at Tulsa County. So I spent that New Year's Eve in the computer room doing one of these. And it was a five-year project that I led. And I had the same budget from my boss which was, you're not gonna spend any money on this project. We weren't able to do that because of software costs, but it was a very small budget. So that's where I was. So I was in a computer room in Tulsa, Oklahoma that night. And it went perfectly, by the way. Sue Welch: Are you remembering a house party? Toby Jenkins: Yeah, on New Year's Day. Sue Welch: On New Year's Day. Marcy Smith: Oh, New Year's Day? Okay. Marcy Smith: New Year's Day, we had a house party at our house. Marcy Smith: Yeah, and invited several people. And I think we'd seen you peripherally, but this was your first time to really31 �Toby Jenkins: Be pulled into the project. Sue Welch: Yeah, yeah. To be ... . Toby Jenkins: My point isSue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - I can remember getting invited to that on New Year's Day after we had all survived. And that was my first time to hear about it. The project to raise money for our permanent center. Now, I was very familiar with the center. Sue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: But it was the first time I'd ever been included in that. And I had no money, but I was able to make just a little bitty tiny gift. But you made me feel like my little tiny gift was as important as the people who were writing the big checks. Sue Welch: It was. Toby Jenkins: So you spent five or six years raising this money and keeping the community focused on the prize. When did we buy the building? And do you wanna talk a little bit about the effort to finally purchase property? Sue Welch: So as we were getting, we set a goal that we would have a certain amount of money raised before we would even look at property. And we were reviewing a dozen or more properties over and over, as we got to that point. And Dennis called and said, "Hey, have you looked at this place at 4th and Kenosha?" And we're like, "Okay, we'll go look at that one." And so we called up the realtor who was listed there and I said, "Okay, great. I'm gonna have to talk to another realtor and tell him who we are and what we're looking for." And so went to his office and on his wall was a big picture of John F. Kennedy. I was like, "I think I'm okay." And so I met Max Tankersley and told him about who we were and he said, "Okay, great. I'd love to show you this". So we walked in and at the time, it had been a communications company, so there were wires literally everywhere. It was just full of communications things. But it was so solid because it used to be an oil company's building, where they built explosives to dig oil wells before they had the bits. So the walls are about 12 inches thick. It is just so solid. So walking through, it's really solid, it's not dirty, it's not dank, it's bright…Lots of windows, lots of space. We're thinking, "Oh my gosh, there's so much space here. But from these surveys, we could do this, we could do that, we could do all the 32 �things that the people are wanting." And so I think we probably called Dennis first and said, "Dennis, this is a really neat place." And we had a key group of donors who just kept donating, were donating substantially. And so, we rented two trolley cars. We had a nice little reception at a house in Terwilliger Heights. And we said, "We're gonna take you all to a place we want you to see that we believe this is gonna be our center." And so we got 'em all fed and liquored up and got 'em on the trolleys. And so we came in and several of them were like- because it wasn't rough compared to the things we've been looking at, but it wasn't fancy by any means. Marcy Smith: And grey. Sue Welch: And it was downtown, which was one of the locations people wanted, but not everyone. And so I think several of them went, "Oh, wow, this is really great, great vision." And some of 'em went, "Ugh, this is what you're picking? It was a little effort in getting people on board with that. So we created- we got together a group of designers and if you want to haveToby Jenkins: Gay designers. Sue Welch: Gay designers. And if you want to have fun, get a group of gay designers together and tell them, we're not paying them anything and everything they develop needs to come in free, all the accessories, all the furniture. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but they have to raise the money to furnish the room. Sue Welch: And so that was fun. Kirk Holt, I appointed him as the chair, 'cause he's great at getting all those people together. So we developed these vision boards for each of the rooms and we had more people come and more people look, and that really helped with donations. This was, of course, after we bought the building, and that helped also engage people for volunteerism, if they couldn't give or if they wanted to do more, to physically work at the building in renovations. I served as the general contractor for the renovations and we had a ... . Marcy Smith: And she got paid zero. Sue Welch: And we had literally hundreds of volunteers working thousands of hours. The things we had to hire, have electricians, licensed plumbers, that sort of thing. We certainly did that. But I mean, so many people learned how to sheet rock, insulate things, tear down walls. Some of my happiest memories are remembering these guys and looking at you Dennis, doing that work, that heavy, hard work. 33 �Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So the building was purchased, let's talk about that morning after years of fundraising and this was the- you're trying to keep everybody rowing in the right direction. Tell us about that morning, when you invited the community to come and look at it and we raised the first rainbow flag. Sue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: From our flagpole and we had ... Marcy Smith: Talking about the Field of Dreams? Sue Welch: Nope. Marcy Smith: Oh, okay. Toby Jenkins: No, I'm talking about the morning we ... Marcy Smith: Oh, the grand opening. Toby Jenkins: Well, it wasn’t the grand opening, it was the morning that we ... Sue Welch: That was our first flag. Toby Jenkins: The building was ours, and we raised the flag for the first time. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You had a bagpiper on the roof. Sue Welch: Yeah, yep, had a bagpiper on the roof, we had Rick Hollingsworth give us a blessing. Toby Jenkins: Probably, a thousand people showed up. Sue Welch: The first time so many people had even been in the building. And I remember it was so loud downstairs in the main hall. I was looking around, I'm not a loud speaker and I thought, "I've gotta find somebody, I've gotta get up on these stairs, I gotta find somebody to get the attention of this crowd. And I saw Rebecca Ungerman out there and I said, "Rebecca." And so I got Rebecca up on the stairs and everyone was milling about, crammed in there and just excited. And so she got the crowd's attention and we just had a little, here's your new home people, let's complete this project. Toby Jenkins: Yep, first time34 �Sue Welch: Yep. Toby Jenkins: - this was ours, it belonged to us. Sue Welch: Yeah, people were so excited. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't leased, wasn't rented, no landlord could take our mortgage away. Sue Welch: Exactly. Toby Jenkins: And we were able to raise our rainbow flag. Sue Welch: Yep, show who we were, know that we'd have signage on the building that it couldn't be taken away because that was a problem with so many of the places, moving so often caused breaks in services, not being able to identify our building, our storefront, where we were leasing, caused difficulty in people's access. And so now, we had a place we could put signage, have our flag, we had a corner in downtown Tulsa, in the heart of Oklahoma. Marcy Smith: And as most neighborhoods go after the gays move in, this area of Tulsa and downtown has exploded with development, exploded. Toby Jenkins: And here you have it, we can verify documentation that the gay folks revitalized downtown Tulsa you now at this point. Marcy Smith: Absolutely. Marcy Smith: This Pearl District, you have- absolutely right. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: 'Cause it was the truth. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Because it was just, mostly downtown was abandoned buildings that were boarded up. Sue Welch: Yep. Toby Jenkins: Nobody lived down here. There weren't any stores or you didn't have people walking their pets, so. Sue Welch: Yeah. 35 �Toby Jenkins: But it's what we could afford and we got it. Tell us about that year we spent working on it, but at the same time, we were operating the centerSue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: - with all of its servicesSue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: - at its old location. Sue Welch: Marcy had a good job that allowed me to spend a lot of time during that time away from my practice. And so every Saturday and Sunday, we would have volunteers. One of my cohorts would help check 'em in and we give assignments. Some people would just be sweeping, some people would be putting up walls. Toby Jenkins: Or ladders. On ladders. Sue Welch: Yeah. Oh, on ladders, painting, cleaning, taking up tile from the floor. You name it. Tiling new bathroom floors, from A to Z. So volunteers full out Saturdays, Sundays, weekend after weekend after weekend to get this accomplished on a shoestring, but properly and still involving people. That was as much part of it as anything. It's one thing to pay for everything to get done and come on in. We created this beautiful jewel box for you. But it's another thing to have people go, I created this. I helped open these doors. I painted this door. That was huge. Toby Jenkins: So tell us about the grand opening, and the Field of Dreams, dinners, andSue Welch: So the Field of Dreams, we did have requirements because we were changing the use from what it was previously to a public space. So we had to create more accessible ramps, elevators, doorways, things like that, and all that added up to quite some expense. So our first official event here was called the Field of Dreams. If we build it, they will come. And so we had volunteers in softball uniforms, and we had teams thatToby Jenkins: Cute gay boys. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Marcy Smith: We had team captains. Sue Welch: Not girls in softball uniforms. Marcy Smith: We had team captains, so it was baseball teams and it was a competition. 36 �Sue Welch: So they were bidding against each other. There was nothing they were gonna win. There were no prizes. There were no auction items. This was full-out cash. They were playing against each other, and we raised all the money, over $130,000 cash, that night without any auction items to do all of the ADA requirements. Marcy Smith: And it was adopting rooms. So these were concept drawings of what the various spaces were gonna be. So if you were a kitchen person, or you were interested in the library, or the art gallery, the theater. That was really great to have those concept drawings, so that people could visualize what this incredible space was gonna look like, based on the town halls, and what they said they wanted in the space. So we were able to give 'em pretty much everything they asked for. The other thing I remember, too, is the size of the building, okay? So we were at 3,500 square feet. This facility is 18,000 square feet. We got so much pushback from, are you kidding me? You're never gonna be able to fill that space. Sue Welch: We don't need that. Marcy Smith: .. We don't need that space. And here we are, nearly 20 years later, and in my opinion, we could add on a few places, but. Toby Jenkins: So any details about the grand opening? I'm trying to remember. Sue Welch: I remember, we did balloons, 'cause at that timeMarcy Smith: We did an non-environmental thing. Sue Welch: - we were not that environmentally conscious. I'm sorry, I apologize. Marcy Smith: We released balloons. Sue Welch: But we did have a bagpiper on the roof, which was really cool. Everyone was just so thrilled, and walking through the place. It was just giddy, giddying us, it was wonderful. Marcy Smith: Smudging, blessing the building. People laying hands on the building. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Good energy. Sue Welch: It was. Toby Jenkins: ... American blessings. 37 �Marcy Smith: Yes, yes. Sue Welch: It was good energy. Toby Jenkins: And then we moved in. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And the programs began. Sue Welch: And the programs began. And yes, if you build it, they will come. It's absolutely true. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Sue Welch: Given the proper leadership, and we had such great leadership then, and people pushing for great programs. Toby Jenkins: And so prior to this, we would have these huge meetings or events. We would have to rent space, or we would have to cram into whatever place we had. I can remember many, many things that we would use in those other spaces. Or when the sodomy laws were struck down, we didn't have a big enough space, so we had to use a restaurant on Cherry Street. But then this building finally had enough space that if we could mobilize and fight for our communitySue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - Celebrate, remember those. I mean, it became a place where people did their funerals, their commitment ceremonies, and where we met for meetings to fight for our rights. Sue Welch: Yeah. Yeah, we could celebrate and mobilize and honor each other in our own home. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember some of the major events that this building was here to witness and testify to? Marcy Smith: Well, legalized same-sex marriage for number one. But also it becoming a hub for pride. So that we could centralize pride activities, which was really pretty cool to be able to do that. Otherwise, we were renting, leasing space to try to do pride events. We're not without negative things happening, and one of the things that wasn't publicized at the time that we did it but we did it for safety was, we put bulletproof glass in this building because we felt that at some point, unfortunately, that may be needed. And so we had a 38 �drive-by shooting in this building and thankfully, the bulletproof glass did its job. So never more thankful to have that particular decision to save people ... – [Bullet-resistant glass was not initially installed. It was added in 2017 after a drive-by shooting from a pellet gun made 13 holes in the front windows and front door. Wes Smith, an OkEq member, challenged the community to send in $13 each to replace the glass. The challenge went viral, people across the country and world sent in money. In total, more than $33,000 was committed which allowed OkEq to replace all downstairs windows and the front door with bullet-resistant glass.] Toby Jenkins: So do you remember when the sodomy laws were struck down, we celebrated at a restaurant, but the next major event was when gays were allowed to be in the military ... . And do you remember the events around that? Sue Welch: So yes, we were able to celebrate that in a fantastic way and we actually created the veterans lobby here, top second floor, off the elevator. And then another pivotal time ... Toby Jenkins: And we ... - just a minute. We invited military recruiters to come to this ... . Sue Welch: That's right, that's right. Toby Jenkins: And they came all the way from where, the Pentagon. Sue Welch: Fantastic, yes. That's right ... . Toby Jenkins: And we became the very first place in the United States where gay people served, signed up to join the military. We were the face of that on the front page of 1900 newspapers the next day in the heartland, in the middle of the country. Sue Welch We were also because of Mary and Sharon and Gay and Sue and were able to celebrate the pivotal gay marriage right here, in the center, with those ladies here in Tulsa. So yeah, so many pivotal things here. Toby Jenkins: Remember when the White House came to visit, when we got behind the Affordable Care Act cause we knew we needed to sign people up so that Obamacare, and they sent a representative here 'cause we had signed up 147 people in one day. Sue Welch: It's fantastic. It's fantastic, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So Sue, you called it the field of dreams. Why did you call it the field of dreams? Sue Welch: Because if we build it, they will come. 39 �Toby Jenkins: And did they come? Sue Welch: They did, and actually even more, in more numbers than I dreamed. I mean the programming and Toby, I know you're greatly responsible for a lot of that programming that started happening. And the people upon people, upon people who came and had fun or had a service or were recognized and seen or just got to be able to be with their family, their LGBTQ+ family, just people fill this place the whole entire time, all the time. I know I would get update calls from you saying how many people had come and what pivotal help had been given to certain people that day. Just incredible. Marcy Smith: Well, saving lives. Sue Welch: Absolutely, saving lives. Marcy Smith: People who were at the end of their rope. I mean, just needing a place to come where they can literally walk in the door. Sue Welch: ... you're safe. Marcy Smith: Yes, this is a safe place. Sue Welch: A safe affirming place. Toby Jenkins: So you spent a lot of work for the community to make this happen, and on behalf of the community, the LGBTQ+ community, I wanna say thank you so much for that. Any regrets about it? Sue Welch: None. Marcy Smith: None. Sue Welch: None. And I have to say there were so many hundreds of people behind us who really made it happen, who made it a success. We were just able to drive some of it. Toby Jenkins: So this is a- in 2026 and you ladies are moving into your middle age years. Marcy Smith: Thank you for that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: There were some difficult times, 'cause just because we had the building doesn't mean- I mean, we've had some vandalism, we've had physical threats, we've had some deaths, some heartaches, and we've had some other challenges too. You just didn't 40 �hang up your hats and say, we're done helping the community or being involved. What have you had to do in the last few years? Sue Welch: So things were rocking along really great for a while. We got some breathing time and just having fun with friends and things. But there were some individuals, boards, leaderships, that didn't go through what all of us went through. They didn't go through the turmoil and the trial and the difficulties that all of us went through. They're a younger generation, they grew up being able to be married, they grew up with less offense to them, they grew up being able to put their partner's picture on their office desk. Just so different from us. When some younger leadership, I think I'll just categorize it that way, came in, I don't think it was- they had less ownership. So, COVID came and that changed everything for everybody. But generationally, I think we're significantly different in that. We like to gather physically together and COVID made that really difficult. So coming out of that, changes started happening. We noticed we weren't getting notices about things happening at the center, even post-COVID. It seemed there was less going on. People weren't gathering at the center. We didn't reactivate those activities and events and things for people to physically gather. As the world did, we all became a little more siloed. So I think we lost a lot of interest, funding, relativity during that time. In February of 2024, we got a notice saying that the organization needed to raise $100,000 to keep the doors open. We were in shock. And so we met up with some people and said, "What's going on here? What's happening?" And so Marcy and I, thanks to some people, we were asked to be on the gala committee that year. We were generously given the leeway to co-chair the gala. And fortunately, we kinda did our thing. We've done a lot of galas. Well, by the gala committee, we were generously offered to co-chair the gala. We had leadership difficulty. I was coming in, again, as old lesbians going, "What do you know?" I mean, that was an old time. You can't do anything for us. And we had a hard time not going ... listen to whippersnappers. This is how it was. So ultimately, that gala was the highest grossing and highest net gala in OkEq’s history. And we were able to really build up our coffers again, and keep us open and keep the center going and alive. Marcy Smith: In 90 days. Sue Welch: Yeah, in a very short time. Marcy Smith: There was no one chairing this. It was not gonna happen. 41 �Sue Welch: Yeah, there was not gonna be a gala. We even had foundations tell us, "You should not be having a gala right now." And we said, "For two reasons. We have to have a gala. We must have a gala. One, of course, for the fundraising. And, we know we can do this. Two, for the community. Because our community has scattered to the winds. And we need to bring them back together." Toby Jenkins: So we talked about the pandemic, and we talked about the financial challenges the organizations have, and we've talked about generational differences, andbut we also have political issues that are impacting our community. It's 2026, so as your sign-off message, I've asked you to think about this. Do you have a challenge, or a message, or a final words that you'd like to give to people who might see this, and either feel the motivation to get involved, or maybe even have an explanation of how important it is? Do you have any final words for our viewers? Sue Welch: You go first. Marcy Smith: I would say that don't discount having a place, a physical place. I have an IT background and we're in a virtual world at this point, but there is so much in life, especially in a human experience, virtual stuff cannot give you and provide you that connection that you have to have by just being in the same space with people who support you, and that you can provide fine services. The whole point of this Center was for it to be a resource center for people. We didn't think that we were gonna be all things to all people, but we wanted to have a hub, a place where the organization could also work with other organizations to provide services to people, and to have a gathering place for us, and we're seeing this. We are seeing this in the world now. We are seeing psychological studies coming out about how this isolationism, and being at home, and this whole virtual reality, if you will, it's not. It's not real. What is real is being with people, engaging with people, celebrating with people, having really hard times with people. It's a human experience. It cannot be replaced with technology. That's my background, and I know that. And so it's about having a home and a place to come back to. And supporting an organization that's going to help our community be a better place. Not just the LGBTQ+ community, but other members in this community we call home, we call Tulsa, reaching out to other organizations to help in that effort, because it's a tough time, and funding is getting ripped out from non-profits. They are literally facing their demise. National public Radio… all of these things that we held to be, assumed that it was always gonna be here, always thought we would have public funding for the arts, really. 42 �Always thought we would have freedom of speech, thought we would have freedom of the press. The press is what is gonna hold our elected officials accountable, in addition to us. So we are at a really, really tough time, and it has been set on fire because of technology. Because we are not gathering together. Because we're holed up in our respective places, and we've got to come together again. We've got to support each other again in a physical way, in addition to a technological way. And having a home that is a place where we can gather, where we can rally, where we can figure out strategies to do this, is really important because if the decision is ever made to lose this space, then we become invisible again. They, whoever they are succeeded. They don't have a place to call home anymore. They don't have a place to gather anymore. They don't have a place to rally. They don't have a place to celebrate our artists. They don't have a place for our performers to come. They don't have a place to have counseling. Transgendered individuals don't have a place to have health care. We don't have a- we're burning books, and we're banning books. We don't have a library anymore to celebrate that aspect. All of these things are here for anyone who wants to come in and celebrate LGBTQIA+ individuals as a community, but as a community, as an accepting and affirming community that we call home. And that's Tulsa. It's so much more than a physical building, and that's where I would say, generationally moving forward, I hope that you all can understand how important the space is to maintain. Can we change the space? Absolutely. Can we change up the different things that are here? Absolutely. That's what a home's all about. It evolves and it changes as we need it to change. But I am hopeful and lay this on the table for folks coming behind us, please keep it. Please figure out how to keep it. Make it your own, make it evolve and change as our needs change. But allowing it to go away, I think, will be a grave mistake for our community. And I'm not saying that it is. I'm not saying that it is. But I think there are individuals out there that feel that we don't need a space to call our own, where we can celebrate each other, a physical space. And home is a really big word, encompasses a lot of things. Sue Welch: I really couldn't say any better than that, but just to say that, when you lose something that so many people have identified with, you lose your identity. When you don't communicate to every group, not just the current generation, but every group, about what's here for them. When you don't have physical group meetings, people physically gathering in large groups, that sounds scary to some people now, just because of COVID, but we have to have face-to-face large groups to support each other. 43 �The harder it gets politically, financially, the more we need to physically gather and we have our home to do it in. So let's not lose that, let's not take it for granted, let's use it. Toby Jenkins: This is perfect. So while you're the CP's ambassadors, called them the Iron Lady, Madam Prime Minister, was my nicknames for them. What are you presently doing? I mean what do you- your careers and the work that you do now? Sue Welch: Well, we are entrepreneurial. We own a business together called OsteoStrong, which is a wellness center that focuses on increasing your bone density, your muscular strength and your ligament and tendon strength. That's healthy for everybody. We have over 300 members. We're loving it and we do have some of our community members who are also OsteoStrong members and we do love that. We garden, we travel, we've loved that forever. I serve as a trustee again on the Board of Trustees for Oklahomans For Equality. Toby Jenkins: In your medical practice there, you're focusing a lot on issues with the emerging, growing older adult population, so that you're still serving a community, every aspect of it. Sue Welch: Sure, sure. Toby Jenkins: Anything else for us and our founder. Do you have any other things or archivist any things, before we bring our interview to a close? Sue Welch: I just wanna say thank you to all of you for all the work you're doing and have done, because we could not have done anything, any of this without you. Amanda Thompson: Yeah, no, it's great. And thank you guys for sharing this. And as the one youngster in the room, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you're saying and the stuff you talk about is really important. I'm personally very lucky and very happy to be a part of furthering those connections and helping people just get the word out, how important these things are. Sue Welch: Thank you, Amanda. Marcy Smith: We have to pay it forward. Amanda Thompson: Yeah. Marcy Smith: We do. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, thank you so much. You have been listening toMarcy Smith: Marcy Smith. 44 �Sue Welch: Sue Welch. Toby Jenkins: - here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on January the 16th, 2026. Addendum: Sue Welch requested the following be added to the transcript. "My Dad, Lloyd Welch was a 3rd generation brick mason and builder. He helped with the initial renovation when we bought the building for the Dennis R Neill Equality Center. He taught volunteers and various friends many skills that we needed during that time to get the building ready. He taught and worked with Stan Smalts, Dale Tune and Marty Steinmetz, replacing and hanging exterior doors; David Hoot patching interior plaster walls; Norm Kopp tuck pointing worn brick exterior wall joints of the building, as well as many other tasks with other volunteers. He had a great time with the guys and they with him. They all really appreciated learning from him. Some of them even took the skills they learned from our volunteer efforts into their own lives later as well. My Mom, Joan Welch provided moral encouragement and cheerleading support during that time filled with physical work. We would all break for lunch in the garage, now the Lynn Riggs Theatre. Nancy McDonald, everyone's Mom, brought cookies for snacks every weekend for the volunteer crew. It was a fantastic time of camaraderie, hard work and joy!" 45 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Interview Description An account of the resource Sue Welch and Marcy Smith share their personal journeys, highlighting their experiences growing up in Oklahoma and navigating their identities as members of the LGBTQ+ community. Marcy recounts her childhood in Tulsa, her education at Oklahoma Christian College, and her early awareness of her sexual orientation. She reflects on the challenges faced by LGBTQ+ individuals in a conservative environment, including the need for stealth and the importance of finding community. Sue shares her upbringing in Ponca City and her academic journey at OSU. Both women discuss their relationships, the evolution of their identities, and the significance of community support in their lives.<br /><br />Marcy and Sue recount their involvement with Oklahomans for Equality and the development of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. They reflect on the challenges of coming out to their families, the societal pressures they faced, and the importance of creating a safe space for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. Their stories are filled with humor, resilience, and a sense of belonging, showcasing the power of love and community in overcoming adversity. In this episode, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their inspiring journey of establishing a community center for the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They successfully organized fundraising events, such as house parties and the Wild Hearts Ball, to raise awareness and funds. Their determination led to significant milestones, including securing a $10,000 grant from a New York foundation and eventually purchasing a permanent space for their community center, which became a hub for support, celebration, and activism.<br /><br />The conversation highlights the importance of physical spaces for community gathering, especially in a time when virtual connections are prevalent. Marcy and Sue emphasize the need for ongoing support and engagement within the community, particularly in light of recent political challenges. They reflect on the center's role in pivotal moments for LGBTQ+ rights, including the legalization of same-sex marriage and the repeal of discriminatory laws. Their message is clear: maintaining a physical home for the community is essential for fostering connection, support, and resilience against adversity. Subject The topic of the resource Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Oral History Interview from January 16, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sue Welch, Marcy Smith, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 16, 2026 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Equality Center Opening Gay marriage HIV HIV/AIDs interview LGBT marriage Marcy Smith OHR OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Christian College Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU Pyramid Project same sex marriage Sue Welch Toby Jenkins TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Wild Hearts Ball https://history.okeq.org/files/original/435bd10a9a8e0b5ef931d948f297090a.mp4 4ef6716f63d546c816ab61a5f578616b https://history.okeq.org/files/original/fae96376eec4ca3c281596cf3b6bbca3.pdf b089230dcee36302c98fe3837d5c5760 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Greg Gatewood Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill Date: January 15, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio AI, February 4, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Greg Gatewood Summary In this engaging conversation, Greg Gatewood shares his life story, beginning with his upbringing in rural Wyandotte, Oklahoma. He reflects on his childhood experiences, including his education at Oklahoma State University, where he pursued architecture. Greg discusses the close-knit community of his small school, his involvement in sports, and his early interests in agriculture through the Future Farmers of America (FFA). He also touches on his family dynamics, highlighting the influence of his parents and siblings on his formative years. As the conversation progresses, Greg opens up about his journey of self-discovery regarding his sexual orientation, coming out as a gay man during his time at OSU in the mid-1980s. He recounts the challenges he faced growing up in a religious family and the societal pressures of the time. Greg's narrative shifts to his involvement in the LGBTQ community in Tulsa, detailing his volunteer work at the Tulsa Gay Community Center and his role in organizing Pride events. His reflections provide insight into the evolution of LGBTQ rights and visibility in Oklahoma, showcasing both personal and communal growth over the years. In this episode, the speakers reflect on their experiences and pivotal moments in the LGBTQ+ community, particularly focusing on the establishment and evolution of the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, and Community Center. They recount a poignant story from November 2000, when a man drove all night to seek refuge and support at the center after coming out to his wife. This encounter highlights the center's role as a safe haven and resource for individuals in crisis. The conversation also 2 �delves into the personal connections formed within the community, including the speakers' own relationship and their involvement in various initiatives, such as the Pyramid Project and Pride events, which aimed to foster inclusivity and support for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. As the discussion progresses, the speakers share their memories of significant events, including the impact of Matthew Shepard's death on the community and the importance of activism in raising awareness. They reflect on their roles in organizing Pride events and the challenges faced in advocating for LGBTQ+ rights. The episode concludes with a sense of nostalgia and gratitude for the friendships and connections made through their work, emphasizing the ongoing journey toward equality and acceptance. Keywords Greg Gatewood, LGBTQ history, Oklahoma State University, coming out, Pride events, Tulsa Gay Community Center, rural upbringing, architecture, family dynamics, gay rights, LGBTQ+, Tulsa Community Center, Pride events, Matthew Shepard, LGBTQ+ activism, community support, coming out stories, LGBTQ+ history, safe spaces, personal connections Takeaways • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • "I grew up on a farm, small farm." "I was in FFA, Future Farmers of America." "I came out at OSU in 1986." "Growing up religious, there was a lot of guilt." "We wanted to be more visible." "I was volunteer of the year in 97." "We had a very active movie night where we'd show the movies." "I had every intention of going back to Houston when I graduated." "I was in charge of the festival for the 99 Pride." "We chose Boulder Park and moved the date, made it more visible." 'I didn't know where to go. I didn't know what to do.' 'It's just, I don't know what I would have done.' 'Naming is a very big thing.' 'We probably had 300 people there.' 'She was the mother of a lot of gay guys here in Tulsa.' 'That was probably during the Pride of 2007.' 3 �• • • • 'We went to every bar on Friday and Saturday night.' 'I could write some, I could write good too.' 'That really did help that event.' 'It's hard to believe it's been 30 years.' Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 01:33 Growing Up in Wyandotte, Oklahoma 07:41 College Life at Oklahoma State University 10:41 Coming Out and LGBTQ Identity 23:41 Faith and Family Dynamics 35:34 Building the Honors College and Early Career 36:48 Involvement with TOHR and Early Pride Events 39:39 Challenges and Triumphs of Organizing Pride 41:29 The First Pride Parade: A Pivotal Moment 50:53 The Sign Controversy and Community Response 53:10 Finding a New Home for the Community Center 59:23 Personal Connections: Meeting Carrie and Building Community 01:12:45 Transitioning Leadership and Expanding Pride 01:19:20 Memorable Moments and Community Impact 01:34:02 Reflections on Activism and Legacy __________________________________________________________________________________ 4 �Dennis Neill: I'm Dennis Neill and we're at the Equality Center in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library. It is January the 15th, 2026 and I have the pleasure of interviewing Greg Gatewood. So Greg, would you please state your name and your age and the place you were born? Greg Gatewood: Hi, I'm Greg Gatewood, the age of 60 as of last year, and I was born in Neosho, Missouri. I grew up in rural Oklahoma, Wyandotte, Oklahoma. Dennis Neill: And can you tell us a little bit about your experience growing up in Wyandotte, including your education? Greg Gatewood: Well, I said I grew up in rural Oklahoma, so I grew up on a farm, a small farm. My grandparents had a large farm, a big dairy farm, and they lived next to my other set of grandparents, so I had a lot of land to roam. So I grew up in the country, went to graduate from Wyandotte High School a few years ago in 1983, and then went to Oklahoma State University. Dennis Neill: And what did you major in at Oklahoma State? Greg Gatewood: In architecture. Dennis Neill: And how many years were you at Oklahoma State? Greg Gatewood: The program was five years, the architecture program. I was there six. I took a break because they changed some rules in mid-school year, and getting to professional school was a big decision. Dennis Neill: So talking a little bit more about your early years, what was your involvement with your family, the farm, and then tell us a little bit about the peers that you were growing up with in Wyandotte, what you found pleasurable and some of the unpleasurable experiences as a youth in Wyandotte? Greg Gatewood: Well, I had a good childhood, I mean, overall, I mean, like I said, I grew up in the country, but went to a small school, so we had, in small school Oklahoma, with 50, I think I graduated with 56 people, so you knew everybody, you knew what everyone did, you knew what everyone did last night, you even knew what everyone was going to do tomorrow, because you knew. Always. But growing up, it was, overall, it was good, I played football, I was in FFA, I was always active and, well, I didn't play baseball because we didn't have baseball in Wyandotte. 5 �We had basketball and football in sports, so I played football, basketball one year. I was not coordinated enough to run and shoot at the same time, so I did play football and track one year. That wasn't a good thing for me, but it was FFA, I was very big in FFA, Future Farmers of America, I was in the forestry team, which is, you judge trees. I can tell you, I can look at a tree, I used to be able to look at a tree and tell you the name, the botanical name, could it make pulpwood, could it make saw logs, and was pretty good at it. But I didn't choose that path to be a forester, because you're outside a lot in the winter, so instead I focused on architecture. But always growing up, I was kind of the artistic child. I had an older sibling, he's my late brother, he is like a small version of my father, he's very much similar to my father. My sister is kind of a mix of the two families, I take after my mother's side of the family, so I'm the middle child, I'll just say that, I'm the middle child. But yeah, my siblings, we grew up on a dirt road out in the country, half a mile from the highway, so we rode bikes back and forth on dirt road, horrible, horrible wrecks on that dirt road, I remember once, and more than once, and on lots of hills, we grew up in a very hilly area, so we'd push my sister down on the hood of a car as a sled, for her to test out the chump on that big hill, we still talk about that today. Dennis Neill: Are you still close to your sister? Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: Where does she live? Greg Gatewood: She was in, now she lives in Wyandotte, Oklahoma. She moved back to Wyandotte. Dennis Neill: Now, geographically, place Wyandotte for us? Greg Gatewood: It is near Miami, Oklahoma, in Ottawa County, in an extreme northeast section of Oklahoma, or extreme northeast county. Dennis Neill: So did you ever show farm animals? Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah, well no, no I did not. Although my grandfather was a dairy farmer and my other grandfather was a beef farmer. And I was in FFA, and I knew, I certainly fed the cows and fed the hogs and knew I would do all that. My projects in FFA were trees, because that was just what my brother had gotten into and was very good at. So, and I kind of followed that up. Dennis Neill: And can you tell us a little bit about your parents, what their profession was? 6 �Greg Gatewood: Well, my mom and dad met when my parents, when my dad's parents moved into the big dairy farm next door to my mom's parents. That's how they met. And they moved there in 60, 1960. They got married in 1961. Nine months later, almost to the day, my brother was born. It was a quick honeymoon, it was a productive honeymoon to the day, to the day. I forgot what I was gonna talk about. Dennis Neill: Oh, your professions of your parents. Greg Gatewood: Oh, yeah, but dad was a machinist. He worked at BF Goodrich in Miami, Oklahoma for years until it shut down in 86. Then he moved and worked in Springfield and finished up his career in Tamco, which is in Joplin, Missouri, as a machinist. Mom, she graduated from NEO A&M in Miami and was born in Tonkawa, Oklahoma. He grew up to be a son of seven siblings. He's the middle son, too. But then I grew up on a dairy farm, obviously. My mom grew up in rural Oklahoma as well. She met my dad when they moved in next door. Greg Gatewood: She's been a homemaker, she's been, for the majority of her life, she was secretary at Wyandotte Public Schools, elementary school, and at that time in the 70s, you weren't just secretary, you were like the secretary, the nurse, the counselor, because it's a small school, they didn't have a nurse, so if a child got hurt, the secretary took care of that. So she was kinda all that, retired from that. Dennis Neill: I'm sorry, what year did you start at OSU? I started at OSU in 1984. Dennis Neill: Okay, and tell us a little bit about your time at OSU, where you lived, were you part of a fraternity, other social organizations, and your overall experience while you were at Oklahoma State. Greg Gatewood: Well, I started at OSU, at Oklahoma State University for folks in, like I said, 1984, I went to, I'd had a year, first went to NEO A&M in Miami, I had a scholarship there. So I was just 15 miles from the house, but then I went, I enrolled there, and they said, well, there's no, you need to get down to Stillwater. So I went on down there just after one year at NEO. And going there, I lived in Bennett Hall, lived in, because I was choosing a more economical path, I went into an un-airconditioned dorm. It was one of the largest dorms when it was built, largest dorm in the US. It was over five miles of hallways, it's a big dorm. And it was a dorm then, it was a dorm. But great times, OSU was really good. The dorm life there, other than Bennett Hall, for two years, had a great time. Turned out, turns out that seven of the guys on that floor, on my floor alone, are now out gay men, in Tulsa. Dennis Neill: Oh, wow. 7 �Greg Gatewood: Yeah, there's quite a few of us on my floor. But, of course, I majored in architecture. That meant you spent most of your time in architecture studio, in the architecture building. In fact, if you didn't spend enough time according to the professors, they would happily fill out the drop slip for you and leave it on your desk, and when you found it, you were expected to drop. So, we spent four hours in studio every day. And that's class time, and then you're expected to spend probably four to five more hours every day in studio. Dennis Neill: Were you in the old armory? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, the old armory. Yeah, yeah. Now it's been really built, they've added two big additions on now that we just had a simple, seemed like an unheated studio to do our work in. Dennis Neill: You mentioned your floor mates. Are you still in touch with any of them that have moved to Tulsa? Greg Gatewood: Not really, well, there's a few. Well, there's, on my floor, there was Brad Mulholland, Tim Brown, Michael Smith, Randy Jones, Michael and Tim were roommates down at the end of the hall. And then Brad was in the center, Randy was in the center, and then there was a couple of them in, the Rotsi guy, I can't remember his name. But, they're all living in Tulsa. We're not close, but I know who they are. Keep in touch with them and stuff. Dennis Neill: So how do you identify as far as your orientation? Greg Gatewod: Oh, as gay, as a gay man, which, speaking of Oklahoma State, I go to college, I was gonna talk about that. I keep in contact more, that's when I went out. I came out at OSU in the, probably in 86, I think, so I would be 21, you know. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, that was 1986. Dennis Neill: So prior to that, what kind of led up to you deciding that it was time to come out? Talk a little bit about your feelings and how it developed over time until that point in 1986. Greg Gatewood: Well, that can bring up all kinds of things there. I grew up in a very religious family. Dennis Neill: What faith? 8 �Greg Gatewood: Methodist, Methodist. In fact, the Methodist church that I grew up in is now no longer Methodist because of the gay issue. They left the Methodist denomination a couple years ago, which my brother and my father and my mother and my sister of all, my family, all voted to leave Methodist church after I'd been out for, you know, I don't know, 30 years. So, but anyway, that's another subject. But yeah, so growing up religious is, there was, because I figured, I realized I was gay or was attracted to guys, probably in eighth grade, if I remember correctly, Gino Fleener. Not that I remember the name. but yeah, I remember that. But that's for, so growing up, I was, I never really had any girlfriends. I knew if I needed a date to the prom, I could date. But I didn't really have any girlfriends at all, growing up or ever. So I think I may have been called Gay Gator. Gator was my name, nickname growing up. Greg Gatewood: My brother was called Gator. My uncle was called Gator. It was just a tradition that the Gatewood boys were called Gator. My sister was called Little Gator. But anyway, so at one point I remember I was called Gay Gator. And this was in, I was in junior high, so in the 70s, yeah. But I also had, I came from a good family in that county. I came from the Gatewood family, which in the rural Oklahoma, it matters why your last name is. But the Gatewoods…and you could, you had the right name, the right last name. Greg Gatewood: Because my family were big farmers, everybody knew the Gatewoods in that county. So I was, I could, I played football. That was good, I was in FFA. I didn't, I didn't have any girlfriends. I was pretty sure I was gay. I can't remember if I really had a word. You had thoughts. But no actions. I didn't really have a problem, I didn't think of it growing up, I guess. I mean, I thought of it, I definitely thought of it, but then you'd have severe guilt. And then, and then I went to college at OSU. So when you went to, you went to university, you know, you're out and alone. You're out on yourself, by yourself for the first time. I was in a dorm room for the first time, or living on my own for the first time. Well, I remember this is, in a dorm room, just bored, or not bored, but I had, the first two weeks, I didn't have a roommate there, my first year there, but then I got one. Then I got a roommate, and he was good at architecture too, which is good, and I thought that was good. And it turned out that we were in the same class, one of the architecture 2,003 in class, and I was reading his notes, and then at the end of that notebook was a pretty descriptive story of earlier that afternoon in our dorm room, and it turned out he was a closet gay guy. And I learned a lot, or not learned a lot, but I recognized that from his story in this classroom notebook and he moved out very shortly after. After that he was moved to a different dorm. 9 �But, like I said, there's a lot of I don't know. It was in at OSU, my first semester. I would say there that I met some guys and became friends with them, became friends. I have some really good friends. They're still my best friends. They're from college. Dennis Neill: How about, while you were at OSU, were you involved in? Was there like an LGBTQ group there? Greg Gatewood: Well, there's, I have a lot of friends. It was in the 80s and it's still our Oklahoma. There was a group now. Well, like I said, I came out, there was there's. Was it Boomer Lake? I don't know why Stillwater has a lake called Boomer Lake, but there's Boomer Lake and there's shelter number six and that's where all those gay guys that were out and some that weren't- that's a lot that weren't. We'd just hang out. Greg Gatewood: So we'd go and hang out to shelter number six and just hang out and there'd be- there could be- 20-30 guys under 21 because we were too young to go to bars. Then this is so we'd just be hanging out there and just you know, just your college guys, for the love of God. And that's when there was Richard Gordon, who is a still friend of mine, who's in Dallas now. He was president of students for Homosexual Awareness, which was a gay group in Stillwater's student group with not, admittedly, not the best name in the world- students for Homosexual Awareness- but he would go around to psych classes and human sexuality classes and this is in the mid 80s, 85,, 86, and talk about being gay and and was proud. I mean he was very out, he was very out. He grew up here in Tulsa. I was, I was out from, well, definitely my sophomore year I was pretty much out, but not necessarily to my family, but everybody in Stillwater. I didn't come out necessarily and tell people, but just your friends, there was in the student union in the food court. We had a and there may have been some hollering students and stuff. You could. You could pretty much tell yeah, that's a gay table, it's a table of gay guys because they tend to holler at other guys. We didn't care, we really didn't care if they knew, but yeah, so Richard was the president, student for homosexual awareness and a brave, brave individual, very brave. Dennis Neill: So was it a recognized student…? Greg Gatewood: I don't know if it was a recognized student group Dennis Neill: But like, did you all have regular meetings? There were none students … we would have a meeting, I think at a speaker perhaps. So it may have been a recognized. It probably was a recognized group. Dennis Neill: So where did you meet? 10 �Greg Gatewood: Usually in a classroom. There was a classroom building and there would be in one of those classrooms usually. So I only went to a couple of meetings. Dennis Neill: You talked about the table where you all would gather. Were you ever really harassed while you were on campus about being gay or any of these members that were associated? Do you think it was a welcoming environment or just kind of a…? Greg Gatewood: Well, I think people knew because they're not stupid and you could tell. I mean Randy Jones and Eric- I can't remember his last name- they would go, they both knew French, so they were talking in French with an Arkansas twang. It was odd and there would be some gay innuendos in those things, in those things they would say so we just had a good time. But there was some speaking for myself, I'm sure there was. I'm just I'm sure there was, but speaking for myself, I didn't. I've never had too much of anti-gay backlash directly at me because one I'm 6'1 and I just, I've never had that as much as some guys have. Except when I fully came out, it was third year, I think, in architecture, and you're divided into classes, and you're different years. And Richard came up to me, he came to the studio one night, and he, of course, everyone knew Richard Gordon because he went around to classes and spoke. And he was like, a bunch of us are going to Bobo's. Bobo's is a Mexican restaurant in Stillwater at that point. We're going to Bobo's to have margaritas, you wanna go? It's like 11 o'clock at night at the studio. So I was like, sure, I'll go. So I dropped everything, go, we start going down the hallway, or get down the first floor, I come back up, because I'd forgotten my keys. The entire class, 40 people, or about 40 people, were sitting around, had gathered around someone's desk, it was close to mine, they had gathered around that desk, and were talking. I could tell, I could hear it, because this was probably a couple of minutes after I'd left, came back up there because I'd forgotten my keys and couldn't go. They were all talking about me because they'd seen that Richard Gordon, who was a known gay guy, came and got me, and we were going out to drinks. So that was a topic of discussion, that was, I think, my third year. But I didn't get any blowback and flak about that. I mean, I'm sure there were closeted gay guys in that class at that point. I would lay money on it. Dennis Neill: Do you know, did the Students for Homosexual Awareness had a faculty advisor? Greg Gatewood: I don't, I don't believe so, off the top of my head, but I'm not for sure. There was, my last year in architecture at OSU, there was a gay professor who was closeted, semi-closeted, but semi-out. And then, now I think about the first, one of the first 11 �openly gay guys that I saw at OSU was because I saw his TOHR sticker on his banner in the studio, and that was, if I can remember his name, Roger Barton. Dennis Neill: What did he, he was a professor? Greg Gatewood: No, he was a student. He was an architecture student. He was a little older guy, but he had a TOHR sticker on his area, in your desk when you worked, in your studio. Dennis Neill: He must have been from Tulsa. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, he was from Tulsa, and I think at that time it was TOHR. Dennis Neill: I wonder if he's still around? Greg Gatewood: I don't know, I don't know, because I hadn't thought of his name until just now. But that was in, yeah, 84, 84, spring of 84, spring of 85, and it was clear, he was out. He would bring his partner up to the studio. He didn't care. Dennis Neill: So, to reflect back a little bit on, you mentioned the Methodist church that you grew up on, very conservative. So, walk us through a little bit about your experience with religion and faith, both your own and then with your family, and then as you've progressed through life, what is your feeling about being out in your faith community, and has it been an issue within the circle of your family and friends? Greg Gatewood: Well, growing up in Oklahoma, Oklahoma's, you know, lots of people, or faith is a major thing in a lot of people's lives, and faith is an obstacle, maybe an obstacle in a lot of people's lives. Like I said, I grew up Methodist, but the church was affiliated Methodist. Growing up, we had an Assembly of God preacher. So, it was more of a, Assembly of God slant, I guess, because, you know, there was speaking in tongues. That, and it was a country, very much a country church. Of course, growing up, I kind of figured, like I said, when I, probably eighth grade, I remember thinking, you know, I'm different. I'm attracted to guys. And you didn't hear much about the, and I don't recall hearing much about that in church growing up, as far as, if I did, it was gonna be bad, I can almost guarantee that. But only in recent years. So I came out in the 80s. I came out to my family in the early 90s completely. Fully. A couple years after graduation from OSU. I stopped going to the church I grew up in when Monte Sundy, the preacher, went on a rant of anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-Muslim, so much other stuff. I was like, I'm never going to go there. And I haven’ stepped foot in that church again except for… 12 �Dennis Neill: And how old were you then? Greg Gatewood: Probably in my 40s. It's been over a decade. I've gone back for a funeral. But that's the only reason. Dennis Neill: And this is your home church? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, the home church. It was Sycamore Chapel, United Methodist Church. Little country church. But my grandfather, the big, dirty farmer, gave acreage so he could build the park and stuff. Or the fellowship hall and stuff. Although he went to a different church. Growing up with a strong religious background, and then coming to realize that you're attracted to guys. And then the guilt. And if you would, just by thinking about stuff, the guilt. I graduated high school in 83. I was going to church. I was in high school in the 80s, almost 70s. High school in the 80s. And also in the 80s, AIDS hit big time. It was in the news a lot. So that was another whole other factor on that. I remember things being told, in my family, at family gatherings about AIDS killing all the right people. After I came out, I heard, you'll just get AIDS and die from family members. And there's a lot of religious aspects of that. When the first time I came out, or the first time that Kerry came with me to some family wedding, I think my brother and my cousin talked to me. And I probably had 25 people there, those family members. They just refused to talk to me. Still to this day. But it's gotten better over 26 years. Dennis Neill: So are your parents still alive? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, both of them are, yes. Both are in their mid-80s. Dennis Neill: And have they accepted where you are? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, it's gotten better, it's gotten better. I mean, like I said, Sycamore Chapel United Methodist Church is now Sycamore Chapel Church because they left the Methodist Church because, as I pointed out, they hate gay people. I kind of told them that. Because I left the Methodist Church. I was required to send a letter. And I was kind of blunt in that letter. But yeah, when the church I grew up in, and I'm not, at this point in my life, no, I'm not religious at all. I mean, point blank. Dennis Neill: So take us, you graduated what year from OSU? Greg Gatewood: 1990. Dennis Neill: Okay, and then take us through the next few years. How have you developed? 13 �Greg Gatewood: Well, in the summer of 89, I lived in Houston. I had every intention of going back to Houston when I graduated, every intention. Dennis Neill: Were you interning down there? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I interned that summer down there. My uncle had an architectural engineering firm, and he got me a job, basically, at an architecture firm. So I worked for them for a summer. I had an apartment there for a summer. I had every intention, one, desire to go back because I had a lot of fun in Houston that summer. And I implored him to go back, but that didn't work out. It wasn't just, architecture wasn't hiring, necessarily. It wasn't really good in 1990. So I ended up in Tulsa. I moved, I graduated on May 4th and started my job on June 4th. So that's how much time I've given myself a month to get a job. So I started there, moved here, had a, was dating someone at that point that lived in Tulsa. That didn't last very long. It seems like when I first moved to Tulsa, I would move apartments about every year. I moved to a lot of apartments. I lived downtown. Before downtown was popular, I was downtown at 8th and Cincinnati, way before anyone was. That building's no longer here. They tore it down after we remodeled the building. Mark Henry's parents, or dad, owned it. He owned it, and we remodeled that building, he tore it down. Dennis Neill: I remember that building, because he lived there for a while. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, he lived there, he lived right down below. Yeah, we filled it up with an architecture student friend of mine, a young girl, and then an older lady lived on the third floor, too, and four gay guys. And then they announced they were gonna close the building down, and we all moved out. After I'd recruited Michelle, my college classmate, to move down there. We should've moved down there in less than two months, and we all moved, because they were gonna tear the building down. Anyway, I digress. But yeah, I moved to Tulsa in 1990. I was out at that point, I was an out gay man. But I'd go to bars and stuff like that. And then, I remember the first time I went, and I don't know if I've told you this before, I maybe have, Tulsa was getting ready to do a, what's it, discrimination ordinance in the city of Tulsa, maybe, at some level, for the city of Tulsa. And it was in the news, and there were meetings. And I went, I think it was at the library or the civic center, it was you and Nancy McDonald and some other people on the stage. And there was a large group of people, and lots of screaming and yelling. Dennis Neill: Worst time of my life. 14 �Greg Gatewood: Yelling, screaming, gnashing of teeth. There was, I'll never forget that meeting. Dennis Neill: I won't either. Greg Gatewood: And that was in 93, 94? Dennis Neill: 1994. Greg Gatewood: And yeah, I remember that. And that was when I was like, huh. So I started volunteering in, I think it was 96. Dennis Neill: And where were we located then? Greg Gatewood: TOHR offices were at 41st and Harvard. Yeah, they were at 41st and Harvard in the pink, no they're not pink. Yeah. Dennis Neill: So you came aboard right about as they were … Greg Gatewood: Right before they moved to the first Pride Center. Dennis Neill: So were you involved in the move to…? Greg Gatewood: I, well, like I said, I first volunteered at that little office, and then they moved the center. I kind of lost track of, I think. I was, I had a other boyfriend at that point. We donated money, I think, for the new center. But I didn't go, but then I started volunteering. It opened in 96, didn't it? Yeah, the first center opened in 96. And I think I started volunteering there in 97. Dennis Neill: When you were on 41st and Harvard, was that to work the hotline? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, the little hotline. And they had a community room too, I think, maybe. They had meetings. But it was a little hotline, little small little room. And I remember there was, I think there was a dry erase board with numbers written on it, maybe. And there was sheets, maybe, you know. Dennis Neill: And were we still just doing the hotline in the evenings? Greg Gatewood: Hotline in the evenings, yeah, six to nine, I think. Or six to 10, maybe. Dennis Neill: We would respond to any messages, right, that were left on the answering machine, and all that, that's interesting. So when you came here and you got involved with this architectural firm, are there some projects that are notable that you were involved with? In architecture? 15 �Greg Gatewood: Oh my, that I want to lay claim to? Dennis Neill: Were you kind of residential, commercial, or? Greg Gatewood: My architecture firm, the architecture firms that I worked for, or the main one I worked for a long time, or the one that I worked for nine years, focused more on commercial. So if there's a St. Louis building, or now Panera Bread, a Panera Bread in Tulsa, or a Homeland that's now closed, or Reasers, I probably worked on it at some point, because we did Reasers and Homelands, and Panera Breads, and lots of apartment complexes. If you see a red case, cube. Dennis Neill: Oh yeah, Case Property. Greg Gatewood: We did a lot of Case Property stuff, so little fences and fence sets. This is in the early 90s. Not a lot of buildings were being built, by any means, but little fences and fence sets around apartment buildings. Remodels of apartment complexes, remodels of apartment buildings, remodels of grocery stores, Reasers, all kinds of stuff like that. In office build-outs, office appearance. Dennis Neill: So you were with them until 1999? Greg Gatewood: 1999, then I moved to, or 98. Moved to a lot of Christian Shore, which is another firm, which is a firm here in town. And I did, my main building there was, I did an OU, the OU Honors College. It was good, it was for the Honors College. David Boren was president. We did a little addition to the Honors College and they're close, close to the, I think it's close to the stadium, football stadium there. Dennis Neill: So were you out in your work environment as well? Greg Gatewood: I guess, yeah. Dennis Neill: Any issues? Greg Gatewood: No, in the architecture world, it's kind of not expected, but, but, but, you know, gonna run into one or two at least. Dennis Neill: Yeah. Greg Gatewood: I think there's, even in architecture, there were two gay guys, almost at all points, at all times, there were two gay guys or a gay guy and a lesbian working there all the time. I don't know why. Dennis Neill: So your rich history with TOHR started in 1996, it sounds like, correct? 16 �Greg Gatewood: It must have, yeah. Dennis Neill: So kind of walk us through that, and of course, really highlight your involvement with getting the first Pride permit and your involvement from that point on. Greg Gatewood: Oh, we're gonna go over an hour now. Okay. Dennis Neill: No, we're actually only at 36 minutes. Greg Gatewood: I thought I'd been rambling and making no sense. Okay, oh goodness. So like I said, you saw I started volunteering in 96, it was the center, or not the center, it was the offices, and then when I moved to the first center, the Pride Center, at 38th and Peoria, I remember Steve Horn, Steve Horn was a volunteer coordinator at that point. Greg Gatewood: He was the president the next year, but I think Tom Neal was president, I think, when it was down there, I'm gonna say. Dennis Neill: I think that's correct. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, because, yeah, I started volunteering there on Tuesday nights, once a week. Then I started coming down there and they wanted to do other things, I'd come down and start doing some other stuff, volunteered for Pride, I think it was 97, yeah, when Pride was at Owen Park for a couple years. I think that's because Toby has told me this, he's like, I was told to tell him to do trash stuff at Owen Park, I don't recall that at all, so it must have been, had to be 97, but that was the first year I think of Pride, it was 97, but was volunteer of the year in 97, started doing some other stuff down there at the center, then joined the board in 1998. 1998 was a very memorable year for TOHR, now OkEq, because it was my first year on the board, we had taken over store, the Pride store was in there, it was run by somebody else at that point, until that point, but TOHR bought them out. So when I became a board member, I and Steve Horn and Ken Southern, that was later in the year, we started spending a lot of time trying to get the center, we had that store, we wanted to make it profitable, that was a source of income. I think we were making six or seven hundred dollars a month off the store, and that was, we needed the money. But in 1998 also, as a new board member, the biggest decision I ever made at that point was HOPE, we spun off HOPE in the first couple months of that year. There were some financial difficulties or improprieties, you might say, and some dangers that could have happened. 17 �So there was a board meeting in which HOPE, which is Health, then it was HIV Outreach Prevention Education, but now it's Health, I think Health Outreach Prevention Education, it was a program of TOHR, saying that there had been some issues going on, and so it was in the best interest for it to be split off into its own non-profit, because to be honest, from what was I told from state office people, or state office, state people, that if something didn't happen, then the state would close you down. So, it was split off. That was in 98, probably February, March, it was early 98. That was, yeah, that was split off. Lost a couple board members over that because… it was a long-time board member walked out of the room then. So it was tumultuous. But I think since that happened, both TOHR now OkEq, and HOPE have now both grown in different, I mean, I think HOPE is doing good up to OkEq, HOPE is now where, look where they are. Look where OkEq is and Hope. But yeah, that was a tough decision. But then Pride started, of course you had the center. I think the center, it was called the Pride Center at that point, unofficially. Everyone in the gay community center movement was renaming their centers then. So we renamed it the Tulsa Gay Community Services Center. Again, bad name. And I can show the logo, I'm sure it says, but anyway, we called it that then, we called it that. And then we started to have, first we had Pride. We were gonna have, it was in June, so we were gonna change, one, we wanted to change it and become way more visible. Me, Steve Horn and Rick Martin. So we decided we're gonna, instead of Owen Park or Mohawk Park, we just like, we wanted it to be more visible. It's like, the city gave us three choices, I think was, what's it, [Boulder Park[ it's called Dream Keepers Park now. Dream Keepers Park was a choice. A park, Haikey Creek Park, believe it or not, was also a choice somehow, but that was a county park. And some park, I think it's the park out at like 61st and Memorial in that area. There's a park in there, that was a choice we had. We could have it at Owen Park if we had the boy scouts park cars, and you didn't want that at that point. So we chose Boulder Park and moved the date and moved the location, made it more visible. And there have been marches going on in 96 and, I think, no, the first one was in 97, maybe, I think, the march at Owen Park. 98 was gonna be the second march. So Rick started doing stuff for the march. And so he has marches the short ways, I think from downtown somewhere to Boulder Park or Dream Keepers Park. And when Rick was getting, or talking to somebody, I don't know if you had a permit or not for to walk on the sidewalks, but the police chief at that point asked him, well, why aren't you all having a parade? And this is in 98, and probably two or three weeks before the actual date of parade. So, but yeah, parade, so you can't really pull off a parade in two 18 �weeks, because it's been tried. Can't get a permit. But we did start, it's like, well, it's gonna happen the next year. So before 98 Pride had happened, plans were already talked about for a parade in 99. So as soon as that was over, we started plans for 99 and the first parade. And we kind of lucked out, because we had a very dedicated group of people that were doing stuff. One reason is because, not only is that the one reason, there were multiple reasons. In 98, we had decided as a board that we need to increase TOHR's visibility and name and presence of doing things. So we decided to have an event every month for the next 12 months. Greg Gatewood: And you had a lot of stuff, we had Halloween parties. I mean, we didn't have the business or the huge crowds, but Halloween parties to Superbowl parties to all kinds of little gatherings. And we spent so much time. But that, but Pride was rolling around. And so we changed locations for Dream Keepers Park. And we sent out a letter. I was in charge of booths, so I started sending out letters to businesses. I got some very positive feedback from some local businesses and gay groups. And started relationships with Budweiser and various things. Greg Gatewood: So in 99, well after 98 was over, we started playing from 99. And we were fortunate that we got…He was Parade Chair, well Mitch was Parade Chair, Mitch Savage was Parade Chair. He hired Ken Southerd, who was a long-time volunteer with TOHR at that point. He basically hired him to do the parade. And then we had, oh my lordy, I forgot about that, we had Barney Frank, who was the only out, who was the first out gay congressman in the United States. And we had him as a, we were talking, it was like, who can we get as Parade, Grand Marshal, he's gonna draw name interest that we can, you know, not pay, because we need this to be free. Greg Gatewood: So we had, someone wrote Barney Frank, and he accepted. So we had people, he accepted, we didn't have to pay him, we didn't have to pay him, we don't pay him. But we did fly him first class, so we had people trade in their points, so we could bump him up to first class. That was probably Mitch, I think, or behind the scenes, Mitch and Ken did a lot of work in, for the parade, for the parade, massive amounts. Dennis Neill: And do you remember who reached out…Who came up with the idea and reached out to Barney. Greg Gatewood: I don't know, we were probably some planning meeting. Yeah. I don't know who, whose idea it was, but the, of course, when he accepted, and I was, what was good about that weekend, because he was a big, I was his host. Me and B.J. Kissinger, I think, from the Democratic Party, were his co-hosts, so everywhere that Barney went, we 19 �had to be. I had hit my knee, sat in for pride that day, when Barney got in, I'd hit it with a, by a soccer goal down at the park. We were moving it, it hit my knee, bumped it, it's swollen up to the size of a softball by the next day. So I was hobbling around. I got a really bad sunburn. I'll never forget that year. I got a bad sunburn from setting up. We had that for dinner that night with Barney Frank. I was sunburned really bad. Yeah, that was the first, that was, to me, in my mind, that's the first gala we had, actually. Dennis Neill: Yeah, and if I recall right, and correct me if I'm wrong, Greg, it seems like the dinner was at Greenwood Cultural Center. Greg Gatewood: Greenwood Cultural Center, yes. That was in, we partnered with Cimarron Alliance to get that building, to get that dinner done. It was at Greenwood Cultural Center. And I think, I will say, I know we charged $75 a ticket, and then more, I think it was $50 more for the reception beforehand. And then it was at Greenwood Cultural Center, we were probably, me and Tim Williams, AFAB catering, catered it. We had a good turnout, we had a good turnout. Dennis Neill: And it seems like I remember, didn't we walk from there to reception at OSU, or? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, there was reception, yeah, there was, yeah, there was reception at OSU, yeah. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, and then their dinner was at Greenwood. Dennis Neill: Okay, so it was first, yeah, reception first. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, it was reception, I think, I think, I can't remember. I remember, I was dressed in a tux, I had a really bad sunburn, And it was, and I was with Marty, and my knee was hobbling. But that was, yeah, that was a very memorable year. 1999, the next, and then, of course, the next day, we had an interfaith breakfast at 7 o'clock in the morning, for some unknown reason, on a Sunday. I think Barney had to fly out early, that's because we, so, yeah. Dennis Neill: So what was your actual title with regard to that, 1999? Greg Gatewood: Oh, I was in 99, oh, in 99, I was the first vice president of TOHR at that point, but I was, it was for the, what did I do? I may have been in charge of the festival. Dennis Neill: And you have an interesting story about when the sign first went up on Brookside, do you want to share that story? 20 �Greg Gatewood: Okay, that was in 98, that was in 98. In 1998, like I said, we had moved Pride to Dream Keepers Park because we wanted to be more visible. But we also wanted to put a sign on the building to be visible. So we made a sign, it said, gay, in letters that were like this tall, Gay Community Center and Pride Store. On one label on each side of the street, one on Peoria and one on 38th Street. But when that label came in, we were going to hang it up. This is me again, me, Steve Horn, and Rick Daniels. We did a lot in 1998. We got, the banners came in, and we decided to hang them up. We hung them up from the, we got on the roof, we hung them up, we had the Pride flag on the flagpoles up the roof. We hung up one banner on 38th Street, we hung up the other banner on Peoria. And we were up on the roof, and we were getting ready. And I said, I told Rick and Daniel, I was like, you know, we've, this is going to cause a wreck. This is going to cause, because we're on Peoria, something's going to happen. And we hadn't, we barely got on the roof, it hadn't been ten minutes, if not five. Greg Gatewood: And screeching of tires, metal clad, there was a wreck, directly in front of the center. And I swear, it had to be the signs, it had to be the signs. Those signs caused some issues later on. Dennis Neill: speaking of those signs. Can you review that with us a little bit, about Kerry’s involvement in that, because I recall, it seems like Mark Bonney might have been involved in that dispute too. Gret Gatewood: Yeah, there was a guy, well I don't know much about the law thing, what happened there. But I was just, yeah, yeah, the signs, we hung up the signs, yeah, kind of, well, we hung up the signs, because we want to be visible, we hung up the signs. We got kicked out, we lost our lease because we hung up the signs. And there was, like you said, Kerry, my husband, an attorney, and Mark Bonney, an attorney, were in legal, I know they, I know, I really couldn't say what all was done by, what they all did by, because I wasn't privy to all that. Dennis Neill: So were you involved when we found the new space there on 21st? Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: And talk a little bit about that, the move and how you located that property. Greg Gatewood: Well, I had, Steve had left, that was in 2000, yeah. Steve and his boyfriend had moved to Denver, I think, and right after Pride night, right after the first parade, they moved. Dennis Neill: Steve Horn? 21 �Greg Gatewood: Steve Horn, yeah, they moved, so I became president then. And that's when all that was going, that's when all that was going, the other people handled all the legal stuff. We had to find, we had a year, I guess, yeah, we had a year, but we didn't move until 2000. But because we lost the lease, and there was a legal battle, we ended up moving, having to move. We found the place at 21st and Memorial. One, it was very economical, it was all bills paid, and quite economical. It needed a lot of work. It was kind of half down, and it was hard to describe. Because you came in, and you had to go down steps on either side, you had to go down. The accessible pathway was kind of a nightmare to get there. But when we leased that, I remember I was president. One of the things I remember about that is the different spaces we looked at, that was gonna be the best. We had to do a lot of work to it. So we had some donors, myself and another Kerry. Paint, paint, paint, paint. We painted that building, painted the interiors, but had donors cover the cost of that. When we moved into that building, it was in October of 2000. Yeah, it was October 2000, as I had just left an architecture firm I was with that morning. Well, not that morning, but earlier that month. Why did you ask me about the new space? Dennis Neill: What are your fond memories of being in that space? Oh, well, maybe not just all fond. I mean, I remember it being very smoky because of the... Greg Gatewood: The only place it was next to a bar. A lesbian bar. Dennis Neill Was it TNT's? Greg Gatewood: Was it TNT's? Yeah, I think it was TNT's. I forgot about that. Dennis Neill: The other thing I remember is, one, we had a very active movie night where we'd show the movies and have a decent number of people coming in. Dennis Neill: And then, didn't Open Arms kind of get engaged? Greg Gatewood: Oh, yeah, I forgot. Dennis Neill: Did they start there? Greg Gatewood: They did start there. Yeah, because, well, that place. We moved there in October of 2000. Yeah, Open Arms got involved. Ken had an office over there, and they had a youth group. It was a youth group. They started in there, in that area over on the left, on the right side. Whatever direction that was. 22 �Yeah, there were movie nights. We had the Pride store. We had the quarterly or we had membership meetings every month, I think, so we had to try to have a program. But on that building in particular, in that space, there was one vivid memory is Election Day 2000 because I'd gone down to the center to do some stuff. I can't remember. It was snowing. It was a cold day in 2000 on Election Day. I'd gone to the center. I was doing something, and I got a call. This man had called, and he had driven all night from, I think, Wisconsin somewhere. He had some friends from ORU, and he'd come out as gay to his wife, and he had friends in ORU. He knew he could stay with them. His little car was packed to the brim with everything he had. So he called the center. We were closed because it was in the morning. I said, well, come on down. Come to the center. We have a library. He asked about books and stuff. So he came to the library or came to the center, and he read a couple books while there, took two or three more home, and lent them out. I think we went to lunch because it was Election Day, and I had things to do. And, of course, it was Election Day when Bush 2 got elected. But I remember when he came in, he spent probably four hours total at the center. He had spent all afternoon. When he left, he's like, well, you have no idea how much this helped. He's like, I didn't know where to go. I didn't know what to do. He looked in the phone book, found the gay hotline or whatever it was. We were what that point we were called because, yeah, I forgot about that. When we moved into that place, I was quite intimate, and I was president at that point, that it would be called the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, and Community Center, and it was all being put out there, spelled out. That was also being trimmed. You wanted to spell it out, which we did. So he may have found that in the phone book at that point. But, yeah, he came in. He's like, these books and just being able to come here and talk. We talked for a while, too. He's like, it's just, I don't know what I would have done. It was kind of alluring to a bad thing. But that was in November 2000. We had just moved. We had been there a month. So probably not even a month. Dennis Neill: I noticed something you put in your bio about something that also happened that was important in 1999. If I've read this right, that's where you first met Kerry. Greg Gatewood: Oh, yes. Dennis Neill: Can you talk about that a little bit? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, well, yeah, Kerry, we met. Well, we disagreed on this last time I was writing that. I was like, was it a board meeting? Or, because he joined the board in 1999. 23 �Yeah, when he joined the board, we met. Or a membership meeting or a board meeting, we met in 1999. We started in 1999. We actually, now that I think about it, before we were officially dating, we went to Starbucks at 51st and Harvard because we were on the board. And we had a board retreat with Mitch. And he told us about the SWOT analysis. This is a new thing for all of us. So being like Kerry and I went to Starbucks to write the mission statement. Because there were purposes and stuff, but there was not really, to our knowledge, we couldn't find it anywhere, a written mission statement. So at our little board retreat, Kerry was there and we had a little thing, a practice you said, write down something emotional or something, I can't remember what it was, mine was adult living in fear, a teenager near suicide. Greg Gatewood: And that's, and Kerry, I can't remember what he'd written down, but we were chosen to, well it's like, why don't you all take the stuff that everyone suggested and compose some type of statement, mission statement. And that's where, at that point, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, works for equality, through et cetera. And that's, because at that point it was through, we listed all that, but the adult living in fear, teenager near suicide was kind of an emotional case statement where we started from. Greg Gatewood: But Kerry and I, that's when we met, was either a membership meeting or a board meeting, and got together, we're told, start writing the case, or the mission statement. And then we were dating before Pride, I think. Yeah. Dennis Neill: The 1999 Pride. Greg Gatewood: Before 1999 Pride, yeah, because when we came around the corner that first time, I remember him sitting over there, it's weird that I remember certain things at that first Pride. Dennis Neill: And then did he succeed you as president? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I was president in half of 1999, 2000, he became president in 2001. Dennis Neill: And then do you remember, would next be, was it Mark or Laura? Greg Gatewood: Next was... Greg Gatewood: Dee Beasley. Dennis Neill: Okay. Greg Gatewood: For a brief time. For a brief time. And then Brent Ortolani. 24 �Dennis Neill: Okay, right. Greg Gatewood: Brent Ortolani took over from Dee. Dennis Neill: So in 1999, you and Kerry got together, so you've been together all these years. Greg Gatewood: Ever since, ever since. Dennis Neill: And you're married, is that correct? Greg Gatewood: We are married. Dennis Neill: Tell us a little bit about your ceremony, what made you decide to get married? Greg Gatewood: Our ceremony? Our ceremony was in the hallway of the courthouse. It was very simple, very, and we're done. So that was pretty much it. Dennis Neill: And what year was this? Greg Gatewood: 2018. Dennis Neill: Okay. Greg Gatewood: October, I think. Yeah. Greg Gatewood: It's either 10th or 11th. I think it's the 10th because we were getting ready to go to Europe the next week. So, but that was kind of a trip. Dennis Neill: So I think you stayed involved, right? Even after you stepped down as president, stayed involved with... Greg Gatewood: Oh, good lord, yeah. I was president in 2000, but, well, also in 2000, the big thing, well, I mentioned we got kicked out in, well, we moved in 2000 to the 41st, or 21st and Memorial location. Before we got kicked out, or before we moved, we actually started the capital campaign, because, well, I consider, I don't know if that was 1999 or 2000. It had to have been 2000. It was 2000. Dennis Neill: So that's when the Brady Mansion thing was, I think. Greg Gatewood: No, that was 2001. Dennis Neill: Oh, 2001. 25 �Greg Gatewood: That was February 2001. But before that, there was what I call the Marty Party at Martin Newman's. And this is when we were focused, still primarily focused on Circle Center as the gay community center, because we had toured that at one point. Had so many possibilities. But yeah, we had what I've referred to as the Marty Party, which was at Martin Newman's house. And that's when we presented, we need to do this, you were probably there. That's where we picked up Sue and Marcy, and some other people, a lot of other people, on the capital campaign. Greg Gatewood: That's when we officially started the capital campaign. Dennis Neill: So who do you think originated the concept of the Pyramid Project? Both the name and the... Greg Gatewood: Well, we went through some of the names. It seems like in the gay community, but in the larger community as a whole, naming is a very big thing. But yeah, I want to say, when we first met, it was the original center at 38th and Peoria. I just got back from that, from Creating Change. So yeah, I got back from... Creating Change is the conference that I went to. I think it was Oakland at the time. I've just gotten back, so yeah, it was in late 2000, or early, after Pride, but before October 2000, was probably when the capital campaign started, I think. It started there in the original center, and then we moved to the 21st and Memorial Center. Dennis Neill: So did the name kind of come up through committee, or did someone…? Greg Gatewood: Oh, the Pyramid Project, I think, yeah, it must have come up through committee, because there were different names that were discussed and stuff, and honestly, I don't remember at all who specifically came up with the name. I remember when we first thought of this as, yeah, I want to say, well, Sue and Marcy got re-involved from the very beginning of that, because she was, Sue was chair. I think we, yeah, she was chair. She became chair in 2000, when we first started, I think. Greg Gatewood: So they were big drivers of that, of the name and everything, I think, because to be honest, there was probably just a little bit of hesitation, because pyramid schemes, that was the first thing. I know there was a hesitation because of that name, but it overall became a winner, I think. I do remember on a trip to Vegas, one time we were thought, we need to do, because we'd been doing research on this capital campaign. You know, you had donors, and you had to recognize your donors, and you needed all this stuff, and someone had just taken a trip to Vegas, so they thought, we need to get little pyramids. They sell them at Luxor, and we can have it in people's names. That was the topic that was clear. It was gonna be a donor gift, but it was kind of squished. 26 �Dennis Neill: So then, TOHR moved to a location near 41st and Yale. Were you involved in that transition? Greg Gatewood: Well, that's right, I forgot about that. 21st and Memorial, we were there for what, from 2000 to 2003, I think. 2003, yeah, as a side note on that, when I signed the lease on as president, you sign the lease, the lease typically, because I was so nervous that you're addressing. At one point, I was really nervous. You're personally, financially responsible for that lease as the signer. Obviously, you're the lease signer. That is the reason we had the Gill Outgiving and Community Foundation Seminars. It was because we found that grant, and I wrote the grant for the outgiving and community thing. We had the seminars in 2001, and I think that's the reason we bought this building, was because of the success of the Pyramid Project, and the tactics that were utilized in that were learned through outgiving and community seminars that we, it was through the Gill Foundation. As a note, yeah, I forgot all about that. That was at the center of 21st Memorial. We were outgiving and community program. We were selected through a grant process through the Gill Foundation. We held seminars, development seminars every month, at least half, as part of the stipulation of the grant, at least half of the people that came there had to be from non-gay organizations. So, that's where we got involved with the MET, Red Cross, and various other organizations. So, that's how we made some inroads to those organizations. And, of course, the Pyramid Project learned how to raise money, as so did everyone else. That was, every month was in 2000, I forget all about. I keep forgetting about Gill Outgiving and community [Tulsa Community Foundation], but I credit that as why the Pyramid Project was successful. Dennis Neill: So, was the Pyramid Project your main focus after you stepped down as being the president until what time? Greg Gatewood: I had certainly helped with the Pyramid Project after I stepped down as president. I was probably more, I was always, I was definitely focused on pride. I've always been focused on pride, because I was kind of, I was very involved with that. I, well, what was it, what was 2001, 2002, 2003. There was, what we did, what was going on at the center at 21st and Memorial at that time? Dennis Neill: Seemed like Kerry and I were kind of running those movie nights. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, the movie nights, we started the history, we started the history project in 2003. That started at that center. That's when we had that first dinner. At All Souls, we had the history dinner. Who was the speaker of that? 27 �Dennis Neill: Oh, one was at Lee Badgett or something like that. We had two, we did one one year and then followed it the next year. And then Laura kind of got so involved at OSU, things kind of dropped off, although she did a lot of interviews that we're catching up on right now. So you were involved in Pride. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I did a lot of Pride stuff. I did a lot of event stuff and a bit of some development. Dennis Neill: So do you remember when you rolled off of the board then? What year? Greg Gatewood: 2000, 2001, yeah, 2001, 2001 was Kerry's president and 2002 was Brent, that was, Pride became an emergency situation in 2002. Dennis Neill: Why do you say that? Greg Gatewood: We'd lost the coordinator for Pride and president of the organization. Dennis Neill: Was that Dee? Greg Gatewood: Yeah. And so Brent became president and I stepped in as Pride coordinator and started slashing. Our first meeting, our first meeting, because at that, oh, I forgot about that. In 2000, instead of just having the parade and the festival, we thought, well, why not have fewer things? We expanded it to a week, an entire week. All days, every day of Pride and that was a lot. I'll say that. In 2001, I think we started dropping it back, bringing it back, but what was I talking about then? Dennis Neill: Oh, we were kind of talking about you're involved with Pride and then we kind of get to, we moved to the new center. And then I think, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like we hired our first executive director, Michael Christopher. Greg Gatewood: That was in 2004, had to have been in 2004. Dennis Neill: Okay, and after he left, do you remember when you started it and how did it come about that you became the executive director? I remember that. Yeah, I took a little break in 2004 because it was needed. And then I became, let's see, what was going on? 30 Days, which was a TV show on MTV, I think, I don't know what channel it's on. Tulsa was in the hunt, or the producer of 30 Days had come to Tulsa to interview people to be on the show, 30 Days, where you could have a gay man and a straight man live together for 30 days. And it was the guy that did the McDonald's, the 30 McDonald's for 30 Days. I think he may have passed away by now. What was his name? 28 �He did a McDonald's, only had McDonald's for 30 days. He'd do something for 30 days and see the results. It was a show, but he came and they were interviewing people. I don't know, I met them at the center. Before, I was (?) by any means. They were here in the winter, early 2005. And because we went to numerous bars and interviewed people, I don't know if they found anybody. They'd ask me, but I wouldn't have been able to be there. I was, that was in early 2005. That's when I started, I started, yeah. Because y'all, something, had Michael left or something? Dennis Neill: Yeah. Greg Gatewood: And I'd come, I don't know why, I'd start helping with that 30 Days thing. And then. Maybe an ED at that point. I can't guess. That's hard to remember. That was 20 years ago. Dennis Neill: So did you apply for the position? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, when the new ED position, I applied. Dennis Neill: Do you remember who was on the interview? Greg Gatewood: I remember talking to, I think it was Laura, Mark. Were you there? You were there. Dennis Neill: Might have been. I was on the board until October of 2005. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, so you were there. Because I remember you were in the back room, I interviewed you. I was in the back room, I think. Mark, you, I can see. Atkinson, the first. Yeah, there you are. Yeah. But that was, that center, the 21st. The 41st in Peoria. No, the 41st in Yale. Y'all were knocking down, y'all just knocked down a wall, I think, to create a bigger room, conference room, maybe. Because the center relocated from 21st Memorial to 41st in Yale. I was on my sabbatical. I was on a break. So I wasn't there when everyone moved. I wasn't there for that move, fortunately for me. Dennis Neill: So what do you remember about our time there at 41st and Yale, kind of the programs, activities, thoughts? For example, I know that we got our first grant for the Cyber Center. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, that's when David Bohnett’s Cyber Center opened up, which I noticed is kind of different these days. Well, I just think it's not utilized. I mean, why? 29 �Dennis Neill: Well, that, and they moved everything for that Fringe Festival, and so they got a new step back, but we're working on it. That was a big arts thing we did in September here that took over our building. But we are working with Bohnett right now to kind of figure out the path forward. Greg Gatewood: Okay, because I remember the day of Bohnett’s Cyber Center, because when it first opened, you said, at the 41st and Yale location. About 10, whether 8, 10 computers, something like that, maybe. Dennis Neill: I think it was 6. I think we've always had 6. Greg Gatewood: No, there were more than that. Dennis Neill: There were more, okay. Greg Gatewood: At one point there were more. I don't know if the grant, unless you remember that. Because when you came in that little room, or that space, there were two rows. We had the Northeast, at one point there was a Northeast Active Primetimes. They came and did classes right when it first opened. I can't remember the couple's name. Dennis Neill: I do remember that [Richard and Barbara ?]. Greg Gatewood: But they did classes for elderly people on computers. And then, I don't know whether to talk about that or not, but one of the most memorable things about that place was me getting a phone call on a Sunday telling me someone is not allowed to go in that center anymore because of things tied to that cyber center. Dennis Neill: Misuse of the cyber center? Greg Gatewood: Because they used it to look at things… Dennis Neill: Talk to us about the highs and lows of your time as the executive director. Greg Gatewood: Well, highs, I was executive director, okay. Highs, probably one of the highest highs was the day we moved in here. Or not moved in here, we didn't move in here, but we raised the flag here. I'll never forget that day. It was cold, I think it was in November 2005, probably. Because we bought it in October. Dennis Neill: September. So it was real shortly after that. Greg Gatewood: It was shortly after. But we didn't remodel or anything. We had not occupied it. But it was not really long after. Because, again, I got back from training at Creating Change again because I remember I bought new clothes in San Francisco. But we 30 �raised the flag up here. We raised the flag. That was a really high day. We raised the pride flag here. I thought it was a good day. It was a really good day. I remember you were here. Greg Gray was here. I don't know why I remember talking to you all right in hat room out there, because my suntan was running, my fake suntan, I'd put on fake suntan to look good. I was sweating and my tan was running down the back of my neck, I think. But that was a really good day. And the first event we ever had. Dennis Neill: Which was? Greg Gatewood: Was here in the building. The center was not officially opened. It was the, so it would have been in 2006. It was in the events center. It was the art show for Pride. But you had entered from the garage door. I don't know if it's still there. Is this the garage door that faced the alley? Dennis Neill: Yes. Greg Gatewood: That's how you entered from that way and came in. That was the first official event we ever had here. Dennis Neill: Now I remember Sue and Marcy organizing the Pyramid fundraiser here. Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah. We had a trolley thing. We came from someone's house here one time. Dennis Neill: Yeah. We had that big dinner here and it seemed like we raised… Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah. I forgot about that. The big dinner. Oh yeah, that dinner. I was the ED. That was Sue and Marcy because Kerry and I attended as donors. Dennis Neill: That was probably 06 also. Greg Gatewood: That had to have been 06, I think. Dennis Neill: You were here as the ED for the dedication, February 12th of 07. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I was here the day we opened. That was a very good day. I'll never forget. Yeah, that's a really good day. I'll never forget the song. I have that song downloaded on my iTunes. Dennis Neill: What was it? 31 �Greg Gatewood: It's one of my funeral songs. It's a long story. “What Have You Done.” They played it on the video for the Pyramid Project at the very end. What Have You Done Today To Make Me Feel Proud. I can't remember the artist's name. I love the song. But that song was played a lot at that gathering downstairs. Downstairs, wherever we are. Dennis Neill: I remember that. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, that was the day we opened. Was it February? Dennis Neill: It was February. Greg Gatewood: Oh, we moved in before… Dennis Neill: It was right before that Valentine's. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you mentioned Valentine's. You mentioned the, what's it called now, the Tate Mansion. Dennis Neill: Oh, yeah. Greg Gatewood: Party, the first Wild Hearts Ball. Dennis Neill: Oh, yeah, uh-huh. Dennis Neill: When did you leave as executive director, do you recall? Greg Gatewood: June of 2007. Dennis Neill: June of 2007, right. Greg Gatewood: June 14th, 2007, Flag Day. Dennis Neill: Okay, so from the time that you left the architectural firm, what year was your last gig with the architectural firm? Greg Gatewood: Oh, with the architectural firm. Oh, I left in 2000. Dennis Neill: So have you been involved in architectural work since then? Greg Gatewood: Not with firms. Dennis Neill: Okay. 32 �Greg Gatewood: Not with firms. I've done work on my own. I do work by myself. I do mostly residential stuff. Commercial, I love commercial. Dennis Neill: So tell us a little bit about your involvement with TOHR after you left as executive director. You've got such an interesting relationship with Nancy MacDonald that we really want you to cover as much of that interaction and work with PFLAG and Nancy as you want to share. Greg Gatewood: Sure. Well, you mentioned I left OkEq on June 14, 2007. I'll be honest, it wasn't good for me anyway. Hopefully it wasn't good for others. But, yeah, it was a tough time for myself. Real tough for a number of reasons. I know I wasn't involved with any more way, shape, or form until 2000. What, 20 [2020]? It was the 40th anniversary. We were going to do something. It was right before. I think it was 2019. Dennis Neill: Is that when you started helping me up here? Greg Gatewood: I think that because that had to have been there. Because we were getting ready. The gala was going to be the 40th Gala. And, of course, then COVID hit. And then now the gala. I think that's what made it 2019. Dennis Neill: I started working in 2019 to get this thing going. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, so, yeah. Nancy, I remember the first time, of course Nancy McDonald was a former national PFLAG president from Tulsa here. I remember the first, well not the first time I met her. At the center, I'm sure it was 1998 or 99. Was it 98? 99. We named this, the Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library after her. That was when, I probably met her beforehand, but Chastity Bono came to town for a PFLAG dinner. And that was, yeah, we were at the other center, the original center when that came to town. And Chastity, what's her name now? What's his name now? Dennis Neill: Chas. Greg Gatewood: Chas. Yeah. Came to dinner, we had an event at the center, at the original center, and it's named, there's a picture somewhere. And that's one of the first times I met Nancy. I met Nancy back in the 90s. And when we, that was in 99, because in 99 was also the year we had that, the gala. The Barney Frank Gala. First gala. And I remember, we talked, we were talking to her, I remember her coming up to the center, yeah, and helping Leanne do stuff and stuff. And that's when I first, that's probably when I first met her. I mean, I met her, maybe met her, I don't know, back in the early 90s when you were having the, you know, the Tulsa, the city of Tulsa stuff. And obviously through PFLAG, you know, read about her. But we became, Nancy and I became friends after I, she was of course 33 �PFLAG president the entire time I was involved. And after I left, we started having, we'd have lunch once a month or so, we started having lunch, just talk. Because we, she grew up in Nebraska, in rural Nebraska, farm country. I grew up in rural Oklahoma. Not necessarily farm. And so we could talk farming for sure. We could talk farming. And we could also talk, you know, LGBT stuff too. So yeah, we did, we did, we'd go to lunch, we'd go to lunch usually once, at least once a month, always at a Mexican place. Because Joe didn't like Mexican. And so she only ate Mexican when we ate Mexican. That's also the only time I eat Mexican because Kerry doesn't like Mexican. So now I don't eat Mexican. Dennis Neill: Call me up sometime, I'll go out with you. Greg Gatewood: So now I just don't, so now I don't eat Mexican. When did Oklahoma, voted on the marriage, ban marriage. When did we do that? I remember, have you ever, that was early 2000? Dennis Neill: Like 04, 06. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, something might be 04 maybe? Dennis Neill: Might have been. Greg Gatewood: Because we were coming, Nancy and I were coming back from Stillwater, she gave a talk or something at the Stillwater gay group, whatever it was called, down in OSU. We were coming back and we were talking about how it's going to be, you know, obviously we're going to lose, but yeah, but Nancy was an incredible lady in my book. Yeah, we, after I left, we, I, she always said, if I ever wrote a book of the stories she has, I want a share of that book. Dennis Neill: Speaking of that, you know, when she passed and I was visiting with Morva a little bit as they prepared for her service, the thing I failed to follow up on were her recorda which she had suggested that she would donate to our archives. So we never got that closure on that. Are you in touch at all with any of the family? Or do you know where Joe is these days? Greg Gatewood: I was thinking about Joe the other day, because I didn't know if he was still at Montereau, or had moved in with one of the sons or something. I'd think Jason if it was, but I haven't. I saw something on social media that Jason had posted about Joe, but this is probably a few months ago. So I was wondering about Joe the other day, and see if he is doing all right, because I knew he'd had health issues. And so, yeah. 34 �Dennis Neill: How about with regard to Nancy, what's kind of the most memorable moment that you remember working with Nancy on one of her wonderful causes? Greg Gatewood: I don't have a thing up my sleeve. Probably one of the probably, oh my, I'd say Pride. One of the most memorable moments was at Pride 2007, probably. Yeah, I just confided in her some stuff that something happened, and I was like, good God, what's going to happen? And she just said, she, I can't say what she said, but it was so encouraging that it just made you feel better. Just, it was, because I was really worried about something. And she's like, well, you're not that type of person at all. And she just made you feel better. Just, and just, it was, but, yeah. That was probably during the Pride of 2007. Dennis Neill: She was the mother for all of us. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, she was. I... mother. Yeah, she was the mother of a lot of gay guys here in Tulsa. Dennis Neill: I always considered her my lifetime mentor. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and yeah, she was, yeah, she was the mother you could talk to with you. You couldn't talk to your mother, then you talk to Nancy. Greg Gatewood: There was one other thing that came to mind that is important to the history of OkEq. In 1998, Matthew Shepard died. So I don't know why I'm getting emotional. Oh, so anyway, we're at the center. This young man comes in, young, probably in his early 20s, maybe at that old. He's like, what are you all going to do? Are you going to do something for Matthew Shepard? He had just been attacked. He wasn't actually dead yet. And it had been a long, I don't remember what was going on. But basically, me and Rick and this kid decided we needed to do something. Steve, we was, you know, Steve was busy with his, I think, a new boyfriend. So we started getting this little, we need to do something. So we had on this, where was it, the library in downtown. We ended up having the attorney general give a proclamation. There, Dan was, Drew Edmondson did a proclamation from the state of Oklahoma from the attorney general. Council Oak sang. And I remember, we didn't expect that many people to be there, because it was very spur of the moment. Me and Rick and that young man went to bars. That's how, there was no internet. We didn't do the internet thing. And so we went to bars and with little flyers. And here, everyone needs to come. This is happening. And we had a good service. But I remember people literally walked up from Renegades, which was 13th, 16th and Main, something like that. They walked up to the Civic Center Plaza. We probably 35 �had 300 people there, I would think. And that was important for OkEq, because one, the more it recognized the importance… Matthew Shepherd an important bit in the history of the whole community. It also brought a lot. We got a lot. We were on the front page the next day. Because I was on the front page the next day. Because we lit candles. We had a lighting candle ceremony and the council folks sang. So we got a lot of recognition for that. Dennis Neill: Did you do the same in helping Nancy on the sweep away the hate? Greg Gatewood: I was not involved with that. I think, after my time there. I know they did the sweep, but that was sweeps of hate. I can't remember. Was that for the Phelps thing? Dennis Neill: Yeah, the Phelps was boycotting the Sand Springs High School because, I don't know who it was, a student that was involved…[2004 Westbro Baptist Church protested Michale Shakleford, 17 year-old high school student]. Greg Gatewood: Oh, one of the students out there. Yeah, the Phelps people, they protested the first parade, all the stuff that went through that. I didn't chase them out of town. I followed them out of town. In 2000, just to make sure they left town, after they protested the young guy's graduation, because he had started at GSA. I followed him out of town. That 1998 thing was just important to bring up. Dennis Neill: Any other thoughts or memories you want to share as we kind of conclude our interview? Greg Gatewood: Well, when I think about the history of OkEq, one, pride. I think about pride. I think about this building, the people, mostly the people. Because I've met a lot of friends. I've met my husband, obviously. I probably should mention that. I've met a lot of friends, obviously, through the community center. It's hard to believe it's been 20 years now. No, 30 years. Good God, 30 years. It has been 30 years, hasn't it? Still not as many as other people, but yeah, it has been. Dennis Neill: Well, we've all had our ups and downs with this organization. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I had a down. Dennis Neill: I understand. But we appreciate so much you sharing your time with us and letting others know about the important history that you've been sharing with us. Greg Gatewood: There's a lot. If I rack my brain or think of different things, I could tell you stories. Some are good. Some are really good. Some are bad. Some should not ever be told. But if you want I could write some. I could write down. I write good, too. 36 �Dennis Neill: We'd love to add whatever you'd like to to the file and the transcript. That'd be great. Yeah, absolutely. Anything you feel comfortable. Because it's been so interesting going through these oral histories and reading all those that Laura did. It really just brings back so many memories to me. Greg Gatewood: Like the Matthew Shepard thing. That's something that is kind of a blip. Well, not a blip. That really did, I think, help that event. That event and the spontaneity of it. It was less than a week. And it was no push email, mass email, or social media. It was the same for all prides. For the first prides until mid-2000 or 2000. We went to every bar. Every Friday and Saturday night. And there were seven or eight bars in town then. We went to every bar on Friday and Saturday night. And I didn't think of it until later. I'm the person that I hated that would put stuff on your windshield. Can I come out after or something? We would paper every car in every parking lot in every bar and close by parking lots for pride. Here's your pride schedule. And we'd do that every Friday and Saturday night for three or four months before pride. Dennis Neill: Well, Greg, thanks again for sharing your story. And please feel free to write down some of the thoughts that we can share with the audience. Greg Gatewood: Sometimes I write better than I talk. Dennis Neill: Thank you. Greg Gatewood: Thank you. 37 �More Memorable Moments (by Greg Gatewood) June 2026 An Unsung Hero I first volunteered with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) in 1996. I do not recall who ‘showed me the ropes’ of answering the helpline when the operations of TOHR were located at 41st and Harvard. That initial time of volunteering for TOHR was fairly short-lived due to a number of factors. However, I definitely recall the first person I met when beginning to volunteer again at the original “Pride Center” in 1997. That first person was Steve Horn. Steve was the volunteer coordinator, as well as 1st Vice-President, I believe, at that time. Steve’s dedication to the purposes and mission of TOHR definitely had an impact on me. Steve became President while I became an at-large member of the board in 1998. Major and impactful decisions were not only made, but also accomplished, for TOHR and the Tulsa Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) community in the short 1.5 years under Steve’s leadership and dedication. Beginning in January 1998 through June 1999, Steve was at the Center nearly every day leading the movement of working for equality for the Tulsa LGBT community. He would normally show up at the Center before 6 pm (after a full day of work at his actual ‘work’ office), open the Center, work for a solid 4 hours, welcome and talk to others while doing that work, close the Center at 10 pm, and then finally go home. That was repeated Monday thru Friday for the next 1.5 years. Weekends brought more time to work for the community. So, 6 to 8 hours on Saturdays and 4 hours on Sundays were normal. I know Steve was there all that time, because I was there with him. I sincerely believe the foundation for the future success of TOHR was set in 1998 and 1999 under Steve Horn’s leadership and dedication. HOPE (Health Outreach, Prevention, and Education) HOPE, initially a program of TOHR, was split-off to become a separate non-profit in early 1998. This was an incredibly hard and difficult decision for all members of the Board of Directors as well as for the membership of OkEq (all decisions were voted upon by the membership at that time). However, due to the severe consequences the State of Oklahoma would definitely have taken against TOHR and HOPE, aka the complete dismantling of both organizations by the State of Oklahoma, we knew it was vitally necessary. The very questionable actions made by previous administrations and individuals forced this action to occur in order to ensure the survival of both TOHR and 38 �HOPE. Today, both organizations continue to serve the LGBT community and general community in their own capacities. THE anonymous gift of 1998 The necessary split of HOPE from TOHR resulted in multiple positives for both organizations. However, it did come with a few setbacks. The primary sources of funding for TOHR after the split were memberships, a few but regular donations, and profit from the newly acquired and expanded Pride Store. As the end of the 1998 approached, and despite very careful budgeting with strict adherence to that budget, the serious question of “how we will pay rent” and “will we have to close the doors” was a real threat. An anonymous gift, an amount to cover rent though the end of year plus a bit more, was then delivered to the TOHR office in the newly renamed “Tulsa Gay Community Services Center.” That anonymous gift kept the doors open in 1998 and helped set the course for success in 1999. Approximately 3 years later, I finally learned who was that anonymous donor. Tulsa Pride Tulsa Pride ’99 featured the 1st Tulsa LGBT Pride Parade. However, there were several important earlier moments that led to that 1st Tulsa LGBT Pride Parade in 1999. Planning for Pride ’99 began before Pride ’98 even happened. When the then Tulsa Chief of Police asked us “why aren’t you having a parade” while discussing the sidewalk march of ’98, we developed a plan. Steve Horn, Rick Martin, and I decided then and there to have Tulsa’s 1st Pride Parade in 1999. However, Pride ’98 was in two short weeks and we had goals to accomplish, not to mention pulling off the upcoming celebration. A major and very important component for us was higher visibility and to grow attendance, so we relocated Pride ’98 to Veterans Park (now Dreamkeepers Park) and moved the date to the second Saturday of June (to avoid Father’s Day weekend). One of my more memorable moments of Pride ’98 is of Rick Martin and me deciding to rent a trailer the day before the Picnic to use as the stage. This was great as it elevated the entertainers above the crowd. The entertainers soon discovered the gaps between the wooden floor of the trailer were just wide enough to trap a high heel - just ask lead entertainer Kris Kohl : ) The struggle to make the 1st Tulsa LGBT Pride Parade actually happen was very real. Due to the Tulsa City Council’s intention to deny any permit for the 1st Tulsa Pride Parade as they had delayed the vote twice - we made plans. Those plans included having a lawsuit written and prepared to be filed the next day in the event of any denial of any permit. We were 39 �definitely ready. The City of Tulsa attorney had informed the Tulsa City Council that a denial of the parade permit would not only bring consequences, it was also highly illegal. Only due to the illegality and potential lawsuits did the Tulsa City Council vote to approve the parade permit. A few of us attended the Tulsa City Council when they were again scheduled to vote on the parade permit. Immediately prior to voting to grant the permit, we were treated firsthand to full-on bigotry through mini-sermons, condemnation, and outright hate-filled statements from nearly all of the then Tulsa City Council members. The ‘controversy’ surrounding the parade permit vote turned out to be quite good. The antics of the Tulsa City Council caught the attention of the Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church (WBC). The condemnation by the Tulsa City Council and resulting protests by the WBC brought even more free press coverage. Knowledge of and interest in Tulsa’s 1st Pride Parade skyrocketed. The result was a much larger attendance and participation than anticipated. I so remember riding the leading float with Steve and Phillip. As we rounded the corner at 21st and Boulder and saw the thousands of people cheering loudly, I remember initially thinking, ”what have we done?” only to immediately realize “damn, we have succeeded”. I will never forget that feeling of joy and pride. I was fortunate to be the host representative of TOHR for US Representative and Grand Marshal of the 1st Tulsa Pride Parade, the Honorable Barney Frank, during Tulsa Pride 1999. ‘Host’ simply meant that everywhere Barney went, I was there with him. B.J. Kissinger, the host representative of the Tulsa County Democratic Party, and I were treated to some amazing stories of the inner-workings of the US House of Representatives, why Barney really wanted to come to Tulsa, and his new boyfriend’s nervousness of attending an upcoming dinner with President Bill Clinton at the White House among additional stories and anecdotes. A few things definitely stand out during that memorable weekend: 1) Barney would not eat dinner at “An Evening with Barney Frank,” the inaugural Equality Gala, until after he spoke. Why? He did not want to risk having any food stuck in his teeth while speaking. 2) Barney jumped right in to play volleyball with attendees at the Tulsa Pride Festival. He thoroughly enjoyed that time as he was smiling and laughing, commenting after a game or two “there’s some good athletes in Tulsa.” 3) The entire crowd at the Pride Festival sat down on the grass and listened to Barney as he spoke from the stage. That moment of watching thousands listen intently to him was one of was one of the most memorable and rewarding of being heavily involved with Tulsa Pride for over a decade. Note: There should be (or at least there was) a video of the entire 1st Tulsa Pride Parade in the History Archives of OkEq. That video was taken from atop the old (now demolished) RR Bridge spanning Riverside Drive near 31st and Riverside. 40 �The success of the events of 1999 led to major expansion in 2000. Primarily a one-day event that contained the Pride Parade, the Pride Festival, and the Gala all on the same day in 1999 became an over a week-long celebration in 2000. Please refer to “Diversity Celebration 2000” in the historical collections for a complete schedule. 9 events in 8 days I think. In fact, I took a week of vacation off of my profession (Architecture) to help ensure the success of that week. Kerry Lewis, my now husband, did the same from his profession as an Attorney. The Grand Marshalls of the Pride Parade and featured speakers at the Gala and Festival were Dr. Grethe Cammermeyer and Greg Louganis. Dr. Cammermeyer inspired the crowd when she spoke eloquently at the Gala of her time with the US Armed Forces and forced departure. The next day, she led the parade with great pride. She again spoke eloquently from the stage during the Festival and greeted many attendees throughout the afternoon. Greg Louganis was the exact opposite. He demanded special treatment at the Gala while speaking only of himself. He left the parade early, breaking his contract, to feed his dog and to take a nap. He then badmouthed Tulsa the following year when he was in Denver. Soulforce in Oklahoma, a LGBT organization based on the Dr. Martin Luther King principles of non-violence, brought in Rev. Mel While to further reach all in the community. Rev. While was a former ghostwriter for Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and Pat Robertson before coming out as a gay man. He then became a leading LGBT+ activist and inspirational speaker. Rev. White spoke to a packed house at the Tulsa PAC worship service and inspired more through workshops. Note: Rev. While is the father of Mike White, an out gay man and writer / director of the HBO hit-show “White Lotus,” The success of the Tulsa Pride celebrations of 1999 and 2000 through the use of wellknown names and activists (as planned) allowed us to focus on important issues such as Hate Crimes in 2001. The Grand Marshalls of the parade and featured speakers at the Gala and Festival were parents of recent hate crime victims. Those three (3) parents, ___, ___, and ___ reminded all in attendance at the various events to double-down to work for equality. Their remarks at both the Gala and Festival were some of the most emotional I’ve ever heard. I hope their words continue to have an impact and are still felt today throughout the Tulsa LGBT and allied community. My involvement with Tulsa Pride unfortunately ended in 2007. 2000 was an extremely busy and productive year for TOHR. A few highlights: 1. I was President of the Board of Directors (that actually began in July 1999 with Steve’s relocation to Denver, CO). 41 �2. The Pyramid Project, the successful Capital Campaign of TOHR, began in 2000. Sue Welch became chair while I as President became co-chair (a stipulation of then bylaws that the President of the Board was a co-chair on all committees). 3. “Diversity Celebration 2000,” aka Tulsa Pride, expanded to over a week+ series of very successful events. 4. Members of the LGBT and allied community protested at the Boy Scouts headquarters in Brookside in Midtown Tulsa. 5. The “Tulsa Gay Community Services Center,” the name adopted in 1998 and formerly known as the Pride Center, relocated to 21st and Memorial and was subsequently renamed the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Community Center 6. The Board of Directors welcomed its first member of the Transgender community. 7. I was the Oklahoma coordinator for the 2000 March on Washington (see more information below). 8. Kerry and I attended our first “Creating Change” conference in Oakland, CA. The information gleaned and learned at the conference helped ‘set the stage’ for the future of TOHR. 9. We planned and executed a successful “kettle protest” of the Salvation Army. The Salvation Army did not (do not?) like members of the LGBT community. The “kettle protest” involved putting a protest note in lieu of money in the Salvation Army kettles. 10. TOHR became the recipient of the “OutGiving InCommunity” grant (see more information below). In 2000, I wrote the grant that bought the Denver-based Gill Foundation to the Tulsa community. OutGiving InCommunity was a series of fundraising and organizational workshops and teachings for local non-profits and individuals held monthly during 2001. A requirement of those workshops was that 50% of all attendees were to be representatives of non-LGBT organizations. This requirement strengthened the fundraising techniques of various organizations and individuals while also strengthening and developing important relationships. I firmly believe those workshops and teachings were THE reason why TOHR was successful in the “Pyramid Project” capital campaign. The Pyramid Project began in 2000 in the original center at 38th/Peoria in Brookside. The current building housing the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center was purchased in 2005. The purchase of a permanent 42 �building in 5 short years was a tremendous accomplishment for such a small organization. What we learned as a result of the OutGiving Incommunity grant not only laid the foundation for the purchase of a building for ng the permanent Center, but also the impetus why OkEq was awarded a FastTrack grant from the Gill Foundation. Ex: during the 2001 Gala, a direct “ask” was made from the podium utilizing techniques learned from the OutGiving InCommunity workshops. The “ask” was the largest one-night infusion, at that point, of funds to TOHR. The week after Pride I notified representatives of the Gill Foundation of our success. The result was a multi-thousand dollar operating grant to “FastTrack” the organization towards further success. I also was the statewide coordinator for Oklahoma for the 2000 March on Washington. It was easy to spot and find the Oklahoma contingent on the National Mall, as an Oklahoma flag flew high above the tens of thousands of people preparing to march down Constitution Avenue. It was also easy to see and hear us during the march, as we not only carried a banner 10’ above the crowd (we brought flags, banners and PVC on the plane), we also sang “Oklahoma” in unison. Suffice it to say, as we sang the state song and especially as we hit the chorus of “where the wind comes sweeping the plains” – it was a big crowd hit. The march was fun, the rally was great, and the concert at RFK Stadium was amazing. 2001 was another banner year for TOHR. The monthly “OutGiving InCommunity” workshops drew many non-LGBT representatives into the Center. This resulted in strengthened relationships as well as successful fundraising. Kerry Lewis was the President of the Board of Directors throughout 2001. His leadership and dedication brought new faces, new ideas, and further success for the Tulsa LGBT community. By 2005, the Center relocated to the 41st and Yale area. I also became the full-time Executive Director in early 2005. Once again, I hit the ground running. However, prior to that, I was asked to be at the Center to welcome and host the producers of a “30 Days” television show. That show aimed to highlight people learning how to accept each other, through having a heterosexual man live with a gay man for 30 days. We (two producers and I) set up interviews at the Center and in various LGBT nightclubs and bars around town. In the end, the producers asked me to be that gay man living with a heterosexual man for 30 days. However, I was not in the position to do that arrangement at that point and to my knowledge, the show never came to fruition. “Brokeback Mountain” (and the something only one or two people know about to this day). Prior to the national release of the groundbreaking film “Brokeback Mountain,” I received a call from a producer of the film. Due to the films country/western focus and subject matter, as well as because of the success of TOHR, I was asked if Tulsa and TOHR would be 43 �interested in hosting the World Premiere of “Brokeback Mountain.” Discussions ensued with the possibility of such an event happening in Tulsa. However, due to marketing and production decisions and needs, it unfortunately (and obviously) did not come to pass. However, TOHR did celebrate “Brokeback Mountain” in a big way. A free BBQ dinner was held at the Center with the capacity crowd packing every space, including the storage room, in the Center. We then walked or drove together to the film’s opening night at the AMC Theatres a few blocks away. We purchased the permanent building housing the Center in 2005. I remember attending an event around the corner on 3rd Street in the newly designated “East Village” prior to touring and purchasing the building. While at that event, I ran into Dennis Neill. We both commented to each other something like “have you seen that building on 4th Street” (of course we both had)…we definitely need to look into that building.” Obviously, the “bomb factory” was bought and was immediately followed by Sue Welch and her team getting to work on renovations. In the interim, day-to-day operations of the then Center near 41st and Yale continued. Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights was renamed “Oklahomans for Equality” (OkEq) in 2006. (“Equality Oklahoma,” the original choice, had been ‘taken’ a couple weeks earlier by a now defunct organization). This rebranding effort included the new name and a new logo (note: I designed all logos and completed all graphics, newsletter, eNews, etc. prior to the new name and logo) among other necessary items. A couple of memories during that process was at one of the meetings I commented “we really need to get involved with this new thing called Facebook.” I was rebuffed on that suggestion by the new logo designer and the then President of the Board of Directors. A funny thing about that new (and current) logo: it was jokingly referred to as the “Who killed Kenny” (see “Southpark) logo by a friend and donor. The logo can be seen as reflecting the mission, however, I can’t forget “Who killed Kenny”… While attending “Creating Change” in San Francisco in 2006, I and the ED of the New York City LGBT Community Center were talking in the lobby of the hotel. During our visit, I was telling him about our recent purchase, ongoing remodel, and planned opening of the new 18,000 square feet Tulsa LGBT Community Center. The result: I joined the Board of Directors of the National Association of LGBT Community Centers. This was a great honor and immediately brought contacts, advice, and important avenues for further success for OkEq. I was reelected to that same board in early 2007 at Creating Change in Kansas City, MO. The future of OkEq seemed so bright. 44 �“Sirius” radio also came calling in 2006. I, through working with the producers of a show on Sirius focused on the LGBT community, set-up a live broadcast of the nationally broadcast show from the Tulsa LGBT Community Center (41st and Yale location). The Center was packed with people to listen and support OkEq and the Center. (Note: I attended an event honoring Nancy McDonald that evening as yet once again I was prevented from on that live, national broadcast). One of the most memorable days of my decade plus of involvement with TOHR / OkEq was the day I raised the Pride flag on the roof of the Dennis R Neill Equality Center. It was a celebration attended by hundreds of the Tulsa LGBT community on a beautiful November day filled with sunshine. I will never forget that feeling. I will never forget that day. 2007 brought change. We moved into and opened the doors of the newly named Dennis R Neill Equality Center in early 2007. The celebration was unforgettable! “Proud” (a theme song of the “Pyramid Project” and now btw, one of my “funeral” songs) played. I will never forget the people, the music, and the joy we all felt. It was a fantastic day filled with pride for all in the community. I will never forget that day. Remodeling work continued. Technology work began and continued. I definitely recall what seemed like the never-ending technology upgrades and installation of new databases that prevented me from actually using my office computer for 3 out of 5 days for 3 months. However, our work continued. Tulsa Pride 2007 was approaching, and now with 2.5 fulltime employees, progress was being accomplished. Two or three weeks before Tulsa Pride 2007, the Board of Directors asked me to develop a 3-year strategic plan. I did. That 3-year strategic plan was greeted and accepted with accolades and thanks as it was a fairly detailed strategic plan filled with expanded programming plans, fundraising plans and goals, and so much more. (Note: that plan appeared to actually be followed, somewhat to a “t,” and was successfully implemented over the next 5 years despite implementation not being able to begin for approximately 2 years). It was also during this time, one of those most memorable moments occurred. Not long after the Dennis R Neill Equality Center opened, a group of teenagers and young adults began coming into the Center at 3:00 pm (opening time) nearly every day. The David Bohnett CyberCenter (this was in the time before smartphones) and the Sue Welch Great Hall were their hangouts. Over the course of a few weeks of saying ‘hi’, casual conversations in the Center or outside, and just simply welcoming this group of teenagers and young adults, one of the young men asked if he could tell me something. He’d been kicked out his home because he was gay. His new friends that were with him did not know 45 �he was gay, and he didn’t want to tell them - at least not yet. He didn’t want to risk not having any friends. He couldn’t risk it. These young people were all homeless. After this group of young adults had visited a few times, someone surprisingly asked me “why do you even talk to them?” My response was hopefully similar to: ”Yes, a 17 year old young man, who was kicked out of the only home he ever knew for being gay, and who is being forced to ‘come out’ again, is just one of the many reasons the Dennis R Neill Equality Center even exists. I recall telling that brave 17-year old young gay man, that he could ‘come out’ to his friends when he wants and/or when it’s best for him. It was his decision. In addition to utilizing the David Bohnett CyberCenter, he also managed to get a book or two from the Nancy & Joe McDonald Rainbow Library on coming out. I also knew he and his friends frequented Youth Services of Tulsa, just across the bridge, and had a level of safety. He shared his story with me the week before Pride, Unfortunately, I never saw him again due to circumstances. I’ve sometimes wondered: did he make it off the streets…did he come out again…is he alive? Tulsa Pride 2007 came and went. It was yet another successful event despite some hiccups which is normal. By Sunday, June 10th, Pride was over, remodeling and technology upgrades were finally getting closet to being complete, and the future seemed so bright. We had a plan and the time, the space, the financial resources, and the dedication to set that plan into action. I was excited for the future. My last day with Oklahomans for Equality and the Dennis R Neill Equality Center was Wednesday, June 13, 2007. When given the option to “gather my things and immediately leave OR make arrangements to get my things later and immediately leave, I chose the former. I will never forget that day. ----Addendum to the above addendum re: Tulsa Pride “Pride” is very important to me. I am quite proud of the work, growth, and success I and others accomplished over the years regarding “Tulsa Pride” celebrations from 1997 through 2007. Below is my response, in full, I posted on Facebook in June 2024 in response to the announcement OkEq posted on Facebook when it decided to move Tulsa Pride to another month instead of the internationally recognized Pride month of June - because of the weather. I am confident the “it’s too hot / the weather” was and is an excuse based in finances. Below is the response I wrote to OkEq (I do not recall the individual who wrote the post I responded to re: moving Tulsa Pride to a month outside the internationally 46 �recognized Pride Month of June. However, this information should be in OkEq Facebook records. ----Thank you for your response, explanation, and for your dedication of time and talents to Tulsa Pride. I know well the hours required to successfully plan, plan, plan, and execute a large-scale event such as Tulsa Pride are incredibly trying and time-consuming. My comments were and are not directed at you or other Tulsa Pride volunteers (added note of explanation: I called the planning and execution of Tulsa Pride 2023 incompetent – which it clearly was – and were directed at any OkEq staff involved with planning of that cluster__). Please accept my apologies as and if they were taken as such. I also ask you to read the “series” of pic comments (ran over Facebook character limits so did pics), aka a rather lengthy but hopeful explanation of the significance, importance, and necessity to hold major “Pride” such as the Tulsa Pride Parade and Festival events in June in their entirety. I volunteered with, led major components of the (then) week+ long celebration, and/or chaired Tulsa Pride for 11 years (1997-2007). I also served as President (1999-2000) and in multiple board positions of OkEq (1998-2003) during that time. I then was the ED of OkEq (2005-2007). During my time with OkEq, I was asked to join and was re-elected to the national board of LGBT Community Centers (now CenterLink). Although not directly with OkEq the last few years, I care deeply for the health and well-being of the LGBTQ+ community, as well as for the success of the mission of equality of OkEq. After all, my husband and I wrote the original (as it was recently changed) mission statement. The information relayed to myself pertained to the late timing of applications and therefore associated scheduling of city employees, etc. related to the lengthy permitting process. Prior to that news, serious financial issues had been discovered within OkEq, before the Equality Gala and Tulsa Pride 2023, and shared with select others. Staffing and leadership changes also occurred before or possibly during that time. The latter two happenings directly affected and currently affect (e.g. the resulting financial situation of OkEq clearly played a role in any decision to move Tulsa Pride) the organization as a whole. An organization, with a 1.2 million dollar budget and multiple (8 at that time?) employees, did not have 1 full-time employee dedicated to its largest program, Tulsa Pride? That is…interesting. Interesting in that years ago, even with only 2.5 employees, the .5 employee (who actually worked full-time) was dedicated to Tulsa Pride. 47 �The revelation that prior documentation or “blueprints” for Tulsa Pride from previous years were not available or found, is much more troubling in numerous ways. Immediate and recent past records, aka documents with vital information, planning directions with deadlines, protocols, etc. of all programs of OkEq, not to mention its largest program should be readily accessible via electronic and/or paper files in and on the property of OkEq. Historical documents and photos are (were?) kept on the property of OkEq in a specific room. It is completely astounding and disturbing, to say the least, that vital programming and historical documents were (are?) nowhere to found on the property of OkEq! I know serious financial issues currently facing OkEq are being addressed by individuals and groups of individuals. There appear to also be questions related to…additional operational and/or questionable behaviors within the organization…that must be further addressed if not yet investigated with all necessary remedial actions taken. [Editor’s note – as our small group of volunteers and part-time archivist continue to organize the history project materials and information from digital storage platforms, many of the past pride materials are being located and organized.] All that being said…Congratulations to you and your team for the jobs done to accomplish much while dealing with the extreme and unique circumstances of Tulsa Pride 2023. “Pride” started as a riot in June 1969. What is internationally recognized as a defining moment – the visible beginning of the fight for LGBTQ+ equality – began on June 28, 1969. The Stonewall Riots, aka “Stonewall” demonstrated the strength and conviction of our community through visibility and direct actions. Those actions of courage and bravery, during the hot Summer days and nights of June, galvanized the LGBTQ+ community in the continuing fight for equality. The NYC site of those important events is now the “Stonewall National Monument,” declared as such in 2016. “Stonewall” was a milestone – it is the WHEN and WHY the LGBTQ+ community publicly declared our freedom and equality! Tulsa Pride began as a picnic in June 1982. A celebration of the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, only 13 years after June 1969, was a milestone for our community. The celebrations growth, through increasing attendance, visibility, and organization, bought the 1st Tulsa Pride Parade to the streets of Tulsa on June 12, 1999 (25 years ago next week btw). That milestone for our community fulfilled a 17 year quest to march the streets of Tulsa for LGBTQ+ equality. Since that first Picnic in 1982, to that first Pride Picnic in 1999, to the present day celebration, Tulsa Pride has grown and evolved from a picnic near the edge of town to a large-scale event in Downtown Tulsa. It is one of the many significant accomplishments of the Tulsa LGBTQ+ community during the past 44 years (OkEq was founded in 1980). 48 �During that time period, the LGBTQ+ community also faced many obstacles. The HIV/AIDS crisis that began circa 1981, killing and affecting many in our community, was and is a significant health obstacle. I’ve lost multiple friends to HIV/AIDS. I know others currently living with HIV/AIDS and other serious health concerns. I have extended family members experiencing, or that have experienced Huntingtons, Down Syndrome, Parkinson’s, Cancer, and more. I also have immediate family members living with Cancer, Chromosonal issues, and now ALS. I have educated myself on these various health issues. I do so through talking with, sitting with, volunteering in support of, reading up on, and caring for my friends, community, and family. Do not ever imply I do not care for the health and wellbeing of my friends, my family, or the LGBTQ+ community – EVER! The health of everyone is always a major concern for all past and present organizers of any event or celebration. Juneteenth, 4th of July celebrations, the MLK Jr. Parade, and Tulsa Pride are a few of the major public events held in Tulsa. Those celebrations, and others not listed, happen during months that can extreme and unique weather conditions. Those conditions can, have, and will cause health concerns. Organizers of those events, can, have, and successfully do address health concerns. OkEq has done and easily can do the same with innovative, inclusive, and exciting solutions. OkEq can also do all that while preserving the vital reason that WHEN these events happened are because WHY these events happen! We celebrate Juneteenth on June 19th, or near that day, every year to commemorate the last day of slavery – when freedom was delivered. We celebrate our country’s Independence Day every year on July 4th to commemorate the day we, as a country, declared out freedom. We celebrate Martin Luther King Jr every year on the 3rd Monday in January to commemorate his leadership in the Civil Rights Movement while declaring “We Shall Overcome…” We celebrate Pride every year during the month of June to commemorate the days in June 1969 when LGBTQ+ community members visibly fought back, declaring our freedom and equality! It is seriously doubtful organizers of the above events, and more not named, will ever move their associated events to a different season for any reason. Why? Most often, WHEN we have an important event is tied into WHY that event happens. Tulsa Pride should return to June. Tulsa Pride exists to: 1) Commemorate the beginning of the LGBTQ+ community of visibly fighting for our freedom and equality, 2) Educate the 49 �general public about our community and work for equality, and 3) Celebrate our entire community and the progress made for equality since June 1969. Tulsa Pride must return to June to fulfill the mission of OkEq. Working for Equaltiy for the LGBTQ+ community WAS at the core of the mission of Oklahomans for Equality (OkEq). Moving Tulsa Pride outside the month of June, 1) eliminates the actual WHEN and WHY Pride even happens, 2) Eliminates visibility during the nationally recognized (for the time being) Pride Month, and 3) Eliminates the best opportunity to actually work for equality. We, the LGBTQ+ community, face the real threat of dark days and years in the not-toodistant future. The multiple actions, laws, and decisions across our nation targeting our community are real and strengthening. Legal discrimination, the loss of marriage-equality, and worse actions are definite possibilities facing our community (refer 2024 Elections). In June 1969, the LGBTQ+ community took to the streets fighting back against persecutors. The LGBTQ+ community has faced and addressed serious health issues, such as HIV/AIDS to the benefit of our community and general public. The LGBTQ+ community continues to fight for equality over the years, facing attacks, discrimination, and yes, killings. The LGBTQ+ community has made progress in the fight for equality. The stage is being set to challenge and reverse the LGBTQ+ community’s progress. The stage is being set to remove our civil rights, marriage equality, and much more. When the LGBTQ+ community faces the coming serious challenges to our civil rights and equality – will we take to the streets to fight for our equality, to fight for our future, and to possibly fight for our lives? Or will the LGBTQ+ community only fight for our and future generations equality, civil rights, or lives – if the WHEN is convenient and the WHY is comfort? Happy Pride (and Happy 25th Anniversary to the Tulsa Pride Parade on June 12, 2024)! 50 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Greg Gatewood Interview Description An account of the resource In this engaging conversation, Greg Gatewood shares his life story, beginning with his upbringing in rural Wyandotte, Oklahoma. He reflects on his childhood experiences, including his education at Oklahoma State University, where he pursued architecture. Greg discusses the close-knit community of his small school, his involvement in sports, and his early interests in agriculture through the Future Farmers of America (FFA). He also touches on his family dynamics, highlighting the influence of his parents and siblings on his formative years.<br />As the conversation progresses, Greg opens up about his journey of self-discovery regarding his sexual orientation, coming out as a gay man during his time at OSU in the mid-1980s. He recounts the challenges he faced growing up in a religious family and the societal pressures of the time. Greg's narrative shifts to his involvement in the LGBTQ community in Tulsa, detailing his volunteer work at the Tulsa Gay Community Center and his role in organizing Pride events. His reflections provide insight into the evolution of LGBTQ rights and visibility in Oklahoma, showcasing both personal and communal growth over the years. In this episode, the speakers reflect on their experiences and pivotal moments in the LGBTQ+ community, particularly focusing on the establishment and evolution of the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, and Community Center. They recount a poignant story from November 2000, when a man drove all night to seek refuge and support at the center after coming out to his wife. This encounter highlights the center's role as a safe haven and resource for individuals in crisis. The conversation also delves into the personal connections formed within the community, including the speakers' own relationship and their involvement in various initiatives, such as the Pyramid Project and Pride events, which aimed to foster inclusivity and support for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa.<br />As the discussion progresses, the speakers share their memories of significant events, including the impact of Matthew Shepard's death on the community and the importance of activism in raising awareness. They reflect on their roles in organizing Pride events and the challenges faced in advocating for LGBTQ+ rights. The episode concludes with a sense of nostalgia and gratitude for the friendships and connections made through their work, emphasizing the ongoing journey toward equality and acceptance. Subject The topic of the resource Greg Gatewood Oral History Project Interview from January 15, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Greg Gatewood, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 15, 2026 2026 activism architecture coming out Coming Out Day community Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill family Gay Rights Greg Gatewood interview Matthew Shepard OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project OSU Pride pride Parade Pride Parade and festival rural transcript Tulsa Community Center Tulsa Gay Community Services Center video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/f72c2df42fc84be737c24550dce17aec.mp4 d517224038d8563bc6f524eb2753e69d https://history.okeq.org/files/original/9c5aa6299e0ece9650f1789f237c463b.pdf fc9870b8c20fb40b7478d0f28e9f551a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with John Madigan Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: January 13, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, January 25, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About John Madigan Summary This conversation with John Madigan explores his life journey from a small mining town in Canada to becoming an influential figure in the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. John shares his experiences growing up on a farm, his transition into the oil and gas industry, and his eventual involvement in various LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers. He reflects on the intersection of faith and sexuality, the challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of advocacy and inclusion for older adults. John's insights provide a rich narrative of resilience, community, and the ongoing fight for equality. Takeaways 2  John was born in a small mining town in Canada.  He grew up on a farm with 12 siblings.  Education was a significant part of his early life.  John transitioned to the oil and gas industry in the 1960s.  He moved to Tulsa in 1990 and became involved in the local community.  John identifies as a gay man and became aware of his sexuality in adolescence.  He has maintained his Catholic faith throughout his life. � John has been actively involved in LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers.  He emphasizes the importance of community and advocacy for older LGBTQ+ adults.  John believes in the need for ongoing activism to protect LGBTQ+ rights. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 02:47 Growing Up on the Farm 06:00 Education and Early Career 09:00 Transition to the Oil and Gas Industry 12:02 Life in Tulsa and Community Engagement 15:02 Understanding Sexual Identity 18:02 Faith and Sexuality 20:55 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Organizations 23:48 The Formation of Prime Timers 26:57 Community Building and Advocacy 30:08 Challenges and Triumphs in the LGBTQ+ Community 33:09 Reflections on Aging and Inclusion 36:01 Future of LGBTQ+ Advocacy 38:59 Final Thoughts and Legacy John Madigan Interview Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon. We are here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. And we have an interview with John Madigan. John, for archival purposes, tell us your full name, your date of birth, and your physical address. John Madigan: John T. Madigan. 04-24-45, XXXXX, Tulsa. 3 �Toby Jenkins: All right. So we're going to jump right in. John, where were you born? John Madigan: Luscar, Alberta, in Canada. Toby Jenkins: In Canada. So you're from Canada. Is that a big city, small city, little town, hole in the wall? What is it? John Madigan: Well, back in the early 40s, it was a mining town. Today, it's a, what do you want to say? It's got a signpost to say where it was. Toby Jenkins: So you were born there in Canada. And at that time, so 1945, it would have been a mining town. What would the population have been? John Madigan: 400 or 500 people. They're just miners. Toby Jenkins: So it was still just a small town. And did your father work in the mine? John Madigan: Yes. That was his military duty. Toby Jenkins: OK. He was required to do it, or it was his assignment. Was he assigned there for security or for just a? John Madigan: He worked in it. Toby Jenkins: OK. And did your mother work outside the home? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings do you have? John Madigan: 12. Toby Jenkins: 12. And this would have been in 1945 in Canada. And your father was able to support the family with the money he made at the mine? John Madigan: Well, that lasted only after the war was over. Then we moved back to Saskatchewan where he was raised to his parents' homestead. Toby Jenkins: So they had a farm? John Madigan: His parents moved from Ontario to Saskatchewan in 1905 when the three provinces were divided up. And so they had to have people to populate it. So it was just like Oklahoma. You had a homestead. Toby Jenkins: OK. And so you kind of grew up on a farm then? Toby Jenkins: How old were you when you moved back to Saskatchewan? 4 �John Madigan: About a year old. Toby Jenkins: Oh, so you were just a toddler. Where are you in the birth order of 12 kids? John Madigan: At the top. Toby Jenkins: You're the oldest? John Madigan: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, that's incredible. There was a lot of pressure on you. Now, with 12 children, what was their religious affiliation? John Madigan: They were Roman Catholic. Toby Jenkins: Roman Catholic. That explains the 12 children. So you lived there, and you lived on what would have been your grandparents' homestead. So did you farm? John Madigan: When in 46, 47, we moved to my uncle's farm. And then he moved back to Ontario. And so we had the farm until 2018. Everybody quit farming. Toby Jenkins: What kind of did y'all raise? Crops, cattle, sheep, goats? John Madigan: No goats. No, it was wheat farming. And we had cows on the side for eating purposes. Toby Jenkins: Was there a little school in this little town that y'all went back to? John Madigan: Yeah, we had two. It was called Naomi. It was three miles from the house. And then when we started to go to school, we walked or rode the horse. We didn't get to drive the buggy until we were eight, nine years old. Toby Jenkins: No school bus? John Madigan: School bus? We're lucky we had a car. Toby Jenkins: So you had to go three miles to school. Now was that a Canadian public school, or was that a private Catholic school? John Madigan: Public school. Toby Jenkins: And is that where you graduated from high school? John Madigan: No, that was my elementary. And then they closed it and they consolidated the school district. So we had to move to town to go to school. That's when we found out there was a school bus that worked. 5 �Toby Jenkins: And what was the town, the bigger city? John Madigan: Ceylon Toby Jenkins: And so they had a high school, a public high school. John Madigan: It went from first to twelfth grade. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what year you graduated from high school? John Madigan: 1964. Toby Jenkins: 1964. How many were in your graduating class? John Madigan: Twelve. Toby Jenkins: Twelve. Wow. Well, that sounds so wonderful. So you were twelve years old. You graduated from a class of twelve, my apologies. And when you finished high school, you had all of these younger siblings. What was your plan? Do you remember what your plan was as a senior in high school? What you kind of dreamed. Did you dream you were going to farm? Or did you dream you were going to stay there? No. John Madigan: No. Farming was not my forte. I was not going to make that as a career and I didn't. Toby Jenkins: So what did you do right after high school? John Madigan: So after high school, then did odd jobs. And then I got a summer job with the highway department. John Madigan: The, what do you want to call it? District office was there in town. Toby Jenkins: So you did that, but you still were staying at home in that area. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And still helping with your family. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: When did you finally leave there? John Madigan: Then that winter I got a job with the company doing oil and gas exploration from here in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: In 1965? John Madigan: It's about 67. 6 �Toby Jenkins: 67. Okay. So you're a Canadian farm boy and you went from there to Tulsa, Oklahoma. John Madigan: Well, I spent the winter in Canada doing exploration. And then the next spring he moved us down here to Kansas. That was the first job in exploration down here. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did you have to have a visa, a work permit? John Madigan: Yeah, I had a work visa. Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been in the 60s. Were you excited about coming to work in the U.S.? John Madigan: Yes, it was a good job. Toby Jenkins: You were just glad to get off the farm. John Madigan: That was something to do. Toby Jenkins: And so you came to the middle of the country and you said you started out in Kansas. And what exactly were you doing in the oil and gas? Were you a roughneck? John Madigan: No. No, it was exploration. We used gravity for our readings. It's similar to seismic, where they drilled holes and used dynamite for their energy. We had a machine that was gravity. It would read the pull of gravity. It changed at every spot that we were in. Toby Jenkins: So eventually, you said you started out in Kansas. Then eventually they moved you to Tulsa? John Madigan: Well, we went from Kansas. That year we went to Iowa. Then from Iowa we went to Nevada. Spent over about a year in Nevada. And then we went to Utah, to north of Salt Lake, Ogden. And worked out on the Salt Lake flat. And then we moved back to Kansas, to Goodland. And then from there, went back to Williston, North Dakota. And then we moved down to San Antonio, Texas in July, so you know what the temperature was there, when the humidity and the temperature were the same. Toby Jenkins: But I would have thought you would have been grateful to get out in North Dakota in the summer. John Madigan: That was coming summer. The fun of job, working exploration, was we worked in the summer in the south and worked in the winter in the north. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Isn't that the way it always is? So while you're bouncing around all over the midsection of America in the oil and gas industry, were you staying in contact with your family? I mean, were you sending money home? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: But you were writing them letters, talking to them. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Your siblings, did you make trips home during the holidays? John Madigan: Every once in a while, yeah. We had vacation time. Toby Jenkins: When did you eventually land in Tulsa? What year would that have been? John Madigan: I came to Tulsa to stay in 1990, in January. Toby Jenkins: So all of those years, would they have you visit Tulsa for companyrelated issues? John Madigan: Yeah, the only time coming to town was just between jobs, change equipment or something like that. Toby Jenkins: And so what was your thoughts of Tulsa in those days when you first were exposed to it? Because that would have been in the days we were the oil capital of the world. John Madigan: Yeah, that was, well, I didn't stay in very long, but it was a nice city, liked it. That's why I come back. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and do you remember what the company was you worked with, what the name of the company was? John Madigan: They started out as E.V. McCollum & Company. And then when the owner finally, to decide, when he was in his 80s, to retire, it was called Gravimetrics. And we had an office down on South Main, just across the street from Texaco building. Dennis, you'd know where the Texaco building was. Toby Jenkins: All right, so about what age was it you finally moved to Tulsa, officially, permanently? John Madigan: I guess that's 90, that's 35 years ago. You take that from 80, I'm about 50. 8 �Toby Jenkins: You were in your 40s, late 40s. Okay, so all of this time you're here, did you become a U.S. citizen, or did you maintain your Canadian citizenship? John Madigan: Yeah, I still got my Canadian citizenship. I couldn't give it up, I couldn't afford to. Toby Jenkins: Right, so during this time you would have been a young adult man. Did you ever marry? Did you ever have children? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you were a farm boy, and you landed this job, and it took you all over the country. How do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? John Madigan: Gay. Toby Jenkins: So you consider yourself a gay man. When did you begin to be aware that you were different than other people, different than other farm boys? Speaker 3: 13. Toby Jenkins: So you began to be aware of some differences when you were an adolescent. And when you finally get out of Canada, and you're traveling with this oil and gas company, was this an identity or sexual orientation? You became more aware of it, more confident that that's? John Madigan: Oh yeah, because you met different people in different towns. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so when you would travel to these towns, would there be places to meet other men who were like yourself? John Madigan: Well, there could be, but I wasn't pursuing that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you knew that, by then you knew that you... John Madigan: Oh yeah, because you knew. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so when you came to Tulsa, did you meet any other gay people here in Tulsa? John Madigan: Well, that's when I, by 95, that's when I joined Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but that would have been a couple of years after you had arrived. What about when you first arrived in Tulsa? John Madigan: Oh, yeah, we got to know a friend that, he was a Prime Timer too, and he was working at the hotel that I was staying over in West Tulsa. 9 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, do you remember who that was? Was that just a friend, or was that a boyfriend? John Madigan: No, we got to know each other, and his name was Jim Young. Toby Jenkins: Jim Young, okay, very good. Do you remember, when you first moved here, did you go to the gay bars here in Tulsa? Did you find them? John Madigan: I knew of them, but I didn't go to them. Toby Jenkins: Was it because that wasn't your thing, or you were still, you weren't out to people at work? I mean, what was the motivation for kind of segregating yourself from the community? John Madigan: No, it was just not that, I wasn't a bar person. I went to bars when I was working, you know, friends and co-workers. When I was working in different towns, I went to bars, but it was not very often. Toby Jenkins: So, you met this guy, and did he then kind of introduce you to other gay men, the bigger community? John Madigan: No, the conversation got around to it, you know. And he knew people here in Tulsa, because he moved from Eufaula up to Tulsa get away from the kinfolk. Toby Jenkins: Now, you had never married, and you were staying in contact with your family. Did you ever have a discussion with your family that you identified as gay, or did they ever ask? John Madigan: They didn't ask, and so I just kept things quiet. So, I'm sure they, you know, we just don't speak about it. A couple of my brothers, I am sure they're gay. Toby Jenkins: So, we all just, it's just not a conversation. Now, when you were addressing this, was there, did you have any kind of internal turmoil? I mean, did you feel like there was something wrong with you being this way, and so you felt like you needed to date women, or you needed to make everybody think you were straight? John Madigan: No, I just didn't. It was not a topic of discussion, even though I had coworkers that voiced their hetero feelings. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, talking about women all the time. John Madigan: And about gays. You know, they'd run into them in their lifetime, and well, we got talking about it, and they'd run them down, and I'd just cut them off at the knees and say, this is not appropriate to the job. 10 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, so what about, you were born into a Catholic family. Was there, and now, are you still a practicing Catholic? John Madigan: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, still identifies Roman Catholic, and where do you attend services? John Madigan: Christ the King, Cherry Street. Toby Jenkins: Was there ever a time where your faith and your sexuality, there was a struggle, or did you come to a resolution? Did you seek out pastoral counseling? John Madigan: No, not really. But I knew that that was not the norm of the traditional religious in the church. Yeah. But just...I had people that had conflicts with their religion and voiced it, you know, but that's just part of the tradition, you know, that was not in, so yeah, you deal with it. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of, um, like you were being attacked or you were being questioned at your church? Did they want to know why you weren't married, or, John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you never had a priest or a religious leader who tried to reassure you that you were welcome at the church and maybe talk about that? John Madigan: I never felt unwelcome at any church that I went to. Toby Jenkins: Were there other LGBTQ people in your congregation that you knew? John Madigan: Oh, heck yes, you know them. Toby Jenkins: So, uh, just, just out of curiosity, as an 80 year old Catholic Canadian, what did you think when our previous Pope began to really make waves and say some pretty unexpected things affirming and loving towards LGBTQ people, specifically when he said priests could, um, uh, say a prayer at, uh, at same sex, uh, marriage ceremony, they, you couldn't do the ceremony, but they could, I guess, bless it. John Madigan: Bless it, yeah. Toby Jenkins: What was, what was your thoughts when that happened? John Madigan: That was, well, the, uh, this is the recognition by the church that we're children of God. There's no discrimination. It's only humans discriminate against. We'll always have homophobes. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Were you surprised that the Pope came out so strongly, supportingly, and lovingly of LGBTQ people? No. John Madigan: No. It was, it was in the, kind of in the flow. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: It was, the church has, has to, uh, adjust to the society. Toby Jenkins: So the, the present Pope, who's an American Pope, um, do you feel like he's going to continue the work of the previous Pope of inclusion and moving the church towards a more welcoming faith community? John Madigan: Well, they're going to be more open about it. It was not saying that the church was not welcoming to you. They just didn't say anything about it. Toby Jenkins: Very interesting. Anything else you want to say about faith and sexuality or anything about that before? John Madigan: You know, since we’ve worked for the last 40 years or more, we made our voice, our presence known. We live in this country. We're a part of everything. Toby Jenkins: Ok. So it's, um, you're here, you know that you're a gay man, you're in Tulsa, Oklahoma, you've met this one friend, um, and, uh, you didn't really, from what you're told us, you didn't really connect, you know, with the clubs, the bars. Um, were you aware of TOHR, uh, and it's different names, what we call Oklahomans for Equality today? John Madigan: And, uh, I didn't, hmm, may have heard about it, but didn't, you know, make any concerted connection to it until after I, that both of us joined Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: And then, and then, then right there you had 40 gay people right in front of you, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So, uh, did, in those, like in the early 90s when it was forming, did y'all meet at the community center? Um, do you remember? John Madigan: We met at the, there was a meeting room at, um, Harvard where the, uh, TOHR had their call center. Toby Jenkins: And their and their HIV testing, yeah. John Madigan: No, it didn't have that, it was, uh, you know, just the telephone. You called in and. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, the helpline. John Madigan: Yeah, the helpline, that's right, and because a couple of the, uh, Prime Timers were working there. Toby Jenkins: Were volunteering on it. And so they would meet there in the meeting room. John Madigan: Yeah, they had a meeting room there. Toby Jenkins: Ok. So, you, you met this friend, and did he tell you about Prime Timers, or were y'all a part of Prime Timers forming? John Madigan: One of his friends that he knew, uh, mentioned it, and, uh. And I think Jim knew about Wesley, which was the founder. Toby Jenkins: Wesley, do you remember his last name? John Madigan Bauer. Toby Jenkins: Bauer, okay. Toby Jenkins: So Wesley had formed a chapter of Prime Timers. For our viewers, please tell us what Prime Timers is, and what it means, and what its mission. John Madigan: Okay. Prime Timers started in Boston. He was a professor, and he wanted to have a group of men of like persuasion for older guys to have a place to go and meet and greet, have fellowship and things. He started the organization in 1983. In 1993, Wesley and Omer started Tulsa Area Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So it was a chapter of a national affiliate. And so did they have monthly meetings, monthly discussion groups? John Madigan: We had a monthly meeting, and we had activities during the month. Toby Jenkins: What were you doing to be connected to the national group? Because I guess by then it probably had chapters all over the country, didn't it? John Madigan: Oh, yeah. Even off in other countries. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, around the world. My awareness of it is, to me, it seems to be having a resurgence. Do you think that's because there's more older men now that we're seeing? Our LGBTQ community, we're seeing a larger group of older, middleaged retired men? 13 �John Madigan: Oh, yes. It's more acceptable and open, and there's less conflict and stigma in this. And then the mission of the organization was to have something for older men to do, meet others. Toby Jenkins: And so it was just for men? John Madigan: Yes, it is just a men's group. Toby Jenkins: How did you handle, if you had an individual who identified as a female person, they wanted to be a part of the group, how did you handle that? John Madigan: Just told them away. When we were at the meeting down at Peoria... Toby Jenkins: On the Brookside location. John Madigan: On the Brookside location, we had just one lady come up and says, can we join Prime Timers? And I says, no, it's a men's only organization. And she says, well, could we start one? I says, yeah, you can start a girls' Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: And there is a similar organization. I think it's changed its name a couple of times, but it is for older women who identify as lesbian or bisexual. How did you handle individuals who might have been transgender? John Madigan: Well, we had a member that transed while she was a member. And after she transed, then she was out of the group. We didn't ostracize her. She would come to the all activities. Toby Jenkins: So as she transitioned, came into the group identifying as male and transitioned to a female person. And so once she transitioned, she left the group. John Madigan: Yeah, well, she was identifying as female. Toby Jenkins: So that would have been the 90s and you got involved in it. What else would you like to say about Prime Timers? John Madigan: It's a great organization for gay men. Toby Jenkins: Bisexual men. John Madigan: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you have, I know you'll have lots of brunches and lunches and you go to the movies and I know several of you travel to the National Gathering every year. You have a monthly meeting here at the Center. You have big holiday parties. I went to one of your recent holiday parties. I don't know how, there's probably 60 men in that 14 �house. And it was a blast and I got hand warmers in the gift exchange. I was tickled to death. Toby Jenkins: So Prime Timers, while it's its own separate individual 501c3 and its own program for gay and bisexual men, you had said that you were meeting, you were meeting at the Center. You talked about how the Harvard location, the Brookside location, and then I can, I think the first time I was exposed to you was when we were 21st and Memorial in the meeting room downstairs, which was not super accessible for people who had, people who had difficulty going up and down. When did you begin to get more involved with the organization? I mean, originally it was called Oklahomans for Human Rights and it became Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then eventually Oklahomans for Equality. John Madigan: I got into TOHR, oh I guess 97, 98, and just since I worked at nights and Tuesdays was usually my day off. So I'd go down to the Center on Memorial and sit at the meeting. Toby Jenkins: Okay. You would volunteer? John Madigan: No, just got interested. Toby Jenkins: Now were you ever involved in PFLAG with Nancy and Joe McDonald? John Madigan: Oh yes. Got connected at Fellowship [Congregational Christian Church] when they were having meetings there. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: Nancy. TOHR. Then after that, then they got to, they got started with the Pyramid Project and just one day I got roped in by Sue and Marcy. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what was the, if you, for our viewers, tell us what the Pyramid Project was? John Madigan: The Pyramid Project was set up for, for the organization to find a permanent building. So it's in 2004, was it then? Then we finally bought the building. Toby Jenkins: Why did we need a permanent building? John Madigan: Well, because our landlords weren't very good. Toby Jenkins: Wouldn't let us fly a rainbow flag over the building. So you helped with that project? John Madigan: Yes 15 �Toby Jenkins: So were you here that day we bought the building and raised the flag and we had the bagpiper here. What were your thoughts that day after y'all spent how many years? John Madigan: I guess about eight years, you know, convincing the gay community in Tulsa that we got the dirt. Back then we always had to say, well you don't have any dirt so we won't give you any money. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so by dirt you mean geographical possession of a piece of property. John Madigan: Yeah, and so then when we did, we signed the deed on this building, then we come up and says, okay now, we got the dirt. We want your money. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and they come across. Toby Jenkins: We all work together. Do you, so you were involved in Prime Timers and you were involved in this organization's formation and supporting the purchase of a permanent building. Did you participate in any of the renovation days that we would have? John Madigan: Oh yeah, When I had days off. John Madigan: when, of course, mornings was... Okay, gay people don't start before nine o'clock. So... Toby Jenkins: So, I want to, I don't want to miss it. Is there anything during that time, anything else that stands out in your mind, like pride festivals? Did Prime Timers participate in the pride festivals and the pride parades? John Madigan: Oh, yes. That was our community exposure. Toby Jenkins: That's what people found out about you. So we moved into this building and then y'all started having your monthly meetings here. Do you remember when they, do you remember when they were going to lift the ban on gays in the military? And were you a part of helping me collect names for our wall of honor? John Madigan: Yes, it is right over there. Toby Jenkins: And many of those were Prime Timers, weren't they? John Madigan: Yes Toby Jenkins: And we've lost many of them. John Madigan: Like most of them. 16 �Toby Jenkins: Most of them on the military wall, our wall of honor, which we dedicated that whenever the ban was lifted. And so, do you remember anything you want to say about that and what that experience was like? John Madigan: Well, that was a nice gesture by the organization to honor those people that served for freedom in this country. Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Even though they had to keep their mouth shut, otherwise they would have been kicked out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So when did there begin to be a stronger emphasis on providing programming for older adults? When did that really take off? John Madigan: I guess about 2009, 10, when you run into the SAGE organization. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Serena Worthington. John Madigan: Yeah, Serena. Toby Jenkins: I heard her speak at Creating Change in Chicago, and it's like, do you remember me coming back and telling you, John, we're going to start a SAGE program? John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Because this is what everybody does. And can you tell me about those first few months, maybe that first year, until we finally got it right? John Madigan: Well, it was just like any gay group. It was about older adults and gay people in this country. In this town, didn't. There was nothing for seniors. That what it is all about? It took a lot of voicing and twisting arms. We're not going to kill you just because you're old. Toby Jenkins: So I think you might remember that first year, you and I would create programs. We would have the Area Aging on Aging come. We would have funeral homes, nursing homes come, and nobody would show up. John Madigan: Some still don't today sometimes. Toby Jenkins: Because we just thought we needed to provide programming agerelated. Well, that was a mistake, wasn't it? John Madigan: Well, it was not what they were thinking. Toby Jenkins: Right. 17 �John Madigan: Process. When we brought them there, and the whole intent was just to have those organizations and how they treated us as senior gay and lesbian people in their entities. Now, how were you gonna be treated after you died when you went to a funeral home? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Or you went to a senior center? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Were you gonna be put in the back room way down in the hall and they show up every couple of days for you because you're gay? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So it had an advocacy element of it where while we were networking with these senior serving agencies, we were trying to make them more inclusive. John Madigan: Well, and that's what SAGE was all about. Toby Jenkins: Right. So what was it? We finally did that everybody got with it and they decided they wanted to be a part of it. John Madigan: You convinced Serena to have a gay conference here. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, we hosted. John Madigan: And hosted it. And they finally, oh, okay, that's something cool. Toby Jenkins: So you remember how we began to shift our attention from making them aware of resources to social activity like trips and pool parties and luncheons and entertainment, movie days and book story, book reviews. That's when we really began to see it take off and grow. John Madigan: Oh, yeah, because we did other things then just sit around and talk. Toby Jenkins: Talk about old stuff. John Madigan: Well, about each other. And did things that were interesting to people. Toby Jenkins: And more social. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Creating social opportunity. John Madigan: Yeah. 18 �Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: And the trips went to places where the people that are born, raised and lived and worked in this county had never been there. Never been, oh, I've never been here in all my life. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Museums. John Madigan: Like going down to Fort Gibson. Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: It's been here before the state was a state. Toby Jenkins: Um, yeah, we, activities began to be, in those days we used to have to rent vehicles and eventually we ended up with the equality van. And while we were traveling all over the country going to these things, it was branded so that other people knew about us and how to find us. John Madigan: Well, you couldn't miss it, the advertising name on the vehicle. Toby Jenkins: How did people find SAGE when we started that chapter? Cause we had lots of interesting, do you remember any of the stories about how people just showed up? John Madigan: No, they just showed up and just people come in and say, well, well, first it was something for the senior group and other than, it was geared to them and they felt comfortable. Yeah, the age group was right. Toby Jenkins: What about you? I know you were involved in the veterans wall. Also, our former director, Greg Gatewood, who had been the former director, he used to have an event on Thanksgiving day for older adults who were by themselves. And so I felt like we need to keep that going. Do you remember the days when we finally decided we wanted to create a Thanksgiving dinner here? So people started out as a thing for older adults who were by themselves and then it... John Madigan: Become a community meal. That was giving thanks for us. We had some place to go to and we had a community that you could relate to. Toby Jenkins: And how many people would come to those meals? John Madigan: Couple of hundred. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and who would help provide the food? 19 �John Madigan: The allied churches. Oh, they'd fight each other trying to see who was going to get there. Toby Jenkins: Over who was bringing green beans or… John Madigan: Or cookies or cake. Toby Jenkins: But that was a huge project, wasn't it? John Madigan: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: And then we'd prepare the meals for people who couldn't come so they could have these takeaway meals which would be older adults who were shut in and couldn't. So, you've kind of been involved in so many facets of the community. And so, 80 years old, you look marvelous. I know multiple times you've traveled with the organization to conferences, trying to remember all the ones you went to, because every time we went to Creating Change, I would drag you out and make, I know your favorite one must have been when we took 56 people on a bus to Washington, D.C. John Madigan: Well, that was, you're not gonna forget that trip. Toby Jenkins: No, well, especially getting trapped in the Appalachian Mountains, in the fog, and we had to get out and walk through the mountains to keep the bus, oh, gosh, yeah, that was a… John Madigan: And then when we got there, the city shut down. Toby Jenkins: It was in the middle of the government shutdown under Trump, his original residency, and we marched, didn't we, against Trump and his attack on the LGBT community in his first, first term. So, you're 80 years old. And tell me your thoughts about, your thoughts for the future and your suggestions on what might help us improve to make sure everybody's included. John Madigan: Well, right now, in this day and age, is senior mobility. We have seniors, gay and lesbian seniors, at home that would like to come down here, but can't, don't have any availability to transportation. We had a lady, senior, ask us about coming to the OKEQ Senior Group, but she needed transportation. So, you gotta, that way you gotta have somebody to go pick her up, and her, him, didn't know which one it was, but anyway. Toby Jenkins: Would it be possible to work with non-profit organization, or non-profit or governmental transportation modules to be able to figure out a way to get them here? 20 �John Madigan: Well, yeah, there are other organizations in town that have transportation for their groups, but they don't have, can they fit in that, or do they belong to that? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Life Senior Services, or the VA? Toby Jenkins: Possibly, y'all could partner with Tulsa, I forget what it's called, the bus system here has... John Madigan: The Lift. Toby Jenkins: The Lift. John Madigan: But then they, there they have to reserve the pickup time, two, three days out. Toby Jenkins: But that could be something that could be coordinated. John Madigan: Could be, yeah. Toby Jenkins: What else do you think is, when you're thinking of, you're youthful, 80 years old, you're eight decades on Planet Earth, what, do you have concerns about our present situations? Just curious, because this won't happen very often, we've got a reallife Canadian across the table from us, how does it make you feel whenever our present White House leadership is so combative and adversarial with Canada, our nearest neighbor? John Madigan: Our present President is, he's an opportunist and an agitator. He loves poke you on the ribs about things, and it's the things that are done behind the scenes. With the LGBT community, we got to be on guard 25-8 to keep what we got, because it'll go out the window in a flash. Most LGBT people think we got it made. Nah, the kids don't have a clue where we started. That's where the history should start. History 101 to the 20-year-olds, what it was like in 1980. Dennis Neill: This being a history project, this is John with Tay and others, when we drop boxes off for them to help support the resurgence of the history project. So maybe ask him a few questions about his experience with that. Toby Jenkins: Dennis has a picture of you and Tay and some other people in there. What year would that have been? 21 �Dennis Neill: I would say, John, probably around 2002 was when Laura and I relaunched the history project. And I was dropping boxes off. Would that be at Tay's house? John Madigan: Yeah, that's Tay Clare”s house. Dennis Neill: There's a few more pictures with a few more people in it. Toby Jenkins: So what we were talking about is all the different things you've been involved in. So you would have been right there. We got the pictures to prove it. As they say, a photo, it didn't happen. Well, there it happened. And we got you... John Madigan: This group of people here that started this were trying to keep it going. A bunch of women. And most of these women went to MCC. And it was still going back then. Toby Jenkins: Metropolitan Community Church. John Madigan: And it was kind of an outreach for them, too. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been when Dennis was a young man. So that would have been 20... John Madigan: When we were all pups. Toby Jenkins: It would be about 2002. And Dr. Laura Belmonte, who would have been our board president at that time, professor at OSU. And you look like you were involved in relaunching, as Dennis and John, his partner John and Laura Belmonte, wanted to relaunch the history archives and the history project. So that's what this picture is. John Madigan: Yeah, they were going through photos that people had for... Going back for 30 years by that time. Toby Jenkins: I loved what you said. We have our archivist, Amanda. I felt like his last line when he said... We've got Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality, and Amanda Thompson, our archivist. I felt like if you're going to have a promotional, John Madigan's line, History 101, I felt like that could have sold why this, what we're doing, is so critical. Anything else, John, as we come to the end of this, our time together, anything else you would want to say? John Madigan: We have to fight. Keep it going. They'll run us down. That's what the young people have to do. 22 �Toby Jenkins: All right. Well, thank you so much. That concludes our interview with John Madigan here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on January the 13th, 2026, at his youthful 80 years old. Addendum: Photos of volunteers at Tay Clare’s house sorting OkEq archival materials, circa 200 2. 23 �24 �25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] John Madigan Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins on January 13, 2026. John explores his life journey from a small mining town in Canada to becoming an influential member in the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. John shares his experiences growing up on a farm, his transition into the oil and gas industry, and his eventual involvement in various LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers and OkEq Seniors. He reflects on the intersection of faith and sexuality, the challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of advocacy and inclusion for older adults. John's insights provide a rich narrative of resilience, community, and the ongoing fight for equality. Subject The topic of the resource John Madigan Oral History Project Interview from January 13, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Madigan, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 13, 2026 2026 interview John Madigan OKEQ Oral History Project OKEQ Seniors oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Prime Timers Primetimers Toby Jenkins transcript video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/023559720fd72ce52b47697fd079f211.JPG 4dfd0f8858284e1c50788f51c9ec4b9f https://history.okeq.org/files/original/b5fde90b2684c2ec8438e2718e52f8c4.mp4 122ef854ea8cc57b0d701b3a8e39f867 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/a6620e81230ea3ccbc140ceb3d612311.pdf 9a54b9df7d6c3a4103fec956642cb721 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Kent Harrell (AKA Anita Richards) Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: December 23, 2025 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio.ai Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Project Interview December 23, 2025 Interview of Kent Harrell (AKA Anita Richards) by Toby Jenkins Addendum - Kent Harrell Show Notes from Riverside Studio AI Topics include: Drag performance, LGBT community, family dynamics, AIDS awareness, personal identity, marriage equality, pageant culture, early life, career beginnings Summary This conversation explores the life and experiences of Kent Wilson Harrell Jr., focusing on his journey through early life, family dynamics, understanding his sexual orientation, and his career in drag performance. Kent shares insights into the challenges faced by the LGBT community, particularly during the AIDS crisis, and reflects on his personal relationships, including his marriage to Taylor. The discussion emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself and offers advice for future generations. Takeaways Kent's family background includes a strong connection to the Air Force and NASA. Childhood experiences shaped Kent's understanding of gender identity. Acceptance of sexual orientation can be a challenging journey with family. Kent's drag career began in the late 1970s, inspired by performances he witnessed. The drag community has evolved significantly over the decades. Pageants in the LGBT community serve as both a platform for talent and a source of competition. 2 �The AIDS crisis had a profound impact on the LGBT community, leading to increased awareness and activism. Marriage equality has been a significant milestone for the LGBT community. Being true to oneself is essential for a fulfilling life Chapters 01:16 Introduction and Early Life 04:24 Family Dynamics and Schooling 07:23 Self-Discovery and Identity 10:21 Relationship Journey 13:21 Coming Out and Family Acceptance 20:13 Career Beginnings in Performance 25:15 Memorable Performances and Clubs 31:59 The Journey of a Performer 33:25 Pageant Culture in the LGBT Community 36:01 The Evolution of Pride Festivals 39:00 The Impact of AIDS on the Community 54:18 Love and Commitment in the LGBT Community ________________________________________________________________________Interview starts – Toby – please tell us your name. My name is Kent Wilson Harrell Jr. Toby - And for purposes of documentation, could you tell us your date of birth and how old you are at the time of this interview? 3 �March the 4th, 1960 and I am currently 65 years and about 9 months old I guess. Toby - Let's talk a little bit about how you got to us. The day of your appearance here in the world. So tell us where you were born, what city, and a little bit about your family. Well, my father worked for the federal government, and he worked for NASA. And he and my mother both were employees of Tinker Air Force Base. They worked for the Air Force. And my dad was constantly going for, what he did was quality assurance. Whenever the federal government would contract with an Air Force base to build a specific part for a plane or a rocket, or whatever and they needed a particular piece or something built, it was his responsibility to make sure that thing met government specifications. So he was constantly being moved to Air Force Base, Air Force Base, Air Force Base. So how I came into the world, he had been in Duluth, Minnesota for about six months, about four or five months, and my mother went to see him one weekend. And at this time, my dad was 43 years old and my mother was 39. They had a 17-year-old daughter and a seven year old daughter. So about a week or two weeks after that fact, they were out in an amusement park and my mother was a roller coaster fanatic and rode a roller coaster and got violently ill and went to the doctor the next day and the doctor said, you need to go to an obstetrician. And she went to the obstetrician. The obstetrician said, Mrs. Harold, you're pregnant. And she called my dad in Minnesota and said, guess what? We're going to have a new addition to my family. He said, no way. You're kidding. Anyway, long story short. That's how I came into the world from a weekend visit from Minnesota anyway. Toby - and they were living in Oklahoma City at the time. So you were born in Oklahoma City. Did you go to school in Oklahoma City? 4 �No, we lived in Oklahoma City until, well, for a long time, about two years, my dad was transferred to Vermont and New York State and then came back to our house in Oklahoma City after that and he came back to Tinker and then was transferred to North America Rockwell in December of 1964. So I was about four years and seven months old or so. So we moved to Tulsa and the first place we moved to was over on the west side. And we lived in an addition that's still in existence called Mountain Manor off of Southwest 33rd. The early days were Crystal City, shopping center and all that area around. Toby - and you went to school over in West Tulsa. Well, I started out, the situation was, in so much as both were working at North American Rockwell, my mother got a job there too. She was a statistician. And what they would do, they would drive from that area town towards North American Rockwell, and there was a little nursery school over on North Sheridan. And that's where they put me in daycare centers, we call them now. And so when I turned five, I had to go to kindergarten, of course, and the closest kindergarten to that daycare was Burbank Elementary, which is now the Bell Junior High School annex. And that's where I started my academia was at Burbank Elementary. Toby - Now, did you graduate from a Tulsa High School? No, as time went on, we ended up going from first to Tulsa, then they moved to Broken Arrow, and then from Broken Arrow to Rogers County and the Rogers County area. And we started out in Claremore and then moved to Oologah. So from seventh grade till my senior year, I went to high school and junior high in Oologah. And the reason I did that, my middle sister, because of my dad's position, had been moved from pillar to post, state to state, school to school. And when we finally settled in Oologah, I said, I'm not moving. I said, I'm not going to be transferred to any other schools. I'm going to stay here and graduate at this school. And if you don't like it, you're going to have to get me a transfer. And so that's what we did. And I spent from seventh to senior year in a very wonderful environment, a great, great school, and had a very normal academic situation in high school. 5 �Toby - and what high school. Oologah class of 197(?) Toby - For our viewing audience, I'm going to share a photo. How old are you in this photo? You're just a child. Six. Six years old. in this photo... Toby - You're dressed in a dress, looks like makeup. Tell us a little bit about, can you remember that event? My mother said once many, many years after the fact, she said, you know, when you were clumping down the hallway in my high heel shoes, I never expected you to turn it into a 45 year career. But I guess the situation was, I'm not going to say that I was, you know, you hear the stereotypical stories of a passive father, aggressive mother and all that kind of world. Not necessarily so with me, but my mother was a very gregarious individual. She was a wonderful personality and was a very colorful dresser. And she loved oranges and reds and greens and all vibrant colors. Well, men at that time were reduced to gray suits, blue suits, know, black suits. And here was this burden paradise in my household that was constantly looking so fabulous. And I thought that's what I, that's exactly how I'd like to be. so as stereotypical, I've heard this story from many, many gay individuals. I was attracted to, it was a crazy thing. I had my Tonka toys, had my GI Joes, I had my fire trucks, the whole rigmarole. But I also loved, my mom's high heels and all the bright colors and all the things and coming from that era no one ever specifically said to me you have to have a baseball or a basketball or a football or whatever. Whatever I wanted I got. It didn't matter to my dad whether I wanted a football which I had or a Barbie doll. Nobody ever cared. Which was so unusual from that time period. But you don't know it's unusual because it's your life, you know. Toby - So at six years old when you've got on makeup and a dress and high heels they thought it was 6 �They thought it was hysterical. My sister, at the time was 13, thought it was deplorable and that I was something to be hidden away as far as she was concerned. But no one ever took it seriously. They just thought it was funny. Toby - Now, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? How do you identify? You mean like of course I'm gay but I've always said male people have asked me it took me many, many years to make people in my family understand just because I was an entertainer a drag entertainer that I didn't necessarily want to be transgender full-time seven days a week Toby - Well thank you for sharing for that. Now you have a relationship. Tell us a little bit about your relationship. Taylor, my dear husband, Taylor and I met online when he was 19 years old. I didn't know how old he was. We got in contact on Facebook, and he got in contact with me instead of vice versa. I was just intrigued by this individual. I took a look at this face that I like, no face I'd ever seen before in my entire life. And something about him just was interesting. And I got to talking with him, asking who he was, where he was from. He told me he was from Minneapolis. I had no idea he was 19 years old. So when I found that out, I said, at that point in time, Facebook was talking to people or reporting that there were police departments around the United States that were using young men to entrap older gentlemen. you know, not knowing this person as I didn't, I didn't know whether that might have been the case also. So I found, once I found out specifically how old that he was, I said, I'm, I can't talk to you anymore. I'm sorry. And he said, but why? I said, well, you're just, you're too young. So I didn't speak to him for about close to a year and I did keep looking at his pictures and he kept looking at mine which I didn't realize till finally one day he messaged me and he said well, I'm 20 He said aren't I old enough for you to talk to now? Yes, I guess so and the situation was Taylor was Taylor felt he was transgender and from Minneapolis, Minnesota, and he was undergoing hormone therapy at that time. And he was engaged to be married to a gentleman that he was living with. But the gentleman that he was engaged to had a 7 �hard and fast rule. He said, if you want to take these hormones, that's your business and I can't stop you. But you will never, as long as you live under my roof, dress in female attire. And Taylor explained this to me and I said, you know, nobody has a right to tell you what you can and cannot be. If this is who you think you are, then you have every right on the face of the earth to be that. And I said, I'm going to give you an opportunity. I said, if you want to come to Tulsa and live with me, I said, I will make sure that you get the best medical attention. I will make sure in one way the other that you get the best best psychotherapy that you're going to have to have to do this. And I said, I will make sure that you get under the best medical care that you can have that we can find for you. If this is the person, you know, the avenue that you intend to be and who you feel you really are. So he said, he finally agreed to it. And he, and I said, well, then here's the, well, I said, I'm not rich. I have no money. I can't afford to send you here on a plane. But I said, I will try to get you here the best way I can. So bless his heart. He rode 17 and a half hours by bus to get here to Tulsa and as I told him We did get him under therapy Then he went through about and a half year worth of hormone therapy but somewhere along the way he didn't realize that it's a very hard and complicated thing to be a woman to there are certain things that you have to do in your day-to-day life that he really just didn't want to do so finally an individual who is very close to us who was trans sat him down and said Taylor you're about as female as the wall you're sitting against and I think you need to wean yourself off this medication and sit down and figure out who you really are and live your life, which is what he did. Toby - Thank you so much for sharing that. I want to talk to you a little bit about, this is your senior picture. Graduated from Oologah. Just curious, Kent, when was it that you realized that you were gay? I can tell you specifically. Toby - And tell us a little bit about maybe your interaction with your family. Because you and Taylor are legally married. And you're old enough to remember when same-sex marriage was not legal in Oklahoma. But tell us 8 �when you accepted your sexual orientation and maybe a little bit abouthow your family handled that identity. When I first realized that my attraction was more to the male gender, my mother and dad allowed me to go to a movie. I was 12 years old. There was a film that came out that year in 1972 called 40 Carrots. And it was about a lady who, a 40-year-old lady who on her birthday took a trip to Europe. And so on the prior was starring Liv Ullmann was the gal. And so in the process of this movie, she's driving along through Italy and her car stalls and she's on a bridge. And as she's out in the middle of nowhere, she doesn't know what she's going to do. And she walks over to the edge of this bridge and she looks down in this water. And there in this water is swimming this beautiful young man in a tiny yellow Speedo bikini. The yellow, the man in the bikini was Edward Albert Jr. And when he came up out of that water in this glistening, glistening photo, know, film, he came up out of that water. I was like, ha ha ha ha ha. And I knew right then that there was something a little different for me than most people. Or so I thought. I didn't know if I was the only individual like that or not. But that was the very first kind of initiation. Toby - You know, like all kids growing up in the 70s, you thought you were the only one on the face of the earth. You didn't talk about it. You know, I remember my mother and dad in a warehouse market and I was a movie magazine fanatic. And I was looking at some movie magazines and I was thumbing through and I looked down on the floor and there was a centerfold from that first, the very first edition of Playgirl magazine. And I unfolded that centerfold, went, holy cow. I folded it back up and put it in my pocket and it home. I stole it. Toby - You stole it.. I stole that sin and needless to say that was my little secret thing but there again I didn't you know I didn't discuss it with anybody really and to tell you the honest truth my parents were not they they you know as time went by of course you have revealed eventually you know they've put 9 �two and two together were they happy about it no no they weren't happy and there was a point in time where I finally said you know, you can't deal with this and I don't want to deal with you either. I, for my own purpose reasons, I moved to Tulsa. My sister said, you know, leave home, come to Tulsa. I was 19 and I moved to Tulsa. got a job. I went over and I moved into a place called Harvard Terrace Apartments around 21st and Harvard. I lived my own life and I didn't speak to my folks for over a year. It was a ridiculous thing to do because I was a very sheltered individual. I didn't know how to pay bills. I didn't know where you paid the water bill, the gas bill, blah, blah. Eventually lost the apartment, ended up homeless and still wouldn't go home. Still wouldn't go home. Lived in my car and then one day out of the blue I happened to see my parents. I was basically starving now. I had been doing drag all along. I had been doing drag here in Tulsa. I started in 1979 and but things weren't going great and being hungry as I was, I saw my mother dad drive down the street one day in their car and I thought, I'm going to go home, I'm tired, I'm starving, I'm going to go home and went home for two or three years, about three years and tried to live the life that I thought that's who they wanted me to be and then realized you just can't do it. You have to be who you are. You can't let somebody subjugate you into being somebody that you're not. And finally at the age of about 23 or 24, I came back to Tulsa. Toby - during that time had they resolved it that they come to accept that you were Well, a way, my mother once asked me, she said, you know, she said, I don't understand. She said, can't you just, you know, it's fine. That's your attraction is to men, but do you have to participate in that? Can't you just go over to the, you know, just stop it? And I said, mother, it's who you are. I said, you can't go off and you just, can't turn it off like a light switch at the wall. You can't just stop being who you are. It's who I am. I was born this way. You have to accept that. they did do it in time. But the real catalyst of the whole thing was when I was 26, I met an individual by the name of Larry Guz, who was my first long-term relationship. And he said, Kent, you've 10 �got to stop this. You've got to confront this. You've got to make them understand. If they can't love you for what you are, then they have to love you for who you are. And if they can't do that, they don't need you anyway. Toby – I want our audience to see a picture of your beautiful mom and dad. And they finally, my dad came to Larry and I and he finally said, if this is who you are, this is who you are and we accept you 150%. So that kind of, took a long, time, but they finally did. Toby - So, you're very. well known in Tulsa as Anita Richards. So I want us to kind to talk, begin to talk about your career as a performer. You said, you told us earlier that in 1979, and you would have been 19 years old, you already had started doing performance. Did you? How did you? How did come about that? I had never even heard of a drag queen. I didn't know there was any avenue that a guy could dress in female attire in public. I had no idea. From the time I was eight years old, was out in my mother's and dad's garage with a record player lip syncing to Funny Girl. I learned the lyrics to Don't Rain On My Parade before I could practically walk. I knew automatically and of course my parents thought I was nuts. You're hearing this kid who's out doing these big jaw long jams. So I knew that was something I wanted to do but I didn't know there was an avenue for it until one night there was a very fabulous nightclub here in Tulsa across the street from what is now TCC called Caruso's. And it had been there since the 1950s. It was a very sophisticated nightclub in the 50s called the Queen of Hearts. But by the time I came along, it had become a gay bar and was called Caruso's and it had a huge showroom that held about 250 people. And one night a young boy that I was dating said, let's go to Caruso's. He said, I'm going to sneak you in. He said, a friend of mine is performing on stage and needs a shirt from me. I'm gonna sneak you in and you sit in the back and I'm gonna go to the dressing room and give him the shirt and I'll come back and we'll watch 11 �his number and then we'll leave and get out of here before we get caught. So this boy, the gentleman performing his name was Samoy Alexander and he went by the name of Tracy Chateau, I'll never forget him. And he came out on stage, he was doing a song called The Deputy of Love and my friend brought him this western shirt covered with silver fringe and I saw Tracy come out and perform and I was like... Oh my Lord, can't, I want to do this, I want to do this. And the next individual that came out, I'll never forget it, was Trudy Tyler, who was, at that time, it was so funny, I was 19, Trudy was 21 and was already in Miss Gay Oklahoma of America. And when she came out on stage, it was a complete vision, I was just, it raptured. And I thought, this is something I'm going to do one of these days. So I... went back to work at Target and one Christmas we got some glittering ladies clothes and I saved up some money and bought a dress and the next thing you know I went to What Is Now the Eagle. This was 1979 mind you. I went to What Is Now the Eagle at that time it was Tracy's New Edition was what it was called and they had show nights, amateur nights on Monday and there was an intimate Queen there and I went in and brought a record and performed. My initial name was Anita Trick. And how that came by, I was standing there, the show director at that time, Tracy's was another very well-known Queen here in town, by the name of Miko Kassadine. to Miko Kassadine, she said, what's your name honey? And I said, My name's Kent. She said, no, what's your show name? And I said, I don't have one. She said, you have two entertainers ahead of you. You better find one, get one quickly so I can introduce you. And I'm standing there thinking, now, know, no one had checked IDs in those days. And here I am, this kid, I'm standing here thinking, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And a guy walked by me, he said, my God, I need a drink. And I turned around and I looked at me, and I said, my name's I Need a Trick. Well, she said, what? I said, my name's, I need a drink well she immediately thought I said Anita like Anita Bryant and she did introduce me on stage as Anita Trick and that was the first performance I ever did and so every time the Eagle holds much nostalgia for me you know but that anyway that started it out. Toby - You were talking about the performance in those days, this would have been in 1979. You get a record, you had to give them a… 12 �Yeah, you know cassette, no cassettes no CDs. The well-known Queens here in Tulsa they had these large leather cases and you put your record albums in the leather cases and they had a long strap you put the strap on the side of your shoulder carried it in with your luggage and the funny thing about 45 some odd years later Chris Cole and I were working at the Bamboo and someone came up with the grand idea that they wanted to do an old-fashioned drag show and they asked they said let's do this with albums, no cassettes, no CDs, let all the performers bring record albums. And so we had a little cast put together and the young people all agreed to it. They all said, we'll go out, we'll go research and go to the record stores and we'll find record albums and so forth. Which they did. And another gentleman who was one of the people that came to Bamboo brought a portable turntable sound system, which we used. But the funny thing about it was, in the days when those shows were done, Chris and I never were responsible for putting the show together. We were never responsible for the lineup of the entertainers and so forth. And you know that night we had 15 entertainers. Every single entertainer was doing three songs a piece. Every single song was on a specific album, so we're dealing with 45 record albums and having to label them and put them and I looked at Chris and I said it didn't use it was not this hard when we were kids. She said we were responsible for this movie. Well, didn't know any different. No, no, no, that's all we did. Toby – You talked about Caruso's, talked about Queen of Hearts, E-Ball, Tracy's. Tell us some of the other clubs where you performed. Oh, was some of them were clubs, some of them were dives. There was one downtown called Friends Lounge. I don't know if you remember, if you probably don't remember that. There was one... Well, the main club in those days, the very first bar that I was supposed to go to attend, we had a huge club here in Tulsa called the Old Plantation. You remember Old Plantation? And the very night I was supposed Where was it? I can't remember. It was 51st and Sheridan. The night I was supposed to go to the Plantation, one of the patrons set it on fire and burned it to the ground. So I didn't get to attend that club, but so the next largest club that everyone wanted to 13 �entertain at besides Caruso’s downtown was Zippers at 32nd and S. Yale. And that's predominantly where I started really, really entertaining was in Zippers. John Willis who owned Zippers was a very good friend of mine. It was a gay bar. It was a big disco. It held probably a hundred and maybe a hundred and fifty people. And I performed there for quite a while until they brought in a door lady and her name was Patty Murray Handley. And we all know Patty very dearly. And it was her first job. And I walked in with my suitcase one day for a performance and she said, I need to see your ID. And I of course automatically knew I'm 20 years old. I said, well, I left it out in the car. She said, no, I need to see the ID. She said, you can't perform in here. I said, I've been performing here for over a year. She said, well, you're not going to perform in here tonight because I'm not letting you in the door. You can come back four months from now when you're 21 years old. And I had to tell everybody and I turned around and walked out. Fast forward 40 plus years, I walk into a doctor's office of Dr. Jeff Beal and I had not seen this young lady since that probably about that time. And I walk in for my doctor's appointment and she's sitting at the admissions desk. And she took one look at my name and she remembered my face. And after she checked me in, I was sitting there in the waiting room and she said, could you come over here? Could you come over here? She said do you remember me and I said well I don't think so and she explained who she was and she said I have to tell you I want to apologize she said I have thought about this for over whatever it was 35 years I have felt guilty ever since that night that I didn't allow you to come into that club and perform like you had been I was just scared if I did I'd lose my job and she said do you ever forgive me I said I wouldn't remember this if you hadn't even mentioned it but of course I did anyway. She was following the law and I told her, I you know, I don't blame you. But you should follow the law. I don't blame her one bit. Toby - Well she was following the law. We here at Oklahomans for Equality believe that... What other clubs stand out in your mind? 14 �Really those are probably the most, there was a very place, I hate to use the term seedy, that's not a very good description, but there was a place downtown called, on 11th, called The Mining Company. And I performed there a few times, but predominantly Zippers, predominantly Tracy's. Toby -Now, during this time, you were a performer. Did you ever travel to other states? Not until later. I was the first individual from the city of Tulsa to ever perform at Angles. This would have been right because I was in Oklahoma City. As I say, I performed here in Tulsa from 1979 to about 1982 and that was when I decided to move back to Tulsa, move back to with my parents, which they were living 100 miles south from here, little town called Weleetka, Oklahoma. I stayed there two years and came back and once I came back in 84, I think it was 83 or 84, I started performing again and have continued on as a regular basis ever since that time. But in 1986, Angles in Oklahoma City had opened their very first talent show you might say. It was called Drag Off or Drag Race or something like that. Anyway, I won it. And by winning it, you had to come back, was the process of elimination. And by winning it and becoming the champion, I won a two weekend a month spot on the Sunday showcase at Angles. And so ended up being the first person from the city of Tulsa ever to work there on regular basis. As Ginger Lamar referred to me, I was the queen of the Turner Turnpike. She's the only queen in town that's got tire tracks up her back. Anyway, it was a lot of fun. Toby - So I know that you have won some titles and you participated in pageants. Tell us a little bit about the pageant culture within the LGBT community. You know today it's mainstream. There's you know top-tier shows that people sit every night and watch. But I always like them. But it was not necessarily in Oklahoma, but really it was. Miss Oklahoma, the America pageant system, course, is the oldest Miss gay America is the oldest pageant system in the United States. And it was it was formed in 1972 by the late Norman Jones, Norma Christie, and has continued on. And it wasn't until about 1977 that she released the royalty rights to permit, I guess you'd say preliminary pageants to get contestants for her Miss America pageant. You had to go through and still to this day have to go through a system. You win a preliminary title. Then if you go from 15 �there that sponsors you into a state title, which of course is like say you Miss Gay Tulsa of America, then you're sponsored into Miss gay Oklahoma of America. If you win Miss gay Oklahoma of America, you immediately are responsible to represent your state at Miss America, wherever it's held, Dallas or wherever. And that's still the same. It's been since 1972 and it's still the same way. Of course, as you say, now they're much more mainstream. I really personally, for me, my personal goal was predominantly entertainment. I wasn't I was not that much interested I did miss Tulsa USA in 1987 I think I did Miss Tulsa of America probably about 1988. But I wasn't necessarily interested in entertaining in pageants because in my estimation, a title was for a year. You spent a lot of money. Sometimes you won, sometimes you didn't. And I saw very negative aspects of the pageant system that I thought I just don't need to be a part of this. There's good aspects and bad aspects of everything and I saw both. And I thought my goal is to entertain in the public. That's what I want to do. I was happy to bring a little happiness into life and into other people's lives. But it wasn't until I was 57 years old a friend of mine opened a pageant system called American National Star, an independent offshoot. I told Taylor, I said, know, I wonder if I can do this. And he said, well, why don't you start a little late? And I said, well, long as you're breathing, that's my goal. As long as you're breathing, you have a chance and you can still move and God gives you decent health, go for it. So I entered American National Star Classic and won that and of course people said some of the judges said you know what is your goal here I said to prove that no matter how old you are if there's a goal that you want to accomplish you can go for it as long as your health holds out you feel like you're physically able to do it you do it well lo and behold I won that pageant and then went on to their state title and won that too. And then, so by me doing that, I was asked by my dear friend, Brandon Patrick, aka Chanel Sterling, to at 58 years old to enter the Miss Gay Tulsa pageant. She said, have you ever been Miss Gay Tulsa? And it was a rumor from a thousand years that I was at one time a Miss Gay Tulsa, which I never had even entered the pageant except once. So I had done that. I entered Miss Gay Tulsa of America. It was majestic and came up first runner up. And then was responsible to go to Miss Oklahoma and one first 16 �run up out of 13 other kids at 59 years old and the reigning Miss Gay America walked up to me that evening and said, you are who I want to be when I grow up. And I thought that was so precious. And I am proud to say I have the highest standing score of any individual in personal interview of any Miss Oklahoma of America pageant that's ever been. And the current Miss America that year. She said, now when you go to nationals, she said, I want you to do something for me. And I said, what's that? She said, I want you to be just exactly who you are right now. Because she said, if you are, she said, they'll fall in love with you just like I have. I thought that was so sweet. Sad to say, God and nature had other plans. Because after the four day Miss Oklahoma pageant, I came down with arthritic neuropathy. And was unable to practically walk for about the next month. And so I wasn't able to attend Miss America Pageant, but things work out for the best, guess. I don't know. Anyway. Toby - Did you ever perform at Pride? Only for about 25 years. Toby - First Pride Festival. I don't know, I couldn't honestly tell you the first one I performed at, the first one that I went to was in 1993 when we were out at Mohawk Park when it was considered a... was sort of, were all sort of, people were separated. Remember, I didn't see a lot of unity out there because there were different groups sitting all around. I was glad when it finally got more unified and moved downtown. But the first Pride I ever performed at I think was about 1996. Toby - So that's the first pride you ever went to. I don't know, 1993 was the first one. Toby - Now you eventually became... Queen of Tulsa Pride. I think so. One of my proudest moments. 17 �Toby - You're still considered the… So you talked about your love of drag was you wanted to entertain I can remember you being a regular cast member at Twisted Theater at Renegades. And you were a part of the Twisted Theater with Tabitha and I can remember you were a hit as Rose on the go. You were part of the Golden Girls cast and played Rose. You remember performing at Pride Day? Yeah, that's what is the what's the park? Toby - Well today it's called Veterans Park, but at the time it was Centennial Park. That was without a doubt. we all, all of us who participated in the Twisted Theater performances consider those our happiest days. We all still talk about it. Toby - Record crowds. And Tabitha Taylor, who is now Brielle Cassell, gave me the opportunity to perform roles that I would never in my entire life had a chance to do otherwise and it was the most unique experience. we all, she stretched all of us to the full capacity that she thought we were capable of performing. And I mean, I got to do things like Betty Davis or Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, as you say, Rose in the Golden Girls, and Sissy in the Sorted Lives, and all those, we performed. Toby - I remember some beach movie. Frankie Avalon, was Frankie Avalon and the footage of Beach Blanket Bingo was one of those we did. And then Little Shop of Horrors. Basically, for those who might not understand what we're talking about, Twisted Theater was where basically they chose a film. Did a little shopping, cut out all the unnecessary subplot, kept the main storyline, and added music to accentuate the story and to move it along. The most famous one, I believe, that was ever done was The Exorcist. what the director would do, he would take out the subplot, look at the film, use music to accentuate the different part, and sometimes there would be music that didn't even have anything to do or wasn't any part of the particular film, but it still was relevant to the story itself. And that's kind of what Twisted Theater 18 �was. was like, for instance, probably one of the most famous ones was we did the Wizard of Oz. But when Dorothy came and knocked on the wizard's door, instead of the, she and the scarecrow and the cowardly lion got to Oz, instead of meeting the wizard, when she opened the door, she was confronted by by Dr. Frankenfurter from Rocky Horror Picture Show. And that particular instance, Dr. Frankenfurter happened to be me. So that's kind of what it was anyway. And it was a wonderful opportunity to perform. I don't know if we'll ever see those days again. But there have been people who have tried to copy that format. And some of them have been very successful. Probably the single most successful use of that format is is Chanel Sterling, who is without a doubt one of the single most all around talented individuals drag or otherwise I have ever known or ever met in my entire life. And a treasured treasured friend. Toby - Let's talk a little bit about your 65. So you've talked about the 1970s all the way to the present. Tell me about the first time you heard about AIDS. I was sitting in a club. I had just come back to Tulsa, as I said, in 1983, I think, 83, 84. And I was sitting in a club and a former boyfriend of mine came in and sat down. He had just come back from New York and we got acquainted and we began to visit. And I said, how was New York, Dean? And it was Dean Martin. He said, oh, kid, he said, it's horrifying. I said, horrifying? What are you talking about? He said, there's something going on there. They call it gay cancer. I said, gay cancer? What do you mean? He said, it's a disease. He said, it's killing people just right and left. He said, you'll see someone out at a bar on a Monday and they'll be gone by Thursday. And he said, it's it's unexplainable. And I never heard of it. I didn't know what it was. didn't know. I didn't understand that it was how it was transmitted and so forth. The first person in Tulsa that ever passed away that was the first person that anyone knew about that came in contact with HIV and passed away from the disease was a young man by the name of Paul Pack, who was a bartender at a club downtown called Tim's Playroom owned by... was Tim Turner, Tim Turner. And his lover was a very well-known female 19 �impersonator here in Tulsa, she was Shawna Michaels. And all we knew was that Paul got very sick and he was the first person that anyone had ever heard of that had, was Kaposi Sarcoma. And we all knew that he had... away, well automatically that kind of put a face to the situation here in Tulsa specifically. And we didn't, any of us, know, you know, what it was, how we basically came in contact with it. And we knew how it was transmitted, of course, but we didn't know the ins or outs of the disease. everyone automatically started getting tested. And I remember the very first test that I ever took was in 1986. I was 26 years old. I was terrified, absolutely terrified. And the health department. Toby – That’s where you took that test? And once they found out what you were in there, they treated you like what you were there for… they treated you like basically you were a vermin, you know, and you're just non-human. And as time went by, after, by 1987, I was with, as I said, my other half, Larry, who was a patient of Dr. Jeff Beal. And Jeff was the first medical physician that I'd ever come in contact who knew what was going on. And he basically held meetings and tried to explain to people the severity of what was happening and how there needed to be funding for research and so forth. And was very much on the forefront of that. And we realized then the enormity of the situation we were in. And the very first time, I will tell you. I didn't think I was going to get emotional about this. The first time I ever was confronted with it completely. I was at a pride celebration on the campus of the University of California in Irvine. And they had brought the AIDS quilt to the campus and they put it in the Student Union and it was in different levels of the Student Union. So they divided it up so that you could go and see it. And I was a member of the court system in California, in Orange County at that time and I was there with one of their booths. And I left during a break and I went to the Student Union and walked through and I can tell you that I don't normally get emotional in public. I'm not that kind of an individual. But when I was confronted with those faces and with the, all the, just the whole enormity of the quilt itself, I just fell into pieces. The next thing I knew, they were picking me up off the floor and handing me a box of Kleenex. And I kept saying, I'm so sorry. I said, no. Toby - Do you remember what year that was? 20 �19, let's see, I moved to California in November of 1988. So this would have been about 1990. And it was just, you know, it just hit you directly in the face. But I... After I came back to Tulsa in 92, I lost a number of friends, personal friends that passed away with AIDS. And like we were talking about on the phone last night, one of the individuals was 33 years old. And he had come in contact with it through the first sexual partner that he had ever physically been with and had been dealing with the disease from the time he was 20 until he was 33. And he was a patient of Dr. Beal’s. And I remember him saying to me, he said, I don't understand it. said, you know, you, I haven't lived any different life than you have. You and I, we've had the same experiences. Why am I in this situation that you're not? And I truthfully didn't. I said, Michael, I don't know. I don't know. But I said, all I know is I want to help you as much as I possibly can. And I watched that poor young thing, young man, 33 years old, pass away, the most horrific death I've ever seen in my life. And you just, and I struggled with the guilt. You do, you can't help it. Because you think, how did this get me? And all I can say is that I think I have been put here for a purpose. Obviously there must be some reason or another or otherwise it would have been I would have been in the same situation and the only thing that I could do in help with him there was a doctor here in town the name of Ralph Richter who was participating in a study through a company called VaxGen and a doctor had developed what he said was a vaccination for the AIDS virus. And they were doing a blind test study through this doctor's office and I participated in it. And they basically, they gave you shots of the synthetic antibodies, basically what they were. You didn't know whether you were getting the placebo or whether you were getting the vaccination itself. There was a series of 10 shots that she took once a month, 10 months. Midway through, I began to start getting ferocious colds and illnesses and coming up with all kinds of strange bruises and so forth. I finally asked one of the medical people in his office, said, how does my body know that what you're and you couldn't tell have an AIDS test because if you did you automatically came up positive. Anyway I asked the nurse, I said how does my body know that I'm not getting the actual antibodies? I said how does my body know that it's 21 �synthetic? And she really couldn't answer so I quit participating. And about four months later right before the study was over with they explained to me they said you know we were just getting ready to close we wish that you would come back and continue this and I went ahead and did it. I went ahead and finished the test honey and lo and behold After it was all over they sent me notification that I hadn't been given the vaccination Now what was sad about that? One of the reasons that I quit was I didn't know at the time that this shot these inoculations were $900 apiece and I asked the Representatives of the company that were in the doctor's office. I said what makes you think that any young gay individual walking down the street is going to have $900 or basically $9,000 on 10 shots to be able to afford this. They can't do it. I said, how many insurance companies are going to sponsor this? Well, they had no, you know, they had no response to that really. Anyway, lo and behold, of the gentleman who invented the vaccination to try to get the American Medical Association to approve it. He was a doctor of course who dealt with aged patients. He took the blood samples, drew blood from his most terminally ill patient and transfused the blood into him, so the contaminated blood into his own body. And he never came up with the disease. And he tried to present that as a case to the AMA that for sure that this vaccination actually did work and they still refused to approve it. So it was all that trouble for nothing basically. Toby - I can remember you helping us raise money to buy this building. You would perform at some of the big events that we would have. I can remember you and Chris Cole performing at the old Brady Mansion on Denver. That was such a unique experience to come down those stairs and see all those people at the foot of it made you feel quite like a celebrity. Toby - What about, let's, you and Taylor were able to be legally married. I want to share your picture. And y'all got married in drag. He was still, he was the guest speaker that year 2014, November 2014 at the transgender day of remembrance. We had been together by this time three years. And as you all know, we had gone through our first initial commitment ceremony here, but I knew that he was scheduled to go up to Oklahoma City tonspeak at that organizational meeting. And he was 22 �involved at that time with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, which that organization. And he was very good friends of the individual who officiated our ceremony, who had gone through a minister, what's the correct term? Toby - A minister ordination. And that gentleman, the clinic, called me one day and he said, I have to tell you something. And he said, I think you should know. I said, what's that? He said, Taylor is preparing to surprise you with something. And I said, what's he going to surprise me with? He said he's bought a ring and he intends to propose marriage to you after he gets done with his speech at the organization meeting. And he said, I want to know, are you going to say yes because we've got to buy license. We've got to get everything together beforehand. We just can't throw away, have a ceremony. We need to do all this legally and I want to get it all prepared. I was quite frankly aghast. I didn't know what to say. Because the idea of being legally married had never really entered my mind. But I got to thinking personally about the situation and I thought this is this way I know that he is taken care of. I said, I know he's going to be taken care of, that there's nobody in my family that can come in and take anything away from him. That if it's all legally shared together. So I thought this is probably the best thing we can do for each other. And so he didn't know I knew anything about what was going to happen. So after he got done making his speech, he said, now I want to bring my other half up to, we were all outside with the candlelight ceremony. then I came up and he got down on his hands and knees, or she, she I should say, she got down on her hands and knees at that time and proposed. And I said, of course, yes. Well, we went into the building we were all attending this meeting. And Robin Dorner was the president of the gala, she'd already gone and bought the wedding cake and the whole nine yards had the license and everything there. The funny situation about it was we were standing on a platform about as high as this table when we to officiate the ceremony and go through the nuptials and when Clint said, 23 �do you, take this individual to be your lawfully wedded spouse to have and to hold until you part? When he had gotten aware of the situation it hit point blank in his face and he fainted. I was standing there. I watched his eyes roll, her eyes as I said she was a drag. I watched her eyes roll completely back on her head, turned snow white and started to fall. And I just grabbed her by the hand and jerked her back. He came back and I asked him, I said, what happened. He said, because I realized that this was for real, for real. This was this was going to be the lasting thing. There was no turning back, you know, the enormity of the situation. He looked me square in the face and he said, I'm glad we did it My father bless his heart. I loved him so dearly. He, when Taylor decided to become transgender or thought she was transgender. I didn't think I was going get emotional. My mother had left a pair of earrings on the table. And he had lived at this table all the time. My mother had been gone about a year. Excuse me, I can't believe this. This is crazy. She'd been gone about a year. And I didn't know what he thought about Taylor all of a sudden assuming a female identity, which he hadn't been when he came here. Because as everyone does when you're transgender you have to spend a year living in you know in your chosen attire what she was doing at the time and My dad walked over and he took the earrings off this table and he put them in Taylor's open hand And he said Mrs. Harold would be proud of you for having the courage to be who you feel that you really are. And he said, nobody can take that away from you. And that to me was just unbelievable. As time went on, Taylor decided that wasn't who he actually truthfully thought he was. Who he thought he was wasn't who he was anyway. But it was a situation that my dad did that. And I will tell you that when my father passed away, it affected Taylor almost more than it did me because he was, for the first time, had been totally accepted 100 % in that world. I had a very, very, very unique set of parents. Toby - This has been wonderful. Is there anything else you would like to say before we close out this interview? A message you might give to generations who come after you and watch this video. 24 �Be who you are. Don't let anybody, don't let anybody try to hold you down and try to make you who you aren't. You only have one chance at life and the thing you have to do with that one chance is to make the most of it as you possibly can and that's being true to yourself. That's the main goal in life is to always be true to yourself. Toby - One more time for the camera, your full legal name. Kent Wilson Harrell. Jr. 25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Kent Harrell Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Toby Jenkin’s December 23, 2025, interview. The interview explores his life and experiences focusing on his journey through early life, family dynamics, understanding his sexual orientation, and his career in drag performance. Kent shares insights into the challenges faced by the LGBT community, particularly during the AIDS crisis, and reflects on his personal relationships, including his marriage to Taylor. The discussion emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself and offers advice for future generations. Subject The topic of the resource Kent Harrell Oral History Project Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kent Harrell, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 23, 2025 2025 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill HIV HIV/AIDs interview Kent Harrell OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/2ba0854d31555f052589ee6f8f30d589.pdf c075226804ee57c66ba45d915a484f5e PDF Text Text OKLAHOMANS FOR EQUALITY OkEq History Project – Oral History Series Interview of Bill Francisco conducted by Toby Jenkins on September 13, 2011 Bill Francisco – Born September 5th, 1933, Passed December 25, 2024 Jenkins I'm Toby Jenkins, Executive Director of Oklahomans for Equality, and here we are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on September 13, 2011, for our Vintage Series, where we capture the stories of those who lived our history and made history. They came out, and we don't want them to have to go back in and keep their stories silent. So today we've got Bill Francisco, who will be my guest of honor, and we're going to find out about what Tulsa was like in the period of life that he lived here, and he lived in some other places and witnessed some very significant events associated with our community and the struggle for equality. Welcome, Bill. Are you excited to be here? Francisco Oh, absolutely. I understand that you just celebrated a birthday. Yes, I did. Do you really want to know? Yes. I'm 80 years old, September the 5th. September the 5th. Well, happy birthday, Bill. We welcome you today, and you've lived now seven decades on planet Earth. That's right. Any regrets? A few, but we forgot about those. Oh, you forgot about those? 1 �Yes, absolutely. I want to start a little bit today and talk about your early childhood and a little bit about what Tulsa was like in those days, and then we'll move through to some of the most recent things in your life where you've been honored by your own community, and we'll talk. I want to know some dirt on some people, so I'll be asking you some of those questions, and then I want to hear some secrets that maybe nobody else, because inquiring minds, want to know . Uh-oh. I'm in trouble already, aren't I? You were born what year? 1931. 1931, so that would have been in the middle of the Depression. That's right. I was a Depression baby. And you were born in Oklahoma? I was born in Oklahoma on a dirt farm right outside of Catoosa. Okay, born at home? Born at home. All right. Tell us a little bit about your parents. My parents were Portuguese. Portuguese, so that's what Francisco is? Francisco is the last name in the Portuguese. Francisco is a first name in Italian, but in Portuguese, it is the last name. The last name. Yeah, right. And so they were farmers. They were dirt farmers. Dirt farmers. Yes. And now did they raise their produce, and then they bring it to town and sell it? Is that kind of what they did, like drug farmers? Kind of like that. Yes. Now, where did you go to school? 2 �I went to, I guess, five grade schools. Okay. Here in Tulsa. In Tulsa. Yeah, yeah. Eventually, they moved into Tulsa into an apartment. Okay. And we went from apartment to apartment all until I was the sixth grade. Sixth grade. So I've been to practically every elementary school in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Now, what elementary schools did you attend that the buildings would still be standing? Several of those have probably been. Yes. Lincoln School, which is now Lincoln Plaza on there on 15th. In Cherry Street area? 15th and Cherry Street. It's Jason's Deli. I danced in Jason's Deli. And it was an elementary school. And it was an elementary school. All right. My first one was at Roosevelt. No, not Roosevelt. Longfellow. Okay. Longfellow. So it's now demolished. And there's the Native American Health Clinic there in Sixth and Peoria. Sixth and Peoria . That's where Longfellow Junior High School was. All right. So you attended elementary there. Yeah. Did you have some interest? Did you play sports or were you interested in music or dance? I didn't know what I was interested in. But I did become interested in the theater In the theater. 3 �Yes. And what was your first exposure to that? My first exposure was I was elected to play the part of the little boy, the pioneer woman, the little boy from Ponca City, Oklahoma. They was having some statue things for a benefit for the school. Right. And I was about this tall. And they said, oh, you'd be great as the little boy and the pioneer woman. You know? So I was all done up like a little pioneer boy. But it was all statues. And I had to stand still for three minutes without moving. And how old were you? Seven years old. Seven years old. Okay. Can you imagine a seven-year-old kid standing still for that long? What I did was I wanted to do such a good job that I held my breath for three minutes. It's a wonder you didn't pass out. And I almost passed out. You're right. I almost passed out. But I did it. And they thought it was great. They thought it was great. But I got interested then in the theater. In the theater. Because I love applause. Well, I think we all do. You like being the center of attention. It wasn't that. It was just the appreciation of the people who acknowledged it. Hey, he's okay. Now, did you ever do any dancing in those days? Oh, no. No. No. I didn't start dancing until I was in high school. 4 �Okay. I was a musician before that. What instrument did you play? Well, it's a bastard instrument now, but it was the accordion. Okay. And I think we have a picture of you. You're awful dressed up here. Oh, yeah. Now, there you are playing the accordion. Wow. Very distinguished. Looked like you should have been on the Ed Sullivan show. Well, this was taken in Chicago. At Lawrence Welk. That's right. But they were better than I was. But this was a competition at the Palmer House in Chicago, I think it was. The Palmer Hotel, I guess it was. And we went up there, a group of accordionists or accordion players, or whatever they're calling them, and went up there and competed in the national accordion. Now, where did you go to high school? I went to high school at Will Rogers. Will Rogers High School. And I think I have a picture of you. Looks like you might have your letter sweater on. Oh, yeah. I don't even remember this picture. Okay. Somebody sent this to me, and I said, are you sure that's me? Yep, that's you. No, I was a cheerleader. You were a cheerleader for Will Rogers High School? I was a cheerleader for Will Rogers High School. In those days, Will Rogers High School, is it in the present building? Oh, absolutely. Now, that was probably in the days when it was a brand new building, and it was the top design. I was in the 10th graduating class. 10th graduating 5 �class. And they called it Will on the Hill, because it was way out in the country, on the hill out there. All right. They called it Will on the Hill. Now, did you have any part-time jobs while you were in school? Like maybe work for a newspaper or anything? Well, my parents did not appreciate me going into the theater. Okay. So I left home very early. Very early? Very early. Had to support yourself? Had to support myself from whatever. I delivered the Tulsa World in the mornings so that I could go to school, and I delivered the Tulsa World out in the White City District. Okay. About 11th and Yale area? From 3rd to 11th Street, east of Yale. Yeah, the White City neighborhood. White City neighborhood. Yeah, it's not called that anymore. It's called Brayton Park now. Oh, is it really? At those days, it was called White City. Well, it really didn't mean White City. Right. It didn't mean it was named after something else. Yes, it was not. But anyway. Now, did you walk and deliver the newspaper or ride a bicycle? I did a bicycle and I did horseback. All right. Yale Avenue was a two-lane highway back then, and they had drainage ditches on each side of the highway. 6 �You're shaking your head. Do you know that? No. And they had these little wooden bridges to go through to the side streets, you know? And it was way out in the country. So I could ride my horse out there, you know? But the people of White City, there was a brand new, elegant addition. And I would ride my horse through their lawns to put the paper on their porch for them, you know? And when it would rain, I'd go through their lawn and put the paper on their porch, and they complained because I was digging up their lawn. Your horse was digging up their yard. Absolutely. So didn't you get fired from the Tulsa World because of that? No, they told me to stop riding the horse. So you went to Will Rogers High School. Yes. And you got interested in the theater. I got really interested in the theater. And when did you become interested in dancing? Because I understand that you had some interest in that. Yes. Actually, I was a little older. I was probably about 18 or 19 when I started to dance. Okay. I have your graduation picture right here. Graduation picture from Will Rogers High School. That doesn't look like me. You were very handsome. Yeah. That's a good picture, though. So when you were 19, you got interested in? In dancing. 7 �In dancing. Now, I know you rode horses, but what exactly is this picture? It looks like a mule to me. It's a toro. A toro. Okay. So it's a bull. It's a bull. All right. And I'm the back end of the bull. All right. And this is a theater group? This is the Tulsa Opera. And you were in a Tulsa Opera production. I was in a Tulsa Opera. Tulsa Opera first started out with operettas. You know, they weren't big enough yet. And all their first productions were all operettas. Okay. That was from Rio Rita. Okay. This is from the Desert Song with the Tulsa Opera. Then later on, they became legitimate and started to do the real opera. Okay. If this is an opera, did you dance or did you sing? We danced. Oh, yes. We danced. Okay. And I notice you are bare-chested, so they like to show off your bare chest. Well, I don't know. And this would have been in what year? Oh, gosh. Sometime in the 40s or 50s? 8 �Oh, it's got to be in the 50s. 50s? Okay. Yeah. I graduated in 49. It's got to be in the 50s. So about how? You were about 20, 22? Yeah. I was about 20, 22. Okay. And so you were involved with the Tulsa Opera and the Tulsa Ballet. At first. At first. At the Tulsa Opera was first. Then I got a scholarship to go to Los Angeles. And I went to Los Angeles and studied with Ruth St. Dennis Studio, which was a – people don't know her now, but she was one of – I guess – I don't know. I guess she was very famous as a spiritual modern dancer. And I got a scholarship to go – she was 82 years old when I went out there. Wow. Okay. Now, she didn't teach me much movement in dance, but the philosophy behind this woman just changed my whole life. She was really a remarkable woman. So you were out in Los Angeles. I was out in Los Angeles. Near Hollywood. Near Hollywood. And I studied. And I took lessons from Eugene Loring at the Hollywood School of Ballet. And I auditioned for a movie. This is when the musicals were all fabulous musicals, you know. What was it? The 50s, 60s, 50s? And I auditioned for a musical with Gwynne Verdon and Danny Kaye. And it was on the Riviera. But there was 500 dancers auditioned. I got to the final audition, and then I got a notice from Uncle Sam, come back to Tulsa, I was drafted. That brings us to this. That brings us to this. So there you are. Yes, I am. 9 �What branch of the military were you in? I was in the artillery. Army? Army. The Army artillery. That's where I started. That's where they drafted me, you know. Now, boot camp, where was boot camp at? Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. Oh, that's hot down there, wasn't it? Yeah, it was hot. Yeah, it was really hot. Really hot. It was very hot. So you went to Fort Chaffee for? Went to Fort Chaffee for my boot camp. For my boot camp. And then where were your assignments? My assignment was in Germany. I was very fortunate. It was right after the Korean War. It was in the middle of it before Vietnam, in between. And so I didn't have to go to Vietnam or Korea. They sent me to Europe, and I worked with the special services over there in Europe. So I had a good job, you know. I really didn't mind that much. I never carried a gun in my life, but it was pretty nice. Now, I see here that this is a Tulsa World newspaper, and it says GI Dancer, formerly with the Tulsa Opera, wins coveted medal in German Festival. So there's a picture of you bare-chested. They seem to like to show off your chest in those days. And you're bare-chested, and you're in front of a bunch of children. Tell us exactly what you were doing there. And apparently the Tulsa World was pretty proud. Tulsa was apparently pretty proud that... This article was originally done by the German newspaper. And it was all in German. And I couldn't understand a word of it. So I sent it home to my mother and said, could you get this, what do you call it? Translated. Translated, yeah. Get it translated. So she took it to the Tulsa World, and they just said, wow, this is wonderful. And they translated it and put it in the paper. Oh, am I moving? See, I get all... 10 �So you were there in Germany working with these school children. Now, what were you doing exactly? I was teaching them a lot of American dance in Augsburg, Germany. Okay. I was also helping to rehabilitate children from World War II. Okay. So you were part of the restoration. Part of the restoration of World War II. And I was teaching the children, and they honored me with this great honor from the city of Augsburg. Now, here's a picture. I don't know if our cameras can catch that, but it looks like you're dancing with someone with a crown on her head. Yes. That's the Princess of Augsburg. Okay. That I was dancing. And you got an opportunity to dance. Was she a good dancer? No. No, okay. But you made her look good, didn't you? Oh, yes. We just really, really appreciate it. And here you are with some of your military buddies. Yes, this is all my military buddies. Now, that was all there in Germany, correct? Yes, that's all in Germany. All right, so you did that in the military. And when did you get out of the military? 54. 11 �54? Did you come back to Tulsa? Oh, yes. Now, had Tulsa changed much because of the war? I understand there was a lot of building and GI homes were being thrown up. The GI homes were being thrown up. Brookside really became very, very, very big after World War II. With brand new homes and grocery stores and things. Little wooden houses, you know, all along Brookside. What did they call them? The little Cape Cod houses? All was done in Brookside. Now, Tulsa had big movie theaters in those days. And I understand you used to work at some of the big movie palaces. Yes. I was an usher. Of course, I still had to work my way through. Through living, you know, I was an usher at the Orpheum Theater. One of the most ornate, burlesque houses in the Midwest. It was absolutely elegant. Of course, they tore it down and built up a glass building there instead of it. Where was the? About a third in Cheyenne area. Second or third? It was a little bit past that. But anyway, it was a beautiful ornate theater. It was absolutely gorgeous. And I'd like to know where the Oklahoma Historic Society was at that time. Or the Preservationists. Preservationists, allow them to tear that theater down. It was just gorgeous. Now, were you there at that movie theater working there when they had the world premiere of Tulsa? Yes, I was. Yes, I was. And so you met? Yes, I was. What was her name though? Rita Hayworth. 12 �Rita Hayworth, yes. I ushered her down into the theater. They had a big parade down Main Street for the opening of the movie Tulsa. Okay. Big, big deal. Big deal in Tulsa. Thousands of people down there. And they had the premiere in the Orpheum Theater. And I was privileged to usher her down to the front row. Was she beautiful and gracious? Yeah, well. No, not really. She was kind of snooty. She was famous at the time. When they get famous and do things like that, you know these movie stars. Now I see in this picture, was this on a beach here in Tulsa? No. No? That's on Jones Beach in New York. Does anybody know where Jones Beach is? So you ended up in New York. Now how did you end up in New York? Okay. Did dancing take you there? No, no. I joined American Airlines in 1955, I guess it was. And I also worked with the Tulsa Ballet. Tulsa Civic Ballet at that time with Marceline Larkin. And with the Tulsa Opera, who became a legitimate opera house. I did Faust and I did, what was the other one I did? Faust and another opera with them. And that's where I stopped singing. There was this diva from New York, you know, they used to hire all the people to come in to sing the top roles. Well, oh, Aida, it was Aida. Okay. It was painted all in gold and everything. And at that time, they allowed all of the chorus and the dancers, they all had ballet in the operas, a quart of ballet in the operas. Well, they always allowed them to come in and sing at the finale. So they'd have a big crowd there. Well, I came in and I was right behind this metropolitan opera star in the back, just singing like mad. I thought I was doing great. She turned around to me and said, mouth it, buddy. I thought, oh, my God. I was throwing her off key. I have never sung in notes since. All right. 13 �I do some lip syncing now, but I've never done it. All right. So how did you end up in New York? You worked for American Airlines? I worked for American Airlines. They moved the accounting office from 910 South Boston to New York City. When they bought their first computer, IBM would not install a computer except in New York City, because nobody knew how they wanted them, you know. So they moved the entire part of American Airlines up to New York City. That's how I got to New York City. All right. And what did you do in New York City besides work? I understand you studied a little bit. I studied music. Yes, yes. I studied dancing, really. I was at the International School of Dance at Carnegie Hall. I did that of an evening after work, you know. So I didn't have much time to play because I was studying all the time I was there. And that's where I fell in love with clogging. They had a semester there of American folk dancing with square dancing and clogging and all. And I took a semester of clogging up in New York and I said, this is fantastic. I love this. I don't want to do ballet anymore. I don't want to clog because there's so much fun. And, you know, kids from three years old up to 80 years old can clog, you know. It's just wonderful. So I did that. And when I came back to Tulsa, I thought, this is really strange. I grew up in Oklahoma where clogging was all over the world and I didn't even think about it. I had to go to New York City to find out, hey, I love to clog. And I had it all around me all the time I was there. Now you're rushing ahead because I want to ask about some secret things. You were in New York. Did you ever, I understand in those days, lots of Oklahomans fled Oklahoma and they moved to New York for the gay culture, for the gay life subculture that was there in New York. There were clubs and bars, entertainment venues. Did you ever go out and have a drink at some of the nightclubs? Oh, yes, I did. And you met, did you meet anybody special there? I met my one and only partner. I've never had one since. And I was, what, 20, 24, 25. You fell madly in love. 14 �And I fell madly in love. His name was Nick. That was there in New York. And it was in New York City. Now in June... We used to go out dancing on Sunday brunch. They had big dances, tea dances they called them at the time. Sunday brunches, we would go out to the club, to one of our favorite clubs there in New York. And we would dance Sundays from 11 o'clock until 6 at night. He was the disco. He couldn't dance anything else. But he was a great disco dancer. And I had a great time. I really did. Now, and you were there in New York when the Stonewall riots happened. Yes. You were just around the corner, understand? What were you doing that night? Nick and I had gone down to the village to a little restaurant. They had these restaurants which was underneath the brownstones, you know, where they went down underneath it. Below street level. Below street level. They had these little restaurants there. And we went to our favorite restaurant. And we heard all this commotion going on outside, you know. And everybody in the restaurant got up, went out on the street. And we was a block away. We was a block away from Stonewall. But we saw everything that was going on down there. And... It was very frightening. Yes. But that started the gay movement. Now, did you have any friends who were injured or knew any of the people that were arrested? No, I really didn't. I really didn't. I really didn't. After it was almost... We stood out there for, oh, I guess about an hour. And we didn't even know what it was all about at the time, you know. And we walked down to the subway after dinner. And we went home. And the next morning on the paper, the Village Voice, we saw what it was all about. I wasn't in it, but I really, I really saw it. And you said there was quite a pushback from New York over it. And then there was a march a few days later. Yeah. Where they told everybody to come out and march in the streets. Yes, yes. 15 �And did you march in the streets with them in that parade? We had to work. And people were afraid still, weren't they afraid of being out? They were afraid. You had to have somebody with you. Okay. But the police was very cautious at the time. And that was the very first Gay Pride March? The very first Gay Pride March is in Greenwich Village in New York. 1969. 1969 it was. Yeah, and that started the whole gay movement. Look where we've come from. So whenever you, probably when we come around Pride time and you think about our parades, lots of young people today don't even realize we're commemorating an act of war. When they were waging war on us in 1969. And it was the retaliation. We stood up for ourselves. And we're commemorating when we stood up and said you're not going to do this to us anymore. Yep, that's right. So whenever we have Pride parades, do you ever allow your mind to think about that, that maybe some of our young people don't understand what it's really about? Oh, all the time. All the time. The young people today have so much freedom. When I grew up, there was no freedom in the gay community. No, there wasn't even a community. But the kids today have so much freedom to do whatever they want to do, whatever they want to do. And I just keep thinking, God, if I'd have had that when I was young, they have bars they can go to now. There wasn't a gay bar in Tulsa when I grew up here. I wouldn't even think about it. Except the Bamboo Lounge was the first gay bar in Tulsa. So you came back to Tulsa in the early 1970s? Yes, yes. I came back in, I guess about 75, I guess it was. And you had discovered clogging. I had discovered clogging. 16 �And you came back. In fact, did you hunt down the gay community when you got back to Tulsa? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I found freedom at last. You came back and told them about New York, right? Yes, yes. Now, what bars were there in that day in the 1970s? In Tulsa? Well, I can't remember all of them because I didn't go to all of them. My favorite was Tim's Playroom. Tim's Playroom. Oh, good. You could go in there and you could dance disco from nine o'clock at night until two o'clock in the morning without even stopping. And I used to go in there and just dance all night long, all night long. One of the greatest DJs that ever lived was in that bar. Now, you were talking about what young people have today. Yes. Whenever you think about the equality center and it being downtown, what do you think about that in Oklahomans for Equality? Oh, what you have done for equality is really great. I started out, well, coming from New York back down here and seeing all of the things going on, I helped start TOHR. Oklahomans for Human Rights is what it was called. Yes, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. That's what it was. There was about five or six very prominent people in Tulsa, and then there was me, the little guy that didn't have any money or anything. But I went in with them and I said, come on, let's do it. You knew Dennis Neill on that day? Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I knew Dennis Neill. I'll tell you something about Dennis Neill. He used to live right around the corner from me on 31st and Woodard Boulevard. This was a long time ago. And after work, he would jog, I guess it was called jogging then, he would jog after work down 31st Street down to River Park and back to home. I'd be out working in the yard. He'd always wave at me, you know, as he goes by. Hi, Bill. Hi, Dennis. And great guy. And I saw his first turnabout performance. Oh, he's done drag? I don't think any of us knew that. 17 �There was a big benefit out at this restaurant on 71st Street. It's no longer out there, no longer a restaurant. But they had a big turnabout benefit out there. And Dennis Neill was in drag. So you all formed this organization 31 years ago. Yeah. And so it's an entirely different world, isn't it, than it was 31 years ago? Oh, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Now, when did you start clogging with, put together your clogging group? My first clogging group was 1986. I formed it because of the Oklahoma OGRA, which is the Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association. We didn't have one in Tulsa. So I formed a group called the Green Country Cloggers. The Green Country Cloggers. And it was a great group. It was a wonderful group. And we performed all over the Midwest. We went from all the gay rodeos, from Denver, Phoenix, California, Kansas, Oklahoma. They didn't have one in Arkansas at the time. But I mean, every one of them. Texas, Texas was the big one. The big gay rodeo in Texas. And we became pretty famous, didn't we? Yes. Now, that was 1986. That was 1986. That would have been right in the middle of the epidemic. So we were having people, AIDS was in full swing and people were dying. And there were probably people here in Tulsa who had been infected. They were. They were. What are your thoughts about how the community reacted to that? I don't think they reacted. I really don't. They should have had more, but there was not enough information to say, Oh, hey, we're not affected by this. And out of my 12 cloggers, I lost seven. Out of your original things. So then we disbanded and I couldn't handle it anymore. And later on, when Tulsa got its own rodeo, SSRA rodeo, I started the SSRA clogging team, Sooner State Cloggers. Now here's a picture of your cloggers dressed up as the village people. That was the original Green Country cloggers. 18 �All right. And here you are. Are you the muscle guy or the police officer? I'm Felipe, the Indian. So you were the Indian. Well, that's a great picture. I love that. This guy right here, he runs the Eagle in Dallas, Texas. He owns the Eagle in Dallas, Texas. This guy here was one of the original owners of the toolbox. And this guy right here, beautiful man. Well, they're all very handsome. All very handsome. Yeah. Good group. Now you did clogging and somewhere in there, somebody decided that you looked a little bit like Santa Claus. And you started doing... Yes. I was doing, I was teaching clogging out in Glenpool at the Glenpool Community Center, which Glenpool was nothing then, I don't think. But we did a couple of shows out at Black Gold Days. I guess it was. Every year they had the Black Gold Days out at Glenpool. And I was working with the kids out there. And one of the organizers said, Bill, would you play Santa Claus for us? And I said, well, sure. I never get a chance to entertain, you know. I'm such a ham anyway. But I said, sure, I will. So they gave me this old Santa Claus, a moth-eaten Santa Claus suit and a phony beard. And I went out there and I clogged for their Christmas show. Well, the kids just went crazy. They thought it was the funniest thing to see Santa Claus clogging. And I said, well, you know, I continue to do it from then on because I made the kids so happy with that. And that's how it all started. We're looking at a magazine article from 1998 in The Oklahoman. And it's a feature article on you, The Dancing Santa. And it tells about his opera days and what he did in the restoration of Europe and his work with German children. But it also talks about how he just lights up the day and makes these kids' parties so exciting with Santa who dances. Well, you've had quite a remarkable life. I'm looking right here. You've been given seven awards. This is a lifetime achievement award that you received last year. Clogger Bill, with huge thanks from the Tulsa gay community, 2009. You are our hero. That was in 2009. And you've continued to do a lot of benefit work for lots of different nonprofits. And lots of organizations that serve people living with HIV AIDS. 19 �Absolutely. The other night... I'm a server. You are. I try to do everything to serve. I don't want anything for myself. Well, almost. You won't turn it down, is what you're saying. That's where we go. You know, the other night... I'm very humble. I just don't want anything, except I do love applause. Well, I think we all like attention. The other night, the Tulsa Eagle threw a birthday party for you, celebrating your 80th birthday. Unbelievable. And the place was packed. And such good fun. I want you to know, I was looking forward to that and I was excited being able to attend. And then I want our audience to know that a few days before that, you called me and you said, Toby, I want to do something to remember the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people who died on 9-11. Nobody's ever thought about them. So you wanted to inflate helium balloons in pastel colors. We spent all afternoon blowing up the balloons. And you said, Toby, I want us to launch the balloons a little after seven. So that was what I was so touched by because I'd been watching on 9-11 Sunday. I'd been watching all the coverage of the dedication of the 9-11 memorial and how that affected Oklahomans. And then I attended the event at the BOK Center that OCCJ sponsored. And then to be able to go to your party where our community gathered and we wanted to make sure that our people had not been forgotten, been recognized. And we set those balloons off at 7-15. We read the names of all of the hundreds of gay people who died on 9-11. And we set those balloons off. And it was the strangest thing, there was a set of jets doing a maneuver up in the sky. And right when we set those balloons off, the balloons took off and those jets crossed right in the middle of the sky. And there was this huge cross in the sky as we set those balloons off. Now, Bill, I checked. To my knowledge, there was not another memorial tribute to the gay victims of 9-11 than the one in Tulsa, Oklahoma that Bill Francisco wanted to do. It was his day, but you still wanted to think of others. Now, because of that, that night they surprised you. And I think probably this sums up your life. It takes a moment to change history. It takes love to change lives. The Imperial Court of all Oklahoma hereby proclaims the Youth Scholarship to be forever named in the honor of Clogger Bill Francisco Youth Scholarship Fund, September 11, 2011. That night they surprised you by naming a youth scholarship in your honor. How do you feel about that? Oh, my God. First, I wish they wouldn't do it until after the show. Because I was so emotional, I couldn't hardly dance. It's a big honor 20 �. It's a very big honor. Now, what do you think when young people, young gay and lesbian people who are applying for scholarships to be able to go to college and further their education, when they hear about this scholarship opportunity and they read the story about who it's named after, what do you want to be able to tell them? I want them to follow their dreams. Go for it. Well, thank you very much. You've been with us today while we've interviewed here on Vintage, Bill Francisco, who I think followed his dreams and he did go for it. And our city is richer because of his contribution. Thank you so much for joining us today. Applause How was that? 21 � https://history.okeq.org/files/original/cae0cab67dbba006859779f324fcbc61.mp4 e71dbd9d5040432cf3641c9dd2b8169e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2011] Bill Francisco Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Toby Jenkin’s September 13th, 2011 Vintage Series Interview. Bill was born on September 5th, 1931, on a dirt farm outside of Catoosa, Oklahoma. He passed on December 25, 2024, in Tulsa. He made his first stage appearance in a school play in Tuls at the age of 7. At that moment, he was attracted to the theatre and applause. From being a high school cheerleader to playing the accordion to forming Green Country Cloggers, Bill was a ham. He served in the Army, spent time in Los Angeles learning dance and ballet and lived and worked in New York City before returning to Tulsa. He witnessed the first Gay Pride Parade in New York City in 1969 following the Stonewall Riot. He was locally famous as the “Dancing Santa,” exciting children throughout the Tulsa area. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bill Francisco, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Subject The topic of the resource Bill Francisco Vintage Series Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 13, 2011 Bill Francisco Green Country Clogger Green Country Cloggers interview OKEQ Oral History Project oral history Oral History Project Toby Jenkins video Vintage Vintage Series https://history.okeq.org/files/original/af3892e1009ef4a72953531bd8ad6948.pdf 29efab7deeeaeb7fa7bc7ad295dc2341 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Carolyn Wiley Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: 2009 or 2010 Additional Interview conducted on May 26, 2026 and included as an addendum Transcript Edited by Dennis Neill – May 30, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: Video for Onsite Review Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 1 �About Carolyn Wiley… Screenshot from 2009 or 2010 Interview. Photo taken on May 26, 2026, when Toby Jenkins did an additional video interview with Carolyn. The transcript is included as an addendum. Toby Jenkins - Bob, who is our translator today, Carolyn's partner, is hearing impaired and in this video she wanted to make sure that her partner would be able to see the whole interview. And then of course, Glenna, who does a lot of work with us here at the center and teaches sign language classes and all sorts of things like that, she is also hearing impaired. And 2 �her daughter is in charge of the GSA group at Owasso, so give Glenna a hand. We're very proud of her. Alright, if you're ready, I'm ready. Okay, we're ready. Alright, I'm Toby Jenkins, Executive Director of Oklahomans for Equality, and we're here in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center with our Vintage series. Vintage captures the stories of those who brought us to the place where we're enjoying incredible freedom and acceptance in this part of the country and helped us build what we have today here at Oklahomans for Equality. We're interviewing Carolyn Wiley, who is a former educator, an advocate for many issues for the gay community, who can tell us a side of the story that you may not know, so I look forward to you hearing about a little Oklahoma girl who made it big. And Carolyn, now this is just like the Jerry Springer story. We like to come up with some secrets, so be thinking about that because I'm going to let you tell some little tantalizing details for us to do also. Carolyn, thank you for being with us today so much. We're very honored, and I've known you for years and always admired you, so I feel very fortunate to have you with us today. I want to start at the beginning, not the beginning of the earth, but at the beginning of your life. And this little baby doll right here in this picture was born where? Where were you born? I was born in Duncan, Oklahoma. Duncan, Oklahoma. Way out on the prairie. Yes, and then taken even further out on the prairie to the farm where I grew up. An old farm girl. And this right here is a picture of your mom and dad? This is a picture of my mom and dad, and they were older. They were both in their 40s when I was born, and I was adopted, so they wanted a child very bad. And yeah, they ended up with me. Well, I think they probably were proud of you because the pictures seem to say that. This is a wonderful picture of, I believe you said this is your mother's parents? My mother's parents, along with my parents. This was taken down in north central Texas, just west of Wichita Falls, at my mother's uncle and aunt's store at Four Corners Mankins. All that was there was a little filling station, their little filling station, grocery store, which is where that was taken. And they had a post office, and there were about two houses, and that was it. That was it. That was it. Lots of rattlesnakes. 3 �Well, I love this picture right here. It says Lincoln Valley District 79. And this is your school picture, and Lincoln Valley would have been around where? Lincoln Valley was located about six miles outside of Walters, little community school, little one-room schoolhouse. So yes, I can tell the story of going to a one-room school. That was the entire school, grades one through eight. I was a whole five years old in the first grade. Needless to say, I was too young to go into a proper school. But the teacher said it was okay, invited my mom. And there was another family with a little boy, five. And so we got to be in first grade together. Hi, everybody. Thank you. It was quite an experience. And yeah, what can I say? That was where I got all of my whippings that I ever got in school. Oh, and you got several? I got four that year. Four whippings in one year by the teacher because I liked to play in the water. Every time it rained, there would be water puddles out there. Couldn't get wet. Right. So we'd start walking way around and get closer and closer and I'd get wet. Now, how old are you in this picture right here? Oh my, that is third grade. Third grade. Little freckles. Seven years old. Beautiful blue eyes. Very curly hair. Very curly. And would you love that? Would you love to have your hair brushed? I think you told me. Oh, I hated having my hair brushed. Because it was long hair. I was very tender-headed because, well, I was always with my dad. Wherever my dad was, that's where I was. Whether it was riding in the back of the pickup or I was riding on the tractor or on the drill or whatever at the time. And my hair would get tangled and mother wanted to brush it out and it was not very gentle and it hurt and I tried a lot. Where were you at school? Because your little one-room school house had closed. The one-room school house closed after the one year and I had to go into town to Walters to school. All of my schooling was in Walters until I went to college. 4 �Now in this picture, I believe you cut your hair. Finally. This was the day at the beginning of your hoodlum years? Yes, as a matter of fact it was. And believe me, I talked for the longest time I wanted to get my hair cut, as I said. Because I was so tenderheaded and I wanted to get it cut. And the style was short. This was early days of Elvis Presley and rock and roll. And I wanted short hair and finally after many years, I was allowed to cut. And so I had the old-fashioned, what was then called a duck tail, which was very, very short. So yes, in a little bit I realized that it was the beginning of my hoodlum years. In this picture though, you look like you “femmed up” quite a bit. This is a beautiful bouffant hairdo. What year did you graduate? I graduated high school in 1963. 1963 from Walters? From Walters, high school. And you were a beautiful young woman. Thank you. Thank you. Now let me tell you, we're going to rush on to college. Here you are, I believe this is maybe your graduation picture from college. That was my freshman year. There's one year between those two. Little country girl and you went to school where? What college? I went to, started out at Oklahoma College for Women, which was all women way back in the day, which had I known, really known back then, I could have had them all. And going back through all of the pictures and realizing all of the lesbians there were. Yeah, I said I could have had them all. And where was the school? 5 �The school was in Chickasha, Oklahoma College for Women, which after two years, my junior year, they decided to let boys into the school and it became Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts. And what did you study? Let's see, the first two years was music, voice, women as voice major. Then switched over to music education. Then switched to business, spent a year as a business major. Then went back to music, I missed it too much. Then I transferred to colleges for a year, went out to Weatherford, and then came back and in 1969 graduated from Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts with my bachelor's degree in music education. And became a school teacher. And became a school teacher. Now where was your first assignment? What was your first school to teach at? The very first school I taught in was in Bartlesville at Madison Junior High. And from there you went? Then I moved back to Duncan so I could be closer to my parents because they were getting older and being an only child, I felt obligated to them or wanted to be closer. So I moved back to Duncan, taught there for eight years. And then moved to Locust Grove, Oklahoma. You told me an interesting story, I want to cover this. This is in Duncan, Oklahoma. Now let's real quickly, you have finished college. Had you had any kind of romantic relationship with another woman prior to that? I was getting ready to go out and do my student teaching. I finished the class work. Went out to do my, was getting ready to go do the student teaching. There was a young lady I had met there at college playing bridge with. And she had worked in the cerebral policy center in Norman the previous summer. And I kept wanting to go visit her kids that she had that summer. And so she finally agreed to allow me to go see her children, her kids as she called them. And she was a paraplegic, which meant she was in a wheelchair. She had polio. The cerebral palsy kids really related to her very well. They did things for her that the other teachers were trying to get the kids to. But because they responded to it, they could identify with her. They did things for her that they wouldn't do for others. So anyway, didn't go there. We ended up spending, as a celebration of finishing all my class work, ended up spending the night. Went out for a fancy dinner, went to Oklahoma City, spent the night. And when I awoke the next morning, I had some souvenirs on my neck, 6 �also known as hickeys. And I had to get back to Chickasha to move out of the dorm and back home to my parents to do my student teaching. I took a lot of makeup. And thank goodness for the old days of hand stick that covered it very well. So that was your first relationship. That was my first relationship. And from there, we continued on and I was with that person for five years. And then what I want to bring out is in this story, you were in Duncan. That was the scandalous part that we wanted to hear. So very good. You ended up in Duncan. And I believe you mentioned to me that you were in a relationship. You had a companion when you were teaching at Duncan. And then you tell this story about a young man who also taught. Yes. Now tell us a little bit about that in this picture here. Here, Carolyn is in front of an AIDS quilt. And I want her to tell a little bit about her years at Duncan and about her relationship and then her relationship with another colleague who also was gay. Yes, I was very proud of this picture. I was very proud when the AIDS quilt was brought here to Tulsa and I had the honor, knew someone who could ask to bring a certain panel in. And I wanted to see Joe's panel. The panel was for Joe Dodson that I had taught with in Duncan. He was gay. I was a lesbian. And back in those days, one could not be out. So that was one of the reasons you could lose your job. You could be dismissed as a teacher without anything had to be written up. I mean, they just let you go. So it was on the books. It was definitely on the Oklahoma education books. Not just on the local level, but on state level. (Editors Note: Oklahoma removed its ban on gay teachers in 1985) Anyway, Joe was a science teacher. I was a music teacher. And when I first saw him, I thought, yes, I could tell. The gaydar went off. And as I said, became acquainted with him. We had quite the relationship as far as the straight teachers community went on in that we were considered more or less a little couple. And when we could invite guests, I mean, when there would be occasions, you know, we bring your spouse or whatever, I would invite his boyfriend as my date. He would invite my girlfriend. So we double dated a lot. And then he died of AIDS. And then he changed schools. And unfortunately, yes, he did pass away from AIDS. 7 �And you specifically wanted his quilt brought to Tulsa? I wanted his panel brought in and to read on his panel and to see where the teachers from Moore had finally come around and they signed his panel. They were very supportive later on. But in the early days, it was completely unknown. You were in Duncan and then we have lots of pictures here that I believe these were schoolteacher pictures. And you left Duncan and eventually you came to... Locust Grove. And how many years were you in Locust Grove? I taught school in Locust Grove for 17 years. Seventeen years. And is that where you began to get connected with the Tulsa gay community? When you were living in Locust Grove? It was. In the fact of, as I referred to it quite often, the hinterlands. After being in Duncan around auto money, where the children drove a lot better cars than the teachers did, naturally. It was like stepping back in history 70 or 80 years because this was a very small community. We had more student enrollment was larger than the town's population because it's an auto recreation area. Everybody lives out in the country. They don't live in town proper. As I said, there was nothing to do out there. So you come to Tulsa. It's only 45 minutes. Well, back in those days, it was an hour because they didn't have the turnpike like they do now. It was the old highway 33 with all the crooks. Curves from Locust Grove to Chouteau. She goes many times. Once even in snow and ice. Now you came to Tulsa and you got involved in the gay community. I understand that you were really involved at MCC, Metropolitan Community Church. You want to talk a little bit about that? Yes, I was very fortunate. I was raised, my mother was Pentecostal. I was raised Pentecostal as in Church of God, Assembly of God, the old 8 �fashioned holy roaders as they had been called or you would hear of. But anyway, I was excited to find out that there was a church that accepted gays and lesbians. There was a huge, I mean, we had all been raised in a church, whether it be Baptist, Presbyterian, Christian, Catholic, I don't care what religion. We had some sort of religious background. I had mine. Fortunately, I had been given the opportunity to think for myself and accept the others. And with my college and my music, I had already been associated with Christian Church as choir director. I had been an organist for Methodist Church. I had been choir director for Presbyterian Church. So, I mean, it all came down to we all had a same belief. We all believe in the higher being, whether you call it Buddha, God, whatever. And I just had this openness. I was fortunate enough to be able to open my mind and say, OK, we're all believing the same thing. And we're not going to, anytime you get two people together, at some point, I don't care how much alike they are, you're going to find differences and accept differences. Know that we can agree to disagree. We don't have to go to this city over it. Very good. So you got involved. You got involved in the MCC church and were involved in their music program. Yes. Being the musician, either singing or playing the piano or sometimes the organ. Anyway, yes. We directed some choirs and y'all did some traveling. We would travel. I just had the opportunity with my music to be involved with church, go and sing, go and play, fellowship. Met many wonderful people and just, it's been great, it's been an opportunity to meet people from around the world. And with MCC I did have the opportunity to go not only to regional conferences, but to go to the international conference one year in LA. And that particular year they decided, I said they, meaning the immigration service decided not to allow some of the representatives from foreign countries who were HIV positive, they would not allow them into the country. (Editors Note: In 1987 the US added HIV to its list of contagious diseases and instituted a travel ban for all travelers with HIV. It was officially lifted on January 4, 2010) To attend the international conference of the MCC? Right. The fellowship. And here you are, this is in a picture in Los Angeles where they're picketing in the streets. We, they arranged and hired some buses, took us by bus from the hotel downtown to the INA, the immigration services, and we staged a protest. And it was wonderful and I felt, and I still feel very honored to have been 9 �there, to go through that experience of knowing that we were standing up for people who were not HIV positive. We were not allowed in our country. Here we are supposed to be so free and so accepting. And yet these, there were people held out of the country from coming simply because they had AIDS. It didn't matter, they had their medication, so on and so forth. They were not contagious. And most of these would have been ministers, wouldn't they, coming from foreign countries? Yes, a lot of them would have been ministers. In this picture, the signs say, let my people in, don't test our guests. Carolyn, you realize that this protest, it was the first year they had the ban, wasn't it the federal government banned anyone from coming into the country? It's the first one that I know of. And you do realize that it took decades for that ban to finally be lifted. President Obama was one of the first things he did as the president of the United States of America. He lifted the ban, the travel ban. So now people from other countries who may be HIV positive, they are able to visit our country and attend the International Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches and many other congregations that are finally opened up to gay people and their ministry within the church. So when you think about that and what you would want to say to young people about that and the feeling you had that day when you marched in the streets, what would you like to say about that to young people? If you believe in something, have the guts to stand up for it. As I said, when you invited me here, I didn't feel like I had done that much. I was not out in the forefront. I wasn't the ones out marching. I couldn't or I didn't think I could. Now that I'm older, I realize that I can. And I try and support the youth in every possible way I can. Anyone. As I said, we've all got to start somewhere and I wish I had had the background, someone to support me. I remember the first year, and it was before the OKEQ, going to the Human Rights Banquet. It was during Pride and coming to hear the guests that year. The grand marshals that year were Olympic Gold Medalist Greg Louganis and Colonel Margarethe Cammermeyer (Editors Note) . And to hear all of a sudden, they were recognizing high school students for forming Gay and Straight Alliance. To have that in the school, the children, and they didn't have to be gay students, but there was friendly people there to support them. Going back to Duncan, one note. I remember one student, and back then there was also not only gay-straight, but racial. There was strictly the black community and there was a white community. The blacks would walk as a group. They would walk to school. And I mean, they were always in a group. There was one young man who, unfortunately I never had the opportunity to, but yes, looking back, he was very gay. And he was not 10 �feeling well and he got permission from his teacher to go to the principal's office and wanted to go home. I was told, no. He said, why do you need to go home? I have the cramps. Excuse me, a guy doesn't have cramps, as in menstrual cramps. I'm sorry, but just to know that there was someone there now who had moved to the point where there were people who would support more than just black, white, or racial differences. But straight people, knowing they could be friends with a gay person or a lesbian. And the young people just have no idea. They're used to having that around. That's a very good point. Now, you talked about how in the early days, tell me about how your first time to be in a gay pride parade, where was that and what did that make you feel like? And why were you there in that specific place? Again, I went with, I did a lot with churches or ministers. My first gay pride parade was in Oklahoma City. I had the opportunity to go with, there was a group from the church, MCC, even though at that time here in Tulsa we had two MCCs. There was the regular church or the founding church, and then there was a branch-off group, Family of Faith. I was going there with the minister to Oklahoma City for their pride parade and to ride in the car representing a northeast part of Oklahoma. And I felt safe in going to Oklahoma City. Even though there would be cameras there, I knew that the news coverage or the cameras, they would be shown in Oklahoma City. There wouldn't be people from Locust Grove that would be able to see that. So I knew I was safe in my job, but I felt very proud just to see people lined up up and down the street knowing that they were supporting gay people. Then I got to go to the first pride parade in Tulsa back when we gathered down on Brookside, which is 33rd, 35th part of Peoria. And I was honored in carrying the banner in front of the pick-up saying, our church. And I got to walk all the way from 33rd, wherever we started there on Peoria, up to 31st, then we turned and went over to Riverside, then up to Riverside all the way to Veterans Park. And it was the first parade. It was great. And during the walk, happened to be along on the sidewalk, there was a person that I sang with that had no idea I was a lesbian. And she came running over, she was so excited that I was marching in the parade. And gave me a big hug, and that meant the world, knowing that I had a straight person that was willing to come and support me, and did support me. And it took a lot of courage in 1999, and this organization fought for several years to try to get permission from the city council to let us have a parade, and every year it was voted down, and sometimes they would just have a parade where they'd walk down the sidewalks. 11 �And so finally they got permission, and this is 1999, you were there, even in 1999, was there a little bit of apprehension that maybe if somebody found out about you, it would affect your... Oh yes, it could have been dismissal, although I had tried to instill in my students and fellow teachers, etc., the feeling that just because you were in some sort of a march did not mean that you were gay, or like in a pride parade, did not mean that you were gay, but that you had sympathy for someone else. And also I want to mention during this parade, there was quite the protest from Fred Phelps Church. I mean, there were lots and lots of pictures, and we were told endlessly, do not make comments back to them, do not let them get to you. Just smile and say, God loves you, I'll pray for you, or whatever. Did not get in any kind of confrontation at all. All right, so those were some early days, and we've talked a little bit about, want to talk a little bit about when you first began to hear of AIDS in Tulsa, and maybe some of the things that you were involved in in those early days. The first thing I remember, of course, was through church being an MCC, and we would hear a lot about all different places in the country. There were starting to be, even though I was not aware of that legend here in Tulsa for several years, that we had lost people. I can remember the early days when we used to have a gay softball tournament, and supposedly that was how many of our first members contracted were infected with AIDS. And the fact that some of the outof-town guests, when they came in, supposedly this was how it was spread. So they would have came from larger urban areas, had intimate relationships with local persons, and they were infected that way. So there was this theory that that's how AIDS came to Tulsa, is what you're saying. That's, yeah. In that, or when the people here, and unfortunately it was men, would go to other cities such as Dallas or San Francisco or LA or Miami or New York, where the larger communities where there was more chance of being infected. Yeah, and unfortunately we lost many, many good people. So it happened here quick, and then what was Tulsa's response? Do you remember, did y'all come together in organized groups? The main thing I remember was the forming of the RAIN [edit comment – Regional AIDS Interfaith Network] teams, people to go out. For those who were infected here in Tulsa, to go out they would form huge RAIN 12 �teams to go out and help care for them. Most of the time these people were, of course, turned away by their families. They were having trouble finding a place to live, having someone take care of them. If they were in any type of relationship, their partner many times just up and left. They couldn't be associated with it. So they were isolated. They were totally isolated. And abandoned. Definitely. Fortunately, a lot of different churches, not just MCC, but the different churches would form the RAIN teams to go out and help care for these people. Did you, were there lots of funerals in those days? Oh my. And did you get asked to sing at several of those funerals? Did your choir suffer with those funerals? Yes. Yes to all of those. There were funerals, oh mercy, at least once a week, sometimes two or three times a week. You mentioned Leslie Penrose earlier. Bless her heart. I remember one year in between when they was on AIDS Day when they would just mention the ones who had passed, the reading of the names for that one year and present new panels that were being made for the AIDS bill. And she had lost 40 people in that one year. And that can be devastating, not only to the immediate family, but I don't care how you are intertwined with someone. Our lives constantly get together. We overlap, whether it be young, old, black, white, any type of ethnicity. We do interact with each other and we must be accepting of one another, whether it be the, back in the early days when it was more or less the war between the gay men and the lesbians. We have finally learned to come together. And I mean we were all fighting for the same thing, we were constantly fighting each other. And I always thought that was such a shame, but we finally did get our acts together so that we can. And today it's lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and young people today like to call themselves queer, which is quite a bit different than what we grew up with. That was a term of derision, wasn't it? Oh, if you were called a queer back then, I mean that was highly insulting. Now, what do you think when we were talking about the AIDS and you losing so many people in that day, what do you think about when I tell you 13 �here in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on the other side of these cameras, we hang on permanent display the AIDS quilts. What do you think about that when you can see that right here are Oklahomans, we always request that they feature Oklahomans. What do you think when you walk into this room and see those? I mean, often reminded, I mean I love to look at that quilt because it has special memories. Some of the people that are on the panels on the quilt are people I knew. Do you realize that sometimes we have young people under I would say 35 who come into the building and have never heard of the AIDS quilts. They have now lived for 10 or 12 years with medication and not being so common for it being a death sentence that it's a manageable disease, and they don't realize that there was a time it was an epidemic. So how do you feel about us making sure these young people know the story behind these quills? They've got to know. They've got to be told. They need to be made aware. They need to be made aware of what they need to do to be safe. We all need to be safe. I have a nephew, which unfortunately, and one of the flyers that was sent out, whether by email or whatever, the picture used in me was from the AIDS service last year. (Editors note Carolyn was featured on the front page of the Tulsa World attending the World AIDS Day memorial service) World AIDS Day. World AIDS Day. And yes, I was in tears. Not having any brothers or sisters. I have a cousin whose youngest son, who is the one of the few white heirs that has unfortunately been forsaken by his father, who I'm happy to say has just been given an opportunity for medication and for help, and he's moved to Hawaii. He is HIV positive. He has AIDS. Full blown. He's stage four. But it's so interesting. I mean, so wonderful, not just interesting, wonderful and makes me so happy to read on Facebook of how he's just gotten back from the hospital and getting help. And they just started his new medication regimen and to have to be able to read and hear him say, instead of having four years to live now with this medication, he's been given 40 years. The progression and the success as we learn and things progress, the advances we are making in medication now that they are finding ways of helping people. As you said, in the early days, there wasn't any help. They tried, they didn't know anything about it. Medications had to be made. I mean they had to find some way, just like finding a cure for the common cold, which I know basically they haven't done. But advances in medicine or any type of advances take time. It takes a lot of preparation. It takes a lot of study. It takes someone 14 �stepping out, whether it be a medical researcher stepping out, taking that extra step to think, well maybe this will work and try. And yes, it is a series of trial and error. And back in the early days, there just wasn't the medicines there. Thank God we have them today. I appreciate you emphasizing. Young people need to see these AIDS quilts and be reminded we still have a high rate of infections among young gay men in Oklahoma. And this concerns me here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. Thank you for challenging me. I want to, as we come to a close, I want to show this very, very elaborate picture of you dressed and very formally. And tell me about this picture and why you're dressed in such a dapper outfit. Oh, dapper. But the old term for a big look. This picture was taken. I was asked to sit and have my portrait made. This was when I was director of the Women of Council Oak. I was the founding director. I was given the opportunity to be the founding director of an all-women's group. Well, no, we weren't an all-lesbian group because we had straight women. We tried to be an open group. And bisexual women. And bisexual women, inviting everyone to come in. And I think you had some transgendered women in that choir also that I'm aware of. No, not in the early days. Okay. But we were very open. And yes, we would have accepted some transgendered women. I probably would have had to find a few. But it was just a place for women to come together and sing. The Council Oak Men's Choir, which I admired for many, many years. I still admire and they have been great things and traveled and represented Tulsa. Some wonderful musicians, wonderful friends. Were you involved when they had the joint choir and did the Sing for the Cure, came together for Breast Cancer? That was how the formation of Women of Council Oak started. I heard about it from word, spread word, mouth, inviting women to come and join. And we did, we rehearsed. And it was wonderful. And because we did have the women, sorry, thought I had to shut up. I'm sorry. Anyway, the women came together. And not only was the Council Oak Men's Choir the women that we rounded up here in Tulsa or 15 �surrounding areas. There was one woman, a man and a woman that drove from, shoot, I can't think of the name. Anyway, they drove great distance, drove in to sing. Then the Turtle Creek Men's Choir from Dallas and the Women's Choir from Dallas drove up and joined. And we had this massive choir. At the Performing Arts Center? At the Performing Arts Center. And it was truly wonderful. And the story, the Women's Choir of Dallas is the one that originally created the score Sing for the Cure. They had it commissioned. And it tells the wonderful different stories, different women, different stages of women's lives as they were diagnosed with cancer. And sometimes the family expressions, what they went through or getting a sentence or the diagnosis by the, a lot of times it was like a sentence to be told, a woman to be told that no, you're not responding to any kind of medicine or treatment. It's going to be automatically loss of breast. And anyway, if you haven't read that book, I would suggest that you do read it because it is a wonderful story. And lesbians have a higher rate of breast cancer than most women. Do you remember the thoughts of how the gay choruses were stepping outside of the normal causes like AIDS and equal rights, and we were aligning with the straight people finding a common goal to support? What was your thoughts about that being a part of that? Sing for the Cure was very special for me in that this same cousins whose son is AIDS positive, has AIDS, his mother died from cancer. Breast cancer. She had breast cancer was diagnosed while he was in the military. They were sent back stateside, which I had known her all through school. And having lost her and singing for her funeral was very special, very hard emotionally. But yet I wanted to do Sing for the Cure in her remembrance. And that was my passion for doing that. Music has wonderful life. I mean, it's opened up so many things for me. I can go on with all the, which we won't even have time to go into any of that. But music is such an opportunity. So many different areas. I don't care what your desire is. I mean, what kind you like. You can always find something that can be meaningful. And I believe me, I don't understand all the rap music. But all I can say is that it is important to the young people. It says something to them. Carolyn, it has been incredible today to be with you. You're my prettiest guest. Because up to this time, I've always been interviewing men. Now, you don't have them on today, but you are known across Tulsa for your fingernails during Pride. And what do you always have your fingernails done? How do you have them done for Pride? 16 �My fingernails are always done in the rainbow colors. And you not only share those with Tulsa. You go to Wichita. You went to Wichita. Travels regionally. Now, Carolyn, there's something I want us to, as we close, I want us to think about. And this just came to me. You were an educator for decades. How do you feel when you're in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center visiting with me yesterday and one of your former students from Locust Grove is sitting around the corner in his office and comes in and now he's an adult, openly gay man serving on the Board of Oklahomans for Equality seeking equal rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered Oklahomans and working closely with our allies. How does that make you feel? He walked in. I just want to share with our audience. He walked in. He saw you. You just grabbed each other. He was in my office. And you didn't realize that Matthew DeCamp was right around the corner. How does that make you feel to know that your students have grown up and taken their place in this fight for equality? It makes me very proud. And I'm just so happy they had the opportunity to be able to go out and say, yes, I'm gay, I'm lesbian, I am proud of who I am because I was not given that opportunity. I wish I had known. I wish I could have encouraged more people. And speaking of that, and former students, there's a young man in Dallas who, which when they sing for the Cure in Dallas, and we had gone out after rehearsal to one of the bars, Sue Ellen's, and was sitting out there and all of a sudden, sitting there with a former high school classmate that is a lesbian, yes, and with my partner and the others that are someone else that had gone down with us to sing, and all of a sudden in the open area you hear, granny! And it echoes out. And it was one of my former students, a younger man, who was part of the group that called me granny from the time I was in my 30s and 40s, many years ago. But, and yes, he had gone through school, graduated from Locust Grove, got married, had children, came around and realized that he wasn't happy in that situation and decided to come out as a gay man and to be so accepted and to know that we could still sing. And one of his statements, and I was, why didn't you tell me back then? And I'm saying, oh honey, there was no way I could have. Yes, I knew back then. Certainly he had all of the signs, he was very fashionable, he didn't catch his hair, he always had to have a certain type of shoes or he had to be dressed a certain way. He was very fashion conscious. Oh, extremely fashion conscious. Which is not always an indication that someone's gay. And I'm going to point that out, not anything else, but back several years ago it was, you had to have a certain shirt or you had to wear a certain kind of, you had to wear certain name brands to be considered fashionable or be part of the in-group. But he kept saying, why didn't you tell me back then? 17 �And I'm saying, honey, I couldn't, there was no way. I couldn't even say that I was gay or lesbian. It would have been my job. I could not have mentioned it in the classroom. And now, as I said, the first time I heard him say there was a gay-straight alliance in school, I was so excited they could even talk about it in school. And today in Tulsa Public Schools and in Union Public Schools, openly gay teachers can, if they see a young gay student, they can make sure they're aware of where they can get helps and resources. And you may have a gay teacher talking with one of their gay students about, are you going to Pride this weekend? How does that make you feel to see that we've come that far where the teacher can actually now help their students as they think about their life and their career and being open about who they are? How does that make you feel? I wish I had the opportunity. I think it is wonderful because there's enough pressure still, particularly here in Oklahoma, from the mindset of our people that it's still wrong. You can't be gay. You can't be a lesbian. You're never going to amount to anything. All the negative things that are done. There is no support, or there has been in the past, so little support for gay and lesbian students. And to have someone knowing that you could go and say, hey, I think I may be gay, even to question. Have that opportunity. And it's much the same way, it's like, well, and I'm going to get back into the religious part of it, but to have the churches where you could go and say, I may be, I'm really attracted to this person of the same gender, and say, it's okay, you can still be a Christian, or you can still be a member of the faith. And it's the same thing in school, just to have that person knowing that you can go and talk to them about anything. That was what I always tried to prove to my students. I don't have to agree with what you're doing. I don't have to, I know some of the consequences, but yes, unfortunately you're going to be like the two-year-old that has to go up and touch the stove when it's on and learn that hot and no means that it's going to hurt if you touch it anyway. You've got to have that experience. And just to know that there might be a gay or lesbian teacher that they could go and talk to about, I think I might be, or I'm really attracted, or I had this problem because of. I'm so inspired by the bullying, because there for so many years has been so much bullying, and so anti-bullying. I want us to get that started. I mean, it's the same thing like our early years, when people, whether it be the living with AIDS, so many deaths caused by AIDS, or just the bombing of churches back in the early days. Gay churches. Gay churches. It had to start somewhere, but it's also had to come around and someone had to stand up and say, stop. And the young people now have so much, fewer things, but yet the opportunity to say, no, that's wrong. We had to listen to the queer or the off-color jokes about queer, about 18 �homosexuality, about lesbianism. We couldn't say anything, and now it's like, no, no, no. I find that offensive. And we must do more for our kids who are being bullied in schools. Definitely. Loss of one life is too many. Carolyn, thank you so much for being with us here today on Vintage. You are a vintage. You are a special creation, greatly treasured, and you'll never go out of fashion, right? Thank you so much for being with us today, and thank you, Bob, for being our translator today, for those of you who are hearing impaired. We've been broadcasting from the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, and this has been Carolyn Wiley, our special guest. You didn't have to keep me going. You didn't go yes or no. I just loved you. All right, thank you so much. Addendum: Carolyn Wiley Oral History Interview May 26, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Carolyn Wiley on May 26th, 2026. Today we're interviewing Carolyn and I want her to talk a little bit about her experience with the Imperial Court. Carolyn, what was your official title with the Imperial Court? Carolyn Wiley: With the court itself, I never had a title other than when I, after I ran for, as a candidate to be the Empress for all of Oklahoma. And that meant that I was represented as when we went to court functions, I could be recognized as the head of the Imperial Court of Oklahoma Toby Jenkins: The Empress of all Oklahoma. And do you remember that year? Carolyn Wiley: I'm thinking it's around 65 to 70. Toby Jenkins: So would it have been about like 2013 and 2014? Carolyn Wiley: Before that. Reign VI Absolute Empress Carolyn “Cougar Anne” Wiley 19 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Right. I'll research that and find out for sure. And we'll make sure that's a part of your record. Carolyn Wiley: Well, to find when I took Bill [Francisco] and we went to New York. Toby Jenkins: Well, I know when that was. That was in 2019. I just was trying to remember when you were crowned the Empress of all Oklahoma. I was there. So I remember that night when you were crowned. It was at the Hyatt Regency Hotel. And you had, do you remember you had fallen and broke your arm? Carolyn Wiley: Yep. Toby Jenkins: And you went ahead through the whole coronation with a broken arm and did not go to the hospital. Carolyn Wiley: Until after it was over, we had things to do. Toby Jenkins: People to see. And so what were your duties as Empress? Carolyn Wiley: Just to represent the court wherever I went. Whether it be here in, now Sand Springs. Tulsa, Oklahoma City. To say nothing of all the courts I visited in Texas, there are nine courts in Texas and I went to all of them. Toby Jenkins: And so for our viewers, can you tell us what the Imperial Court is and what its mission is and how it was started? Toby Jenkins: It was started by Jose… Carolyn Wiley: No, it was started by Kris Kohl. Toby Jenkins: Well, here in Oklahoma, we're talking about the Imperial Court National. It was started by a person in California. Carolyn Wiley: Yeah, Jose's great poohpah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I'll look that up. So you became the Empress, and so if you went to other courts. Carolyn Wiley: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Traveled to other cities, you represented Oklahoma. Carolyn Wiley: Traveled everywhere from New York to LA. 20 �Toby Jenkins: I think you used to go to the Equality Gala, didn't you? And have to represent the Imperial Court at the Equality Gala? Carolyn Wiley: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Jose Sarris founded the Imperial Court System in 1965 in California to raise money for LGBTQ activism. And he was known as Mama Jose or is that what it was? Mama? He had been the first openly gay candidate to run for public office in 1961. Carolyn Wiley: No, he was just how he did it. Toby Jenkins: The Widow Norton. And he founded that. He was a performer. And it's modeled after the European court system. So it has kings and queens and empresses and ladies and lords and dukes and duchesses. And Carolyn was an empress for Oklahoma. Carolyn Wiley: Okay, I was Empress Number Six. When the court was founded, I was number six to run for the top position. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and Kris Kohl founded it. Famous drag queen here in Oklahoma who now lives in Missouri. So we talked a little bit about how you would travel to other places. Tell us about when you and Bill Francisco went to New York City for the 50th anniversary of Stonewall and the New York City pride parade. Talk about that. Carolyn Wiley: Oh, wow, what a weekend. Of course, the main basic part was: just what do you take? I mean, there's just so many clothes and so much. Of course, being a part, as a part of being of the court system, you were required, or it was preferred, that you wore a crown, that you had a sash or some sort of identification where you were from. Basically I just went as myself and they couldn't figure out I was from Oklahoma. Heck with them. I didn't have my Texas drawl which I could have, and I have used the drawl a few times when I'd go to Texas to some of the different court functions which I still miss now. Toby Jenkins: You were in New York City and you were with Bill Francisco, I was there. Many people in New York City for that event, oh, just a few thousand. Toby Jenkins: Talk about a million closer. Carolyn Wiley: Yeah, that too. But as far as going to the reception itself, it was held at one of the big hotels. They had made that all, made all those arrangements, so everything was set up for it and you just had to introduce yourself or let it be known who you were. So you get in and, as Empress, I got to say I'm here. 21 �Toby Jenkins: Did you get to visit the Stonewall Bar and the Stonewall Memorial? Carolyn Wiley: Oh, that's where it was held. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, oh, very good. Were y'all in the parade? Did you get to be in the parade? Carolyn Wiley: No, but we walked several blocks just to go so that we could see it and we had gone into... I mean Bill and I had gone from the hotel down to that place. There were people everywhere, they had all the roads, all the streets blocked off Bill had forgotten something, left something in his room, so we had to go back to the hotel and get his room key so he could go get whatever and just had a good time. I think I of course got to meet people like I would meet anyone new, just doing what came naturally. Toby Jenkins: Representing Oklahoma, the Imperial Court of Oklahoma. And you were there for that 50th anniversary. Your thoughts about being there at the 50th anniversary of Stonewall. What were your thoughts about that? Being a person from Oklahoma who had been a schoolteacher, who did work with young people, what were your thoughts about how significant that moment was? Carolyn Wiley: It was actually a wonderful moment and many thoughts went through your mind just to know that you were in New York, that I was in New York, not necessarily that I was representing Oklahoma, but knowing I was representing Oklahoma, but just to be there. And, of course, Queen Mother was there. It was so good and they had different people and from all age groups. They're talking about their experiences within the LGBT etc. community and what they had done. There was one young man there and he was like in high school, representing and he had just done wonderful things. It was set up towards running or we were trying to represent just like they did in England. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, European Court. We were joking that Empress Wiley, I guess is Carolyn Wiley, Empress Six. We think she looks a lot like Queen Elizabeth when she wears her crown. So is it heavy? Carolyn Wiley: No, not really. After you're sitting in a court function, whatever it is, wherever you are, it gets heavy after a while. Toby Jenkins: Who made your crown? Do you remember? 22 �Carolyn Wiley: No, I ordered it out of the booklet where you could get crowns. Toby Jenkins: So it wasn't somebody that made it special for you? Carolyn Wiley: No. Toby Jenkins: All right. So you were talking about being in New York City for Stonewall and the Imperial Court and you got to meet a lot of people. Any other thoughts about that moment in 2019 when Bill Francisco, who I guess we would call him your sidekick. He was your what? Carolyn Wiley: My escort. Toby Jenkins: Your escort. He was your escort. I think they call themselves royalties, whenever they have an escort, they call them their consort. He was your consort. Carolyn Wiley: Yeah, okay. We did a lot of consorting around. Toby Jenkins: So your thoughts about the Imperial Court, do you stay in touch with those folks? Do they come see you sometimes? Carolyn Wiley: There are a few of them that I do see quite often. I know we had a coronation, although it's been about almost a year since I went. It was just good to see people all over. I mean, that's one of the functions as even a current or a past Imperial Court member. You get to go and you get to see all these people that travel from all over. They've been invited throughout the years or however long it's been. Hopefully your royalty, the current or past members of Emperor and Empress do travel and get to go and meet other people and invite them to your coronation. Toby Jenkins: What do you feel like the strongest, most important part of the court system is, the Imperial Court? Why do you feel like it's so important to the LGBTQ community? Carolyn Wiley: Well, as I said, the Imperial Court was set up to invite people or get to know people from all over the world, from wherever. They come in and they get to tell you a little bit about their court system and invite you to their facilities. And the one invitation that I got was...actually several times, but to go to their coronation and be with their people was Hawaii. And I never got to go to Hawaiian coronation. But I certainly got to know some of their people very well. 23 �Toby Jenkins: But you traveled all over the country, didn't you? I mean, you went from coast to coast, because you went to California, didn't you? Carolyn Wiley: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: And you went to New York, so that's coast to coast. Carolyn Wiley: Well, it was just what was available at the time of what was scheduled. I mean, everything is set up throughout the year, so you get to pick and choose where you want to go or where you want to go. Toby Jenkins: Now, do you feel like it was helpful as we all are fighting for equality even harder today, because we may lose it? Did you feel it was important for you to build strong relationships with other states, other cities, other areas? Carolyn Wiley: Well, particularly those close by to Oklahoma here, because it was so easy to hop in the car and away I go. Knowing there are seven courts within the state of Texas, which is a good-sized amount of property, to make all seven courts and their coronations was a great experience. Toby Jenkins: So, as we finish, I wonder, do you have any message for your friends who are still in the Imperial Court, those who come after you, the young people who are now the emperors and the empresses? Do you have a message for young people today that you'd like to give them? Carolyn Wiley: Yes, be active and don't ever feel like you're meeting a new person, because it's only by meeting new people that you get to make new friends. And personally, I would say one of my greatest experiences was being a member of the Imperial Court and traveling all over. Because not only did I make all seven courts in Texas, I've been to California, Colorado, Arizona. I got to go around. Toby Jenkins: Well, thank you so much for making time with us today and that we got to see Empress Six with her crown on. Carolyn Wiley: Oh, yeah. Woppie. Toby Jenkins: It's May 26th, 2026, in Sand Springs, at the palace of Empress Six, Carolyn Wiley. Carolyn Wiley: Also known as the nursing home, but it's okay. Yeah, and away I go. 24 �Toby Jenkins: So we were talking about how hard we are fighting. We just didn't ever dream we would have to fight so hard for our rights again. What were your thoughts? You said something that was really profound. Carolyn Wiley: Wow, I said something profound. No, never did we realize, and even I at my age, which is getting closer to 80 all the time, never did I realize, even in my advanced age as one of the older members of the Imperial court system here in Oklahoma, that, as you said, everything is toward the younger people, getting them involved. And yes, we want to get them involved because we want someone to carry it on. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but we've got such a hostile government that's trying to take away our rights again. And you said, what did you say about that? Carolyn Wiley: I don't know, what did I say? I forgot. Toby Jenkins: You told us that we're just going to have to keep fighting, and you're willing to fight even at your age. Carolyn Wiley: You bet. Always willing. I can’t get around as much as I used to, but it's like, get out of my way, I am coming through. Toby Jenkins: Very good. So we've got to keep fighting, don't we? Carolyn Wiley: We must keep fighting. There are too many people involved. It would impact them, with them not even being able to fight. We must go ahead and fight and win our battles. 25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2009-2010; 2026] Carolyn Wiley Interview Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins in 2009 or 2010 as part of the Vintage Series of interviews, alongside an addendum interview recorded on May 26, 2026. <strong>Video available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Born in Duncan, Oklahoma, Carolyn graduated from Walters, Oklahoma High School in 1963. In 1969, she graduated from the Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts in Chickasha. She begin a teaching career at Madison High School in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, followed by teaching stints in Duncan and Locust Grove, Oklahoma. While in Locust Grove, she begin commuting to Tulsa to become involved in the LGBTQ+ community and was active in Metropolitan Community Church. She was the founding director of the women’s choral group, Women of Council Oak, which later became Sisters in Song. She discusses her involvement with the AIDS Quilt and other outreach in support of those dealing with HIV.<br /><br />Physical tapes not yet located. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Toby Jenkins, Carolyn Wiley Subject The topic of the resource Carolyn Wiley Oral History Project Vintage Series Interview with Addendum Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource c. 2009-2010; May 26, 2026 AIDS AIDS Quilt AIDS/HIV available at Center Carolyn Wiley HIV HIV/AIDs interview Metropolitan Community Church NAMES Project NAMES Project quilt OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Sisters in Song Toby Jenkins transcript video Vintage Vintage Series Women of Council Oak https://history.okeq.org/files/original/0d426be7c4cbee728bc6662809a1c1e6.pdf 6b7bcb0c286cb5c7ddf8bc5b88622c10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vernon Jones Obituary Description An account of the resource Transcript:<br /><br /> <p>Vernon Leon Jones, 88, of Tulsa, Oklahoma, left this earthly plane to be with his late partner Phil Wiley, on February 5^th, 2024.</p> <p>He was born in Oklahoma, on May 3^rd, 1935. As a gay man, born and raised here, Vernon’s chosen family is vast. He is survived by Hayward Jones, Nekesha Jones, JaKobe Jones, Sue Davis, Fred Hilliard, Arlowe Clementine, Mason Thomas, Rey Thomas, and so many other individuals that claimed Vernon as their friend, family, and elder.</p> <p>Vernon was an active learner, even in his later years. He was always working to understand the world around him and was eternally hopeful for a better world. He was a strong advocate for marginalized peoples and was particularly committed to Queer and Black Liberation.</p> <p>Vernon was a clear Taurus. He was intelligent, dependable, logical, honest, and generous. Vernon spent most of his life focused on making his community better. He was a holder of receipts. A maker of spreadsheets. A true community historian and archivist.</p> <p>Vernon was dedicated to making people safer, both in his career in emergency management and his activist work in the fight against AIDS. He was not a stranger to controversy and was unrelenting in speaking his truth and the truth of the people he loved.</p> <p>In the years before his death, Vernon worked hard to ensure that the legacy of LGBTQ activism in Tulsa was properly recorded and preserved for current and future generations. His substantial archive is now housed in Oklahoma State University’s Archives. This collection will be witnessed by researchers and community members for years to come.</p> <p>Vernon was a connector. He worked hard to bring people together and was always willing to give someone support that needed it. Even in his death, he is connecting individuals over their shared love and respect for him and his life.</p> <p>Vernon fought hard for his community and the legacy of his late partner Phil Wiley. Anyone who knew Vernon was graced with stories of Phil’s life and legacy as well as their love for one another.</p> <p>In lieu of flowers, we ask that you remember Vernon by learning something new, taking a stand on social issues that are important to you, and keeping his life and legacy alive through storytelling.</p> <p>Vernon’s memorial service will take place March 1^st<span> </span>at 11 AM at Butler-Stumpff &amp; Dyer Funeral Home (<a href="https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&amp;&amp;p=bfe3dfa29743f8d2JmltdHM9MTcwODY0NjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0xYTQ3OGQzZC1hYmNmLTYxMWUtMDhjNC05ZjI0YWFiYTYwNDUmaW5zaWQ9NTc0Nw&amp;ptn=3&amp;ver=2&amp;hsh=3&amp;fclid=1a478d3d-abcf-611e-08c4-9f24aaba6045&amp;u=a1L21hcHM_Jm1lcGk9MTIzfn5Vbmtub3dufkFkZHJlc3NfTGluayZ0eT0xOCZxPUJ1dGxlci1TdHVtcGZmJTIwJTI2JTIwRHllciUyMEZ1bmVyYWwlMjBIb21lJTIwJTI2JTIwQ3JlbWF0b3J5JnNzPXlwaWQuWU43MDl4MTIzMDIxMzUmcHBvaXM9MzYuMTU2OTEzNzU3MzI0MjJfLTk1Ljk2MTc5OTYyMTU4MjAzX0J1dGxlci1TdHVtcGZmJTIwJTI2JTIwRHllciUyMEZ1bmVyYWwlMjBIb21lJTIwJTI2JTIwQ3JlbWF0b3J5X1lONzA5eDEyMzAyMTM1fiZjcD0zNi4xNTY5MTR-LTk1Ljk2MTgmdj0yJnNWPTEmRk9STT1NUFNSUEw&amp;ntb=1">2103 E 3rd St, Tulsa, OK 74104</a>).</p> PDF Text Text 1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory  Vernon Leon Jones May 03, 1935 - February 05, 2024 Share:    Obituary Event & Services Charities & Donations Gallery Videos https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 1/4 �1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory Guestbook Send Flowers Obituary Vernon Leon Jones, 88, of Tulsa, Oklahoma, left this earthly plane to be with his late partner Phil Wiley, on February 5th, 2024. He was born in Oklahoma, on May 3rd, 1935. As a gay man, born and raised here, Vernon’s chosen family is vast. He is survived by Hayward Jones, Nekesha Jones, JaKobe Jones, Sue Davis, Fred Hilliard, Arlowe Clementine, Mason Thomas, Rey Thomas, and so many other individuals that claimed Vernon as their friend, family, and elder. Vernon was an active learner, even in his later years. He was always working to understand the world around him and was eternally hopeful for a better world. He was a strong advocate for marginalized peoples and was particularly committed to Queer and Black Liberation. Vernon was a clear Taurus. He was intelligent, dependable, logical, honest, and generous. Vernon spent most of his life focused on making his community better. He was a holder of receipts. A maker of spreadsheets. A true community historian and archivist. Vernon was dedicated to making people safer, both in his career in emergency management and his activist work in the fight against AIDS. He was not a stranger to controversy and was unrelenting in speaking his truth and the truth of the people he loved. In the years before his death, Vernon worked hard to ensure that the legacy of LGBTQ activism in Tulsa was properly recorded and preserved for current and future generations. His substantial archive is now housed in Oklahoma State University’s Archives. This collection will be witnessed by researchers and community members for years to come. Vernon was a connector. He worked hard to bring people together and was always willing to give someone support that needed it. Even in his death, he is connecting individuals over their shared love and respect for him and his life. Vernon fought hard for his community and the legacy of his late partner Phil Wiley. Anyone who knew Vernon was graced with stories of Phil’s life and legacy as well as their love for one another. In lieu of flowers, we ask that you remember Vernon by learning something new, taking a stand on social issues that are important to you, and keeping his life and legacy alive through storytelling. https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 2/4 �1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory Vernon’s memorial service will take place March 1st at 11 AM at Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home (2103 E 3rd St, Tulsa, OK 74104). ABOUT US “We will always be kind and we will never take advantage of you or your family at your saddest time” is our promise to you. General Price List BUTLER-STUMPFF & DYER FUNERAL HOME & CREMATORY  2103 E 3rd St Tulsa, OK 74104  (918) 587-7000  info@butler-stumpff.com  Available 24/7 https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 3/4 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2007] Vernon Jones Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s interview of Vernon Jones conducted on February 28, 2007. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong><strong> </strong>Vernon was born on May 3, 1935, near Tulsa and passed on February 5, 2024 in Tulsa. He enlisted in the Air Force and served for four years in the military in cryptographic operations, including two years stationed in Japan. After thirteen years of marriage and two daughters, Vernon came out to his wife and family. He and his partner, Phil Wiley, were co-founders of the Tulsa Gay Alliance in 1971, and they volunteered with the Tulsa Suicide Prevention Hotline. He worked in emergency management. In the mid-1970’s. He served on a task force within the Tulsa Human Rights Commission to research consideration of ordinance changes to address LGBT discrimination. Vernon left his archives to Oklahoma State University. A copy of his October 10, 2021, interview as a part of OSU’s Diverse Gender and Sexuality of Oklahoma Oral History Project is included in Vernon’s oral history folder at OkEq. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 28, 2007 Subject The topic of the resource Vernon Jones Oral History Project Interview from February 28, 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Belmonte, Vernon Jones, Lindsey Killebrew, Matthew D. Williams, Dennis Neill 2007 available at Center Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home Butler-Stumpff and Dyer Butler-Stumpff and Dyer Funeral Home Dennis Neill interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Lindsey Killebrew Matthew D. Williams Matthew Williams Obituaries Obituary OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript Vernon Jones Vernon Leon Jones video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Kelly Kirby Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 6, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on May 6, 2006. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Born on November 25, 1953, he graduated from high school in 1971. Faced with a draft number of 25, Kelly joined the Air Force in 1972. While very closeted during his service, while based in California, he would make trips to Santa Barbara and a few other locations to some bars and on occasion attended the Metropolitan Community Church in Santa Barbara as he was dealing with his sexual orientation. After leaving the military in 1975, he returned to Kansas and got involved with a cult Christian Group, The Way. In 1977, he married and they had 4 children. In 1980, they moved to Oklahoma City, he soon started a CPA practice and by 1986 relocated to Tulsa. He joined Homosexuals Anonymous as part of dealing with his conflicts with sexuality, family and religion. In 1990, his wife and Kelly agreed to separate and eventually divorce. He became an HIV tester with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights in 1991 and discusses his further involvement with the gay community and TOHR, serving on the board in the early 1990s and treasurer, president and later serving as TOHR’s accountant. He became active with the local PFLAG Chapter and with the support of Nancy McDonald, joined the national board of PFLAG in 1993. He reviews the difficult environment in the 1993-1994 time period when the Tulsa Human Rights Commission proposed some ordinance changes to address LGBTQ discrimination. Subject The topic of the resource Kelly Kirby Oral History Project Interview from May 6, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kelly Kirby, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 AIDS/HIV Air Force available at Center discrimination HIV HIV testing HIV/AIDs Homosexuals Anonymous interview Kelly Kirby Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Metropolitan Community Church Nancy McDonald OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) PFLAG PFLAG Tulsa Chapter The Way TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights HIV Testing video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Lamont Lindstrom Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 15, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on April 15, 2006. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Lamont was born in Oakland, California on May 11th, 1953. At Berkeley, he completed a BA, MA and PhD in anthropology. Prior to spending a year in Australia on a National Science Foundation fellowship, Lamont married. They later relocated to Memphis for a teaching position and then joined the faculty at the University of Tulsa in 1982. In 1984 and 1985, he worked in Hawaii, returned to Tulsa and his wife and Lamont had 3 daughters. By 1994, he became more focused on his interest in same-sex relations. He has been in a long-term interracial relationship and discusses some of the challenges of segregation within the gay community. In 1996 he became involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, including serving on the board in the 2000s. Subject The topic of the resource Lamont Lindstrom Oral History Project interview from April 15, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lamont Lindstorm, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 available at Center interview Lamont Lindstrom Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript segregation TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/50c75d314ecd3bfe576df8fa1e4a818c.mp4 1cd0a806c5b45b06b12b8f2d5493d4a0 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/f1f040d517ee58dfd79531909e7a503c.pdf c50d91cd143acf3b75830c770059e040 PDF Text Text oklahomans for equality Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Leslie Penrose Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte Date: March 31, 2006 Transcribed By: Matthew Warren Transcript Edited by Dennis Neill - December 27, 2025 Restrictions: Interviewee requested - NIA. Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproiect@okeg.org �LGBT History Project 03/31/2006 Interview of Leslie Penrose by Laura Belmonte Laura: It is Friday, March 31 2006 and we are at the Community of Hope Church with Leslie Penrose for today's interview. Leslie, let's just start with some basic biographical information. When were you born, what was your family and education like and those sorts of things? Leslie: I was born in Amarillo, Texas in 1951 into an oil field family. And I grew up all over the Midwest and lived in almost every state west of the Mississippi. I went to 18 different schools between kindergarten and col lege. Roots are something I long for and moving is something I do well. Although, in my adult life I have lived in Tulsa since 1979 and really do feel like I'm establishing roots here and 2 �that this is home. Although my husband and I have moved to like 5 different houses so we still practice the moving thing. Laura: Did you have any brothers and sisters? Leslie: I did. I had two younger brothers and a younger sister so I was the oldest of four: and they're all still living. My dad is dead but my mother is still living. Laura: And where did you go to college? Leslie: T.U. for my undergrad degree in Religion. I got my Masters of Divinity at Phillips Theological Seminary in Tulsa. Laura: And you mentioned you are married, how long have you been? Leslie: 35 years. I got married 6 months out of high school. He was in the Marine Corps and I moved to California to take up residence on the Camp Pendleton Marine Core base the day after we got married. Laura: Wow. And do you have children? Leslie: I do. I have two. My daughter, Keli, was born there in California after we had been married about two years. And the other one was born on the East coast. We moved back here after Steve's discharge, for him to go to school at OU. From there we moved Richmond, Virginia for Steve's first job, and my son, Kyle, was born there. Laura: Well let's move on to the issues of the gay community and gay people and such. When was the first time you recall hearing anything about the gay community in Tulsa? Leslie: I'm not sure about hearing about the gay community in Tulsa, but I do know when my own sense of awareness of gay issues happened. In the late 70s I was a banker, and not particularly happy with that. I took a trip to Central America to try and figure things out and find out what I wanted to be when I "grew up." The leader of the group I went with was a gay man. 3 �It was a very transforming trip for me and my relationship with him was very transforming. I experienced him in a very pastoral, religious way. I asked him one day why he wasn't a pastor because he just had such a gift for it. He said, "Well I would be except that the church won't let me. I'm gay." It was not anything that I ever consciously 'knew.' I mean, I must have been aware of it on some level but it had never been part of my consciousness that that was where the church was. And it just blew my socks off. I have continued to maintain a relationship with him across the years. But it was actually that experience and my experience in Central America that drove me to seminaryseeking something beyond the shallow experience of 'church' that I had had growing up. Once I was in seminary, that issue and other issues of justice just kept pushing me to the edge, and I'd quit seminary and start it again, thinking, 'I can't do this church thing because it's way too oppressive.' But there was also something within me that came out of that trip to Central America that said, "My experience there says there's a different way of being church, a way that has integrity and is life giving." I wanted to be a part of THAT way of being church. Laura: Talk to me a little bit about your experiences at Phillips. Why did you decide to go there? Leslie: Well I decided to go there because it was the only seminary available to me. I was a young mother with young kids. I needed a local place. They were just opening their campus in Tulsa when I inquired in 1985, and asked if I wanted to be a part of that very first class that met here in Tulsa. I did. Laura: And you found this a kind of conflicted experience? were they saying about issues of social justice and homosexuality that you had to wrestle with? Leslie: You know I don't know if it was what they were saying as much as it was what the gospel was saying. I think actually the school was pretty mainline and kind of scared to enter into the really tough issues. I had, for most of my What 4 �life, been involved in social issues like nucleai disarmament, immigration, and civil rights for African Americans; but as I began to read the gospel and put things together it became clear to me that something was wrong with saying there are some folks that don't fit into the "salvation plan" or however you want to talk about it. The more I challenged that in my own thinking, the more I needed to involve other people in the dialogue. I was the President of the Student Council at Phillips at that time, and actually challenged them to, for the first time, put gay and lesbian issues on the agenda. I asked the Council to attend a board meeting and requested that Phillips might name itself a safe place for gay and lesbian students. It was not at that time - it was more 'don't ask, don't tell.' Folks were pretty threatened by that first dialogue, but it opened the door and they are now a very affirming place for gay and lesbian students. At about the same time, while I was in seminary, I was a part-time youth pastor at Memorial Drive United Methodist Church. I got a call one day from a friend of mine at St. Johns Hospital. She was a nurse, and she said that there was a young man there and he was dying of AIDS. "He hasn't had any visitors here for over a month. Would you mind co.ming?" I knew nothing about AIDS, but I knew someone shouldn't die with no visitors for a month. So I went, and it was a baptism by fire. When I finally got in to see him (after having to put on full protective clothing and gloves, I asked if I could talk with him and he said "Sure. Who are you?" I told him I was a minister, and he responded, "Oh, you don't even need to bother. I already know everything you have to say. My church has already told me I'm going to hell." It just broke my heart, and I said "I don't believe that." He let me stay a few minutes so we could talk, and when I left I asked if I could come back the next day. He said "yes." I was there everyday for about a week until that young man died. During that time I got to meet a couple of his friends who came by because they had heard he was going to die. They said they had been afraid to visit. And from there I was just 'connected.' It was like all of a sudden, a 5 �gate opened and there were a number of people who needed to deal with their spiritual issues relating to HIV and AIDS. Within a few weeks, I had connected with Dr. Jeff Beal and Ted Campbell... and all of a sudden I was like "the chaplain" for Dr. Seal's office. One day Ted Campbell called me and asked me to do some work with his HIV therapy group. "They have some spiritual issues to deal with", he said. So I went. I was there for about an hour, and it was actually a pretty hostile group at first. Not too willing to talk. They had a few nice questions to ask me, but there wasn't a conversation. And then, right before it was time to go, one of the young men, Jim B, looked at me and said, "I have a question for you. So tell me why it is that God would create somebody and then condemn them to hell. Tell me what kind of God does that." The only response I had was "a God who needs to die." Because that was true for me, the God that they were carrying around with them needed to die. So they invited me back and I went back to that group for several months and worked on theological and spiritual issues with them and about their own belovedness in God's eyes. Laura: How did you become aware of the difficulties that LGBT people faced at Phillips? Leslie: I just became aware that there were a couple of lesbian students there that were not out and were not willing to be out and only shared their story with me because I began to break the silence about the issue and ask those kinds of questions. By just becoming known as a 'safe person', several students shared their stories with me. Laura: Did you, yourself, have people assume you were a lesbian? Leslie: Absolutely, all the time. In fact, when I first started The Community of Hope I intentionally took off my wedding ring. I didn't want the straight community relying on the fact that I was straight to make me safe in their religious settings. Because the people I was working with were not safe in religious settings unless they pretended to be straight, I was unwilling for it to be that obvious that I was straight. Wrestling is a good thing for people ... 6 �Laura: You weren't willing to flaunt your heterosexuality? Leslie: Yeah ... I just wasn't willing for someone else to use it. It just made me furious that that's what made me safe. Laura: So what year did you finish seminary and how did your career trajectory go after that? Leslie: I was ordained in 1989 and I was still on staff at Memorial Drive UMC. In 1990 a young gay couple, both of whom were living with AIDS, started coming to that church. And then another couple came, and another, and so on. The church was fairly receptive to the first two: the tokenism thing was okay with them. But when it became 4 and 6 and 8 and a whole pew of young gay men, most of them with AIDS, the church got more threatened. Then in 1992 while I was in Central America leading a mission trip, the church leaders had these secret meetings and when I got back they told me I needed to leave. They were no longer comfortable with my ministry. Well, in the United Methodist Church that's not how it works. The church doesn't decide when you leave, only the bishop can decide that. So the bishop told them, "You don't decide when she leaves. I do. And she will stay until June when it is the normal time for pastors to leave." So between August of '92 and June of '93, I was in this horribly painful situation of serving this church where a significant number of the people did not want me there, but another significant number did. The church began to split and the pastor, Dr George Warren, got threatened. He wrote letters to two of the LGBT members who had already joined - Mark Vickers and Brad Mulholland informing them that they couldn't do things like go into the kitchen because they had AIDS; and they couldn't teach Sunday school; or read Scripture from the chancel area. I was appalled and they were deeply hurt - again. And so I went to the bishop and said, "I understand that I'm going to be moved in June and that's fine, that's the system. But PLEASE put someone in Tulsa who can be a safe place for these people. We've opened the door now and the care 7 �and acceptance that was promised needs to be provided." After some conversation, the Bishop said, "You need to start that congregation." Well, politically at that time, the United Methodist Church would not support my starting a new congregation that was open and affirming. So the Bishop and I put our heads together. He had just been in Central America studying Liberation Theology; and he knew I often went to Central America. We had both experienced the alternative 'churches' being formed there called Base Communities. It was a model, primarily in the Catholic tradition, where people who feel abandoned by the hierarchy in society and the church, formed small, local communities of justice and spirituality where the people are the church. Occasionally a priest may come and offer the sacraments, but the church is the people. The people are doing the work of nurturing spirituality; the people are doing social justice in their communities. The result is that the people began reading the bible in different ways, and questioning traditional theology. A Base Community made sense for Tulsa. And at the United Methodist Annual Conference in June of 1993 the Bishop of Oklahoma commissioned me to begin a Base Community here in Tulsa ... whatever that might mean. Laura: What was this bishop's name? Leslie: Dan Solomon - a very courageous man. He found $12,000 dollars for me to have a part-time salary for a year, and that's how it started: no place to meet, no office, no funds for advertising or supplies. Nothing except a group of people who were willing. I started by going to several different churches to ask for meeting space. Finally, Centenary United Methodist Church on North Denver, agreed to allow us to meet in the evenings in their basement. So on June 21, 1993 we had the very first gathering of Community of Hope. There were about 50 people at that first gathering - half gay and half straight. No children yet, but we had hopes. There had been a group of 12 or 13 people who had been meeting in my living room for two or three months trying 8 �to figure out what we wanted this church to look like. One important piece was that we were diverse in our membership_gay and straight, racially and age diverse. We chose to use a Rainbow candle as our Christ candle in worship - Christ candles are always white. Not ours - not our candle and not our Christ. Another important piece was that we wanted every aspect of our congregational life to bear witness to our valuesespecially to our belief that every single person is a child of God who deserves love and respect. So we decided that for every dollar we spent on ourselves we would also spend a dollar beyond our walls in some way that supported the marginalized. We've done that now for 13 years, supporting a number of social justice activities and organizations locally, nationally, and internationally. We met there at Centenary for about two months until one evening one of their morning members saw one of our member couples kissing in the parking lot. Within a few weeks, they asked us to leave. Next we rented a little life insurance building on the corner of Yale and Pine, and were there for about two and a half years. We outgrew it, and then we rented a warehouse on 2nd and Utica which we completely gutted and remodeled. It was a wonderful space for us, and we had a deeply rich and vibrant time. In early 1998, the City declared we couldn't stay because our zoning wasn't right for being a church. We suspected there was another agenda, but rather than spend time and energy fighting their ruling, we began to look for another building. We were 5 years old and looking for our 4t h home. Laura: It's a good thing you had the experience ... Leslie: That's right, all of my life - move, move, move. We decided to try and buy a building where we didn't have to worry about being kicked out again. We tried to buy three different church buildings but once they discovered who we were, they refused to sell to us. So finally-you 9 �know if there is anything I regret in my ministry I think this is what it is-we bought the building in the closet. We had one of our members buy it and transfer it to us. It was a deeply painful thing and it was fear that drove us to it: fear that we weren't going to have any place to call home. But I almost wish we hadn't done it, because I think it ended up hurting us in subtle but significant ways. I didn't realize that until a year or so later when I looked back at some of the conflict we'd been experiencing. We had never had conflict in our congregational life, but now some people were acting in strangely dysfunctional ways. I believe, looking back, that it was at least in part, because we had gone back into the closet in order to buy that building. Laura: Let's back up for a moment: I would assume some of this got public attention of some sort. When was the first time you remember gaining attention in the media for your outreach in the GLBT community? Leslie: Actually the Tulsa World did a story in probably 1995 and it was very positive about who we were and the outreach we were doing. That was probably the first time we got attention. I got hate mail regularly right from the beginning, and ugly messages on our answering machine. Some people in the neighborhood where we bought the building, filed complaints about us with the police, that we were "disturbing the peace." But we didn't really get much other publicity until in 1999 when I was brought up on ecclesiastical charges by the United Methodist Church. Then there was lots of it, nationally. Laura: When you were interacting with these leasing agents and realtors, had you been cognizant of laws on housing discrimination not including sexual orientation? Leslie: I think I probably had, but it was that na"ive 'it's not impacting me' kind of awareness. Besides, this was a church and it never entered my mind that you would turn down a whole church! It still just blows me away. Laura: The reason I ask is because we probably looked at 20 different spaces when we rented and that was just 2 years ago. �Leslie: And how painful it is! I mean I'm a straight woman, I had never dealt with any of this before and I had no idea of how painful it could be. Laura: Did you have any sort of dialogue within the church about the dissention that the decision to buy, sort of 'undercover,' was causing? Leslie: No, we never had a dialogue about it. I preached about it and I think that in and of itself - giving it voice - did some of the healing we needed. We named what was going on and that helped to heal the wounds: we admitted that we really messed up and we pledged together that we would not do that again. Laura: In relation to your having this sort of ministry, churches don't exist as little islands, when was the first time you recall encountering something from a different religious bent here in Tulsa? Leslie: In 1990, when I was presented for ordination in the United Methodist Church, I was charged by a colleague with heresy. The specific charge was that I didn't believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ as a literal event. But what was behind that charge was the work I was doing with the LGBT community and how threatened people were by that. Terry Ewing who at that time was an associate minister at Will Rogers United Methodist Church was the person who actually filed the charges, saying that I shouldn't be ordained because I didn't honor the ministerial covenant. It was a deeply painful thing to stand alone on the floor of the Annual Conference at Boston Avenue Church, before the 600-plus ministers in Oklahoma, and have them debate whether or not I was appropriate for ministry. But it ended up being a pretty wonderful thing because it did two things: 1) It made me decide how important this particular ministry was to me, and what I really believed about the Gospel. I decided right then and there that if I couldn't do the ministry that I felt called to do, then being ordained was meaningless. I think that decision on the floor of the conference is what got me through later challenges in my ministry that were much more difficult. 11 �So I ended up being grateful for that initial little baptism by fire. The second thing that incident did was to openly challenge the Oklahoma Conference of ministers to deal with what it was going to mean to have diversity in its midst. The vote that day ended up something like 590 to 17. But the really affirming thing happened later that night, at the public ordination ceremony held at Boston Avenue Church with a full sanctuary. When Bishop Solomon ordains someone, he always invites family and others who are there in support of the person being ordained, to stand as he places his hand on their head and ordains them. That night, when he put his hand on my head, almost the entire room stood. The vast majority didn't know or care about me personally, but they cared about diversity. Standing for me was their way of saying 'we are not going to be a church who says no to diversity.' It was a very powerful moment. Laura: Was this coexistent or did it precede debates on LGBT clergy in the church? Leslie: Oh it was right in the middle of it. The Methodist Church has been debating that for years and years and years. Laura: This obviously was going in a different direction. Leslie: Yes, this wasn't about gay clergy but about what restrictions we place on who we minister to. Laura: How about from non-Methodist clergy in Tulsa? Leslie: Totally mixed. It's kind of always been true for me in Tulsa clergy circles that when I walk into a room, the room kind of divides by where they are on this issue and other kinds of liberal issues. There are a lot of times I become sort of a metaphor for liberal religion or social justice issues in many settings. I've just gotten used to that. Laura: Now who would you construe as having been allies in this? Were there others making similar sorts of overtures to the LGBT community as you were? Or were you the trend setter? 12 �Leslie: I think in 1993 there were not many allies in Oklahoma. Community Hope was the first open and affirming, mainline congregation (other than MCC) in Tulsa. There were certainly clergy friends that I had who were sympathetic but they were not out there pushing the envelope. Laura: After 1993, what happened? Leslie: In 1996 the United Methodist Church passed a law saying that Methodist clergy cannot do same-sex blessings and those unions cannot happen in United Methodist churches. Community of Hope had been doing them all along. We would publish them in our newsletter, and put invitations and pictures out publicly. There was no secrecy. When the law passed, we had a congregational meeting and decided that come what may, we were not going to quit. We started an intentional process of asking ourselves, what is our theology of marriage, and how do we justify what we do? That resulted in writing a document that we adopted as our official position, including the commitment that that we would not stop. At about that same time, Bishop Solomon, who had blessed the start up of Community of Hope, moved to another call, and Oklahoma was assigned a new bishop: Bruce Blake. Bishop Blake said immediately and clearly that I must stop performing gay unions. I responded that I can't do that. A kind of 'dance' started then with the Oklahoma Conference. COH continued hosting holy unions and I continued officiating at those services. The conference leadership began asking for print copies or videos of services, and we'd send them. They'd respond, "you can keep doing this part but you can't wear your stole ( official clergy wear) .... Then ... 'you can stand with the couple but you can't bless the rings'.... Then, 'you can't say I announce you as wife and wife' or whatever.... We tried dancing with them for awhile because we really wanted it to work-if they were going to move a little and let us do unions, then we could move a little as well and do them differently. So I quit wearing my stole .... Then I 13 �moved to bless the rings before the ceremony and not during it... etc etc. After months of this dance, with more and more restrictions, it just finally became clear that the process had no integrity. It felt like people were being asked to cut off one of their arms or legs. 'Don't kill yourself,' they were saying, 'just cut off a piece of yourself." I went back to the conference leadership and said 'I just can't do this, and we went back to doing full unions.' For awhile there was nothing but silence from conference leadership. Shortly after that, the strangest thing happened. In 1998 there was a holy union in California that a whole group of clergy did collectively instead of as individual clergy. And they asked clergy across the nation to join them by signing on as 'officiates in abstentia'. So I signed on. Some lay person in Eufaula decided that was unacceptable to him, and he filed official church charges against me for having done a holy union in abstentia in January. Channel 11 here in Tulsa did a report on those charges and as part of their story, they got in touch with a couple for whom I had performed a holy union. The couple proudly and innocently, shared a video of their ceremony with the reporter and that night it was on the news. Within days Bishop Blake filed more charges - not just for signing on in abstenia, but for conducting union ceremonies. The national media picked it up .... and it just got to be this ridiculous mess. Bishop Blake dug in his heels and told me that I had three choices: 1) I could stop doing any unions immediately, or 2) I could go to church trial, or 3) I could give up my ordination and leave the United Methodist denomination. It didn't make any sense to me go to trial: I'm was openly guilty and I didn't plan to quit doing the ceremonies. So why would I want to spend time and energy going through that. More importantly, why would I want to drag Community of Hope through a national spectacle. They were already wounded and weary from months and months of threats and intimidation and harrassment. 14 �Knowing w hat might come, I had done my homework about my options, I immediately began to work with the United Church of Christ to t ra nsfer my ordination. The UMC charges had come on February 4, 1999; I transferred my ordi nation orders on March 4 th 1999. That process required that I return my certificate of ord ination to Bishop Blake, which I did. He actua lly sent it back to me with my dismissal scrawled across it in black marker. Laura: And how did all of t his effect the congregation? Leslie: We lost a hu ge number of people. In mid 1998 we were averaging 90-100 in worship. By March of 1999 attendance had dwindled to about 35. One more time the church had said "you're welcome here" but then stabbed them in the back. It broke my heart. I had been in the Methodist chu rch for 15 years as ordained clergy. I had a lot of relationships th ere ... t here was a lot to let go of... . a lot to grieve. La ura: How did you make the overture to the Un ited Church of Christ and how did the change affect the church? Leslie: It was really interesting. The story I told you about going to Central America and the trip leader who was gay - well, as things were heating up in 1998, he wrote to me and said he had joined the United Church of Christ. "That is where you belong," he said. So I went to talk to Russ Bennett, who was pastor of the on ly UCC church in Tulsa. Russ's imm ediate res ponse was 'Of course you belong here!" That week he drove me to Kingfisher to talk with the UCC Committee on Ministry; and he nurtured me through the process of transferring. Laura: You've experienced a lot more first hand homophobia than a lot of gay people I know! So what sort of outreach and progra mmin g was the church doing? 15 �Leslie: Well, COH held its first worship service in June of 1993. In July, we started feeding the homeless once a month. We'd prepare the food together and then take - ---,,,,= it to the Day Center and serve it. We also started volunteering with the GED program in the jails in July. In August, we took 10 of our "companions" (we don't really use 'member' language) on a mission trip to Nicaragua to build a house in a critically poor community. Those are all things we continue to do, plus we sponsor an apartment for DVIS, had a RAIN team for years, we host 3 different AA/NA meetings in our building; and we volunteer with several other social service and non-profit agencies in Tulsa. But it was our ministry with and to those living and dying with HIV/AIDS that both shaped and defined us. From the beginning we've always been at least 25% HIV infected . The core symbol of Community of Hope was a "brokenmade-whole chalice". It was gifted to us during our formation by Ted Campbell who was an HIV therapist. He had found it in a small pottery shop when he visited what used to be East Germany not too long after the wall came down. It's a chalice that incorporates cracked and broken pieces, and yet, still holds the sacramental wine we use in Holy Communion. It is a vessel that has been wounded, but it's woundedness isn't hidden or a thing of shame; but rather a beautiful and blessed part of the whole. Just like each of us - including, and perhaps ESPECIALLY, those who are living with their dying . That chalice ... and the broken-made-wholeness it represents is integral to who we are. That's why it's so important that we - the community - engage in as many ways of serving others as we can. When we become the vessel of healing and hope to others, we find it brings healing and hope to us. And, we also found that people living with HIV often felt like 'victims' or objects of care. Serving others in mission projects switched those roles - the wounded became the healer and that was incredibly empowering. 16 �Laura: You've mentioned Jeff Beal, When was the first time you really encountered the AIDS epidemic? Was it before your ministry? Leslie: I'm sure I'd heard about it but it wasn't a part of my daily life: and I don't think I knew anything about it or the bigotry around it. Not until that nurse called and I met the young man who was dying alone. Laura: What were some of the things you remember about how the community was reacting? Leslie: There was incredible fear - both IN the gay community and OF the gay community. No one knew how you got it and people were afraid to touch anything that someone with HIV had touched. Families didn't know how to react. It was such a big part of my ministry to go into a hospital room or some other setting, and hold hands, hug, give foot rubs - just TOUCH the person who was being treated as an 'untouchable.' When Community of Hope started, we actually developed a whole series of Rituals of Touch that were about affirming the lives and bodies of people who were living with AIDS. And I often found myself modeling for families who loved their son/brother etc. but were afraid and had no idea how to respond. I would hug the person or give them a back rub and talk with the famjly about the myths surrounding the transmission of HIV. It was also incredibly hard to find nursing homes that would take people with AIDS. Home health care was almost impossible for PWA;s (person's with AIDS). Even funeral homes refused to serve people who had died of AIDS. For a long time, Butler Stumpff was the only home in town that would receive their bodies and serve their families... Lots of the funerals were done at Community of Hope because there was no where else to go. In those early years, I often did 2-3 funerals a week. Laura: So you change denominations and go through this searing experience. Did you get national attention and how would you describe that experience? Leslie: Oh a flash in the pan. Jimmy Creach was another Methodist brought up on charges about the same tim~, 17 �and it was in a couple national papers and theological journals. It felt so insignificant compared to what was happening here in my backyard, that I didn't really pay attention to it. Laura: Talk a little more about the local fires. Leslie: The press was willing to reprint whatever people said and that got pretty nasty. I remember one of the news channels came to do a report here at the church, and we were clearing "Methodist" stuff out of the church. Just kind of joking, I said "What in the world are we going to do with 80 United Methodist hymnals." And, of course, that's the quote they chose to put on the air! I got lots of ugly messages: "how can you call yourself a minister and say that you know the bible?" People put hours of work into trying to convince me that I was wrong. But we also got an equal amount of mail that was supportive. I got one card that said, "I will hold my head a little higher because of you. Thank You." That felt pretty amazing. Laura: Tell me about how the church has changed since all of this happened. Any particularly notable events or members over the years? Leslie: Well one relationship I want to note is Phillips Seminary. COH has several professors and students that are a part of our congregation and Phillips has been such a supportive and wonderful institution for us. Dr. Brandon Scott has written a book called "Re-imagine our World" and the last chapter is about Community of Hope, and in particular his relationship with one young gay man who died of AIDS. I'm really grateful that a straight white male in a powerful position is willing and able to look and say "I was really changed by this young man who people said didn't count and didn't matter." It's been so good and life-giving to spend the last five years pouring my energy into creative, healing ministry and not fighting. Those first 7 or 8 years were spent fighting the institution, or at least defending ourselves from it. And now we are truly dancing with our denominational partner in a mutually supportive way. It is 18 �so nice to be able to use our energy for creative things and not fighting institutions. Laura: How has all of this affected your husband and children? Leslie: It affected my children profoundly. They don't go to church and have never been able to find a faith community they trust. They just have no tolerance for hypocracy and are having a hard time figuring out what religious life means to them. My husband was probably more wounded by the stuff with the United Methodist Church than I was, because he felt so powerless. He couldn't do anything about it. All he could do was stand by my side and watch them hurt me ... and he has enough white male in him (exMarine) that he wants to be the knight in shining armor. I've been able to let go of my anger at them, but he just can't. To this day, every time he hears the whole UMC spiel about Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors, he just boils. I'm not angry anymore, and I'm able to name the gifts I received from my time with the Methodists. I had some wonderful years as a Methodist and COH never would have happened without them. But it's been hard for Steve. Laura: There's been a vocal and organized LGBT community for quite awhile in Tulsa, but that hasn't translated to big political names despite the city's size. Why do you suspect that is the case? Leslie: First of all I've seen lots of incredible changes. In 1993 when Community of Hope opened there was nothing for the gay community besides bars. Even like the pride store was inside a bar! The group at TOHR didn't have a home: there were just bars. I'm really grateful that it has become so much more mainstream in Tulsa. As for why, I think it's the same reason Tulsa hasn't progressed more with issues of racism and poverty. I think middle and upper class privilege affects us in ways that keep us from really dealing with issues of marginalization in the longterm way that we need to. We engage in the struggle for a little while, but if change doesn't happen quickly, we have other things to do-we have busy lives and enough privilege that we can move on. 19 �Laura: How has the gay community and the community at large supported you over the years? Can you give me some examples of that? Leslie: Well Nancy McDonald has always been very supportive, financially and in all other ways. People like Marcus Rice, who works at Williams, and Dennis Neill are there to be supportive and let you know that they are behind you. Laura: Is there anything else you'd like to add? If not, I appreciate your time. Leslie: Well I appreciate yours. And I appreciate the gift of the journey. Transcribed by Matthew Warren E~ited by Leslie Penrose, Dec 2026 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Leslie Penrose Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 31, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on March 31, 2006. Born in Amarillo, Texas in 1951, Leslie graduated from the University of Tulsa with a degree in Religion and then a Masters of Divinity at Phillips Theological Seminary in Tulsa. She discusses her marriage, children and work in the LGBTQ+ community as a faith leader and early outreach to those impacted by HIV/AIDS. With the Methodist Bishop’s support, in 1993 she founded the Community of Hope when church leaders at her mainstream church became uncomfortable with her AIDS outreach. Facing continued pressure from the denomination, in 1999 she transferred her ordination to United Church of Christ to continue her ministry to the LGBTQ+ community and support for those living with HIV/AIDS. Subject The topic of the resource Leslie Penrose Oral History Project Interview from March 31, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leslie Penrose, Laura Belmonte, Matthew Warren, Dennis Neill 2006 AIDS AIDS/HIV Community of Hope HIV HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Leslie Penrose OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Phillips Theological Seminary transcript TU United Church of Christ University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Terry Luce Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 27, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 27, 2006. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. </strong>Terry was born in New Jersey in 1933. Served in the 10 military and was in South Korea toward the end of the war. He attended Texas Christian University in Ft. Worth, the University of Maryland and then came to Tulsa in 1968 to join the faculty of the University of Tulsa teaching psychology where he stayed until his retirement in 2005. He became an anti-war activist. In 1976 was asked by then mayor Robert LaFortune to head a task force of the Human Rights Commission exploring if gay people should be protected by city ordinances from discrimination in housing, employment, etc. The one-year study and survey was a ground-breaking effort and received local and national coverage when the report was presented to the Human Rights Commission. With the election of Jim Inhofe in 1978, the work of the Sexual Orientation Taskforce and its recommendations where shelved. In 1993, another committee under the Tulsa Human Rights Commission was formed to add to the work from the 1970s. Attorney Bil Hinkle, co-chair of the committee [Dennis Neill served as the other co-chair] asked Terry to join the new effort, which he did. He discussed the strong negative reaction to the report at the public meetings when it was released. Married to Nancy Moran, Terry was diagnosed with cancer in 2007. He died on November 4, 2020, in Tulsa. Subject The topic of the resource Terry Luce Oral History Project Interview from January 27, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Terry Luce, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 anti-discrimination laws Attorney Bil Hinkle available at Center Bil Hinkle Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill discrimination bans Human Rights Commission interview Jim Inhofe Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Nancy Moran OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Robert LaFortune Sexual Orientation Task Force Terry Luce Texas Christian University transcript TU Tulsa Human Rights Commission University of Maryland University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Jack Waggoner Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 3, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on December 3, 2005. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Born in Western Kansas in 1936, Jack graduated from Pawnee Rock High School and then joined the Navy in 1954. He attended University of Kansas and began his professional career in Kansas City, Missouri and became involved in the gay community. Upon moving to Tulsa, he became an interstate truck driver. In the interview, he discusses the various gay bars, his eleven year relationship with a bartender and other activities and interactions in the Tulsa gay community. Subject The topic of the resource Jack Waggoner Oral History Project Interview from December 3, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jack Waggoner, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2003 available at Center bar life gay bar Gay Bars interview Jack Waggoner Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript University of Kansas video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Janie Reeves Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s interview with Janie Reeves on November 19, 2005. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Janie was born in Denver in 1971. She attended the University of Tulsa and became involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, the predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality. She served as board president in 1991. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 19, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Janie Reeves Oral History Project Interview from November 19, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janie Reeves, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center Board President Janie Reeves Dennis Neill interview Janie Reeves Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript TU Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Bill Bissey Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s November 19, 2025, interview. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Bill was born on July 6, 1932, in Clay County, Illinois and passed on April 10, 2019, in Tulsa. He served in the Air Force and moved with his Tulsa-born wife from Illinois to Tulsa in 1956. Following a divorce, he moved to Houston for his job and entered an eighteen-year relationship until his partner developed HIV and died in 1996. When he returned to Tulsa, he was active with the Prime Timers, the social organization for gay and bisexual men. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 18, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bill Bissey, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center Bill Bissey HIV HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Prime Timers Primetimers transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Trish Spurgin Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 18, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on November 18, 2005. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Trish was born in Tulsa in 1941. [Editor’s note – full name was Agnes Patricia “Trish” Spurgin. She passed away in Tulsa on June 27, 2021.] She attended Western College for Women in Oxford, Ohio. In 1959, she experienced her first same- sex relationship while in college. She returned to Tulsa and attended the University of Tulsa. Trish worked in accounting and collections. Regarding the Tulsa lesbian scene, she discussed the bar life, social activities and the frequent police harassment. She discussed her interactions with her gay brother and observations about lesbians and gay men and her exposure to Tulsa Oklahomans for Equality. Subject The topic of the resource Trish Spurgin Oral History Interview from November 18, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Trish Spurgin, Laura Belmonte, Jensen Bridges, Matthew D. Williams, Dennis Neill 2005 Agnes Patricia "Trish" Spurgin Agnes Patricia Spurgin Agnes Patricia Trish Spurgin available at Center Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill interview Jensen Bridges Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte lesbian Matthew D. Williams Matthew Williams OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript police harassment TOHR transcript Trish Spurgin TU Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Tulsa video Western College for Women in Oxford Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Murrel Wilmoth Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 22, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on October 22, 2005 (Laura misspeaks at the beginning of the interview and says it is the 21st). <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Murrel was born on April 4, 1932, in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. At the age of four, his family moved to Tulsa, graduated from Daniel Webster High School and attended Oklahoma A&amp;M (now Oklahoma State University) for 2 years and then joined the Coast Guard for four years, serving in California. He completed his degree at OSU, then returned to California for seven years before coming back to Tulsa in 1965, after which he started his coming out process. Murrel worked in the Tulsa Planning Commission office, became involved with the Metropolitan Community Church and Prime Timers, an organization for older gay men. He discussed his network of friends and the “don’t ask, don’t tell” environment in Tulsa in the 1970s, 1980s. At age 92, Murrel passed away on February 25, 2025, in Tulsa. His obituary is included in an addendum to his transcript. Subject The topic of the resource Murrel Wilmoth Oral History Project Interview from October 21, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Murrel Wilmoth, Laura Belmonte, Jensen Bridges, Matthew D. Williams, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill interview Jensen Bridges Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Matthew D. Williams Matthew Williams Metropolitan Community Church Murrel Wilmoth Obituaries Obituary OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU Prime Timers Primetimers transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Tay Clare Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 13, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on April 13, 2005. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Tay was born on September 5, 1932. She lived in New York City until her father’s work at American Airlines resulted in a transfer to Tulsa in 1950. Soon upon arriving in Tulsa, Tay attended the University of Tulsa. She described herself as a cultural and social lesbian more so than a sexual lesbian. She discussed the lesbian scene in Tulsa, the bars, sports, relationships and social activities. Also, the various efforts in the 1970s to form LGBT organizations and the Human Rights Commission’s survey and report on sexual preferences and the need for anti-discrimination protections. Tay was one of the organizers of the first Metropolitan Community Church which began by meeting in her home. She discussed Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, including some of her concerns about their focus and training issues around the information line. Tay passed in the 2020s in Tulsa. Subject The topic of the resource Tay Clare Oral History Project Interview from April 13, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tay Clare, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 anti-discrimination laws available at Center Human Rights Commission interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte lesbian Metropolitan Community Church OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Tay Clare TOHR transcript TU Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Tulsa video