1 20 43 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Steve Aberson and Brent Ortolani Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 25, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on July 25, 2004. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Steve was born in Okemah, Oklahoma on July 1, 1959. At age 5, the family moved to Tulsa to be more involved in the local Jewish community. Brent was born in Pittsburg, Kansas but was raised in Coffeyville, Kansas. In the interview, Steve and Brent discussed their early experiences with the gay life in Tulsa and awareness as the AIDS crisis began. Brent discussed his experiences at two universities in a public relations role and involvement with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR), including as president in the early 2000s. Steve talked about some of the prejudices he faces as a Jew and out gay person in the retail business. Both discussed their coming out experiences with family and friends. Steve discussed his volunteer work with the AIDS service organization Shanti, Brent talked about his experience as a volunteer HIV/AIDS educator. Brent reviewed the challenges TOHR faced in the early 2000s. They discussed the rewarding experience of helping raise a transgender high school boy originally from Thailand. Subject The topic of the resource Steve Aberson and Brent Ortolani Oral History Project Interview from July 25, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Aberson, Brent Ortolani, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center Brent Ortolani HIV Education HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDs outreach interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Shanti Shanti Project Steve Aberson TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Lauren Arrowsmith Interview Subject The topic of the resource Lauren Arrowsmith Oral History Interview from April 23, 2026 Description An account of the resource Available for onsite research with permission. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 23, 2026 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Rex Ball Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 30, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 30, 2004. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Born in Oklahoma City in 1934, he attended Oklahoma State University and served as a commissioned officer with the Army Corps of Engineers. Married in 1960, he and his wife had four daughters. In 1986, they divorced and he became involved in the Tulsa LGBTQ+ community when he moved to Tulsa in 1986. As a gay man, he entered into a long-term relationship and continued his work as a well-regarded architect and urban designer. Subject The topic of the resource Rex Ball Oral History Project Interview from January 30, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rex Ball, Laura Belmonte, Allison Richmond, Matthew D. Williams, Dennis Neill 2004 Allison Richmond available at Center interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Matthew D. Williams OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Rex Ball transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Laura Belmonte Interview Subject The topic of the resource Laura Belmonte OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from February 13, 2019 Description An account of the resource Laura was interviewed on February 13, 2019, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender Oral History Project. A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Born in New York, Laura attended the University of Georgia and finished a graduate program in American History at the University of Virginia. In 1996 she joined the faculty 7 at Oklahoma State University as an assistant professor of history and became head of the history department at OSU. For six years starting in 2003, she served on the board and then as president of Oklahomans for Equality and its predecessor, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Later, she joined the national board of The Equality Network and founded The Equality Network. In 2019, she became dean of the Liberal Arts and Human Sciences College at Virginia Tech. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Belmonte, Angus Henderson, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 13, 2019 2019 Angus Henderson available at Center Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Equality Network interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Micki White OkEq Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives Oklahomans for Equality Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Bill Bissey Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s November 19, 2025, interview. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Bill was born on July 6, 1932, in Clay County, Illinois and passed on April 10, 2019, in Tulsa. He served in the Air Force and moved with his Tulsa-born wife from Illinois to Tulsa in 1956. Following a divorce, he moved to Houston for his job and entered an eighteen-year relationship until his partner developed HIV and died in 1996. When he returned to Tulsa, he was active with the Prime Timers, the social organization for gay and bisexual men. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 18, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bill Bissey, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center Bill Bissey HIV HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Prime Timers Primetimers transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Al Carlozzi Interview Subject The topic of the resource Al Carlozzi Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from June 6, 2019 Description An account of the resource Al was interviewed on June 6, 2019, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project. In the interview, Al discusses his early life, service in the Air Force and early outreach to the LGBTQ+ community for mental health. In 2006, he became director of the OSU-Tulsa Counseling Center (now named the Al Carlozzi Center for Counseling) until his retirement in 2019. He has been a long-time consultant with Oklahomans for Equality regarding its counseling services. He collaborated on the book “Transgender and Gender Diverse Persons: A Handbook for Service Providers, Educators, and Families.” A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Al Carlozzi, Angus Henderson, Allison Richmond, Matthew D. Williams, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 6, 2019 2019 Al Carlozzi Allison Richmond Angus Henderson Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project interview Matthew D. Williams Micki White Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project OSU Oral History Project transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Tommy Chesbro Interview Subject The topic of the resource Tommy Chesbro OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from April 24, 2019 Description An account of the resource Tommy was interviewed on April 24, 2019, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Gender and Sexuality in Oklahoma Oral History Project. In this interview, Tommy discusses his early life in Blackwell and Stillwater, Oklahoma, his experiences at Oklahoma State University, and his long-time leader as an HIV educator and counselor. A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tommy Chesbro, Ryan Dyer, Angus Henderson, Ashlyn Ruley, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 24, 2019 2019 Angus Henderson Ashlyn Ruley Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project interview Micki White Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Ryan Dyer Tommy Chesbro transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Bob Cisar and Kirk Holt Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte April 9, 2005. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Bob Cisar was born on February 18, 1942, and grew up in Oklahoma City. Married and then divorced, Bob served in the army as a surgical nurse in Vietnam during the war. In the interview, Bob discusses his career and social experiences in Tulsa, and early involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights and Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. With his partner of twenty-one years, Kirk Holt, was a well-known interior designer until his death on March 10, 2006. Kirk Holt was born on July 2, 1961, in Oklahoma City. He graduated in 1983 from Oklahoma State University with a degree in interior design. Together, Kirk and Bob ran a successful interior design studio and retail operation. Before his passing, Bob worked with Kirk in helping design the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center prior to the 2007 move-in. Kirk lead the design effort in 2017 when the Center underwent a major re-design and served for several years on the Board of Trustees for Oklahomans for Equality. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 9, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Bob Cisar and Kirk Holt Oral History Project Interview from April 9, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bob Cisar, Kirk Holt, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center Bob Cisar Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Equality Center Opening interview Kirk Holt Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OHR OkEq OKEQ Board OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Equality Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) Oklahomans for Equality Board Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Tay Clare Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 13, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on April 13, 2005. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Tay was born on September 5, 1932. She lived in New York City until her father’s work at American Airlines resulted in a transfer to Tulsa in 1950. Soon upon arriving in Tulsa, Tay attended the University of Tulsa. She described herself as a cultural and social lesbian more so than a sexual lesbian. She discussed the lesbian scene in Tulsa, the bars, sports, relationships and social activities. Also, the various efforts in the 1970s to form LGBT organizations and the Human Rights Commission’s survey and report on sexual preferences and the need for anti-discrimination protections. Tay was one of the organizers of the first Metropolitan Community Church which began by meeting in her home. She discussed Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, including some of her concerns about their focus and training issues around the information line. Tay passed in the 2020s in Tulsa. Subject The topic of the resource Tay Clare Oral History Project Interview from April 13, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tay Clare, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 anti-discrimination laws available at Center Human Rights Commission interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte lesbian Metropolitan Community Church OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Tay Clare TOHR transcript TU Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Glenna Cooper Interview Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 31, 2005. Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. In the inteview, Glenna discusses the challenges facing the deaf community and their interactions with the LGBTQ+ community. No tape, done on computer. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 31, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Glenna Cooper Oral History Project Interview from January 31, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Glenna Cooper, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center deaf community Glenna Cooper interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript https://history.okeq.org/files/original/3f257b237fcb28eacc3a53644888ae6c.mp4 b7854c07569e72010538c04ee38ad435 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/dc8193d4ab8cf0eb7f5c31a11315bcfe.pdf a2e2ac0ad4e26f5a886e10f91d43280c PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Anna Dodwell Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte August 1, 2004 OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Edmon Low Library ● Oklahoma State University ©2004 �OKEQ Oral History Project Interview History Interviewer: Laura Belmonte Transcriber: Allison Richmond Editors: Anika Benthem The recording and transcript of this interview were processed at the Oklahoma State University Library in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Project Detail The OKEQ Oral History Project is a series of interviews documenting the rich contributions of LGBTQ community members in the state of Oklahoma, with a particular emphasis on Tulsa and the surrounding area. These interviews were conducted by members of Oklahomans for Equality, formerly Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Legal Status Scholarly use of the recordings and transcripts of the interview with Anna Dodwell is unrestricted. The interview agreement was signed on August 1, 2004. 2 �OKEQ Oral History Project Anna Dodwell Oral History Interview Interviewed by Laura Belmonte August 1, 2004 Tulsa, Oklahoma Belmonte It is Sunday, August 1, 2004, and I’m Laura Belmonte. We are interviewing Anna Dodwell today at my home. Anna, we begin with some really basic stuff. Just tell us your full name and where and when you were born. Dodwell Okay. Anna Dodwell, I was born here in Tulsa, Oklahoma, September 7, 1963. Belmonte Have you lived here your whole life? Dodwell Yes. Belmonte Okay. Tell us a little bit about your childhood and your family background. Dodwell Well, I went to Eisenhower Elementary School and grew up with lots of kids in my neighborhood. We played, and they teased me, and I teased them, and it was just kind of a fairly normal childhood. My father was a plumber, and my mother was the manager of a restaurant for many, many years. I went to Edison Junior High and High School. Went to school with one star, Jeanne Tripplehorn; she’s been in a few movies. Went to—I’ve known her since elementary school. Just had a lot of childhood—close childhood friends. Nothing really significant. I was in Camp Fire for twenty-six years, so it was very special to me. Belmonte Any brothers and sisters? Dodwell I have an older brother and I have—actually three older brothers who are all half-brothers, and then I have a sister, and that’s it. Belmonte That sounds like enough. Dodwell Yeah. Belmonte How have you classified your sexual identity for most of your adult life? 3 �Dodwell To begin with, when I was in high school or even junior high, I knew there was something different, and I didn’t know what it was. I knew that whatever it was, it was strange. I shouldn’t have to like girls. Why should I—why am I liking this? I tried to go with society and decided that I knew that I was a lesbian, but there really wasn’t a name for it. There was no support, zero support, for any teenager, or any adults for that matter, as far as coming out or anything like that. We just kind of tried to do what society says to do. I had a son, and I tried to say, “Well, this is it. This is where I’m supposed to be,” but I was miserable. Belmonte How long have you been out to yourself? Dodwell To myself, I’ve been out probably since I was nineteen or twenty. Belmonte When did you have your first same-sex sexual experience? Dodwell When I was about nineteen, I think, nineteen or twenty, yeah. Belmonte How did you find this woman? Did you meet through a mutual friend? Dodwell In a bar. Belmonte Do you remember what bar? Dodwell Seeker’s Choice. Belmonte Where was that? Do you remember anything about it? Dodwell I don’t remember… Belmonte Terry remembers. (Laughter) Dodwell It was on Admiral, yes. I don’t remember exactly where, but yeah, I picked someone up—well, I guess she picked me up. It was in a little, tiny strip mall. Belmonte Was it predominantly a women’s bar? Dodwell I think so, yeah. That’s all I ever saw in there, really, was women. It was—I do know it was owned by a transgendered man. Belmonte Oh really? Is he still alive? Still live in Tulsa? Dodwell I don’t know. 4 �Belmonte Did you go to this bar again? Dodwell I went occasionally, but the woman was really scary, and I didn’t want to see her anymore. (Laughter) Belmonte We’ve never heard that story. (Laughter) Dodwell She had whips hanging from her wall, and I really didn’t like that. Terry Scared you to death. (Laughs) Belmonte I could see why. Living in Tulsa your whole life, when do you recall having met a gay person for the first time? Dodwell I knew that my nephew was coming out, and he would talk about how gay he was when Rocky Horror was really big. We’d go to Rocky Horror all the time. He was kind of the first gay person that I really was around. He used to correct his lisping in front of the mirror and all that kind of stuff. Other than that, he just—he was about the only person that I can think of; everybody else I knew was straight. Belmonte You heard of Seeker’s Choice how? Do you recall when you first began to hear about places where gay people went in Tulsa? What were some of those places other than Seeker’s Choice? Dodwell I believe I called the helpline. I think I called the helpline to find that out. I either did that or I looked in the phonebook, but I think it was the helpline. I can’t recall exactly how that came about, but I know they gave me two or three different choices of bars that I could go to. Gosh, that was ’83. Belmonte That would have narrowly ended the helplines if— Dodwell Yeah. (Laughs) That’s kind of when I got involved with the community. Belmonte Well, what were some of the other places that you met gay men and women after going to Seeker’s Choice? Dodwell The only places that I knew were bars, really. Zipper’s, I grew up in Zipper’s. Belmonte Tell me what Zipper’s was like for women. I’ve heard a lot of men talk about Zipper’s. Dodwell It was okay. I mean, there were several women there. They did have a few drag king shows there. It was kind of far and few between, but it did happen. There were so many young people and so many underage people there, but 5 �for women, there was like a—if I remember right, it was an area that was— you’d walk into the bar, you’d go up these steps and to the left; it was like almost all women. Anywhere else in the bar they were just scattered here and there; they weren’t grouped in certain areas, but one area I always knew that they were. Belmonte Where else besides Zipper’s? Dodwell TNT’s. Belmonte Do you remember what TNT’s was like at the time? Dodwell I think it was a little rougher than—well, of course—than it is now. Belmonte It’s straight now. Dodwell I know. I think they’re trying to keep it gay, but it’s not happening. Oh, Tracy’s. Yes, I went to Tracy’s too. I don’t remember where that one was— off of Utica. I didn’t go to Tracy’s very often. Have you ever been to Tracy’s? Belmonte This is the first time I’m hearing about Tracy’s. Tracy’s and Seeker’s Choice. Dodwell Tracy’s was a nicer bar—well, much nicer than Seeker’s Choice, I think it was. Belmonte You said Seeker’s Choice was off Admiral. Dodwell Yes. Went there, not a whole lot, but went there now and then. Then I started going to Zipper’s a lot, went to Zipper’s all the time whenever it was in its glory. Belmonte Over at 31st and Yale. Dodwell Yes. Oh yeah. I remember all the car bashings and the people that would be standing outside when the bar would close, and they would have baseball bats in their hands and, you know. Belmonte Tell me more about that. I’ve heard that policemen would take down names of license plates, but I hadn’t heard what you’re enumerating here. Dodwell Yeah, because there’s a lot of apartments that are around there, and there’s probably four or five different apartments. If you would leave the bar— mostly for the guys, you know, they would leave. They would just stand there; it was like an intimidation thing. Either they had already bashed their 6 �car, or they were just wanted to stand there just to make sure that they were afraid, I guess. It was frightening. They would yell at you from the balconies and tell you—call you names and things like that. There, for a while, Zipper’s started losing some business because people were afraid to go. Belmonte Do you recall any instances where people and not just property were harmed? Dodwell I know that there were some fist fights and things like this, like some of the queens would come out and be drunk, and they would say something, and they would just start just fist fighting. That’s the only thing I saw myself. I know the police were called a lot. Of course, police came inside the bar all the time. They would just look at you, and they would harass you, they’d ask for your license. It was a really big deal. They did harass a lot. Belmonte Now, in your circle of friends, what did you and your lesbian and gay friends do outside of bars? Dodwell Went to each other’s houses, had parties. We didn’t really do a whole lot as, actually, as a group. We’d go out to eat sometimes, and sometimes we’d go to a movie or something, but no real planned activities. Of course, I was young. My gosh, I was a baby, so it was party all the time. That’s all I wanted to do. Belmonte You made a comparison of Tracy’s and Seeker’s Choice and said that Tracy’s was nicer. Tell me more about this bar—this is the first time I’ve heard about Tracy’s. Dodwell The clientele I think was a little nicer as far as—it wasn’t as rough of a crowd; at least I don’t think it was. Belmonte Mainly women? Dodwell Yes. Well, actually, there were half and half at Tracy’s. At Seeker’s Choice, it was a lot of women. A lot of—well, I remember older women without teeth, but (Laughter) I don’t know if that’s something to write about. (Laughter) Belmonte Oh yeah. Terry They had split clientele. [Inaudible] Older women, it’s like there’s this real age gap. [Inaudible] Belmonte It’s my impression, and you can correct me if you think this is wrong, that a pretty hardcore butch femme culture in the bars in Tulsa persisted pretty long past when it did in other places. In many cities, Buffalo, New York, for 7 �instance, this began to disappear by the late ’60s. It sounds to me like that culture was still in place in Tulsa pretty late into the ’80s. Dodwell Definitely. I know some people who are still stuck in that, so it’s— Oklahoma is really backwards with that. They’re catching up to the things in different cities with things like that. Belmonte Did you witness a lot of violence in these bars? Fights? Dodwell A few, yeah. A lot of jealous butch girlfriends, that somebody would look at their girl, and they’d go after them and try to be the man of the house and do whatever they needed to do to take care of that. I saw a few fights, mostly alcohol-induced. Belmonte How did this physically manifest itself? Were there very rigid codes of what you would wear or not wear or how you would act, or was it more of a kind of attitude sort of thing? Dodwell Yes, there was. I was told when I was first starting to go out—it jarred my memory; this is great—that if you had any amount of sized breasts, you know, like mine, if you had them, you were not a lesbian. (Laughs) I was told that many times. Belmonte By whom? Dodwell By butch women, the older butch women, mostly, saying that’s just not right. “You just can’t just have big boobs and be okay and be with us. You’re not one of us.” I’ve heard that many times. Things like if—I remember I used to have this smock thing or whatever, and it had some pink in it. I don’t classify myself as butch or femme; I can do either one, and I’ve always been like that. That was not—that was an issue with some people. “Pick one, what are you going to be? Butch or femme?” I can’t be butch because I have boobs. Okay, maybe I can be femme, but I have to wear a dress, and I don’t like dresses. I would wear this smock thing, and they would tell me that if you’re trying to be butch, it’s not going to work because you have a pink flower on this. It’s not going to work. Belmonte How did you find a middle ground here? It must have been personally quite challenging, really not feeling like you fit into either category here. Dodwell I always thought labels were silly and stupid, so I don’t know. I’ve always just been myself and said, “Okay, this is what you get, and if you don’t like it, then you can go away.” A lot of people went away, especially back then. If you didn’t do a lot of partying and a lot of drugs, and if you didn’t fit into this particular group of gay culture, or if you weren’t the butch or the femme, where did you go? A lot of times I didn’t go. I also went to Crash 8 �Landing, which I loved Crash Landing. It was on 5th and Lewis, and it had a real airplane inside. Belmonte It’s amazing you guys didn’t meet each other sooner. (Laughter) Terry We have friends in all of the same circles, and we knew a lot of the same people, which is really ironic that we had never met. Belmonte Small world. Dodwell The Crash Landing was a combination bar. Have you heard of that one? Belmonte No. Dodwell Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, they had every—I don’t know if it was every month or every other week, but it was like a women’s dance they would have. The person you get lots of history from for that, all the bar stuff, is Ms. Carol Brown. I think maybe Renee, hopefully you know Renee. She would be a wealth of information for you. Belmonte Great. At the end of the taping, I would love it if you guys give me some names of people you think might be potential interviewees. That would be great. Dodwell You got it. Crash Landing did have a lot of—it was a neat bar; it was a really big place. It was high energy dance stuff, whatever it was back then. Terry It was three stories. Belmonte Quite substantial. Dodwell Isn’t it a church now? I know they tore it down, maybe it was a parking lot of a church. Terry There was a bar on every level, and it was just a really cool place. They had the most irritating final song I have heard in my whole life. Do you remember it? It can get people out of the bars. They put [inaudible] constantly. It said, “Bye bye, see you later. Bye bye, see you later. Bye bye, see later.” It would drive you out of the bar. Belmonte I suppose that was its intent. (Laughter) Terry Yeah, probably. Belmonte Was Crash Landing a mixed bar too? 9 �Dodwell I think so. Yeah, mostly. Except when they had the women’s dances. Belmonte What were these women’s dances like? Dodwell Popular. Belmonte Can you estimate how many people would go? Dodwell I don’t know. I would say fifty maybe. It was a lot for back then, and it was—there were just quite a few. Belmonte When would this have been? Dodwell This would have been ’82 to ’86, probably. Two, three year period there, but it was a very popular bar. Belmonte What were the atmosphere of these dances like? Dodwell Pretty—I think they were pretty light, and real fun. People didn’t seem like they had the barriers like a lot of people in our community have today. It’s like they were maybe more trusting, or maybe more accepting, or something like that that was—it was okay to go into this place by yourself, and people would talk to you, you know, things like that. Now it’s a little different. There’s— Belmonte A different spin on it. Now, in conjunction with this butch femme roles, do you recall that there were sexual expectations that went with that too? Like if you were butch, there were certain things that you did and didn’t do and vice versa? Dodwell I think so. Yeah. The butch was the more aggressor sexually, even romantically. The femme was more the little wifey kind of thing, just kind of went along with everything that the butch wanted to do. That’s what I saw. I don’t know if it’s the same now or not. Belmonte Let’s say you wanted to go on a nice date that wasn’t at a bar. Were there any restaurants or places in town that were known as gay-friendly? Dodwell Absolutely not, no. Just your own home. Belmonte In your circle of friends, let’s talk about some of their experiences you might remember. Do you remember—well, let’s start with your own family. When did you come out to your own family, and how did they respond? Dodwell My father died before I could come out, but my mother—I came out after I had my son to her, and I had my son at nineteen. I came out to her after that, 10 �and it was really difficult for her at first, especially. She was very angry. Then it got better. She hated my first girlfriend with a passion. She just started getting better with everything. She just started understanding a little more, and then my nephew came out to her. My nephew was a drag queen, and he was very flamboyant. I think he lives in Dallas now, but she would help him get ready for drag shows, and she started wanting to do things. If PFLAG [Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] would have been available or there back then, my mother would have been right in the trenches with that. I know she would have. She slowly learned that we’re people, too, and it’s okay that I love somebody of the same sex, but it’s not about sex. My mom would—even before my mother died at a nursing home, and we were talking to the whole staff about things, my mom would say, “If you have a problem with lesbians, you need to tell me now because my daughter is one.” She’d out me all the time, but I took her to see Boy George; I took her to see The Village People. She went to one gay pride picnic. I think—so she was okay with it later on. Belmonte Sounds like she was more than okay with it. Do you recall other parents being at that picnic or was she the only one? Dodwell She was pretty—I think she was pretty much the only one. That’s when it was at Mohawk Park. Oh my gosh, she just loved it. She used to love the gay boys, oh my gosh. She came a long way from when I first told her. She always was afraid for me being beat up and things like this; she didn’t want that to ever happen. The rest of my family—my brother, my oldest brother, doesn’t—he has an issue with gay people, mainly because of my nephew. My nephew is just, “I’m in your face. I’m gay. Deal with it.” He’d been out for years, and it just kind of turned him off, so I can’t really blame him for that, I guess. The rest of my siblings—they know that my sister has a problem with it kind of, so it’s—I don’t have anybody really with open arms in my family. Of course, on my dad’s side, they’re all from Arkansas, so I mean, they don’t even want to talk to me. You know, that’s their loss. Belmonte What about your son? Dodwell My son is okay with it now. Belmonte Well, I mean, you must have had to come out to him pretty early in his life, I would guess. Dodwell Yeah, I did. Actually, it was more like fourteen when we talked about it. He was okay with that, too. He just wants me to be—he said, “I just want you to be loved, and I want you to be cared for and not be hurt.” That’s kind of what he looks at. He doesn’t really talk about it a whole lot; he’s a very funny kid. He’ll—he used to—oh my gosh, he used to borrow my car or my ex’s car, and he’d get in it, and he’d come back, and all the stickers would 11 �be taken off of the car. (Laughter) He’s like, “I don’t want to ride in your car; people are going to think I’m gay.” (Laughs) It’s like, “Fine, then meet me there.” He’s twenty-one now, so he’s a grown man. He’s doing his thing. I recently went through a divorce, a break-up, and he dealt with that okay, and you know, he’s still working on that, but he’s just—I think he accepts me. He just wants to make sure I’m safe. I’m okay. I’m happy. Belmonte You mentioned that you work for Sears. How long have you been with Sears? Dodwell I have been with Sears since January. They have the GALS program there; it’s the Gays and Lesbians of Sears. They also have the domestic partnership benefits. They’ve got diversity days. [Inaudible] (Laughs) Belmonte She’s not in the frame here. You have to wonder who she is. Dodwell Yeah, we have diversity days, and that’s toward the end of this month, where I guess we come up with activities or things to celebrate [inaudible]. Belmonte Now, have you encountered discrimination on any of your other jobs? Have you ever encountered harassment yourself in coming out of a bar? Tell me about some of that. Dodwell Coming out of a bar, no, I haven’t really. I’ve just witnessed other people having problems. I did at Woodland Hills Mall one time, when—let’s see, it was probably ’84—when I was with this other girl that—we were walking in the mall, and all of the sudden, all of these kids from, I guess, Broken Arrow or Bixby High School, whatever, they followed us out and started shoving us around and everything, calling us, you know, “you dyke,” and “you this,” and “you that.” That’s about the only negative thing, really. I mean, I’ve had people scream at me and say things, but not real bad. Of course, it’s gotten a lot better over the years, but I can’t think of anything else other than what happened at Woodland Hills; that was kind of scary. Belmonte Let’s talk about your jobs. Dodwell My jobs. I worked at the Tulsa Police Department; that was a real fun thing. I was an animal control officer in a man’s world, so I had to prove myself. I got lots of comments about being gay. “Where’s the lesbian in the house?” There would be a lot of comments. Through the police department, you had no protection, not back then you didn’t. Maybe they do now, I don’t know. I kind of doubt it. There were just—mostly the comments, they would—there was one time in my mailbox, they had shoved a tie in there, a man’s tie, and boxers, and things like that. That’s when I first started working there. Belmonte When was that? 12 �Dodwell From—let’s see, I quit in ’89, so I worked there four or five years. It was during that time, ’83. That was probably the worst of it. A lot of times I would get harassed by my boss, actually, at a part-time job that I had at a supermarket. He found out that I was a lesbian, and he was just all for finding somebody else to help him out. “Come on, let’s go and have a big ole three-way party.” Oh my god, I hate that place. Oh, god. That was awful. No, no, no. I don’t [inaudible] you. Okay? It just doesn’t happen. Belmonte Being a lesbian is not a package deal, sorry. Dodwell No, it’s not. (Laughter) Belmonte In your circle of friends, I’ve been told, for instance, that there was a man in the community who was pretty well-known in the bars who was murdered in Mohawk Park, and the crime went unsolved. Do you recall hearing anything about that case or anything else along that nature? Dodwell I had heard about it, and I—but I don’t know any of the details. I just knew that it happened, but I really don’t know anything. Belmonte Tell me about what some of your gay male friends had to say about their lives in this period. Where, for instance, did they go if they were looking for a sexual encounter? What were some of the bars that were— Dodwell Tim’s Playroom was big. A lot of their experiences as far as—just in the general Tulsa area, I guess—violence, a lot of violence, what I’ve heard. A lot of loneliness because really the only place to go to meet other people were at the bars at the time. If you didn’t drink, or you didn’t like to go to the bars, then you were out of luck for the most part. I know that they went to Turkey Mountain quite a bit. I don’t know if they went back in the ’80s, but I can’t recall [inaudible]. That was just for just like sex, nothing more than that. There might have been a few little groups that popped up here and there. There was a men’s supper club that went on forever. Belmonte Do you remember any of the men who were a part of that group? Dodwell Dennis Neill, I believe, knew about it or was a part of it. Belmonte I’ll have to ask him about that. Dodwell Yeah, see if he knows something. Belmonte What about “the fruit loop” in downtown? Did they ever talk about that? 13 �Dodwell I’ve heard of the fruit loop. I don’t know that very well. I don’t know of that. That might have been maybe before my time. I don’t know. Belmonte It sounds like that went pretty far back. Dodwell Yeah, it did, but I have heard about it. Belmonte You mentioned the gay picnic. Did you go to any of the meetings of TOHR when it was first founded? Dodwell Oh yeah. Belmonte Tell me about what made you do that, and what those meetings were like, and whether you found that a positive experience? Dodwell Yeah, I started with TOHR, I want to say ’84, ’85. It was founded in ’83, right? Belmonte Right. Dodwell It was already going by then. Mostly men. I think my first meeting I ever went to—that’s when I first met Dennis Neill—was that I was the only woman there. For the most part, I felt accepted, but it was definitely lacking females. (Laughs) They just weren’t there. Either they didn’t know about it or what, or maybe they didn’t feel welcome. Belmonte Were they still meeting in the library at this point? Dodwell Yes. They were meeting at the library. I had talked to Dennis about, “Gosh, we can do this or do that,” or “Gosh, we…” He’s like, “Well, come on aboard!” so I started getting involved with that about a year later. Belmonte What were some of the things you did? Dodwell I was the helpline coordinator, and that’s when we moved and got the office space at 41st and Harvard. I did that for four years, three or four years. Belmonte Describe that experience. What were the calls like, what kind of training went into— Dodwell Oh my gosh, there was a lot of training that was involved. There was tons of volunteers. There were people knocking at the door to volunteer. Belmonte What types of professions were people in? 14 �Dodwell Doctors, lawyers, laymen, I mean, just anything. All kinds of people. We had chefs, and we had counselors; we had unemployed. We had lots of different walks of life, and that’s what’s needed for that kind of thing. We had people who had never done a helpline or anything like that, and so when they would come aboard, they would be terrified. What happens if they get a phone call and somebody is wanting to commit suicide or wanting to do this—and which we had those calls, and we had to talk people either out of it or try to get help to them as soon as possible. It was a lot of trading involved. The phones rang off the hook. It was constantly busy, especially in the evening because people in the community found out that we started having the helpline from eight to ten every night. Oh my gosh, it was just incredible. Belmonte What were some of the more memorable calls you had? Dodwell I had a phone call from a man—actually a straight man who felt that he was a woman. Back then, transgenderism was just not really talked about a whole lot; there was not a lot of education on it. We had books and brochures but not a whole lot of experience with it. He was—I was on the phone with this man for over an hour. He was—didn’t know where to go, how he was going to fit in, and trying to find the resources to help this person was almost impossible. The nearest resource I had was Dallas. While I had him on the phone, I start looking at different resources that we had from different states that surrounded us, and the nearest one I had was Dallas. I remember this guy because he called back, and about two weeks later, he called these other people and said he was better, and he felt much better about the situation, and he was happy and that he might be on the road to recovery for whatever reason. We’d get the calls that—you know, from the kids, they would—that’s normal. A lot of the volunteers would get upset over it. It’s like, they’re just curious. I mean, yeah, if they’re calling you and saying they’re going to kill you, yeah, that’s a different story, but they’re not. Belmonte They would call just to prank call. Dodwell Right. There was a woman who called when I was training somebody, and she was being—she was locked in her bedroom, and she was being beat by her lover. You could hear in the background the sounds of her being hit and the screaming. It was probably the most disturbing phone call that I had ever gotten. The poor guy, it was his first day that he had started working there, just trying to calm her down, but it wasn’t going to make her situation any better unless she was going to get out of there. I was able to get her to get to the phone and pick up the—she threw it on the bed, I guess, and she got the phone, and I got her address. I was able to call the police. That’s probably the worst. There were a whole lot more needy calls if you want to say it because back then is when AIDS was really coming out, and really, people 15 �were being, “What’s this gay disease?” It was a really big deal. Had a lot of phone calls about health issues, and it’s really hard. They’d have to call the Center for Disease Control for the most part because we didn’t have all of that information that they needed. Everybody knew that it was a gay disease, so we also dealt with that, all the different HIV and AIDS calls. Some of them were just—people were just bored, or they’re lonely. I know that there are still people out there like that who need a helpline, and I hope that we do it again. That was a very good experience for me. Belmonte We’re actually talking about reactivating it, trying to keep it going through the day, actually. Dodwell Good, it’s very much needed. Oh, god. Belmonte People call all the time, Dodwell Yes, they do. Belmonte Those pained coming out calls in particular. Dodwell Yeah, the coming out ones. Oh yeah. Oh gosh, yeah. Belmonte You’ve alluded several times to drug and alcohol use in the community. What are your impressions of the role that it’s played in gay life in Tulsa? Do you think the situation is similar now, or has it changed over time? Dodwell Well, even back then, I think the drug use—I don’t really think it was any different than in the straight community. We might have used a little more poppers, but I don’t think there was that much of a difference. As far as the role that it played, I know that, especially when HIV came up so strong and they finally realized what it was, there were so many people who continued to want to use drugs and knew that it could lower your immune system, or it could do some damage to your system for whatever reason. I think as far as—there’s a lot of people in the straight community who think that we’re all about drugs and sex, and maybe they need to look in their own backyard. Belmonte Right. Let’s backtrack a little bit and talk about your nephew. It sounds like he was quite flamboyant. It sounds like you might have had some familiarity with the drag community in Tulsa, which is not something I’ve heard much about. Dodwell Really? Belmonte Could you tell me—well, I have some interviews scheduled, people that are definitely going to fill that gap, but it sounds like you have been seeing drag 16 �shows and knowing the people that perform drag for quite a long time. Care to elaborate on that? Dodwell Sure. I came out during the times when Trudy Tyler used to be real big, real big. Patty and Tuna Melt were real big. Have you heard of them? And Miko, yes. Miko. Belmonte Nico with an N? Dodwell With an M. Belmonte Miko. Okay. Dodwell Yeah, I’m real close to the drag community even today. I think they’re an important part of our community. Sure, they’re dramatic; they’re supposed to be. (Laughs) Early on, the drag community was very small. Now it’s very big in Tulsa. It’s even bigger in different states, but it’s much bigger now than I ever imagined it to be. I just think that they played a really important part in our community and the way that—I don’t know if the mainstream society will ever see them as being okay, but that’s their problem. Belmonte Tell me some about what you think that role is and has been historically? When was the first time you went to a drag club? Dodwell Oh gosh, it was Zipper’s, and it was the early ’80s, ’83 or ’84, something like that. I just fell in love with them. I just did, and I don’t know why. (Laughs) I still don’t know why. (Laughs) I thought they had attitude, and most of them had talent; most of them did. As far as their role in historic— maybe just from their sheer talent and guts and strength, they’re very strong, strong people. Maybe when they just have a wig on, but at least they’re strong then. Maybe if they take the wig off, it’s not so much, but at least they get the point across. I’ve been to drag queen car washes that used to be on Peoria quite a bit, and they would be in full drag in the heat. Can you imagine? Heat and heels: no, no, no. (Laughs) They donated all their money to whatever, and most of the time, most of the drag shows—unless it’s a competition or a pageant or something—they donate their money to causes in the community. They pick certain ones to do that with. There’s always some kind of a drag queen war going on in between each other, but they all do the same thing. Belmonte What were some of the other bars that became known for drag? Dodwell There was Zipper’s, and Tracy’s was a big drag bar, definitely. For a short time, and I don’t know why, but TNT’s was a drag bar. It wasn’t all men, but it was kind of a combination of drag queen and king. They did it for a while, and then of course, there are plenty more now. I know that there’s 17 �another one that was really big into drag, but I can’t remember. Of course, The Jewel Box, (Laughs) yes, with their shag carpet, and The Bamboo. That’s it. There may be more, but those are the ones that I remember the most that people knew that they could call and say, “When are you having your next drag show?” and all of that. Belmonte When was the first time you remember hearing about AIDS in Tulsa? Dodwell While I was working on the helpline. I was on the board, and we got something. Doug Hartson was president at the time, and we got something from the newspaper or somewhere, but we had an emergency board meeting about it. They were talking about this gay disease, and we need to—and also from Nancy McDonald because she was working on something up there too. Just kind of a combination of a couple people. Belmonte How did the community mobilize in response to AIDS? Did it mobilize? Dodwell Well, I think the leaders of the community did, and the health department, of course. Once the news media got a hold of it, that’s all we needed. It was just “Get away from gay people,” “Oh, he’s gay. Yeah, he’s got AIDS. I’m sure.” We had the stigma just probably like every other community did. Ours might have lasted a little longer; there are people still very uneducated over that. Belmonte Did you ever go to follies review or any of the—what were some of the fundraisers along those lines that you recall that helped raise money for AIDS? Dodwell Went to a lot of drag shows. They did that. I went to the follies, and I went to two or three of them at least, maybe more, that the money that was raised went to some sort of research, or through Tulsa Cares, or something like the HIV helping agencies and things like that. Mostly the bars, the bars really kicked in on a lot of things. “We’ll have these shows, no problem. We’ll lower the drink prices so people will come in, and do this.” I think as a community as a whole, I know everybody was terrified. I know they were. They didn’t know what to do, and so they were doing everything they could to maybe make it better. If the money helped, then great. Belmonte Were any of your personal acquaintances or friends victims of the disease? Dodwell Oh yeah. I’ve been to more funerals than I’d prefer to be. My very first friend who died from AIDS is Eric Guinness, and he was a very good friend of mine. When his partner—when he was dying, and his partner took him to the hospital, it was the St. Francis’ in Broken Arrow, took him over there. He was throwing up blood, and he was just really bad. They would not touch 18 �him because they knew he had AIDS. They would not touch him. They told him he needed to go to the one in Tulsa, the hospital in Tulsa. Belmonte Do you recall what year that was? Dodwell That was ’89 or ’90. Belmonte Tell me if you can recall any other instances along those lines: people’s family reactions, people whose partners might have then had clashes with family. Do you recall any instances like that? Dodwell Are you talking about for AIDS? Belmonte For AIDS in particular, with hospital, medical authorities. Dodwell Medical authorities, oh yeah. It was a real big deal. Of course, it was full gown, and facial, and gloves, and everything for everybody that would enter the room, including the doctor and nurses. I was an HIV care coordinator for OSU, and this—just recently I guess. I’d go up to the hospital—even today, would go to the hospitals here, TRMC or any of these hospitals around. It’s awful, but especially like St. John’s and St. Francis, they just don’t know how to treat it; they don’t want to treat it. I don’t know why, whatever, maybe it’s a religious thing. I do know that TRMC is the most compassionate, from my experience, with people like that. As far as reactions, they just get treated differently. Whenever I was going before to my friends and seeing them in the hospital and to now, it’s getting a little better, maybe because education is better, I hope. Back then, even the doctors and the nurses were not as educated as what they should be. They would never think of kissing somebody on the lips who had AIDS. I mean, they just don’t understand what it’s about. Belmonte When did you become an HIV/AIDS educator? Dodwell Let’s see. When I went to work for OSU, that’s how I started— Belmonte OSU Medical School? Dodwell Yeah, off Southwest Boulevard. It was a grant-funded position, so it was a short-term thing. I started doing that four years ago, almost four years ago. I worked there two and a half, three years, two and a half years, I guess. I did testing, HIV testing and counseling. Did the statistics and everything as far as the patients that were coming in. I learned, and I saw a lot. A lot of times they’ll come in to be tested, and they’re straight. It’s like, “I can’t have AIDS because I’m not a homosexual,” so I have to educate them and talk to them, and it takes forever. It was important to me that if they did, if they were positive, they needed to be educated just for the safety of their own 19 �self. I saw a lot in the community. Some people who get AIDS, they have a whole different look at life after they get over all the pissed off stage and everything else, and they kind of get down to it. It’s like, “Okay. Well, let’s see. I’ve got this much to live or not to live or whatever. I’m going to make a difference.” Hopefully they continue to do that, and most of them did. Belmonte Have you had much experience with members of the black gay and lesbian community in Tulsa? Dodwell Very little. Very little. Belmonte Do you have any theories why there may be such a—it’s a tremendous gap in this community along this line. Do you have any impressions as to why that might be? Dodwell Do you really want to know? Belmonte Yeah. Dodwell The ones that I do know—the ones that I’ve met and talked to, I’ve asked them—especially when I was on the board, I would say, “Why are you coming to be on the board? Have you volunteered? Bring some of your friends. We have a resource here, and this is really good.” It was like, “I don’t have enough money for them.” That’s been the rumor for years. What do you do? I say, “No, no, you have this talent. You have this, and you have this. You can do it,” but it’s going to take more than just one or two people to go out and say, “Come on in. Come in and talk to us. Join us here.” Other than being a cultural difference, I don’t know what else it would be. Belmonte Do you think that class gap that you’re alluding to affects a lot of white members of the gay and lesbian community? Dodwell You bet it does. Belmonte Tell me more about that because this is not the first time I’m hearing this charge made at TOHR. (Laughter) Dodwell I have no real issues with TOHR. I believe in it. I want to continue to believe in it. There are a lot of people who are believing right now that it’s an elitist society. As far as—you have to be somebody to be a part of it. I’ve been a part of TOHR since the ’80s. Belmonte For twenty years. Dodwell Yeah. I don’t think I have much of a balance on my checkbook. You know, I don’t have that much money, but I believe in the community, and I believe 20 �in the people in the community. But from what I have heard—I get a lot of emails from people just telling me things that they’ve experienced like, “I went into TOHR. I went into the office, and they looked at me like I was just this bum, and I wasn’t going to be accepted, and I didn’t feel right. They’re all walking around with suits and briefcases.” Anyway, they would say this, and I’d write back and just like, “Give them another chance and go back up there. Try to see what you can do.” There are a lot of people right now—I cannot believe I’m telling you this—but there are just a lot of people that have lost any kind of hope for TOHR. You know that. Belmonte I do know that. As someone who’s on the board, it’s something I care about and hope to change. One of the reasons why I founded this project is I want everyone’s voices to be heard as part of this. Dodwell Right. It’s important to me that people understand that TOHR is what you make it, or the community is what you make it, period. I may not agree with everything that they do, but who does? That’s crazy. Everybody has their own agenda and whatever. I just—there’s a lot of people on the bandwagon right now that are just saying, “Oh, they did this, and they’re doing this. They’re doing that.” One thing that I have preached and preached, and you know, it’s [inaudible] thing. I’ve said, “Keep whining because that’s all you’re going to get is whine. That’s it. Do something about it. Get up off your butt and go down there and volunteer and do something about it. Stop your frickin’ whining.” I will continue to say that. If things work out—if a building is built, and these people still think this way, it doesn’t always— people don’t always come when you build the building. You have to get it going. It takes some time. Belmonte It sounds like you’ve done a lot of different things over the years for the community. You mentioned HIV and the hotline. What are some of the other things that you have done as a volunteer in the community? Dodwell I was on the board. I’ve been on the board twice. The first time was the helpline, and the second time I was the programming. Belmonte What year was this? Dodwell When I was on the board the first time, it was 1985 to ’89. Yes. Belmonte Do you remember who else was on the board with you at that time? Dodwell Penny Humphrey, Doug Hartson, Dwight Kealiher, Bonnie—and I can’t remember her last name. I think she was with Penny. Steve—I can’t remember his name. Anyway, most of the people—I’m sure people who know them will see this—McCurly, Steve McCurly. I think Cynthia Corberay, I think. 21 �Belmonte Cynthia what? Dodwell Corberay, I believe. Yeah. Belmonte Tell me what you felt—what was the board like in that first period? What was TOHR like? Dodwell The board was actually fun. There was a lot of energy, a lot of motivation to get people involved. There were some problems in the sidelines, just like any other board, but they were, for the most part, pretty positive. We had a lot of speakers at our meetings. We did our best to plan events and to increase membership and then members coming in to the center. We had a little—a small library, and I think we had a few videos people could check out, but not a lot. The main focus of the actual office was the helpline. It was a big deal. It was really kind of nice to be on the board and just to see—or to be a part of TOHR at that time. There were a lot of changes that were going on: some negative, some positive. Belmonte Give me some examples. Dodwell The negatives were changing with AIDS and having to make those precautions. Changes with—as far as positive—just more people being interested in what’s going on. We have more—we had garage sales and things to raise money for different events that were coming up. The follies were real big, and of course gay pride. The picnics were really big too. Belmonte Tell me about those. What was the first one of those that you went to? Dodwell I went to my first picnic—it was at Mohawk. Belmonte How did you guys get the word out in the community? Dodwell Through the bars, for the most part, and through—some through TOHR but mostly through the bars. Lots of signs. That was when the bars are the ones really who put it on. People from TOHR and other people came to it, but they would cook hot dogs, and they’d have hamburgers. It was just—they’d have their kids there and whatever. It would be a big, ole—well, by the end of the day, it was a drunk fest, but it was fun! (Laughter) Belmonte Do you remember how many people would go to those? Dodwell Hundreds. It was pretty big. Never really had any trouble at Mohawk Park that I know of. Went there a couple of summers a couple of times, two that I know of, maybe three. Then it was moved to another park on the west side 22 �of Tulsa, and we were there for a couple of years. I think from there it went to Veteran’s Park. Belmonte Do you—you remember ever going to the Black and White parties? Dodwell Oh yeah. Belmonte Tell me what those were like. Dodwell Well, the first Black and White I went to, The Village People were there to perform. That’s when I took my mother. That was a lot of fun. People were in there—I mean, it was packed. It was at the fairgrounds; it was packed. It was every combination of black and white you can imagine was there. Some people were in tuxes, some people had limos they’d come in, and they would—of course that’s when I think the bar—it was an open bar, you didn’t have to pay or something. I can’t remember, but it was a real big deal because they had to limit your drinks. The music was great, and it was just—it was a huge success. I went to three of them. I do remember, however, whenever the Black and White used to be by invitation only, and if you didn’t know somebody who was going or who was a part of it, then you couldn’t get in. I remember that. I was so mad because I thought, “Why?” Belmonte It changed from an invitation-only event to one that was publicized, and you could just pay at the door? Is that what you’re telling me? Dodwell Yeah, several years later. There, for a while it was like, “You got Black and White too? How did you do that? Who do you know?” It was a big deal. Belmonte Did you go to any of the Harwelden? Dodwell No, I did not. No. Belmonte Which remains invitation-only. Okay. Dodwell Yeah. Belmonte You were on the TOHR board. What made you get off the board the first time? Dodwell I think I had some personal issues with my family that I had to pay attention to that I wasn’t able to do it. I was still involved; I just stepped down from the—well, from the helpline the first time. The second time that I was on the board, I was helping take care of an elderly family member, my ex’s. Belmonte What year was this? 23 �Dodwell This was just a little over two years ago. I wasn’t going to have time. Well, they were also phasing out the programming, and so basically I wasn’t going to be on the board anymore. I thought, “This is probably a good time for me to step down.” Belmonte What was the rationale behind that? Dodwell Let’s see. Belmonte I know some of this might be sensitive in terms of personalities. Dodwell No, that’s okay! People are people. They’ve got to do what they’ve got to do. We had a training with the board. It was downtown, and it was a whole day training. At that training, they decided to go ahead and eliminate the programming of TOHR. I thought, “Okay, where does this leave me?” They wanted to do it until either they got a building or until they got things a little more straightened out with legalities. We had issues—we had so many programs that we wanted to work. We had one for the elderly where we could go and check on our lesbian and gay elderly people and make sure they were okay, run to the store if we needed to or whatever, and we had volunteers to do that. Issues came up with—“What if they didn’t have insurance on their car? Is it going to come back to TOHR because they’re volunteering in TOHR?” It was just—it just kept building and building and building, and it got to the point where it was like, “Okay, wait. We need to stop. We can’t have these programs anymore.” We had the Rainbow Families, which was huge, and they met at the center, and then they met in other different places. There were some people who were uncomfortable with children being in the center. Mainly—there were some of the transgendered people who were a little concerned because they didn’t want to confuse them, because a lot of times they would be dressing in one room, and they didn’t want the kids to run into the room and things like that. It was just—it was kind of a legal thing. They wanted to have everything written and drawn up, and they wanted to have enough volunteers to run those programs. We didn’t at the time. People were dropping out of TOHR just right and left because of whatever they disagreed with or whatever. Belmonte What were some of those reasons? Do you recall? Dodwell Most of the reasons were—they felt like—they would volunteer information; they would say, “Okay, I have an idea. Why don’t we do this or this or this?” and then someone on the board or whatever would just say, “Well, that’s a stupid idea.” Or, they would make time to come to our board meeting, which usually was like five hours long. 24 �Belmonte Still is. (Laughs) Dodwell They would make time to go, and they would sit there during the whole meeting. It’s like “No, we need to get them out of here and listen to what they have to say.” When they would listen to what they had to say, nobody else would respond to it. They would say, “Well, okay. We’ll look at it.” They would leave the room, and as soon as they would, they would just turn the paper over and go, “Okay, next.” They wouldn’t about it. They wouldn’t even think about an idea or a problem or something like that. There were a lot of emotions involved whenever I was involved the last time I was on the board. As far as changes and people getting hurt or feeling like they weren’t being listened to or that “Oh, it’s just like it was before. You’ve got to have a lot of money. You’ve got to be a man before you’re in TOHR.” I don’t believe that myself, really, but you know… Belmonte This was in the—this period you’re talking about now, be more chronologically specific. Dodwell Chronologically specific. About three years ago. Belmonte Was this when Carrie and Greg were the president—who was president during this period? Dodwell Brent. Belmonte Brent. Okay. Dodwell Yes, Brent was, and Carrie was President Emeritus. There were issues even there. Greg was still on the board, too. Belmonte Right. They were—this was when Dee was president very briefly, and Brent came up. Dodwell Yes, I was on the board then, too. Belmonte I’m sure there was some fallout in the wake of that. Dodwell Yeah, there was. I will say something, though. I will say that I don’t know what Dee did. I don’t know what she did, but it was—considering the time I have known about TOHR and the things that TOHR has done, she is the only person who has every brought that many people into the center, in my opinion, in history of TOHR. I don’t know how she did it. I know she probably did some things, and maybe she shouldn’t have, but she brought the community together more than I have seen anybody else. I don’t even—I don’t know Dee all that well, but I just know that I wish we could do that again because we were having people—we had waiting lists for people to 25 �get a space at the center. There were that many people there. It was just incredible. You’d go into the center, and you’d have to go down the hall and squeeze through people and stuff; they’re everywhere. I just wanted to say that. Belmonte That’s good to know. Bought all of her volunteer mobilization policies. (Laughter) Dodwell No kidding. Belmonte That’s one thing that’s very interesting about being a historian: there are many sides of the same event. I’m sure that Dee’s take on this would differ from others. Dodwell It might even differ from mine. (Laughs) Belmonte Right. Were you involved on the board when they started having the gay pride march? Dodwell You mean the… Belmonte The actual march that precedes the festival. Dodwell Yeah. Well, was I? No, I wasn’t on the board when they first did it. No, I was not. Belmonte Okay. We talked about the origins of that some. Oh! Let’s talk about your alter ego, Dyke Divine! How could we not talk about that? How long have you done this? Did you do it before email? Tell me some about the history of Dyke Divine. How could I forget that? Oh my goodness. Dodwell (Laughs) I’ve been doing the Dyke Divine thing for a little over six years, roughly. How it started was my mother got really sick, and I needed an outlet over something. I was depressed, and upset, and I didn’t really know what to do, and so I started to write. There was a guy named David Jennings, a real asshole—oh, sorry. Anyway. Belmonte That’s okay. (Laughter) There’s profanity on it elsewhere. Dodwell Okay. He did something called GayTulsa.org. I was starting to read his stuff, and it was like, oh my gosh, he was horrible. He was cutting down the bars and all this. I thought he was very funny, but some of the stuff was like, “Man, that’s going to get you killed!” Well, I started writing to him, and as I did that, he said, “If you’ve got something to say, why don’t you write for me?” “Okay then.” I just started doing that, and I started just being myself and writing about things and people. Sometimes I did bar reviews, and 26 �usually that got me death threats. I started with the community and talking about those kind of things. Belmonte Do you have hard copies of a lot of these things? Dodwell You bet I do. Belmonte Would you be willing to donate copies of them to the project? Dodwell Sure, you bet. Belmonte Great. We’ll talk about that in the future. Dodwell I just started to get emails. I mean, I would open my email, and I’d have thirty, forty a day. It was like, oh my gosh, it’s like, “When are you going to write again? When are you going to write again?” He’d post all of my articles and things, and I’d try to write every other day. Then people started writing, just like, “You know, you really helped. You helped me.” It’s like, “I can’t get enough of you.” Belmonte What type of things would you write about? Dodwell Sometimes I would write about breakups. I went through a really—well, it should have been a better breakup than what it was. Belmonte Isn’t that always the case, though? Dodwell Everybody tried to help. I wrote this really, really, really, really bad article about people minding their own frickin’ business. It was a hit, (Laughs) and I just—I didn’t stop. I think part of it, I was angry about my mom. I didn’t want her to be sick, but it was a real good release for me. I never mentioned anybody’s names, and most of the time—most of my articles have a lot to do with something I’ve either experienced personally, or I know personally somebody else who has done it, but I don’t use other people’s names. Sometimes it’s like, give me a break. It’s like the whining thing. I wrote about that. It’s like, you know, just shit or get off the pot. Come on. I don’t believe that people—maybe I say things—and I’ve heard this from a lot of people, but I say things that most people don’t, or never would want to say to anybody else in their life, because I try to tell people how it is. I try to do it. I love to write. Then I figured out that I had something to say to the community, and they were listening. Oh my god, they were listening to me. (Laughs) Belmonte Thirty, forty emails a day, boy, that’s a lot of time to invest in— 27 �Dodwell Yeah, and it got more. I got a whole lot more. Then I finally got my own domain, and I have my own site now in which I do all my own stuff. Oh man. Belmonte Did you teach yourself how to do all of the web design and everything? Dodwell Yeah. Belmonte You started building this rather amazing email database. How many people do you think are in that list now? Dodwell I have 2,800 people on my list. Belmonte That’s impressive. Dodwell (Laughs) It’s a lot. Yeah, it’s about 2,800. Belmonte Mostly women? Dodwell Combination. A lot of straight people and just people who have said, “Put me on the email list. I want that.” Belmonte What do you do? You do a weekly newsletter, postings, what do you use this list for mainly? Dodwell To give information out about things that are going on in the community. I don’t use it for things—that other email that was going around. I might send that to one or two people but not the community. It’s usually community events. I don’t know, just—I believe that these—I don’t know. I kept telling my ex, I said, “How in the world are they—it’s like they’re not working or sleeping or something. It’s like they’ve emailed me two, three times a day.” I didn’t know what to do with all that. Boy, let me tell you: it gets your head really big. I had to really watch it. (Laughs) Belmonte That’s clearly serving a need. Dodwell Yeah, I’m glad I am. It makes me feel good, makes me feel really good. Terry You’ve got a big gay pride parade, and she wore a t-shirt, and on the back it said “Dyke Divine.” People would walk up and go, “Oh man, I love your website!” Belmonte That’s great. In some ways, it strikes me as you’ve just taken the helpline work you did digital. 28 �Dodwell Yes. Then I’ll get an email that will say “searching for help.” I’m like, “Oh god, here we go.” It’s like, “Okay.” Sometimes it’s something real basic, and sometimes it’s, “I need to get out of this abusive situation,” or “I just left my husband. I know I’m a lesbian, but he’s going to kill me.” There’s just—I can’t stop it because now people depend on it. It took me a while to figure that out. I was just like, “Oh, they don’t pay attention.” The very first—two prides ago, maybe three, I was DJ’ing at the picnic. It was when, right in the middle of the ole Dyke Divine thing going, and girls would come up and they’d always be like, “Where’s Dyke Divine?” They would come up to the picnic thing; they’d come up to my little booth, and they’d go, “Can you sign my shirt?” (Laughs) “Sure,” and I’d dot my I’s. (Laughter) It’s been a lot of fun. It really has. I’m glad it’s helped some people. Belmonte That’s great. I think I have covered a lot of ground with you here, and I certainly appreciate your time, both of your time. Unless you have anything you’d like to add … Dodwell I do have one thing I’d like to add. I want to tell you a small story about—it was Christmastime, and we did what’s called a fairy tree at the center. It was for people who had some kids or knew people who had kids that might need some help at Christmas. The whole community would get together, and they would buy gifts. They would bring them to the—instead of an angel tree, we called it a fairy tree. Anyway, we were there one night, and a whole bunch of us were there, and there was a guy that came in. He looked like just this big, ole, burly—this bald-headed boy; he was just tough-looking. He said, “Is this TOHR?” and I said “Yes it is.” He said, “I’ve got some toys for you. You may want to come out and get them.” I thought, “I don’t even know this guy. Okay.” I went out, and he did. His whole back end of his truck was full of toys. We were on our way out there, and he said, “I can’t use them anymore,” and he would bring the toys. He starts bringing them in and all this. On the last load, he’s bringing them in; he starts to cry. He said, “You want to know why I’m doing this?” I said, “Okay.” He said, “I just came from”—he had just came from his parents’ house, and I guess his—not his parents, his oldest daughter’s house. His oldest daughter would not let him give all these gifts. He had four grandchildren he had never met. She would not let him see them, or give them gifts, or even leave the gifts for them because he was gay. He was in tears. This big man put the sack down, and he just grabbed me and just was crying. He said, “I don’t know what I would have done if you all would not have been open.” That is why we need [inaudible], and that was why we need [inaudible]. Belmonte That’s a pretty poignant way to end this, and I appreciate your time. This concludes this interview. 29 �------- End of interview ------- 30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Anna Dodwell Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 1, 2004 Subject The topic of the resource Anna Dodwell Oral History Project Interview from August 1, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on August 1, 2004. Anna was born on September 7th, 1963, in Tulsa. She attended public schools in Tulsa. Around 1983, she became aware of Oklahomans for Human Rights, Tulsa Chapter, [predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality] through her contact with its Helpline. She recalls the bar life around this time and other aspects of the Tulsa LGBTQ+ community. She became an active volunteer with OHR and then its successor organization Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, serving on the board and active participant with the Helpline. Through Oklahoma State University, she became a HIV/AIDS educator. She wrote the highly popular “Dyke Divine.” She discusses the various challenges facing the organization and the “class” divide within the community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anna Dodwell, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV education Anna Dodwell bar life Dyke Divine helpline HIV HIV Education HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OHR OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU TOHR TOHR helpline transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/ae720f37b67fe1d07b1a660ec30be6c3.jpg 3d36c73df7f5d443c35811d1ab4c536c https://history.okeq.org/files/original/816576851a461a49caeb713b19240694.mp4 3a2fb94204d5fad94d23da9b807c8740 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/7205a5a0a661f11e09d82362ce52eadc.pdf e21c9690e1e258a36a967b7f66c78441 PDF Text Text Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview (Vintage Series) with Charles Faudree Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: December 4, 2012 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio AI, January 26, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 1 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM About Charles Faudree Editor’s Note: Charles Faudree passed away on November 27, 2013. His obituary and an article from the Tulsa World are at the end of this interview. Keywords LGBTQ, Oklahoma, Charles Faudre, coming out, spirituality, AIDS crisis, community support, acceptance, recovery, resilience Summary In this conversation, Toby Jenkins interviews Charles Faudree, a renowned interior designer and a significant figure in the LGBTQ+ community in Oklahoma. Charles shares his journey from growing up in Muskogee to becoming a successful designer in Tulsa, discussing the challenges he faced while coming out, the impact of the AIDS crisis, and his commitment to community support and fundraising. He reflects on his spiritual journey, the importance of acceptance, and the changes he has witnessed in society regarding LGBTQ+ rights. Charles emphasizes the need for love and understanding, especially for young LGBTQ+ individuals navigating their identities. Takeaways    Charles Faudre's journey reflects the evolution of LGBTQ+ acceptance in Oklahoma. The importance of community support during the AIDS crisis was paramount. Spirituality played a crucial role in Charles's acceptance of himself. https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 2 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75        1/26/26, 11:52 AM Fundraising initiatives can significantly impact community health resources. Charles's story highlights the importance of love and acceptance from family. Recovery from addiction allowed Charles to embrace his true self. The role of St. Jerome's Church was pivotal in Charles's spiritual journey. Charles believes that LGBTQ+ individuals should give their parents time to accept them. The current state of LGBTQ+ rights in Tulsa is a mixed experience. Charles's resilience in the face of health challenges inspires hope. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Charles Faudre and His Impact 01:38 Charles's Early Life and Coming Out Journey 08:22 The Role of Spirituality in Acceptance 14:51 Fundraising for AIDS Awareness and Community Support 22:53 Reflections on Progress and Current Challenges 30:45 Advice for Young LGBTQ+ Individuals and Conclusion Charles Faudree Oral History Interview 12-4-2012 Toby Jenkins: I'm Toby Jenkins, Executive Director of Oklahomans for Equality, and we want to welcome you to the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in downtown Tulsa for Vintage Tulsa, our way of capturing the stories of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Oklahomans and hearing what they have to say about the marvelous history of our state and how their lives interweaved with that story. Today I am so honored to have a man who I've admired for many years. He was instrumental in helping me to walk and talk and act like a regular lady when I came out. He was among the wonderful folks at St. Jerome's Church that mentored me. And Charles Faudree, as many of you know, is a world-renowned interior designer, but he's also from Oklahoma, and he is significant to the work of Oklahomans for Equality because he was one of the individuals that was connected to the early days of our founding. And also the Equality Center, one of the favorite rooms that folks love to see at the end of a tour when they've toured the Equality Center. We start out in the Cisar Holt Lobby, and we finish in the Charles Faudree boardroom. And I always finish the tour by saying, this is what gays can do with your basement. And folks, Charles Faudree is responsible. Give Charles a warm welcome for being here today, and we're going to get into it. https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 3 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM Charles Faudree: Excuse me. I'm glad to be here, I'm glad to be anywhere these days. The key word seems to be vintage, and I certainly fall under that. I was born a long, long time ago. I've always been an Okie. I was born almost 75 years ago. I grew up in Muskogee, so not only am I an Okie from Muskogee, but I grew up in a family with a mother and father that was never anything but loving. I look back on my life, and I think they sacrificed for me to go to parochial school. I went to the nuns for eight years. I loved the nuns, and I learned to love God there. Then I went to a boys' prep school, military boarding school. Toby Jenkins: And where was that, Charles? Charles Faudree: That was in Muskogee as well. It closed my senior year, the health department closed it. The dorm was on the top floor. It was a fire trap. But that was really when I felt like I didn't belong. I can't even clap to rhythm, so let alone could I play football or do all those intramural sports that I had to do at that school. So I was no good at that, but anyway, I suffered and made it through. I didn't know any better. I knew my folks, that's what they wanted. They were staunch Catholics. So when I graduated, and I had parents that didn't drink. My father would drink a beer in the summer sometimes, and we had eggnog at Christmas. And Christmas Day, we had some cheap champagne. So I was never really in my house or our home. But my folks always said, if you want to drink, come and drink at home. So then I went off to college, and that's where I learned to drink and party and have a good time. Toby Jenkins: And where was that? Charles Faudree: That was in Tahlequah. I had enrolled at TU, had the entrance exams at already a dorm room, and my dorm roommate was going to be a Baptist minister. And I made the mistake of going to two revivals with he and his mother, and the father, that being the Catholic that he was, decided that I would not go to TU. So in the middle of August, I went to Northeastern with no one on the campus, a lot of Indians sitting in the town square. And at that moment, I hated my father. But, you know, God works in my life in strange ways and does for me what I can't do for myself because at Northeastern, I was a big duck in a little puddle and it worked best for me. Toby Jenkins: Now, were you involved in student government or music or art? Charles Faudree: No, my, well, yes and no, my degree was in art, but, you know, I made who's who in college and I was secretary of my fraternity and tri-sigma man and https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 4 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM made the deans on a roll. I did, you know, I was motivated to, and, you know, I always dated girls. I never had, I never was in love with a girl, but because I was a funny drunk or funny, you know, I always had a date for the sock hops or any function that I needed a date for. So, I always knew, was different in my life than most people, but I knew also that I was a Catholic and I knew how, and if I offend you and you're a Catholic, this is what it was for me. I don't judge anyone else and, you know, more power to you if it all works for you. But, I taught school actually for four years and then I opened a shop at 25. Toby Jenkins: Now, where did you teach school? Charles Faudree: I taught school, I went to the Art Institute first for one year and I taught school there, but I also, then I moved back to Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Where was the Art Institute, Charles Faudree: In Kansas City. In Kansas City. I taught school in Tulsa. I taught junior high art and I met a couple that, they were opening a shopping center in Oklahoma. It was the first shopping center this side of the Mississippi that was enclosed, so it was almost an attraction for Oklahoma and this person, the wife that I taught with, father said, I will back you in a shop if we can call it Faudree's and you will run it, I will be the silent partner and take care of the books. And here is where I met a lot of other people that were gay. There was a flower shop across from my shop, a home shop. Anyway, and once someone fell in my bed, I knew what was my problem all along. Toby Jenkins: So they just fell into your bed? Charles Faudree: They fell into my bed. Toby Jenkins: You make it sound like it was almost an accident. Charles Faudree: No, no, they well crawled or jumped or whatever. It was a great experience. Toby Jenkins: So what was the name of the shopping center? Charles Faudree: Todd, help me. Shepard Mall. Shepard Mall, Toby Jenkins: In Oklahoma City? Charles Faudree: Yes, it always looked like a factory, but when it opened, it had beautiful shops and it was an instant success and I had never worked harder. But I will tell you, coming out for me was a big thing. That's 50 years ago. The people today are https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 5 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM so lucky that this is a different world. 50 years ago, you almost went underground. And the fact that I was a Catholic, I thought I was losing my mind. I would have killed myself. Toby Jenkins: Except now, were you still observant? I mean, did you still attend mass? Charles Faudree: I still attended mass. I'd never missed mass, a Sunday in my life, in 25 years. I had no one to talk to. I had no equality center. I had no one to talk to. I thought I was losing my mind and I would have killed myself, except why expedite going to hell? So one day, one Sunday, I didn't go to church and lightning didn't strike. And so my story was my life with God, my life without God, and my life with God. Because I actually turned my face on God and thought, I'm all right. And I was motivated then to be more successful, try to be more successful than ever, to prove myself. Charles Faudree: I had a sister that understood and loved me as I love her. I love her more than life itself. And she understood, yet she was seven years younger, My father had died by (?). I had a mother that was understanding and said she loved me regardless. Toby Jenkins: What was that like when you had that conversation with her? Could she tell something was bothering you or? Charles Faudree: She said that it's so strange because two of her closest friends both had sons that were older than me that were gay and she said you know I don't understand it but I accept it and I love you unconditionally. My father had died when I was a sophomore in college. I look back on that and wonder what my father would have thought. My father would have probably had a different viewpoint. There was a little redneck in my father but it doesn't matter. It's only a curiosity but the big deal sort of became a little deal. I could tell you being gay is only a little section of my life today and I have never been turned away or felt minority. When I moved to Tulsa I was accepted by… Toby Jenkins: And what year was that Charles? Charles Faudree: That was almost 30 years ago I opened a shop in Utica Square and you know my clients are all sophisticated and bright enough to understand that gay people are the most creative and that they need us. So my life was good and my life has always been good but I have to say this at 50, at 50 I addressed my drinking. I had you know I never would pass out or black out. I'd only use the word slept or woke up. I slept in a lot of places. I woke up in a lot of places. I woke up in a lot of places. And you know drinking and dealing with myself… Well back up when I was 25 I started drinking because drinking made me be what I wanted to be as well as what I didn't want to be. https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 6 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM And I could pursue the gay life and not and you know I could even clap to rhythm. But at 50 with no God in my life I thought you know I have fallen asleep in parking lots and hedges and in places that I wouldn't didn't know how I got there or who I was with. So I had actually my last drink on a New Year's Eve with six gay friends. We went to Dallas for a New Year's Eve black tie at the French room at the Adolphus. And to make a long story short at the end of the night they carried me through the lobby. Passed out or asleep as I used to say. So I went to AA. And again God is doing for me what I can't do for myself. Only went to AA to think I'd get a grip on drinking.Drinking. But you know in AA is where I learned to love myself. Accept myself for exactly what I am. Know that the God that I thought was Catholic is not necessarily Catholic. But is within me and made me exactly like I am. So I can tell you it changed my life. And it also gave me the freedom to say that I was an alcoholic was a hard thing to say. I went to meetings three months before I could say it. I never would say to people that I was gay. But it gave me the freedom to say that I was gay and be proud of the fact that I was gay. Today, I wouldn't change anything about my life. But I can tell you, at 25, you think, why am I not what I thought was normal? Why did I not want to be married and have children? Today, you know, I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life. Today, or back at 50, after 3 years of being sober, I lost an ex-lover to AIDS. Toby Jenkins: And that was what year? Charles Faudree: Well, I was 50 and I'm 75. It was 25 years ago. Speaker 3: Okay. Charles Faudree: 25 years ago. Toby Jenkins: So it would have been right at the beginning of the plague. Charles Faudree: The beginning, and no one knew what it was. It was just a gay disease. But I lost a partner and I lost a dozen friends. And I thought, this is Tulsa. There was Tulsa Caresa and then we were opening the St. Joseph's Hospice. So I thought, I thought I would like to start a fundraiser and maybe do a house tour. Because the Philharmonic had had a house tour that was successful and dropped it. So I met with four women for lunch, my sister being one, Nancy Renburg, Lynn Robertson, like anyway, all women that I thought would be honest with me. And I said, I'd like to do a fundraiser for AIDS, because I didn't know if it would, might even jeopardize my, my job or my livelihood. Toby Jenkins: So prior to this time, Charles, uh, the only fundraising from what I've been told was within the gay community. Nobody had ever reached outside of the gay community to be able to articulate our needs as a community to the greater population. https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 7 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM Charles Faudree: That's right. And so I thought it's time to step out. And so I met those four women and said, I'm thinking about a house tour. What do you think? And all four ladies said, you have my house. Thus we started the Hope Candlelight tour. You know, that first year, Nancy Vaughn, all these people, these, uh, straight people helped. We, uh, we didn't know what we were doing. We put the wrong name on the wrong address. Uh, it, it was almost comical, but in spite of that, we made $40,000 the first year, the next year. ..Anyway, within three years, we made a million dollars for Tulsa Cares. We helped St. Joseph’s and Rain[Regional AIDS Interfaith Network], all three had a place on the rain Board. And we helped open St. Joseph’s Hospice., Toby Jenkins: Saturday was world AIDS day. This videotaping is taking place on December the 4th. Am I right? But on Saturday, we were at Circle Cinema with many of your good friends and Clark Weins was at Circle Cinema said he was on the firs RAIN team with you and Dennis Neill. Charles Faudree: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And, uh, so did you help starting teams? Charles Faudree: Uh, uh, Sutherland, what is her name? Mary Brotherton [Mary Cathrine Smotherman] was the founder and she had lost her son. And so they formed a board meeting and we would meet, uh, in Oklahoma City, uh, because that's where she was, uh, oh Lord, those trips to Oklahoma City. Uh, what is the lady minister? Toby Jenkins: Leslie Penrose. Charles Faudree: Leslie Penrose. I drove once with, and, uh, she and someone representing the Jewish, uh, belief wrote with me. They both stepped out of the car when they got home and said, we will never ride with you again. It was just fine with me. But one, one trip to the board meeting in February, I had a flat, flat, and I'm listening to a book on tape. This has nothing to do with what I'm supposed to be telling you. But anyway, I had a flat. So I called AAA and said, I have a flat. And they said, where are you? And I said, I don't know. I'm on the turnpike. And they said, well, where? And I said, I don't know. I'm listening to a book on tape. She said, well, we can't help you. I called a tough guy at my shop and said, what do I do? And he said, well, I can't come if I don't know where you are. Look at the manual. Well, the manual is written by a German. So it's very hard to read. I had not changed the flat since I was in high school where you jacked up a jack. Well, and it was freezing rain. I tried to flag people down. No one would help me. I had to go to the bathroom so bad. I took care of that in the ditch. But I got that manual out, and I put my head on the steering wheel and said, God, help me, help me. Somehow, one hour later, I had changed a flat. I was an hour late for the meeting, but I had a feeling of https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 8 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM accomplishment that you cannot believe. I was, of course, covered in grease, but anyway, it has nothing to do with that. But yes, RAIN was a wonderful organization at the time that it was needed. Toby Jenkins: And kind of explain for our viewers what RAIN was, because a lot of young folks watch these videos and they don't know about this period of our history. Charles Faudree: It was so terrible but so rewarding. We went to the home of people that were not hospitalized but still needed care. We did everything. We would grocery shop for them. We took them to the doctor's appointment. We changed the litter box. We did anything we needed to help them, give them their medication, change their clothing. It was something. My friend, Rob Carpenter, was on our care team [Rob was the client]. And my sister, who has always supported me in everything, she worked on RAIN only because of Rob. She decorated his wheelchair. He loved it. They called him Dolly Hollywood. She, with a connection in Hollywood that we had, had Liz Taylor sign a copy to Dolly Hollywood for him. And we were with him the night…He's the one that took me to my first AA meeting because he was in Illinois. But we were with him the night before and the morning that he died and were able to say how much we loved him. But what a grueling death some of these people went through. Toby Jenkins: And Rob's name is on the quilt here in the lobby as you came through. Charles Faudree: Yes, and we worked on it. We made that quilt. You know, it's a different time with AIDS patients now. You know, St. Joseph's is closed. We worked at St. Joseph. But back to the home tour. What an affirmation it was for Tulsa to step forward and do what they did. This is not New York. And we were not Liz Taylor. But to have the people support us in all of this was unbelievable. And the decorators that I knew in town, each decorator did a room for St. Joseph. It was like a home. And a lot of the people would say this is, they died in a place that was more comfortable and more beautiful than they had lived in. We had, I did the living room, anyway, all of the decorators. And one of them ended up dying in one of the homes, one of the rooms that he had painted clouds on the ceiling and done the decor in the room. So it was a good time, but a very sad time to see people dying like they were. Today, you know, I'm on, and with losing all the friends, I made a promise to God that I found in my life that I would support AIDS fundraising as long as I lived or until there was a cure. I'm dealing with a health problem today myself, but I'm upright. And I have new hope, thanks to the power of prayer and positive thinking and good medicine that I'm going to be around a while. I had cancer 20 years ago when I was 3 years sober and into the candlelight tour and had surgery and it came back 10 years later. https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 9 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM Charles Faudree: And I had 7 weeks of radiation and then it came back 3 years ago in the shoulder, in my shoulder, and today it's in 5 places in my bone. But I'm doing, I've been doing chemo since March. I did my first chemo the day of our Red Ribbon Gala. Toby Jenkins: Last year? Charles Faudree: Last year. Toby Jenkins: And how much money did they raise that night? Charles Faudree: $300,000 maybe $400,000. Toby Jenkins: No, it was more than that. It was five or six. I was there. They were honoring you. Charles Faudree: Yes, and what a surprise it was. I knew I was getting a little reward, but I didn't know the whole ink. I would have insisted on more people or more friends come, but I thought it was just another one of those glass awards. But it came at a wonderful time for me, because it was a very low and fearful time, because my doctor had said, this is not curable, but we will do everything we can to maintain it. And we have, and they have and I have. I ended up having what everyone thought was part of the cancer. I actually had Trigeminal Neuralgia, which is a disease that they never know what is brought on, but it's by a nerve that is in your skull right above your ear. But I had this pain that electric shoots would shoot to my head and caused me to have an earache that was pounding and half of my teeth ached as if I had a toothache. So I first went to my dentist who pulled. I'm telling you now this, I'm on a roll, but the dentist said, well, I think it's your back tooth. He pulled the tooth. I'm going to France. So I said, I'm going to France in 10 days, so I need the quickest cure. He said, well, the quickest is to pull it. So they pulled it. I went to France. 10 days later, a week later, I came home. Charles Faudree: I still had the toothache. So I went back to the dentist and he said, well, I think it's the next tooth. He pulled that tooth. Three weeks later, I still had pain. I went to him and he sent me to, I don't know, my terminology is not in the medical field. I think it was an endocrologist or something to diagnose what was wrong with my teeth. So they pulled my third tooth, which had nothing to do with the teeth, it was all this Xgeva that I had been taking for bone density had caused some deterioration of the bone in my jaw, which had caused this trigeminal. But I had gone to even my own doctor, Dr. Gawey, and said, everyone is doing their part, but what about this severe pain that I have in my head and in my ears and my eye? And a lady came in my shop and said, you have the same symptoms that my mother had. And CyberKnife took care of it. So I called Dr. Gawey again and met with https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 10 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM him and said, CyberKnife. So he said, well, we will try that. I don't think that's what it is. But trust me, it was CyberKnife. The woman in charge, the surgeon, or actually she's a radiologist that runs the CyberKnife, diagnosed it immediately. And I took CyberKnife, and I am totally pain-free. Thank you, CyberKnife. Thank you, God. Thank you, the power of prayer. Because I've had people praying for me that I didn't even know. I've gotten cards from people I didn't know. But what is so incredible is to live to be 75 and see the change that has been made. And I know, you know, I'm irritated. I wish all of us would have approached this gay marriage with another term than marriage, if we would have just said anything else but marriage. I know it would have passed in every state. Because every friend I have thinks that we deserve the same equal rights that every married people have. And I believe it. And I may not, you know, this red state that I'm in, I may never see that happen here. I think all we need is a legal commitment. And so that we can have legal rights when our partner is in the hospital. I have a partner of seven years that was my partner two other times for two years. And, you know, is now involved in senior care, as he calls it, taking care of me. But what a gift it is that I have him, because if I didn't, I don't know what I would do. it's a different time. We've come so far to have this equality center and you know, a lady in the, what happened this time? We have a lady in the Senate, ours, you know, that is gay. Toby Jenkins: Tammy Baldwin? Charles Faudree: Yes. You know, it's, I know we're making headway. We've made such headway in the 50 years since I've been out. You know, I would like to say this to all the young people, you know, dealing with coming out. You know, I have a friend now that has a daughter that's a senior in high school and has come out and the mother embraces her beautifully and she also is housing a girl that is 18 that her mother and dad kicked her out. So she's living with my friend Chrissy as well as her daughter. You know, there are people that don't understand this but the truth is, you know, I think gay people, young gay people should give their parents time to embrace it. You know, it took me a time to embrace it myself. We, I didn't, as Leslie Jordan said, I didn't fall out of my mother's womb in red heels. I was a Catholic and I dealt with it. It was a bad time, but it is a good time now. And, you know, I don't know what to say more than that except be thankful for where we are, never give up. You know, I can tell you because of being gay, I have learned to love myself. I'm not afraid to die, but yet I want to live more than I've ever wanted to live. So I'm glad to be https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 11 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM here today and hope that I helped someone with their story or helped their acceptance. Acceptance is a hard thing right now. Acceptance for me is really hard. I can't do what I want to do. I can't jump up and hang a picture on the wall. I haven't been able to travel because of germs on a commercial flight. I have a few clients that have private planes, but I'm on a new mission that just three weeks now that allow me to travel. And I take chemo four times. I mean, I take four pills a day that are chemo instead of the drip in my shunt. So my prayer is that it works and I won't have to go back to the regular chemo because my limitations are not as great as they were. I'm able to fly again. Toby Jenkins: Charles, I want to ask you about, I think the way you have framed this, I wish you had run for office. This is so eloquent the way you've said it, especially the advice you've given to young people. I first got to know you when I had first come out. I'd been fired by the district attorney and kicked out of the biggest church in town. And I found St. Jerome's Church. And that's actually where I got to know you and your mother. Charles Faudree: And my mother. Toby Jenkins: Who, I lived in the same neighborhood as she did. And as my children grew up, we would go down and visit with her on Saturdays and sometimes walk her little dog. I don't remember the little dogs now. But that's where I got attached to you and your mom. How important was finding a place that helped you blend the spiritual part of your life with the authentic self? How important was that? Charles Faudree: It was one of the greatest things that ever happened. Not only for that, but for my mother. I found St. Joseph's purely by accident. We used to have an AIDS walk every AIDS day from one church to another church. And we walked to this church. And I was with Hilary Kitz, who was in some office position then. And we walked and we went to St. Jerome's. I'd never seen that church. I knew it was sort of there because I had helped at St. Joseph's and it was right behind St. Joseph's Church hospice. But I got there and Father Rick was there, a gay priest, and he embraced everybody and I felt at home. So I said to Hilary, I think I'll come back to this church. Because I will tell you, with an alcoholic personality, if you get a little spiritual life, I wanted more. And I missed the pomp and circumstance or the ritual that the Catholic Church had, but I hated the judgment that they had. I still loathe going to a Catholic funeral when they say, would you please be seated while the Catholics take communion. had Father Sweat, he was in my shop today, and I had Father Sweat call and say, can I anoint you, Charles? It's not about dying, it's about living. And I said, Father, you know I https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 12 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM go to another church. And he said, yes, but if I would anoint you, you could come to the convent, which I'm trying to get to heaven any way I can. I had redone and dedicated all my fabrics and furniture to the convent living room. He said, you know all the nuns and come and go to mass on a Sunday, and I will anoint you, and you will be forgiven and you can take communion. And I should have hung up on him. I would be forgiven and I could take communion. You know, I have been forgiven for 23 years. I haven't gone any place that I wouldn't take my God with me. Now, back before when I would fall asleep in places, I took myself to some lonely places. So I found St. Jerome's and I went back that next Sunday, and I've gone Sunday since that I'm in town. I didn't know anybody in that church when I went back, except Father Rick, I had met once at a fundraiser and he thanked me for helping with other fundraisers. But I went back and later I came on the vestry. I met Toby there. And Toby, so my mother one Sunday said, Charles, why don't I go to the church with you? And I said, mother, this, so she, I said, well, that's fine. I'll pick you up. I took her to that church and she took communion. So after church, what a great time it was in my mother's life because she was in her eighties and I got to know her at a different time because my mother was very independent. My mother was a saint. I never heard her say a cuss word. I never saw her say a bad word about any of my sister's ex-husbands or talk about anybody. I wish I were more like her, but she, she said, Charles, I know that's not a Catholic church. So she started going to that church with me and we would have lunch every day. And all of these people like Toby embraced her. She was the matriarch of that church. She loved all the attention I got. She got, she, I'd say, mother, you look good today in red. She said, well, I wore red last week and they gave me so many compliments. Toby and someone else carried her up the steps the last Sunday that she went to church. She early on said, I want to join this church. And father Rick went to her and said, Ruby, you know, this church is not Catholic and the Catholic church would not approve of it. And she said, do you believe that? He said, no. And she said, I don't either. While an affirmation to me as her gay son, that she joined that church, the day that she joined that church, she was 86 and a 19 year old boy, 18 year old boy joined that church. There was not a dry eye in that church. So my sister has since joined that church. She has served on the vestry. We still have more straight people than we did. We have a more mixed race but fewer than I would like. I would like that church to be all, it totally is inclusive. Everyone is invited at the table. But I wish it were a bigger congregation. But Father Rick says, we https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 13 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM are here for those that have no other place to go and not accepted at other churches. So I have to remember that. So, you know, Francie and I have donated a wonderful stained glass window over the altar in memory of my mother who made her, was a motive of her getting up, putting her makeup on and going to church to be embraced with all the members of that church. Toby Jenkins: Well, that is beautiful. And as you know, I would have been, I probably would not have lived a month if I had not had St. Jerome's because spirituality was such an important part of my life. And I had been treated so hostile by the church that I had served so faithfully that if I had not been at St. Jerome's and met people like your mother and the wonderful people there, I probably would not have survived. So really the success of Oklahomans for Equality today, the largest gay rights organization in 43 states, a lot of that has to do with there was a place to help me not feel like that I had been abandoned by God. Just recently, last week, the Human Rights Campaign rated 137 cities across America on how good of cities those were for gay people to live in. And Charles, you may not be aware, but the Oklahoma City and Tulsa and even Wichita and other cities in this region, none of us got real high ratings and they rated Tulsa below 50%. I was interviewed by the media and I told them I felt like HRC had given us a low rating and it wasn't true of what the city was like. What are your thoughts? Do you feel like Tulsa is a welcoming, inclusive city to someone like yourself? Or do you feel like it's a hostile environment for gay people? You know, I don't, I don't think it is. I think it's, I mean, it's like I said earlier up in my story, I have never, ever felt as a minority with the people I work with and all the clients that I have. They have embraced me unbelievably. I will tell you back when I had my first shop, you know, 50 years ago, there was only one bar and it was totally disguised so you almost went underground and I had someone come in my shop with a badge and flash it and tell me that he was under the impression that I was gay and if I would give him a list of gay people in Oklahoma, I would be safe. And I said, well, it's totally an assumption on your part and thank God that's all I said because I went to the back room of my shop and called a gay attorney that Rogers, Bill Rogers, which a lot of you know, I called him and he said, I'll pick you up at the back door and he said, you said the right thing. But that's, I mean, that is a long time ago and you know, we don't feel that way today and it's like I said, it's only a little part of my life today because I feel safe and loved and embraced in Tulsa. https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 14 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM Tulsa, you know, it's not, you know, because of the books I've written, I've been on speaking tours and they always say, if you could live anywhere, where would you live? And I say Tulsa, I love living in Tulsa, you know, because it's like I said, 25 years ago, they stepped out and have supported me in everything that I have asked for, in the way of AIDS, our fundraising for gay rights. Toby Jenkins: Well, I just think that is a wonderful way to conclude our interview. Addendum: Charles Faudree Obituary Charles Hamlet Faudree was born February 27, 1938 in Ada, OK to Ruby May (Brewer) and Hamlet Charles Faudree. He passed from this life Wednesday, November 27, 2013 at the age of 75. Charles attended St. Joseph's High School in Muskogee, OK and graduated from Northeastern State College in Tahlequah, OK with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Art Education. He was gifted beyond measure in the field of interior design and was adored around the globe for his attention to detail, his blending of myriad blues and his abject love of all things French. Charles was honored by House Beautiful as one of the top designers in the United States and was the best-selling author of six books on interior design. His fabric and wallpaper lines marketed through Stroheim and his work covered by Veranda, House Beautiful, Southern Accents and Traditional Home among others, Charles leaves an indelible legacy in the field of interior design. A believer in strong community support, he touched the lives of countless Tulsans as the founder of The Hope Candlelight Tour, a passionate supporter of Tulsa CARES, an avid follower and advocate of AA and an enthusiastic parishioner of Parish Church of St. Jerome, ECC and, as well, a bell ringer at Christmas for the Salvation Army. Charles, throughout his life possessed an irrepressible sense of humor and quick wit, was an ardent prankster with a laugh that could light up a room and he collected friends from every walk of life and from every corner of the world. A humble man, generous of spirit beyond measure, caring more about others than self, he loved and lived life to the fullest extent possible and considered himself extraordinarily blessed to have had the support and love of a small and treasured family, the adoration and companionship of a cadre of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, and the loyalty and admiration of https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 15 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM an extraordinary number of friends and acquaintances - all of whom considered themselves equally blessed to have called him friend. Charles will be long remembered as a fabulous brother to Francie Faudree Gillman; a caring and loving partner to Bill Carpenter; and, a steadfast companion to Ruby and Lila. A memorial service will be held 11:00 AM Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at Trinity Episcopal Church, 501 S. Cincinnati Ave., Tulsa, OK In lieu of flowers, friends may contribute in Charles' memory to Tulsa CARES at www.tulsacares.org or Parish Church of St. Jerome, ECC at www.stjerometulsa.org. Tulsa World November 29, 2013 Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 The décor expert and longtime presence on Cherry Street was known worldwide. C harles Faudree, a renowned Tulsa-based interior designer and philanthropist, died Wednesday. He was 75. Services are pending with Ninde Brookside Funeral Home. Best known as an expert in French Country décor, Faudree kept a longtime shop and studio in Tulsa's Cherry Street district, and over his 35-year career worked with clients worldwide, won many honors and saw his work featured in various books and magazines. A noted philanthropist as well, Faudree was the guest of honor in March at Tulsa CARES' https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 16 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM 15th annual Red Ribbon Gala, which supports people affected by HIV/AIDS. https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 17 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM Faudree was a founding member of the organization. Local artist Patrick "Pat" Gordon knew Faudree for nearly 40 years. "There really wasn't a much better human as Charles," he said. That's not easy to say in this time and day. Charles had the ability to make you feel like you were the most important human being that ever breathed. He was just focused on you. If you didn't know him, your life is a little quieter for it." Former Mayor Kathy Taylor was a client. She said Faudree made an impact not just on the state but for the state. Taylor said his eyes were full of deep kindness and he always had a smile on his face. "When you were with Charles, you always thought you were the only person in his life at that moment," she said. "He would put himself and his incredible talent aside and really focused on making you feel like a great friend and a great person." Interior design wasn't Faudree's first career move. A native of Muskogee, Faudree graduated from Northeastern State University in Tahlequah with an art degree and from there attended the Kansas City Art Institute. https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 18 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 He went on to teach art and sell home furnishings, living in Dallas for several 1/26/26, 11:52 AM years. But since he was a boy, when his mother had allowed him to choose his own paint colors for his room, Faudree had an interest in interior design. In late 1977, with his 40th birthday approaching, he decided to move back to Muskogee and open a design studio and antiques shop. Helping redesign a home there for his sister, Francie, Faudree suddenly found himself launched on a new career. Within a few years, Faudree was building an impressive list of clients from across the U.S. and Europe, and his designs were appearing in such magazines as House Beautiful, Southern Living, Traditional Home and House and Garden, as well as a number of decorating books. Named Traditional Home's Designer of the Year in 1995, he was later hailed by House Beautiful as one of America's top 100 interior designers for three consecutive years, 2002-04. Among his higher-profile projects abroad, Faudree was involved in the ongoing restoration of the historic estate La Finca la Caprichosa in Spain. Closer to home, Faudree in 1995 assisted former Oklahoma first lady Cathy Keating in refurbishing the Governor's Mansion. https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 19 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 In the early 1970s, Faudree was one of the founders of Oklahomans for Human 1/26/26, 11:52 AM Rights in Oklahoma City. He worked with others to found a Tulsa chapter of OHR □ the forerunner of Oklahomans for Equality □ in the late 1970s. He was on the design team for the renovation of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in downtown Tulsa and designed the center's board room. Tracy Salisbury, owner of T.A. Lorton, said Faudree touched many people worldwide and had an undeniable gift as an interior designer. "We had this funny relationship, said Salisbury, who had known Faudree since she was 15. She had her senior internship with him. "He was a grandfather to my children, a brother to me, a best friend □ just like he is with many people. Charles is a most cherished friend of mine. He is irreplaceable in my life and my family's." Faudree wrote five books on design. His first, in 2003, "Charles Faudree's Country French Signature," was released by Gibbs-Smith Publishers and is now in its ninth printing with more than 60,000 copies sold. https://tulsaworld.com/obituaries/localobituaries/renowned-tulsa-bas…audree-dies-at-75/article_4827f46c-5846-5c8e-8c2a-d94e08ee8551.html Page 20 of 21 �Renowned Tulsa-based interior designer Charles Faudree dies at 75 1/26/26, 11:52 AM In 2008, Faudree created his own fabric line, a first for him, collaborating with Tulsa-based textile brand Vervain. Although French Country remained his favorite □ Southern décor was also high on his list □ Faudree believed that good decorating was "about the mix and not the match" and that varying styles, both old and modern, could be brought together to create settings of beauty and comfort. Faudree also had a passion for dogs. He owned several of his favorite breed, Cavalier King Charles spaniels, over the last 25 years, while building an impressive collection of dog paintings and statues. Faudree is survived by his partner, Bill Carpenter, and a sister, Francie Faudree Gillman. 21 � https://history.okeq.org/files/original/afadae3c8c3311539745e4ef62a6ad06.pdf 7cbb2a826cc47dfcaa822f8bebf2d481 PDF Text Text Charles Faudree was an important part of the design team who helped bring about Oklahomans for Equality Dennis R. Neill Equality Center dedicated in Tulsa in 2007. Charles passed away in 2013. The information below is from his obituary. Charles Hamlet Faudree was born February 27, 1938 in Ada, OK to Ruby May (Brewer) and Hamlet Charles Faudree. He passed from this life Wednesday, November 27, 2013 at the age of 75. Charles attended St. Joseph's High School in Muskogee, OK and graduated from Northeastern State College in Tahlequah, OK with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Art Education. He was gifted beyond measure in the field of interior design and was adored around the globe for his attention to detail, his blending of myriad blues and his abject love of all things French. Charles was honored by House Beautiful as one of the top designers in the United States and was the best-selling author of six books on interior design. His fabric and wallpaper lines marketed through Stroheim and his work covered by Veranda, House Beautiful, Southern Accents and Traditional Home among others, Charles leaves an indelible legacy in the field of interior design. A believer in strong community support, he touched the lives of countless Tulsans as the founder of The Hope Candlelight Tour, a passionate supporter of Tulsa CARES, an avid follower and advocate of AA and an enthusiastic parishioner of Parish Church of St. Jerome, ECC and, as well, a bell ringer at Christmas for the Salvation Army. Charles, throughout his life possessed an irrepressible sense of humor and quick wit, was an ardent prankster with a laugh that could light up a room and he collected friends from every walk of life and from every corner of the world. A humble man, generous of spirit beyond measure, caring more about others than self, he loved and lived life to the fullest extent possible and considered himself extraordinarily blessed to have had the support and love of a small and treasured family, the adoration and companionship of a cadre of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, and the loyalty and admiration of an extraordinary number of friends and acquaintances - all of whom considered themselves equally blessed to have called him friend. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Toby Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Charles Faudree Location The location of the interview Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Video Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 42 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2012] Charles Faudree Oral History Interview Subject The topic of the resource Interview of Charles Faudree by OkEq Executive Director Toby Jenkins Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins on December 4, 2012. Born on February 27, 1938, in Ada, Oklahoma, Charles spent his early years in Muskogee, Oklahoma. He graduated from Northeastern State University in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. He taught art in a junior high in Tulsa, then relocated to Oklahoma City to open a design store. Later he returned to Tulsa and continued his retail design and furniture store occupation while becoming one of the best-known interior designers in the United States, specializing in French style and antiques. He was instrumental in funding early work in Tulsa to assist those living with AIDS through his work with Tulsa Cares and overseeing the design of St. Joseph’s House in Tulsa. He worked with Kirk Holt of Cisar/Holt in rallying designers to help with the improvements at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center which serves as the home of Oklahomans for Equality. Charles passed on November 27, 2013 in Tulsa. Physical tapes not yet located. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Toby Jenkins, Charles Faudree, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 4, 2012 2012 AIDS AIDS/HIV biography Charles Faudree Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center HIV HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDs outreach Hope Candlelight Tour interview Kirk Holt Northeastern State University Northeastern State University (NSU) NSU Obituaries Obituary OkEq OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahomans for Equality Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) oral history Oral History Project Parish Church of Saint Jerome Parish Church of St. Jerome Saint Joseph's House Salvation Army St. Joseph's House Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa CARES video Vintage Series https://history.okeq.org/files/original/6da3185e3c9411346acb45f174dd3c31.jpg 98c26387f8be6f490a4a4fa8804ee6c2 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/98b5266fc83c9948564198c691c566c6.mp4 0c0146cc3f558b39b5d63d4dae7ac832 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/062906c82060eb043f35e0daa45468ba.pdf 569c6056020b1a38f0eec877c89425b5 PDF Text Text Jimmy Flowers Story Subject Jimmy Flowers Description From Julie Tucker - Trainum, August 2019 - Jimmy Flowers was one of the very first members of the AIDS Coalition in Tulsa. he was a young man when he was part of Stonewall and in his interview he talks about Stonewall. jimmy died in the mid 2000s. he was interviewed so we could share his story at the YST support group "Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity." Creator Julie Tucker-Trainum, Youth Services of Tulsa Date Interview was conducted in 1999 or 2000 Original Format VHS Duration 1 hour 20 minutes [00:00:00] Julie Trainum: And we're here to talk to a fellow by the name of Jimmy Flowers, and Jimmy is 41. He told me his age, so I hope he doesn't mind me telling the tape. And all the things that you're seeing on these tables are things that Jimmy has gathered up over the years, specifically about the gay movement. And all of these things are very, very telling, but probably the best person that can tell is Jimmy himself. And he's been real interested in talking with us and with the young people to let them know what he went through and the things that he saw. [00:00:36] Julie Trainum: So, Jimmy, how are you? [00:00:38] Jimmy Flowers: Well, so far so good. [00:00:40] Julie Trainum: So far so good? [00:00:41] Jimmy Flowers: Yeah. [00:00:41] Julie Trainum: Can you begin a little bit with your history and saying what happened with you when you were a youngster? You can maybe talk specifically about when you first understood that you were gay and what happened with your family. [00:00:59] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, I've always known that I was gay. Number two, I was about 11 years old, and what happened was that I was kissing a guy underneath the staircase. He was 14 and I was 11, just kissing. And then my father, of course, he was the supervisor of the building. And I didn't realize he was home, and he caught me underneath the staircase, kissing the guy. He dragged me by the hair and sort of beat me, slapped me around, saying it wasn't natural, it was disgusting, it was a sin, and everything like that. [00:01:45] Jimmy Flowers: And my mother started yelling at me and, you know. Then took me to the school psychiatrist. This is going back to 1966. [00:01:54] Julie Trainum: And you were about 11 at the time? [00:01:56] Jimmy Flowers: I was about 11. I can't remember exactly every date or detail, but I was about 11, 11 and a half maybe. And what happened was that they thought at that time that if you were gay or lesbian, if they catch you at an early age that you would become a heterosexual. And so they put me in a mental institution for almost two and a half, three years. And in that time, they tried to come to us that we were sick, 1 �that it wasn't natural, that we were sinners of God. And they also, some of the things they did was very disgusting. [00:02:40] Jimmy Flowers: They forced us to be in the same room with another lesbian young woman. We were both nude. They thought if we saw each other's body that we would be attracted to each other. But unfortunately it didn't work that way. And then they showed us pictures of videotapes of men and women having sex. [00:03:04] Julie Trainum: And this is still when you were a youngster? [00:03:08] Jimmy Flowers: Oh yes. They thought if we saw the actual lovemaking of heterosexuals making love, intercourse, that it would change us to become heterosexuals. We were constantly pumped in our heads that we were not gay. At that time, we didn't know the word gay. We used the word fancy because it wasn't offensive to us. We didn't like the word homosexual. We didn't like the word homo or faggot or queer or bull dyke or lesbians. So therefore we used the word fancy because it wasn't too offensive. Then, in this time, they showed the male tenants, which was the guard. [00:04:00] Jimmy Flowers: Forgive me if I get a little bit emotional because some of the things that happened in the mental institution, you wouldn't believe unless you saw it yourself. I was given Thorazine and child treatment to become straight. And I kept on saying I was born gay. It's a little bit hard to explain because I like the word gay. I said I was born to be a fancy. And they brought a priest in since they thought I was on the religious side. They brought a priest in. And the priest said to me, and I'll never forget it. [00:04:48] Jimmy Flowers: He said, you are a sinner of God and it's wrong. It's not natural. It's against nature. And I just kept on saying I was born this way. [00:04:57] Jimmy Flowers: And then he slapped me, and I got a little bit angry, and I took Grant's collar from his neck, he was a Roman Catholic priest, and I said how dare you call yourself a man of God, if you are. That's pretty courageous for a youngster. I was about 11, 11 and a half, 12 maybe. And some gays and some young lesbians, they thought they were safe, and they committed suicide because they could not change. [00:05:32] Jimmy Flowers: And they made a stand up while they took a 14 year old lesbian young woman, and laid her down while the male attendants, she wanted to shoot me, while the male attendants forced us to watch while they were having intercourse with her. They thought by us watching, all the gay males we lined up, and the young gay females lined up on each side. They thought that they would make us to be straight, and they were constantly crinkling into our ears that we were sick. [00:06:31] Jimmy Flowers: So there was a lot of reason for young gay and lesbian kids to not come out, and to not say, and not let other people know because of the possibility that this would happen. So anyway, the young lesbian woman, a few months later, I don't want to go into every single detail because it would take hours and hours. The young lesbian woman, she was pregnant, and she committed suicide in her own room, and she hung herself. And I discovered her because we were friends. They had the females on one side, and the males on the other. [00:07:20] Jimmy Flowers: And I was the one that found her, and I will never forget that. Then there was a gay, we started a hunger strike in the mental institution, which was called Primory and King's Park State Hospital. And then there was another one called King's County. And during that time, there was this gay psychiatrist and gay therapist that was helping us getting out of the place. Of course, we had to lie and say we were straight, and that we enjoyed having sex with women, and the women enjoyed having sex with men. [00:08:06] Jimmy Flowers: And I promised myself, once I get out of that place, that I would never lie again. And I haven't lied since then, and I'm not going to now, and I never will until the day I die. Let's go ahead and cut there for a second. After I got out, it was about 1968. Did you go back to your parents? Yes, I went back to my family. And things were still, I had to pretend that I had a girlfriend, and then went to high school. During that time I was put away, I didn't have no school at all. And then I was kicked out of high school for trying to start a gay movement. [00:08:52] Jimmy Flowers: And that was back in 69, but we didn't call it a gay movement, we called it the Pansy Movement. Now I can laugh at it, but then it was serious. Was that in Brooklyn? No, at that time we lived in the Bronx, Bronx, New York. Then my mother and father, they found out I was still gay, they kicked me out 2 �of the house. I was about 14 and a half years old, or 14 or 14 and a half. I roamed the streets, lived from one person to the next. [00:09:25] Jimmy Flowers: And then there was hundreds, literally hundreds of young lesbians and young gay men that was actually kicked out of the streets for being gay. Because their family couldn't deal with it. And, um... [00:09:43] Jimmy Flowers: Then there was Spanish in society, and they wanted us to be good little boys and girls and not to kiss in public or to hold hands in public. They were using the word flaunting our gayness. And then we were all young. There was lesbians, there was gay blacks, there was gay Puerto Ricans, there was gay religious lesbians from all walks of life that was kicked out in the streets because of being gay. [00:10:17] Julie Trainum: It's a real diverse crowd out there. Real diverse. [00:10:21] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. The young gay blacks was considered a disgrace to their race if they were gay. A lesbian woman wasn't a real woman. They used slogans like, oh, what you need is a good man. And they used to use the word revise to the gay men that what you really need was a good woman. And we used to sock it back to them. I said, no. What you need is a good woman, and what we need is a good man. And so one guy, I remember one guy would say, you're not a real man. I said, how do you know? I said, did you have one? Of course, I'm a man's man. [00:11:10] Jimmy Flowers: And so therefore, if you haven't had a man, then you're not a man. And the lesbians used to sock it to them on their level too. Well, you're not a real woman until you have a woman, you know. [00:11:24] Julie Trainum: So a lot of the young people who were kind of on the street had to make up their own philosophy of living. [00:11:31] Jimmy Flowers: Right. [00:11:31] Julie Trainum: And philosophy of being gay and what that felt like. [00:11:34] Jimmy Flowers: Right. I'm not ashamed of it. I had to do some hustling to be able to hustle, and I was a go-go boy at the Stonewall. [00:11:45] Julie Trainum: What does that mean, go-go boy? [00:11:47] Jimmy Flowers: A go-go boy dancer. I should have brought my uniform, but they called me the gay midnight cowboy. That was part of my act. I had a black cowboy hat, purple shirt with white fringes, purple hot pants with silver sequins and cowboy boots. And of course, I was on the platform, and that's how I made to put food in my stomach. And at that time, I had to hustle because who was going to give a 14-and-ahalf-year-old person, young person, a full-time job or housing? And a lot of young lesbians and young gays had to do that. [00:12:26] Jimmy Flowers: But we protected each other, and we stood in a group. And we also protected the old ones that were taking us in, and we were not abused. We were not forced to have sex with them. As a matter of fact, there used to be a joke about me because I felt guilty for taking money for sex. So while they were sleeping, I used to get out and clean their apartments. So there used to be a joke going around saying, take the redhead because you get two for the price of one. Then came the raids of the bars constantly. Now we're getting into 69. [00:13:13] Julie Trainum: And this is in Brooklyn? [00:13:15] Jimmy Flowers: No, Manhattan. Greenwich Village. Then we started arguing with the police. There were entrapments of police undercover. There were police officers undercover taking license plates, numbers of cars that was in the neighborhood because they presumed that everybody in that section of the neighborhood were all gay, all lesbians. They were raiding the lesbian bars constantly, and the gay bars. We wasn't allowed to hold hands in our own bars. We wasn't allowed to sit close together, more than 12 feet. [00:13:56] Jimmy Flowers: And plainclothes cops used to come in and make sure that we did not do these things or slow dance together. There was also the gay rich was being blackmailed by plainclothes cops. 3 �[00:14:12] Julie Trainum: The gay, say that again. [00:14:12] Jimmy Flowers: The gay rich. [00:14:14] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:14:14] Jimmy Flowers: Because they had money. [00:14:16] Julie Trainum: I see. [00:14:16] Jimmy Flowers: And if they were caught in the section and the plainclothes cops caught them in that area, they just assumed that they were automatically gay and they would call up their boss and tell him that they were gay and they wouldn't have a job, they'd be fired. [00:14:29] Julie Trainum: I see. [00:14:29] Jimmy Flowers: And then at that time, there was lesbians that were beaten up, gay men that was found in the Hudson River that was dead. With their thing cut off, found in the Hudson River. And then at that time, we had signs on the bars that said, enter in your own grips, you may be arrested. Some lesbians was raped by male undercover cops. [00:14:58] Jimmy Flowers: Years later, we found out those license plates that they had, which was over 100,000 license plates they had, was going to the FBI. What license plates were those? Lesbians and gays and people that was parked in the Greenwich Village area. [00:15:17] Julie Trainum: Okay, so they would take that information, the cars parked in the village area and send it to the FBI? Right. [00:15:24] Jimmy Flowers: At that time, that's what they did, and they called it a scare tactic. [00:15:30] Julie Trainum: Scare tactic. [00:15:31] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, to keep gays and lesbians away from getting together and uniting. [00:15:39] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:15:39] Jimmy Flowers: At that time, we started having arguments with Mattachine Society. [00:15:46] Julie Trainum: Tell us a little bit about what that organization is. [00:15:49] Jimmy Flowers: Well, Mattachine Society started after World War II, about 1945, and they did a lot of things. They did help out a lot of people through courts, and they helped try to get a gay rights bill passed, a lesbian gay rights bill passed, secretly behind the scenes. [00:16:12] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:16:12] Jimmy Flowers: They believed and dressed in ties and suits, and women, lesbian women, had to wear high heels and dresses and be very conservative. [00:16:24] Julie Trainum: What was their theory behind this dress and doing things behind the scenes? [00:16:28] Jimmy Flowers: Well, their theory figured that not let the public, the religious groups, or the straight community know what was going on in the world. They wanted to try to pass the bill of rights for lesbians and gays secretly behind the scenes, behind the doors. [00:16:49] Julie Trainum: So as to not make waves? [00:16:51] Jimmy Flowers: Right, not to make waves, and Mattachine Society were the older people at that time. Remember, the ones that lived on the streets, the homeless, lesbians and gays, and young gays, we were all young, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 years of age, 19, 20, some was even 13, and the youngest was 12 and a half years old, believe it or not. And then the older ones that was part of Mattachine, they were in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 4 �and 60s, and they used to come out at us for holding hands in public. Don't do that, the cops will get you arrested. [00:17:40] Julie Trainum: Okay, so that was the beginning of some of those arguments you were saying? [00:17:43] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. [00:17:43] Julie Trainum: So they did not like the fact that you were much more out in your appearance? [00:17:49] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:17:49] Jimmy Flowers: They said you ruined everything that we were trying to accomplish, and we turned around and we said, well, this is 1969, and you've had since 1945 to do something, and it's time for a change, and the change is now. Well, the cops came and raided the Stonewall, and 200 of us took to the streets. Yes, there was drag queens there, there was lesbians, there was gay blacks, gay Puerto Ricans, but we were not all drag queens, let me just make that very clear. We were from all walks of life, all colors. [00:18:29] Julie Trainum: Has that been something that they've tried to state over and over, that it was just the drag queens that rioted? [00:18:36] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. [00:18:37] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:18:37] Jimmy Flowers: Even, I got to admit, even the gay press keeps on saying drag queens. It just didn't happen like that. What has happened to be to Stonewall was incidents of the raiding of bars, being put away for being gay, entrapments, license plates being taken, beating up of lesbians and gays, dead bodies of gay males being found in the Hudson River, harassment, blackmail of the gay rich because they paid off the cops because they were afraid to lose their jobs. Lesbians were being raped by plainclothes cops, beaten up, and they were forced to fight back. [00:19:25] Julie Trainum: So people, in a sense, have had their fill of the harassment and the hatred, so that when that particular bar was raided... [00:19:35] Jimmy Flowers: It wasn't just that particular bar. [00:19:37] Julie Trainum: Was it not? [00:19:38] Jimmy Flowers: It started... See, all the bars in that area was being raided like every weekend. [00:19:44] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:19:44] Jimmy Flowers: But, the Stonewall, we're the ones that came out of the Stonewall and we said, enough is enough, we're going to take the streets now. [00:19:57] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:19:58] Jimmy Flowers: And that was the word gay. And we started using the word gay. A lot of people, even some of the gay people themselves, don't like to use the word gay. They don't use the word homosexual. Well, we name ourselves gay. [00:20:13] Jimmy Flowers: Homosexuality, faggot, queer, fruit, homo, pansy, bull dyke, lesbian, all those names were labeled on us by society. The word gay, we took as being proud. And the word lesbian, as proud as being a lesbian woman. So then, then we start taking into the streets. And we started turning over police cars and we started dancing in the streets and we started yelling out gay rights now. And I remember this big black guy, about six foot four, something like that, kicked up a paddy wagon and turned it over. [00:20:59] Jimmy Flowers: And three lesbians pulled over the paddy wagons and the best fighters, I gotta admit, was the drag queens and the lesbians. And, but people like me too was there too. We were, I was the one that was underneath the paddy wagon as they were pulling the gays and lesbians into the paddy wagon, I was underneath the paddy wagon punching the cops between the legs. And then as they were going out, the lesbians, 5 �gays were running out of the paddy wagons. Jim, you were back there when I was a little girl. Well, you know, at that time, you did what you had to do. [00:21:41] Jimmy Flowers: And about how old were you at the time then? I was about 14 and a half years old, 15 years old. And there were some other gay youth there as well? And that's that one thing we all had in common. We were all young and we were all gay and lesbians. Let's stop there for just a second, okay? Yeah, all right. [00:22:03] Jimmy Flowers: As I was saying before, when they were dragging in the lesbians and gays, I was underneath the paddy wagon punching below the belt of the police officers and the lesbians and gays would run out of the paddy wagon while the cops were going out, you know? Okay, great. And then we started marching in the streets, yelling out gay rights now and this and that. And they would throw gas bombs at us and we had handkerchiefs we wrapped around our faces and we threw it back at the cops. And we was turning over the paddy wagon to the police cars. [00:22:44] Jimmy Flowers: We marched to the 10th precinct, which was the Greenwich Village Police Station. And we marched around there, started singing We Shall Overcome. And then we started marching towards out of the gay ghetto. And that's when everything started beginning. We started marching up 6th Avenue. They knew that we was gonna be on 5th Avenue to St. Patrick's because see, on 5th Avenue was St. Patrick's Cathedral and sinners of God wasn't allowed to be on 5th Avenue. [00:23:16] Julie Trainum: Bless you. [00:23:18] Jimmy Flowers: And so anyway, we started marching on 6th Avenue but we had a plan. And we all ran arm to arm, black, white, young and old. Some of us, most of us was young. And we started doing the can-can. And as we started kicking the lesbians and gays, drag queens, blacks and whites, and yes, even some atheists and Christians, we started doing the can-can and started saying gay rights now, lesbian power now. And as we kicked, the police officers backed away. They took one step back and then we started taking advantage of it. Each night, the crowd grew larger. [00:24:08] Jimmy Flowers: And as we was doing the can-can down the street of 6th Avenue, the cops, they have never faced this situation before. They were scared to death of us. That night, the crowds grew to about 1,000. And we started rowing. And then when we got to 45th Street, cut off on to 5th Avenue, the cops had the barricade of police cars and the lesbians and the gay men and the drag queens and the transvestites. And we just pushed the cars off the streets and just pushed them onto the sidewalks. And then we went right on to 5th Avenue and we started marching up. [00:25:00] Jimmy Flowers: Then they had another barricade. And then we started marching towards St. Patrick's. And as we was doing the kicking in the air and singing all sorts of things, and unite, we stand, fight back now, the cops were backing up and backing up and the crowd just grew larger and larger. [00:25:24] Jimmy Flowers: That night was 1,000 and we started holding hands and marching around St. Patrick's Day, and we started singing We Shall Overcome, and we did it all night long. And then people started saying that homosexuals is taking over the country. There was headlines in the newspapers and everything, it was on the news, and then we started protesting at City Hall. The first protest at City Hall was 1970 for the gay rights. Only 40 people showed up at that time. As the year went by, the crowd at City Hall grew larger and larger and larger. [00:26:17] Jimmy Flowers: The gay and lesbian community started uniting. At one point around 1973, the politicians and the religious groups, the Orthodox Jewish community and the Catholics saying, well there's really nothing about lesbians in the Bible, it's okay to be a lesbian. And what they were trying to do is split us apart and to make us weak, because unity there is strength. So I say to the young ones today, don't let politicians or anybody split y'all up because of politics, because we are in it together and there must be unity. [00:27:06] Jimmy Flowers: Then we started marching towards politicians and we started having sit-ins and we started having sit-ins to go into the City Hall chambers and about 100 of us or 200 of us, and we started singing We Shall Overcome each and every time there was a lesbian gay rights hearing. And then we started having the Lesbian Gay Parade, which was 1970. The very first one was 1970, and we marched from Greenwich Village to Central Park, which by the way was only 9,000 people. Excellent about that. [00:27:48] Julie Trainum: Has there been one every year then? 6 �[00:27:50] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, every one, and last year, the 25th anniversary, lesbians gays from all over the world came. There was people from Switzerland, lesbians and gays from Russia, there was lesbians and gays from Puerto Rico, from Cuba, there was lesbians and gays from Texas and Oklahoma, there was lesbians and gays from Kansas City, Philadelphia, you name it, they were all there. Gays and lesbians from Alaska. [00:28:28] Julie Trainum: How many do you think, in your opinion, were actually in attendance? [00:28:32] Jimmy Flowers: Well, later on when you see the pictures up close. The newspaper says 100,000, but the newspapers always lie when it comes to lesbians and gays marching in the streets. I estimate there was close to one million lesbians and gays, and parents of gays, and friends of gays, and lesbians and gays themselves from all walks of life, from all over the world, was marching because we had three avenues. [00:29:02] Jimmy Flowers: Excuse me, I think it's important at this point to recognize that Jimmy was honored as one of the 15 only survivors from the original Stonewall Uprising, and he was honored this past year during the 20th anniversary as one of those 15,... Oklahoma in that. [00:29:25] Julie Trainum: How many Oklahomans were also in that group? Were you the only one? [00:29:31] Jimmy Flowers: I was the only one. [00:29:33] Julie Trainum: Well, we're proud of you. Let's go ahead at this point and... [00:29:36] Jimmy Flowers: But I wasn't born in Oklahoma. [00:29:38] Julie Trainum: I understand, but we have you now. We'll go ahead and stop the film for a second so that we can get up and take a look. And what we're going to do right now is take a look at some of the mementos that Jimmy has brought. We have an array of t-shirts here, and we're going to listen a little bit about what each one... [00:29:56] Julie Trainum: Where each one came from and so on and anything else that Jimmy can tell us about it. So you want to start over there with the Lambda? [00:30:04] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. The Lambda was the first gay t-shirt that lesbians and gays wore as a symbol of lesbian gay power. There was a little bit of confusion about the Lambda bit because it stood for gay males, but there was a little confusion about that too as well. [00:30:23] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:30:24] Jimmy Flowers: So this was the first lesbian gay t-shirt even though there was some confusion. This one here was about Reagan's time where two guys and we took his slogan and we said breathe my lips and there's two guys kissing. Also we started using slogans like cruise men not missiles. Then there was the gay independent democrats. We started registering people to vote and I have myself registered in New York City over 10,000 lesbians and gay voters, all democrats. [00:31:03] Julie Trainum: So you helped to get people signed up to register to vote? [00:31:05] Jimmy Flowers: Oh yes I did. [00:31:06] Julie Trainum: Excellent. [00:31:07] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:31:08] Jimmy Flowers: This is the t-shirt of the coalition. This was the original lesbian gay flag which I designed it and a lesbian woman made the flag. [00:31:20] Julie Trainum: Cool. [00:31:21] Jimmy Flowers: It was June 1st, 1976. That was the symbol, the first original lesbian gay flag. It stands for unity. This here was the first march on Washington D.C. national wise. There was other marches besides that. There was Madison Society had a group in 1966 marching in front of the White House, but this 7 �was the first national march on Washington with Harvey Milk's name. Then later on, this picture here of me, 1976, I had a t-shirt that said I'm a gay American. And that there came out in one of the gay newspapers. [00:32:10] Julie Trainum: Great. [00:32:11] Jimmy Flowers: This here, later on, there was words mixed up so we started using, we realized that some lesbians wanted to be called lesbians and some wanted to be called gay. So to make everybody happy, we decided to use the word gay and lesbian independent democrats. [00:32:31] Julie Trainum: Great. [00:32:33] Jimmy Flowers: And then here was the first picture of the first protest march at City Hall in 1970. Then comes the American Cypriot Union book around 1975. Then I got a letter from the White House, from Jimmy Carter, from the assistants. And then around 1980, I had a discrimination case against Victor Gonthown, DC-37 in New York, which sexual orientation was passed on AFCIO Union, which they took my case on, which I'm very proud of that. [00:33:18] Julie Trainum: Okay, let me just get kind of a pan shot of some of these things and a view of all the goodies that we have. [00:33:24] Jimmy Flowers: Well, this one, this one here was taken in 1976, I'm a gay American. This one here with the lesbian gay flag, the original one, in front of St. Patrick's Day, saying that we are children of God too. This one here was the first print of the original lesbian gay flag which stands for unity. [00:33:53] Julie Trainum: I like that theme a lot. I like that theme. [00:33:57] Jimmy Flowers: Then here's a pamphlet that we tried to pass in New York City. I was kicked out of a restaurant for wearing a gay t-shirt and they took my case to the human rights, which I won the first gay case in human rights back in 1978. And finally won on paper. [00:34:26] Julie Trainum: Can you tell us a little bit about the Stonewall sash that you're wearing? [00:34:31] Jimmy Flowers: Well, around 1979, Ed Murphy, one of the people in Stonewall, he was a door bouncer at the Stonewall, gave all of these banners to all the Stonewall people that was there. And I've had it since 19... [00:34:49] Jimmy Flowers: 78 something. It was purple and gold, but now it's turning into pink and gold. [00:35:04] Julie Trainum: Tell us a little about your hat. [00:35:05] Jimmy Flowers: Well, my hat has got all the buttons on it about AIDS, be safe, about lesbian and gay rights, civil rights. I'll have a talk and take it off and show you. Boycott homophobia, remember the quilt, silent equals death, stop AIDS, fight back, act up. This is the newest one, Stonewall 25, keep on marching. This symbol of AIDS awareness and over here it says gay rights are civil rights. [00:35:50] Julie Trainum: I love that one. Okay, we need to go ahead and end up this portion. [00:35:55] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. [00:35:56] Julie Trainum: And so what I will do real quick is to, these are pictures of the 25th anniversary of Stonewall. [00:36:03] Jimmy Flowers: Right here. [00:36:04] Julie Trainum: That we're taking in June of this year and some fabulous buttons. [00:36:07] Jimmy Flowers: This one here is I Am All of Us, Harvey Milk. That was printed in 1979. This one here was the first gay button and this was the second one, 1970 and 1970. And then all the other buttons came afterwards. And then we even had a button, boyfriend wanted no experience necessary. Homophobia is a social disease. Then we had this Harvey Milk riot which I will explain later what really happened on that day. 8 �And then we had the pink triangle which gays and lesbians were forced to wear during World War II as in the prisons. [00:36:58] Jimmy Flowers: The gay Jewish, I don't have here a button, but if you was gay and Jewish you wore a yellow and pink star. This one here to sign to the born again Christians. [00:37:10] Julie Trainum: Born again gay. [00:37:11] Jimmy Flowers: Born again gay. [00:37:12] Julie Trainum: Very nice. [00:37:12] Jimmy Flowers: And then there's the teddy bear here with the symbol of the male symbol of gay men. And then we have here of a cat with the lesbian symbol here on the cat. And then we had over here the pink triangle, fight for lesbian gay liberation. And then there was Gay Teachers Unite which came out about 1972. [00:37:38] Julie Trainum: Wow, that's great. We're going to go ahead and end up today's segment. And in a few days we'll get back together and take another look at the remaining memorabilia and finish up Jimmy's story. Hi Jimmy, this is December the 19th and we're back to complete hopefully our session on some of the gay history that you're very familiar with. I think we left off beginning to talk about Stonewall 25 that happened here just last June of 1994. Go ahead if you would and give us your view of what happened last June and what you saw and just go from there. [00:38:19] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, it was really beautiful. I found the George Segal statue was put up in the park which was two women and two men holding an armed arm in the park. [00:38:33] Julie Trainum: Was he the sculptor? [00:38:34] Jimmy Flowers: He was George Segal, yeah. It went through the United States and then ended up at Sheridan Square which is in Greenwich Village. And I was part of that. A lot of people was at that time in 1977 when they built the statues of two men and two women holding hands in the park. The Italians got upset and the religious right got upset. Left? [00:39:07] Julie Trainum: Right. [00:39:07] Jimmy Flowers: Right. And they got upset all about the statues. But all there is is that two women is holding arm to arm sitting on the park bench and two guys standing up holding each other with love. Well, I was glad to see that because I collected over 15,000 signatures for those statues. Wow. But I wasn't the only one. Let me put that very clear. I wasn't the only person that was doing it. [00:39:40] Julie Trainum: When did you do this project? [00:39:42] Jimmy Flowers: This was 1977-78. [00:39:44] Julie Trainum: And so you now saw them in the... [00:39:47] Jimmy Flowers: I saw them in the park at Sheridan Square which I was very proud of. [00:39:51] Jimmy Flowers: Finally they got it there. [00:39:54] Jimmy Flowers: Through court battles. They called it freedom of speech. When you show affection towards the same sex. So we used the expression freedom of speech. [00:40:06] Jimmy Flowers: Also, on the day of the parade, which was beautiful, they took up 5th Avenue, 6th Avenue, and also 1st Avenue from the United Nations building. From the United Nations building, there was lesbians and gays from all over the world. From Japan, from China, from Russia, from Italy, from Oklahoma, Texas, Ohio, Philadelphia, California, Boston, Connecticut, Africa. There was lesbians and gays from Switzerland, Italy, you name it, they were there. [00:40:51] Julie Trainum: Sounds like that was the place to get a pen pal. 9 �[00:40:53] Jimmy Flowers: It was beautiful. And the Stonewall led the whole parade, all 18 of us, that was led from the original Stonewall veterans, they called us. I didn't know I was a veteran until the 25th. But, also, from all over the world, over 25,000 ACT UP members marched up 5th Avenue, in front of St. Patrick's Metro, and passed there. And they assembled there, and they started singing, We Shall Overcome. And, of course, then they started marching again. [00:41:31] Jimmy Flowers: On 6th Avenue, over 66,000 lesbians from all over the country, in the United States, and parts of the other world, marched up 6th Avenue to Central Park. We arrived at the park about approximately 11.30am. At 6.30pm, they were still coming into the park, and the parade has not ended. The parade ended coming into the park around 9pm. So, the newspapers always lie about how many numbers there is, especially when it comes to lesbians and gays marching. The newspaper says 100,000, but that's in the pig's eye. It's a lie. [00:42:24] Jimmy Flowers: So, anyway, I, X-Men, and so did a lot of lesbians and gays that was there. XMen, there was 1 million lesbians and gays. We also had straights and gays, women for gay rights, we had parents for gay rights, we had grandmothers marching for gay rights. We had a few members from Mattachine Society that was in it for 36 years, marched too as well. There was about 5 people, I remember, from Mattachine, and they were carrying a sign, 36 years, of 2 women and 1 gay man. That was, as I can remember, from Mattachine Society that was marching. [00:43:16] Julie Trainum: So, that's 36 years of trying to fight for gay rights? [00:43:19] Jimmy Flowers: Oh, that's for gay rights. Okay. From up to last year. Okay. But, there was other gay movements before then. In 1920, Oscar Wilde in England, the case of Oscar Wilde, which by the way, the gay rights bill over there was passed about 45, 40 years ago. And, of course, I can turn around to the religious groups and tell them that see, England did not fall apart. And, the reason, one of the reasons why Queen Elizabeth I, there was no law against lesbianism, but there was laws against gay men. [00:44:06] Jimmy Flowers: Because Queen Elizabeth I believed that women don't do such things. So, therefore, there was no law against being a lesbian, only against being a gay male. Because men do do those types of things. Right. Okay. That's what they said. And, we all know that's a lie. Also, going back, now we're going to go back to 1970, 73. [00:44:37] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:44:37] Jimmy Flowers: 1970 was the Gay Activist Alliance. After we did the Stonewall, we started realizing we must stop fighting in the streets. And, start protesting peacefully and ordinarily matter. [00:44:48] Jimmy Flowers: We did, sometimes we had kiss-ins, holding hands, walking the streets, but by groups. Sometimes two or three hundred would have a kiss-in on the steps of St. Patrick's or on the steps of City Hall to show the public that here we are, we're not going to hide our affection, our love, and our tenderness to be towards each other. Because, see, gay is not just sex, as most people think that it is. Being a lesbian or being gay is not sex, it's the way of life, it's the way of love, it's the way you were born, it's the way you are. [00:45:31] Jimmy Flowers: And we are human beings and children of God just as well as anybody else. There's been Michelangelo that was gay, Jonathan and David, Einstein, and I can go down the list, which will take hours. [00:45:44] Julie Trainum: One of my favorite posters, have you seen it, is depicting all of the people, so many of the people, down through history. And it's just crowded with faces, it's really nice to see. [00:45:59] Jimmy Flowers: I love that poster. [00:45:59] Julie Trainum: Creative, talented. Very much so. [00:46:02] Jimmy Flowers: And also there was Jim Levin, Jim Levin was the gay lawyer who went around mostly towards me because I always seemed to get into trouble. Mostly because of the mouth. Not that I just stood up for what I believed in, but I got my first job in 1971 as a construction worker working on highways cleaning. And the other guys, they had black power on their helmet, kiss me I'm Italian, kiss me I'm Italian. So what I did on my hard hat, helmet, is put gay power on my helmet. 10 �[00:46:43] Jimmy Flowers: But that was totally a different story when it came to the union, D.C. 37, Victor Garfield. And then they tried to make separate bathrooms. A gay men's bathroom and a gay straight men's bathroom. And I fought that because to me that's discrimination, that's like a war fountain for whites and a war fountain for blacks. And to me that is discrimination. So anyway, also in their locker rooms, in their lockers, they had pictures of nude women. So what I did, to be myself, I put up a picture of a nude man on my locker inside my locker. [00:47:28] Jimmy Flowers: And of course that was totally a different story. At that time I had a boyfriend I was going to study with for two years. And their wives and their girlfriends came and picked up the guys from work and they hugged and kissed. You know, hello. So my boyfriend came up and we hugged and he kissed me. And brother, let me tell you, hell just broke loose. So they tried to fire me. And I went to the human rights, filed a complaint, went to D.C. 37 and filed a complaint with Victor Garfield to hit the union. The big cheese there. [00:48:13] Jimmy Flowers: And he says, we're going too far for lesbian gay rights. I said, what do you mean too far? We just want equal rights just like anybody else. And he says, well you're just going too far. And I said, no we're not. So Jim Levin was my lawyer again after a couple of cases I had. Because every time I hear or see something wrong I speak up. Then came the gay rights bill. Mostly that got me into a lot of trouble. Because I always speak up when I see or hear something wrong. Then came 1973, I believe. [00:48:55] Jimmy Flowers: The mental psychiatrists and therapists from all over the country came to New York and they were having a conference. And their discussion was, what are we going to do about these homosexuals in America? And at that time, the gay movement was just beginning to get on its high pit. [00:49:18] Julie Trainum: So it wasn't what can we do for the gay community, it was what are we going to do about? [00:49:22] Jimmy Flowers: About. About, alright. About the homosexuals in America. Mostly, they were concerned mostly of gay males. Don't ask me why, that's the way they did it. So we had a plan to have lesbians and gays to march together outside of the conference building. Which was held on 34th Street, Madison Square Garden. [00:49:49] Jimmy Flowers: And we, as we were protesting outside, about five to six hundred lesbians and gay therapists and psychiatrists came out of the closet at that time, at the conference, and the rest of the people that were inside, the so-called straight people, the heads that were saying what we were going to do about these homosexuals in America, that they're going too far, and that there decided, when they came out, psychiatrists and therapists came out, which shocked the living heck out of them, they decided then and there that it was not an illness, it was not a sickness. [00:50:38] Jimmy Flowers: This, I believe, was back in 1973. I'm not exactly sure on the exact date, but it's about there. So mental illness is not social disease or mental disease or mental order or anything like that, what they thought in the old days. And we're surely not sinners of God, we're children of God as well as anybody else. And also, and then we started protesting the city council people. The first one was 1970, with 30 people. Each year, the crowd grew bigger and bigger. [00:51:21] Julie Trainum: What types of issues did you bring before the council? [00:51:23] Jimmy Flowers: Equal rights in housing, jobs, unemployment, public accommodations, and we tried to put in marriages, lesbian and gay marriages, but that didn't go through. But we got jobs, housing, public accommodations in those orders. [00:51:44] Julie Trainum: How long did that take? That took from 1970 to 1986. [00:51:46] Jimmy Flowers: And that's in New York City? [00:51:53] Julie Trainum: That's in New York City. [00:51:55] Jimmy Flowers: And each year, the protests marched because we kept on insisting. So every six months, we were at City Hall protesting, and each time, the crowd grew larger and larger and larger. In 1986, we started registering, around 1980, we started registering lesbians and gays. We went to the bars, we went to the bathhouses, we went to the backroom bars, we went to the piers, we went wherever lesbians and gays went, we went there. 11 �[00:52:27] Julie Trainum: Registering at the bar? [00:52:29] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. And I, myself, registered over 10,000 lesbians and gays through the bars, through the backrooms, through the lesbian bars. And by the way, I was the first gay male to enter a lesbian and gay bar. Because at that time, lesbians wanted to keep to themselves because a lot of straight guys used to come in and harass them all the time, and it was a lot of trouble. [00:52:57] Jimmy Flowers: So Betty Santora, Eleanor Cooper, they were part of the group, and they said, Look, he's here trying to get signatures and register people to vote, and he's here for your cause as well as for ours. We're supposed to be together and be united. So I was the first male that ever went to a lesbian bar. [00:53:18] Julie Trainum: How'd that feel? [00:53:19] Jimmy Flowers: I felt terrific. You know, most likely, I got along with lesbians better than I did with gay males. I don't know why, but it just happens. There was a joke going around about me, that I was a lesbian trapped in a gay man's body. [00:53:37] Julie Trainum: Did you find that a compliment or not a compliment? [00:53:42] Jimmy Flowers: Well, at the time, I felt both. It was a compliment and it was an insult. But now I think it's a compliment. Then around 19, we started protesting the White House. 1971, we started putting paths. About 100 of us started marching to Washington on foot. [00:54:13] Julie Trainum: You thought you would tell Mr. Nixon a thing or two? [00:54:15] Jimmy Flowers: We thought we would, yeah. [00:54:16] Julie Trainum: How'd that go? [00:54:18] Jimmy Flowers: Well, as we passed each state, the crowd grew larger and larger. When we got to Washington, D.C., finally, it took about almost a week or so. We had rain and everything, and through the sun and everything. And people, as we were walking, with signs and paths on them, the crowd grew to 1,000. [00:54:43] Jimmy Flowers: from 100 from New York and then as we went to Washington they grew to 1,000. But I also got to say, too, there was other protest march back in 1966 by a group of about 25 to 30 lesbians and gay males from Mattachine Society. It wasn't the first march, but it wasn't a national march. The first national march on Washington from the country, the United States, was 1979, then again 1987, and then 1990, a few years later. [00:55:29] Julie Trainum: Early 90s. [00:55:30] Jimmy Flowers: Early 90s. [00:55:31] Julie Trainum: Sure. [00:55:33] Jimmy Flowers: The first one was sensational. We had the first march on Washington was over 500,000 lesbians and gays. The second one was over 50,000 lesbians and gays. Then they estimate the last one that we had was close to over a million lesbians and gays in Washington, even though the newspaper says 50,000 marched. Some said 40,000. Some of the media said 30,000, but if you saw the march yourself and you saw the crowd, you would know that there was five times more than that. [00:56:17] Julie Trainum: I was there. There was a million, believe me. [00:56:19] Julie Trainum: Have you been seeing more gay young people in the marches and parades? Jimmy, did you want to go ahead and continue with what was happening there in the late 70s and 80s? [00:56:31] Jimmy Flowers: Well, around 1976, Anita Bryant started a campaign against lesbians and gay rights, not only in one state in Florida, which passed an anti-gay lesbian rights bill, but then she started campaigning throughout the country. A lot of lesbians and gays, even movie stars and actors, got upset with her because most of her people that was working with her were gay people. That's number one. Number two, she 12 �was actually slapping people in the face that we wasn't human, we wasn't children of God, and we wasn't Americans and everything like that. [00:57:14] Jimmy Flowers: She was trying to get the religious groups to come out and say we are not. But I must say, and I also was one of the people that threw a fruit pie in her face. I was upset, I was angry, and I am American, a gay one, I'm proud of it. The Constitution of the United States says we the people, not we the blacks, not we the straights, not we the women, not we the lesbians and gays, but we the people. And even politicians forget what the Constitution says. And we have to remember that, that we are the people as well. [00:58:00] Jimmy Flowers: And we are just as human beings as anybody else. Because if you cut my wrist, I will bleed red blood just like anyone else. And I also believe that I was born gay, not made. Also, I would like to say that to black youth of America, that be proud of being gay. Don't be ashamed. Because in the 70s, if you was gay and black, their own race said that they were a disgrace to their race because they were black. But that's not true. Be proud to be gay, be proud to be black, and be proud to be Christian and gay or lesbians. [00:58:45] Jimmy Flowers: We must stand in unity and don't let politicians or religion try to split us up. Like, for instance, at City Hall, and I also heard it here at City Hall in Oklahoma, that, oh well, there's nothing against lesbians in the Bible. But they also forget Joan of Arc was burned to the stake because she was a lesbian. And they also forget about that, that's the Roman Catholics. There's a lot of things that in the Bible you can also prove. [00:59:19] Jimmy Flowers: If you put 20 people in the room, and each one of them read the Bible, you will find you get 20 different opinions of what the Bible says. So therefore, should we put a woman down because she's wearing a red dress? That's in the Bible. You know, they said, thy shall not kill. But yet, the Orthodox Jewish people, back in 1986, asked for the death penalty for being gay. Even the gay community, the Jewish gay community, got upset. And all, at the same time, in City Hall, we all stood up. [01:00:01] Jimmy Flowers: Black gays, Jewish gays, Christian gays, gay atheists, we all stood up and we yelled out, Hai Hitler to them. [01:00:10] Jimmy Flowers: That was the most insulting thing to them. They all got up, all the Orthodox Jewish community walked up and out of City Hall. And we applauded and we yelled out hallelujah, you know. [01:00:25] Julie Trainum: What are some of the things that you see that divide the gay community? [01:00:30] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, the money bed should not divide the community. The poor, middle class, and the rich. We must work together. Young, old, woman, man, black, and white. There must be unity. Because in numbers there is strength. Martin Luther King said one thing, In unity we have strength, divided we will fall. That's what Martin Luther King said. And we have to remember those words. Because so far what I have seen, we are divided now. But we have to start getting together. [01:01:12] Jimmy Flowers: Because sometimes I feel like I'm reliving the 70s and the 80s all over again right here in Oklahoma. I say to the youth of America, stand up, be proud, and don't let people push you down because you're simply a lesbian or gay or bisexual. Be proud of what you are. Because it's not just sex, it's a wave of life, and it's a wave of human sexuality. I believe that if human sexuality is taught at an early age, you will not have all this hang up about sex, about divorce, about women and men, about gay and lesbians and bisexuality. [01:02:00] Jimmy Flowers: I don't feel that there will be so much uptightness if people and children are taught at an early age about human sexuality and let them be themselves as they grow up. But be taught the right way. Some of us, we learned the hard way. And I must say, we may have all different ways of doing things, we may have all different ideas, we may have all different faiths. But when we step outside and protest peacefully, hand in hand, number one, we must be in unity and we must be in numbers. That's 65 people marching. [01:02:50] Jimmy Flowers: Because politicians, when they look out that window, they say, oh it's only 65, because they're thinking of voters. But if they see 200, 300, 5,000, or 10,000, or even 1 million people out there, they're going to wake up and they say, oh, voters, we better shape up or we're going to get shipped out. So therefore, I say, register the vote when you're 18. Put your money where your mouth is and tell it like it is. Go out there and be peaceful. March peaceful. Have kiss-ins, because there's no law against kissing of the same sex. 13 �[01:03:34] Jimmy Flowers: There is no law against people of two women holding hands, or two men holding hands. So we can easily have kiss-ins, walk hand in hand, surrounding city hall, singing We Shall Overcome. That would get them more anything. They would wake up. That's what we should be doing. And also to educate society that we're here to stay and we're not going away. Lesbians and gays have been here for the longest time. And since the time began, we're going to be here now, until the end of time. [01:04:13] Julie Trainum: Because gay young people, and actually any young person, has a whole lot more to face these days than we did 20 years ago or so, what types of messages would you give kids today when they look at their health and safety? [01:04:29] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, be safe. Use condoms. There's different ways of making love without sexual intercourse. That goes for male or female. There's touching, there's feeling, there's holding, there's caressing. There's more ways of making love without intercourse. And if you do have it, get a checkup. Play safe. Use condoms. Or don't use condoms, but be safe with sass. And have checkups. That's what I would say to the youth of America. [01:05:07] Jimmy Flowers: to play safe and also tell the government there must be a cure of AIDS now. Not tomorrow, not ten years from now, but now. Over 40 or 50 million people throughout the world have AIDS. And every day the numbers are growing and growing. And mostly now the young heterosexual community are getting them. And we have to reach out towards them. But just because you're HIV does not make you less of a woman, just because you're HIV does not make you less of a man, or gay, or straight, or black, or white. Be proud of those issues. Be proud of being black. [01:05:59] Jimmy Flowers: Don't let no one say, well, you're HIV now. Now keep silence, because silence to me equals death. It's time to act up peacefully and out there to march and let the politicians know that we are here and we're not going to take it no more. Did you participate in the AIDS walk this past year? Yes, I did. Can you tell us about that? Well, I carried the sign. I got to admit, the crowd was much bigger in Oklahoma than last year. Last year there was only 65 and I was sort of a little bit upset about it. [01:06:37] Jimmy Flowers: And I got a little emotional and a little angry and I went back to those groups and I told them, shame, shame on you for not being at the walk. This year we had close to 150 or 200 people. What I hear in Oklahoma, that was great. But I like to see next year 1,000 people out there marching. Lesbians and gays. Straight people. Parents of gays. [01:07:05] Jimmy Flowers: And even Christians can get AIDS. Yeah, I just wanted to mention that because sometimes they say they're Christian and there was one guy, I won't mention no names, he was going with a woman every day and then all of a sudden with another woman and I told him, I tried to get him condoms and I gave him brochures and he said, well his minister told him it was a gay disease. And I said, no it is not a gay disease. It's a human disease. And which our own government has lied about it. The blood banks have lied about it. [01:07:45] Jimmy Flowers: The Christians tried to put the blame on the gay, that it was God's punishment to gay people. AIDS is man-made. Two scientists already came out and made a statement that in 1969 they developed AIDS as German warfare. Now this was on television because I watch a lot of talk shows. There's also, they were experiment on green monkeys. And in Africa, their food supplies is green monkeys that they eat because of lack of food. Throughout the country, in Africa alone, 10 million plus has AIDS. Mostly heterosexuals. In this country it hit the gay population. [01:08:37] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, that's true at first. But in other parts of the world, Russia, Japan, China, Switzerland, Germany, East Germany, West Germany, also Africa, all the other countries it hit the heterosexuals. But somehow the gays get the blame for it. Don't ask me why, I don't know why. But it's time now to come out and not to do it violently, but peacefully protest by numbers. I've been asked that question quite a lot. And my answer is, no, I will not do anything differently. [01:09:30] Jimmy Flowers: Because I believe very strongly that I was born gay, not made, and I also believe in God, and I also believe in Jesus. And I believe in a God of love, not a God of hate. I also believe that Jesus preached love in the Ten Commandments, if you looked at it. It does not say, thy shall not be a homosexual. Which in 1976, some of the religious groups wanted to bring Eleventh Commandment on the Ten Commandments. And I was doing the Neal O'Brien situation. Which, by the way, I was one of the people that threw a fruit pie at the Neal O'Brien's face. 14 �[01:10:22] Jimmy Flowers: And she forgave me. [01:10:25] Julie Trainum: How do you know she forgave you? [01:10:27] Jimmy Flowers: Because she said it on television that she forgives me. [01:10:30] Julie Trainum: I'm glad you brought that up again because a lot of the younger people may not remember who Anita O'Brien is. [01:10:35] Jimmy Flowers: Well, Anita O'Brien was the one that was doing the commercials, and she was a singer, and a blogger. [01:10:43] Julie Trainum: But before that, wasn't she like a Miss America or some type like that? [01:10:47] Jimmy Flowers: She came in second place. [01:10:49] Julie Trainum: Okay, well it makes her like this all-American type, and people are going to maybe listen to her. And so then she went into entertainment. [01:10:56] Jimmy Flowers: Well, I can say this. We're all Americans here. No matter what color, what background, if you're a woman, if you're a man, young, old, black and white, of race. We're all Americans here. But if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, the only Americans here that's true Americans is the American Indians. I mean, let's face it. You know, white men brought the diseases over from Europe. [01:11:26] Jimmy Flowers: If these diseases, if they would think, if you think about this, number one, if the government could spend $2.3 billion on one bomb that would destroy countries and life, human life, from all walks of life. Why can't they spend, and we've got enough weapons and bombs and airplanes to destroy this world 20 times over, if not more. It is now time to put an end to all diseases and put the money together and have all the scientists throughout the world in this country. And I'm not just talking about AIDS. I'm talking about diabetes. [01:12:11] Jimmy Flowers: I'm talking about heart trouble or cancer and liver problems. If they will find and put their money to save human life instead of destroying human life, I'll bet you, ten to one, we will be much happier. Because in the Constitution of the United States too, it says, life, liberty, and presumed happiness. And so far, I really haven't seen much of that. And I'm sure a lot of others haven't either. [01:12:43] Julie Trainum: But... [01:12:43] Julie Trainum: Okay, let me stop there for a second. [01:12:45] Julie Trainum: Stand by, stand by. We're looking at some of the things that Jimmy brought with him. Just kind of show real quick a few of these items. And let's go back over here to the purple outfit. Tell us what this is and when you wore it. [01:13:04] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. This was part of my go-go outfit. I was a go-go boy. [01:13:09] Julie Trainum: What is that again? You're a dancer. [01:13:09] Julie Trainum: And I also was a go-go boy at [01:13:11] Jimmy Flowers: the Gay Activist Alliance of New York City in the firehouse of GAA and at the Stonewall and at the Church of the Beloved Disciples, which was the first gay church in 1970 to raise money for the Church of the Beloved Disciples. [01:13:41] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:13:42] Jimmy Flowers: And also, at that time, they called them hot pants. And that was part... I had black boots and a black cowboy hat and with the saccadone lights. That was part of my outfit. [01:13:55] Julie Trainum: Okay, great. And let's go back over here to this T-shirt here. This is really neat. 15 �[01:14:02] Jimmy Flowers: Well, I was the marshal of the... In 1983, one of the marshals, which is one of the grand marshals of the... You were chosen to be one of the persons that was involved in Stonewall and they called you a grand marshal. [01:14:28] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:29] Jimmy Flowers: And this is the T-shirt from the 25th anniversary of Stonewall, which Stonewall would include all lesbians and gays from all over the world. [01:14:40] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:40] Jimmy Flowers: And marched on the United Nations building to show that we want lesbian and gay rights throughout the world. [01:14:49] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:50] Julie Trainum: And was this the Marshall T-shirt you were studying? [01:14:54] Julie Trainum: Yeah. [01:14:54] Jimmy Flowers: Which was 1983. [01:14:57] Julie Trainum: That's great. Okay. [01:15:01] Julie Trainum: And this banner? [01:15:02] Jimmy Flowers: That's the Stonewall banner which was given to me by Ed Murphy in late 70s. We all got one. As you see it's turning pink, but it was purple and gold. Lavender and purple and white is the lesbian and gay colors. [01:15:21] Julie Trainum: Okay. Great. Let's move over here and take a look at some of these buttons you have here. [01:15:28] Jimmy Flowers: Well, this shows you here in New York City in 1988. This was in the 80s. The gay 90s are coming. This here is the P flag. [01:15:42] Jimmy Flowers: This was the symbol for gay black of Africans, America, Americans. [01:15:50] Jimmy Flowers: This was the button on March of 87 to the White House. And this button here was printed in 1971, gay love, it's the real thing. This here was printed in 1970, I'm a man's man. This here is lesbian gay vote 89. And this was the first march in 1979 on Washington, National March. This is a button that says I support lesbian gay rights. This button here is the quilt, the names of the project. And this here says fight for lesbian gay rights, liberation. And you see the fist in the air means power to the people. [01:16:43] Julie Trainum: You told me one time how many buttons you actually collected when you had all of them. Do you remember how many? [01:16:48] Jimmy Flowers: Oh, I remember how many. Yes, definitely. Before I left New York in 89, I donated over 2,000 lesbian gay buttons to the Lesbian Gay Community Center. I also donated over 1,500 lesbian gay books that was printed from the 50s and 60s to the Lesbian Gay Community Center and the original lesbian gay flag. [01:17:14] Julie Trainum: What I'd like to do is just to get you to summarize, if you would, some of the ideas that you have about what you'd like to see happen in Tulsa. [01:17:25] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, I'd like to see Oklahoma wake up and smell the flowers. And also to see more unity instead of more divided. The hungry power should stop the dividing of lesbians and gays and young gays and older gays and black gays and lesbian black gays. What I am seeing now is what I feel like sometimes I'm reliving the 70s and the 80s all over again. What I'd like to see is more unity among all of us. The young, the old, the black, the white, and even some of the straight people in the community to get involved. 16 �[01:18:14] Jimmy Flowers: And also get the politicians to wake up and realize that we are here, we're not going away, we're going to be out there marching. But I insist, let's march peacefully, no violence. We must do it in unity. Once we step outside of the door, we must show numbers, unity, and strength. And let the politicians and the media and the Christians know that we mean business. That we are Americans and we're human beings and we are children of God. And we're just like anybody else. [01:19:04] Jimmy Flowers: We come from poor to black to rich, middle class, upper class, or lower class, and even homeless people. There are homeless people out there who has HIV and AIDS and they're not hardly getting no help at all. There's people from all over here that we have to educate the politicians that it's not a gay disease. It's a human disease and we must put a stop to it now. I say to the gay youth, come out, be proud, and be careful, and play safe. Show affection, be yourselves, and start marching. [01:19:54] Julie Trainum: Thanks, Jim. 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data VHS Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour 20 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [c. 2000] The Jimmy Flowers Story Subject The topic of the resource Jimmy Flowers Interview for Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity Description An account of the resource From Julie Tucker - Trainum, August 2019 - Jimmy Flowers was one of the very first members of the AIDS Coalition in Tulsa. He was a young man when he was part of Stonewall and in his interview he talks about Stonewall. Jimmy died in the mid 2000s. He was interviewed so we could share his story at the YST support group "Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimmy Flowers, Julie Tucker-Trainum, Youth Services of Tulsa, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Interview was conducted in 1999 or 2000 1999 2000 AIDS AIDS Coalition of Tulsa HIV interview Jimmy Flowers Julie Tucker-Trainum OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Stonewall transcript Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity video Youth Services of Tulsa YST https://history.okeq.org/files/original/2ba0854d31555f052589ee6f8f30d589.pdf c075226804ee57c66ba45d915a484f5e PDF Text Text OKLAHOMANS FOR EQUALITY OkEq History Project – Oral History Series Interview of Bill Francisco conducted by Toby Jenkins on September 13, 2011 Bill Francisco – Born September 5th, 1933, Passed December 25, 2024 Jenkins I'm Toby Jenkins, Executive Director of Oklahomans for Equality, and here we are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on September 13, 2011, for our Vintage Series, where we capture the stories of those who lived our history and made history. They came out, and we don't want them to have to go back in and keep their stories silent. So today we've got Bill Francisco, who will be my guest of honor, and we're going to find out about what Tulsa was like in the period of life that he lived here, and he lived in some other places and witnessed some very significant events associated with our community and the struggle for equality. Welcome, Bill. Are you excited to be here? Francisco Oh, absolutely. I understand that you just celebrated a birthday. Yes, I did. Do you really want to know? Yes. I'm 80 years old, September the 5th. September the 5th. Well, happy birthday, Bill. We welcome you today, and you've lived now seven decades on planet Earth. That's right. Any regrets? A few, but we forgot about those. Oh, you forgot about those? 1 �Yes, absolutely. I want to start a little bit today and talk about your early childhood and a little bit about what Tulsa was like in those days, and then we'll move through to some of the most recent things in your life where you've been honored by your own community, and we'll talk. I want to know some dirt on some people, so I'll be asking you some of those questions, and then I want to hear some secrets that maybe nobody else, because inquiring minds, want to know . Uh-oh. I'm in trouble already, aren't I? You were born what year? 1931. 1931, so that would have been in the middle of the Depression. That's right. I was a Depression baby. And you were born in Oklahoma? I was born in Oklahoma on a dirt farm right outside of Catoosa. Okay, born at home? Born at home. All right. Tell us a little bit about your parents. My parents were Portuguese. Portuguese, so that's what Francisco is? Francisco is the last name in the Portuguese. Francisco is a first name in Italian, but in Portuguese, it is the last name. The last name. Yeah, right. And so they were farmers. They were dirt farmers. Dirt farmers. Yes. And now did they raise their produce, and then they bring it to town and sell it? Is that kind of what they did, like drug farmers? Kind of like that. Yes. Now, where did you go to school? 2 �I went to, I guess, five grade schools. Okay. Here in Tulsa. In Tulsa. Yeah, yeah. Eventually, they moved into Tulsa into an apartment. Okay. And we went from apartment to apartment all until I was the sixth grade. Sixth grade. So I've been to practically every elementary school in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Now, what elementary schools did you attend that the buildings would still be standing? Several of those have probably been. Yes. Lincoln School, which is now Lincoln Plaza on there on 15th. In Cherry Street area? 15th and Cherry Street. It's Jason's Deli. I danced in Jason's Deli. And it was an elementary school. And it was an elementary school. All right. My first one was at Roosevelt. No, not Roosevelt. Longfellow. Okay. Longfellow. So it's now demolished. And there's the Native American Health Clinic there in Sixth and Peoria. Sixth and Peoria . That's where Longfellow Junior High School was. All right. So you attended elementary there. Yeah. Did you have some interest? Did you play sports or were you interested in music or dance? I didn't know what I was interested in. But I did become interested in the theater In the theater. 3 �Yes. And what was your first exposure to that? My first exposure was I was elected to play the part of the little boy, the pioneer woman, the little boy from Ponca City, Oklahoma. They was having some statue things for a benefit for the school. Right. And I was about this tall. And they said, oh, you'd be great as the little boy and the pioneer woman. You know? So I was all done up like a little pioneer boy. But it was all statues. And I had to stand still for three minutes without moving. And how old were you? Seven years old. Seven years old. Okay. Can you imagine a seven-year-old kid standing still for that long? What I did was I wanted to do such a good job that I held my breath for three minutes. It's a wonder you didn't pass out. And I almost passed out. You're right. I almost passed out. But I did it. And they thought it was great. They thought it was great. But I got interested then in the theater. In the theater. Because I love applause. Well, I think we all do. You like being the center of attention. It wasn't that. It was just the appreciation of the people who acknowledged it. Hey, he's okay. Now, did you ever do any dancing in those days? Oh, no. No. No. I didn't start dancing until I was in high school. 4 �Okay. I was a musician before that. What instrument did you play? Well, it's a bastard instrument now, but it was the accordion. Okay. And I think we have a picture of you. You're awful dressed up here. Oh, yeah. Now, there you are playing the accordion. Wow. Very distinguished. Looked like you should have been on the Ed Sullivan show. Well, this was taken in Chicago. At Lawrence Welk. That's right. But they were better than I was. But this was a competition at the Palmer House in Chicago, I think it was. The Palmer Hotel, I guess it was. And we went up there, a group of accordionists or accordion players, or whatever they're calling them, and went up there and competed in the national accordion. Now, where did you go to high school? I went to high school at Will Rogers. Will Rogers High School. And I think I have a picture of you. Looks like you might have your letter sweater on. Oh, yeah. I don't even remember this picture. Okay. Somebody sent this to me, and I said, are you sure that's me? Yep, that's you. No, I was a cheerleader. You were a cheerleader for Will Rogers High School? I was a cheerleader for Will Rogers High School. In those days, Will Rogers High School, is it in the present building? Oh, absolutely. Now, that was probably in the days when it was a brand new building, and it was the top design. I was in the 10th graduating class. 10th graduating 5 �class. And they called it Will on the Hill, because it was way out in the country, on the hill out there. All right. They called it Will on the Hill. Now, did you have any part-time jobs while you were in school? Like maybe work for a newspaper or anything? Well, my parents did not appreciate me going into the theater. Okay. So I left home very early. Very early? Very early. Had to support yourself? Had to support myself from whatever. I delivered the Tulsa World in the mornings so that I could go to school, and I delivered the Tulsa World out in the White City District. Okay. About 11th and Yale area? From 3rd to 11th Street, east of Yale. Yeah, the White City neighborhood. White City neighborhood. Yeah, it's not called that anymore. It's called Brayton Park now. Oh, is it really? At those days, it was called White City. Well, it really didn't mean White City. Right. It didn't mean it was named after something else. Yes, it was not. But anyway. Now, did you walk and deliver the newspaper or ride a bicycle? I did a bicycle and I did horseback. All right. Yale Avenue was a two-lane highway back then, and they had drainage ditches on each side of the highway. 6 �You're shaking your head. Do you know that? No. And they had these little wooden bridges to go through to the side streets, you know? And it was way out in the country. So I could ride my horse out there, you know? But the people of White City, there was a brand new, elegant addition. And I would ride my horse through their lawns to put the paper on their porch for them, you know? And when it would rain, I'd go through their lawn and put the paper on their porch, and they complained because I was digging up their lawn. Your horse was digging up their yard. Absolutely. So didn't you get fired from the Tulsa World because of that? No, they told me to stop riding the horse. So you went to Will Rogers High School. Yes. And you got interested in the theater. I got really interested in the theater. And when did you become interested in dancing? Because I understand that you had some interest in that. Yes. Actually, I was a little older. I was probably about 18 or 19 when I started to dance. Okay. I have your graduation picture right here. Graduation picture from Will Rogers High School. That doesn't look like me. You were very handsome. Yeah. That's a good picture, though. So when you were 19, you got interested in? In dancing. 7 �In dancing. Now, I know you rode horses, but what exactly is this picture? It looks like a mule to me. It's a toro. A toro. Okay. So it's a bull. It's a bull. All right. And I'm the back end of the bull. All right. And this is a theater group? This is the Tulsa Opera. And you were in a Tulsa Opera production. I was in a Tulsa Opera. Tulsa Opera first started out with operettas. You know, they weren't big enough yet. And all their first productions were all operettas. Okay. That was from Rio Rita. Okay. This is from the Desert Song with the Tulsa Opera. Then later on, they became legitimate and started to do the real opera. Okay. If this is an opera, did you dance or did you sing? We danced. Oh, yes. We danced. Okay. And I notice you are bare-chested, so they like to show off your bare chest. Well, I don't know. And this would have been in what year? Oh, gosh. Sometime in the 40s or 50s? 8 �Oh, it's got to be in the 50s. 50s? Okay. Yeah. I graduated in 49. It's got to be in the 50s. So about how? You were about 20, 22? Yeah. I was about 20, 22. Okay. And so you were involved with the Tulsa Opera and the Tulsa Ballet. At first. At first. At the Tulsa Opera was first. Then I got a scholarship to go to Los Angeles. And I went to Los Angeles and studied with Ruth St. Dennis Studio, which was a – people don't know her now, but she was one of – I guess – I don't know. I guess she was very famous as a spiritual modern dancer. And I got a scholarship to go – she was 82 years old when I went out there. Wow. Okay. Now, she didn't teach me much movement in dance, but the philosophy behind this woman just changed my whole life. She was really a remarkable woman. So you were out in Los Angeles. I was out in Los Angeles. Near Hollywood. Near Hollywood. And I studied. And I took lessons from Eugene Loring at the Hollywood School of Ballet. And I auditioned for a movie. This is when the musicals were all fabulous musicals, you know. What was it? The 50s, 60s, 50s? And I auditioned for a musical with Gwynne Verdon and Danny Kaye. And it was on the Riviera. But there was 500 dancers auditioned. I got to the final audition, and then I got a notice from Uncle Sam, come back to Tulsa, I was drafted. That brings us to this. That brings us to this. So there you are. Yes, I am. 9 �What branch of the military were you in? I was in the artillery. Army? Army. The Army artillery. That's where I started. That's where they drafted me, you know. Now, boot camp, where was boot camp at? Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. Oh, that's hot down there, wasn't it? Yeah, it was hot. Yeah, it was really hot. Really hot. It was very hot. So you went to Fort Chaffee for? Went to Fort Chaffee for my boot camp. For my boot camp. And then where were your assignments? My assignment was in Germany. I was very fortunate. It was right after the Korean War. It was in the middle of it before Vietnam, in between. And so I didn't have to go to Vietnam or Korea. They sent me to Europe, and I worked with the special services over there in Europe. So I had a good job, you know. I really didn't mind that much. I never carried a gun in my life, but it was pretty nice. Now, I see here that this is a Tulsa World newspaper, and it says GI Dancer, formerly with the Tulsa Opera, wins coveted medal in German Festival. So there's a picture of you bare-chested. They seem to like to show off your chest in those days. And you're bare-chested, and you're in front of a bunch of children. Tell us exactly what you were doing there. And apparently the Tulsa World was pretty proud. Tulsa was apparently pretty proud that... This article was originally done by the German newspaper. And it was all in German. And I couldn't understand a word of it. So I sent it home to my mother and said, could you get this, what do you call it? Translated. Translated, yeah. Get it translated. So she took it to the Tulsa World, and they just said, wow, this is wonderful. And they translated it and put it in the paper. Oh, am I moving? See, I get all... 10 �So you were there in Germany working with these school children. Now, what were you doing exactly? I was teaching them a lot of American dance in Augsburg, Germany. Okay. I was also helping to rehabilitate children from World War II. Okay. So you were part of the restoration. Part of the restoration of World War II. And I was teaching the children, and they honored me with this great honor from the city of Augsburg. Now, here's a picture. I don't know if our cameras can catch that, but it looks like you're dancing with someone with a crown on her head. Yes. That's the Princess of Augsburg. Okay. That I was dancing. And you got an opportunity to dance. Was she a good dancer? No. No, okay. But you made her look good, didn't you? Oh, yes. We just really, really appreciate it. And here you are with some of your military buddies. Yes, this is all my military buddies. Now, that was all there in Germany, correct? Yes, that's all in Germany. All right, so you did that in the military. And when did you get out of the military? 54. 11 �54? Did you come back to Tulsa? Oh, yes. Now, had Tulsa changed much because of the war? I understand there was a lot of building and GI homes were being thrown up. The GI homes were being thrown up. Brookside really became very, very, very big after World War II. With brand new homes and grocery stores and things. Little wooden houses, you know, all along Brookside. What did they call them? The little Cape Cod houses? All was done in Brookside. Now, Tulsa had big movie theaters in those days. And I understand you used to work at some of the big movie palaces. Yes. I was an usher. Of course, I still had to work my way through. Through living, you know, I was an usher at the Orpheum Theater. One of the most ornate, burlesque houses in the Midwest. It was absolutely elegant. Of course, they tore it down and built up a glass building there instead of it. Where was the? About a third in Cheyenne area. Second or third? It was a little bit past that. But anyway, it was a beautiful ornate theater. It was absolutely gorgeous. And I'd like to know where the Oklahoma Historic Society was at that time. Or the Preservationists. Preservationists, allow them to tear that theater down. It was just gorgeous. Now, were you there at that movie theater working there when they had the world premiere of Tulsa? Yes, I was. Yes, I was. And so you met? Yes, I was. What was her name though? Rita Hayworth. 12 �Rita Hayworth, yes. I ushered her down into the theater. They had a big parade down Main Street for the opening of the movie Tulsa. Okay. Big, big deal. Big deal in Tulsa. Thousands of people down there. And they had the premiere in the Orpheum Theater. And I was privileged to usher her down to the front row. Was she beautiful and gracious? Yeah, well. No, not really. She was kind of snooty. She was famous at the time. When they get famous and do things like that, you know these movie stars. Now I see in this picture, was this on a beach here in Tulsa? No. No? That's on Jones Beach in New York. Does anybody know where Jones Beach is? So you ended up in New York. Now how did you end up in New York? Okay. Did dancing take you there? No, no. I joined American Airlines in 1955, I guess it was. And I also worked with the Tulsa Ballet. Tulsa Civic Ballet at that time with Marceline Larkin. And with the Tulsa Opera, who became a legitimate opera house. I did Faust and I did, what was the other one I did? Faust and another opera with them. And that's where I stopped singing. There was this diva from New York, you know, they used to hire all the people to come in to sing the top roles. Well, oh, Aida, it was Aida. Okay. It was painted all in gold and everything. And at that time, they allowed all of the chorus and the dancers, they all had ballet in the operas, a quart of ballet in the operas. Well, they always allowed them to come in and sing at the finale. So they'd have a big crowd there. Well, I came in and I was right behind this metropolitan opera star in the back, just singing like mad. I thought I was doing great. She turned around to me and said, mouth it, buddy. I thought, oh, my God. I was throwing her off key. I have never sung in notes since. All right. 13 �I do some lip syncing now, but I've never done it. All right. So how did you end up in New York? You worked for American Airlines? I worked for American Airlines. They moved the accounting office from 910 South Boston to New York City. When they bought their first computer, IBM would not install a computer except in New York City, because nobody knew how they wanted them, you know. So they moved the entire part of American Airlines up to New York City. That's how I got to New York City. All right. And what did you do in New York City besides work? I understand you studied a little bit. I studied music. Yes, yes. I studied dancing, really. I was at the International School of Dance at Carnegie Hall. I did that of an evening after work, you know. So I didn't have much time to play because I was studying all the time I was there. And that's where I fell in love with clogging. They had a semester there of American folk dancing with square dancing and clogging and all. And I took a semester of clogging up in New York and I said, this is fantastic. I love this. I don't want to do ballet anymore. I don't want to clog because there's so much fun. And, you know, kids from three years old up to 80 years old can clog, you know. It's just wonderful. So I did that. And when I came back to Tulsa, I thought, this is really strange. I grew up in Oklahoma where clogging was all over the world and I didn't even think about it. I had to go to New York City to find out, hey, I love to clog. And I had it all around me all the time I was there. Now you're rushing ahead because I want to ask about some secret things. You were in New York. Did you ever, I understand in those days, lots of Oklahomans fled Oklahoma and they moved to New York for the gay culture, for the gay life subculture that was there in New York. There were clubs and bars, entertainment venues. Did you ever go out and have a drink at some of the nightclubs? Oh, yes, I did. And you met, did you meet anybody special there? I met my one and only partner. I've never had one since. And I was, what, 20, 24, 25. You fell madly in love. 14 �And I fell madly in love. His name was Nick. That was there in New York. And it was in New York City. Now in June... We used to go out dancing on Sunday brunch. They had big dances, tea dances they called them at the time. Sunday brunches, we would go out to the club, to one of our favorite clubs there in New York. And we would dance Sundays from 11 o'clock until 6 at night. He was the disco. He couldn't dance anything else. But he was a great disco dancer. And I had a great time. I really did. Now, and you were there in New York when the Stonewall riots happened. Yes. You were just around the corner, understand? What were you doing that night? Nick and I had gone down to the village to a little restaurant. They had these restaurants which was underneath the brownstones, you know, where they went down underneath it. Below street level. Below street level. They had these little restaurants there. And we went to our favorite restaurant. And we heard all this commotion going on outside, you know. And everybody in the restaurant got up, went out on the street. And we was a block away. We was a block away from Stonewall. But we saw everything that was going on down there. And... It was very frightening. Yes. But that started the gay movement. Now, did you have any friends who were injured or knew any of the people that were arrested? No, I really didn't. I really didn't. I really didn't. After it was almost... We stood out there for, oh, I guess about an hour. And we didn't even know what it was all about at the time, you know. And we walked down to the subway after dinner. And we went home. And the next morning on the paper, the Village Voice, we saw what it was all about. I wasn't in it, but I really, I really saw it. And you said there was quite a pushback from New York over it. And then there was a march a few days later. Yeah. Where they told everybody to come out and march in the streets. Yes, yes. 15 �And did you march in the streets with them in that parade? We had to work. And people were afraid still, weren't they afraid of being out? They were afraid. You had to have somebody with you. Okay. But the police was very cautious at the time. And that was the very first Gay Pride March? The very first Gay Pride March is in Greenwich Village in New York. 1969. 1969 it was. Yeah, and that started the whole gay movement. Look where we've come from. So whenever you, probably when we come around Pride time and you think about our parades, lots of young people today don't even realize we're commemorating an act of war. When they were waging war on us in 1969. And it was the retaliation. We stood up for ourselves. And we're commemorating when we stood up and said you're not going to do this to us anymore. Yep, that's right. So whenever we have Pride parades, do you ever allow your mind to think about that, that maybe some of our young people don't understand what it's really about? Oh, all the time. All the time. The young people today have so much freedom. When I grew up, there was no freedom in the gay community. No, there wasn't even a community. But the kids today have so much freedom to do whatever they want to do, whatever they want to do. And I just keep thinking, God, if I'd have had that when I was young, they have bars they can go to now. There wasn't a gay bar in Tulsa when I grew up here. I wouldn't even think about it. Except the Bamboo Lounge was the first gay bar in Tulsa. So you came back to Tulsa in the early 1970s? Yes, yes. I came back in, I guess about 75, I guess it was. And you had discovered clogging. I had discovered clogging. 16 �And you came back. In fact, did you hunt down the gay community when you got back to Tulsa? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I found freedom at last. You came back and told them about New York, right? Yes, yes. Now, what bars were there in that day in the 1970s? In Tulsa? Well, I can't remember all of them because I didn't go to all of them. My favorite was Tim's Playroom. Tim's Playroom. Oh, good. You could go in there and you could dance disco from nine o'clock at night until two o'clock in the morning without even stopping. And I used to go in there and just dance all night long, all night long. One of the greatest DJs that ever lived was in that bar. Now, you were talking about what young people have today. Yes. Whenever you think about the equality center and it being downtown, what do you think about that in Oklahomans for Equality? Oh, what you have done for equality is really great. I started out, well, coming from New York back down here and seeing all of the things going on, I helped start TOHR. Oklahomans for Human Rights is what it was called. Yes, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. That's what it was. There was about five or six very prominent people in Tulsa, and then there was me, the little guy that didn't have any money or anything. But I went in with them and I said, come on, let's do it. You knew Dennis Neill on that day? Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I knew Dennis Neill. I'll tell you something about Dennis Neill. He used to live right around the corner from me on 31st and Woodard Boulevard. This was a long time ago. And after work, he would jog, I guess it was called jogging then, he would jog after work down 31st Street down to River Park and back to home. I'd be out working in the yard. He'd always wave at me, you know, as he goes by. Hi, Bill. Hi, Dennis. And great guy. And I saw his first turnabout performance. Oh, he's done drag? I don't think any of us knew that. 17 �There was a big benefit out at this restaurant on 71st Street. It's no longer out there, no longer a restaurant. But they had a big turnabout benefit out there. And Dennis Neill was in drag. So you all formed this organization 31 years ago. Yeah. And so it's an entirely different world, isn't it, than it was 31 years ago? Oh, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Now, when did you start clogging with, put together your clogging group? My first clogging group was 1986. I formed it because of the Oklahoma OGRA, which is the Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association. We didn't have one in Tulsa. So I formed a group called the Green Country Cloggers. The Green Country Cloggers. And it was a great group. It was a wonderful group. And we performed all over the Midwest. We went from all the gay rodeos, from Denver, Phoenix, California, Kansas, Oklahoma. They didn't have one in Arkansas at the time. But I mean, every one of them. Texas, Texas was the big one. The big gay rodeo in Texas. And we became pretty famous, didn't we? Yes. Now, that was 1986. That was 1986. That would have been right in the middle of the epidemic. So we were having people, AIDS was in full swing and people were dying. And there were probably people here in Tulsa who had been infected. They were. They were. What are your thoughts about how the community reacted to that? I don't think they reacted. I really don't. They should have had more, but there was not enough information to say, Oh, hey, we're not affected by this. And out of my 12 cloggers, I lost seven. Out of your original things. So then we disbanded and I couldn't handle it anymore. And later on, when Tulsa got its own rodeo, SSRA rodeo, I started the SSRA clogging team, Sooner State Cloggers. Now here's a picture of your cloggers dressed up as the village people. That was the original Green Country cloggers. 18 �All right. And here you are. Are you the muscle guy or the police officer? I'm Felipe, the Indian. So you were the Indian. Well, that's a great picture. I love that. This guy right here, he runs the Eagle in Dallas, Texas. He owns the Eagle in Dallas, Texas. This guy here was one of the original owners of the toolbox. And this guy right here, beautiful man. Well, they're all very handsome. All very handsome. Yeah. Good group. Now you did clogging and somewhere in there, somebody decided that you looked a little bit like Santa Claus. And you started doing... Yes. I was doing, I was teaching clogging out in Glenpool at the Glenpool Community Center, which Glenpool was nothing then, I don't think. But we did a couple of shows out at Black Gold Days. I guess it was. Every year they had the Black Gold Days out at Glenpool. And I was working with the kids out there. And one of the organizers said, Bill, would you play Santa Claus for us? And I said, well, sure. I never get a chance to entertain, you know. I'm such a ham anyway. But I said, sure, I will. So they gave me this old Santa Claus, a moth-eaten Santa Claus suit and a phony beard. And I went out there and I clogged for their Christmas show. Well, the kids just went crazy. They thought it was the funniest thing to see Santa Claus clogging. And I said, well, you know, I continue to do it from then on because I made the kids so happy with that. And that's how it all started. We're looking at a magazine article from 1998 in The Oklahoman. And it's a feature article on you, The Dancing Santa. And it tells about his opera days and what he did in the restoration of Europe and his work with German children. But it also talks about how he just lights up the day and makes these kids' parties so exciting with Santa who dances. Well, you've had quite a remarkable life. I'm looking right here. You've been given seven awards. This is a lifetime achievement award that you received last year. Clogger Bill, with huge thanks from the Tulsa gay community, 2009. You are our hero. That was in 2009. And you've continued to do a lot of benefit work for lots of different nonprofits. And lots of organizations that serve people living with HIV AIDS. 19 �Absolutely. The other night... I'm a server. You are. I try to do everything to serve. I don't want anything for myself. Well, almost. You won't turn it down, is what you're saying. That's where we go. You know, the other night... I'm very humble. I just don't want anything, except I do love applause. Well, I think we all like attention. The other night, the Tulsa Eagle threw a birthday party for you, celebrating your 80th birthday. Unbelievable. And the place was packed. And such good fun. I want you to know, I was looking forward to that and I was excited being able to attend. And then I want our audience to know that a few days before that, you called me and you said, Toby, I want to do something to remember the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people who died on 9-11. Nobody's ever thought about them. So you wanted to inflate helium balloons in pastel colors. We spent all afternoon blowing up the balloons. And you said, Toby, I want us to launch the balloons a little after seven. So that was what I was so touched by because I'd been watching on 9-11 Sunday. I'd been watching all the coverage of the dedication of the 9-11 memorial and how that affected Oklahomans. And then I attended the event at the BOK Center that OCCJ sponsored. And then to be able to go to your party where our community gathered and we wanted to make sure that our people had not been forgotten, been recognized. And we set those balloons off at 7-15. We read the names of all of the hundreds of gay people who died on 9-11. And we set those balloons off. And it was the strangest thing, there was a set of jets doing a maneuver up in the sky. And right when we set those balloons off, the balloons took off and those jets crossed right in the middle of the sky. And there was this huge cross in the sky as we set those balloons off. Now, Bill, I checked. To my knowledge, there was not another memorial tribute to the gay victims of 9-11 than the one in Tulsa, Oklahoma that Bill Francisco wanted to do. It was his day, but you still wanted to think of others. Now, because of that, that night they surprised you. And I think probably this sums up your life. It takes a moment to change history. It takes love to change lives. The Imperial Court of all Oklahoma hereby proclaims the Youth Scholarship to be forever named in the honor of Clogger Bill Francisco Youth Scholarship Fund, September 11, 2011. That night they surprised you by naming a youth scholarship in your honor. How do you feel about that? Oh, my God. First, I wish they wouldn't do it until after the show. Because I was so emotional, I couldn't hardly dance. It's a big honor 20 �. It's a very big honor. Now, what do you think when young people, young gay and lesbian people who are applying for scholarships to be able to go to college and further their education, when they hear about this scholarship opportunity and they read the story about who it's named after, what do you want to be able to tell them? I want them to follow their dreams. Go for it. Well, thank you very much. You've been with us today while we've interviewed here on Vintage, Bill Francisco, who I think followed his dreams and he did go for it. And our city is richer because of his contribution. Thank you so much for joining us today. Applause How was that? 21 � https://history.okeq.org/files/original/cae0cab67dbba006859779f324fcbc61.mp4 e71dbd9d5040432cf3641c9dd2b8169e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2011] Bill Francisco Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Toby Jenkin’s September 13th, 2011 Vintage Series Interview. Bill was born on September 5th, 1931, on a dirt farm outside of Catoosa, Oklahoma. He passed on December 25, 2024, in Tulsa. He made his first stage appearance in a school play in Tuls at the age of 7. At that moment, he was attracted to the theatre and applause. From being a high school cheerleader to playing the accordion to forming Green Country Cloggers, Bill was a ham. He served in the Army, spent time in Los Angeles learning dance and ballet and lived and worked in New York City before returning to Tulsa. He witnessed the first Gay Pride Parade in New York City in 1969 following the Stonewall Riot. He was locally famous as the “Dancing Santa,” exciting children throughout the Tulsa area. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bill Francisco, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Subject The topic of the resource Bill Francisco Vintage Series Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 13, 2011 Bill Francisco Green Country Clogger Green Country Cloggers interview OKEQ Oral History Project oral history Oral History Project Toby Jenkins video Vintage Vintage Series Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2020] Donald Fruechting Interview Subject The topic of the resource Donald Fruechting Oral History Project Interview from November 20, 2020 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Morgan Allen on November 20, 2020. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Donald discusses his early life, family background, military service, personal relationships, and experiences living with HIV. Donald shares insights into his identity as a gay man, the challenges he faced, and the importance of community and family support. He reflects on his journey through love, loss, and spirituality, emphasizing the blessings he has received throughout his life. Donald was born on July 4th, 1938 in rural Owasso, Oklahoma and passed on August 21, 2021 in Tulsa. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donald Fruechting, Morgan Allen, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 20, 2020 2020 AIDS/HIV available at Center Donald Fruechting HIV HIV/AIDs interview Morgan Allen OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/18ab089ee94d63ffd9e7d04ee1d65c33.mp4 7d9e214b99d8ee9a56603bf83ef4c16e https://history.okeq.org/files/original/bd38c834e284b300aec3bb350b6559a0.pdf c65882cf093a1122f482853b3eeea6c7 PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Janet Gearin Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte February 22, 2004 OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Edmon Low Library ● Oklahoma State University ©2004 �OKEQ Oral History Project Interview History Interviewer: Laura Belmonte Transcriber: Janet Gearin Editors: Anika Benthem The recording and transcript of this interview were processed at the Oklahoma State University Library in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Project Detail The OKEQ Oral History Project is a series of interviews documenting the rich contributions of LGBTQ community members in the state of Oklahoma, with a particular emphasis on Tulsa and the surrounding area. These interviews were conducted by members of Oklahomans for Equality, formerly Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Legal Status Scholarly use of the recordings and transcripts of the interview with Janet Gearin is unrestricted. The interview agreement was signed on February 22, 2004. 2 �OKEQ Oral History Project Janet Gearin Oral History Interview [Editor note – Janet provided an update in March 2026 which is at the end of this transcript in an Addendum.] Interviewed by Laura Belmonte February 22, 2004 Tulsa, Oklahoma Belmonte It is Sunday, February 22, 2004, and I am Laura Belmonte with Jennifer Davis, and today we are interviewing Janet Gearin. Janet, will you just begin with some basic, biographical information? Gearin You want my age and all of that? (Laughs) Belmonte Your birthday, occupation, you know, that sort of stuff. Gearin Now, I just turned February 3. I was born in 1947, so I’m fifty-seven years old. I’m from Oklahoma, born in Vinita. Didn’t live there very long. Folks lived mostly in Duncan, and I actually finished high school in Lindsay, Oklahoma, which is south of Oklahoma City. When I finished high school, I decided that I wanted to go to college, did so, and went to the University of—Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts, I should say. It had changed—it was OCW, which was Oklahoma College for Women, but the year before I went, they actually changed it to a co-ed school, so that was really quite an experience to be there at a university that had been a women’s college for fifty-some-odd years. I had a really good time there. I was a biology major, minored in chemistry, and I was pre-med at that time. When it got time for me to go and interview at the University of Oklahoma for med school, I was declined admission, primarily because I was a woman, but at that time, I didn’t really want to take issue with it. I kind of started to get cold feet anyway, so I—after I finished my degree there, I went ahead and worked for a year at Saint Francis. I worked in labor and delivery and decided that that was my life. I really like labor and delivery and thought seriously that I would be like a midwife. I stayed there for a little over a year. I applied to nursing school and was accepted into the University of Colorado and was there for three years getting a bachelor’s of science and nursing. However, along the way, while I 3 �was in that process of three years, I realized that there was very little work and employment for midwives. Unless you lived in Kentucky or parts of Tennessee, you really couldn’t practice that. I made a course change as I was in nursing school and decided that I really psychiatry. From that point on, I became invested in pursuing a career in psychiatric nursing. While there, I was talked to by my professor, and she suggested that I consider going to get my master’s degree and becoming what they were calling a clinical specialist. It was a brand new role, been out for a couple of years. I looked at the various universities across the country, and basically, there were ten that offered that degree: places like Rutgers, Boston University, Case Western University, University of Colorado, University of California, San Francisco, University of Washington—really great places. Had no way of being able to travel and seeing where I wanted to go, so just kind of talking with various professors and ruling out places because they only accepted men, which was really (Laughs)—I had no idea that I would get accepted to all of them, and I felt that surely if I found one that would take me, that would answer that question. I ended up getting accepted to all ten universities, and then I had to make a choice. I decided that I wanted to go west and went to the University of California, San Francisco and lived there for two years while I worked on my master’s degree. Then decided at that point in time that I really needed to come home. My parents were aging; I had a grandmother that was in her eighties, and I felt like I really needed to come back to Oklahoma. I’d always said that if I got my degree, I would come back to Oklahoma and try and help upgrade nursing here because it was really quite antiquated compared to how progressive it was on each coast. Did come back. The only way I could come back was by working with the Department of Veterans Affairs because no one else was going to pay me the salary that I felt like I at least needed and wanted, so I did come back, work with the VA in Muskogee. Started there March of ’75, and I’ve been with the VA ever since then. Opened a brand new mental health clinic in Muskogee. I was the first person they hired for that clinic, and then, when we moved up to Tulsa in ’79, I opened the clinic there, helped get that set up. Then three years ago, we relocated here in Tulsa to 41st and Mingo and opened that one. Actually have now been in three different mental health clinics, but all with the VA. I now have twenty-nine years of experience there and work with veterans within mental health, and love my work. I truly do. I have still great energy and a gift for my work and love it, dearly love it. That’s kind of where I’ve been. The other parts of my life, in terms of more personal, is I’m the youngest of six children, and it was yours, mine, and our—I’m the “our” child. I have, surviving, I have two older brothers and one older sister; the other two are deceased. There’s a difference of twenty-one years between me and my 4 �oldest sister, and the next youngest is eleven years older than I am. For the most part, I was really kind of an alone child who grew up pretty much kind of on my own, latchkey kid. My father was a grocery man and did that until he retired because of health reasons. Parents are both deceased. When I was in college in Chickasha, realized that I probably was not quite like everybody else in terms of my sexual orientation, and that’s really kind of when I began to explore some of that. Belmonte Now, have you classified yourself as homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual for most of your adult life? Gearin Homosexual. My family has pretty much known about that for the last thirty years. Didn’t really while I was out and away and going to school. It really was never talked about, you know, any of that. My one, big, huge regret is that my mother died before we really had a chance to talk about that because I was really very young. I was just into my thirties when she died and was in a very early relationship, my first real relationship, and just didn’t really get a chance to talk about that, and I regret that. I really wish that I had. I’ve had talks with brothers and sisters and my father, had a good talk with him about it. You know, that’s kind of how that got involved. When I started work here in Tulsa, I never really belonged to any kind of organization. I know that part of your interest, I guess, still is TOHR [Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights], but— Belmonte Not specifically, the whole community. Gearin Okay. When I moved here, I was in a relationship, and it was another nurse that was with the VA, and she had to medically retire because she was injured on the job. Altogether, we were in a twenty-five year relationship. I have a long history here in Tulsa. I’ve met lots of—I don’t even know how many hundreds of people I’ve met over the years. I feel that I’ve had a very rich life, and it’s been very different from my professional life, though, because I’m not exactly out, as you would say, in terms of my work, but I know that those folks have known me all these years. A majority of them do know, and I do have a couple of really good friends at work that do know. When I was—my relationship ended a few years ago, it was very difficult for me, and I confided in the psychiatrist that I work with here. She already knew pretty much anyway, so without her help and my other friends’ help, I really would have had a difficult time. Belmonte How old were you when you had your first homosexual experience? Gearin Let’s see, I think I was fifteen, if I remember…I believe I was fifteen! And it was in the back of a car! (Laughter) That’s not even the best part. The best part is that it was moving; it was being driven by the girl’s mother. We were 5 �on our way to California. I was just about to panic; I’ll never forget that. That was probably the most priceless experience I had in my life. Belmonte Had you suspected there was something different? When do you recall thinking that for the first time? Gearin Actually, it was because of her. When I was in high school—this will really—well, I’ve already told you how old I am. I was in band. I was a very active band student, a very good musician. Belmonte What years did you go to high school? Gearin This would have been, let’s see, I was in ninth grade, so this would have been freshman in high school. It would’ve ben ’61? There were a group of us girls that we’d hang out. The other girls were a year older than I, and so they would have been sophomores in high school. It was so funny. We really were close; we were really tight knit. All of the sudden I realized—I went to class one day, went to band; band was first thing in the morning, and it was like, “Okay, we’re not talking to Vivienne.” “We’re not? Why?” “She’s queer.” I thought, well—my definition was queer was “odd.” I had no other definition for queer. I’m thinking, “Well, what’s that got to do with not talking to her?” Had not sexualized this at all. Had not a clue. I was just so naïve. We go then to another class, and I’m sitting there, and I’m talking to one of the students before the class starts, and I said, “I don’t really understand what the heck you’re talking about. What’s so strange about Vivienne?” She said, “Janet, that’s not queer. Don’t you know what queer is?” I said, “Yes. It’s strange, odd.” I’m trying to remember what else it was in terms of Webster’s Dictionary. She said, “Janet, no. She’s a lesbian; she’s gay.” Or homosexual, I’m sorry, I don’t even think gay was being used then. I said, “Oh.” I still wasn’t even sure, and I thought, “Huh, how do you know that?” That was my question, was “How do you know that?” Belmonte What did she say? Gearin She said, “Well, one of the girls, Martha told us.” “Well, how does Martha know?” It was like—I was no big deal, so what’s the difference? As it was, the ostracization that she suffered, it was just terrible. I’ve never been able to understand how people discriminate. To me, you care for somebody because of who they are, the person that they are. This was a girl that we had all been friends for many years. We had grown up together, we were in band together, we ran around together, we did things together. Now, they’re saying that because she was queer and she was a homosexual, that now we could no longer have a relationship with her. I probably endured that for, I’d say, maybe a month. I just couldn’t do it anymore. It was like, I would 6 �watch her. She would walk by herself to class. Nobody walked with her, nobody talked with her. Boys made fun of her. Girls would—I mean, it was just awful, it was just absolutely awful. I literally could not tolerate it, and so I just decided one day, I’m walking with her. I went up and walked with her to class, I don’t care. You know, if they don’t like me, that’s it. If I’m like her, then I guess I’m like her. It was at that point in time that I really became very interested in humanity and how we treat each other for being different and not really understanding why we were treating people that differently and hating her and calling her names. I realized that there’s sometimes that you take a risk. I lost my naivete. I realize that there’s times where you take a risk for disclosure of some of this information. I really found her to be extremely brave. I don’t know how she did it because there was a lot of abuse that she endured. I never saw her cry, I never saw her break down, I never saw her complain. It was a really troubling time, but yet it was also a really good time. I became her friend. We had been friends, but it was like I just wasn’t going to let my relationship with her go because other people wouldn’t associate with her. Slowly but surely, and I don’t know that I ever got much in terms of repercussions because after all this time, I don’t really remember anybody saying anything negative to me or distancing themselves the way they did, but it was kind of like people followed suit as I started talking to her again and interacting with her again, other people, I guess, decided that it was okay. I think that maybe many of them felt badly because this was a small town, a small school. There were like sixty of us in my class and maybe about that many in the class ahead of me, so we’re really talking about a pretty small school. A lot of that started to stop and I don’t remember people calling her names or anything else like that after that. It was—but this was the young girl that—she kind of became infatuated with me, and I guess I could understand that, and I did become infatuated with her; she was really my first love. I had no idea until we were in the backseat of that car going to California, and she kissed me. It was like, “Oh.” (Laughs) “I don’t think we should be doing this,” because it was not just a kiss on the cheek, it was like—oh my word. Then I didn’t know what to do because I knew I shouldn’t say anything because her mother was driving. I’m all the sudden thinking, “Oh my god, is she able to see in the rearview mirror?” You know, all these are going through your mind. It’s like, “Stop it, stop it. Don’t do that to me. Stop it. Help. No, no, don’t do this.” Then I was like, “Oh no, you know, this is just not supposed to be happening.” It was really pretty traumatic for me, but at the same time, I think I really was kind of intrigued by it as well. That was the first time. Belmonte Did you wind up having a relationship with Vivienne? 7 �Gearin To some degree, yes. You’re in high school and you’re doing different things, and she was a year older, so this was the summer before her junior year and my sophomore year. We really only had two more years together. We really were good companions. She was a latchkey kid; I was a latchkey kid. We lived close in terms of proximity, and it was kind of a—it was really just a very good friendship. It never really did progress the way it probably would have if I had really known what was going on and understood things. I didn’t push for that much, and she didn’t either. When she went to college—she went to a small college, went to the Oklahoma College for Women—I followed her. I basically did follow her. Since the last—I didn’t want to go to a big university. I knew that I really was not prepared to go to a big university; I had always thought I would go to the University of Oklahoma. I had been—had music scholarships and everything, but just couldn’t quite cut that, so I made the choice to go to a small school, which was just about thirty-five miles from where I lived. They had changed that over that year, and it still was predominantly women, you know, young girls, young women that were at the university there, and it was just a fun—I had a marvelous time for those four years there, just had a marvelous time. Belmonte You know, many women’s colleges have had very active lesbian networks, social lives, you know, even through the twentieth century and late nineteenth century. How would you describe the climate of your school on that? Gearin It was extremely closeted, let me tell you. I didn’t really appreciate the dangers involved. Vivienne, my friend, was really—I think she was always kind of cut out to be the one that was going to be taking that step and be on the edge. She wanted the freedom; she wanted to be who she was and to do what she wanted to do. She ended up being expelled my freshman year for homosexuality, and it was like—I think it was pretty late into my second semester. Belmonte This would have been around, what, 1966? Gearin This was ’66, no ’65. No, I’m sorry. It was ’66, spring of ’66. It was really awful. It was an awful, awful time for me. I can remember, you know, having—we were in a social club. They didn’t have a sorority on this campus, but they had social clubs for women, and we belonged to the same social club. Several of the members were real upset that she was just flaunting her sexuality and had been caught several times in the dorm by the dorm mother and stuff like this, and was just making no secret of it. It was causing a lot of uncomfortableness. They had tried talking with her and everything else and knew that she and I had been friends and said, “Janet, please talk with her.” I did, and she said, “Hey, I’m in love. I don’t care.” I said, “But you have to care. You know, this is—you know, you’re also looking at your career, your life, you know. They’re saying that you may get 8 �kicked out.” She said, “I don’t believe that.” It’s against the wall, or something like this, I can’t even remember. It’s been so many years ago. At any rate, she did get caught and got turned in. I remember she was coming out of the auditorium from the business offices with her mother and father, and I just absolutely was devastated because she was gone. You know, she was gone. The next thing I knew—it was a couple of days later— I get called into the Dean of Women’s office and that was an even bigger eye-opener because at that point in time, I’m told that I’ve implicated that I’m one of the homosexuals on campus. I’m sitting there, and all of the sudden I realize, this is not when you really want to tell people who you are. I’ve just seen what happened to my very best friend and knew that that was, you know, going to be really difficult for her for a long time. I had seen the look on her parents’ face, and I thought, “I will deny. I will do what I have to do.” I really was just still very naïve, and it wasn’t very difficult for me, as well. I just didn’t say anything; I didn’t volunteer. I said, “Well, that’s really not true.” I really had not been active on campus, but yet, you know, this was what was going to be said. Didn’t know if it was—if I had been implicated or not, it was all very hush-hush. This was a very crucial time, and this woman was really not a very nice woman; she was pretty mean, pretty vindictive. She had already had a…kind of a reputation among the students anyway as being somebody that was very bold, and so I kept my mouth shut. She made some comments, and I can’t remember now what it was that—I went to my friends and I said, “What does this mean?” (Laughs) I think she used the term “active.” I think that was what it was. I had not a clue what she was really talking about. I could remember running over to one of the few women that I really, honestly did know that she was a homosexual or a lesbian, went running over to her room afterwards—she wasn’t even going to let me in the room because everybody then—talk about shutting down doors. I mean, it was just really serious business because I wasn’t the only one that got called into office; several did. As far as I know, nobody else got dismissed, but it was— Belmonte It sounds as if Vivienne was asked to name names. Gearin Oh, and that she did. She did. She named quite a few, which really was kind of bad. I felt worse in terms of her having done that because of the repercussions for all of us. I often wondered if she was angry at me. I’ve often wondered if she was angry at me, and that’s why she did that for some reason. Although, I didn’t know what I had done to anger her. Belmonte It’s possible they told her if she did, they’d let her off. Gearin Might have, yeah. It’s hard to say, not knowing what the conversation was. 9 �Belmonte It’s interesting because a lot of students, I think, have—you know, they think the ’60s, they think wild sexual revolution but don’t really understand that policies like this were still in place all over the country, that these changes were really not made until after the ’60s, in some ways. OSU had very similar policies during the same time. Do you know what happened to Vivienne, ultimately? Gearin Yeah, she left school. She and the woman that she was involved with, they both got expelled from school. She went to California, where she had a brother and a sister living out there, and lived out there for several years and then ended up moving back to Oklahoma. Lived in Norman and worked with the post office. When I actually had finished my master’s degree, that was ’75, I came back in ’75, she was working with the post office in Norman. We actually got to meet up again after all those years, and that— but I never did remember to ask her that question, why she did do that. It was like we didn’t talk about it. I don’t think—I spent a few months with her. Off-and-on, we had a talking relationship for maybe about a year, but we didn’t get to see each other very frequently because I was busy with my status in my career at Muskogee, and she was very busy there and was in a relationship. I never did really find out exactly why she did what she did what she did. We had never talked about it. It was just kind of—we never really talked about it at that point. She was pretty actively involved in the gay community in Oklahoma City, Norman. You know, she was really—I think she may have even been out at work. I’m not so sure that she might not have been. This would have been ’75. Belmonte Sounds like someone who would have just been compelled to do it. Gearin Absolutely. Belmonte After this rather horrible experience in college, did you just go back in the closet to yourself? Gearin Oh, absolutely. Oh, listen. This was—we were about fifty miles from Lawton, and Lawton was a big military town, Army primarily. It was like the Army guys were always up every weekend because this was a women’s college, remember, so it was great for women dating soldiers. I mean, it was a great atmosphere. After that happened, [inaudible] decided, “Okay, I’m going to look real normal on this campus,” (Laughs) because I valued what I was doing there. I really wanted to make sure I got my education. The message was really clear; I mean, we were just—there was no way; everybody on campus knew what had happened. The Dean of Women made it very clear; the president made it very clear that, “Hey, you behave that way and we catch you, you’re gone.” It was like all of us—talk about going into the closet; we were down underneath the ground. We were so buried so 10 �deep. It was—I, at that point, in time decided, “Well, I think I’ll go and explore the other side and see what that’s like.” I really became heterosexual at that particular point in time in my life. It was like, that’s gone. I’m not going to do that again; I buried it. It’s too costly. It’s too much to risk. I don’t want to lose all of these things I wanted. That was kind of the brunt of that, and really it was not bad because I think all of those experiences of dating the military men have helped me in my career with the VA; it’s interesting. Belmonte When did you once again decide this is a part of me that I am not willing to sublimate anymore? Gearin When I was working on my master’s degree—this is kind of a funny story— when I was working on my master’s degree—here I am in San Francisco, which, I mean, the openness of the gay community, even in the ’70s, the early ’70s, was really pretty remarkable. Belmonte Do you recall how you responded to them initially? Gearin Well, I can remember thinking, “Oh, they’re really bold here!” It was like, “Oh my god, are they going to get arrested?” Then I realized that nobody noticed. It was like nobody saw two men walking down the street, holding hands, hugging, kissing; it was like nobody paid any attention. It was a normal part of behavior. My brain started trying to unwind some of all that I had twisted, and it was like, “Okay, if it’s all right to do this, well, now the thoughts come back.” Maybe this is the time where I can start to go back and look at this because I knew that I really was not heterosexual; there was no doubt in my mind. That was not where I wanted to be. I had gone that route just to be normal, and I had engaged myself really, totally in studies. I was a really good student, and I loved school. I really just kind of sublimated all of my sexual energy in just, you know, “Okay, we don’t exist. Let’s just do well in school, study, and have friends.” I did a lot of fun things, traveled a lot, and enjoyed my college—my careers. Remember, this is my third university now. I’m at the University of California, San Francisco, which is actually my third stop. Along the way, I had to take a course with getting a degree in—a master’s in psychiatric nursing. One of the courses that I had to take was human sexuality. In fact, we had several courses that we had to take. I had several clinical hours that I had to do stuff. It was like—I remember the first class, and we were sitting there, talking. There was like twenty of us in the class. The professor came in, and she said, “Okay, these are the things that you will be doing by the end of the term.” We had to [inaudible], we had to— yeah, see the life of prostitutes and all this other sort of stuff. We ended up having to go the sexual history museum there, which was just incredible. I mean, if you’ve never been to San Francisco and been to their museum of 11 �pornography and sexual history, it just—it was incredible. Had to go to a gay bar, had to go to—had to interview people with disabilities that had sexual dysfunctioning because of physical limitations. It was all sorts of things that was included in this course. I became very familiar with SIECUS [Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States]. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with SIECUS, but that was my first introduction, really, to SIECUS and knowing and understanding that that really existed. Belmonte SIECUS is the nation’s, I think, oldest sex education advocacy organization. Gearin Right. They provided all the film work, and all of the films that we saw in the class were actually done by them. It was like, “Well, you’re turned loose on the city, so here you go.” Belmonte Now, this would have been coexistent with the time that it was tremendous tumult in the psychiatric profession about the removal of homosexuality from the— Gearin It was. It happened actually just two years later. I’m trying to remember what year was that... Belmonte ’74. Gearin Was it ’74? Yeah. This was ’72 when I was there. Belmonte Do you recall what you were being taught about homosexuality and whether or not the professors you had were challenging that? Gearin They were not challenging that, and they were really already talking pretty much as if it wasn’t an abomination; it was not a mental disorder. I can remember that several of the professors, several of the psychiatrists that we came in contact with in our clinical rotations, we had homosexual patients, but they did not really—unless their sexuality was an issue with that particular person, it was not an issue. I mean, if they were depressed, and they happened to be gay, that was not—you know, you didn’t treat them being gay. We didn’t try to change them or anything like this. I had seen some of that when I was in the University of Colorado, where there was some real effort to change. You know, they were doing sex changes in San Francisco, by the way, and I got in on doing some interviews with psychologists and joined through some of the progress—some of the process of what they were doing to see if indeed this person was mentally stable for a sex change operation. They had to go through a huge psychological evaluation before the surgeons—you know, they would really do any kind of procedures and things like this. Being involved in how they 12 �were preparing for those interviews and what kind of information they wanted to get and, you know, all this sort of thing. It was really a pretty fascinating time. Belmonte Definitely. When did you decide to come back to Tulsa? Gearin I had really pretty much decided when I went to graduate school, that after I finished, I really wanted to come home. I had been away for a long time. I knew that the education I had gotten, that nurses here were not getting that. I really wanted to be able to bring some of that back and to perhaps do some changing in education for nursing here in Oklahoma, and the only way you’re going to do that is you have to bring what you learned back. So I did do that. When I interviewed for the job position in Muskogee, I had to, first of all, be approved by the University of Oklahoma. In fact, it was a clinical appointment. Muskogee and the VA would not have been able to have hired me had not the University of Oklahoma approved my. Now, mind you, the irony in all of this is that the University of Oklahoma denied me admission to medical school, but now I’m good enough to teach their students and their residents. I thought that was really kind of a neat irony in my lifetime, that I had come back around, and, you know, that bus does keep coming back around. When I interviewed at the University of Oklahoma and talked with them, they asked me to do a colloquium because they had no idea that nursing education was as broad as [inaudible] and that I could do and that I had the ability to do what I did, which was primarily to be a psychotherapist. I had a huge background in medicine, as well. I had several classes in psychopharmacology, and they were just asking me questions. “Well, what about this drug? What about that drug? What about this diagnosis?” They could not believe the level of the education that I had, so I was the first clinical specialist to come to the state of Oklahoma and practice. I was the first to be asked to do a colloquium for the University of Oklahoma. Went down to Oklahoma City and, you know, did a presentation with—I think it was—it seemed like, to me, it was two hundred of them at that audience because I was a little overwhelmed that everyone there was a physician, but they were all fascinated and wanted to know how I knew what I knew and what kind of education I had gotten. It was really a very rewarding experience to go back and talk with the doctors, and, you know, they really treated me as a peer, which was a real special feeling for me. Belmonte How did you find out about gay life in Tulsa? Gearin It’s kind of interesting. When I got to Muskogee…you’ll laugh at this. This will tell you how I really met my lover of twenty-five years. I was working at the VA, and I had just gotten there from California. This—when I was when I was a nurse, and she worked on one of the units. She was—they 13 �were actually the first unit to call me for a consult. They had a patient there that was giving them some problems, and they felt like maybe I could come in and see the patient. So I came in, all very serious-minded, and I had to wear lab coats at that time, but I couldn’t wear regular clothes. Now, I was a California girl by this time and grew up just after the flower children. I was in the—lived right on Haight-Ashbury, lived right on Ashbury Street, just up from Haight. It was all a lot of flower children, free thinking, and I had had a wonderful, rich life when I lived in San Francisco. One of the things was mini-skirts were really big then, and I had some wonderful mini-skirts and things like this. I was much slimmer, and I’m tall anyway and was very tan. I guess when I came on to the hospital, I had all the doctors just absolutely coming in, married or not married, and it was like, “Oh no, don’t want to go here, don’t want to do this.” When I first came on that unit, Linda saw me, and she was the one that had actually requested the consult. This is a straight woman; she had already been married three times, I think it was. Belmonte Clearly didn’t take. Gearin Cleary. (Laughter) Clearly didn’t take. At any rate she—after I finished the consult, she says, “Why don’t you call me sometime?” Well, I’ve never— when you do that, you have to ask me specifically. I’m so naïve, and up in here, I don’t see things. I had no “gay-dar.” Absolutely none, zero, zip. I still don’t have a whole lot of it, but she had good “gay-dar,” which was good for us in our relationship because that’s really how we made friends. She was able to sense and understand, and after we did get together, we started dating and things like this. We met a couple there in Muskogee, and they told us about a bar here in Tulsa. It was over on Memorial, and “Let’s just go up.” I can remember that we, the four of us, came up one Saturday, drove up from Muskogee and walked into that bar, and I thought, “Oh my god, this is wonderful.” Belmonte What was the name of this bar? Gearin Oh my lord, you would ask me. I know I know it just as well, and everybody will know it…The Club. Just The Club: that was it, The Club. Jody and Muriel did—they were a great couple. We became pretty regular customers. (Laughs) You know, every weekend, we’d come up, and, you know, pretty much every weekend, met a group of women and started socializing. Then I had an opportunity to move up here in ’78 because we were going to open a clinic. We knew by that time that we were going to open a clinic here in Tulsa. I had made some really good friends, a couple of guys that we met— they were really—one of them was really quite closeted. He worked at American Airlines, so that was still, you know, early ’70s, late ’70s, early ’80s. He was not inclined to be too out at that particular time, and so we met 14 �these two guys and we just had a great time. Jan was from Amsterdam, and we just had a—we were just kind of soulmates, the four of us. We always had a really good time in doing things, and so the house next door to them came up for sale. Even though I knew we were going to move up here eventually, I didn’t really anticipate that it would be ’78, but it was ’78 when we bought the house and moved in. A year later, the clinic opened. Seventy-nine is when the clinic in the VA opened, so I no longer had to commute, which was much better, because that was a long commute. Once we moved up here, then things really began to grow and stuff. Linda was always a very social person, I mean, and very talented. She was a singer, so she was always out in clubs and things like this. She never met strangers. We very rapidly developed a good, close network of friends, and actually met Dennis Neill through—who’s involved—founder, really, of TOHR, pretty much. Met him and started doing some socializing through the Black and White group. I don’t know if you’ve—have you heard about the Black and White? Belmonte Tell me what you know about it. Gearin Oh, lord. That was a group of guys that decided they wanted to have fun and have a big party every year, so they would have a black and white party. You wore black and white. I mean, the theme was always black and white. You knew what it was, what it was going to be. I’m trying to think—there was quite a few of them at first. I knew several of them, and the first one we went to was down—the first one that Linda and I went to was on—just off of Riverside, at that club—I can’t think of the name of it—but I do believe that was the very first year they had that. That was at like 19th and Riverside, just right up over Riverside. It was the most wonderful time; we just had a ball. It was just all gay people. I mean, it was just absolutely wonderful to think that there’s this many of us, you know. It grew and grew and grew. I mean, every year, it got bigger and bigger. I think—I’m not sure how many years we did that, but it was quite a few years that they did that. It was the big party of the year. Belmonte Was that the first time you recall being at a place with a large number of gay people in Tulsa? Gearin Yes, so it was really fun. It was a lot of fun. Belmonte One of the things that strikes me was being in Tulsa in 2004, is it’s very easy to tap into networks of guys here, but the women’s community is very different. Yet, every once in a while, you’ll stumble into a party or something, and there are two, three hundred people that you probably will never see again. Do you recall similar experiences earlier? 15 �Gearin You know, it was really difficult to meet a lot of women. Most of the women we met were through The Club, which was predominantly a women’s bar. Yeah, you know, it was like—most of the times we went to events, we would be sometimes the only women, or there might be one other couple. Now, at the Black and White, that was not necessarily true, and gradually, more and more women did come. That first year, there weren’t nearly as many women as there were men, but it’s always kind of been that way; it’s an interesting phenomenon, I think, for here. I think today, it still is, to some of that degree. Lots of times, we’ll go to dinner parties and things like this and be the only women, you know. I know that these gay guys have other gay women friends, but it’s—I don’t know, it’s just kind of a strange situation. Belmonte You’ve mentioned The Club. Do you recall any other lesbian establishments? Gearin That was the major—there were several other bars around, but that really was the one that was best known for the women. It was owned by the women and operated by them, so even though the guys would come in there, it was pretty well known that it was primarily the women’s bar. You could go to some of the other gay bars in town, but lots of times, if you went, there may not be any other women there. It was pretty much the men that were in the other bars. Belmonte Now, were you involved in any sort of sports networks? I know that’s always been a good place for gay women to find one another. Gearin Actually not. I didn’t play sports. I really was a very good softball player, basketball player in college, but somehow, didn’t fall into that—how I really started meeting women outside of the bars was through TOHR. I was just earlier talking with a friend, trying to remember exactly when that was. I believe that I first started getting involved with TOHR about ’84, ’83, ’84…’85. How I really got involved with them—I remember doing by-laws; I can remember all sorts of things. They developed the telephone hotline, and John Dratz, who was an attorney here at that particular point in time, was trying to get it going. I had helped Tulsa, the city of Tulsa, develop the hotline here and train, and so he wanted me to work on the hotline for TOHR. That’s—I’m not sure what year that was that we opened that, but I think it was like ’85, maybe, or ’86. I’m not real sure. That was when the helpline really came into play. We even had it at a bar; we had it at Zipper’s. That’s where we were the very first few times that we took calls. (Laughter) I’d go down to the bar and, you know, walk in and go through the bar and go to the back office, you know. It was just amazing, it was just amazing. Belmonte Zipper’s sounds like it was quite the hub of gay life here for a long time. Do you have any memories of Zipper’s? 16 �Gearin Oh yes. It was really a great place. It was for everybody: you know, lots of dancing, lots of good music. It was really a pretty fun place to go. As I said, when I first was going there, I was working. You know, I was going into the back rooms and answering the phone. It was really was a fun place. Lots of folks would be there. We would always just be real decadent and acting out and doing our thing and thinking, “Oh, I wonder if anybody knows what really goes on behind these walls.” By the way, that would have been a good name for a movie, If These Walls Could Talk. You know, we had lots of fun with that. That was kind of interesting times, fun times. Belmonte You began telling us this story about what happened to Vivienne. Do you recall instances of discrimination and harassment of women you knew or men you knew in Tulsa in this period? Gearin You know, kind of by hearsay, never somebody I really knew closely. I can remember hearing stories of somebody that lost their job or was refused housing, you know, this kind of thing. We were—you know, I think in the early ’80s, we were still careful. I mean, you weren’t just real free with— you were careful with what you did. There were a lot of things that we did in homes, lots of parties and things, dinners. I went to a lot of events that were in people’s homes. A lot of that I think was because of safety issues; it was more that we felt like we were—you know, could be safe and not have to worry about walking out to our car and having the police follow you. I can remember tales where some women and guys would have left the club and been stopped by the police and harassed because they knew. The police knew that it was gay bars. They knew, you know, they knew where they were. We weren’t fooling anybody; they know where we were. I never personally was involved in it, and none of my really good friends were ever a part of that, but I did hear about it. I knew a couple of times there were some beatings. Some of the guys got beat up, but they were never people that I really knew. I may have known of them, but I didn’t know them really personally, know them well. I was pretty fortunate in that aspect. Belmonte Tell me about what you remember about AIDS reaching Tulsa? Gearin That was horrible. I had several really good friends that died in the mid ’80s and in the late ‘80s. I started having veterans come in at work, as well, and it was probably the worst time of my life: to have people that you know and love and you care about, and to watch them just very rapidly deteriorate and die. They didn’t live; they died. It changed my whole approach to life because I realized how precious it truly is. We don’t, any of us, have the luxury of knowing, but those guys had the misfortune of knowing that they weren’t going to live very long once they received their diagnosis. Most of them had been positive, probably, for quite some time, but we didn’t really 17 �know and understand the diseases nearly as well as we do now. Those times were really difficult, and I felt compelled to do something to help, not just professionally but also within the community because we were losing a lot of gay men. How follies was born, and I was a part of that. TOHR had been real active with that. This was 1988. I’ll never forget this. How I know this is I’m an OU fan; I love basketball. The University of Oklahoma was in the final four in 1988. They played the University of Kansas, in fact, in the championship game and lost. We were at follies, which TOHR produced as a fundraiser every year, and my lover and Ellis Wagoner, who at that time worked with the Tulsa Tribune—there were two papers at that time—he was the entertainment editor, and he was gay, and his lover was there. We were there—the four of us were there, and Linda and Ellis get off on this tangent, and they’re talking about, “You know what? We could put on a musical variety show and raise a hell of a lot of money,” because there were like, maybe a couple of hundred there. “We could really do this big; we could really do this.” We know all of the musicians; we knew—they knew talent. They started plotting all of this out. That was actually the birth of follies review, which for ten years did a musical variety show annually, and all the money that we made from that, outside of our expenses, we turned over to the community to agencies such as Tulsa Cares, RAIN, you know, anybody that was taking care of—St. Joseph’s. We gave money to anybody that was providing any kind of health care or any kind of benefits to people with AIDS. That was the birth of that, and that was through—and TOHR actually sponsored us our first two years. We did the first musical variety show in 1989 downtown at the PAC, the Performing Arts Center. We had the small stage—one of the small stages, John Williams, and we ran these people across and did music—it was a musical variety show. Had it for three nights, and that was 1989. Did it again in ’90 with TOHR, and then decided in ’93 we’d incorporate it and just decided to do it all on our own. The next eight years, we just did it all as our own…our own source, our own wings, [inaudible]. We gave away almost 300,000 dollars in ten years. We raised quite a bit of money and gave it to these little grass-roots organizations. I was very actively involved on several boards with Shanti. I was on their first board of directors. I did group therapy with AIDS patients, and the community helped establish some of those groups. I was just as—I mean, really there was days during the week that I would leave work and go do some of this stuff, and it was like, almost a twenty-four hour kind of thing. I was just very actively involved in doing everything that I could. Did so for about ten years and gradually kind of started to burn out with some of them because you just don’t have the energy. Buried a lot of friends during those years; that was an awful time. Tremendous losses, you know, you had such a 18 �wonderful, talented group of people, and they’re no longer here. It’s really too bad because they were in the primes of their lives. They would’ve, you know, had AIDS not come around, been there, been here. Belmonte It sounds to me like Tulsa was actually pretty bold in responding to AIDS in the early stages. Gearin Very. We got very well organized through the Community Service Council, which was a United Way foundation group. Janice Nicolas and Joan Flint were kind of the spearhead of that, and they started getting the community together. All the organizations that were doing anything, we all started networking and we would meet down there once a month, and we would do planning. We would look at, “What are we having problems with? What do we need?” but there were several organizations that—respectable, you know, straight organizations—that were involved. It still offered, I think, for all of us, a little bit of a hope that not everybody is discriminatory, not everybody is going to dismiss us, that, you know, we are real people, we do have something to contribute. It was through those efforts of those women and some of the other—like the Visiting Nurse Association, our affiliation there—it was, really it was a wonderful time of networking and doing liaison work and growing and developing and, you know, meeting people and trying to see that we had a real need here, and we had a real void, and what could we do to plug in. It was a great time. It was a busy time, a hugely busy time, but very successful, as well. We had an infectious disease physician, who was very well-known in the community, Dr. Jeff Beale and his lover, Ted Campbell, and they were spearheading all the medical parts of it. They helped, you know. Everybody was involved; everybody was doing things. If you weren’t doing things, you at least went to some of the events and gave your money, you know, like follies or some of the other things. I can remember ice cream—there was always something going on. Interfaith AIDS Network was also around then, and they were an even—really smaller group. It was the Quakers and some of those folks, and they were involved, and they were doing ice cream socials and street fairs, and you know, everybody was trying to turn a dime. I mean, we were all trying to get money because we were wanting these organizations to help these young men. Trying to provide them buddies, trying to provide them support groups…we felt they were just hugely necessary. Catholic charities had St. Joe’s house, which was taking care of those that, once they became so debilitated, families couldn’t take care of them, and we could—you know, or they were abandoned. We could put them in there, and we could help take care of them. It was a time when everybody kind of bonded and pulled together. I think the gay community really started to see that they could have some support with the straight community. I mean, it 19 �was like—there were some real inroads made during that time. The AIDS crisis did a lot for other things, too. It wasn’t just the bad things; there were also some really very good things, very positive things that came out of that. This is just an incidental we’ll add in here. (Laughter) We’re going to backtrack a little. There were a lot of really funny things that happened when Linda and I used to go to The Club. They had a woman that was all into her; her name was Suki. Suki would always kind of monitor if we came in and came out and stuff like this. Jody usually was working behind the bar. Mary would sometimes, as well, and they would kind of circulate. They were the owners of the bar. One night, Linda and I were there, and it was a big crowd. I can’t remember exactly what happened to start it all off, but as I recall, I think a guy got pretty drunk and started getting pretty disorderly. Jody came flying across the bar, (Laughs) nailed a guy, pushed him up to the wall, and was holding him. Well, everybody is jumping up, and it’s like— everybody is now going to—when you know that something is happening, like a fight or something like this—it was the closest I ever came to being in a fight. It was like, everybody just wanted to, just gravitate. I’m up and out of the table, and the only thing I was really going to do was just to try and prevent other people from getting involved because Jody really had the situation under control, and the guy wasn’t really trying to fight her once he realized what was going on. I don’t think he ever expected that Jody was going to do that. None of us really did, but anyway, I was just trying to keep people back and keep them away. When I went back to the table, Linda is sitting there, looking at me, and she says, “My god,” she says, “I thought you were going to get in a fight!” (Laughter) I said, “Fight? No, I wasn’t going to fight. I was just trying to make sure that Jody didn’t get into trouble because all the other people trying to climb in top of him and get involved,” because back then, some of those women would have really just loved to have gotten involved. I was like, “Okay guys, Jody’s handling it. Just, you know, let’s let her.” I mean, they really would have liked to have handled it because there was a lot of role changes there. A lot of that was going on, that was when I was coming out with all of this. Women that were the butch and the ones that were the femmes. Belmonte So this was even in the ’80s that was still entrenched here. Gearin Actually, yes. That would have been the early ’80s. Probably because Tulsa is still behind, you’ve got to remember. (Laughter) Everything gravitates from the coasts, you know, either the West Coast or the East Coast. It takes it a while to get to the middle part of the country. Belmonte Janet, you were describing a few minutes ago a rather volatile situation at a bar in Tulsa and alluded to… 20 �Gearin Yes. Very exciting. Belmonte …the existence of kind of defined butch/femme roles in the Tulsa lesbian community. This is interesting, given that this was the early ’80s. Tell me a little bit more about that. Was that common among the couples that you knew? Gearin Oh, absolutely. When you went to the bar, it was—a lot of times, it was very much—you knew who was butch, and you knew who was femme—couples, you knew who were couples. I can remember Linda and I laughing and saying, “Do we look like them?” I never did see myself as one way or the other, but it was like when you went to the bar, it was really—it had to be kind of clarified as to who was who. You know, I would have people say, “Well, is that your wife?” and these kinds of things. I’m going, “Linda [inaudible] ever going to be my wife?” (Laughs) you know, because I had never—we didn’t know. We really were both pretty green with all of this because I didn’t have a whole lot of experience, and she had absolutely none. It was kind of fun because we didn’t really know how we were to behave, or if we had to assume a certain role, or not assume a certain role, or how we were to interact with these women. Over a period of time, you just kind of—you don’t even look at it, you don’t even see it, but I can remember the first few times going into the bar and seeing women who really looked more like men than they did women and thinking, “Wow, this is kind of interesting,” and wondering, “Should I—do I need to do that?” You know, this sort of thing. “Or are they just going to think we’re both femmes? What are we going to both be?” Struggling with some of that and not really knowing, having no [inaudible] what a lot of these women had gone through, it was kind of interesting to learn that they were very much that way all the time. They were that way in their jobs. I can remember my brother worked with Telex—one of my brothers—and there were several of the women that worked at Telex. They worked on those boards; you know, they did the computer things like that, and he knew them. He knew these women. He knew that they were lesbians, so at that particular time—we’ve since talked about all of this, I’ve asked him about it in terms of—retrospectively. It was kind of interesting at that time that they really dressed that way, they looked that way, and they had their wives, they had their girlfriends, whatever. You were real careful. I did see some fights. It was a whole new world to me to see women fighting, you know, across the lines and things like this. “Oh no, that’s my woman. That’s my wife. Leave her alone.” It was an interesting time at the bar. 21 �Belmonte Sure. That’s fascinating because this is something other parts of the country have been documented as disappearing. It’s starting to disappear in the ’70s. Gearin We probably, as I said, weren’t there. We probably weren’t there because we’ve always been a little bit behind. Belmonte You mentioned that you started to get a little burnt out with the AIDS activism. Gearin More burnt out, not so much with the activism, but with the follies. That was a ten-year, a year-round job for us. Rehearsals were in my house. (Laughter) All this sort of stuff, you can’t imagine. We made props in my house, and you’ve seen the house on [inaudible], so thank god it was as big as it was. We’ve had rehearsals out in the backyard by the pool, in the yard, dance lessons—I mean, the whole nine yards. It was a rigorous undertaking because it took a big part of the year to plan it. You had to know what you were going to do in terms of music. You had to get the music. Then we would have auditions and get entertainers and people across the city to help us backstage because we had to have a lot of help backstage. It was really a huge, huge undertaking. We did this on a shoestring budget. We would just leave ourselves enough money at the end of the previous show—we would just leave enough money in our budget to get started again the next year. We were always on a shoestring, but I knew it was always going to come through. I wore lots of hats: I sold advertisements, walked into businesses in the city and tried to sell ads, sold tickets. We did what we had to do. It was like ten of us that were on the board; we were a working board, and we worked very hard. It was a year-round thing. Belmonte Why was follies disbanded? Gearin Primarily because we just burned out with it. After ten years, we did ten years, and it was just too much. We were extremely successful; it was a very—by the time we quit, we were really doing quite well financially with it because we were making a lot of money. We had a patron chair; we started doing that early on. Bob Caesar was one of our board of members, and Bob was very—he’s an interior designer like Charles Faudree—and he was very—knew a lot of people. When we first were getting started with this, we wanted to try and get into the community—the straight community, if you will, because the gay community was getting pumped out, I mean, money-wise. They were supporting all of the AIDS things going on. We really felt like Tulsa, as a whole, needed to know about it, and they also needed to contribute. We needed the money; we needed their support. There came a period in time while follies was doing this, and I believe it was like around ’92, ’93, ’94, about those three years, that AIDS and HIV 22 �became a real popular bandwagon for you to contribute to if you were in the straight world. We took a real big hook and advantage of that. Part of that was Bob helped us to get chairmen—our patron chair, who would lend their name to the event and give us their guest list. We had huge numbers of people that we got involved and bought tickets and came to the show that were straight. We brought in a lot of money that wasn’t being tapped into, and that was really a good thing. That was a really good thing. During the course of the show, I would always give some interesting statistics. I was the announcer. I never was on stage. I was always backstairs, behind the scenes, with the camera off the stage area. You just heard my voice, and I always was the one that would announce the acts and introduce them and do all of these neat little things. I would develop some kind of dialogue so that I would give some information and history during the course of the show about what was going on in Tulsa and nationwide and worldwide. Belmonte Are there any tapes of any of these shows? Gearin I may have some of them still around. I’m not sure if I do or not. I’ll look in the archives and see. Belmonte It would be wonderful to have some of those, copies of some of those. Do you recall, in conjunction with the work you did with AIDS, getting opposition from the community in Tulsa? Gearin Yes, I got a lot of doors slammed in my face when I would go and want to try and sell ads or something like this. People, “Oh no, I’m not supporting that. Those men deserve what they got.” That sort of thing, I got it a few times. Not too much, but I did get it from a few businesses and things like that when I would try to sell advertising. When you have somebody that’s very well-known in this community, and very powerful, and very rich, and very wealthy, and they’re behind your show; they’re your chairperson, that’s pretty hard to say no to. I found that I would make it clear who was our sponsoring chair and what was going to be our patrons. Once they found out that, then I opened a lot more doors and was really helpful to us in getting incredible amounts of help from printing at the program. We got our program usually printed free, Judy Rogers’ lithograph. We had Kery Walsh, who was our designer for that. He still probably is very active in the community. Kery was wonderful to do all of our graphic work for our program and our layout, and we had several—we had two board members that primarily just did nothing but work on our program and our posters. We had some very well-known artists do posters for us: P.S. Gordon, for one. We just had an overall response that just helped bring in more and more people and get more and more involved. As I said, when you have patrons that have a name for themselves, then you have a little bit more 23 �legitimacy. That helped us. It opened doors. It did open doors for us. It was just a matter of like, after ten years, you just got [inaudible] about it. Belmonte Right. So the last year of follies was… Gearin ’98. Belmonte Oh, so not that long ago. Gearin We did the first one in ’89 and did the last one in ’98. Belmonte How do you think the gay community in Tulsa has changed from the time you’re describing, the years of the club, and now? You’ve recently made the decision to be part of TOHR again. Gearin Back—I was an active member for, I guess, about four years, five years. Then to come back after all this time…. I missed kind of some of the old things, to be quite honest. It’s interesting. I know—like with TOHR, when I first was going there and was really actively involved, we had huge meetings. I mean, we might have a couple hundred people come to a meeting. It was lots of folks; that’s what they were involved in. I miss kind of that. I miss the [inaudible] of getting up, conducting the meeting, all the things that go with that. The little subcommittees that, you know—I did bylaws one year, and I’ll never do that again; that was a terrible job for TOHR. I do miss some of those older things that we had because it was really nice. Now, it’s pretty much just the board and not so much the whole community as a whole that’s involved. That was nice. That was a nice thing to do. It was a great time. Belmonte I hope we can get that back. Gearin That would be nice. I really think it would be nice. It was very much needed back then, and I suspect it still is probably very much needed, that people do need to be out. I think the difference—in terms of following along with that—the difference is that, I think, I now go out more to people’s homes, even more so than I did back then. Years ago, I was out to the bars and things like this quite a bit, doing things, but now, it’s like you have small dinners with friends, maybe there’s ten of you and maybe there’s eight of you. It’s not quite so many large functions that I go to. I still know people that I met in the late ’70s, the early’80s, and they’re still good friends and we still socialize and things like this. I kind of—this is one reason why I wanted to get back with TOHR, was to get back with the [inaudible], see how much change has there been? Sometimes when you’re in a relationship, you don’t always see things and do things. When I was in follies, that was year-round. Even though the gay community was very much involved in all of that, it was also the straight community, as well. It was like working both 24 �of them because there were people on the board that were gay, but there were people on our board that were straight. I was not doing a lot of the other social things that I was doing when I first got to Tulsa. I was getting my social needs met differently, I guess you would say. It was more smallerscale in terms of homes and things like this. Belmonte Politically, Oklahoma obviously has a lot of work to do on gay rights issues. What’s your sense as a long-term Tulsa resident? Gearin I’ve always thought that there’s a certain part of Tulsa that’s going to be the redneck part, probably no matter what. You’re going to meet people that have bias; they’re probably not going to change their minds. I worry less about changing people’s minds directly; I’ve always been somebody, who, if I can lead them there and they don’t know I’ve led them there, or I can push them there—and I’ve done this for patients. That’s, I think, why I’m successful as a therapist is, I let the patients talk their way through things. Eventually, I give them little guidance here and there, and eventually they come around to where I feel they need to be to be healthier. They would agree with that, I’m sure. It’s the same thing in terms of the gay community. It’s like, you know, sometimes we beat that wall and we don’t really need to be beating it. If we just let life go, people come around. They realize that this is a democracy. This is, you know—we all want to just be treated equally, and that “Oh my gosh, did you know that your brother’s gay?” You find out that you know somebody gay. Back then, we didn’t find out that because we kept it more of a secret. Now, I think you see that people do know somebody that’s gay or they know of somebody that’s gay, and it’s like “Okay. Well, they’re a nice guy,” or “They’re a nice lady, it’s okay.” I think as we’re out, and that’s the beauty, I guess, of being out, is that people will see and understand us and know us for the people that we are. Eventually, our sexuality is not going to be a big issue in that. We’re all going to get there; it’s just a matter of time. It’s a process that we all have to kind of go through. I think that’s kind of where we’re headed. I think that’s a positive thing. Being a little bit of along the conservative and an old hat, some of the new things that were going on, like with the gay marriages, and I’m sitting there going, “Am I appalled or not? How do I feel about this?” (Laughter) It’s like, “Parts of that scare me and parts of it not scare me, but parts of that bother me in a sense that—oh, I guess I get the people with honey, not put it in their face.” There’s a little bit—it’s a fine line. Sometimes I really have to put it in people’s face, but then I don’t know if I want to be the one that does it. It’s like, “Okay, I’ll just sit back and watch it, see what’s going to happen.” I don’t know that I could honestly be on the front part with some of that, either. I would probably be more inclined to be—unlike Vivienne. Vivienne’s probably out there leading all of this. I’m sure she’s probably 25 �been on the steps of San Francisco. I’m not really quite that way. I’m kind of more of a behind the person, but I’m not going to lie to you, either. If people ask, I generally will tell them. I’m not going to try and hide that. I’m one of those that doesn’t talk about it a lot, it just is. As you get to know me, you probably know that, or you’ll sense that, but we’ll talk about everything, talk about me as a person, as a human, that comes first. Belmonte I think we’re going to end on that note. Davis Well, I have one thing I was going to throw out to see. You remember the VA. What was the impact of the “Don’t ask, don’t tell” in that community? Belmonte That’s an excellent question. Gearin The military guys—it’s really—I’m in mental health, so everyone I work with personally is very progressive. You’ve got to understand that they’re not going to be the ones that think that. We’ve been working in therapy with people who have been gay for years, so it’s not an issue. I think for other people, we all kind of laugh at it. It’s like, you’ve got to be kidding. That was the dumbest—I still think that was such a huge error in judgement to even have that as part of the military. Gays have always been in the military. They got by; they did well. They weren’t out, for the most part, although I think, again, a lot of people probably knew that they were gay, but they didn’t flaunt it, so they left them alone, and they didn’t—they just managed to make it. I’ve had too many men that were very actively gay when they were in the military, but they were also discrete, too. It’s a line of—you have to be real careful with it because there are some serious repercussions; you get booted out. If you get a dishonorable discharge, that’s a terrible thing. I think most of the guys would probably like to just see it not be there at all. It’s almost like it was an embarrassment to have it. It probably caused more bad than it helped. That’s usually perception of the military men that I’ve talked with. I have a lot of straight guys that talked—they knew they were fighting next to a gay guy, but they couldn’t care less. In Vietnam or Desert Storm or wherever, if they were able to fire at the enemy and protect his backside, I guarantee you they didn’t care that he was homosexual. They cared that he was a good soldier because that’s really why they were there, was to be a good soldier. I guess overall, it was—I think it was—probably most of us would probably say it was a bad thing. Again, I think it was a bad thing because originally, Clinton wanted to get rid of it altogether. When he realized he wasn’t going to be able to do that because he didn’t have the power to do it, then they changed it. To be quite honest, I think it probably would have been better off just to have left it as it was. I’ve always felt that that was—I think probably 26 �most of the people that worked with the VA or veterans probably feel the same way. I think we’re already doing “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I mean, when you really think about it, isn’t that kind of what we’ve been doing all along, to some degree in various ways? It’s always “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I’ve had people ask me over the years, “Well, how did your brothers find out? What if somebody asked you?” I’m going to tell them. I figure if they ask me, then they’re wanting to know, otherwise they wouldn’t ask me. I want to tell them if they ask me. If they don’t ask me, I may not necessarily volunteer; it just depends. Depend on how comfortable I am. Belmonte Janet, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us this afternoon. Gearin You’re welcome. I’ve enjoyed it, thank you very much. Belmonte This completes our interview. ------- End of interview ------- Addendum – Janet added this additional information in March 2026: Janet finished her career with the VA in January 2013. This is a brief synopsis of her career highlights with special emphasis on her carryover of her HIV work within the VA system. “I am not sure of the date, but I was invited to attend a 1-day VA Conference in Dallas Texas. That conference basically brought me into the HIV approach about treatment and education of VA personnel across the country. Since my area of practice within the VA was in Mental Health, I was a bit confused as to why I was invited. The conference was led by Dr Bopper Deyton from the VA Central Office. At the end of the 1 day event I was asked to attend a more detailed 3-day training in Baltimore. It was at that training event that I had been selected to be one of an HIV Consortium that would work across the country to other VA Hospitals to train medical and nursing staff on the care and treatment of persons with HIV/AIDS that presented to the VA for care. It was to be one of the most gratifying and rewarding experiences of my career. As an aside note I was sent to Chicago for an HIV National convention. Dr Deyton met me at the Conference Center and sent me to sit beside his friend and mentor. I was stunned when during our introduction to each other he noted he was Dr. Anthony Fauci. It would be the first of several HIV meetings/Conferences that we would meet. 27 �As a “by the way” I learned that Dr Deyton learned of me through a mutual friend…. Dr Jeff Beal! 28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Janet Gearin Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 22, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on February 22, 2004. Born in Vinita, Oklahoma on February 3, 1947, Janet lived in Duncan, Oklahoma and graduated High School in Lindsey, Oklahoma. She attended University of Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts (previously Oklahoma College for Women) in Chickasha, Oklahoma. She attended the University of Colorado and received a master’s in clinical psychiatric nursing from the University of California, San Francisco. With aging parents, she returned to Oklahoma and practiced with the 9 Department of Veteran Affairs in Muskogee and then in Tulsa. Janet entered into a 25- year relationship with a fellow VA nurse, Linda Stevens. In the 1980’s, both got involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR), the predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality. Janet helped with the TOHR helpline and became a key volunteer in TOHR’s HIV/AIDS outreach and testing. In 1989, Linda, Janet and others revamped TOHR’s annual Follies Review (dance and song stage show) for HIV/AIDS programming support. The Follies Review was presented annually through 2008. She also served as a counselor and advisor to Shanti, an AIDS support program started in Tulsa in 1986, and served on the TOHR board. Subject The topic of the resource Janet Gearin Oral History Project Interview from February 22, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janet Gearin, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS Support Program AIDS testing AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV testing Department of Veteran Affairs follies HIV testing HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDs outreach HIV/AIDs testing hotline interview Janet Gearin Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Linda Stevens OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma College for Women oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Shanti Shanti Project TOHR TOHR Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights HIV Testing University of California University of California San Francisco University of Colorado University of Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2003] Mike Green Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 4, 2003 Description An account of the resource Transcript only of oral history interview with Kerry Lewis on May 4th, 2003. Born on June 25th, 1932, in Tulsa, Mike served as the Oklahomans for Human Rights, Tulsa Chapter as its first Vice-President when it was formed in 1980. He often represented members of the LGBTQ+ community with various legal issues, including incidents of police entrapment. Married in 1955, he and his wife divorced in 1967 after which he became involved with Tulsa’s gay community. Mike passed in Tulsa in the early 2020’s. Need deed of gift. Tape says "1st Treasurer 1980-1982." Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Subject The topic of the resource Mike Green Oral History Project Interview from May 4, 2003 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mike Green, Kerry Lewis, Dennis Neill 2003 interview Kerry Lewis legal protection Mike Green OHR OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript police abuse TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/023559720fd72ce52b47697fd079f211.JPG 4dfd0f8858284e1c50788f51c9ec4b9f https://history.okeq.org/files/original/b5fde90b2684c2ec8438e2718e52f8c4.mp4 122ef854ea8cc57b0d701b3a8e39f867 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/a6620e81230ea3ccbc140ceb3d612311.pdf 9a54b9df7d6c3a4103fec956642cb721 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Kent Harrell (AKA Anita Richards) Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: December 23, 2025 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio.ai Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Project Interview December 23, 2025 Interview of Kent Harrell (AKA Anita Richards) by Toby Jenkins Addendum - Kent Harrell Show Notes from Riverside Studio AI Topics include: Drag performance, LGBT community, family dynamics, AIDS awareness, personal identity, marriage equality, pageant culture, early life, career beginnings Summary This conversation explores the life and experiences of Kent Wilson Harrell Jr., focusing on his journey through early life, family dynamics, understanding his sexual orientation, and his career in drag performance. Kent shares insights into the challenges faced by the LGBT community, particularly during the AIDS crisis, and reflects on his personal relationships, including his marriage to Taylor. The discussion emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself and offers advice for future generations. Takeaways Kent's family background includes a strong connection to the Air Force and NASA. Childhood experiences shaped Kent's understanding of gender identity. Acceptance of sexual orientation can be a challenging journey with family. Kent's drag career began in the late 1970s, inspired by performances he witnessed. The drag community has evolved significantly over the decades. Pageants in the LGBT community serve as both a platform for talent and a source of competition. 2 �The AIDS crisis had a profound impact on the LGBT community, leading to increased awareness and activism. Marriage equality has been a significant milestone for the LGBT community. Being true to oneself is essential for a fulfilling life Chapters 01:16 Introduction and Early Life 04:24 Family Dynamics and Schooling 07:23 Self-Discovery and Identity 10:21 Relationship Journey 13:21 Coming Out and Family Acceptance 20:13 Career Beginnings in Performance 25:15 Memorable Performances and Clubs 31:59 The Journey of a Performer 33:25 Pageant Culture in the LGBT Community 36:01 The Evolution of Pride Festivals 39:00 The Impact of AIDS on the Community 54:18 Love and Commitment in the LGBT Community ________________________________________________________________________Interview starts – Toby – please tell us your name. My name is Kent Wilson Harrell Jr. Toby - And for purposes of documentation, could you tell us your date of birth and how old you are at the time of this interview? 3 �March the 4th, 1960 and I am currently 65 years and about 9 months old I guess. Toby - Let's talk a little bit about how you got to us. The day of your appearance here in the world. So tell us where you were born, what city, and a little bit about your family. Well, my father worked for the federal government, and he worked for NASA. And he and my mother both were employees of Tinker Air Force Base. They worked for the Air Force. And my dad was constantly going for, what he did was quality assurance. Whenever the federal government would contract with an Air Force base to build a specific part for a plane or a rocket, or whatever and they needed a particular piece or something built, it was his responsibility to make sure that thing met government specifications. So he was constantly being moved to Air Force Base, Air Force Base, Air Force Base. So how I came into the world, he had been in Duluth, Minnesota for about six months, about four or five months, and my mother went to see him one weekend. And at this time, my dad was 43 years old and my mother was 39. They had a 17-year-old daughter and a seven year old daughter. So about a week or two weeks after that fact, they were out in an amusement park and my mother was a roller coaster fanatic and rode a roller coaster and got violently ill and went to the doctor the next day and the doctor said, you need to go to an obstetrician. And she went to the obstetrician. The obstetrician said, Mrs. Harold, you're pregnant. And she called my dad in Minnesota and said, guess what? We're going to have a new addition to my family. He said, no way. You're kidding. Anyway, long story short. That's how I came into the world from a weekend visit from Minnesota anyway. Toby - and they were living in Oklahoma City at the time. So you were born in Oklahoma City. Did you go to school in Oklahoma City? 4 �No, we lived in Oklahoma City until, well, for a long time, about two years, my dad was transferred to Vermont and New York State and then came back to our house in Oklahoma City after that and he came back to Tinker and then was transferred to North America Rockwell in December of 1964. So I was about four years and seven months old or so. So we moved to Tulsa and the first place we moved to was over on the west side. And we lived in an addition that's still in existence called Mountain Manor off of Southwest 33rd. The early days were Crystal City, shopping center and all that area around. Toby - and you went to school over in West Tulsa. Well, I started out, the situation was, in so much as both were working at North American Rockwell, my mother got a job there too. She was a statistician. And what they would do, they would drive from that area town towards North American Rockwell, and there was a little nursery school over on North Sheridan. And that's where they put me in daycare centers, we call them now. And so when I turned five, I had to go to kindergarten, of course, and the closest kindergarten to that daycare was Burbank Elementary, which is now the Bell Junior High School annex. And that's where I started my academia was at Burbank Elementary. Toby - Now, did you graduate from a Tulsa High School? No, as time went on, we ended up going from first to Tulsa, then they moved to Broken Arrow, and then from Broken Arrow to Rogers County and the Rogers County area. And we started out in Claremore and then moved to Oologah. So from seventh grade till my senior year, I went to high school and junior high in Oologah. And the reason I did that, my middle sister, because of my dad's position, had been moved from pillar to post, state to state, school to school. And when we finally settled in Oologah, I said, I'm not moving. I said, I'm not going to be transferred to any other schools. I'm going to stay here and graduate at this school. And if you don't like it, you're going to have to get me a transfer. And so that's what we did. And I spent from seventh to senior year in a very wonderful environment, a great, great school, and had a very normal academic situation in high school. 5 �Toby - and what high school. Oologah class of 197(?) Toby - For our viewing audience, I'm going to share a photo. How old are you in this photo? You're just a child. Six. Six years old. in this photo... Toby - You're dressed in a dress, looks like makeup. Tell us a little bit about, can you remember that event? My mother said once many, many years after the fact, she said, you know, when you were clumping down the hallway in my high heel shoes, I never expected you to turn it into a 45 year career. But I guess the situation was, I'm not going to say that I was, you know, you hear the stereotypical stories of a passive father, aggressive mother and all that kind of world. Not necessarily so with me, but my mother was a very gregarious individual. She was a wonderful personality and was a very colorful dresser. And she loved oranges and reds and greens and all vibrant colors. Well, men at that time were reduced to gray suits, blue suits, know, black suits. And here was this burden paradise in my household that was constantly looking so fabulous. And I thought that's what I, that's exactly how I'd like to be. so as stereotypical, I've heard this story from many, many gay individuals. I was attracted to, it was a crazy thing. I had my Tonka toys, had my GI Joes, I had my fire trucks, the whole rigmarole. But I also loved, my mom's high heels and all the bright colors and all the things and coming from that era no one ever specifically said to me you have to have a baseball or a basketball or a football or whatever. Whatever I wanted I got. It didn't matter to my dad whether I wanted a football which I had or a Barbie doll. Nobody ever cared. Which was so unusual from that time period. But you don't know it's unusual because it's your life, you know. Toby - So at six years old when you've got on makeup and a dress and high heels they thought it was 6 �They thought it was hysterical. My sister, at the time was 13, thought it was deplorable and that I was something to be hidden away as far as she was concerned. But no one ever took it seriously. They just thought it was funny. Toby - Now, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? How do you identify? You mean like of course I'm gay but I've always said male people have asked me it took me many, many years to make people in my family understand just because I was an entertainer a drag entertainer that I didn't necessarily want to be transgender full-time seven days a week Toby - Well thank you for sharing for that. Now you have a relationship. Tell us a little bit about your relationship. Taylor, my dear husband, Taylor and I met online when he was 19 years old. I didn't know how old he was. We got in contact on Facebook, and he got in contact with me instead of vice versa. I was just intrigued by this individual. I took a look at this face that I like, no face I'd ever seen before in my entire life. And something about him just was interesting. And I got to talking with him, asking who he was, where he was from. He told me he was from Minneapolis. I had no idea he was 19 years old. So when I found that out, I said, at that point in time, Facebook was talking to people or reporting that there were police departments around the United States that were using young men to entrap older gentlemen. you know, not knowing this person as I didn't, I didn't know whether that might have been the case also. So I found, once I found out specifically how old that he was, I said, I'm, I can't talk to you anymore. I'm sorry. And he said, but why? I said, well, you're just, you're too young. So I didn't speak to him for about close to a year and I did keep looking at his pictures and he kept looking at mine which I didn't realize till finally one day he messaged me and he said well, I'm 20 He said aren't I old enough for you to talk to now? Yes, I guess so and the situation was Taylor was Taylor felt he was transgender and from Minneapolis, Minnesota, and he was undergoing hormone therapy at that time. And he was engaged to be married to a gentleman that he was living with. But the gentleman that he was engaged to had a 7 �hard and fast rule. He said, if you want to take these hormones, that's your business and I can't stop you. But you will never, as long as you live under my roof, dress in female attire. And Taylor explained this to me and I said, you know, nobody has a right to tell you what you can and cannot be. If this is who you think you are, then you have every right on the face of the earth to be that. And I said, I'm going to give you an opportunity. I said, if you want to come to Tulsa and live with me, I said, I will make sure that you get the best medical attention. I will make sure in one way the other that you get the best best psychotherapy that you're going to have to have to do this. And I said, I will make sure that you get under the best medical care that you can have that we can find for you. If this is the person, you know, the avenue that you intend to be and who you feel you really are. So he said, he finally agreed to it. And he, and I said, well, then here's the, well, I said, I'm not rich. I have no money. I can't afford to send you here on a plane. But I said, I will try to get you here the best way I can. So bless his heart. He rode 17 and a half hours by bus to get here to Tulsa and as I told him We did get him under therapy Then he went through about and a half year worth of hormone therapy but somewhere along the way he didn't realize that it's a very hard and complicated thing to be a woman to there are certain things that you have to do in your day-to-day life that he really just didn't want to do so finally an individual who is very close to us who was trans sat him down and said Taylor you're about as female as the wall you're sitting against and I think you need to wean yourself off this medication and sit down and figure out who you really are and live your life, which is what he did. Toby - Thank you so much for sharing that. I want to talk to you a little bit about, this is your senior picture. Graduated from Oologah. Just curious, Kent, when was it that you realized that you were gay? I can tell you specifically. Toby - And tell us a little bit about maybe your interaction with your family. Because you and Taylor are legally married. And you're old enough to remember when same-sex marriage was not legal in Oklahoma. But tell us 8 �when you accepted your sexual orientation and maybe a little bit abouthow your family handled that identity. When I first realized that my attraction was more to the male gender, my mother and dad allowed me to go to a movie. I was 12 years old. There was a film that came out that year in 1972 called 40 Carrots. And it was about a lady who, a 40-year-old lady who on her birthday took a trip to Europe. And so on the prior was starring Liv Ullmann was the gal. And so in the process of this movie, she's driving along through Italy and her car stalls and she's on a bridge. And as she's out in the middle of nowhere, she doesn't know what she's going to do. And she walks over to the edge of this bridge and she looks down in this water. And there in this water is swimming this beautiful young man in a tiny yellow Speedo bikini. The yellow, the man in the bikini was Edward Albert Jr. And when he came up out of that water in this glistening, glistening photo, know, film, he came up out of that water. I was like, ha ha ha ha ha. And I knew right then that there was something a little different for me than most people. Or so I thought. I didn't know if I was the only individual like that or not. But that was the very first kind of initiation. Toby - You know, like all kids growing up in the 70s, you thought you were the only one on the face of the earth. You didn't talk about it. You know, I remember my mother and dad in a warehouse market and I was a movie magazine fanatic. And I was looking at some movie magazines and I was thumbing through and I looked down on the floor and there was a centerfold from that first, the very first edition of Playgirl magazine. And I unfolded that centerfold, went, holy cow. I folded it back up and put it in my pocket and it home. I stole it. Toby - You stole it.. I stole that sin and needless to say that was my little secret thing but there again I didn't you know I didn't discuss it with anybody really and to tell you the honest truth my parents were not they they you know as time went by of course you have revealed eventually you know they've put 9 �two and two together were they happy about it no no they weren't happy and there was a point in time where I finally said you know, you can't deal with this and I don't want to deal with you either. I, for my own purpose reasons, I moved to Tulsa. My sister said, you know, leave home, come to Tulsa. I was 19 and I moved to Tulsa. got a job. I went over and I moved into a place called Harvard Terrace Apartments around 21st and Harvard. I lived my own life and I didn't speak to my folks for over a year. It was a ridiculous thing to do because I was a very sheltered individual. I didn't know how to pay bills. I didn't know where you paid the water bill, the gas bill, blah, blah. Eventually lost the apartment, ended up homeless and still wouldn't go home. Still wouldn't go home. Lived in my car and then one day out of the blue I happened to see my parents. I was basically starving now. I had been doing drag all along. I had been doing drag here in Tulsa. I started in 1979 and but things weren't going great and being hungry as I was, I saw my mother dad drive down the street one day in their car and I thought, I'm going to go home, I'm tired, I'm starving, I'm going to go home and went home for two or three years, about three years and tried to live the life that I thought that's who they wanted me to be and then realized you just can't do it. You have to be who you are. You can't let somebody subjugate you into being somebody that you're not. And finally at the age of about 23 or 24, I came back to Tulsa. Toby - during that time had they resolved it that they come to accept that you were Well, a way, my mother once asked me, she said, you know, she said, I don't understand. She said, can't you just, you know, it's fine. That's your attraction is to men, but do you have to participate in that? Can't you just go over to the, you know, just stop it? And I said, mother, it's who you are. I said, you can't go off and you just, can't turn it off like a light switch at the wall. You can't just stop being who you are. It's who I am. I was born this way. You have to accept that. they did do it in time. But the real catalyst of the whole thing was when I was 26, I met an individual by the name of Larry Guz, who was my first long-term relationship. And he said, Kent, you've 10 �got to stop this. You've got to confront this. You've got to make them understand. If they can't love you for what you are, then they have to love you for who you are. And if they can't do that, they don't need you anyway. Toby – I want our audience to see a picture of your beautiful mom and dad. And they finally, my dad came to Larry and I and he finally said, if this is who you are, this is who you are and we accept you 150%. So that kind of, took a long, time, but they finally did. Toby - So, you're very. well known in Tulsa as Anita Richards. So I want us to kind to talk, begin to talk about your career as a performer. You said, you told us earlier that in 1979, and you would have been 19 years old, you already had started doing performance. Did you? How did you? How did come about that? I had never even heard of a drag queen. I didn't know there was any avenue that a guy could dress in female attire in public. I had no idea. From the time I was eight years old, was out in my mother's and dad's garage with a record player lip syncing to Funny Girl. I learned the lyrics to Don't Rain On My Parade before I could practically walk. I knew automatically and of course my parents thought I was nuts. You're hearing this kid who's out doing these big jaw long jams. So I knew that was something I wanted to do but I didn't know there was an avenue for it until one night there was a very fabulous nightclub here in Tulsa across the street from what is now TCC called Caruso's. And it had been there since the 1950s. It was a very sophisticated nightclub in the 50s called the Queen of Hearts. But by the time I came along, it had become a gay bar and was called Caruso's and it had a huge showroom that held about 250 people. And one night a young boy that I was dating said, let's go to Caruso's. He said, I'm going to sneak you in. He said, a friend of mine is performing on stage and needs a shirt from me. I'm gonna sneak you in and you sit in the back and I'm gonna go to the dressing room and give him the shirt and I'll come back and we'll watch 11 �his number and then we'll leave and get out of here before we get caught. So this boy, the gentleman performing his name was Samoy Alexander and he went by the name of Tracy Chateau, I'll never forget him. And he came out on stage, he was doing a song called The Deputy of Love and my friend brought him this western shirt covered with silver fringe and I saw Tracy come out and perform and I was like... Oh my Lord, can't, I want to do this, I want to do this. And the next individual that came out, I'll never forget it, was Trudy Tyler, who was, at that time, it was so funny, I was 19, Trudy was 21 and was already in Miss Gay Oklahoma of America. And when she came out on stage, it was a complete vision, I was just, it raptured. And I thought, this is something I'm going to do one of these days. So I... went back to work at Target and one Christmas we got some glittering ladies clothes and I saved up some money and bought a dress and the next thing you know I went to What Is Now the Eagle. This was 1979 mind you. I went to What Is Now the Eagle at that time it was Tracy's New Edition was what it was called and they had show nights, amateur nights on Monday and there was an intimate Queen there and I went in and brought a record and performed. My initial name was Anita Trick. And how that came by, I was standing there, the show director at that time, Tracy's was another very well-known Queen here in town, by the name of Miko Kassadine. to Miko Kassadine, she said, what's your name honey? And I said, My name's Kent. She said, no, what's your show name? And I said, I don't have one. She said, you have two entertainers ahead of you. You better find one, get one quickly so I can introduce you. And I'm standing there thinking, now, know, no one had checked IDs in those days. And here I am, this kid, I'm standing here thinking, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And a guy walked by me, he said, my God, I need a drink. And I turned around and I looked at me, and I said, my name's I Need a Trick. Well, she said, what? I said, my name's, I need a drink well she immediately thought I said Anita like Anita Bryant and she did introduce me on stage as Anita Trick and that was the first performance I ever did and so every time the Eagle holds much nostalgia for me you know but that anyway that started it out. Toby - You were talking about the performance in those days, this would have been in 1979. You get a record, you had to give them a… 12 �Yeah, you know cassette, no cassettes no CDs. The well-known Queens here in Tulsa they had these large leather cases and you put your record albums in the leather cases and they had a long strap you put the strap on the side of your shoulder carried it in with your luggage and the funny thing about 45 some odd years later Chris Cole and I were working at the Bamboo and someone came up with the grand idea that they wanted to do an old-fashioned drag show and they asked they said let's do this with albums, no cassettes, no CDs, let all the performers bring record albums. And so we had a little cast put together and the young people all agreed to it. They all said, we'll go out, we'll go research and go to the record stores and we'll find record albums and so forth. Which they did. And another gentleman who was one of the people that came to Bamboo brought a portable turntable sound system, which we used. But the funny thing about it was, in the days when those shows were done, Chris and I never were responsible for putting the show together. We were never responsible for the lineup of the entertainers and so forth. And you know that night we had 15 entertainers. Every single entertainer was doing three songs a piece. Every single song was on a specific album, so we're dealing with 45 record albums and having to label them and put them and I looked at Chris and I said it didn't use it was not this hard when we were kids. She said we were responsible for this movie. Well, didn't know any different. No, no, no, that's all we did. Toby – You talked about Caruso's, talked about Queen of Hearts, E-Ball, Tracy's. Tell us some of the other clubs where you performed. Oh, was some of them were clubs, some of them were dives. There was one downtown called Friends Lounge. I don't know if you remember, if you probably don't remember that. There was one... Well, the main club in those days, the very first bar that I was supposed to go to attend, we had a huge club here in Tulsa called the Old Plantation. You remember Old Plantation? And the very night I was supposed Where was it? I can't remember. It was 51st and Sheridan. The night I was supposed to go to the Plantation, one of the patrons set it on fire and burned it to the ground. So I didn't get to attend that club, but so the next largest club that everyone wanted to 13 �entertain at besides Caruso’s downtown was Zippers at 32nd and S. Yale. And that's predominantly where I started really, really entertaining was in Zippers. John Willis who owned Zippers was a very good friend of mine. It was a gay bar. It was a big disco. It held probably a hundred and maybe a hundred and fifty people. And I performed there for quite a while until they brought in a door lady and her name was Patty Murray Handley. And we all know Patty very dearly. And it was her first job. And I walked in with my suitcase one day for a performance and she said, I need to see your ID. And I of course automatically knew I'm 20 years old. I said, well, I left it out in the car. She said, no, I need to see the ID. She said, you can't perform in here. I said, I've been performing here for over a year. She said, well, you're not going to perform in here tonight because I'm not letting you in the door. You can come back four months from now when you're 21 years old. And I had to tell everybody and I turned around and walked out. Fast forward 40 plus years, I walk into a doctor's office of Dr. Jeff Beal and I had not seen this young lady since that probably about that time. And I walk in for my doctor's appointment and she's sitting at the admissions desk. And she took one look at my name and she remembered my face. And after she checked me in, I was sitting there in the waiting room and she said, could you come over here? Could you come over here? She said do you remember me and I said well I don't think so and she explained who she was and she said I have to tell you I want to apologize she said I have thought about this for over whatever it was 35 years I have felt guilty ever since that night that I didn't allow you to come into that club and perform like you had been I was just scared if I did I'd lose my job and she said do you ever forgive me I said I wouldn't remember this if you hadn't even mentioned it but of course I did anyway. She was following the law and I told her, I you know, I don't blame you. But you should follow the law. I don't blame her one bit. Toby - Well she was following the law. We here at Oklahomans for Equality believe that... What other clubs stand out in your mind? 14 �Really those are probably the most, there was a very place, I hate to use the term seedy, that's not a very good description, but there was a place downtown called, on 11th, called The Mining Company. And I performed there a few times, but predominantly Zippers, predominantly Tracy's. Toby -Now, during this time, you were a performer. Did you ever travel to other states? Not until later. I was the first individual from the city of Tulsa to ever perform at Angles. This would have been right because I was in Oklahoma City. As I say, I performed here in Tulsa from 1979 to about 1982 and that was when I decided to move back to Tulsa, move back to with my parents, which they were living 100 miles south from here, little town called Weleetka, Oklahoma. I stayed there two years and came back and once I came back in 84, I think it was 83 or 84, I started performing again and have continued on as a regular basis ever since that time. But in 1986, Angles in Oklahoma City had opened their very first talent show you might say. It was called Drag Off or Drag Race or something like that. Anyway, I won it. And by winning it, you had to come back, was the process of elimination. And by winning it and becoming the champion, I won a two weekend a month spot on the Sunday showcase at Angles. And so ended up being the first person from the city of Tulsa ever to work there on regular basis. As Ginger Lamar referred to me, I was the queen of the Turner Turnpike. She's the only queen in town that's got tire tracks up her back. Anyway, it was a lot of fun. Toby - So I know that you have won some titles and you participated in pageants. Tell us a little bit about the pageant culture within the LGBT community. You know today it's mainstream. There's you know top-tier shows that people sit every night and watch. But I always like them. But it was not necessarily in Oklahoma, but really it was. Miss Oklahoma, the America pageant system, course, is the oldest Miss gay America is the oldest pageant system in the United States. And it was it was formed in 1972 by the late Norman Jones, Norma Christie, and has continued on. And it wasn't until about 1977 that she released the royalty rights to permit, I guess you'd say preliminary pageants to get contestants for her Miss America pageant. You had to go through and still to this day have to go through a system. You win a preliminary title. Then if you go from 15 �there that sponsors you into a state title, which of course is like say you Miss Gay Tulsa of America, then you're sponsored into Miss gay Oklahoma of America. If you win Miss gay Oklahoma of America, you immediately are responsible to represent your state at Miss America, wherever it's held, Dallas or wherever. And that's still the same. It's been since 1972 and it's still the same way. Of course, as you say, now they're much more mainstream. I really personally, for me, my personal goal was predominantly entertainment. I wasn't I was not that much interested I did miss Tulsa USA in 1987 I think I did Miss Tulsa of America probably about 1988. But I wasn't necessarily interested in entertaining in pageants because in my estimation, a title was for a year. You spent a lot of money. Sometimes you won, sometimes you didn't. And I saw very negative aspects of the pageant system that I thought I just don't need to be a part of this. There's good aspects and bad aspects of everything and I saw both. And I thought my goal is to entertain in the public. That's what I want to do. I was happy to bring a little happiness into life and into other people's lives. But it wasn't until I was 57 years old a friend of mine opened a pageant system called American National Star, an independent offshoot. I told Taylor, I said, know, I wonder if I can do this. And he said, well, why don't you start a little late? And I said, well, long as you're breathing, that's my goal. As long as you're breathing, you have a chance and you can still move and God gives you decent health, go for it. So I entered American National Star Classic and won that and of course people said some of the judges said you know what is your goal here I said to prove that no matter how old you are if there's a goal that you want to accomplish you can go for it as long as your health holds out you feel like you're physically able to do it you do it well lo and behold I won that pageant and then went on to their state title and won that too. And then, so by me doing that, I was asked by my dear friend, Brandon Patrick, aka Chanel Sterling, to at 58 years old to enter the Miss Gay Tulsa pageant. She said, have you ever been Miss Gay Tulsa? And it was a rumor from a thousand years that I was at one time a Miss Gay Tulsa, which I never had even entered the pageant except once. So I had done that. I entered Miss Gay Tulsa of America. It was majestic and came up first runner up. And then was responsible to go to Miss Oklahoma and one first 16 �run up out of 13 other kids at 59 years old and the reigning Miss Gay America walked up to me that evening and said, you are who I want to be when I grow up. And I thought that was so precious. And I am proud to say I have the highest standing score of any individual in personal interview of any Miss Oklahoma of America pageant that's ever been. And the current Miss America that year. She said, now when you go to nationals, she said, I want you to do something for me. And I said, what's that? She said, I want you to be just exactly who you are right now. Because she said, if you are, she said, they'll fall in love with you just like I have. I thought that was so sweet. Sad to say, God and nature had other plans. Because after the four day Miss Oklahoma pageant, I came down with arthritic neuropathy. And was unable to practically walk for about the next month. And so I wasn't able to attend Miss America Pageant, but things work out for the best, guess. I don't know. Anyway. Toby - Did you ever perform at Pride? Only for about 25 years. Toby - First Pride Festival. I don't know, I couldn't honestly tell you the first one I performed at, the first one that I went to was in 1993 when we were out at Mohawk Park when it was considered a... was sort of, were all sort of, people were separated. Remember, I didn't see a lot of unity out there because there were different groups sitting all around. I was glad when it finally got more unified and moved downtown. But the first Pride I ever performed at I think was about 1996. Toby - So that's the first pride you ever went to. I don't know, 1993 was the first one. Toby - Now you eventually became... Queen of Tulsa Pride. I think so. One of my proudest moments. 17 �Toby - You're still considered the… So you talked about your love of drag was you wanted to entertain I can remember you being a regular cast member at Twisted Theater at Renegades. And you were a part of the Twisted Theater with Tabitha and I can remember you were a hit as Rose on the go. You were part of the Golden Girls cast and played Rose. You remember performing at Pride Day? Yeah, that's what is the what's the park? Toby - Well today it's called Veterans Park, but at the time it was Centennial Park. That was without a doubt. we all, all of us who participated in the Twisted Theater performances consider those our happiest days. We all still talk about it. Toby - Record crowds. And Tabitha Taylor, who is now Brielle Cassell, gave me the opportunity to perform roles that I would never in my entire life had a chance to do otherwise and it was the most unique experience. we all, she stretched all of us to the full capacity that she thought we were capable of performing. And I mean, I got to do things like Betty Davis or Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, as you say, Rose in the Golden Girls, and Sissy in the Sorted Lives, and all those, we performed. Toby - I remember some beach movie. Frankie Avalon, was Frankie Avalon and the footage of Beach Blanket Bingo was one of those we did. And then Little Shop of Horrors. Basically, for those who might not understand what we're talking about, Twisted Theater was where basically they chose a film. Did a little shopping, cut out all the unnecessary subplot, kept the main storyline, and added music to accentuate the story and to move it along. The most famous one, I believe, that was ever done was The Exorcist. what the director would do, he would take out the subplot, look at the film, use music to accentuate the different part, and sometimes there would be music that didn't even have anything to do or wasn't any part of the particular film, but it still was relevant to the story itself. And that's kind of what Twisted Theater 18 �was. was like, for instance, probably one of the most famous ones was we did the Wizard of Oz. But when Dorothy came and knocked on the wizard's door, instead of the, she and the scarecrow and the cowardly lion got to Oz, instead of meeting the wizard, when she opened the door, she was confronted by by Dr. Frankenfurter from Rocky Horror Picture Show. And that particular instance, Dr. Frankenfurter happened to be me. So that's kind of what it was anyway. And it was a wonderful opportunity to perform. I don't know if we'll ever see those days again. But there have been people who have tried to copy that format. And some of them have been very successful. Probably the single most successful use of that format is is Chanel Sterling, who is without a doubt one of the single most all around talented individuals drag or otherwise I have ever known or ever met in my entire life. And a treasured treasured friend. Toby - Let's talk a little bit about your 65. So you've talked about the 1970s all the way to the present. Tell me about the first time you heard about AIDS. I was sitting in a club. I had just come back to Tulsa, as I said, in 1983, I think, 83, 84. And I was sitting in a club and a former boyfriend of mine came in and sat down. He had just come back from New York and we got acquainted and we began to visit. And I said, how was New York, Dean? And it was Dean Martin. He said, oh, kid, he said, it's horrifying. I said, horrifying? What are you talking about? He said, there's something going on there. They call it gay cancer. I said, gay cancer? What do you mean? He said, it's a disease. He said, it's killing people just right and left. He said, you'll see someone out at a bar on a Monday and they'll be gone by Thursday. And he said, it's it's unexplainable. And I never heard of it. I didn't know what it was. didn't know. I didn't understand that it was how it was transmitted and so forth. The first person in Tulsa that ever passed away that was the first person that anyone knew about that came in contact with HIV and passed away from the disease was a young man by the name of Paul Pack, who was a bartender at a club downtown called Tim's Playroom owned by... was Tim Turner, Tim Turner. And his lover was a very well-known female 19 �impersonator here in Tulsa, she was Shawna Michaels. And all we knew was that Paul got very sick and he was the first person that anyone had ever heard of that had, was Kaposi Sarcoma. And we all knew that he had... away, well automatically that kind of put a face to the situation here in Tulsa specifically. And we didn't, any of us, know, you know, what it was, how we basically came in contact with it. And we knew how it was transmitted, of course, but we didn't know the ins or outs of the disease. everyone automatically started getting tested. And I remember the very first test that I ever took was in 1986. I was 26 years old. I was terrified, absolutely terrified. And the health department. Toby – That’s where you took that test? And once they found out what you were in there, they treated you like what you were there for… they treated you like basically you were a vermin, you know, and you're just non-human. And as time went by, after, by 1987, I was with, as I said, my other half, Larry, who was a patient of Dr. Jeff Beal. And Jeff was the first medical physician that I'd ever come in contact who knew what was going on. And he basically held meetings and tried to explain to people the severity of what was happening and how there needed to be funding for research and so forth. And was very much on the forefront of that. And we realized then the enormity of the situation we were in. And the very first time, I will tell you. I didn't think I was going to get emotional about this. The first time I ever was confronted with it completely. I was at a pride celebration on the campus of the University of California in Irvine. And they had brought the AIDS quilt to the campus and they put it in the Student Union and it was in different levels of the Student Union. So they divided it up so that you could go and see it. And I was a member of the court system in California, in Orange County at that time and I was there with one of their booths. And I left during a break and I went to the Student Union and walked through and I can tell you that I don't normally get emotional in public. I'm not that kind of an individual. But when I was confronted with those faces and with the, all the, just the whole enormity of the quilt itself, I just fell into pieces. The next thing I knew, they were picking me up off the floor and handing me a box of Kleenex. And I kept saying, I'm so sorry. I said, no. Toby - Do you remember what year that was? 20 �19, let's see, I moved to California in November of 1988. So this would have been about 1990. And it was just, you know, it just hit you directly in the face. But I... After I came back to Tulsa in 92, I lost a number of friends, personal friends that passed away with AIDS. And like we were talking about on the phone last night, one of the individuals was 33 years old. And he had come in contact with it through the first sexual partner that he had ever physically been with and had been dealing with the disease from the time he was 20 until he was 33. And he was a patient of Dr. Beal’s. And I remember him saying to me, he said, I don't understand it. said, you know, you, I haven't lived any different life than you have. You and I, we've had the same experiences. Why am I in this situation that you're not? And I truthfully didn't. I said, Michael, I don't know. I don't know. But I said, all I know is I want to help you as much as I possibly can. And I watched that poor young thing, young man, 33 years old, pass away, the most horrific death I've ever seen in my life. And you just, and I struggled with the guilt. You do, you can't help it. Because you think, how did this get me? And all I can say is that I think I have been put here for a purpose. Obviously there must be some reason or another or otherwise it would have been I would have been in the same situation and the only thing that I could do in help with him there was a doctor here in town the name of Ralph Richter who was participating in a study through a company called VaxGen and a doctor had developed what he said was a vaccination for the AIDS virus. And they were doing a blind test study through this doctor's office and I participated in it. And they basically, they gave you shots of the synthetic antibodies, basically what they were. You didn't know whether you were getting the placebo or whether you were getting the vaccination itself. There was a series of 10 shots that she took once a month, 10 months. Midway through, I began to start getting ferocious colds and illnesses and coming up with all kinds of strange bruises and so forth. I finally asked one of the medical people in his office, said, how does my body know that what you're and you couldn't tell have an AIDS test because if you did you automatically came up positive. Anyway I asked the nurse, I said how does my body know that I'm not getting the actual antibodies? I said how does my body know that it's 21 �synthetic? And she really couldn't answer so I quit participating. And about four months later right before the study was over with they explained to me they said you know we were just getting ready to close we wish that you would come back and continue this and I went ahead and did it. I went ahead and finished the test honey and lo and behold After it was all over they sent me notification that I hadn't been given the vaccination Now what was sad about that? One of the reasons that I quit was I didn't know at the time that this shot these inoculations were $900 apiece and I asked the Representatives of the company that were in the doctor's office. I said what makes you think that any young gay individual walking down the street is going to have $900 or basically $9,000 on 10 shots to be able to afford this. They can't do it. I said, how many insurance companies are going to sponsor this? Well, they had no, you know, they had no response to that really. Anyway, lo and behold, of the gentleman who invented the vaccination to try to get the American Medical Association to approve it. He was a doctor of course who dealt with aged patients. He took the blood samples, drew blood from his most terminally ill patient and transfused the blood into him, so the contaminated blood into his own body. And he never came up with the disease. And he tried to present that as a case to the AMA that for sure that this vaccination actually did work and they still refused to approve it. So it was all that trouble for nothing basically. Toby - I can remember you helping us raise money to buy this building. You would perform at some of the big events that we would have. I can remember you and Chris Cole performing at the old Brady Mansion on Denver. That was such a unique experience to come down those stairs and see all those people at the foot of it made you feel quite like a celebrity. Toby - What about, let's, you and Taylor were able to be legally married. I want to share your picture. And y'all got married in drag. He was still, he was the guest speaker that year 2014, November 2014 at the transgender day of remembrance. We had been together by this time three years. And as you all know, we had gone through our first initial commitment ceremony here, but I knew that he was scheduled to go up to Oklahoma City tonspeak at that organizational meeting. And he was 22 �involved at that time with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, which that organization. And he was very good friends of the individual who officiated our ceremony, who had gone through a minister, what's the correct term? Toby - A minister ordination. And that gentleman, the clinic, called me one day and he said, I have to tell you something. And he said, I think you should know. I said, what's that? He said, Taylor is preparing to surprise you with something. And I said, what's he going to surprise me with? He said he's bought a ring and he intends to propose marriage to you after he gets done with his speech at the organization meeting. And he said, I want to know, are you going to say yes because we've got to buy license. We've got to get everything together beforehand. We just can't throw away, have a ceremony. We need to do all this legally and I want to get it all prepared. I was quite frankly aghast. I didn't know what to say. Because the idea of being legally married had never really entered my mind. But I got to thinking personally about the situation and I thought this is this way I know that he is taken care of. I said, I know he's going to be taken care of, that there's nobody in my family that can come in and take anything away from him. That if it's all legally shared together. So I thought this is probably the best thing we can do for each other. And so he didn't know I knew anything about what was going to happen. So after he got done making his speech, he said, now I want to bring my other half up to, we were all outside with the candlelight ceremony. then I came up and he got down on his hands and knees, or she, she I should say, she got down on her hands and knees at that time and proposed. And I said, of course, yes. Well, we went into the building we were all attending this meeting. And Robin Dorner was the president of the gala, she'd already gone and bought the wedding cake and the whole nine yards had the license and everything there. The funny situation about it was we were standing on a platform about as high as this table when we to officiate the ceremony and go through the nuptials and when Clint said, 23 �do you, take this individual to be your lawfully wedded spouse to have and to hold until you part? When he had gotten aware of the situation it hit point blank in his face and he fainted. I was standing there. I watched his eyes roll, her eyes as I said she was a drag. I watched her eyes roll completely back on her head, turned snow white and started to fall. And I just grabbed her by the hand and jerked her back. He came back and I asked him, I said, what happened. He said, because I realized that this was for real, for real. This was this was going to be the lasting thing. There was no turning back, you know, the enormity of the situation. He looked me square in the face and he said, I'm glad we did it My father bless his heart. I loved him so dearly. He, when Taylor decided to become transgender or thought she was transgender. I didn't think I was going get emotional. My mother had left a pair of earrings on the table. And he had lived at this table all the time. My mother had been gone about a year. Excuse me, I can't believe this. This is crazy. She'd been gone about a year. And I didn't know what he thought about Taylor all of a sudden assuming a female identity, which he hadn't been when he came here. Because as everyone does when you're transgender you have to spend a year living in you know in your chosen attire what she was doing at the time and My dad walked over and he took the earrings off this table and he put them in Taylor's open hand And he said Mrs. Harold would be proud of you for having the courage to be who you feel that you really are. And he said, nobody can take that away from you. And that to me was just unbelievable. As time went on, Taylor decided that wasn't who he actually truthfully thought he was. Who he thought he was wasn't who he was anyway. But it was a situation that my dad did that. And I will tell you that when my father passed away, it affected Taylor almost more than it did me because he was, for the first time, had been totally accepted 100 % in that world. I had a very, very, very unique set of parents. Toby - This has been wonderful. Is there anything else you would like to say before we close out this interview? A message you might give to generations who come after you and watch this video. 24 �Be who you are. Don't let anybody, don't let anybody try to hold you down and try to make you who you aren't. You only have one chance at life and the thing you have to do with that one chance is to make the most of it as you possibly can and that's being true to yourself. That's the main goal in life is to always be true to yourself. Toby - One more time for the camera, your full legal name. Kent Wilson Harrell. Jr. 25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Kent Harrell Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Toby Jenkin’s December 23, 2025, interview. The interview explores his life and experiences focusing on his journey through early life, family dynamics, understanding his sexual orientation, and his career in drag performance. Kent shares insights into the challenges faced by the LGBT community, particularly during the AIDS crisis, and reflects on his personal relationships, including his marriage to Taylor. The discussion emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself and offers advice for future generations. Subject The topic of the resource Kent Harrell Oral History Project Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kent Harrell, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 23, 2025 2025 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill HIV HIV/AIDs interview Kent Harrell OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2021] John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' Interview Subject The topic of the resource John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from March 18, 2021 Description An account of the resource John was interviewed on March 18, 2021, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project. In the interview, John discusses his involvement in the LGBT community and as a two-spirit leader and elder at Oklahomans for Equality and for the Muscogee Nation Behavioral Health. A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the History Project Archives at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke', Arlowe Clementine, Matthew D. Williams, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 18, 2021 2021 Arlowe Clementine available at Center Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project interview John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' Matthew D. Williams Micki White Muscogee Nation Muscogee Nation Behavioral Health Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project OSU Oral History Project transcript two spirit two-spirit Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Bob Inglish Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 30, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 30, 2004. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Bob grew Okmulgee, Oklahoma. He attended Oklahoma State University and received a law degree from the University of Oklahoma. While at OU, he came “out.” He returned to Okmulgee and entered into a law practice with his father. Although practicing in Okmulgee, Bob lived in Tulsa, where he realized in the late 1970s that the gay life was almost solely centered on the bars. With Dennis Neill, Mike Green, Gary Durst and others, in 1980 they became the Tulsa Chapter of Oklahomans for Human Rights, which was formed around 1977 in Oklahoma City. Bob served as the first treasurer of OHR. The early focus of OHR was to provide social and educational opportunities to the LGBTQ community in addition to the bars. In 1985, the organization became its own nonprofit under the name of Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Bob highlights the early challenge of engaging with the lesbian community to broaden OHR and TOHR’s outreach. He discusses the origins of the Harwelden Party which began in 1980, and the Black and White Party held for 10 years in the 1980s. He talks about his involvement with the ACLU and Tulsa’s and TOHR’s response to the AIDS crisis. Subject The topic of the resource Bob Inglish Oral History Project Interview from January 30, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bob Inglish, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 ACLU AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center Black and White Gala Black and White Party Bob Inglish Dennis Neill Gary Durst Harwelden Party HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Mike Green OHR OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OU TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Oklahoma University of Oklahoma (OU) video