1 20 55 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/320d437d44e058a1c10df596b65f542b.mp4 afd12d3e5bc94309d8993ee1619c5595 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/92880036a522ecbbf758f71b648fb7a0.pdf dd57b2cf9caee06bb59f00c1812ddc05 PDF Text Text 1 Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Michael James Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: July 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Mary Bishop-Baldwin using Reduct.Video AI July 24, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org �2 About Michael James: Summary In this in-depth interview, Michael James, known as MJ in the community, shares his journey living with HIV for nearly 30 years, his activism, and his extensive involvement in LGBTQ+ advocacy, community service, and HIV awareness initiatives in Tulsa. Discover inspiring stories, community efforts, and the importance of resilience and support. Keywords HIV, LGBTQ+, community activism, Tulsa, HIV awareness, advocacy, Rainbow Library, Pride, HIV retreats, community service Key Topics MJ's personal HIV journey and living with HIV for nearly 30 years Community activism and LGBTQ+ advocacy in Tulsa The significance of HIV retreats and community support programs Historical overview of LGBTQ+ bars and social spaces in Tulsa MJ's involvement with American Airlines' diversity and inclusion efforts The story behind the AIDS quilts and their importance in remembrance MJ's role in organizing Pride events and community fundraising The impact of healthcare policies on people living with HIV The importance of resilience, support, and community in health and advocacy Future directions for HIV awareness and LGBTQ+ support in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 00:56 MJ's Volunteer Work and Community Involvement 03:51 The HIV Wellness Retreat and Its Impact 07:00 MJ's Personal HIV Diagnosis and Early Days 10:06 Living with HIV Since 1992 and Medical Care �3 14:59 MJ's Childhood and Coming Out Journey 19:58 MJ's Military Service and Awareness of Sexual Orientation 24:51 Early Social Life and LGBTQ+ Social Spaces in Tulsa 30:01 Career Transition and Work at American Airlines 34:45 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Employee Groups and Pride 39:55 Community Fundraising and Support Activities 44:59 The AIDS Quilts and Their Significance 55:01 MJ's Advocacy and Community Leadership 59:59 Future of HIV Awareness and Community Support 01:05:00 MJ's Message to Future Generations Michael James Oral History Interview July 21, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon. Today we are in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. It is July 21st, 2026. The thermometer outside is a hundred degrees, and it's a hot interview coming up for you. We look forward to it. Today, our special guest is: Michael James: Michael James. Toby Jenkins: Michael James, better known in the community as MJ, and he gives a whole new definition to the worker bee, and we are so honored to have him here. We are in the library, and this is the Oklahomans for Equality History Project interview in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, home and headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality, which sits on Pride Street in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma. Today our interview panelists are Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality; Mary Bishop-Baldwin, plaintiff in the Oklahoma marriage equality lawsuit. We are so glad to have you today, Michael James. Are you comfortable with us calling you MJ, since that's how we all know you, or would you rather use your Christian name? Michael James: MJ is fine. Toby Jenkins: Okay, we want to jump right in. Got a page full of yeah, yeah, amazing to have you. First of all, I want us to start with talk – kind of tell us some of your volunteer work that you do right now, today, here at the Equality Center, so people know kind of what you do, and do you still serve on the Advisory Board? Michael James: Unfortunately, no, in regard to the Advisory Board, because they did away with those at the – here just recently, so didn't have enough to go. So as far as volunteering, now I am, I manage the bar down in the Linn Riggs Theater. I'm here for every event. Within those events, I make sure that they have a crafted cocktail specific to their event to make their event just that much bigger, better, you know, for their, their �4 clientele. So I do that. I also do some volunteer work, and I'm part of a group called Positively Grateful, which is an HIV resource group, and we meet here every Friday at 6 o'clock and have a community meal. That is really open to the public. If you don't know anything about HIV, STDs, we have learning situations. Other than that, it's a place to just come and meet new folks that have the same issues that you do. You know. So. Toby Jenkins: So are there – do families attend these meetings sometimes who recently there maybe their loved one has got an HIV diagnosis, or I mean, is this … ? Michael James: So, my mother comes to every meeting that she possibly can. She hasn't here lately to her health issues. But, yes, we have partners; we have family; we have grandchildren; we have nieces, you know, and we also get that at our yearly retreat. That's the whole point of Positively Grateful is we fundraise for a yearly retreat every year at the end of August, and that just goes so, so that anybody who is newly diagnosed, has been living with HIV, or their caregivers, can come spend four days for a nominal registration fee of $50, meals included, all types of – you're out Choteau, Oklahoma, 45 minutes away, but yeah, it's so that they can know what to expect. Toby Jenkins: And how many years have y’all had this? Michael James: Positively Grateful is going on three years. Prior to that there was a group called Positively Grateful – no, Grateful -- anyway. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Grateful Day. Michael James: Grateful Day. Thank you, sorry. And I was with them about five years, and we started in a camp up in northeast Oklahoma – really great camp. But I've been supportive of those events. I have been a camper. I've been a volunteer. Anything I can do to help that go smoothly for not only the organization but the campers, I'm gonna, … Toby Jenkins: Maybe I – I may be merging some things. Was this originally, this HIV wellness retreat, wasn't it started by Hope Church, Michael James: Community of Hope. Toby Jenkins: Community of Hope by Rev. Bob Lawrence? Michael James: That is a true statement, yes. Toby Jenkins: So the retreat's been around at least 20 years probably. Michael James: Yes, and then it went away, and then we picked it up. The original founders of Grateful Day were Sabrina K. Marshall, Shana, I can't remember Shanna's last name. Toby Jenkins: Justice Flowers, aka Sabrina. Michael James: Yes, Shana, and then they brought, Toby Jenkins: Cozad �5 Michael James: Yes, Cozad, and then Chuck, they brought Chuck Courtney in, and that's how I really got involved with them was through Chuck. Chuck and I went to school together, so. Toby Jenkins: Now, is Penny Fruth still involved with this? Michael James: Unfortunately, Penny has left the group. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but she was involved. Michael James: She was involved, yes. Very good ally. Toby Jenkins: Now, tell us how critically important this retreat is to a portion of the community that – it's kind of like the highlight of their year. Michael James: So it is. I mean, being a person diagnosed with HIV back in '92, you feel like you're on an island and, you know, yes, you have all these people that you see day to day and stuff, but you really can't truly just be yourself and, you know, and what this does is it gives them four days to come be themselves and not worry about any stigma. Just the people themselves, seeing them come in, you know, just kind of cornered up, you know, and then by the end of the retreat, it's just this big, beautiful … person, you know, that you didn't even expect to see. Things like that just really... Toby Jenkins: And where is the retreat taking place now? Michael James: Retreat now is at Camp Christian. Toby Jenkins: It's been there for now how many years? Michael James: Oh, uh … Toby Jenkins: Ten something? Michael James: Yes, yeah. I would say eight to 10. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Michael James: So, very wonderful group. They shut down the camp altogether so that we can have that weekend to be ourselves. Toby Jenkins: We're gonna ask you to do something with either slip your watch in your pocket or something, so we don't... Yeah, sorry about that. Okay, and now that way you can feel free to use your hands. I love this retreat. It meant the world to me. For several years, I had to help secure the grants for this retreat, and they would gather here and transport up there. Now, I know back in the day, usually they had 30, 35 people. Is it still? Michael James: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: They did have one of the lodges burned down. Yes, one of the newest lodges burned down, like, right after they referred. We had just left. It was their first year �6 to have it open, like, two months, and, yeah, it was scary. But wonderful group of people out there. We went to their grand opening, their groundbreaking ceremony for the new lodge. Very welcoming, you know, all different types of faiths. Toby Jenkins: So, the name of the camp is? Michael James: Camp Christian. Toby Jenkins: Now, is it a faith-based nonprofit, or is it tied to a particular denomination? Michael James: So, I can't remember. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: It's a camp of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: So, it's the Disciples of Christ? Michael James: Yes, yes, yes, exactly, exactly. Toby Jenkins: So, it's an inclusive denominational... I guess the Disciples of Christ now are inclusive and affirming. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: I wouldn't say every congregation is, no. Toby Jenkins: But it's an official policy of the denomination, right? So, I'm glad that they work closely with you. Anything else about that retreat? Michael James: Oh, you know, I just, if you know somebody who is, please support them. Show them all the love you can. If you can go learn about the, you know, HIV or STDs, take the time to do it. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you said you were diagnosed in 1992. Was that here in Tulsa? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And can you tell us a little bit about that experience? And now that's, so that means you've been living with HIV for almost 30 years, 34 years? Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: It was really scary. I had just gotten with my partner and something happened that made me go to the doctor. And I think I had just gotten insurance. Not always been the life of luxury for me, you know, just like everybody else. Ups and downs. You know, I was a hairdresser after I came out of the Army. Went to school to be a hairdresser, did that for a while. Met up with my partner, and in '92 found out that I was HIV positive and got kicked to the curb. Yeah. My mother was there and very supportive, went to my appointments with me. If it wasn't for our lab tech, Dorinda, you know, telling me, “Hey, you know, it's kind of like drugs. You don't worry. You don't let them work you. You work this disease. You tell it what's gonna happen.” And that's �7 pretty much how I've lived my life, you know. I'm not gonna let it get me down. I'm gonna do what I can. Toby Jenkins: Now in 1992, this would have been still during the ATZ years. Michael James: Compavir, yeah. Toby Jenkins: I mean, so was that what, were you started on it immediately? Michael James: Yes, yes, yeah. I wasn't diagnosed with HIV, with, AIDS. I was diagnosed HIV positive. I was just above. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you had no symptoms? Michael James: Correct. So, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But you started on the medication? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Because there was a period where if, unless you had symptoms, they didn't start you on the medication, but they started. Michael James: They gave me the option, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and that would have been in 1992. Had you had friends who had had HIV, and had you had friends who had died of AIDS? Michael James: At that time, I didn't know. I was fairly new to the coming out at that point in time. Yeah, so a small-town boy. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so you weren't necessarily aware of … . You hadn't had a friend die of AIDS. Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: I'm so glad that your mother was there with you and supported you. Let's talk a little bit about your childhood. Where were you born? Michael James: Cushing, Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Whoa, didn't know that. I had no idea. Michael James: My mother had to drive. We lived in Sapulpa. On Mother's Day, they drove to Cushing, Oklahoma, to deliver me. Toby Jenkins: Why did they go to Cushing? Michael James: That's where her doctor was. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: This was back in 1966, Toby. �8 Toby Jenkins: The good ol’ days. Michael James: Rural Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Well, also would have had big oil influence. Rural hospitals in those days in Oklahoma were heavily funded by the petroleum industry, so that's a side fact. So, you were born in Cushing, but your family lived in Sapulpa. Michael James: I grew up in the Creek County area. My grandmother lived in Sapulpa. I had a Sapulpa address, a Kiefer telephone number, and I went to school in Mounds. Toby Jenkins: Oh, Mounds. Okay. Michael James: Not Liberty! Liberty is on the east side. We got nuts. Toby Jenkins: So, in school, were you athletic or in the music program or band? Michael James: I was actually in the choir. So, went to state several times. I was like a first soprano up until sophomore year, so, and then, yeah, I started smoking. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you were used music in high school. When you graduated, what year would that have been? Michael James: 1984. Toby Jenkins: From Mounds High School? Michael James: From Mounds High School. Toby Jenkins: And how many were in your graduating class? Michael James: A little over 30. Toby Jenkins: Oh, really? Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I thought Mounds was bigger than that. Michael James: No. Toby Jenkins: Well, I guess not. Michael James: Not back then. Yeah, yeah, it's grown tremendously somehow. Toby Jenkins: So, you graduate from Mounds High School in 19Michael James: 84. Toby Jenkins: Okay, now, just curious. How do you, what's your sexual orientation? How do you identify? Michael James: I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and pronouns? �9 Michael James: He, him. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you're in Mounds, Oklahoma, and you're in the choir, which is like gay preschool, but especially if you went to state college. When did you begin to be aware of your orientation and that you might be gay? Michael James: You know, we all experimented when we were going through puberty and stuff, but it really wasn't until after high school. Like I said earlier, I went into the -- I graduated high school weighing 275 pounds and then went straight into the military from there. So that's really pretty much all I know out of high school. So. Toby Jenkins: So in the military, you got away from Mounds, Oklahoma, and you're now in the military. And where did you go to basic and all? Michael James: I went to basic at Fort Dix, New Jersey, in the middle of wintertime. Toby Jenkins: Oh, mercy. Michael James: Literally bivouac and having to do push-ups where the snow went in and touched my cheek. Yeah, buried my nose. Toby Jenkins: And so then you were exposed to a bigger world. Were you aware that you were gay? I mean, had you? Michael James: I thought about it, I mean, but I didn't take action on it, because I really enjoyed being in the military, and I didn't want to screw it up. Dennis Neill: So when you were in high school, did you do the typical dating girls thing? Michael James: Yeah, yeah. Had a girl. Took her to the … Dennis Neill: You had no inclination then that there was anything different? Michael James: No. Yeah, you know. You guys know me now. I love everybody, OK? And that's just how I've always been. So yeah. Toby Jenkins: OK. So when did you acknowledge your orientation, and when did you develop an intimate relationship with someone? Michael James: Well, it was around 1989, ‘90-ish, OK? Maybe a little earlier, because I graduated high school, went directly from high school into the military. And then about eight months later, I was discharged. Toby Jenkins: Came back to Tulsa. Michael James: Yep. 25-inch waist, shaved head, baby blues, youth on my side, yes. And that's kind of when I kind of let go and said, “Here I am, world.” You know, so. Toby Jenkins: So did you go to gay bars, or did you? Michael James: At one point, I got into a really popular bar when I was underage on a $5 well night. But other than that, I didn't really. �10 Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what the bar was? Michael James: Yes, Zippers. Michael James: Zippers? OK. Yeah. So tell us about the clubs you went to in those days. Michael James: Let's see. Zippers was the only one I went to when I was underage. Everything else, I waited until after the fact. We would go hang out. There was an afterhours club called Exile. I don't know if you remember that off of 11th Street, I think it was. So we'd always go do their hang out. Toby Jenkins: So during those days, you were going to, that's primarily how you were connecting with gay people, was at the clubs. OK. Do you remember some of the bars that were popular in those days? Michael James: Yes. Renegades, Levi's 501, Concessions, Bamboo, Yellow Brick Road. Toby Jenkins: End Up? Michael James: That was before the End Up, wasn't it? Toby Jenkins: OK. Michael James: Yeah. Trying to think, there was one, I think. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever go to Tim's Playroom? Michael James: No, no. My ex performed there, though. Toby Jenkins: Taj Mahal? Michael James: No. Toby Jenkins: Caruso's? Michael James: No. Dennis Neill: A lot of those were probably closed, weren't they? Michael James: Yeah. Dennis Neill: So tell us a little more about Levi's. Michael James: Strokes. Toby Jenkins: Strokes. Dennis Neill: Oh, yeah. Tell us a little bit more about Levi's 501. Where was it located? Michael James: Levi's 501, if you are standing in front of Renegades, looking at the front door, OK, this street over here, I think is like 17th or something like that. If you went straight down that road, like two blocks on the right hand side on the corner, there was �11 a big industrial looking barn type thing. And that was where Levi's 501 was. At that point in time, I was dating Marsha LaRue. Toby Jenkins: Which is? Michael James: Marsha LaRue was a local female entertainer. Michael James: And she was I believe a Miss Gay Something at one point. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that was the drag name. Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: What was the … Michael James: Mark Lanier. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you were dating a title holder. Michael James: Yes, yes. I was the trophy husband, I guess. Toby Jenkins: And you went to the clubs, and that's how you connected. Michael James: Yeah. Tiki Nook. My dad actually went to that bar. Dennis Neill: And where was it located? Michael James: Tiki Nook was uh, corner of right there off of, so Camelot Hotel, Highway 44, there was a big hotel complex there, and it was upstairs. And then there was an after-hours bar downstairs called Buddies that Mike Treat ran, if I'm not mistaken, so. Toby Jenkins: Good lord, Dennis. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: These were gay bars? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Where was Strokes? Michael James: Strokes, wasn't it where Concessions was? Dennis Neill: Yes. Same place. Michael James: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And then also, MJ, about that time close to Levi's, now that you explain it, was a bar called Ma Bell's. You remember that one? It may have closed before then, but Ma Bell's was at 15th and Boulder. Michael James: I don't remember Ma Bell's. I do remember SRO, which was at 15th and Boulder. And it's now that Mexican place, and then it became … Oh, what was it? Dennis Neill: No, SRO was at 18th and Boulder. �12 Michael James: Okay. So no. I'm sorry. Dennis Neill: Okay. No. Toby Jenkins: What does SRO stand for? Michael James: Standing room only. Toby Jenkins: Okay, none of these bars have I heard of – in all the interviews and research. Dennis Neill: And I’d forgotten about Ma Bell’s. Michael James: Delasandro’s, you know Delasandro’s? Yeah, you know that connecting little area with the patio there. That used to be SRO. Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah. Dennis Neill: And that became Area 18. Michael James: That's right. That's, that's what I was. Yes, Area. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Michael James: Hazmat symbol. Toby Jenkins: All right. So it was the gay bars that you were connecting with? Okay, so during this time were you out to your family? Michael James: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: Everybody probably knew, 'cause … Toby Jenkins: You mentioned earlier that you were a hairdresser by profession. Michael James: Correct. So after I came back, you know, like I said, everybody's got bad times in their life. Got into a little drug issue and, yeah, got down on my luck and just had to rebuild myself back up. So my mother was married to a vet who was very closed-minded and did not want me around. So unfortunately during that time I didn't see a lot of my family. Toby Jenkins: He didn't want you around because of the drugs or … Michael James: Because of my sexuality. Toby Jenkins: So you had told your mother you were gay? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you remember that experience? �13 Michael James: I don't. I really don't remember coming out to my mother. The only really bad thing I was, you know letting her know that I was HIV positive, so, and that was really hard. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been in the late '80s, early '90s. And you, were you working at a hair salon, a commercial hair salon, or were you were your own? Michael James: I worked in a place called A Cut Above the Others owned by Woody – I cannot remember Woody's last name – but I started there as his apprentice and built my own clientele up, and then I got with my partner that kicked me to the curb when I found out I was HIV positive because he didn't like me working late nights. Of course, at that time we had also adopted a 5-year-old autistic child. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Didn’t know this. Michael James: Yes, so we were foster parents of this young man. Toby Jenkins: And how long did you have him? Michael James: We were together about five years, and two of that we had … Toby Jenkins: Had the child. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And did the child stay with him or? Michael James: Yes, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So, MJ, you adopted together as a couple? Michael James: It was, not legally. Yes, it was a foster program type thing. And really I don't know all the specifics of it because he worked in that area, so he knew all the bells and whistles, the ins and outs. Dennis Neill: So he was a state employee? Michael James: Not a state employee, okay, because at that point in time they were getting away from state employees. They were doing – Hissom (Memorial Center) was no longer; they were putting everybody out of Hissom, so there were a lot of developmentally disabled individuals moving into the community, and this person worked with those. Dennis Neill: I see. Toby Jenkins: So, you were a hairdresser, and we come up to the point where in 1992 you were diagnosed. When did you change careers, and, because I know you've been with American Airlines, how many years now? Michael James: I've been with American Airlines for 25. Toby Jenkins: 25 years, okay. So did you go from hairdressing to American Airlines, or was there... �14 Michael James: No, there was a period of time in there, okay, I mean, screw it, here I go, you know, party boy. So that's, yeah, and then I was about, what was it, I guess 35ish. Actually, it was before that. I was, oh, I was working in a bar downtown called The Underground. And what was the name of the bar that was next to that? Dennis Neill: The Dance Park. Michael James: Yes, Regina was there. Dennis Neill: I can't remember the name of it. It's very simple. Michael James: Yeah, yeah, I was working at The Underground, and this... Toby Jenkins: Well, you've already listed 12 bars that I have been to. Were there any straight bars in Tulsa in those days? Michael James: So actually there, so at the place where The End Up is, okay, you asked about End Up, there was actually, it was an Irish-named bar, I think it was called The Shamrock, and Marsha LaRue, Amanda Love, Trudy Tyler, oh, gosh, Bobby, Bobby, I cannot think of his name, Randy, yeah, they went there and did a show. Toby Jenkins: At the Shamrock? Michael James: At the Shamrock, yes, straight, I mean, and that was, yeah, but it was a great time. It was really neat. Dennis Neill: Just real briefly, back when you were diagnosed and you were living in Tulsa, how did you find, one, the medical care here to support you with your diagnosis and any of the support groups that you got associated with? Michael James: So my doctor referred me to Tulsa Cares, and I went through the program, and I actually, like a former director here, I utilized the system to get me through until I could take and provide for myself, you know, so. Dennis Neill: And the doctor, is it somebody you can name? Michael James: So Int to say his name was Dr. Lewis. Dennis Neill: So it wasn't one of the doctors that was? Michael James: No, it was nobody, not at that time, so, yeah. Dennis Neill: And you continued to get medical care through Dr. Lewis? Michael James: So I used the system up until I got my job with American. So as I was saying, I was working at Underground, and a gentleman would come in every day, a really nice gentleman, and we became friends. Well, he just happened to own a local computer software company, and his secretary was getting ready to retire, so he offered me that position. So during my downtime as a receptionist, I taught myself how to use the computer. I mean, I had keystrokes, the whole nine yards. I did that for seven years, and then I was hired March, went to work at American, January the 2nd, 2001, and then got hired on March 19th full-time. �15 Toby Jenkins: And American Airlines has been through multiple transitions, and you never lost your job? Michael James: This close. This close to 9/11. So back then it was a management/staff clerk type position, and now it's a union position, so I got time. Toby Jenkins: And so with American Airlines came insurance and a lot of resources for your personal life. Michael James: Yep. So at that point in time, you know, I had to jump ship. Toby Jenkins: Jump ship? Michael James: As far as I was making too much money for the Ryan White program at Tulsa Cares, so I had my own insurance and stuff, went to my own private care. I went to Dr. Haas. She was my doctor for forever. Toby Jenkins: Let's just take this opportunity for our viewers to understand this. Health care, medical insurance was a defining moment because prior to the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare as we call that, which decided you could not refuse treatment or you could not deny somebody based on a pre-existing condition. So that was a life-saving … So all of a sudden we had this surge of people who were able to return to the work force, because in those days, Michael, you went to work for American Airlines, you got insurance, your pre-existing illness didn't disqualify you. But did you always be afraid that if you ever lost your job with American Airlines that you would lose your health insurance? Because your health insurance didn't travel with you. Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: And so I just want our viewers to understand historically it was the difference in people who were able to work and have health insurance, but sometimes you would stick with the job you hated because you had health insurance and you didn't want to lose your health insurance, which people still do for other reasons, too. Okay, so you went to work at American Airlines. I notice that there's so many things that you've been involved in. I want to … You went to work for American Airlines. Were you out at work? Michael James: I was myself, okay? No matter what, I'm kind of a back, shied off guy, but I'm gonna be myself no matter what. And I mean everybody knew. Whenever I came out and joined the pride group and started our pride group out there, I didn't have to do any. I didn't have to come out, you know. Toby Jenkins: What year would that have been? Michael James: About ten years ago? Toby Jenkins: I thought longer than that. Michael James: No, it's been about … Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And this is an employee resource group? �16 Michael James: Employee business resource, the Pride Employee Business Resource group that started in 1984, I believe it was, right when the AIDS epidemic was in full swing and they wanted American Airlines to burn the blankets and pillows and everything after pride flights, yes. Yes, ma'am. And we formed a pride – or actually it was called GLEAAM back then. Yes, Gay Lesbian Employees of American Airlines, so. Toby Jenkins: Because of the discrimination and the stigma? Michael James: Correct. If you're gay, you got AIDS. Toby Jenkins: So did you have to revive the chapter here in Tulsa or did you have to start it? I mean, had they ever had … Michael James: We had to revive it. So, as you said, American’s been through a lot of stuff. At one point they really brought DEI to the forefront, and it really wasn't DEI back then, though. This was before all that came around. They had a chapter, but it was a downlow chapter. They would meet off base. You know, they wouldn’t let – you had to be part of the group to know where to meet. They were that afraid. Toby Jenkins: So you began to organize in 2016? Michael James: Yep, something like that. Then we started coming out. Toby Jenkins: Did you have the support of American Airlines corporate? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And HR personnel? Michael James: We had the entire Tulsa base behind us. Corporate down south was behind us. Of course, we had many other chapters that we had to share with. I was fortunate for the time that I was there to be able to be a proud $10,000 sponsorship for several years for our Pride. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so you said they had to share for other chapters. You mean other chapters at other cities in American Airlines? Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: Or other affinity groups at the …? Michael James: No, it's that there are different pride chapters everywhere throughout the world.. Toby Jenkins: So you would network with all them and get ideas? Michael James: Yes, yeah. We would go down and have meetings and stuff. Toby Jenkins: Now, when you, did a group of you decide, did you find out American Airlines had this out there and you said, I want to do this? Or did y'all begin to meet and say, hey, we need to organize here? �17 Michael James: So I found out there was a group, and then I really wanted to become more involved. And this was the time that they started pushing the employee business resource groups at that time. So I'm like, sure, I'll step up. So took it from there, got it ... Toby Jenkins: So in the regular workforce, so the people you worked with, the other employees who were not gay, were they aware this group had formed? And was there any, I mean, if you went, if people went to it, was there people, I just assume that meant they automatically knew they were sexual? Because I know you had several straight allies involved. Michael James: Yes, yes. And there's that stigma once again. Yes, if you're part of a queer club, a gay club, whatever, straight alliance, gay alliance club, you're automatically gay no matter what. That was the biggest issue that I had. Unfortunately, a lot of the guys and the ladies and all those in between would come up and say, I appreciate you wearing that shirt to work. I couldn't do it. But you were online and married and everything else is about, so. Toby Jenkins: Ah. Interesting. So y'all had T-shirts that you could wear in the workplace that were American Airlines. Michael James: American branded, uh-huh. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So that let other people know. Yes. When you were wearing that Tshirt, did people come up? Hey, I'm gay, and did they not know about the group and they started coming into the group? Michael James: Nope, nope. It was, you know, I never, yes, I got people who wanted to come join the group. Nobody who actually came out, okay? Believe it or not, I, … there were more straight allies joined during my time than anything, so, yeah. And I really, they're still there for me. Toby Jenkins: So previously, American Airlines had been one of our big corporate sponsors of Tulsa Pride back in the early 2000s, and then when the economic downturn happened, we lost State Farm, Cox Cable, and American Airlines, and then when you got involved, you brought them back to the table in a big way. Michael James: So wasn't this before that? Toby Jenkins: Yeah, it would have been, this would have been the early 2000s, and then, you know, 2007 when we had the big, 2007, 2008, all corporate support went away. I mean, that's why we moved Pride from the park to here. We couldn't afford to have it over there anymore. But you brought them back to the table. Yes. Yeah. So, and how did you, where did y'all jump in? I mean, you not only brought them back as a Pride sponsor. Michael James: I jumped in, I mean, you know, I knew the Equality Center. I had been to Prides before. I had never been on the other side of that. Toby Jenkins: The organizing. �18 Michael James: You're correct, so our group, hey, let's get some community, you know, going here. So we started volunteering through the Equality Center when we did drag bingos to raise funds for our Pride Festival in January through May, you know? Toby Jenkins: Every year, we would, about 10 years ago, we started doing Pride bingos here at the center. Dale Hogan helped start that, and companies would buy tables or individuals, and. Michael James: And then we would come out, we would take and serve them. We would be behind the bar. We would have people coming out to their tables, making sure that they were full and happy and having a great time, and then. Toby Jenkins: And y'all would wear your American Airlines shirt. Michael James: Yes, sir, yep, yep. Toby Jenkins: So that people knew we had our volunteers running drinks. It was, … Michael James: We even, I think we brought some bar cart out here at one time and pushed it around. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, some bar cart like you see on the flights. Michael James: Flight attendant carts. We then started working, okay, well, if we can do this, you know, I know that there are other corporations out there that have these groups, you know? So we all started working together, and that's when we started getting Blue Cross Blue Shield to come in and all that stuff. Toby Jenkins: PSO. Michael James: Right, yep, yep, yep. Toby Jenkins: One Gas. Michael James: Uh huh. Yep, we had volunteers out at the wazoo, and it was fabulous. It was fabulous. Bingos would sell out. Toby Jenkins: Both rooms. Michael James: Yes. Yes. Yes. Toby Jenkins: And it helped us pay for Pride. Michael James: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yes. So you created that, you recruited them and got them involved, and they were just wonderful volunteers. And then I know that you also, while you were at American Airlines, y’all began to do some diversity training, and you would invite us to come and do presentations. Michael James: Yes. If I recall, you'd come out and do how to be an ally. They did some youth training – abuse and stuff. There was also one, yes. �19 Toby Jenkins: I know we did a presentation on marriage equality. Didn't you serve on that panel? Mary Bishop-Baldwin: I don't recall. Toby Jenkins: But I know you had us come out and talk about why marriage mattered. Michael James: Yeah. Equality time. Yeah. Very well-attended events. Toby Jenkins: So you were helping with Pride Bingo, but then you also, I know American Airlines kind of stepped up with the Grateful Day Foundation and helped with their big fundraisers, too. Michael James: Correct. Yes. We would just do different portions of proceeds. I mean, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yes? Michael James: Yes. I don't know where else to go with that. Toby Jenkins: Another big spaghetti dinner every year, y'all. Michael James: So, no. We didn't really do, we did more for the Equality Center. Wasn't really more for Grateful Day. That was more of a personal thing on the Grateful Day side of it. So now, did my people take in, also come and volunteer at those events? Yes. I had my people from American and other organizations that did that as well. But yes, we go out and we volunteer for the awards dinner. Toby Jenkins: So tell us a little bit about how you got inspired to come up with the beverage carts, which were branded. We had an OkEq branded one, and then we had a, whatever the Pride logo was. Michael James: Yes, we did. There were two or three years that we were able to, our leadership donated flight attendant carts, and they would take and refurbish them. I would use the theme of that year's Pride to put – one year we did it on one side, I think. One side was Pride; one side was OKEQ. And then the next year, when we did the Tulsa to Oklahoma City theme, that wrapped all the way around the flight attendant cart. They would take exotic woods and carve them out to specific bottles, like crown bottles, glassware, ice bin, the whole lot, lights, remote control. We donated. Toby Jenkins: And we would sell these for $10,000. Michael James: Yes, at Gala. Toby Jenkins: People would go nuts. And I remember one year, he was with the chamber, and his partner was a flight attendant, and they bought that. His flight attendant partner asked, “Why in the world are you buying that?” He said, “Well, I thought it was neat,” and he said, “I have to deal with one of those all the time.” Gary Meadows and his partner bought one one year. �20 Michael James: And then, yeah, somebody bought one, and then we, they matched it but didn't want the cart or something like that. And then somebody donated on top of that. I mean, that year it was like $30,000. It was amazing. I mean, I was very proud. Toby Jenkins: And then American Airlines would sponsor a Gala table. Michael James: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: And they would sponsor Pride. Michael James: We'd sponsor bingos. Very, very great. Toby Jenkins: Because they would walk in, if I remember this correctly, you would keep a list of the people that volunteered, and then we would verify that, and then they, American Airlines, would match those volunteers? Or was that ConocoPhillips that I'm thinking of? Michael James: No, that’s ConocoPhillips. Dennis Neill: So, MJ, what is your thought about why that has changed so much? Where we lost all of these affinity groups, this corporate support. Toby Jenkins: Diversity. I mean, do you still have this at American Airlines? Michael James: So, it's tough to say. I don't know if we overdid things, you know? I mean, at the end of my tenure with the EBRG, our DEI group made me want to DIE. I mean, it was just shove it, you know. I get that, okay? But I don't, it's tough to say. Unfortunately, we had COVID that came around. Nobody wanted to be around anybody, and then you became that recluse, and how hard is it to get out of that, you know? So, and it's just a lot, it takes a lot to build back, and we're building back. Dennis Neill: You are building back? Michael James: We are building back. Dennis Neill: So the corporation isn't blocking you from building back? Michael James: No, they still have, they're called team member resource groups now. We no longer have a chapter in Tulsa, so we can't get sponsorship. However, I still have my management sponsor that we have a core group of people that still, to this day, we drive shuttles for Pride. They'll be the back of the thing so that people can walk behind and dance and just be themselves for Pride. So they, our local is still very involved, so. Toby Jenkins: So you're still in Pride, the Pride parade and all that? Michael James: Not since I've been bartending. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay, all right. I was thinking I’d seen American Airlines in the parade. Michael James: So yes, we, yes, like I said, they bring up the rear of the parade. We've got music on the back. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: So you're saying American is still in the parade? �21 Michael James: American is still, yes. Me, I'm behind the bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and when he says bar, he means he's running the bar for Pride. Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: For thousands of people pouring and overseeing all the volunteers with that. Okay, I want to talk about, a little bit about you were involved with Friend for a Friend and tell kind of what that is and what you. Michael James: So when I got diagnosed, resources are there. One of the resources was an organization called A Friend for a Friend, and it was started by Alice Bates. And if I'm not mistaken, it was in her son's memory. Excuse me, he was diagnosed with HIV, and he had a dog, and “Who's gonna care for that poor dog?” she thought. So she started A Friend for a Friend. I used their resources, and then I actually started volunteering for the organization. Toby Jenkins: And so Friend for a Friend provided pet food, veterinarian care, helped out financially if there was some kind of issues associated with someone living with HIV/AIDS and they didn't have the resources to care for their pets. Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill: In that, did you have a physical location, and did you have a paid staff person that ran the program, or is this all volunteers? Michael James: I was, to my knowledge, it was just all volunteers. And when I was delivering, we went and picked the dog food up from Alice's house. And then. Toby Jenkins: And you say as a client, you had benefited from it. Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you believed in it. Michael James: Yes. And then when Alice passed away, my best friend, Jason Eddingfield, was her right-hand person, and he took it over, and then we carried on. I was still volunteering with that. And unfortunately we lost all the other support when we lost Alice. So it had to go. Dennis Neill: So what year do you think that was? Michael James: It's only been, what, five years ago? Toby Jenkins: Less than five years. Dennis Neill: Because they had her service at Unity, right? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And that's kind of when things stopped. �22 Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Well, nobody could tell Alice no. She would ask, but. So did you help with the big fundraisers they'd have here at the center where Al Triggs would cook carrot cake cupcakes? Michael James: Yes, yes, that's correct, yes. We would have our like fall meals, and Al would make his infamous carrot cupcakes and, oh my gosh. But yes, we would volunteer with that for Grateful Day Foundation for that. Toby Jenkins: So, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So just to talk about that, you said that you had been a client at one time. Toby Jenkins: So you had a pet, and obviously you were struggling financially and on disability taking care of you or however the rhyme went. Were there times that you were afraid you were going to have to give up your pet because …? Michael James: That wouldn't happen. Toby Jenkins: It wasn’t going to happen. Michael James: No, that wasn't going to happen. No. No. Ride or die. Toby Jenkins: But it meant a lot to you to know that this resource was available for you. Michael James: It did. It meant a lot that it was there for me, able to keep my security while I didn’t have my mother. Dennis Neill: So were you dealing with symptoms at this period of time? Michael James: No, no. I was dealing with drug and mental issues at that time. Dennis Neill: But you were on disability? Michael James: No. Dennis Neill: Okay. Michael James: No, I was on the Ryan White program. Dennis Neill: Okay. Sorry. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And what did that provide for you? Michael James: That provided me, let's see here, doctors. Okay, that's where I – OSU. I got in on at OSU. Food, whatever. Toby Jenkins: Did they help with housing? Michael James: Housing, yes, and they helped with housing in the days. Toby Jenkins: Bus passes? �23 Dennis Neill: And this was all through the Tulsa Cares case worker? Michael James: Yes. Dennis Neill: And that's when they were on Admiral, I assume. Right? Michael James: Yes, correct. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever do anything with the Lambda Bowling League, which is the LGBT bowling league? Michael James: So, yes. Every year they would have a yearly bowling tournament. And when Grateful Day was around and Chuck Courtney, we would always go out to their big fundraiser and sell raffle tickets and donate our time there. So, got to meet lots of people, spread, you know, lots of people would ask about our group and stuff. And we'd sit down and tell them, and they’d … . Toby Jenkins: And in those days, the bowling league was huge. Michael James: Huge. I mean, it's at Sheridan Lanes. And, I mean, yeah, it's a good thing I didn't track my steps back then because... Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I'd say probably as many as 25 lanes. And there would be five to six team people in each. Michael James: Yep, and then you've got their people with them and so, yeah. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Once a week? Toby Jenkins: Yeah, every week. Michael James: Well, no, this was for their yearly bowling tournament, but yes, they would. Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah, they had a huge tournament. Oh, yeah, it'd be bigger than that, yeah. And so, that helped them fund Grateful Day Foundation. So, tell us a little about Chuck Courtney. You've mentioned him. Michael James: Chuck Courtney. Toby Jenkins: And how did you meet him? Michael James: Oh, Chuck Courtney and I met somewhere out between Mounds and Kiefer. Back in the '80s, the late '80s, after I came back from the military. Went our ways, and then somehow or another we ended up connecting somehow. And it was like, bam, bada bing, bada boom. I got involved with Grateful Day at that point in time, like I said. Wonderful man, very knowledgeable. Toby Jenkins: You were roommates for a while. Michael James: Yes, yep, and we lived back-to-back. So, great guy. Like I said, he was part of one of the founders of Grateful Day. Just so much about him, you know. �24 Toby Jenkins: Yeah, he's just like you – a workhorse. He just was a doer. Michael James: You ask him a question. If he didn't know he was going to dig until he found out, yeah. Needed the shirt off your back, yeah, he'd give it to you. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And you were both from Mounds. Michael James: He was from Kiefer. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Oh, he was from Kiefer. Michael James: Yep, and I was from Mounds. But remember, I had a Kiefer telephone number. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Yes, I understand that. Toby Jenkins: There's a legend here that people probably think is a legend, but we're going to tell the true story on the legend. So you and Chuck, and you all were involved, I guess, with Grateful Day Foundation, which eventually became Positively Grateful. But during that time, if I remember correctly, there was a group of people that wanted to do a documentary on HIV/AIDS in Tulsa, and I can’t remember the name of the people that were wanting to do that. And so they connected with Chuck, and Chuck was helping with that. Michael James: Chuck spearheaded that with them. Toby Jenkins: And so they wanted to do a story on Alice's Our House. She headed Our House, which was an HIV/AIDS resource house for people in the community and Friend for a Friend and all the work she had done. And during that time, there began to be questions about the AIDS quilts. And you all got involved in that. Michael James: Yes, yes. Chuck came to me one day and said, “Hey, break out the mystery machine. We're going to solve a mystery.” So, and he told me that the Center had received a call saying that they were missing quilts. We had help find them. Toby Jenkins: AIDS quilts. Michael James: AIDS quilts. Toby Jenkins: So when the Equality Center opened at this location at 621 East 4th Street, we were one of the few places in the United States that it was our permanent home that we were going to own. And it was very common for the NAMES project, which was based in Atlanta, they would allow LGBT community centers, resource centers, they would allow them to permanently display the quilts. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Certain panels. Toby Jenkins: Certain panels. Michael James: Right, and so there was an organization from there that was local. Toby Jenkins: Right. And we had a NAMES Project committee here, and so they reached out, and those individuals, who are no longer with us, got the quilts. All I know �25 is that from the day when we opened the building, we always had the AIDS quilts hanging on the wall, the original AIDS quilts that were Oklahoma specific, and we had at least four. So we had two, and we would take the others out for World AIDS Day. OSU sometimes would request them, sometimes Tulsa Care, All Souls would come and, you know. But we only had four that I knew of. Then when they decided to move the NAMES Project to the National AIDS Museum in San Francisco, they said all the AIDS quilts need to return to the NAMES project. And we went into this legal battle with them, because we kept saying we have the paperwork saying we could have these here on permanent display. And we kept telling – they said, you've got 10 quilts, and we said, we've got four. And so pick it up there. Michael James: So Chuck, being the guy he is, he picked it up and ran with it. I worked during the day, so I wasn't able to do a lot of stuff, but he would do a lot of the background work. We got to go into the Catholic archives and look in it. It was very, oh my gosh. Just the search. Go, go, go. Toby Jenkins: St. Joseph’s House. Michael James: Look, look, find this … . We'd go look. Finally, we found them at the 11th hour before, I can't remember what they said. They were going to charge us some outrageous amount. Toby Jenkins: They were going to sue us. Michael James: Yeah. And American Airlines helped pay cargo for those. Toby Jenkins: And you found them where? Michael James: We found them in... Toby Jenkins: Now, you checked multiple locations, Tulsa Cares, St. Jerome's. Michael James: St. Jerome's, OSU, because they had even borrowed it to hang from their, several locations. And we found them in the shed. And I can't remember – we said it. Toby Jenkins: Ray Chance. Michael James: Ray Chance's house. Still in a box. Very minimal damage, thank goodness. So we were able to bring them back here. Toby Jenkins: Weren't they buried under newspapers, like gay magazines? Michael James: Yeah, they were in a big. Yeah, they were buried, but there was a little bit of... Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How many were in the box? Michael James: Six. Toby Jenkins: Six. There were six. We had four, and they had six. Dennis Neill: What led you to Ray's location? �26 Michael James: So Chuck got a lead. Seriously. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: This should be a movie. Michael James: No, like I said, the mystery machine, you know? We were like, yeah, Scooby and Freddy or something. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: That’s amazing. Michael James: Brought them back here. And then at that point in time, we were able to do some high-resolution stuff, get the quilts back to the National Archives, and now we have local copies here. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Facsimiles, essentially. Full size. How did you do that? Michael James: With the talents of … Toby Jenkins: Jeremy Stevens and his partner Alan Mueggenberg, if I'm saying that right. Alan's company was able to create those, and so they paid for that, and then we were able to send them away. And we had a big ceremony that they would be, we told people, we had them on display and told people to come down and see them. Michael James: We had them right there in the Bruce Goff, World AIDS Day, if I'm not mistaken. Toby Jenkins: All of them, not just the... We've probably got video of that somewhere. And so I quit fighting with the National Names Project, and y'all paid to have them boxed up and mailed back. They're there, available. I mean, you can pull it up on their website. Yes. And we now have what are high-resolution facsimiles. Most people don't even realize they're not the original quilts. And we just recently found about one. We know we have four, but we found a third one. So I want to thank you and Chuck for doing that. That was a pretty historical event. Michael James: It was very interesting, learned a lot, and made me even want to get into it more so. Toby Jenkins: Now I know you were also involved in T.U.L.S.A., which is the Tulsa Uniform and Leather Seekers Association. Michael James: Correct. I was in that organization for a couple of years, started out as a pledge. How I got started was my friend, Richard Ziese, a former Mr. Tulsa Leather, and it was more of a fun thing to me. I didn't really fit the lifestyle, but the people were cool, you know, and it's just another form of drag, right? You put on your leathers and, you know, and they're an organization that go out and do fundraisers, okay, not only for themselves, but they'll join with other organizations and help fundraise for them as well. So they ended up disbanding as well, I think. Toby Jenkins: You used to meet here. Michael James: Yes, met here. �27 Toby Jenkins: You would have a room full of 30 or 40 people. Now, did you help with Richard when they did the leather archives? Michael James: Yes, that was when I was being initiated, and we were actually ribboncutting, and yeah, it was a very wonderful thing. Toby Jenkins: Thank you. So you know the details on the display case that has... Michael James: I know several of the people in there. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. That's helpful information. Because eventually it will move down here, right? And this area is going to be redone, and the library's ... Is it all right to say that? Dennis Neill: Uh huh. Toby Jenkins: It's going to be moved out there … Michael James: Oh, right on. Toby Jenkins: … to make it more accessible, and you know, we've got kind of a dead space. Used to, we had a computer lounge there, and we don't necessarily do that. And so the leather archives will eventually be here. Michael James: Right on. Okay, that's cool. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Along with other archives. Michael James: And then during that time... Toby Jenkins: So you and Richard were the ones that put all that together? Michael James: Yes, along with some of the other... Toby Jenkins: David Howell down in Florida, I think. Didn't he help some? Michael James: I think so. And then somewhere down the road, with Grateful Day, I got involved, not as a member, but working with the Imperial Court of all Oklahoma, as well. And we would, as the organization Grateful Day, we would go volunteer with them, help them raise funds. We were a... What am I looking for? At the end, they take in, they pay their, we're like a benefactor. We benefit the organization, so. And then, ever since then, I go every year for their coronation and volunteer as their bartender for their hospitality. Toby Jenkins: Tell our viewers a little bit what the Imperial Court is. Michael James: So, Imperial Court of All Oklahoma is, it's a court system all throughout the states. And they go around raising funds for different, they're another fundraising organization. That's really what I know about them. Toby Jenkins: So, they're modeled after the European court system. There's kings and queens and dukes and duchesses and princes and princesses and ... �28 Michael James: Tiaras. Toby Jenkins: We have Carolyn Wiley's interview. She was an empress. Michael James: She was, yes, like the main mama entry. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, yeah. So, we had her as part of our archives. Okay, I forgot about that. Anything else, Michael, that you, since you've just sit on your hands and you've not done anything for the last 15, anything else that you were involved in that we, well, you served on for years here on the advisory board. Michael James: Yes, I served for a couple years here on the advisory board. I volunteered, I've been a volunteer here for 10 years. I’ve managed the bar in the theater for three now. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And it's kind of seen a resurgence. Will you be helping this weekend with the Fringe Fest? Michael James: I'll be right here with two signature cocktails. Dennis Neill: So, MJ, of all of your activities that you participated in through these many years, what is kind of the high point that you can think of that has been so meaningful to you personally? Michael James: My high point is seeing our community benefit from some of the things that I can do. Whether it be getting them dog food, whether it be hanging with them for a weekend at a retreat, whether it be behind the bar making a cocktail. I just love our community. And that’s, yeah. Toby Jenkins: I know recently I've been able to attend a new thing that's happening in the Lynn Riggs Theater with Jason and Bill Nelson called Broadway Clubhouse, and that's capacity crowds. And are you enjoying, I know you just seem to be flying with the energy that you feed off of. Michael James: Oh my gosh. That's been an idea of Mr. Neill's for quite some time to bring something very similar to Marie's Crisis here to Tulsa. We started it. Unfortunately, that didn't work out, but we have two wonderful people who are in charge of it now, and I'll tell you what. I mean, being a former choir boy and just hearing all that, coming right, not at me, but just up, it's just the energy in the house and the energy that I feel when I'm here. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Show tunes. Michael James: And it's not just show tunes. I mean, come on, we do some Queen in there, too, right? Toby Jenkins: So we get together and we sing Broadway show tunes, and of course it'll be music that may have been featured in by musical artists or Disney shows. I mean, when you say Broadway shows, you don't realize how comprehensive and expansive that is. Michael James: Yeah, and jukebox jingles or something ... �29 Toby Jenkins: But I will tell you that the warmth and the friendliness and the excitement that you bring to those events, I know you're happiest when it's a packed house and people are enjoying themselves. Dennis Neill: MJ, you mentioned that when you were diagnosed and you lost that partner, because he couldn't deal, I guess, right, with your diagnosis. How about since then? Have you had some long-term relationships that have been meaningful to you? Michael James: Yes, Dale Hogan is really about the only other long-term relationship. It's been about seven years. We were together about seven years. We still remain friends. Sure wish I could get him to come back as Rainbow Granny, dang it. But... Toby Jenkins: So it can be a strain, a medical diagnosis for people, and some people just can't deal with it. They're not equipped. But that doesn't help somebody who's dealing with it. Yeah, I mean, and hopefully in the wellness retreats, y’all address some of that, probably. Michael James: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: Have some discussion groups. Toby Jenkins: Yes, we have. Michael James: For a, go ahead, I'm sorry. Michael James: We have panelists. We have a doctor that comes out. We have a... Toby Jenkins: Mental health provider. Michael James: Mental health. We have pharmacists, a pharmacologist that comes out. We even have, uh, wanding sessions. So like spirit, just wellness. You take wellness and go however. Toby Jenkins: You have chaplains sometimes. Michael James: Yeah, George is always there providing services. There's a labyrinth that takes you through a journey, you know. So very, yeah. Dennis Neill: So with the people you've been close to that have been dealing with HIV, and with all the new medications, have you still seen some people that we lose to the actual disease, or is it usually other complications? Michael James: It's always other complications, unfortunately. Dennis Neill: Do they have a relationship to their compromised systems? Michael James: Yeah, I could see some of them, but you know, not everybody's that. It's not that, you know, granted, okay, pneumonia. Okay, you can have pneumonia, but is it truly caused because of your HIV? You know, I mean, yeah. Dennis Neill: So we've seen a real sea change there, right, in the treatment and the longevity? �30 Michael James: Yeah, yes, yes. You know, I mean, I didn't think I would be here now, you know. I've, in the beginning, I had several medication changes, but I've only had probably two medication changes within the last 30 years, 25. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Do you attribute your longevity, the fact that you didn't die in those earlier days, to the timing of when you were diagnosed, because these drugs had come about then, or to what do you attribute this? Michael James: Have you met me? My hard head, okay? My stubbornness, my will to live, okay? I am not ready to die, okay? As y'all know, I got too much stuff to do. I almost said a bad word. Toby Jenkins: And obviously, you're not willing to sit on the sidelines. … World AIDS Day, have you ever participated in any of the World AIDS Day events? Michael James: World AIDS Day, we did with Grateful Day, and that we stuck, talked earlier, we took the quilts, we hung them from the ceiling in the Bruce Goff, and they kind of wrapped around, and people could walk through and see that. That's really about the only one that I, you know. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, we're trying to revive World AIDS Day. Michael James: Let's do it. Dennis Neill: It's going to be on Tuesday, this time, and we have been challenged by others, including you, to make sure that we have a real recognition of World AIDS Day, and so we hope that Mary and you and some others can kind of help lead this effort of pulling back the community that we used to have such a robust remembrance of World AIDS Day. Michael James: I'd be honored to, so. Toby Jenkins: Anything else from our interview panel? So usually we ask our guests, give you just a second to think about it, is there any message you want to give anybody who comes after you, maybe younger people or just people who review your interview, do you have a final message for them? Michael James: Man, amongst all the BS, don't lose yourself, and don't give in. Don't give in. Be that person to help make the world a better place. Toby Jenkins: It has been our distinct pleasure to interview Michael James, known in the community as MJ. Our interview panelists have been Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality; Mary Bishop Baldwin, the Marriage Equality Plaintiff, and Toby Jenkins. It is July 21st, 2026, and I believe it's now 101 degrees outside, but it's been a warm, warm experience. Thank you so much, Michael. Michael James: Thank you all. Look for me down in the bar. Remember, if the light's on, bring it on. If the light's off, back off. Dennis Neill: Ha, ha. Thank you, MJ. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Thank you, Michael. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Michael James Interview Subject The topic of the resource Michael James Oral History Project Interview from July 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael James, Toby Jenkins, Mary Bishop-Baldwin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 21, 2026; July 24, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this in-depth interview, Michael James, known as MJ in the community, shares his journey living with HIV for nearly 30 years, his activism, and his extensive involvement in LGBTQ+ advocacy, community service, and HIV awareness initiatives in Tulsa. Discover inspiring stories, community efforts, and the importance of resilience and support. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins and transcribed by Mary Bishop-Baldwin. 2026 activism advocacy AIDS Quilt AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV longterm survivors American Airlines coming out community fundraising Gay Bars healthcare HIV HIV Education HIV/AIDs interview Mary Bishop-Baldwin Michael James NAMES Project NAMES Project quilt Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pride Rainbow Library Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa Gay Bars video volunteers https://history.okeq.org/files/original/006a3e291caac95522a9871ee0e6dd1d.mp4 dda5c960f90098b8d9d20d55850689d7 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/887e542a2807ed6edc3a72e264cd9f06.pdf e9d6b264782cd101eac600767ffbce33 PDF Text Text 1 Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Jose Vega Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: May 22, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, May 25, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org �2 About Jose Vega: Summary Join us for an inspiring interview with José Emanuel Vega, a dedicated LGBTQ+ advocate from Tulsa, Oklahoma, now making a difference in California. He shares his powerful story of overcoming trauma, fighting for LGBTQ+ rights, serving as Program Director and Deputy Director at Oklahomans for Equality, and building community through advocacy, education, and leadership. Keywords LGBTQ+ advocacy, Tulsa, California, trauma, resilience, community building, public health, HIV prevention, leadership, immigration Key Topics José Vega's childhood and family background Experiences with child abuse and conversion therapy Journey of coming out and self-acceptance Advocacy for LGBTQ+ rights and immigrant communities Impact of hate crimes and community response Leadership in Oklahoma and California Innovative programs like rainbow crosswalks and chapters International perspectives on LGBTQ+ issues and human rights Future goals for community empowerment and education �3 Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 02:21 Childhood and Family Dynamics 12:23 Experiences with Conversion Therapy 21:36 Struggles with Identity and Survival 30:06 Education and Career Path 34:39 Professional Growth and Advocacy 38:00 Finding Stability and Community 44:52 Confronting Discrimination in Safe Spaces 50:52 Advocacy and Leadership in the LGBTQ Community 57:56 Reconnecting with Family and Personal Growth 01:05:05 Navigating Hate Crimes and Advocacy for Protection 01:09:10 Handling Hate Crimes and Community Safety 01:11:58 Advocacy and Activism in the LGBTQ Community 01:15:07 Building Support Networks and Chapters 01:20:07 International Perspectives on LGBTQ Rights 01:25:07 Navigating Divisive Issues in the LGBTQ Community 01:29:54 Career Growth and Community Impact 01:34:54 Education and Public Health Initiatives 01:40:03 Inspiring Future Generations of Activists Jose Vega Oral History Interview May 22, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, and welcome to Oklahomans for Equality. We're at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma. It is May 22nd, 2026. It's a beautiful Friday afternoon. We're here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library with a history project interview. And today, our special guest, we all call him Jose, but will you give us your name the way you say it? Jose Vega: Jose Emanuel Vega. Toby Jenkins: Very good. And Jose, where do you live presently? Jose Vega: Yeah, I currently live in Sacramento, California. �4 Toby Jenkins: Where were you born and where are you from? Jose Vega: Yeah, I'm originally from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Family is from Mexico, Michoacan, Uruapan. And I was born and raised in Oklahoma. And I moved away from Oklahoma in October 2020. But it'll always be home for me. Toby Jenkins: And so you moved, where were you working when you left Tulsa? Jose Vega: I was at Oklahomans for Equality, and then I had the opportunity to move to Sacramento, California for the Sacramento LGBT Community Center there and work as Director of Health Services and Programs. And it was in the middle of COVID. Toby Jenkins: Right, and you were the Deputy Director here at the Oklahomans for Equality. Jose Vega: Yes. Toby Jenkins: All right, so we're gonna have what we call, you've heard of bisexual interviews. This is a bicoastal interview. We're gonna have a West Coast gay who comes back to the heartland, and we're gonna hear Jose's story. So today, our interviewing panel is Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Mary Bishop-Baldwin, who works here with the archives, and also was the plaintiff in the marriage equality lawsuit that secured marriage for Oklahoma and a big section of the country, and I'm Toby Jenkins. Toby Jenkins: Jose, let's start with, like we do all of our interview people, I’d like to hear a little bit about, your childhood and kind of your experience. You were here in Oklahoma. Tell us a little bit about your family. Jose Vega: Yeah, I was born in 1992 and raised here, and my family, I'm a son of immigrants. My family is from Mexico. All my family lives here. They're either here in Tulsa or in Mexico. You know, the only two. I am the oldest of my dad's children. He remarried six times, so he's on his sixth marriage now, but growing up was only me and him with one woman and her kids, and then a revolving door and so forth, but it's always been me and him. Childhood hasn't been… I had a rough childhood with growing up with him in that aspect. I Can share, you know, my coming out story. So with that, now what I know now with my dad, I know that he gave what he could give to the best of his ability, but during that time, that's not how I saw it or how it was lived with. So, you know, my story, I came out at 15. I was a sophomore in high school, but before that, I had a lot of child abuse. My dad would come home and I knew that, now what I know is that he had bipolarism and he would beat me, lock me up in my room. Sometimes I'd have to skip meals. I would show up to school with bruises and they'd ask, what happened here? And I would always lie to protect my dad and my family. But it wasn'tToby Jenkins: Because you had your extended family. You had aunts and uncles and cousins and then you still were pretty connected to your grandmother, and she was still in Mexico at the time, right? Jose Vega: Yeah, yeah. As all migrant families, we're all very interconnected. �5 Toby Jenkins: No connection to your biological mother. Jose Vega: Not during that time. Not before the age of 18. Toby Jenkins: Ok. You were experiencing, he would be very violent and abusive, and you felt that you had to protect him and your family. Why did you feel like you needed to protect them rather than protect yourself? Just curious about that. Jose Vega: Well, what happens a lot in child abuse is that there will be a parent or family member say, don't say anything because it will break the family apart, and you don't want to risk that. And so that's what happened to me. I had aunts, stepmoms tell me, don't tell anybody, tell them that you fell down, that you hurt yourself, and that's kind of what I did, ended up doing. But it wasn't until I was 14 when I've had enough. And there was suicide in my history, and at that age of 14 is when I was going through physical abuse, mental abuse, and verbal abuse, and it was every day waking up that you're a piece of shit, you're a son of a bitch, worthless, and so you tell that to a child so much that they end up believing it. And at 14, that's what I believed. My own father doesn't love me or thinks of me this way, then I must be this. And so that's the first attempt. And I felt very depressed, and I remember his words telling me, you didn't take enough [pills]. And from that moment on, that's kind of where I took empowerment of who I was and kind of protect myself. But even before that, I asked myself, they knew I was gay for some reason, because growing up too, I would have my hand, little cap [limp] like this, you know, fallen, or my hand on my hip, and I would get beaten for having these mannerisms. And so at the age of 14 when that happened, it was the last beating I had. And I was about to turn 15, and he came in and he striked me, and I stood up for myself and I said, you know what? I can't do this anymore. You're not going to do this to me. And you talk about you'd rather have a thief as a son, or a rapist as a son, or somebody else as a son, or a drug dealer as a son, but not a homosexual or a faggot. And I said, I'm a faggot. And crying, I said that. And so he was like, get your stuff and get out. There will never be a faggot in my household. And at 15, I grabbed everything I could and I started packing my bags. And then he comes into the room and says, what are you doing? I was like, I'm packing my bags like you asked me to. He's like, but I paid for all of this. And so I left with the clothes on my back and a blanket. And I managed. I couch surfed through high school. I slept in the ditch next to Webster High School. That's kind of where I graduated. Slept in a ditch at a park. Couch surfed with friends; with anybody I could. I would shower in the gym at school. But I was a happy child because I wasn't getting beaten. I wasn't getting the abuse. Toby Jenkins: You didn't go to the school counselor and tell her you were homeless? You didn't go to foster agencies? Jose Vega: No, and the reason why is because at school, I became the student who would put newcomers together. And I loved it. I loved helping a new student come in, learn the system. I've always had that passion of helping folks. But I ended up �6 partnering and helping foster kids, foster youth. And they would share some of the stories that they were dealing with. And I knew that if I was caught, I would have to end up in a foster shelter or some system where I would be limited and not have the opportunities that I'm having now, that I was having at that time. I worked at Reasor’s [grocery store] as a sacker at the age of 15 after school. Once I turned 16, it became full-time. But I was very appreciative because it gave me money to pay for a cell phone, so I would go to the admissions office at school and I said, here's my new parent's number. And anytime they needed a parent's signature, I forged the signature. Anytime they would call, I would pretend to be the translator. Usually a lot of Latinos, youth, are the translators. We, a lot of youth, end up translating medical paperwork or school paperwork or even legal paperwork for their parents because they don't understand the language. I would translate, yeah, the teacher's saying this, and I would just make my own decisions. And I never got caught, and I was really good at school. I do appreciate Mary Waters, who was my high school counselor. She did look out for me. She helped me with getting enrolled with scholarships, the universities, and prepared me. And then I had a lesbian gym teacher. She would see that me walking down very early, like at six in the morning, walking down to the school. And she knew because she would leave the gym door open and the shower room open where we just knew… We looked at each other, and we just knew what was going on. But nobody ever said anything or reported anything. Also food-wise, too, they would help me cover for food and meals. But also during that time, as a 15, 16-year-old, working at Reasor’s and putting myself through high school, sex work was a thing too, that sometimes I needed to do to find a ride. To help me with wash clothes, laundry. And so that's part of my history too, where I needed to do certain things to get by. Toby Jenkins: I know at one point you talked about there was a period where your family decided they were going to send you to Mexico. One, so you could learn to speak Spanish the proper way, but also interact with your family, but to get you more connected to the church. So can you share with us a little bit about what that was like going through what we call today conversion therapy. I think it was called reparative therapy at that time. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? Jose Vega: So yeah, my aunt said that she could heal me, and there could be a cure for this. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: At what age? Jose Vega: I was 14 to 15. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Had you already left home? Jose Vega: No, this was before leaving home. So there was already this talk among my family that I was gay. There was already this talk, and they're like, well, we keep hearing his dad keep saying faggots this, faggot that, and that he doesn't want this at home and so forth. So maybe we can heal Joselito, that's what we call me. And so during the abuse too, it was a great getaway. �7 I can get away from my father from the abuse. So yeah. So I did a year in Mexico, my freshman year of high school, and they sent me to conversion therapy at a church, and it started with droplets and people just praying on me at church and telling me, you're going to go to hell if you don't change and so forth. But these droplets were black oil, black oil that I would take after every meal as soon as I woke up. If I had impure thoughts, I'd ingest, and every time I would throw up after a meal because it was covered with this coat… it was just black ooze. And the priest would say that that is the demon coming out of you. And I lost a lot of weight. And then I would remember to read from this little yellow book two hours before school. So I had to wake up early and be on my knees, not trying to lean, bend. So just be on your hard knees for two hours, praying from this little yellow book before and after. So early in the morning and then before bed. And then also a VHS tape of a priest that died and that God took him through hell and showed him how every sin is paid. So if you're a thief, this is how your sin is paid in hell. If you're a rapist or if you're a, whatever it may be every sin, but the one that I, that is embedded in my mind and I can see it so clearly because I would watch it for a whole year- was how homosexuality is paid and the priest can... I can describe it. It's not graphic, well, a little bit, but the priest would say: a hot metal rod is inserted through the anus, all through the body and out the throat at multiple times. And that's how homosexuality was paid in hell. And so having to watch this every day, read from this little yellow book and then be coated with this black oil stuff that I would ingest, I lost a lot of weight. I didn't even recognize myself. I was failing at school and then I was like: you know, I can't do this. I did it for nine months and I said, no, I can't do this anymore. And so that's kind of where I went back home and that's kind of when I stood up for myself with my dad. I said: you know what, I'd rather be gay, be where, I'd rather be homeless, gay and alone than having to endure this, this therapy or cure aspect, or even any abuse in the household. So I left. Toby Jenkins: Now, during this time when you're basically you don't have a permanent physical address, were you still in contact with your father and your aunts and uncles and cousins? Jose Vega: No, so all my family turned their back on me because I didn't finish the conversion therapy and I I wanted to… I just left home. So everybody turned their back on me. 15, 16 and um, nobody, nobody would reach out to me or talk to me. They knew where I was. They sometimes would see me at the grocery store or even see me walking on the street to my next destination. Toby Jenkins: Yet you made some friends, and those two are still your lifelong friends. Jose Vega: Yes, that's Martha and Jordan. Martha I met in high school and she knew so she was very, very sweet to me. She would bring me food from her home, just sometimes help cover lunch. And that's where it hurts, because when I needed somebody the most, she was there. She's my best friend. She's like the sister I never had. �8 Toby Jenkins: With all of that, dropped out of school and became a drug addict, right? Jose Vega: No. Toby Jenkins: What did you do? What happened? You graduated, didn’t you? Jose Vega: I graduated, I did so. So sophomore year of high school, I finished the year, but it became hard. It was hard because I was like I either need to quit school and get to work or find another alternative because I can't do this. I couldn't do this another two years of figuring it out how I was gonna get by. And I talked to Mary Waters, my high school counselor, and I said: I, I either need my GED, or graduate early or something. And so we looked at my grades and everything. She's like, Jose, you have great grades, you could jump a year. You could pay for summer school and do your junior year for that summer and then go straight into senior [year]. And I did. I did English Three that summer and came back to school as a senior. So I skipped my junior year. This is Pebbles [dog], she is three years old. Mary Waters helped me jump from sophomore straight to senior and I graduated early. And so I said, okay, I can do this one more year. So with that, one year is where I was able to move up along workwise at Reasor’s and stay in school and graduate early and then win scholarships. And then I moved to TCC, Tulsa Community College, where I went straight after high school. Mary Bishop – Baldwin: And did you get an apartment or were you still couch-surfing? Jose Vega: I was still couch-surfing during high school, but I was able to find something more stable and solid. I jumped a little bit ahead. There was a time where my aunt during that time- also senior high school- where she said: oh, Jose, God has touched my soul. And because she saw me as I was walking down the street, she says: God has touched my soul and I'm here to help you. I'm like, okay, yeah, I'll take any help. She's like: you can live with me, you can sleep on my couch, you'll have a shelter. And it was family. So I was like, oh, probably they finally came around. But she was charging me $300 to sleep on the couch, charging me for everything, well, you're using water, you're using gas and I have to pick you up and do this and do that. It started to get expensive and as a high school senior, I'm like I can't afford this. I went back to couch surfing with friends, where I didn't have to pay anything, and start saving up. And then finally I was able to save up to get A little $1,000 car and that's kind of where I started my TCC journey. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And did you sleep in your car? Jose Vega: There was a time where I slept in my car here and there, but I'm very grateful because Martha and my best friend, but I had met a boyfriend by that time, so I wasn't doing any more sex work or trying to get by. I met a boyfriend and we both moved in together and we had dual income and we were able to grow together. I was 18. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Can we go back to when you were in Mexico in the conversion therapy program? What were your personal beliefs about yourself at that time? Did you believe that homosexuality was a sin, or did you feel like you knew within yourself that what you were and what you were doing was not wrong? �9 Jose Vega: No, I did grow up thinking that it was something wrong. My family- but my family's very- was very religious, very Catholic, and I was so embedded in the Catholic Church that they did tell us homosexuality was a sin. And so very young, I knew that I was different. I knew that why do I find other boys attractive, or why do I find this taller man attractive? And I didn't say anything, but I would hear. And then also a lot of media. There was this talk show, a Mexican Latina talk show, where there was a transgender woman or somebody who dressed up as a woman, man who dressed up as a woman who came to the talk show, kind of like it was a Mexican Oprah. Her name was Christina, so she was a Mexican Oprah. And in this talk show I was probably 10 or 11 and I saw that they were talking about homosexuality and gay men and they felt so to me. I was like that's how I feel I can see that. But I knew it was a…this mentality of it's a sin, it's a sin, you're gonna go to hell was very embedded in me and that's why I hated myself. I was like no, I gotta do this conversion therapy. Probably my dad will love me this time. Probably my family will accept me. I don't want to be different. So my mentality there was that. But it wasn't till I was 14 and going on 15, where I tried to commit suicide and my dad said you didn't take enough. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Didn't take enough what? Jose Vega: Didn’t take enough medication. It was pills. I tried to do it by oral, but medication went to the hospital, my stomach got pumped, I had to eat charcoal. But when he said you didn't take enough, it was like a click, just something like a click where I'm like: why am I living for you or for anybody? No, I'm doing me, and very young, and I know that a lot like this is why I advocate for teen suicide and all and care, because- because not a lot of teens make it, or- and I don't know where I got the strength from- I know the strength that's saying I'm not doing it for anybody, but for myself, and that's why I broke the chains. I said I'm gay and you don't like it, and I hit the street afterwards. Toby Jenkins: So the sense of survival your own. You took it within yourself to take to survive. But you had to do it at a much younger age, while you're still a child yourself. You couldn't depend on any of them. So you decided, I'm gonna survive on my own terms, without any of your help. And if I lose you, I'll lose you. Jose Vega: And that's what happened. Toby Jenkins: And so you graduate from high school early, go to college. Were you in the Achieves program? Jose Vega: I was, Tulsa Achieves. Toby Jenkins: Now I remember a portion of your story, there was a time when y'all visited City Hall, you were a part of a youth program, which you later implemented under Mayor Bynum. Was that during high school or college? Jose Vega: That was during high school. My senior year of high school is when I applied for the Tulsa Mayor Youth Council. And it was run by Nick Doctor and his wife, what's her name again? Forgot her name, I'm blanking [Mana Tahaie]. �10 Nick Doctor started the program, the Tulsa Mayor's Youth Council, where youth would get involved with local politics and advocate. And I shared, like, we need to do something for our youth, our LGBTQ youth, and advocate more rights. And that's kind of where my passion for advocacy started growing. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What year would this have been? Jose Vega: This was 2009 to 2010. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but your earlier experience, you had been exposed to something like this that you… Jose Vega: Yeah, there is a footage, there's several interviews. In 2006, I was interviewed because there was a Latino career fair and advocacy to bring Latino men up into the workforce. So, every aspect of it, I enjoyed. Every aspect of supporting those who needed their voice heard, even in high school. Dennis Neill: Jose, during this period of time, until you finished TCC, did you experience bullying because of either your sexual orientation or your racial identity? Jose Vega: Oh, yes. Dennis Neill: And could you probe that a little bit more? And how the adults and other peers reacted to that? Did they help you address some of those issues? And can you explain a little bit about that background? Jose Vega: Yes, before I was 14, there was bullying for my skin tone. I would be called beaner, wetback, go back to where you're from, and also kind of, like, fruity. And I remember some parents at school saying, it looks like that kid has sugar in his tank. And I didn't understand it until now, but there was. But it wasn't until age 14, in high school, 15, 16, I would still get bullied, but you couldn't do anything to me. I didn't care about it. And I didn't care about it because if I didn't care about it from my own family or father, you're just a kid in school. And so that empowered me. Dennis Neill: How did the school authorities react to these issues that you were facing? Jose Vega: My high school counselor for the bullying aspect, she stood up for me. And I just…my friends, too. I remember Martha, my best friend, she stood up to these bullies, too. She was a tough cookie, and she would sometimes fight my fights. So she was, and what I love about it, because she was one year behind me. We would have graduated the same year, but because I jumped a year, her senior year, and I was in college, she started the first GSA at Webster High School. And she said, I did it for you because there's more gays…there's more LGBT people at school. And now that you're gone, I don't know who to protect. And that's who I'm gonna protect. She became…she was an ally. But during that time of high school to college, yeah, there was bullying, there was wordage, but you couldn't do anything to me because if I didn't accept it from my dad, I couldn't do anything. Dennis Neill: Did you experience that, even at TCC �11 Jose Vega: ? No, not at TCC. I didn't experience that at TCC. But workwise or anywhere else, growing up, yeah, you couldn't say anything to me. I didn't care for it. Toby Jenkins: But you did hear it. Jose Vega: I did hear it, but it didn't, it was likeToby Jenkins: So you're at TCC, you're on your own, you are in a relationship. Was it this time that you chose your career path? I mean, you had… tell us kind of some of the different places you worked, because I know you worked in, you worked in multiple places, agencies. Was it there that you developed your passion for public health? Jose Vega: Yes, so it was there. So I chose the dental hygienist program, but then I moved it to health administration, or just medical terminology, because I wanted to help our community and learn more about health care. My first official health care job was Saint Francis Hospital as a patient transporter on the weekends, and I would move patients from the emergency room all the way up to their room or from the room to the x-ray room and so forth. That was every weekend and it wasn't until I was translating, because there wasn't a translating system or somebody wasn't there to translate from English to Spanish. And I was translating for this patient and this doctor, this Orthodontist, sees me translating. And then he offers me a job and he's like: well, why don't you come work for me? I was like, well, I'm still in school and I enjoy doing this. And he's like: well, you'll work on the weekdays when you don't have school. And so, yeah, I worked for him for a while. He paid for me to go to get my dental x-ray certification, my dental sterilization equipment certification. And this was me during TCC, going through the dental hygienist. But then, after that role- that's when I switched work, switched to something else, to health care, but that was that's what I did for a while and then after that, and what made me do the switch was when I worked for Nova Health, which was the abortion clinic here in Oklahoma, and at that time it helped me understand more for women, understand more for also part of my religion, where we know that, where they were, in my Catholicism, where they say abortion is evil, is bad and so forth. But working there helped me understand what women go through, from assaults to their body, their choice. Everybody has a reason why they do what they want to do, and it helped me understand that these women need help as well, and I worked there for about 9 to 10 months. I learned a lot from that experience. I'm very proud to have helped those women who would come from the street to the clinic while protesters would chase them, show images, and I would go out there with umbrellas, with coats, and just give them access to health care when they needed it the most. I did that for a while too. Toby Jenkins: So TCC, living on your own with your partner or your boyfriend, did you complete your program at TCC? Jose Vega: I did, yes. It was medical terminology and a minor study like medical science, and then I went to University of Phoenix and finished it online because work was starting to pick up and I was like I need to switch online. I can't take off work or do it �12 in person and so forth. So I finished my degree online on health administration and hospital management and that's kind of where my health aspects started. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Is that your bachelor's degree? Jose Vega: That is my bachelor's- health administration, hospital management- and that's because I was a record technician and an administrative medical administrator at the Nova Health where I'm helping these women self-pay for these protocols and workflows and they didn't have an electronic medical record so logging all of their files. Toby Jenkins: Did you do any translation work? Jose Vega: I did do translation work too. I was able to do medical translation documentations- medical and legal. I did all of that and that's kind of where my career, through health aspects, started and that's why I graduated with that degree. Toby Jenkins: Somewhere in there you ended up the Tulsa World. So school, and you were still with this partner… Jose Vega: Yes. And then the ten months at the Nova Health Center is when the Tulsa World opportunity came. And well, hold on very shortly- sorry, backtrack- I worked at a medical imaging center- sorry, from Nova Health Center- for 10 months, then I worked at a medical imaging center and at this medical imaging center- it was a faith-based medical imaging center and I was let go after six or seven months, when they found out I was gay and they just said, Jose, we just we terminated, we just don't accept your lifestyle. And I was doing so good, I was translating their medical paperwork. I was translating their…I was helping with their records to electronic and I helped so many Spanish-speaking patients. I managed their schedule, but just because of who I was, I was let go and I was never back in the closet until that moment. And I remember going to the Tulsa World. I remember going to several interviews and they all asked what happened at your last job and I just said, just decided to move, just decided to do another role or something. It put me back in the closet. It wasn't till I was at the Tulsa World and I was interviewed by Susan Ellerbach and she asked me the same question that every interview asked me: what happened at your last job? And I broke down and I cried and I said I was let go for being gay and I've been holding this inside so much and in every interview they've asked me I've said for personal issues or something else, but I don't want to be hiding anymore. And she hugged me and she offered me the job right then and there, and that gave me the strength again. That gave me the I don't need to be, I don't need to be sure who I am anymore. I was very happy again because, she gave me the job. I was the newsroom assistant, I was her executive assistant and I enjoyed every moment and I helped with obituaries. I helped Mary and Sharon, everybody there at the Tulsa World. I loved it because it felt like I was working with, I was working for like…I think at that time the movie Devil Wears Prada had come out and I feel like Andy, you know just oh, yes, Susan, I'm ready to go, Susan, here's your coffee and so forth, but I loved it, but she was nothing like that, okay, �13 nothing. That's later on when we move into the center. But I, that was one of my favorite roles, yes. Dennis Neill: How long were you in that position? Jose Vega: Oh, that was about a year, some change. But during that time, I was the happiest I could have been because I was finally having a good, stable job. I wasn't ashamed of myself anymore. I had a boyfriend and had friends. But I wasn't active out in community. Toby Jenkins: Can I just ask you, were you having any kind of communication with family, your father? Jose Vega: No, I was still alone. Dennis Neill: When was it that you're at the Tulsa world. Jose Vega: 2012, 2013. Toby Jenkins: You are at the Tulsa World. And when you say you weren't active in the community, you mean the LGBTQ community. Jose Vega: Yeah, the LGBTQ community. And I say that because we would go to this club. We go to the clubs and you know, I was a young man… Toby Jenkins: Most of your friends and the community, the gay people, it was other Latino, Hispanic, immigrant community. Jose Vega: Yes. I had met in the Latino community, a lot of, a lot of LGBTQ, Latino, undocumented individuals- and that's who my community was- and a lot of Dreamers in Tulsa, and so I had my little posse and we would go out to the bars and clubs and I remember going out. They showed that you know, they didn't have documentationOklahoma documentation- but they had their IDs and passports from their country. We ended up going to a bar named Renegades. That's where we enjoyed going. And so we go, we show up, I give my Oklahoma ID and they give their passports and we're at the door and then they tell them: well, where's your Oklahoma ID? I'm like, what are you asking? This is an ID that tells you their age. And they're like: no, we need to show proof of their citizenship. And that's got started feeling like what are you doing? This is a real proof of ID. And they said: nope, we can't accept this and if you don't leave, we're gonna call immigration. That destroyed my friends. That happens a lot in the Latino community and document community is that they don't any kind of discrimination like that. They're just like: okay, okay, we're sorry, and they just leave. Toby Jenkins: It never occurs to them it might be illegal. Jose Vega: Exactly, and- and it still happens to today. �14 Toby Jenkins: Their first thought is: not my rights, treat me with respect, they just assume… Jose Vega: But they also don't want to cause trouble and they're afraid of immigration. Many of these people are running away from countries or neighborhoods or areas in their town or city where, for them, being gay, it's a death sentence, so they don't want to ruffle feathers. And I see that in my family too. When my stepmom or my dad or anybody was discriminated, they just bowed their heads and leave and just never came again. But I was so tired. I grew up like that and I was like how can a marginalized community marginalize another community. Toby Jenkins: And how can the gay community marginalize immigrants, undocumented individuals? Jose Vega: I thought this was a safe space, a safe place for all. This is why we have these safe places and especially like they're LGBTQ too. Doesn't matter where you're from or your skin color or your language, you're LGBT. I was very upset. I was very, very upset. This happened on a Friday night. I was very upset and I remember calling the LGBT Center the next day and leaving a voicemail and saying: how could somebody do this? Why would this happen? There needs to be some education on what IDs, identifications are acceptable, but also, how can this, how can this happen? And my friends were like Jose, just leave it, leave it. I'm like no, no, because I'm not that kind of person to leave anything like that. I didn't leave it when I was 15, 14 and Susan empowered me. So that happened during the weekend. I submitted a report, an incident report at the LGBT Center in Tulsa and through the helpline. And then that Monday I came in and I cried to Susan, I told her what happened that weekend and she was frustrated. She's like: how dare they do that to you too? She said, if they don't apologize by the end of the week, we'll run a front-page story on the Sunday newspaper. And I called the center and I said, hey, I really want to work this out. There needs to be an apology and there needs to be some education. But also I don't want any bad news for our community, but they need to apologize and they need to apologize to my community. So, Toby- and at that time it was Stewart the lawyer, Stewart Ashworth, and I think you both helped a lot in that aspect of legal and so forth- and so you, Toby, talked to the Renegade team and it wasn't till Thursday. They come around and we're like: okay, okay, we'll set up a meeting. And so we did. We met at Renegades. My friends didn't want to join. They're like no, no, we're just, we're never touching a foot there again. We're too scared. And I was like, okay, then I'm gonna represent you guys and I'm gonna represent all of those that came before us, because if they did it to you, they probably did it to other people and I don't want that ever to happen again. So I show up with Toby and this is kind of, I think, one of the first time we met, and it was a two-hour back and forth of no, we would never do that. We did not do that, this and �15 that. And we were very calm and collected and after two hours I just said: you know what? That's fine, I'm done here. You know what you did. Just know that you did it to the wrong person this time. And I'm going to be more active, and I'm going to create a committee and educate the bars and make sure that all of these LGBTQ places are safe places for everyone. And they ended up apologizing. And that Friday I came in, Susan, they apologized. Everything's good. And that's when I started getting more involved with the LGBT Center. Toby Jenkins: I think it was during that time, just while we're here, do you feel like racism and prejudice against immigrant communities is it an issue in the LGBTQ community? Jose Vega: I believe there may be some, but everybody has a personal experience. And as much as we've seen, I can speak on my behalf. Have I seen it? Yes. Have I spoken out towards it? Yes. Is there something we can all do about it? Yes. Because the LGBT community is so inclusive and intertwined that as long as you fall under the umbrella, you're part of the community, regardless of what your skin tone documentation is. But there is, so there's still a lot of education needed to happen. But why have inner fighting? Why not stick together instead? And that's kind of what stems my work with the LGBT Center and our DACA recipients. So in 2015... Toby Jenkins: So let's make sure of your... So you went through this experience and you said you wanted to get more involved. So we ask you to serve on our board of advisors and specifically create programming for immigrants, community, and Hispanic and Latino, Latinx individuals, basically becoming the liaison on this particular portion of our community to make the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center more inclusive and its programming more targeted towards our immigrant community and for specifically Hispanic Latino people. You had been asked to serve on that advisory committee. So that's kind of... You were on the board of advisors, so there we went on with that. And so you go ahead. Jose Vega: Yeah, so on the advisory board, I represented our Latino community, was more active. I was still involved with DACA students from TCC because during my time at TCC, I was involved with them. Even though I'm not a DACA recipient, I saw the need that they had. Toby Jenkins: And for our viewers, what does DACA stand for? Jose Vega: Dream Act... Deferred Action [Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals]. I just know that the group was called D-A-O-K, Deferred Action Oklahoma Group. This was for individuals, some immigrants who were raised here, not born here, but were raised here. They're practically citizens, right? They're paying taxes. They're working. They're trying to live the American dream. And so they were at TCC. I was very involved with them, helping them, supporting them. During my time here, I said, well, why don't we collaborate and bring them in? And I had the opportunity to bring their support group here and do some intertwined intersectionality education. The LGBT community to learn about Latino cultural, the homophobia within the Latino and the LGBT community to learn more about the Latino �16 backgrounds and support of their communities. So that's the first few active things I did. And then it wasn't until the opportunity to work... Toby Jenkins: Were you still with your boyfriend at this time? Jose Vega: Yes. Toby Jenkins: What was the next step? You're still working at the Tulsa World. Jose Vega: Yes. And then I had the opportunity to apply for a role, program coordinator at the LGBT Center. And it was a hard day because I came to Susan. I said, Susan, I'm thinking about applying. And she's like, Jose, do you really want to go? I was like, it's not that I want to go, but I really feel a calling. And she said, okay, that's a great place. So I went from the Tulsa World to the LGBT Center. But Susan was always supportive throughout that as well. I started as a program coordinator. And that's kind of where Toby and I were two partners in crime. Batman and Robin. Because he really took me under his wing. Gave me the professionalism, the guidance. He saw the Latino passion and fire that I had. Because I wanted to help those LGBTQ youth, LGBTQ Latinos, everybody under the LGBTQ umbrella, and to feel welcome. Because I saw the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center as the home that I didn't grow up or have. Or the home that I dreamed of. Because this center does mean a lot to me. So that's kind of where our role started here. And then we did a lot of programming. Dennis Neill: Jose, do you remember what year and how old you were when you joined? Jose Vega: 2015. Dennis Neill: And how old would you have been? Jose Vega: 22, 23. Dennis Neill: When you joined, how many staff were working here at the center? Jose Vega: Probably like a handful. Just three. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And I think it was him and we had one other and a janitor and me. Jose Vega: Very small. We managed a lot of programs. Toby Jenkins: The center was packed. It was. Jose Vega: We kept it packed. Toby Jenkins: So you came on board and I remember you had a very good aptitude for public policy and engagement of our elected officials. You just naturally took to that. I know that's when you reconvened the Mayor's Youth Commission. Jose Vega: Yeah. I love that you brought that point because the Mayor's Youth Council really prepared me to talk about local politics and city officials. Every step of my world and life has got me to the point where I am and prepared me for the next. During that time, working on programming, developing new programming and events, �17 collaborating, helping take over the Equality Business Alliance. I loved the Mayor's Youth Council so much and the impact that it had on me that I was like, how can I help our youth? How can we grow the next generation as well? So I brought back the Mayor's Youth Council and we had our first cohort and it was great. We did get a lot of GSA leaders from it. That's another part that I like. Toby Jenkins: Explain what GSA is. Jose Vega: Gay Straight Alliance. A lot of those students from that first cohort developed GSAs at their school. And then that's kind of where we also collaborated and partnered with the Tulsa Youth Services and they started developing GSAs and so forth. Toby Jenkins: Campfire. Jose Vega: Campfire. The Mayor's Youth Council was really impactful. We did that, I did that every year from 2015 all the way to my last year in 2020. Toby Jenkins: So you also, two things, I've got to make sure we talk about this. Hispanic Affairs Commission, you were appointed… Jose Vega: Yeah, I joined the Hispanic Affairs Commission. I was the youngest to be appointed, and I was there for about a year and a half, and then I became the chair, also the youngest to run the Hispanic Affairs Commission for the city of Tulsa. And I worked in collaboration with city officials, our Latino partners, our Hispanic businesses, and we really helped move forward a lot of issues that our Latino youth and families go through from school to neighborhood aspects. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you were appointed to the Mayor's Hispanic Affairs Commission. You started the Mayor's, and you were working with our allies that we work with here at the Equality Center. All of a sudden, I noticed you began to get some attention, and we began to convene and host Dream Act, would meet here. Sometimes we'd have 60 or 70 Hispanic young adults in the building. You were working with the Tulsa Metro Chamber on Mosaic and the Equality Business Alliance. Somewhere in there, some people began to notice that you could get the job done, and they started recognizing you, and you began to get some awards. Yeah. And the next thing I know, your dad is by your side, and your family's back in your life. Where in that time did you reconnect with your family? Jose Vega: It was at the age of 24 when my family came back around, and they had seen all these stories coming about. I was being reported on the news. Why are we at the Capitol today? We're here to fight for LGBTQ rights. Why are you doing this program? Because our Latino community needs access. And then my story was also being shared. Why are you fighting for homeless youth? Because I'm a lived experience of homeless youth. And my family came back around, and they apologized, and they asked for me to stop sharing my story. They said, Jose, we're sorry. We really want to try to reconnect but stop sharing your story. You know, people are looking at us, and they were seeing what they had done. And I said, you're more than welcome to come back into my life, but you cannot stop me from sharing my story. Because even today, it is still happening, and people need to know that there's a safe place, safe home. There �18 are programs out here. There are people fighting for you, so they need to know. And they said, okay. It was like, perfect. And so I'm not one to hold grudges, so we just forgave, and we learned to continue on. And my dad is by my side now. He starts showing up at Pride. He showed up one time, and I'm in tears. I'm like, oh, I thought you would never come around. And so he comes back. He comes around. I win my first award, 30 Under 30, and we had to go to Oklahoma City, and he's very proud of me. And then I win the Gracias Latino Award, and then I win the Tulsa Young Professionals, because I got involved with the Tulsa Young Professionals. And then the last one I won before leaving was the Leadership Oklahoma Award. Toby Jenkins: So you got involved with Leadership Oklahoma. They recruited you, and then you went through that, and they wanted you to create a Latino. .. Jose Vega: No, they had a Latino one already. Toby Jenkins: So you went through that cohort. Toby Jenkins: And then you said, why is there not a LGBT one? Jose Vega: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Oh, gosh, this is good. So you created that program through Leadership Tulsa. Jose Vega: Yeah, so I did the Hispanic one, and it was so impactful. It really prepared me for the Hispanic Affairs. It really helped me get the tools that I needed for my Latino community. It made me great contacts too. And I saw how impactful it was. I was like, there needs to be a specific one for our LGBTQ communities. And in collaboration with them… Toby Jenkins: You almost had to force them to do it, didn't you? They were pretty resistant. Jose Vega: There was a little bit of resistance, but we showed them from the LGBT Center. We showed our data. We showed our community people that they needed it and wanted it. Toby Jenkins: And who funded that program? Jose Vega: The Schusterman Family Foundation. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Jose Vega: And so we had two programs. It was called Lead Together. Toby Jenkins: And if I'm not mistaken, that became the first LGBTQ specific cohort in the entire nation in the leadership Oklahoma Leadership program that was networked across the country was the first one, yeah, where somebody had said, oh, we need to have one that raises up LGBT young professionals to serve nonprofits- okay. �19 Jose Vega: And we did get many people from that cohort joined the center, from volunteering to… Toby Jenkins: Went on to become on, get on the staff and serve on the board, yeah, okay. So you mentioned Tulsa Young Professionals. I just want to say how profound I am that you included that your family reconnected and that you forgave them. That is an incredible testament of your personality and your character. You were connected to Tulsa Young Professionals and you got it in your head that we needed to have a rainbow crosswalk. So with Tulsa young professionals and the mayor's office, Mayor Bynum and the City Council tell us a little bit about our rainbow crosswalks in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Jose Vega: As I was involved with Tulsa Young Professionals with the diversity team and we always did pride together and then they did one year the chalk, they did a crosswalk chalk that year and we saw how impactful it was for the community. They loved it. I would scroll on Facebook and see so many photos, and then you could see it from a mile, from down the street, on 4th Street, as you're crossing over the bridge you could see it and to me I was like we need this permanent. Tulsa Young Professionals had a grant to make Tulsa better and to what can we improve in Tulsa, and so forth. So I had applied for a crosswalk to get that funded and we won. It got approved. But we were getting pushback from City Hall. No, that is not traffic regulations, and so forth. So we got a lot of pushback and I I encouraged city officials like please help me, we need to write a letter, we need to do this. So this is where more advocacy came in. But at the end of the day, they said no. Toby Jenkins: Let's stop right there. The reason the answer is no is because crosswalks must comply with federal regulation, which also includes ADA specific. They have to be a certain color, they have to be a certain width, they have to be at certain areas. So we were mad about this. Jose Vega: We showed data from all this…from Dallas, Miami, New York, Sacramento has one. So all of these had them. So I'm like: what are you talking about? Just because it's federal, we as city officials we can decide what we want in our city and town, but no, I understand the regulations. So as I'm talking with Tulsa Young Professionals, they're like: well, Jose, what else can we do? And as I'm thinking and thinking and thinking, I was like: then we shall take over the street and called it Pride Street then. And that's when 4th Street became Pride Street and we got these pride signs and that's what, right down the center, you know? Toby Jenkins: Good, now, the reason I want to specifically talk about this is right now, while we're having this interview, all across the United States, cities are being forced to remove their rainbow crosswalks because of pushback from the Trump administration and federal regulations, and state after state governors have said we're removing them in their own homophobia and transphobia. But yet, for some reason, Tulsa's safe because we have street signs because street signs are controlled- a part of municipal code, not federal code. The lesson I want this interview is: ask big and grab what you can get. �20 Jose Vega: Yeah, well, how I word that is: shoot for the moon and if you land among the stars. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. I've got a bunch of other things. Any questions, Mr. Neill? Dennis Neill: Let's talk about your growth within OkEq, your changing positions, and then also we want to touch on your hate crime or hate crimes during your experience as an adult. Jose Vega: I started as program coordinator, and then we've had such great success and growth. I had the opportunity to get a promotion and become program director. And then deputy director. I ran pride. I loved it, every moment of it. We fundraised for pride. I loved the Gala, all of those aspects. And then I was learning everything from Toby, and he shared with me on how we need to be more active within the Capitol. Take students, take youth out there, their voices, write letters. We did a lot of letter campaigns and so forth, that I said, Toby, how can I learn more and take a more leadership role? And I had the opportunity to become deputy director, and I helped make executive decisions within the organization to make visible, to make our spot and space even more visible in different areas. So, that's when we were very active in that portion, you know. Toby Jenkins: Tell us a bit about the hate crime incident that you had happen. Jose Vega: There was a moment where I, it was during flu season, because I was so sick, and I go to Walgreens, and I go pick up some medication as I'm waiting in line… I have this Revolution shirt that I love, because, you know, it is, we were trying to take back what the state is taking away from us. And even to today, they're taking even more away from us. So, that Revolution shirt, I still have it. It doesn't fit me anymore, you know, it got a little thicker. I know, the Revolution continues. I remember working on that video, too. Pride t-shirt, the pride rainbow flag. And as I'm waiting in line, this man just turns around and calls me fucking Mexican faggot. And he starts getting pushy and trying to cause a reaction from me. And I'm like, just please leave me alone. I'm just trying to check out. He's just picking and picking and picking at me, and I ignore it. And that's kind of what we do with, we encourage our constituents, that if they're being bullied or targeted, do not... they're just trying to get a reaction from you. Try to get somewhere safe. So, the safe place where I was trying to run to, because nobody was doing anything, was to my car. So, as this person's just nitpicking, picking me, and calling me names, homophobic slurs and racial slurs in the Walgreens drugstore. I walk out, continues. It's not till I start unlocking my car that where he attacks me. He starts hitting me inside the car, and I'm pushing him out. Grab the door, lock it. He starts spitting and then breaking my mirror. But just the adrenaline, the fear of, I could probably, something really bad could be happening to me right now. And we've seen, during our time here at the center, a lot of lives lost in this way. From getting attacked, assaulted, just for being who you are. So, I thought that was my time. �21 And he left. We called the cops, and something that struck me was, the only reason we will consider this a hate crime is because they did racial slurs. I was like, what about the homophobic slurs? He called me faggot and started spitting at me, assaulting me. He's like, that's not a protected class. But because he said, Mexican and go back to Mexico and all that, that's how we'll classify this as a hate crime. And to me, I was like, how is only half of who I am protected? No. And that's kind of where we started to do more advocacy from municipal to capitol. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So how did the cops handle the issue? Professionally, or were you disappointed in the response by them and any other legal authorities? Jose Vega: No, I was not. I wasn't disappointed at all. They really handled it well. Dennis Neill: I believe he got arrested, didn’t he? Jose Vega: They did get caught. Years later on. Years later. But the thing is that they kept that case open until years later on he was associated with that hate crime. Dennis Neill: And with regard to that terrible incident that you experienced, you were very visible with OkEq these five years that you were there. How about other incidents of both the good and the bad? E-mails, calls, threatening you, threatening friends. Did you experience any of that or was this kind of a one-off, this one incident? Jose Vega: No, no…Working at the center, you are visible as a target. Toby and I would share a lot of fearful moments. You know, when the bullets came through the center, when there was a drive-by, that was a scary time. What if that happened while we were here? I'm very glad that we had bullet resistant… Toby Jenkins: We installed that later. Jose Vega: But that's scary. And then also my car being vandalized multiple times. Dennis Neill: While parked here? Jose Vega: Not while parked here. But parked at home. Slashed tires. Toby Jenkins: I think that happened at a gay bar. Jose Vega: At a gay bar. I knew the risk that it came. But I also knew the reward of what we needed to do. Toby Jenkins: One of the things that I want to make sure we include in this portion of the story, we're talking about the incident, and I don't remember the exact date, when the center, someone shot up the front windows and the front door. Dennis Neill: March 6, 2017. There's the door [leading into the archives]. Toby Jenkins: Olivia caught her ride at work that morning, and she got here at 8 o'clock and called it in the police. But what was hanging up on the porch? What was hanging on the sign? Jose Vega: Immigrants are welcome here. �22 Toby Jenkins: So we never know for sure if they targeted us because we were the LGBTQ center or that we were advocating it's a safe place for the immigrant community. Jose Vega: Regardless of which one it was, it's the Equality Center. The Equality Center is for everyone. Race, orientation, gender identity, or documentation. Toby Jenkins: We were doing a lot of work at the Capitol, and we would take how many students to the Capitol? Jose Vega: Like two busloads? I think one time it was. Toby Jenkins: We'd take over 100 kids, and you would march them through the Capitol. And legislators would just run for cover. They wouldn't have to talk to us. Jose Vega: I do remember us chasing one down. I was like, no, no, no. Where are you going? Toby Jenkins: Now, I can't remember. Were you with us when we were up there and they sent out the memo that there's cross-dressers in the bathroom? See if you can tell a little bit about that story. Jose Vega: Oh, yes. So we all arrive, and every youth is like, oh, where do we goto the restrooms? We show them where the restrooms are. Then, I think a little before, after lunch, they send a memo saying there's cross-dressers in the building. Watch out. They're using the restrooms. And do not use the restrooms. Go use these private ones. And it was offensive for the youth. Toby Jenkins: And that's the image I will forever remember. Jose and a bunch of young people chasing the Lieutenant Governor across the rotunda of the Capitol, demanding an answer. Jose Vega: They were avoiding us. Toby Jenkins: And, of course, by the time we got on the bus to come home, when we arrived in Tulsa, the streets were full of TV cameras and news sources. And within two days, one of the persons who's running for governor had issued an apology to the community. Jose Vega: They saw the mistake they made, yeah. And they apologized. Toby Jenkins: Now, how did you feel about that situation? Did you feel we're not putting up with it? Jose Vega: What was going through my mind during that time? Yeah. One, I love the youth taking charge. And we put them in front of the cameras. They expressed their feelings. So, to me, it was a proud moment to see the youth come together and see the change that they could create. And, yes, we accept apologies. But there's a lot more work needing to be done. So, thank you for the apology. Now let's create that apology into policies. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So it was during this time that we kept getting phone calls on the helpline from all across the country or all across the state. So we were getting as many �23 phone calls locally on the helpline as we were from rural communities all across the state, and so you were instrumental in rolling out our chapter establishment. Jose Vega: But part of that I want to share, the story of when you and I were working late one night, because that that that was what ignited my fire even more. It's like you already have a fire and just pour more gas into it. It was when Toby and I were working late, and there was many nights we worked late. You know, prepare the next thing. Toby Jenkins: It was like midnight. Jose Vega: Midnight, it was around midnight and as we're walking out of the center, on our right corner, on the right, I see we see a young man with his bare footed, bleeding and crying, and we look over. They share their name and they said: I just turned 18, and my family has kicked me out for being gay. And I walked from the [Oklahoma] Panhandle to the center because I saw on the internet that there was this place, and I just got here walking from the Panhandle to me and then we bring him in, we bring them in, we give them water, and to me I'm like we need to do something for all the LGBT people in Oklahoma. We need to let them know that there's something here but there's also made something in their hometown, because seeing that, we needed to do something. So that's kind of where we started doing these chapters- OkEq chapters- and we had one in Norman, in Stillwater, McAllister, Bartlesville. Toby Jenkins: We traveled all over the state. We went to Altus, Oklahoma. Jose Vega: Yeah, we wanted to make sure that every Okla queer, I think, and we came up with a logo too for that too. They knew that there was a home here. Toby Jenkins: And that they could organize in their own communities. You were there when we organized the chapter in McAllister, Oklahoma and on January 1st, 2020, Dustin Parker, who was one of the members- founding members- of our chapter in McAllister, Oklahoma, he was murdered and they just recently arrested his murderer. Yeah, and do you remember traveling…I think you traveled with Dennis down there for the memorial service, where a thousand McAllister folks were standing in a field outside of their little gay bar across from the prison, behind the prison cemetery. Jose Vega: Dustin was a staple in his community and he really showed what activism looks like- grassroots- and shared his story. Toby Jenkins: I can remember that night. What was your thoughts? While we're standing in that field with Dennis, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, in McAllister, Oklahoma, to see how that city was grieving and also showing their support for LGBTQ people, did you have thoughts? Jose Vega: Yeah, as much as there's much more love in Oklahoma than hate, there's much more love, and love trumps all hate that there's out there. So seeing this small town come together for a community member- they didn't care about their gender, their identity, they came together for somebody who helps the community- come together show me that we need to do more for our state. We need to help our communities. They �24 made the- it's a small percentage- that are against LGBTQ community members. Because Oklahoma is about love. Our community is about care and support. That's why we have that southern love and charm. And we, I love that you always said, we're the prairie gays, you know. We have our lesbians chopping wood and helping build homes. And our gays churning butter to make sure we are fed and taken care of. And I see that, that's what we are. And all of those quotes stay with me. And I do share it still in California. And I was like, and in California they always tell me, oh that's a flyover state, who's all there? And I was like, there's prairie gays there. Our lesbians building homes, chopping wood, and our gays churning butter. That's my stomping ground. Toby Jenkins: That's funny. Let's go ahead and catch our viewers up. Because the pandemic comes. And then you eventually made some career choices. Before we talk about you going to do missionary work among the heathen in California... we sent you as a home missionary to California. You also, through collaboration with our foundations, created some programs that allowed you to travel nationally, internationally, and see LGBTQ people around the world. Jose Vega: Yeah, the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Schusterman Family Foundation, they support our LGBT community. They supported our cause. They allowed us to go to Creating Change, which is a conference that helped us prepare, you know, and learn what other people are doing and create change in Oklahoma. I did have the opportunity to join the Schusterman Reality Program. Toby Jenkins: Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Foundation Reality Program. Jose Vega: Reality Program. And their first one was on LGBTQ pride. Bringing LGBTQ leaders from across the country and going to go to Israel and get to see the great work that they're doing on LGBTQ aspects. And they have an LGBTQ elected official helping. And it was a beautiful experience getting to hear stories, sharing their cause, what they're doing to advance, and then get to see Tel Aviv Pride, which is one of the largest prides, come together and share that it's one love that we're trying to build here. Toby Jenkins: In your experience with these opportunities that you were allowed to travel internationally, because you always went to represent our center at International Pride, InterPride. So you went to several of those international conferences. Your thoughts when you've traveled internationally and all the divisive things humanity has that make us hate each other and... Jose Vega: We're fighting ourselves. Our inner selves. Each other. To me, that's not what the cause is. We have enough people that are not part of our community fighting us. Why should we fight among ourselves? We should focus our energy elsewhere. Toby Jenkins: If our panelists have anything else, jump in here. You decided to go to California. Jose Vega: But during my time at Oklahomans for Equality, I've had many opportunities. I have great opportunities to travel, to see things, to create change. I love every moment of my life that during my time here, it's become maybe the man I am today. But there was one thing where I've never experienced living somewhere else. And I felt in my heart of hearts that I need to have that experience. I've traveled, I've seen, I've done, but I've �25 never lived anywhere else. And I'm the first to come out as gay in my family. First to graduate high school. First to get a bachelor's, and now to get a master's. In 2019, I told Toby, I want to experience living somewhere else. I may come back, but I need to have that experience. And so I started sending my resume everywhere. And COVID came, February, January, offers started getting pulled out. We didn't know what was happening. And I had two offers, the LGBT Community Center in Albany, New York, and the LGBT Community Center in Sacramento. And then in August, I made the decision and I got the Sacramento offer, moved there in October, and I've been there ever since. I've had multiple opportunities out there too. So from the LGBT Center, I focused on COVID. Our LGBT community members didn't have access to COVID testing, vaccines, and so we were focused on that. But also, HIV rates were going up because people were not getting tested. But also, we're now staying six feet apart and we're still having sex. And so we focused on at-home HIV test kits. We opened a new LGBT Center out there as well. Toby Jenkins: Medical Center. Jose Vega: Yeah. And so I helped facilitate that conversation. So everything that I did in Oklahoma prepared me for that because we opened a new center. We created little chapters. I helped with pride. I was there for two years. And then I had the opportunity to think and see, you know what, I think I'm ready to come back home. And there was a moment where I came home and wanted to apply and applied for the role to run the center. And at that time, you had already retired. Unfortunately, it wasn't in the cards. And I decided to go back. I said, okay. So I went back. Dennis Neill: And just from perspective, this is June of 2022, correct? Jose Vega: Yeah. June of 2022. That was the last pride year and we talked about it. And I said, Toby, I loved everything I learned out here. I saw what programs and policies and things that we could do. I think I'm ready to take the reins. Due to other factors, it didn't happen. But I had the opportunity to go back to California and work with the Office of AIDS, the state public health department and work with the Office of AIDS. And I worked there for two years and a half helping across the state to develop programs to enhance their HIV testing, education, and capacity building. Toby Jenkins: You also got involved in their public broadcasting system. You want to talk a little bit about that. Jose Vega: Yeah. So my master's is in public health promotion and education. And I'm a firm believer that education is key to getting community involved. And so I started working with PBS and NPR and access channels to build educational programming in English and Spanish. And so we built, we did, it's called County Edition. And our first episode was on sexual health. And it was such a big success that they were like, let's replicate it. But now it's completely in Spanish. And it consists of a host, of a doctor out in the public getting information. �26 And from that, I collected data. And it's shocking that so many people still believe that you can get an STI from sitting on a public toilet. And it's 2026 now and people still believe that. So to me, education still needs to continue growing as STI and HIV rates continue to go up. And all of these fund cuts that are happening at a federal level where HIV prevention and STI prevention are getting pulled out, we're going to see a high rise on HIV infections and even co-infections with a rise of syphilis. And that's going to hurt our mothers. And I say mothers by childbirth because the rate of congenital syphilis has been skyrocketing. And those are little young ones. Toby Jenkins: And so you talk a bit about your master's. What was your master's on? You just completed it. That's why we're getting this interview. Jose has come home for a family celebration to celebrate his graduation from his master's program. So he wanted Pebbles to see what Oklahoma looked like. So he brought his companion dog. Talk a little bit about your master's work there. Jose Vega: Yeah, so my it was a focus on HIV education within Latino communities and what I love about it is the program that we've developed is PrEP 15 years ago next year It'll be 15 years where PrEP was the first medication to be approved to Prevent HIV and I'll share a little bit of my work about PrEP here in Oklahoma. As a gay young man I know that I was even more highly potential exposure to HIV, so I started advocating for PrEP and talking about PrEP that I wanted to be on PrEP. Many doctors here in California would say I would come in to the office and say hey, I want to get on PrEP medication What is that? Mary Bishop-Baldwin: You mean here in Oklahoma? Jose Vega: Here in Oklahoma, so this was before…taking you back into back into time during my time here at the LGBT Center where I was like, I want to get on PrEP Many doctors said no, I don't feel comfortable with that. I don't understand it. I don't treat AIDS patients. And I said well, this is before before I get HIV and this is to prevent it. Nope, I don't accept your lifestyle It was constantly and it was during my time here at the center because I had Community Care insurance at that time and no doctor would accept me or see me for PrEP. There was many times where I needed PrEP postexposure so having access to that too. That's kind of what drove my master's degree and advocate for that because that still happens in California even totoday. As an Oklahoman, I would think that Oh, California is more liberal, more open, more accepting. There's more access. The honest truth is it's not, there's still a lot a lot to do. My program and proposal and project development was - PrEP was approved in 2016-2015 15 years ago. So let's give PrEP a Quinceanera, It'll bring Latino communities together. It'll bring trans communities together. It'll bring youth together because as a Latino man, there's I was in about 15 Quinceaneras growing up. My cousin. Toby Jenkins: And a Quinceanera is… Jose Vega: Quinceanera is a coming-of-age for a young woman that they are from childhood into womanhood at 15 and my cousins did one. There's gonna be one tomorrow for my nieces. So I was like, let's give PrEP a Quinceanera. And so we're �27 building this program in California in the Central Valley where every Latino will be like, why are they giving this medication a Quinceanera? I had one like we're about to do one for my daughter. It starts the conversation and said perfect. Let's tell you about this medication because our Latinos make the highest population on HIV in California of new infections So prevention is key and that's kind of what I do and that's my role because I know the barriers I had to access in Oklahoma so that's the work of my masters. Toby Jenkins: I don't think we're really able to talk about the company you work for. Jose Vega: No, but what my role - I'm the HIV community liaison For Sacramento and Central Valley. I've now been promoted to the Northern California Region where I come into organizations and clinics to help with their protocols, their workflows, education, support their program capacity, building evaluations, collect data. But also bring the community together to help end HIV. Toby Jenkins: Okay So I guess you're organizing chapters again. Jose Vega: Exactly from everything I learned from Oklahomans for Equality prepared me. Toby Jenkins: We're coming to the end unless our panelists have any other questions for you. Dennis Neill: Jose, where do you see your future going? What's your passion in the next five to ten years? Jose Vega: My passion is to help elevate and grow others, you know, and what was done to me what in support for me I want to give it back. That's always been my love and passion. I had the opportunity to do The mayor's Youth Council at high school, so I wanted youth to have that opportunity. I had the opportunity to grow and develop at the LGBT Center, so I want to help other youth other LGBTQ professionals grow and develop. I had the opportunity to move of California and help with HIV elimination. I'm doing that too. My goal in life is to continue doing that prepare the next generation because there's only so much I'm gonna be able to do or get to that we need to prepare our next LGBTQ warriors. I tell Toby we're in a slingshot era where yes, they're pulling us back. But the moment they let go they're gonna catapult us forward where we're better prepared now. Of all the rights they've taken from us, we're better prepared to learn how they went around it to build better policies and procedures. A better understanding of what we need to do to prepare our next generation because they're going to continue attacking us. I want to create a space where every LGBTQ person can live, thrive, and be happy. And during this time, it breaks my heart to hear all of our Oklahoma prairies move and leave away, and that leaves no voices out there. So I want to give back to community. I want to continue doing what I'm doing and help every aspect of our population. Dennis Neill: So you see yourself professionally staying for the foreseeable future within the LGBTQ community doing this work? �28 Jose Vega: In the LGBTQ movement, yes. I will continue to dedicate my life to the LGBTQ movement, at one capacity or another. Toby Jenkins: Any questions? Mary Bishop-Baldwin: No questions. I just want to say that your story is the most incredible that I think I've ever heard. How you've come from such beginnings and had to overcome so much trauma and adversity, and you stayed with it until you achieved goals every time. You never took no for an answer, and you knew your worth, your personal worth, and you weren't going to let somebody else establish boundaries for what you could be. And look what you've done. I admire you so much. Jose Vega: Thank you. Thank you. And that's what I want. I want to inspire others. I want them to see you can do it. There's still more to you. Something that we always told our youth, you know, it gets better. Keep at it. It keeps getting better. Toby Jenkins: Sometimes. It may get tougher, but it also can get better. While we think about that, let's say, do you have a message for the future, for people who come after us and for people who may review this and are just starting out? Do you have a message for them? Jose Vega: Continue believing in you. There's people that love you. There's home here. Believe in you. You have to believe in yourself. It may seem tough right now. It may seem like the world is against you. It may seem like there's no safe spaces. Come together. Come together and create it. Come together and join forces. Find your people. Your people are out there. You just need to find them. And where you can find them is here at the center. I'm a firm believer of the center. I love it. There were many times where I wanted to give up, but I found community here and purpose, inspiration. Every single person here in this room has inspired me one way or the other. From Dennis in a little closet behind the bar doing the helpline. From Toby helping lead the charge for creating change and sharing that his first job was the portapotties at Pride and helping with trash. And from Mary advocating for our marriage equality when the time seemed that we could never achieve it. These are all stepping stones. This center was built from block to block. We need you to be the second layer of block and glue. Toby Jenkins: You've been joining us today. If you'll say your name the way you like to say it. Jose Vega: Jose Emanuel Vega. Toby Jenkins: And his sidekick Pebbles. Pebbles, you did a great job during the interview. You've been joining us today here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library and the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality that sits on Pride Street in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Mary Bishop-Baldwin and Toby Jenkins have been your interviewing panel. Thank you so much, Jose. And congratulations on your Master's, your promotion at work. And thank you for not forgetting us and your family in Oklahoma. �29 Jose Vega: The revolution will always continue. Addendum: Top photo: Sign hanging at the Equality Center on March 6, 2017 when the windows and door were damaged by 13 pellet shots. Bottom Photo: Mayor G.T. Bynum, Jose and others celebrating the dedication of Pride Street on June 1, 2018. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Jose Vega Interview Subject The topic of the resource Jose Emmanuel Vega Oral History Project Interview from May 22, 2026 Description An account of the resource Join us for an inspiring interview with José Emanuel Vega, a dedicated LGBTQ+ advocate from Tulsa, Oklahoma, now making a difference in California. He shares his powerful story of overcoming trauma, fighting for LGBTQ+ rights, serving as Program Director and Deputy Director at Oklahomans for Equality, and building community through advocacy, education, and leadership. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jose Vega, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 22, 2026 2026 advocacy AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV prevention California coming out community conversion therapy Dennis Neill hate crimes HIV prevention HIV/AIDs human rights immigration interview Jose Emmanuel Vega Jose Vega leadership oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Alyssa Bryant Interview Subject The topic of the resource Alyssa Bryant Oral History Project Interview from May 29, 2026 Description An account of the resource Alyssa Bryant shares her life journey, from growing up in Oklahoma to her transition and advocacy for transgender rights. This interview covers her personal experiences, her legal practice, challenges, and contributions to the LGBTQ+ community. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins. Transcript edited by Mary Bishop-Baldwin June 5, 2026. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alyssa Bryant, Toby Jenkins, Mary Bishop-Baldwin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 29, 2026; June 5, 2026 2026 Alyssa Bryant available at Center discrimination Families family Gay Rights gender dysphoria healthcare interview legal advocacy legal resources Mary Bishop-Baldwin OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Transgender Transgender Rights video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/32e307a0685da0fb5f8040d6f08cb1b1.pdf fd3f6b5c66d8a54057fa6de42efc2548 PDF Text Text �� https://history.okeq.org/files/original/b2ad68bab393a8daeab66932c8b732cc.mp4 695b4045be1db9636b36095e53ee809b https://history.okeq.org/files/original/d80dffbe6a60cfe98ea0c621c945cda6.pdf 3d4ca6adb7c861d4cb1bb9201eb77d39 PDF Text Text 1 oklahomans for equality Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Barry Hensley and Terry Baxter Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: June 30, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video July 10, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org �2 About Barry Hensley and Terry Baxter: Summary This episode features a conversation with two long-time partners from Tulsa, Oklahoma, sharing their life stories, experiences with the LGBTQ+ community, and insights into the history of gay life in Texas and Oklahoma. Discover their journey through love, family rejection, activism, and resilience. In this episode, Terry Baxter and Barry Hensley share their experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, their careers in public service, and personal stories of love and resilience. Discover how their efforts have shaped community acceptance and the importance of authenticity. Keywords LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, Oklahoma, gay rights, family rejection, activism, HIV/AIDS, coming out, community, personal stories LGBTQ+ advocacy, Tulsa, public service, marriage equality, community activism, personal stories, diversity, inclusion, history, Pride Chapters 00:00 Celebrating Pride and Public Service 01:59 A Love Story: How They Met 06:06 Life in Dallas: The Early Years 09:50 Facing the AIDS Crisis Together 12:03 Childhood and Family Background 19:56 College Life and Early Relationships 27:48 Moving to Tulsa: A New Beginning 30:40 Coming Out and Family Dynamics 36:10 Reconciliation and Family Relationships �3 38:38 Childhood and Family Background 44:42 High School Experiences and Friendships 50:10 College Life and Activism 01:03:37 Community Connections and Support 01:04:12 Early Community Engagement and Pride Events 01:07:54 Library Displays and LGBTQ Representation 01:13:17 Involvement of PFLAG and Community Outreach 01:15:27 Building LGBTQ Literature Collections 01:18:03 Experiences at College Hill Presbyterian Church 01:29:14 Marriage Equality Journey and Community Support 01:32:52 A Memorable Wedding in Victoria 01:34:36 The Importance of Legal Recognition in Relationships 01:36:01 Insights from Working in Municipal Government 01:49:30 Navigating Politics and Civil Service 01:52:06 The Evolution of Anti-Discrimination Policies 02:03:48 Reflections on Life and Legacy Barry Hensley and Terry Baxter Oral History Interview June 30, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good morning, it is June 30th, 2026, the last day of Pride Month. And so, viewers, we have for you a very special treat. Individuals who spent their life in public service. It's such an honor and we have so much respect for them. Today, our interview and panel is Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Mary Bishop-Baldwin, here a part of the archives. And the marriage plaintiff from the marriage equality lawsuit. And this is Toby Jenkins. We're in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library at the Dennis R Neill Equality Center, headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality. And the dead center of the country, we're the gay outpost in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Today, our guests are very special to me and always been an inspiration. Could you please introduce yourselves? Barry Hensley: I'm Barry Hensley. Terry Baxter: I'm Terry Baxter. Toby Jenkins: Terry Baxter. And just give us your age. �4 Barry Hensley: I am 67. Terry Baxter: I am 72. Toby Jenkins: And you look marvelous. And just to blow our audience away, how long have you gentlemen been a couple? Terry Baxter: 46 years. Toby Jenkins: Yes. So we're just going to get started. And they've had incredible eyewitness accounts of our region and this part of the United States. But I just, if it's all right with our panel, I'd like to start at the very beginning part, how they met each other. And then we'll work backwards from the early part of your life. Barry Hensley: Sure. Toby Jenkins: And then your careers over the last 47 years. All right. So tell us the good stuff. Tell us, boys, how you met. Terry Baxter: I went to the University of Texas at Arlington for my undergraduate. And I met a guy there and we became friends. And he ran a flower shop in a mall when he wasn't at school. And so we stayed friends after I graduated from college. And every year he'd have a Halloween party, and people would dress up and come over and have fun. And Barry also went to University of Texas at Arlington. But being younger than me, I never knew he was there or anything. But he also met this mutual friend because he would go to the mall when he was bored and buy flowers for the apartment that he was living in. Barry Hensley: I’d go to the record stores and the bookstores. Terry Baxter: And all that stuff. So we ended up, both of us, going to the same party one year at this guy's house for Halloween. And we met each other at a Halloween party. I was dressed up in a bad toga. I looked like a, and I had a beard and a wreath over my head. Barry Hensley: It was the animal house era. Terry Baxter: Yeah. So I kind of looked like an animal house victim. And he was dressed up like a, I guess, what? Barry Hensley: I had a World War II sailor outfit on and a little hat and a necklace. So maybe an Andrews’ sister, maybe. Something like that. And I was very, very shy. Very withdrawn. And I was there with a friend. I kind of stuck by him. Because I didn't know anybody except the host. And everywhere I went in that house, Terry was right there. I'd go in the dining room to get something to eat and there's Terry. And I'd go in the living room where people were watching TV and there's Terry. Wherever I went, Terry was. Terry Baxter: I was magic. Barry Hensley: So we hit it off pretty fast. And the following Tuesday was election day, 1980, November 4th, I guess it was. And we had arranged a date to go to the Granada �5 Theater out in East Dallas to watch Elizabeth Taylor double feature, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof and Butterfield Eight. And so Terry has come to the condo where I was staying. There were four of us living there, college years, you know. A whole pile of us in this condo. And Terry knocks on the door to pick me up for this date. And I let him in. I introduced him to my friends. And he said, what are you all doing? And they said, oh, we're watching the election results. Reagan is ahead. And Terry said, oh, good. And I said, WHAT? Terry Baxter: That was almost the beginning of the end. Barry Hensley: Almost the beginning of the end. We managed to work it out. But that was how we met. Terry Baxter: Well, Anderson. Barry Hensley: I know. I voted for John Anderson that year. I was so irritated with some of the stuff that Jimmy Carter had done, which of course I'd love to have back now. But at the time it seemed like... Terry Baxter: I'd like to have Reagan back now. Barry Hensley: I know. Yeah. So that's how we met. Toby Jenkins: In Texas. Barry Hensley: In Texas, Dallas. Toby Jenkins: So the city of Tulsa owes Texas a debt of gratitude. You met in Texas and was it love at first sight or did you, I mean, were you able to overlook his... Barry Hensley: I was unaccustomed to such attention, so it took me a while to kind of figure out, you know, what this was like. Terry Baxter: It was okay. Barry Hensley: So, I hadn't really been much of a dater or anything, and I didn't really have a lot of experience. I was 20, but it wasn't really part of my reality, and so it was a new experience for me. So, it took about till January before we finally decided that we were probably going to try to make a go of staying together. I think I moved in later that spring or early summer. Toby Jenkins: In Arlington? Barry Hensley: Well, it was in Dallas. I was commuting, actually, with Tom Neal. He was another one of the roommates, and he was getting his architecture graduate degree at UTA, and I was still getting my communications bachelor's degree at UTA, so we would carpool every morning from Dallas to Arlington. Terry Baxter: So while he was carpooling to go to school, I was carpooling to go to work. Barry Hensley: But it was good. Dallas was fun at that time, in the early 80s. It was a lot of fun to be down there. �6 Toby Jenkins: What were kind of some of the things that y'all did? I mean, did you go to the Cedar Springs afternoon gig? Barry Hensley: Oh, yeah. Cedar Springs was really hopping, the restaurants and the gift shops, and the Village Station was there. We weren't really bar people. I mean, Terry had been, like the Old Plantation was. The Old Old Plantation, which was downtown Dallas. So we didn't really do the bar stuff, but it was so exciting to be in that place at that time. Divine came in to do a book signing at one of the bookstores, it's like, wow, this is crazy. Crossroads Market. Crossroads Market. And just a fun, fun neighborhood to be in. I did have a friend, another, it was Tom and Laurie and a friend of mine named Al. The four of us were living together on Cedar Springs, just north of the Strip. And Al was a playboy, and he liked to stay out late. And one night I got a call, the phone rang for us, a landline back then, and asked me to come pick him up. And he had run down, he was walking back from the bars and had been accosted on the street. He was at one of the toll booths at the Dallas North Tollway, which was right off Cedar Springs there. And so I picked him up and we went right over to St. Paul's Hospital. They really worked him over. That was the only time that really happened. I don't think we ever felt afraid or anything at that time in the Cedar Springs area. Terry Baxter: We didn't walk around by ourselves at two in the morning, in the middle of the night. Barry Hensley: That wasn't, no, I've always been an early to bed and late to rise sort of person. Terry Baxter: He's early to bed and I'm late to rise, make that work. Toby Jenkins: It should have been, at the time, the proliferation of gay bars as finding ourselves all across the country and bars opening up all over the place. Barry Hensley: J.R.'s was there, Hunky's was there. And they're still there. Yeah, J.R.'s is still there, yeah. Terry Baxter: And every bar had their own kind of clientele. So no matter what you were into, you always had a place to go and feel, at least feel that other people were kind of like you were. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been the 1980s? Barry Hensley: We were there until I graduated in 83 and was living with Terry then. He had bought a condo down off of Maple, still in the neighborhood. And I was having trouble getting a job. And he worked for MCI, the telephone company. And you were a regional manager, is that what it's called? And so he managed to get me a job temporarily, we thought, when the mail girl had to go on pregnancy leave and I filled in for her and they liked me. So I stayed and they found another spot for me at the customer service office. Terry Baxter: He did a much better job than she did. �7 Barry Hensley: And so it was great. We were both working for MCI. That was the company at that time. Man, they were giving Ma Bell a run for her money. And Sprint was hot on our tails, and it was exciting to work there. It was a lot of fun. Toby Jenkins: But it was pre-cell phone. Barry Hensley: Right, right. This is 1983, 84. Toby Jenkins: Okay, just curious, you're in Dallas, which had a pretty large organized gay movement. And you just, young men, you just found each other and got with each other. Do you remember at that time when you began to hear about AIDS and HIV infections? Barry Hensley: We have always been, one of the things that was so frustrating to me is that if Mary's suit [referring to Mary Bishop-Baldwin and the marriage equality lawsuit] had come before the Supreme Court in the 80s and we had gotten that passed back then and the American public was able to get on at that time, which would have encouraged young men to partner up, you know, we were off the market basically, I guess is a way to say it, at that time. So we avoided that situation. Lost so many friends. Absolutely heartbreaking. Terry Baxter: I was in the Turtle Creek Chorale at the time. Yeah. Barry Hensley: When they first started. Toby Jenkins: The Gay Men’s Chorus. Terry Baxter: Yes, and I guess my first problem with AIDS was having friends getting sick and dying that were in the choir with me. One of the unfortunate events was we had a concert and the guy who was supposed to sing one of the tenor solos got too sick to sing, and so I just got to sing his solo for him and I felt, in a way, I felt good because here was my chance to sing a solo, but then you're singing because somebody else is sick and not able to sing, and when you're a singer, that's a very important part of your life, and it was very crazy that you know that people were treating it like it was his problem rather than a disease and or something he did that he deserved, instead of just luck or bad luck. We both are thankful that we got each other when we did, because we both have had so many friends pass because of HIV/AIDS and other things too. But if we had been continuing dating and doing the typical gay lifestyle that the Bible Thumpers talk about at that time, we might have been subject to that bad luck as well. Barry Hensley: As I said, that wasn't really our reality. Yeah, we didn't. We didn't date a lot and go out a lot, so I don't know what our you know who knows what your chances I mean I had. Terry Baxter: I could count on two hands and I had one longtime boyfriend who's still a good friend of both of ours- yeah, our best friends, yeah, but you know, that was the extent. Barry Hensley: I was ready to settle down with the white picket fence when I was 14. �8 Toby Jenkins: Beautiful, okay. So thank you so much for starting right there. But you know you found each other, you got with each other and you were an eyewitness to history together. But you have a pre-story before you got together. So let's pick that up. Terry, tell us a little bit about your childhood, your family background and your when you came out as gay or whenever you decided to live your authentic life. Terry Baxter: Okay, let's see, I was born in the 50s and in Dallas, Texas. You barely made it to elementary school in Dallas and you know, when you're in elementary school there's no gay or straight. You're just a person. And you know some of the videos we've watched there. They've talked about being bullied and stuff a lot. I'm sure I was kind of effeminate because you look at pictures of me, but you know, if anybody tried to bully me, I would just turn to them say, look, you bully me. Your parents are going to get a lawsuit and you don't want that to be your responsibility and they go. They didn't know what to do with being faced with reality instead of somebody wanting to fight back or run. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And what made you have the presence as a child to say I'll sue you? Terry Baxter: I was a. I was a- what do you call it? Smartass. And that may be what kept me from being bullied more, because I could speak rings around other people. In fourth grade I had a teacher and a friend of mine. We were sitting in the back of the class. I usually sat near the front of the class because I didn't want to be distracted, but in this English class I was sitting in the back for some reason and we were talking and she was up there like Charlie Brown's teacher. So she says: Mr. Baxter, yes, ma'am, you're back there having a conversation. Would you please tell me what you just said? Well, I just said, and I said sure, and I quoted her verbatim because part of my brain was listening to her and part of it was involved in the conversation. So I was even kind of smart. I got all A's on grades, but then I always got marked down on citizenship because I wasn't. You know, I was. You know, Terry's a good student, but he needs to learn how to keep his mouth shut. Barry Hensley: And somehow, he never got fired. Figure out how that happened. Terry Baxter: Because I was smarter than the people I was working for, and so my father worked for the government, federal government, General Services Administration- and they built a new federal building in Fort Worth and so half of the government workers who had positions in Dallas were transferred to Fort Worth. And so that would happen to coincide with me leaving elementary school and going into junior high school. And my sister was sad because she was a freshman in high school, and all the people she had grown up with, she wasn't gonna be going to high school. And my brother was one year younger than me, so he was in sixth grade, so he didn't get to graduate from elementary school. Not that we really had any official thing like they do now when you graduate from every grade you go to. So we moved to Fort Worth, and I went to junior high and high school in Fort Worth. �9 When I went back to my reunions, I was happy to see how many gay people there were, but upset that I didn't know that they were when I was in high school, because we just didn't talk about things like that. Toby Jenkins: So did you know that you had feelings that were different than most of your classmates? Terry Baxter: Yeah, even in elementary school, we lived across the street from a 23acre park with a recreation center that had two basketball areas and a swimming pool and all that kind of stuff. And I would go watch the basketball games, not because I liked basketball, but because I liked seeing the guys in the shorts run around on the basketball floor. That wasn't in my head, I wasn't thinking I'm gonna go watch the guys in the skimpy shorts play basketball, or I wouldn't be thinking I'm gonna go look at the guys in the speedos in the swimming pool. It's just what I innately was attracted to, but I didn't think about it. So I don't say I didn't know why, because there was no knowledge of anything. It's just, I recollect as being an older person in high school that I, yes, there were signs of that when I was in as far back as elementary school. But there was never any action on it, because it was, you know, I became a Christian when I was 12, and... Toby Jenkins: What was your family background? Terry Baxter: My dad was a Methodist, my mother was a Baptist. My mother grew up in South Georgia, where they still have Confederate statues in the park. And my dad grew up in Chicago, so we had a blended, so we would go one week to the Baptist church, one week to the Methodist church, back and forth. And one time, my sister and brother and I just got together and said, we wanna join a church. And they said, well, which one do you wanna join? We said, the Methodist church. So I guess we were progressives even back then as kids. But, and later on in life, one of the interim pastors at my current church, when we were going between pastors, asked, how did you reconcile being gay with being Christian? And I said, well, there was never a reason to reconcile it, because I was Christian first, before I was sexual, anything. And then when I became having a sexual awareness, it was just another part of me. It had nothing to do with my Christianity. And so there was nothing for me to reconcile with. It was for other people to reconcile. Toby Jenkins: It wasn't a faith struggle? Terry Baxter: I never had a faith struggle, because God loved me, and it had nothing to do with my sex or the color of my hair or anything. So in high school, I didn't. I mean, it was funny that I found out about all these people that were gay, who they must have known each other was gay, but I never knew it. But I was the good kid that would go to, I'd go to school. After school was over, the church we went to was across the street from the school. So we'd go over there in the youth room and play pool and listen to records, early 70s records, Led Zeppelin and all that stuff on the turntable. So- �10 Barry Hensley: And you're still friends with those folks? Terry Baxter: Yeah. Went 50th reunion, and I mean, a couple of them we visited when we were in San Diego. AndBarry Hensley: Visiting another one next week in Portland. Terry Baxter: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And this, you would have graduated from Fort Worth High School? Terry Baxter: Yeah, Paschal High School in Fort Worth. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year? Terry Baxter: 72. Toby Jenkins: And how many would have been in your graduating class? How big was that? Terry Baxter: 830. Toby Jenkins: So it was a large...is that a suburban school? Terry Baxter: It was the original Fort Worth High School, and it's not downtown, but it's close to downtown, and they built other schools as the city grew out. And so it was... and then at the time, I would have had 1,200 people in my graduating class, but the year I was a senior, they split, they built a new school, and some of the people went to that school. Toby Jenkins: So you went from there to Arlington to school, right into college? Terry Baxter: Right, right into college. I moved into a dorm, didn't know anybody, had a strange roommate. He brought a deep fat fryer into the room, because that's what he wanted to cook with, because his parents owned some kind of restaurant in Tyler, Texas, and he grew up eating deep fat fried everything. I'm just thinking about that deep fat fryer and all that grease and everything in the dorm room, and the smell. Barry Hensley: Don't think they allow that now. Terry Baxter: No, I don't either. I had a hot plate so I could heat up my soup. That was before microwaves. Toby Jenkins: So in college, did you begin to explore your sexuality? Terry Baxter: Yeah, when I went to college, I realized in high school that I was gay, but I didn't, I don't think I called it that. I just liked guys, and I didn't call myself a homosexual, as some people did. So I went to college, and I just, the guy that I told you a little bit about earlier, I met him, and we became friends and boyfriends, and we were, gosh, several years during school. Then when I graduated, he was still in school one more year, and two more years, and I moved to Plano because I got a job in Plano, and so we weren't living together anymore, �11 and we decided it would be okay for us to just break up and be friends. And then, interestingly, when I moved back to Dallas, we got back together, and then we just kind of drifted apart, partly because I was living with him when I met Barry, so Barry broke us up. And we would go to the bars. The Old, Old Plantation that was on Harwood in Dallas, we would go there on Sundays right after about two o'clock in the afternoon for the tea dance. You'd pay a dollar cover, well drinks are ten cents, and they fed you a good meal. They had an actual cook there that would make turkey and dressing and green beans one week, or fried chicken another week, and so basically for a couple bucks, you'd have a whole afternoon of socializing and dancing and eating, and you'd go there at 2 in the afternoon and go home Sunday night at 2 in the morning and hope you can get to work the next day. Dennis Neill: Terry, while you were at the University, what was your major or your extracurricular activities, and was there an organized gay community as part of the student campus life? Terry Baxter: If there was an organized community, I think that organized after Barry was there. Barry Hensley: Yes, I was part of it. Terry Baxter: Yeah, he helped start it, so there wasn't an organized gay community when I first started. Toby Jenkins: Visible, there wasn't a visible… Terry Baxter: Yeah, there wasn't an organized, I'm sure, right, and there was only one bar in Arlington, Texas, and it started up when I was a junior. So, you know, Tim was a, he wouldn't care, Tim was my, the guy I was dating at the time, was a film major, and I was a biology major, except I took all my other subjects were business classes, interestingly. My goal was to become a doctor, but that didn't happen because I didn't have perfect grades. I still talk too much, and it was during an era when the state medical schools in Texas were really striving to get women and minorities into the medical field because they'd always been kind of white men, and so even when I would have an interview, I could tell that they were just interviewing because they should, and not because they were really looking for another white guy to put into medical school. So I was taking business classes. Anyway, there wasn't an official recognition of it at the time. Barry can tell you about when he started it. I went to Plano because I had worked as a teller in banks when I was in school all the time and that's how I got kind of into financial stuff and I decided, since I had a biology degree and a minor in chemistry, I should at least try to use that degree somewhere. So I went to Plano, Texas, where Anderson Clayton Foods- which got bought up by Kraft ultimately- but they're the ones who had Chiffon margarine- it's not nice to fool mother nature- and Seven Seas Green Goddess salad dressing and all that kind of stuff and Mrs �12 Tucker's shortening. It was a viable company, and I went there and did my job to develop imitation cheese products and it was interesting at first. But then I realized that standing in a lab by myself all day in a lab coat, making minute adjustments to recipes to create imitation cheese and then holding panels for people to taste them and say which one's better and using that as your path to make it better, and not having any communication with people- I was in the lab eight hours a day by myself and I'm a talker and it's hard to talk to the blender that's blending up your imitation cheese. Barry Hensley: But to this day we'll be in the grocery store and he'll grab something. He'll look at it, look at all the chemicals in it and verbalize: oh, this one's okay, oh, you shouldn't have this. You know, put that back on the shelf. So he knows stuff. Terry Baxter: And when I was at a restaurant one time, I said the cheese in this is imitation and it's not a good one. And Barry said: how can you tell? I said because it tastes like a barnyard and it's just…You know, you develop the sensitivity to those things. I decided to go back into the banking business and moved back into Dallas and worked at a small bank- metro bank- in downtown Dallas and the lady who I worked with, the supervisor of the drive-in that I was working in, felt threatened by me, not in a physical sense but because I was smart and quick and being noticed by the management of the place. So her daughter got me an interview at MCI in the credit department, and I interviewed there and got that job. So I'd say it made her feel better and it made me feel better because it was a much better paying job and I was with MCI four and a half years. They transferred me, eight months before I quit, to Washington DC and I lived in Arlington, Virginia. And then they wanted to transfer me to New York and pay me the same thing they were paying in Washington DC, and I couldn't figure out how to afford living in New York on the same salary in Washington DC. Barry couldn't find a job in Washington, DC because he had come relocated temporarily- it's turned out to be, and so we both packed up our bags, put Grandma on top of that truck and drove to Hollywood- no, drove to Tulsa, and then we're out of work for most of the summer. But I got a pretty good severance package because they were doing a reorganization and so if you could not be in a place, fit you in the reorganization, they would give you a severance package. It was a couple weeks of pay for every year you worked for them, all your vacation and all your sick leave, and so that was pretty good. Barry Hensley: We'd moved to Tulsa and my mom was here and I had a lot of friends here. Terry didn't know anybody, so it was new to him. This is spring of 85. And so that summer we're trying to find jobs, and we ended up living at the Harvard Terrace Apartments at 26th and Harvard. I don't know how many people we know have gone through those apartments at some point in their lives. Toby Jenkins: They are great apartments. Terry Baxter: They still are. �13 Barry Hensley: It was 250 bucks a month. We didn't have jobs, they didn't care, as long as we could pay it. Terry Baxter: And then, of course, we signed the lease and I go: uh-oh, it says we can't have pets. She said, oh, don't worry about that, and she scratched it out because we had cats. Barry Hensley: So very nice place to live, but that got us through the summer. Dennis Neill: So how did you decide on Tulsa as opposed to your home state of Texas? Terry Baxter: Dallas had gotten really big. Fort Worth was beginning to become the right-wing bastion that it is today, and so I, just after having lived in Washington DC and spent my weekends on DuPont Circle, had the bookstore and stuff like that it was, I'd rather go to some place that hadn't grown up yet than go to a place that grew up wrong. So, and Barry's mother was here. Barry Hensley: She'd had some health issues, she'd had a heart attack. Terry Baxter: Oh, I guess I should go back. My parents had disowned me, so I guess I better go back and say how that came about. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, give us that real quick and then we'll get Barry's background. Terry Baxter: Yeah, because Barry can talk about Arlington and start again. But anyway, when I was working at the bank, I worked part-time at Sears in the credit office, and another worker at the credit office who— Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Is this while you were in college? Terry Baxter: Yeah. So I worked two jobs in college. And we were just talking to each other. And the sister of my brother's wife—so I guess whatever, she's not related to me—but my brother's wife's sister saw us talking together, and I guess he or I made some movement that made her think we were faggy. And so she told my brother's wife. And so one Saturday night when I got off work, I usually would go stop by my parents, because they had moved to Arlington at the time, sold their house in Fort Worth, moved to Arlington. And I'd go by their house just to visit for a little while, and then I would drive back to Dallas to go live where I live. I got there, and my brother and his wife were there, and there was a confrontation of— and to this day, I don't know what my sister-in-law thought she was going to get out of it, but she felt it necessary to tell my parents that I was gay, even though she didn't know for sure, but she made assumptions that happened to be correct. And it was not a good situation. I didn't speak to my father for ten years after that, because he wouldn't speak to me. My mother, I would send letters, and occasionally she would write a little note back, got your letter. But I never did understand that, but I couldn't drive home, because I was so shaken, because I didn't know what to say, because I didn't come out, because I knew it would bother them. But there was no reason to come out, because what I was doing �14 when I wasn't at home was not affecting them at all, but my sister-in-law had decided to make it affect them, which I thought was not in their best interest or mine. So luckily, Tim, who we'd been boyfriends and now we're just friends, was still at UTA, and I drove from their house to his place and stayed there overnight, because I just wasn't up to driving all the way back to Dallas with that going on. And so that's how I came out, or I was outed. In work situations, it wasn't officially don't ask, don't tell, but there was no reason to talk about it, because it was work. I think I didn't come out at the city until I was in, probably it was about four years before I retired, and we were in a meeting, and we were talking about something, and my boss said, well, what did you and your wife do? And I said, I don't have a wife, I'm gay. And that was the first time I said it out loud, because nobody else had ever asked. And she was like, you are? Oh, well, I don't know, it didn't mean anything, and she wasn't prejudiced about it or anything. But everybody else just knew, even though we never talked about it, because it was a state of being, not a thing. It was, you know, that's who I was. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: This was about four years before you retired, so that would have been about what year? Terry Baxter: About 2014. And every other place, I did my job better than most people do their jobs. I kept getting promotions. Every time I took a different job in the city, I had 12 different jobs, and that was to get more money, because if you work for the city, you don't get pay raises in place. You might get a 2% raise or 3% raise, but if you take a new position that's higher grade, you get a 10% raise. Barry Hensley: And you're still in the pension plan. Terry Baxter: And that's giving you more retirement and more of that. So I took advantage of the opportunities. I only used the opportunities once to escape, and I took a downgrade at that time to escape from a particular boss who was kind of like one of his later bosses. She loved you when you weren't working for her, but once you worked for her, she hated you if she hadn't hired you. And she tried to demote me, because I did not report into office when I was on jury duty. And I said, the city policy doesn't require you to report to work when you're on jury duty. And she says, well, that doesn't matter. I expect you to come to work. So I got with her boss and said, we can keep this in the family, and you can tell her that she doesn't have the right to do that, or I can go to HR and make this public to everybody that she's violating city policy by telling me I have to report to work when I'm on jury duty. And she said, that doesn’t matter, I expect you to come to work. I got with her boss and said, we can keep this in the family and you can tell her she doesn’t have the right, or I can go to HR and make this public that she is violating city policy by telling me I have to report to work when I am on jury duty. He took care of it. And so that was, but then I knew that I wasn't gonna, I was persona non grata with her from then forward. So I left the finance department and went to the fire department. �15 Toby Jenkins: What was your family's objection? I mean, were they embarrassed by it? Was it a religious objection over your sexuality? Was it political… Terry Baxter: I never got a good explanation from them. Dennis Neill: Was there a reconciliation over these years, the four players in that scene? Terry Baxter: When my dad got cancer and was dying, my mother decided that we should be able to, I should be able to see him before he died. Barry Hensley: It's 1990. Terry Baxter: And so I went back, spent some time at Thanksgiving, and spent some time at Christmas, and he died in January, 1st of January, not on the 1st, but in the 1st week of January. And that was the only, and he was already kind of not there because of the medication. And so it wasn't really a reconciliation. It was just a, you should not be able to see your father before he dies, and he should not be able to see you. SoBarry Hensley: We're friends with the brother now. Terry Baxter: Yeah, now. My mother, it tookBarry Hensley: His mother, okay. So she allowed him to come see his dad as he was dying in 1990. We had already been together ten years at that time. She did not allow me to come meet her or any of the family until 2002. We'd been together 22 years before she allowed me to meet the family. And I went downTerry Baxter: And she liked him better than me. Barry Hensley: And met the family, and they were lovely people, and this has been great ever since. So we've just wasted a lot of years. Toby Jenkins: This is profound, and I wanna make sure viewers capture that part of it. The alienation from the family, the family reject you, but yet apparently you stay somehow connected to them. Terry Baxter: Yeah, I would send birthday cards, but I always got them backwards until my dad finally said, I came first. Barry Hensley: Right. Terry Baxter: Cuz his birthday was September 16th, and hers was October 23rd. But I would always think it was her birthday on September 23rd, and his on October 16th. And so he said, in both cases, I came first, September, and 16 comes before 23. So then I finally knew how to figure out whose birthday card I was sending. But I tried to keep in touch. My sister and I kept in touch. My brother and I didn't for quite some years. But we do now. Toby Jenkins: Let's find out about Barry. Tell us a little bit about your childhood, your family background. Because if I understand, you were a Tulsan. �16 Barry Hensley: I was. My grandfather, my mother's father, left the extreme poverty of southern Missouri in 1915. Excuse me, 1910, and he was 15 years old. And he was hitchhiking to California, because that's where you went back then. And he made it to Yale, Oklahoma, ran out of money, turned around and came back to Tulsa, because that was the closest big city. And he stayed there the rest of his life. He went to World War I, came back and started the Moulder, Oldham Janitorial Supply Company, which was at 219 North Denver, which is where the jail is now, the county jail. And he had that business until he died in 1975. So my mom was born in 1930, and she and my dad got together. My grandmother was a very hard-nosed woman. She was a difficult mother, apparently, I have heard from her kids and from other family members back in the 40s into the 50s. She was a really difficult personality. By the time I came along in the 60s, she had mellowed a lot. She was a big supporter of mine, and I appreciated her a lot. But I knew I didn't want to do anything to cross her. So when I was a teenager, if someone suggested that you do some stupid teenage thing to get in trouble or whatever, I'd say, I can't do that. Grandmother will kill me. So that's how I stayed out of trouble, was having the invisible grandmother looking over my shoulder at that moment. But yeah, my parents bought the house we're living in now over near 21st and Lewis. It's not the big fancy houses on the south side. It's the little bungalows on the north side, although we did a big renovation on it when my mom died. But they bought that house in 1951, and that's where I grew up, went to Barnard Elementary, my beloved Barnard Elementary. My parents divorced. I was very young. Dad had already remarried and moved to Dallas by the time I was five, so I don't remember him at the house at all, and he had distanced himself quite a bit. Nice guy, and he would come up and see me and my brother. My brother was developmentally disabled, just the two of us, and Dad would come up on the holidays, you know, when you're in elementary school, Thanksgiving and whatever, the 4th of July. And we'd go down and spend a week or two in Dallas every summer with him and his new family. Toby Jenkins: Did he still continue to financially support the family? Barry Hensley: Not, no. Nope, nope, nope. He was supposed to. He did his own, well, he had his own family, and his new wife, bless her heart, she was a, he had a tiger by the tail there, so he had to provide for the two new boys that he ended up with when he married her. But yeah, I grew up at Barnard, and after Dad left, Mom, it's just Mom and I, because David, my brother, was off at school, as you called it back then, he was at school. He went to Hissom and some other places. But Mom had some issues. She had some demons that she had a hard time overcoming, and it's one of those things where the kid becomes the parent, you know, elementary school sort of thing. So there were, I didn't choke up here, because Barnard, that was my refuge. That was the place that I got away from the real world, and I loved it so much. And when it burned down, that just about killed me, even though it had been decades, you know, decades �17 after that. But it was a really good experience working at working, thank you, working at, or going to school at Barnard. Lifelong friends I still have. And then junior high school, I went to Holland Hall. The family decided that was a spot. My uncles had gone to Cascia, and Holland Hall seemed like a good alternative, and so I went. It was at the old campus at 26th and Birmingham. Toby Jenkins: Were you all Episcopal or… Barry Hensley: No, we were Presbyterian. Yeah, so grew up in the First Presbyterian Church downtown. I was in the choir, children's choir, and we participated. Mom distanced herself from it. She didn't really like it that much anymore, even though that's where she had grown up as well. My grandparents were already there when they built that building in 1925. So their names are all over the place down there. But grandmother still liked to go, and after granddaddy died, and I got my driver's license, I would take her down on Sunday mornings, and Dr. Wiseman was there then, and she liked him a lot. Toby Jenkins: Legend. Barry Hensley: Yeah, and but I think I was 17 or 18, and it wasn't Dr. Wiseman, it was a guest minister that week, and who went on this anti-gay tirade. Absolute tirade, and I'm sitting there looking at this. I'm thinking, this guy is nuts. This is crazy. The stuff he's saying is just not even true. Toby Jenkins: You were in high school? Barry Hensley: I was in high school. I was probably 17, and I probably hadn't really come to grips with my sexuality necessarily. You did what you did back then. You know, I'd go take a girl to the you know, dance and to the sweetheart ball or whatever, and those lovely young ladies, I'm still friends with every one of them. They are wonderful people. But yeah, so after that... Terry Baxter: And now they know why he didn't go any farther than just taking them to the dance. Barry Hensley: I was safe. Yeah, their mothers liked me. But after that event at First Prez, I still took Grandmother because she wanted to go, but I knew that I was not going to end up at First Prez, and Mom had already left. She had been exploring some other places, and so we'll talk about College Hill here in a minute. Dennis Neill: So Barry, how did your mother provide for you all? Barry Hensley: It was a difficult situation. She... My grandparents basically provided for us. Mom was... She was capable of holding a job, but as I say, these demons would get involved, and it made it really difficult. She worked for the Tulsa County Health Department for several years, off and on, sometimes part-time, that sort of thing. So I think the finances... You don't know it when you're that age, you know, but yeah, I mean, we got food on the table, but I had an entire... I had an entire group that helped raise �18 me. The two little ladies across the street, they were sisters, elderly sisters, and I would go spend time over there. I'd sleep over there. They'd feed me. They'd take me on trips with them. You know, the neighborhood and the family would step in when Mom wasn't able to do that, and I am forever grateful for all those folks coming together when I needed them. But it was funny. I keep thinking back now. I never got the talk from either of my parents, you know. You're just supposed to find out how the world works sexually on your own. Terry Baxter: Except his mother working in the health department. Barry Hensley: That's what I'm going to tell you about. So she does these county health fairs around Tulsa County. And so my education was all the stuff she left in the back of the car, which were brochures and fake breasts where you determine where the lumps are and all of those sorts of things. Because that's what she was doing, educating young women was her primary job. So I had all of this information in the backseat of the car. That was the talk. Yes, it was so funny. Toby Jenkins: You had more than most anybody else. Barry Hensley: Yeah, it didn't occur to me to go to the library. I should have done that. But I was at Holland Hall for three years, and then one year at the new campus. The new campus, been there 50 years now out on Yale at 81st Street. Good friends there, lifelong friends I made there. And then I went to Edison for 10th, 11th, and 12th grade. And we were just across… We were north of 21st Street, so we weren't in the Edison district. We were in the Central District. And at that time, Central had just moved from the building downtown where PSO is now, way the heck out, south of Gilcrease, their new campus out there. And mom said, I am not taking you all the way out there. Terry Baxter: Not that she took you to Edison. Barry Hensley: And Rogers was so close, it made no sense the way the lines were drawn. And Edison was literally two miles south of us. Terry Baxter: And it was because the railroad track that goes down to Broken Arrow Expressway, before the highway was there, was the dividing line, because kids could not cross railroad tracks to go to school. Terry Baxter: Yeah, my grandmother lived at 26th and Columbia. And so we used her address. And nobody was any wiser. Dennis Neill: And I think one of your good friends growing up was Scott Goodpaster. Barry Hensley: Indeed. Dennis Neill: Can you talk when you first met Scott? Barry Hensley: Yes. So at Edison, again, a bunch of lifelong friends, wonderful people. Toby Jenkins: Let me ask this real quick. So what year did you graduate? �19 Barry Hensley: 78. Toby Jenkins: 78. And how many were in your graduating class at Edison? Barry Hensley: Maybe 700, maybe. Terry Baxter: I can't remember exactly. Toby Jenkins: Still a big school. Barry Hensley: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: OK, now talk about your high school friends. Barry Hensley: So yeah, so several high school friends. Scott was a good one. I met him pretty quickly. We were 16. He just passed away. He turned into the most incredible artist and most incredible landscaper, gardener, just unbelievable. His yard is pristine. And when he died back in May, his family was so generous. None of them lived here. But they all came in to do all these arrangements. And they allowed me to take some plants out of his yard, which just really, so I sit in the backyard now. We have plants from friends, neighbors, co-workers, family, all of these plants, perennials. So I see them every year. And I sit out there in the evenings with an adult beverage and just toast the world. Terry Baxter: That was, we learned to do that during COVID and ever since then… Barry Hensley: We still do it. Yeah, I love it so much. But Scott was a golden boy. He was a handsome guy. Everybody wanted to be his friend. And he was a very private, very private guy. His best friend, who then became one of my best friends, was Stephen Breckenridge. Stephen was the great grandson of Waite and Genevieve Phillips, of Philbrook fame. And Stephen was a wild child. He was funny, everybody loved him. And that's part of it. He managed to get through school, I think, without being bullied. And the same way I did. I never got bullied. Because I think we subconsciously at that time realized that if you could make the bullies laugh, they wouldn't beat you up. So you did, you came up with humor, was the way that you diffused those situations. And Stephen was a prime example of that. And he was a hoot. So he was in theater, so I was in the theater stuff, and enjoyed that a lot. Toby Jenkins: So Steve Breckenridge, Scott Goodpaster, you’re all at Edison. Was anybody telling anybody that they had same-sex attraction? Barry Hensley: Yeah, yeah, there was a group of us, theater guys, you know. We... You know, you started experimenting when you were 16, 17 years old. Toby Jenkins: So, you know, there were high school kids at Edison that you were friends, lifelong friends, and you had figured it out by then. Barry Hensley: I had. �20 Toby Jenkins: And they had also. Terry Baxter: Yeah, I think so. Terry Baxter: Especially Stephen . Barry Hensley: Yeah, especially Stephen. I had never come out to my parents. I never did that. We never had a discussion about it. I lived my life the way I wanted to. I took the girls, as I said, to the dances and whatnot. Terry Baxter: But they did know because when we moved into our first house, his dad and I were working on basically stuff you do when you want to. Barry Hensley: Carpentry. Terry Baxter: Carpentry stuff. Toby Jenkins: That's right, because your father lived in Texas. Terry Baxter: Yeah, they didn't know. And he would come up here and he helped us. And we were planing the bottom of a door. And Gene just said, I'm glad Barry ended up with somebody like you. And I guess I took it meaning, because I knew how to do that woodwork and all that kind of stuff. But he also said, ended up with someone like you, which made it obvious that he wasn't confused about what our relationship was. Barry Hensley: He was a great guy. He just wanted me to be happy. I appreciated that. Toby Jenkins: So you were in high school. You've got this circle of friends. You were in theater and. . . Bary Hensley: Yeah, pretty much. I had been a soccer kid at Holland Hall, but didn't really do much in the gym at Edison. Graduated in 78. And Scott and another friend, Ben Crockett, and I decided to go to Oklahoma State University that fall. It would be the fall of 78. So we went. And you'll find this funny about Scott. So Ben and I got a dorm room together in Parker dorm. Scott pledged a fraternity. And we hadn't been at school more than probably a week or ten days. And one night after midnight, our dorm room door, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And it's Scott. And we open the door and he says, I am not going through this initiation ceremony. And we said, good for you. It's like we could have told you that was going to happen. But anyway, he slept on the floor that night and managed to get a room in our dorm, the other end of the hall. And these are the old-fashioned dorms where you have one central bathroom, you know, with the shower stalls and everything. And so Ben and I would get your towel and walk down the hall in your underwear with your bar of soap. And that was about it. And there comes Scott, who has his long robe on and his slippers. And he has a satchel over his shoulder going to the shower. Terry Baxter: Full of products. �21 Barry Hensley: Full of moisturizers and all of those sorts of things, cleansers of one kind or another. He was so careful about his skin. So it was a lot of fun. Toby Jenkins: He probably had a subscription to GQ magazine. Barry Hensley: Oh, yes, of course. No, he turned me on to GQ magazine back in the 70s. You bet. So we're at Oklahoma State University. And I decided it wasn't a very good fit, although it was kind of funny. I have a picture of it. So this was the era of Farrah Fawcett. You know, that poster of her and Linda Carter as Wonder Woman. And all the guys had all that up in their dorms. And I have this huge poster of Judy Garland at the Palace in 1967 on my wall at OSU. But again, I didn't get bullied about it. They were just completely confused, having no idea what it was. Terry Baxter: Who is that old lady on your wall? Barry Hensley: Yeah, that was pretty fun. So I decided that that wasn't where I wanted to stay the rest of my college career and that I hadn't really known my dad very well. And so he was in Dallas, and I decided to go to—I went down to several schools down there. I could use in-state tuition since he lived in Dallas and started going to UTA. UTA is a commuter school, so the weekends are pretty dull. People live everywhere else except for Terry and a handful of people in the dorms. It's empty on the weekends. So I'd go back to my dad's house on the weekends. My stepmother, bless her heart, would do my laundry. And so I would get to know them a little better. And this would be the fall of 79 I started at UTA. And quickly discovered, as you do when you're 19, 20, 21, I think it was in 1981, I would have been 21, and there was a group of us. We weren't best friends, but we kind of recognized each other as gay. And UT Austin, there had been some stuff coming out about their sort of gay-straight alliance, whatever it was called at that time, and we didn't have one. And we needed our little group. We got together at the one bar that Terry was talking about in Arlington to strategize about how we approach the administration about recognizing our organization. We went through all of this stuff and had to go through all of these, you know, bylaws and all these things to make sure that we fit the criteria for what they needed so they couldn't say no. And we did. We went through that process and I remember, I'll remember to this day, sitting outside the door. Only one of us could go in to make the presentation to the, whatever, the president and the board or whatever it was called. And the rest of us were sitting out in the lobby area just, you know, sweating like crazy. And he came out with a great big smile on his face. And that was the first recognition of a gay group at the University of Texas at Arlington. So that was very exciting. Dennis Neill: Do you recall your acronym? Barry Hensley: I don't. I don't know what it was called. It wasn't the Gay-Straight Alliance. We had a different name for it. But, it didn't do a lot. We didn't do a lot of, I mean, we'd have like a booth maybe, you know, at events and such. Terry Baxter: Registration. �22 Barry Hensley: Right. But I don't remember being really active that much. And I wasn't living on campus. Dennis Neill: When I interviewed Tom Neal, he talked about being active and helping form a group at OU. Was he also involved in this effort? Barry Hensley: No, I don't think so. I don't remember him being involved in that. No, I don't remember that. Terry Baxter: He was in graduate school and so he was not involved with the same people that Barry was. Barry Hensley: But when I was first at UTA, I lived just off campus in a little apartment. And that's when we were forming this organization. By the time I was living with Tom and Laurie and Al in Dallas, it was already in existence by the time we were commuting every day. So I got my degree in communications in 1983. And as Terry said, you know, went to work for MCI. And we came back to Tulsa in the summer of 85. And Terry had an interview at the city of Tulsa. And at that time, the city offices were [where the] the Aloft Hotel [is now]. Toby Jenkins: So why did you come back to Tulsa? Barry Hensley: Well, the cost of living is very inexpensive. And my mom was having some health issues. So we didn't live with her in the summer of 85. Terry Baxter: And we didn't want to go back to Texas. Barry Hensley: Yeah. And I still hadn't met Terry's family or anything. So there wasn't too much reason for me to be involved there. But anyway, so Terry has an interview at the city of Tulsa. There's a parking lot between that building and the Central Library. And so I'm sitting in the car. Toby Jenkins: Because in those days, City Hall was... Barry Hensley: Where the Aloft is now. Toby Jenkins: Civic Center. Yeah. Barry Hensley: 100 Civic Center. Right. The library is 300, I think, Civic Center. 400. 400 Civic Center. So I'm sitting there in the parking lot. And I'm staring at the Aloft Hotel, the city of Tulsa. And while Terry's having his interview, I didn't have a job either. And back then, if you needed a job, you had a trunk full of resumes. You know? And if something looked interesting or you saw a sign somewhere, you'd go in and talk to them. So I popped the trunk and I got a resume. And I went up to the fourth floor. That's where the business office was then. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: At the library? Barry Hensley: At the library. I didn't have any library experience. You know, I'm 25 years old. And the personnel director happened to be standing there at the little desk, talking to some of the staff. And she introduced herself and said, Well, I have a few minutes. Come on in. �23 And so I did. And she is still alive. She's having her 90th birthday next month. Lovely lady. And my life would not have been the same without her. Because she got me an interview, first of all, with Wayne Hardy in the Media Center. Which is where I really wanted to work. Because it was not books. It was movies and music and all the stuff that I really loved. I was into all the golden era of Hollywood and all of those things. And Wayne, very unwisely, turned me down. Because there was a former staff member that applied also, so he hired her back. I didn't understand it. But anyway, the personnel director then sent me out to Hardesty, which was then by Woodland Hills Mall, across from Dillard's at Woodland Hills Mall. And I got the job out there without one day of library experience. I started as a library associate. Terry Baxter: And we were in Eureka Springs when you got called saying you needed to come to work on Monday. Barry Hensley: I needed to come to work on Monday. So it was a very exciting time. I started in September of 85. Terry started in October of 85 at the City. He got a job there. Terry Baxter: They didn't want to hire me at first because I was overqualified. Toby Jenkins: So, City employee, and it was County-City… Barry Hensley: City-County employee, yeah. But we both are part of the same retirement system. Toby Jenkins: So you're part of the pension, the City, the County pension, or the City? Terry Baxter: It's the City one. Barry Hensley: The library had to make a choice decades ago and they went with the City. Terry Baxter: The City and the County formed them as a joint thing with their own board and all that kind of stuff. They kind of chose the parts that they wanted from each organization. Toby Jenkins: So they have the health department, some other things. Barry Hensley: I wanted to go back to something real quick because I thought it was, I thought it was interesting. You asked to put, have notes in, so I do. I realized after we moved back to Tulsa that my mom's, many of my mom's friends, I had known all my life, I had seen them in and out and, you know, they were just her friends from high school, mainly, and a couple of those guys were gay. And I, we sort of started realizing that and I thought it was so interesting that she, I think it was a don't ask, don't tell sort of situation, you know, back then. But these guys would step up and they would, you know, escort mom or her other friends to events or whatever. So, you know, I think that, I think it was a win-win situation. But I remember one of them, John, John Raveill, he was a Prime Timer here and he was, he and mom were good buddies from Central High School on. �24 And he told me one time, I just thought this was interesting, back in the 60s, back in the good old days, they would go, he and his buddies would go to, I think it was called the Taj Mahal, down on 7th Street, across from the Holiday Inn. And when they would get done, you know, middle of the night, late, the police would be waiting for them. And I'm so grateful for the police officers now. I always thank them at the pride parades and whatever else because they're so supportive and so helpful. Not so back then. So John said what would happen is his buddy would go through the door, the police officer would intercept him and order him to walk across the street. And so he would walk across the street and be promptly arrested for jaywalking. And John said, aha. So when the officer ordered him to do that, he walked to the corner to walk across with the light, where he was promptly arrested for disobeying an officer. So that was the environment that those guys had to live in. Toby Jenkins: Police harassment. Barry Hensley: It was harassment. Very basic harassment. So I was so grateful that, you know, things have changed through the years, yes. So are you ready for the library? Dennis Neill: Well, when you first came here in 1985, did you get connected with the gay community at that time? Or were you pretty isolated from the community? Barry Hensley: My old friends were the gay community for us. And we weren't bar guys. We didn't go out and do that. Terry Baxter: We would have friends over to Barry's mother's pool. And she would have all her friends and we'd have our friends. So there'd be 40 people at the pool every Sunday. Half of her friends, and almost all of our friends, were gay. But it was an interesting mixture of people. Dennis Neill: So TOHR wasn't part of your early introduction to the community, Barry Hensley: Not at that time. Terry Baxter: Only ancillarily, you know, like Tom's bookstore, we'd go there every once in a while to get stuff. But it was funny. Toby Jenkins: Did you attend any of the meetings at the library? Barry Hensley: I don't remember doing that, no. Terry Baxter: We went to the Red Ribbon Gala several times, until it became more of a social outlet instead of a fundraiser cause. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever attend the Pride Picnics? Terry Baxter: Yeah. Barry Hensley: Oh, yeah. Terry Baxter: He has a story about that. �25 Barry Hensley: Well, so I'm at the library in 1994, 25th anniversary of the Stonewall situation. And the library had never had a display of Pride anything. Yeah, I don't know if you can see that or not. But that's the first Pride display at the library in 1994. I had gone to the Central Library Manager at that time, my boss, John. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Did you still work at Hardesty? Barry Hensley: I had moved down to Central. I had been an interlibrary loan at Central in the late 80s and then moved to the Circulation Department. I managed the Circulation Department when this transpired, and then I went out to what was then West Regional and became the Zarrow Regional Library at 51st and Union. I was there for 21 years, and then I became a Regional Director and moved back to Central and was in charge of half the branches, the North and West branches. I went to John and asked if I could do this display, and he said, sure. So I commandeered this display unit, which was outside of... Toby Jenkins: Were you out to John? Did John know you were gay? Barry Hensley: Oh, we never talked about it, but sure. And the library staff were always, I mean, Terry was just with me. There was never any discussion. The library was a very supportive environment without necessarily verbalizing it, I think, at that time. And so I went around and found these books. This was in the South Foyer outside of Aaronson Auditorium, one of the old 1960s, the original display units. And at that time, Bruce Bower's A Place at the Table had been a big book. There were several things, and I thought that the 25th anniversary of Stonewall was a good opportunity to do a display. And at that time, analog…to get magazine articles that I wanted to put in the display on the other side, I had to go to the periodicals department. I got big binders of books, of magazines. You find Life magazine, you find Newsweek, you find the articles, you take them to the photocopier. You cut and you paste, and very analog. But I got the information out there, man. And so this display went up, and I hadn't heard any response about it, which I thought was fine. And then John caught me on the elevator a couple weeks after it went up. And he said, oh, I got a comment about your display. And I was kind of steeling myself for whatever that comment would be. He said, yeah, this guy pulled me over, and he said, oh man, thank you so much for putting up that Stonewall Jackson display. And I was thinking, Stonewall Jackson, 25 years ago? Is it really? Terry Baxter: He obviously didn't read what was in there. Barry Hensley: But I'll take it. Terry Baxter: He just saw the word Stonewall. Barry Hensley: So anyway, that was the first one. Toby Jenkins: And no protest? You had nobody? Barry Hensley: No, no. Nobody said a word. �26 Toby Jenkins: That is astonishing. Barry Hensley: Nobody said a word. Toby Jenkins: Maybe everybody thought it was Stonewall Jackson. Barry Hensley: Yeah, maybe. Dennis Neill: Did it make the media? Barry Hensley: Not that I recall. Terry Baxter: I think Tom said something in TFN about it. Barry Hensley: So yeah, so what happened after that was, I was on a roll. So Tom Neal had started the Tulsa Family News. I got approval to have a library column every month in the Tulsa Family News, the new books, the new, you know, whatever we were getting relating to the community. So I did that for as long as he had TFN. And there was some, there was a little kerfuffle about the distribution, because I don't think the library administration at that time wanted to go overboard on all of this. And so they found a loophole in the laws, the library rules and regulations, that we could not distribute to the branches and whatnot…You know, they have, in the lobbies, there are display units that have magazines and newspapers and that sort of thing. If it wasn't a Tulsa-oriented piece of publication. And at that time, Tom was getting blackballed by the local publishers in the city of Tulsa. He had to go to the city of Claremore, where he found someone to publish his newspaper. He would go up there and get it and drive it back and distribute it wherever he wanted to. And that was the loophole. It was in Claremore, it was published in Claremore, not in Tulsa. So the library decided they didn't need to do that. Well, after quite a bit of, if you know Tom, he doesn't take that sort of thing well. So eventually it rectified itself and we were able to distribute it to all the locations in Tulsa County, all the libraries in Tulsa County, which was very cool. But that also was the beginning of having a booth, a library booth, at the Pride events. So we had a booth at Mohawk, we had a booth at Owen Park. Terry Baxter: We had a picnic table. Barry Hensley: That's right, a picnic table with a rainbow flag that we bought across it, that's right, and a homemade sign. And a few books. Terry Baxter: And this table was slowly sinking into the mud. Barry Hensley: Yeah, at Mohawk Park, that was a soggy one, yes, I remember that. And at Owen Park, I remember, I know we were there at the summer of 1996, because over the intercom, they would play music and Ella Fitzgerald came on, and that's when we realized that Ella Fitzgerald had died that day. So I can't complain exactly. She was one of my heroes. Oh my god, it was so exciting when we were living in Dallas. Terry was my sugar daddy, sort of, you know. �27 He had a job at the time. I was a starving college student, and the Fairmont Hotel had a place called the Venetian Room. It was a showroom. For 25 bucks, you could have dinner and a show. So he started taking me down there and I realized I had this record collection of great American songbook stuff and jazz, a lot, still have it, and I realized that I could take my album down there and get these performers to autograph them because they didn't have a green room at the showroom. The performer stayed in the hotel so they would come down and go back up the elevator, which was in the middle of the lobby, and that gave me an opportunity to intercept them before or after the show, and they were all very gracious, and I got to meet and get autographs from Carmen McRae and Sarah Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald and Cab Calloway and, oh my gosh, it was so exciting, Mel Torme and George Shearing and Keeley Smith and so much - Peggy Lee. You all may remember Peter Athens. He was a good friend of ours and from Holland Hall, before I met him, and he was down there for our, when we went to see Peggy Lee, and so I hightailed it after the show to get Miss Lee to autograph my album. She was very gracious, and I came back and Peter was so funny. He said, I can't believe you stalked Peggy Lee. I said, I did not stalk Peggy Lee. I escorted Miss Lee to the elevator and managed to get an autograph while I was there, but those performers, you know, these huge names, they didn't have any entourage. There were no security guards or anything, and when we saw Torme, Mel Torme, there were three of us. There was Terry and his old friend Tim, our friend Tim, and me, and another friend named Barry, and we were on the front row, the four of us, and Shearing was playing the piano. He was playing a solo. Torme was standing on the stage, just kind of acknowledging the audience sort of thing, and he looked down at us, looked at the four of us, and he said, what, no dames? You got us there, Mel, you know. I thought if I had gotten my wits together, I would have said, no, they like Jack Jones, because he and Jack Jones were big rivals, you know, but anyway, sorry, that was a little diversion, but so when Ella Fitzgerald died, and we found out about it at the Pride picnic, it just broke my heart, but in fact, when the PAC opened, I took one of the girls from high school to see Ella Fitzgerald as the opening of the PAC, and we're still friends today. She and Terry sing together in the Tulsa Chorale, so it's... Toby Jenkins: So, just curious, the library is at the Pride picnics, you've done this, were y'all, was the senior management ever telling you that they were getting complaints, or people protesting? Barry Hensley: No, and if there were, they at that time were very good about saying just what we discussed earlier, which is, you know, the library is there for everybody. Dennis Neill: When did PFLAG or TOHR become involved in helping you with the displays? �28 Barry Hensley: That must have been after I left the Central Library, which would be in 95, so... Toby Jenkins: Because I was always led to believe it was Mary Waidner and Nancy McDonald who got the... Barry Hensley: Well, Mary was certainly there, she was certainly involved, she worked there, yeah. Yeah, but it was a fun time, an exciting time, you know, to be there, and now, you know, every Pride parade, there's the bookmobile, you know, we have to go say hi. Dennis Neill: You really laid the basis for that outreach by the public libraries into our community? Barry Hensley: Yeah, and we never had any problem getting staff to participate. It was like, oh sure, I'll come down and do that. Toby Jenkins: But you included the books in Tom's publication, making sure the community... Barry Hensley: Yep, whatever new materials came out. Toby Jenkins: ...we have his collection domain, Tom's… Dennis Neill: Yes, all of those newspapers are digitized and available to the public. Barry Hensley: Great, that's great. Well, my columns are in there every month. Toby Jenkins: So we can go back and look at his… Dennis Neill: And we have a video from when one of the news stations covered the library display, and it featured, I think, maybe Nancy in that discussion or somebody, so it was Channel 2, Channel 6, but you laid the basis for all of that opportunity to expose people to... Toby Jenkins: Thank you. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Thank you. Barry Hensley: It was very exciting. Terry Baxter: And that John, straight man who's in the library, says, oh yeah, go ahead. And that was kind of good, too. Toby Jenkins: I'm curious, because, I mean, it became a lifeline. It became my salvation, my deliverance to an authentic life. Why were there so many books in the library around these issues? Were they asking you to research this and find the books you all needed in your collection? How was that happening? Barry Hensley: Well, I'm sure Mary was a big part of that. I was not at that time. I wasn't a part of collection building in any way. I mean, anybody could recommend. You know that we get something. But there are national booksellers, you know, who contract with libraries and bookstores to get the newest releases and whatever, and the library will �29 put their parameters in. We would like to do releases on these topics and this and this and this, and it was kind of becoming, you know, in the mid-90s. It was kind of becoming a thing that was being discussed and so the library wanted to be on top of it and, as I say, I'm sure Mary was a part of that, making sure that because she was in… Dennis Neill: Well, and part of it, you might recall, is that Mary and Nancy worked together to raise money that we would contribute to help buy those books. Barry Hensley: Yeah, that's so cool. Dennis Neill: So we did that, both through PFLAG and through TOHR, and there used to be a lot of the library plates and we would give them the books they noted it was donated. Toby Jenkins: So, was it wish lists? They would publish a wish list and then y'all would Dennis Neill: It was all very informal, but Mary and Nancy said we need to acquire these books, let's raise the money and we'd help the library buy those books. So we'd send out funds, probably to the library trust and they'd use those funds then to purchase those books. And then there were plates they would put in the front inside cover donated by... Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just want to take this opportunity to tell you connect some dots, Scott Goodpaster. He and I had ended up in a confirmation class at St Jerome's and he was very well read and he knew I was kind of newly out and he said, well, you need to read the Gay classics. And so he gave me a whole list of books that I needed to read that were at the Tulsa Library, like Giovanni's Room. You know several of those books. Barry Hensley: That's so cool. Toby Jenkins: and I would come out with a stack of books like that. Barry Hensley: That's the idea. Toby Jenkins: He had a list of movies, so I'd check the movies out. That's great, all right, anything. So this is. It's getting very lengthy, but it's just so good we're finding out anything else you want to tell us. Barry Hensley: I want to talk about when Terry started going to College Hill Presbyterian Church over here by TU. So he was working in the Finance and Revenue Department with Gary Watts and Gary said: this is 1994, same year, very exciting year. And Gary said: you sing, don't you Terry? He said well, yeah, he hadn't sung really since he'd been back here in Tulsa, but he'd grown up singing and been in the Turtle Creek Chorale. And Gary said: well, my little church needs some tenors if you'd like to come audition us. Terry Baxter: Well, that's not how he said it. He said: if you'd like to come visit and see. And so I actually went to audition. I wanted to hear if it was a real organ- and it was a real pipe organ. And I wanted to hear what the choir sounded like, because I didn't want to lend my voice to a ragtag. And it was a small choir but they sounded great- still do, �30 amazingly- and so I started going there to sing- not anything to do with it being church, really, but to have a singing outlet to go to. They just so happened to have a party two weeks after I first went there, and so the choir director invited me to the party, and it later came out at the party because she and I went into my car and were talking that she was gay and had a girlfriend. But the girlfriend was married and it was just one of those type things. But after they became girlfriend and girlfriend, the lady and her husband stayed at College Hill. Nobody chose sides, it was just: oh well, I guess she finally found herself. But everybody was that way and I felt for the first time in my life that it was a group of people who didn't think you had to reconcile being gay with being a Christian. Toby Jenkins: And who would have been the minister at the time was Radford in there. Terry Baxter: Radford was the next called minister. David Caldwell was there. It was his last day as minister when I went that first time and then we had the interim pastor and that's the one that asked me: how do I reconcile being gay with being a Christian? And I told him that you don't need to reconcile. That, which I think was an odd answer, that he did not expect, that there's no reconciliation necessary. Toby Jenkins: Very profound. Barry Hensley: So Terry had suggested that I start coming to College Hill. I didn't want to do that. From my experience at First Pres- I didn't have an organized religion at all. But I went and the people were so genuine and so open, friendly and outgoing and welcoming. I thought, is this a cult or something, because I'm not used to this sort of organized religion at all. And turns out they are just great, great people. And it also turned out that there were several refugees from First Prez and my mom's generation. She had, I think there were three ladies that she had known back in the early 50s. They were all in the mariners class together when they were all newlyweds back in the Eisenhower era, and so she started coming as well. So it became this really nice, nice place that is wonderful… Terry Baxter: And your brother David started coming. Barry Hensley: David started coming. It was just wonderful… It's a wonderful place and you're able to have a traditional sort of service experience that I was used to from when I've been a kid, but built around this welcoming environment, it's just a really neat little place. So I want to get College Hill a shout out. Mary Bishop-Baldwin. And having an openly gay minister. Barry Hensley: That's correct. Terry Baxter: Yeah, we actually suggested to him that he talked to you guys. Yeah, let's hope he does. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, he just retired. Todd Freeman. Yeah, yeah, he's gonna stay in Tulsa. �31 Barry Hensley: Yes, for at least for right now. Toby Jenkins: He's traveling all over the world. So you would have been there, because I think, wasn't it under Radford that they became a More Light congregation. [More Light is a network of Presbyterian churches which are open and affirming for the LGBTQ+ community.] Barry Hensley: Yeah, Terry was a part of that. Toby Jenkins: Talk about that a little bit. Terry Baxter: Well, there was a discerning process going on and and I was not on session, which is a governing body in the Presbyterian Church at that time, but a friend of ours, Margaret Watson, Margaret Duncan at the time was- was on it and they, they just decided that the Presbyterian Church in Tulsa needed to have an open and outward exposure. To contrast, Kirk of the Hills and First Prez. First Prez has always been kind of the don't ask, don't tell type. Seems like it's gotten worse since they got their new pastor. But Kirk of the Hills, you know, when the Presbyterian Church ultimately decided that it was okay to ordain gays and and that kind of stuff, Kirk of the Hills just [left]. Not to speak bad of the Presbyterian Church. But the Presbytery gave them a good deal when they let them keep their building. Toby Jenkins: Well, it required a lawsuit… Terry Baxter: But the church actually won and they still turned around and allowed them to purchase it for a million dollars. Even though the church won the lawsuit and could have retained the property, as is in the Presbyterian bylaws, the presbytery was nice and said: give us a million dollars, we'll let you go and be whoever you want to be, and- and that's probably the Christian thing to do- but for people who are hoping to make strides in improving the acceptability of gay people. You don't want people like that to win, you want them to suffer a loss. Who knows, the church ultimately won because they're not part of it and so those people can be away. Then we called Radford Rader, who, initially, was instrumental in pushing for the More Light stuff to continue, even though he had done his associate work and youth pastor work at Kirk of the Hills, which is kind of interesting. So even Radford's position had moved and grown and he became instrumental as a straight man, pushing for college to become More Light and accepting. Actually, when we got married, we asked him if he would do the service and he said: well, you know, the denomination is still officially not agreeing with the right of gay people to have a commitment ceremony, and, and I could lose my retirement pension fund if I did that, even though it was in Canada. Barry Hensley: That was in 2005. We decided to go to Canada. We never dreamed it would happen here, but thanks to you [Mary Bishop-Baldwin], other people like you. So we ended up married in Canada, yes, but so he and we became More Light. The Session which is a, I said before the governing body. They've always been. When prohibition came, they were always not for prohibition. What was the next? �32 Terry Baxter: They were very anxious for women to be able to vote. In World War II they would, the members of the church, would take in the international Asian students who were being harassed at TU because of their heritage, and the Japanese. Barry Hensley: If you looked Asian. Terry Baxter: Yeah, if your eyes were not like our eyes. Barry Hensley: And they were behind, they were the first, my understanding is, they were the first church in Tulsa to have an integrated membership, that there was a black family that moved in in the 1950s that became members. And then the gay rights stuff, and they've just been on the right side of every one of these topics. It's a wonderful, wonderful place. Toby Jenkins: So after Radford they called Todd Freeman, and he has been there... Barry Hensley: He was there 18 years. Terry Baxter: Yeah, Todd, I was, I was on session and actually on the pastor nominating committee when we called Todd. It was kind of interesting story because we just could not find the right person, could not find the right person. And Todd hadn't even applied for the job. He was in Dallas at a church there. And we reposted it in all the Presbyterian outlets, I guess you call it, so that in order to get new applicants, because we just had not been able to find anybody that fit what we thought we needed. And a friend of his convinced him, because they saw that new posting, said this church is still looking for somebody, maybe you should apply for it. And he did, and he ended up being the successful applicant. I mean, the first time he came here, interestingly enough, at one of those More Light groupings where his church and we were also at one campsite together. Some of us had met him, didn't remember we had met him until we saw him. But he could preach a sermon, he could minister to people, and he wasn't stupid. He was intelligent. And so he just fit perfectly. And the average length of time for a pastor in a Presbyterian church is eight years, and he was there 18 years. So it was a good fit. It's gonna be hard to find somebody who… Barry Hensley: And unlike so many small churches, the membership is growing. It's not declining, and so many... Terry Baxter: And it's not going up by getting refugees from other churches, it's young. Toby Jenkins: You have several prominent community leaders, and I will say on record that that was the beautiful thing about Reverend Todd Freeman. He was such a good community collaborator. He worked with the interfaith community, he worked on social issues, he worked on issues that would expand services to marginalized communities. He was a very good fit for Tulsa, what we needed at that time. Terry Baxter: And if he does what he says he's gonna do, he's gonna continue doing that. He wants to do more of that, and being a pastor of a church sometimes gets in the way of doing more of that. So he just, I think he also wanted to retire so he wouldn't �33 have to be preaching all our funerals. Because so many of his friends are his age level or more. Toby Jenkins: I'll say this one more about him, then I have some questions about Terry at the City. During the marriage equality fight, which was a 10-year long journey from the time that Mary and Sharon and Gay and Sue filed their lawsuit, we were trying to educate our community and help people understand it better because there was such a religious objection component to it. Reverend Freeman and dozens of other clergy persons were so vital to us because we were able to get them to make statements, write articles that we could then get media publications so that they knew that it wasn't just all churches, all Christian congregations saw this one way. And when we got marriage equality and Tulsa World had their huge front page, there was First Presbyterian, their thoughts on it, me representing the organization of Oklahomans for Equality, and another, Asbury United Methodist, their pastors, conservatives. They had me sandwiched in an Oreo, and then whoever was there decided they needed to get another reflection from religious community. So Todd Freeman, so it went from me being stuck in the middle to it was two to one. He gave a religious perspective on it, and I was always so grateful. Because we had trouble finding, at that point, I mean, United Methodists were not decided on it, the Episcopal Church was still trying to decide. Terry Baxter: And the Presbyterians hadn't decided on it then. When they finally did decide on it, he came out in the newspaper. Toby Jenkins: Anything else in your notes, Barry, that you feel like it's important that we cover? Because then I want to talk to Terry a little bit about, do you feel like we've... Barry Hensley: I'm good. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Well, I want to ask about your marriage. You say it was 2005, is that right? Barry Hensley: January. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: You went to Canada to get legally married there. When had marriage equality become the law in Canada? Barry Hensley: Not too long before that, I don't think. Terry Baxter: I think it was about three years. Barry Hensley: Yeah, just a few years. Terry Baxter: But it was interesting that when we went, you had to go to the capital of the province that you were getting married in to get the license first. So we went to Vancouver first to get the license. And we didn't know our way around Vancouver. And so we went in a drugstore and said, where's the Marriage License Bureau? And they �34 said, go down the street. They didn't just tell us, go down the street. Oh, you're getting married? Oh, how wonderful. And it was... Barry Hensley: So cool. Terry Baxter: Then we went and he said, are we going in the right direction? And another person says, oh yeah, you're going in the right direction. And every place we went, the people were saying thank you for visiting us and congratulations. And it was so contrary to what it was like in the United States where everybody was, if they were anything... Toby Jenkins: A lot of protesters. Barry Hensley: Don't ask, don't tell. If they were supportive of you, it would just keep quiet. And we even went to a liquor store and they said... Toby Jenkins: So what year, what month would you have gotten married? Terry Baxter: January. Barry Hensley: And we went from Vancouver to Victoria. Beautiful little 1912 bed and breakfast in Victoria. And they were so nice. The couple that lived there, husband and wife, have since split up, I think. But they arranged everything. They arranged the marriage commissioner. They arranged the flowers. They arranged an after party. They arranged everything for us. It was just a wonderful experience. And we had just a handful of people. We had three friends from Tulsa. Tom Neal was one of them who came to our wedding. Very small. Dennis Neill: And I think maybe right before you all got married, two other individuals from Tulsa went there and got married in Vancouver and ended up living there permanently. Barry Hensley: Oh man, what a dream that would have been. Dennis Neill: And do you remember them? Were they an inspiration for your decision to go to Vancouver? Terry Baxter: Barry, we decided we wanted to do it and Barry got online to start looking at places. Barry Hensley: So where in Canada in January? Terry Baxter: Yeah, where is it warm in January? And we realized, well, on the coast there. Barry Hensley: That's right. Terry Baxter: It's warm in January. I mean, there were hummingbirds there in January. Barry Hensley: Oh, it's so beautiful. I just love it so much. Terry Baxter: So it was basically decided, where could we go in January in Canada to get married? And we had always wanted to pick a place that would be some place we could remember. And that's why we actually went to Victoria Island. �35 Toby Jenkins: Since 2005, you’d been together 25 years. Terry Baxter: We figured we knew each other well enough by then to get married. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Why was it important to you to have your marriage, your relationship legally recognized somewhere, even if it wouldn't be recognized… Terry Baxter: I think the main reason was at that time, we were hearing more and more about people who are having medical situations in hospitals where their partner, longtime partner, wasn't able to be involved in decisions or even visit them in some places. And we had gone through all sorts of hoops. Barry Hensley: We spent thousands of dollars making sure that we had all the documentation we needed to protect ourselves. Terry Baxter: Even though you have that stuff, there's just assumptions if you're married that are made by people that you're gonna have 15 pages of documentation. But if you have a marriage license, it's just instant proof. And interestingly, I mean, I'm glad we got married in Canada because if the United States changes things and wants to retroactively do away with that, like they are with the people who have changed their sex on their birth certificates, they can't undo the sovereign act of the government of Canada. So the Supreme Court can do all they want to and we're still married. Barry Hensley: But the Defense of Marriage Act had just been a big thing at that time. And so we really realized that it wasn't gonna be in the United States for some time to come, which was fine. Terry Baxter: We were surprised, but. Barry Hensley: Oh, we were so pleasantly surprised. Toby Jenkins: Terry, what would you like to tell us about working in municipal government in the city of Tulsa? Terry Baxter: Working for the government in the city of Tulsa was very interesting. One of the best things about the city is people don't look at the city or any government job for that matter as very opportunity filled. The pay is lower than in the private sector. A month after I got hired, a private company offered to hire me, and I told the people at the city what they were going to hire me for, and my boss actually went to the city commission at the time and asked for special personnel action to raise my salary to what the people were going to pay in order to keep me. So that was pretty good. But you have opportunity because the city's involved in so many different things, and so is the federal government. I think that's one thing that our current administration didn't realize when they got into office is that there are professional people doing professional jobs that you have no idea what they're doing, and they've got backgrounds to fit those jobs, and you can't just put somebody in there and hope it gets done right. But the other thing that does is if you're working for the city, you have the opportunity to move around to different jobs. �36 I always, and maybe it was part of how you protect yourself when you're growing up if you're gay, is you learn more about everything than most other people do, so they can't question your knowledge. And so even though I was working in the finance department when I first started, I learned about all the other departments, what they did, how they did it, how they interfaced with each other. If you remember at that time in 1985, 86, personal computers were first being introduced into the workplace, and people were still smoking in the workplace, so all those beige personal computers quickly became yellow from the cigarette smoke. But I started learning more about the personal computers and going more in-depth, not just how to use them as a software user, but how they work. Toby Jenkins: Did you take classes or study the manuals? Terry Baxter: I took some classes. Most of it was self-study and getting in there and just doing it. Barry Hensley: I had my own IT guy who was great. Terry Baxter: We had just installed a point-of-sale system right after, not too long after I got there. So all the cashiers, instead of writing paper receipts and then going to the key punch people to put into the computer, they would actually transact it through the computer. And it was written in a strange form of basic, not visual basic, just basic. And so I kind of learned how to program so that we could, if we needed to be able to issue a different kind of license, I could do the programming instead of hiring people to come in and do it from outside. So I kind of learned that, was in the finance department supervising the licensing area, which meant making sure that taxicab drivers were licensed and insured and all that kind of stuff. And I have an interesting little story. One year when a new taxicab company was trying to get a license in town, I explained to them what the rules were. And so he went away and then he came back two weeks later and said, I need to get that license. And I said, well, where's your certificate of insurance? So one of my positions was regulating taxi cabs, and this is a quick story. But this man wanted to start a new taxi cab, he needed a certificate of insurance. And for some reason he couldn't get one. He came to my office and started taking money out and setting it on the table, said, how much is it going to take for me to get my certificate of convenience and necessity? He kept putting these stacks of $20 bills in the bands on the table. I said, you don't have enough money. Just go use that money and get yourself some insurance and you'll get approved. And so as soon as he left the office with his money, I called the police department and talked to their legal person and he says, well, you should have taken the money. I said, why? And they said, well, he can't be guilty of, we can't find him guilty of trying to bribe you if we have no evidence. And I said, yes, but if I took the money, I would have been guilty of accepting a bribe and he could have gotten me in trouble for that more than you could get him in trouble. So it �37 just didn't make any sense to me that you had to have, the proof was that you did it. But how could I not, how could I do it and not be guilty of doing it? Toby Jenkins: So in that capacity, you actually had people who tried to persuade y'all or they tried to bribe you. To persuade you or pressure them to get their permits? Terry Baxter: Yeah, and because you couldn't do business without the city license. You know, a restaurant couldn't do business without a city license. Toby Jenkins: And you couldn't sell liquor at the Pride event, unless the city said so. Terry Baxter: One of the other interesting things was that, so then they created the Revenue Collections and Enforcement Division, and I was the first administrator of that division, and it was created because the state was not doing a good job of collecting city sales tax. The city got the state statutes and it said, and there was no reason in our agreement with the Tax Commission that we couldn't also collect our taxes. We couldn't tell them they can't collect it, but we could make an effort to get them to pay it to them for them to collect it. I started being the person sending letters out and visiting places that were in arrears on their city sales taxes. It was an interesting job, but I couldn't talk about it with anybody because, you know, there were a lot of restaurants people really loved to go to that we'd end up going out of business because I put them out of business. So I won't tell you who they were, but let's just say some of the favorite restaurants in the mid-80s that suddenly quit business because they weren't paying their sales taxes. And the same with hotel and lodging taxes. Hotels and motels collect a tax from the people who stay there, and it's collected on behalf of the city, and the entity gets to remit the money to the city and keep part of it if they do it in a timely manner. And there was a particular hotel that didn't do that, and that particular hotel operator had a brother who was a bigwig in Tulsa education circles who called the mayor. And so the mayor called me and asked me, have I done everything I could to make sure that that guy has opportunities? And I said, I've done everything I can under the ordinance. Are you asking me to see if there's another way to do it? And the mayor at the time said, no, I just want to make sure. But I got the feeling that he was trying to convince me to look the other way for a while. But it's interesting. So you have some interesting things in the city government. And then the reorganization of the government came around, and it became a city council form instead of a city commission form. And so the Finance and Revenue Department was merged into the Treasury Department under the Finance Director. The Treasury Manager, she and I just, we were really good friends until I worked for her, and then all of a sudden I was some kind of threat. I seem to have that pattern with female bosses. They're afraid of me. And maybe it's because of the discrimination they get in the workplace. When a guy comes up and is below their position but is really good at what they do, they're going back to thinking, well, that person's going to take my job away from me because that always happens when a man and a woman come up competing against each other. �38 Well, I don't think it always happens. I was a gay man, but I didn't have a sign on me. So I went from there to the Fire Department in their IT area, and my job at first was making sure all the fire houses were connected through a very obscure form of CO land, which was a central office land that AT&T offered that nobody bought. And so they basically gave it to the fire departments to use for free because we didn't have network connections between the fire department buildings. And then I went to 9-1-1 and got a new computer dispatch system put in. 2000 came in, and we stayed up. Everybody had their hands on deck at 9-1-1, and most of the calls we got were people calling, I just want to see if 9-1-1 worked. Toby Jenkins: So just so our viewers will understand, it was Y2K. Explain that. Terry Baxter: Y2K, people who wrote computer programs never anticipated that they would have to have a four-year date field. When it became 99, it'd go back to 00 the next year instead of 2000, and computers would go crazy because then all of a sudden you're back a hundred years from where you were just yesterday. And so every computer application had to be changed to have a four-year date for the year instead of a two-year date. And 9-1-1 was a fairly old system, especially in Tulsa, because we were one of the first places that actually had digital 9-1-1 services. And so we had to go back and work with AT&T and the vendors to fix all those computers. Everybody was expecting the sky to fall when 2000 rolled over from 1999. Barry Hensley: So Terry's down there at the office, they're all waiting to see what's going to happen. They're all sitting at home, are the lights going to go off, you know, what's going to happen? Toby Jenkins: This was real anxiety. Terry Baxter: It was, it was. Toby Jenkins: We thought planes might fall out of the sky. Terry Baxter: A lot of money was spent fixing things in anticipation of that so it wouldn't happen. And I guess it was money well spent because the sky didn't fall. And the next day we didn't go back 100 years. We've gone back 100 years in other ways now. But it wasn't for year 2000. And then, so then I was there for a while. And then another reorganization came under Mayor Taylor where she took all the IT areas and moved them into one centralized IT department. I got moved out of the 9-1-1 public safety communications into IT and became a project manager there in IT projects. And then I went to the mayor's review group, performance review group, for a year. And then back to 9-1-1 as director for a year. Because it got taken away from IT but not put into police or fire because they were competing for it. And so the mayor made it a separate entity and I was over there for that one-year period. And then he just decided to put it over into the police department where it still is. Then I went back to IT as the manager of the project management group and that's when I retired. So I was involved in a lot of different areas. And I take that as they gave �39 me the opportunity to be involved in those areas because the city requires jobs to be posted internally before they go externally. And if a qualified applicant applies for it then they're not required to accept that applicant, but they're strongly encouraged to give that applicant the opportunity to succeed or fail in that position. So much so that they have a policy that for the first 90 days, actually you're on probation for a year, but for the first 90 days it's kind of like no fault. The other department, if they backfill your position and you're not successful in the one you went to, you can actually go back to your old position. So usually there's a vacancy for 90 days. Toby Jenkins: So let me ask this for our viewers. So you're working in civil service, basically municipal civil service. Every time a new mayor came in, did the people that worked for the city of Tulsa, were they afraid they would be fired because the new mayor can... Terry Baxter: The new mayor has influence over civil service positions and the new mayor hires whoever they want for their own office. But the civil service protections have policies in place that they just can't fire you to be firing you for no cause. Toby Jenkins: Why is that critical, Terry? Terry Baxter: That is critical because if you did that and you fired for no cause and you cleaned out everything every time a new mayor came in, the expertise that is necessary to do the day-to-day stuff that citizens expect to have done, I just cannot imagine if a new water commissioner got in and they fired everybody, then how would our water get, the chemicals get adjusted appropriately because all the chemists were gone. People don't realize how many professional people there are in any government, city, county, state, federal government. You can't just run it like a business because the business is so diverse. You have to have people with expertise in all those different kinds of business. You can have a business philosophy. You can be overarching, we want to make sure that we're efficient, but to just say efficiency is to get rid of half the people and then don't even pick the people you get rid of. You could get rid of half the people in a lot of departments, but you better spend some time evaluating which people are the half that you get rid of because some of them you can't do without. It's an interesting thing. Politics is very interesting. I think the civil service part of politics, of government, keeps politics from basically throwing the baby away with the bath water every time a new elected official comes in. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, it's such a dangerous thing for elected officials to be able to gut an entire community, a nation, a state. Terry Baxter: And it's also difficult for the citizens, because if you don't have consistency between things that occur politically, then your life is less certain, and you don't know, you know, everybody's life is kind of up in the air about what's going to be happening and how you're going to be accomplishing the goals and objectives of the people who elected the people in the first place. �40 It's very unfortunate that it's almost like the public needs to have an education on how government is supposed to work, and then start assessing, can we make it better, rather than just saying, oh, government is just a waste, there's too many of it, too much of it, let's chop off half of it and see what happens. And it's frustrating, because people don't get the things that they need to have. I would hate it if the police department lost half the police force, because who knows if it would lose the right half. Toby Jenkins: Right. What year did you retire from the city of Tulsa? Terry Baxter: 2017. Toby Jenkins: 2017. How many mayors did you work for and city council? Terry Baxter: Worked for seven mayors. Some not very long, some longer. I mean, who remembers Mayor Crawford? He came from out of town, and as soon as he was not mayor any longer, he left. Let's see, the first was Terry Young, all the way back to the 84. I wasn't working there in 84 when the flood came, but I was in Tulsa the night it happened. Toby Jenkins: The Memorial Day flood, Memorial Weekend flood. Terry Baxter: The big flood before we had stormwater detention ponds. And that was under the county, out of the commission form of government at the time. The commission worked real hard to cooperate with each other to get the Department of Stormwater Management created out of people from streets, out of people from water and sewer, so that they could start figuring out how to control the damage that the floods in Tulsa did. Barry Hensley: They were professionals, they knew what they were doing, and it worked. Terry Baxter: And if they had done it in a political way, we may not have the safety that we have now from floods and storms, because it would never have happened, because the politics would have kept people from working with each other. Toby Jenkins: So you would have been in the city in 2010 when we passed the ordinance where you could not be discriminated against because of your sexual orientation. I'm just curious, prior to that ordinance and after the ordinance, was there a different temperament at City Hall? Did more people feel... Terry Baxter: Well, interestingly, the ordinance got passed a couple years after the city actually put that in the employees' anti-discrimination stuff. So the HR department and the mayor at the time were progressive enough to put that in the policies. And I know of a couple cases where before that was in the city's policy, and in both cases, the person who felt discriminated against because they were different prevailed with the Civil Service Commission. So even the Civil Service Commission was... It's interesting what you have in the government. We had a person actually transition from being male to female while they were in their job at the city, and they retained their job at the city while they were through that whole process. And it was very difficult at that time because some people were very �41 discriminatory toward that person. The person needed to have a restroom to use, and nobody wanted them to use their restroom. And so the mayor said, well, she can come use my restroom. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what mayor that was? Terry Baxter: Kathy Taylor, when she first got elected, which was interesting. After the transition occurred, life still is not simple for that person, because people will be people. And he, she, afterwards, he, before, and since he was there as a he and a she, depending upon who you're talking about, it depends upon whether he was a he or she was a she. But, you know, she had courage to go. I cannot imagine going through that process in the same position, in the same job. And ultimately, she relocated to a different city, because her marriage didn't stick, even though at first they were trying to make it work. And so it was, it was a very interesting thing. But the point of that was, is the city realized that their employees needed some protection, and so they built that in the policy. And then later, the city council decided, hey, maybe we need to have that kind of protection in the city. Toby Jenkins: Y'all would have gone through that same thing at the library, because I remember when... I remember when you got ready to hire the new director, I can't remember his name right now, Gary. Barry Hensley: Gary. Toby Jenkins: That was one of the requirements he had, wasn't it? Barry Hensley: Well, years before, I'm talking about 1990 or so, Mike Williams, who was the head of the circulation department at that time, I was in the InterLibrary Loan, we went to Pat Woodrum, lovely lady, because there were no protections at all at that time, and we just were asking to slip sexual orientation into the policies, because we weren't under the city or the county's jurisdiction. We were our own thing, you know. It would just need to go through the Library Commission to get changed, and she wasn't ready to do that at that time. She said, well, are you all having a... is there a problem? You know, is there an issue I need to be aware of? And we said, no, we're just kind of trying to prevent an issue from happening, and she wasn't ready to do it at that time. I don't remember when it actually went in, but it was kind of a non-event by then. Toby Jenkins: Terry, anything else about your time at the city? And you mentioned you saw a transgender individual who had a kind of a rough time and experienced some harassment. Did you ever feel that you were targeted? Did you ever feel like you were impacted by people who knew about your private life and maybe were just being discriminatory? And did you witness any of that? Terry Baxter: I don't know if I was lucky or just... I never had that personally. I did witness it in other departments. It's, you know, one of the things about the city is it's got blue-collar jobs and it's got white-collar jobs, and I always was in a white-collar job. And maybe there's less discriminatory action in that atmosphere than in the blue-collar job, �42 but I knew of a couple of individuals in Water and Sewer that were discriminated against and overlooked for promotions. And that was one of the other reasons that HR, I guess, was interesting because the change in the city's policy was started by HR, not by an external force. So they just realized that, and probably realized after there had been a couple instances where people had filed complaints with the Civil Service Commission and those complaints were upheld, that they were indeed discriminated against for things that had nothing to do with a job, that there needed to be a policy so that they wouldn't have to have hearings. Toby Jenkins: Let me ask you just your perspective, having worked for the city, understanding how government works, municipal government, why have we had so much trouble with the City of Tulsa getting counselors and mayors to push forward an ordinance where for the city you cannot discriminate against people in the public spaces, in public accommodations, where businesses, because this was an issue I raised repeatedly, we took them stories repeatedly with multiple city councilors, multiple mayors to say that people in our community would be denied services at businesses. Everything from restaurant supply businesses, to hotels, toTerry Baxter: Well, the reason is called politics. It's because elected officials do what they perceive the people who elected them expect them to do. And in Tulsa, and in Oklahoma, and apparently, quite many places in this United States, there are people who can't see past the end of their nose, who are in positions of authority. And what they perceive may be a misrepresentation of what their electorate wishes them to do. But it's been going on forever. A friend of Barry's, the one that he was talking about earlier, Barry knew a person who was working for the city before we even were working here. And they would go to hotels and try to rent a room. And an African American person would go to a hotel to rent a room and they wouldn't do it. So then she asked one of Barry's friends and another friend of hers to go and be obviously gay and try to rent a room, and they would rent a room. So that's been going on since a lot… Barry Hensley: That's 1979 or 80, something like that. Terry Baxter: It's just people, and people who don't think they have to, who feel that they have been given permission by their religion, by their government, they decide not to support people who don't believe the same way they do. Barry Hensley: Apparently, empathy is a bad word these days, and I can't quite comprehend that. I can't wrap my head around that. Terry Baxter: We had a friend of mine who worked with me at the city say that you can't have empathy for someone unless you are exactly that kind of person. So you cannot have empathy for a minority unless you are that minority. And that's contrary to the whole definition of what empathy is, but apparently a lot of people believe that. You can't have empathy for me because you aren't me. Barry Hensley: And- You don't know what my struggle has been.. It's very strange. �43 Toby Jenkins: Anything else about your time at the city of Tulsa, and anything else you feel like you want to include in our time today? Terry Baxter: No, I'm just glad that there are those people in this world who still want to push forward and not go backward. And we hope to be part of that, but we're old folks now. So I'm lucky. I'm happy to see what a lot of the younger people are doing, that they're picking up the mantle and not letting the right wing take the charge. It's good. Toby Jenkins: Anything you would like to say to the generation coming after us or people who see this interview, maybe in 100 years when somebodyBarry Hensley: I just hope they can comprehend what people have gone through to get to the point where we are, and that life is too short to go through all of this drama of preventing other people from living their lives. I will never comprehend why that would be so important to me. I don't care what you do, as long as it's not illegal. But I think we've just been very fortunate. I know I have, my entire life, it has fallen into place. Finding Terry, getting the job, having such a good fit, inheriting my parents' house, all of this, being able to retire and travel. And life has just given me every possible break it could, and I don't understand it. There's no strategy on my part. I don't know how it happens, but I'm very grateful for it. And thank you all for recording the histories of so many people while you can. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Our pleasure. Terry Baxter: We're all different, but we're all trying to struggle to survive and help each other survive. That's the important thing. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And it's our honor to be able to talk to people like you and tell your stories. Barry Hensley: This has been quite an honor for us. Dennis Neill: Wonderful. Thank you for sharing your story and your 46 years together. Barry Hensley: We'll have a big party at 50, I can tell you that. Toby Jenkins: This is June 30th, 2026. Today, Dennis Neill, Mary Bishop-Baldwin, Toby Jenkins, have had the pleasure here at Oklahomans for Equality, the History Project, to interview Terry Baxter and Barry Hensley. Thank you for your service to the citizens of Tulsa County. Thank you for your service to our community and for being such good examples of we're here and we're queer, so get used to it. Terry Baxter: Happy Pride. Barry Hensley: Back at you. Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Terry Baxter and Barry Hensley Interview Subject The topic of the resource Terry Baxter and Barry Hensley Oral History Project Interview from June 30, 2026 Description An account of the resource This episode features a conversation with two long-time partners from Tulsa, Oklahoma, sharing their life stories, experiences with the LGBTQ+ community, and insights into the history of gay life in Texas and Oklahoma. Discover their journey through love, family rejection, activism, and resilience. In this episode, Terry Baxter and Barry Hensley share their experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, their careers in public service, and personal stories of love and resilience. Discover how their efforts have shaped community acceptance and the importance of authenticity. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins on June 30, 2026, transcribed by Dennis Neill on July 10, 2026. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Barry Hensley, Terry Baxter, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 30, 2026; July 10, 2026 2026 activism AIDS AIDS/HIV Barry Hensley coming out community Dennis Neill Diversity family Gay Rights HIV/AIDs LGBT history marriage equality OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript photo photos Pride Terry Baxter Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa https://history.okeq.org/files/original/b95930bb43b6204cc0b535ce32caa168.mp4 469e654a90e50910f02a606edc370ad8 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/de83922a814abfccb89b44324379c8b2.pdf 24694ed11bcd4bf4f24f336d45fea72a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Tom Neal Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill Date: April 30, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, May 23, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Tom Neal Summary In this in-depth interview, Tom Neal shares his life journey, from growing up in Oklahoma to becoming a community activist and publisher. He discusses his experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, the evolution of Tulsa's community spaces, and his reflections on social progress and challenges. Keywords LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa community, activism, journalism, HIV/AIDS, LGBTQ+ rights, community building, personal story Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 00:29 Tom Neal's Early Life and Family Background 01:15 Education and Early Influences 02:11 School Experiences and French Class Antics 03:11 College Years and Architectural Studies 04:21 Moving Back to Tulsa and Community Involvement 07:16 Growing Up LGBTQ+ in Tulsa 08:38 Realization of Sexual Identity and Puberty 09:46 Early Role Models and Family Support 11:20 First Awareness of Being Different 12:28 Family Reactions and Relationships 13:54 Exploring Sexuality and Personal Growth 15:16 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Organizations and Activism 16:42 Community Engagement in Dallas and Tulsa 18:40 Founding Tulsa Family News 2 �20:05 Courage to Be Open and Advocate 22:12 Memories of Bruce Goff and Architectural Roots 24:08 First Encounters with HIV/AIDS in Los Angeles 27:24 Activism and Civil Rights Work 35:19 Journalism and Publishing Journey 42:54 Proudest Achievements and Challenges 44:17 Memorable Moments and Mistakes in Publishing 45:24 Reflections on Community and Progress 50:22 Involvement with Oklahoma LGBTQ+ Organizations 58:51 Early Days of the LGBTQ+ Center in Tulsa 01:06:49 Community Challenges and Progress 01:11:49 The Impact of Media and Community Scattering 01:16:46 Reflections on Activism and Community Building 01:23:18 Future Plans and Personal Reflections Tom Neal Oral History Interview April 30, 2026 Dennis Neill: Good morning. It is April the 30th, 2026. I am Dennis Neill, and I am in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library at the Oklahoma Equality Center, and I'm here with Tom Neal. We have the pleasure of interviewing him, and with me is Mary Bishop-Baldwin, an archivist that is working with us here at the Center. So Tom, would you introduce yourself by mentioning your name and your age and where you grew up? Tom Neal: I'm Tom Neal. I'm 68. I was born in Oklahoma City, but we moved here when I was three, so I pretty much consider myself being from Tulsa. Dennis Neill: And tell me a little bit about your early life, your family life, your education as an adolescent. Tom Neal: Sure, so my father is a retired anesthesiologist, and he moved here to start the anesthesia department at St. Francis, and of course at that time, St. Francis was the edge of the city, and our little housing development, Holiday Hills, was about the only only place to live that was near the hospital. I think that was even before the LaFortunes donated their farm to become LaFortune Park. I don't remember this, but that's what I remember my mom saying. I have four brothers, two older, two younger. I'm biologically related to my three younger, two younger brothers, excuse me, and my two older brothers were adopted by my family, though they're biologically related to each other. Went through TPS, Carnegie, which I'm proud to say is still considered one of the best schools in the city, elementary schools, Nimitz, and then Memorial, and most people usually get thrown out of private schools and wind up going to a public school. I managed to get thrown out of a public school and wound up finishing up at Holland Hall my last couple of years, so I'm not sure it's a distinction to be proud of, but it's part of my history. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What did you do to get kicked out? 3 �Tom Neal: I think I smarted off to one of the disciplinarians who was a coach, and they had sent me home for something, and I was feeling oppositional, so instead of going home, which most kids probably want to go home, I went to my French class, and he came and threatened to drag me bodily out of the French class, and so I spoke to him only in French at that point, which of course, and he later told my parents that I had cussed him out in French. I don't know, I didn't know when he cussed words in French, so that wasn't actually true, but anyway….wound up being one of the best things for me academically. I spent a couple semesters, well, I spent one semester at the American College in Paris. I was a little too young as a freshman to be that far away from home. There's a reason you do it in junior year, but I came back and went to the University of Tulsa for a couple semesters, and then I transferred to Rice in Houston and finished up there, class of 1980, with a degree in art and architectural history. Not very employable, but very interesting, and also a degree that involved a lot of writing, which may be relevant to other things. I also wound up having pretty intensive writing instruction when I was at Holland Hall, so that was a benefit there, too, as well as a couple of really good French teachers at Holland Hall. Then I moved from Houston to Dallas, started going to architecture school at the University of Texas at Arlington, and then left to go to an architecture program in Los Angeles, lived there for about four years, and then decided that the day that they had, well, this is just circumstantial, but the day that they had both an earthquake and a tornado in Los Angeles is the day that I moved back to Tulsa. So, and then worked here in Tulsa for a couple years, particularly for two architects, Kathleen Page and Rachel Williams-Zabrowski. Wonderful, wonderful people, who, after I worked with them maybe two years, Kathleen took me aside and said, we're firing you, not because we don't like your work, but because you need to go back to school and finish your architecture degree, because I had begun it, but not finished it. And I said, well, gee, thanks, maybe, but, so I wound up shopping my credits to Oklahoma State and then to OU, and Oklahoma State, they're like, well, you didn't do it here, you need to start from the beginning, and OU said, we're going to give you credit for almost everything, so I'm a Sooner, that was a no-brainer. So Rice, 1980, University of Oklahoma, 1989. Lived in Dallas again and then came back to Tulsa after my mother had an aneurysm, which she survived, thanks be to God, and have been in Tulsa. And that was probably, well, you [Dennis] and I knew each other before. I had met you when TOHR was almost new, and you and Doug [Hartson] and all that crew were doing stuff at the Aaronson Auditorium. But I think that might have been when I was working for Kathleen. And then I came back in 93 and got involved in, went to Pride, at that point still kind of in the wilds of Mohawk Park, and kind of got involved in the community. Kelly was leading things, Kelly Kirby was leading things then, and kind of went from there. Before I had a little, I'd been involved in a retail, a lesbian owned retail store in Dallas on Cedar Springs, in the heart of a kind of gay village. And so I tried to recreate that in Tulsa, even though it's a very different dynamic. Dallas had that concentrated 4 �little bit of community, whereas now and then, Tulsa's community is kind of scattered. And I had a store at the Silver Star Retail Store for about a year. Dennis Neill: Do you remember what year that would have been? Tom Neal: That would have been about probably 94-ish, 1994-ish. Dennis Neill: And was that Tomfoolery? Tom Neal: Yes, it was called Tomfoolery. Yeah, and it was a, kind of like Tulsa Family News, it was a, compared to some LGBT retail establishments, it was a pretty vanilla, clean, I didn't have things that you wouldn't, that you'd be ashamed to show your mother, for example. So, same with the paper, did not, tried to be a legitimate news outlet within my skill set. Anyway, so how am I doing? Dennis Neill: Great, so let's talk a little bit more about your early years, growing up in school, kind of your peers and your activities both within the school and any out of school activities that were of particular interest to you during that growing up phase. Tom Neal: Golly, well, I was like a lot of gay kids, I was probably pretty obviously gay, from elementary school, and I do remember getting harassed, at that time, it was just bullying, it was kind of the ethos of the time. A little bit at Carnegie, more so at Nimitz, junior high seems to bring out the worst, particularly in boys, but there's some mean girls too, you know. And actually, I remember also getting harassed at Memorial, there was one young man who used to, I didn't, I don't think I even knew his name, I don't think I'd ever met him, but whenever we would encounter each other in the hallways, he would scream faggot at me, which was, well, that's lovely. And I'm like, you know. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How did you react to that? Tom Neal: Well, it made me angry, but there wasn't, I mean, there were no, there were no very few, to my knowledge, no support resources. I, like a lot of gay men of that era, tried to, was kind of in denial. I think, I do remember at age 16, I decided, being gay is not very easy and I'm not going to be gay, because I'm just a pig-headed gay and I figured I could just kind of will myself not to be gay. And that lasted until 24. And I was in a relationship with a young lady and she broke up with me and I thought, probably this is the time I need to just acknowledge, but we lived together and, to some degree had a fairly successful relationship. Dennis Neill: Any children? Tom Neal: No, no, no, no. We were not married and we did not have children. We worked really hard not to have children, trust me. Dennis Neill: So, going back a little bit to when you were first feeling your identity, can you talk a little bit about your evolution of realizing what your identity is and how you experienced that early on? Tom Neal: I think the thing that's important to remember, I’m a little bit of a history nerd, so, I was born in 1957, so 1977, I was 20. Back five years, 1972, I was 15, right? If I'm doing the math right. And 1972 Stonewall had only happened three years before. 5 �There was no, there was not, I mean, if you wanted to like look at images of a male figure, I think, like, you got to check out the football players' tight pants and look at the underwear section in the Sears and Roebuck, which is all airbrushed by the way, so. So, I mean, there was no, there was no, there was no, I mean, there was actually no role models. There was nothing out there and particularly, maybe in New York or, California, but not, I don't think so even there particularly, but even less so in Tulsa, Oklahoma. My parents, who wound up over the years being tremendously supportive of TOHR and the things I did with the community, loaning me, donating at times, loaning me their truck if we needed to set up things for Pride when we did the first Pride in Owen Park. Even though they were old school conservative Republicans, not the new ones, faithful Presbyterians and in hindsight, given that I could have been born into a Baptist or some kind of evangelical kind of tradition, I'm really grateful because the Presbyterians didn't say anything homophobic. We didn't exist. They didn't acknowledge our existence, but that was more benign than certainly other options. I met a young man at Trinity recently who identified himself as a refugee from a Southern Baptist upbringing. Dennis Neill: When did you first kind of distinguish between being gay and being heterosexual or being homosexual? When did that first kind of come into your mind? Tom Neal: Puberty. I mean, puberty hit and I knew that, I'm like, okay. One of these things is not like the other and I'm like, the other dudes are like, hey, there's this girl who will meet you behind New Haven Methodist Church and you can have some fun. This is in junior high, mind you, and I'm like, I couldn't get out of the, I'll pass. I mean, I knew that I didn't want to do that, and I think that's pretty. Dennis Neill: Did you date at all in junior high? Tom Neal: Just the standard, ask a girl to go to a dance because your best buddy was going to a dance and, so you wanted to go with them and, you know. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Realizing this about yourself, that you were different, did that scare you? Tom Neal: No, but I think I was really lucky. Our mother was a woman of very, very strong character. She had endured, survived some really serious health challenges as a young woman and I think she just, I don't know, I think somehow we got imbued with that strength of character, , that I'm not the problem, y'all may have a problem, but I'm not the problem, who I am. And that's a gift from my parents that I cannot underestimate. So no, I basically… like I know that young LGBT plus people sometimes have suicidal thoughts, that kind of stuff, and I'm like, F that. I am fine. The problem is with you guys. Dennis Neill: So how did you explore your sexuality with your family, both your parents and your siblings? How did that evolve and have there been issues that have brought discomfort to either you or the family? 6 �Tom Neal: I don't think my older brothers talked about it. We didn't talk, but they're enough older. My oldest brother was born in 1949 and my next brother in 51, so they were off into the world while I was growing up. So we have a good relationship now, but we weren't, they were awake. They were off at college, one brother was in Korea. So less of an issue. My youngest brother is seven years younger, so he was a baby during some of this time. Tom Neal: Really my next younger brother, to whom I'm probably, I hate to pick favorites, closest, but we talk every day now that you can talk for free, and he somehow fell into more evangelical traditions, faith traditions. And so at times it was very difficult. I mean, for a while he worked for American Airlines and I think they still do, but particularly then they had non-revenue benefits where family members could fly for next to nothing. And at one point he was like, you're using these benefits to go do gay things and I, you can't, I forbid that you should do that because you're doing gay things. And I don't approve. And I'm like, I said, you don't tell your mother-in-law what she can go do with her non-revenue benefits, you know? So, I mean, because I was living in Dallas and I went to ILGA, which is the International Lesbian and Gay Association Conference in Stockholm. And the only reason I could do it was because I had basically an almost free ticket, though I did have some application fees and DGA, Dallas Gay Alliance, it was called then. I asked them to give me some funds to help with the trip and, so, and I... Dennis Neill: So, that is after you finished which level of education you were... Tom Neal: That was, that was after I finished up at Rice. No, that was probably after finishing both degrees, because I lived in Dallas in between the degrees, and then I lived in Dallas after the degrees, because I graduated from OU, had enough to go to work with Stan Grala, who's the G in GH2, and probably should have worked for Stan. We had a great working relationship. The H's, Mike and Kara Hall, went to work for him. Stan designed horse barns. He was an equestrian architect. Very different practice, right? But I wound up working for a firm here in Tulsa, and then I got an opportunity to work for RTKL, which is a very prestigious firm in Dallas, and I moved back to Dallas and worked for them. What was the question? Circle back. Dennis Neill: Kind of your activities in Dallas. Tom Neal: I just was involved in community stuff. Obviously kind of had the bug in. I had gotten involved in LGBT plus activism at OU, because we were trying to get a nondiscrimination policy for OU, which the university did not have, and they were not particularly willing. They were actually quite unwilling to add that on, and so we lobbied the Board of Trustees, Board of Regents. I went to a black alumni dinner once to talk to the one black regent, just to see, because it was the only opportunity to get face-to-face with her. Since this happened, OU's gotten there. I wish it got there a lot faster, much to my chagrin. I think Laura [Belmonte] was a big part of that, to be honest. I kind of found my voice there. I never really wanted, thought I would be an activist. So I'd gone there because I already had an undergraduate degree. My course load was lighter. My first year was, so I didn't have to do all the distributions. All I had to do was the architecture 7 �program. Well, the first year I got most of that out of the way, so my second year I'm like, and I ran for the Student Congress, and got elected, and again was just really agitating to try to get all this, and then when I came, after I finished up, I kind of continued that in the community, and that was in Dallas. I was involved with GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, which at that time, it was not a single office national organization. It was a bunch of chapters around the country. There was a chapter in San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, obviously D.C., maybe Atlanta, I don't know for sure, but one in Dallas, and got involved with that. And my dear friend of mine, CeCe Cox, who's from Bartlesville, who's been the head of the gay, the equivalent of OkEq in Dallas, was kind of my comrade-in-arms in that, and we kind of built GLAAD and went to organizing meetings. In the process of trying to create a national GLAAD organization, we had meetings all over the country to do that. Dennis Neill: How were you finding the fight at OU? Tom Neal: At OU? I am class of 89, and I went there in 87, so it would have been between 87 and 89. Dennis Neill: And did you have an organized gay or lesbian group on campus that was helping you? Tom Neal: Yeah, yeah, we did. Dennis Neill: Were you very involved in that? Tom Neal: I was one of the leaders of that at one point. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Let me ask you about that. Tom Neal: Yeah. Dennis Neill: You were working on a graduate degree in architecture at that time or another undergraduate… Tom Neal: So I actually took a second undergraduate degree, but in architecture, you can do a four-year degree, but then you have to have a two-year master's in order to have a qualifying degree to be professionally licensed. Or you can do a five-year degree, which qualifies you for professional licensing. So I went and spent two more years, combined with my other undergraduates, to get a B-Arch, which is a five-year degree. In hindsight, I wish I had gotten a master's, because later, I wound up teaching at TCC, and if I had had a master's, I could have continued teaching. But anyway, that's... Maty Bishop-Baldwin: So while you were there, you said there were no protections for LGBT people. Tom Neal: Correct. 8 �Mary Bishop-Baldwin: But yet, you were willing to put your face and your name out there and say, hey, I'm gay, and we need these protections. What gave you the strength and courage to do that when you knew that you could be expelled just for being gay? Tom Neal: Well, I don't think they were actually doing… I don't know that they would have done that. I guess they could have technically, but I don't think they would have because they'd have to, they'd lose way too much of the university. But two, I would go back to my blessed mother whose, courage in life, kind of informed, my, I don't know, maybe it's the Zodiac is somewhat esoteric, but, Leo, I mean, I'm like I'm right and they're wrong. Dennis Neill: Could you post posters about your meetings? Were you undercover… Tom Neal: No, we were not undercover and in fact I think we had student funding like any other student organization. Somebody else had won that battle before I got there and because they started, I was not there then. But every student organization needs a faculty sponsor, and our faculty sponsor was a groundbreaking African-American professor, Dr. Henderson- I can't remember his first name, not gay, not even remotely gay, but committed to the notion that people, all people, should be treated fairly, and as a black man understanding some of that struggle. Dr. Henderson agreed to be the faculty sponsor and, like I say he'd been that for some time. He didn't really do anything day to day. You know we had to have a signature, I think once a year and yeah, so you know there was another advantage. My blessed father paid for my tuition, so I wasn't dependent on scholarships. I had a certain amount of economic invulnerability. I went back to OU when I was 29, and at 29, hopefully you've got your act together a little bit better and you know I'm like… Dennis Neill: what was the name of the organization? Tom Neal: That's a good question, Dennis. I can't remember. I could probably Google it, it's probably out there with like everything else. Dennis Neill: So, being in an architectural program at OU, did you have any background on Bruce Goff and his role at OU? Do you want... about what you encountered at OU and then the subsequent history, if you know about how OU kind of redeemed Bruce Goff? Tom Neal: Well, it's really interesting because I wound up again my last year- I had a little extra time, so I was involved as a student representative of different things, like we had a lecture committee, and I was the student rep and this kind of stuff. And I remember having lunch. We had an Englishman who was one of our professors there and they brought a speaker- in no idea who that speaker was. I was invited to lunch at the faculty club or whatever, and we were having lunch with him and they were talking about Bruce Goff. But at that point he was like we don't talk about the fact that Bruce Goff was a gay man and that the university was hostile to him during some of that time, and I of course brought that up and I thought the English guy was going to kind of have a little fainting spell perhaps. But yeah, no, certainly, even then Bruce Goff has certainly been radically embraced by the university. Now wasn't as much then. They weren't, but 9 �they were proud of his work. They just didn't want to talk about the- you know the not so pretty history of how the university treated him. Dennis Neill: If you go into the architectural school at OU now, do you see evidence of Bruce Goff? Tom Neal: I would imagine, though I have not been back in some years. I haven't been in that building since I served on the Tulsa Preservation Commission for three years and we had a training session at OU and that's the last time I was there, but that was when Dewey Bartlett was mayor. So that gives you- I can't remember the date on that, but that's been seven or eight years at least, if not maybe longer. Dennis Neill: Where were you when you first learned about HIV-AIDS? Tom Neal: Oh, absolutely, I lived in Los Angeles, which is one of the epicenters. LA, New York, San Francisco were all hit hard and I had a couple of kind of best older, best friend, gay guys who had been my neighbors and they kind of adopted me. They were like my gay uncles, and they started. My friend Kerry got sick first and then wound up... it was the classic early, what are we talking? Nineteen, eighty-three, probably about eighty-three, because I graduated from Rice in eighty and lived a couple years in Dallas, went to California and Kerry and Phillip were partners. We lived in the same loft building in downtown Los Angeles before it was stylish to do so, by the way, it was right in between Little Tokyo, which was nice, and Skid Row, which was not so nice, and we were closer to Skid Row. But they were my neighbors there and then we also wound up living in an apartment building in mid-Wilshire, much nicer part of town. Kerry got sick, wound up in part of the big hospital, public hospital. It was east of downtown and in those days people got pneumonia, they died. It's that fast and nobody knew what the hell was going on. You know Kerry… digressing slightly, well, he was from Indiana, so he went home, Philip went with him, I flew back. In those days it was prior to 9-11, so you could like, I actually took a thing of sushi because he wanted sushi. So I carried sushi halfway across the country and then he couldn't eat it because he just wasn't feeling well. Those were kind of dire days. And I remember going to get my first HIV test, which at that time nobody in Los Angeles was doing it. The only place was the center in Long Beach. You drove 30 miles to Long Beach and then you waited for two weeks because it was not an instant test, and thanks be to God. You know I'm- the term had not been invented yet- but I realized that I'm probably demisexual, which means I kind of like to know people before I have sex with them. I'm not going to go into too much sex here, but so I think that probably might have…maybe didn't get infected because of that, because I'm like I just am not comfortable with this and so, but that was not the ethos at the time. Dennis Neill: I'd like to spend a little bit more time about your personal knowledge of HIV/AIDS, since it's shaped generations, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you first encountered it in LA and you've been in Dallas and Tulsa. Just talk a little bit more about your path in activism particularly related to HIV/AIDS. 10 �Tom Neal: I think to be honest, I focused more on civil rights issues because there were already a lot of people working on HIV issues, particularly when I wound up back in Tulsa after 93. TOHR had the testing program that later became HOPE. So those kind of were covered when I was involved in TOHR leadership. Of course we were, they were us and we were they and you know being supportive of the two programs. it's just, I don't know, it's just, I mean I'm a regular visitor here for the testing program. So I even brought my… I had a foster kid for a while and I brought my foster kid because he's like I need to get tested. And I said, and my foster kid was straight, very straight, extremely straight, and I said, Nathan, your risk factors are really, really low. I mean, I'm sure we can do this, but I don't see…What I didn't know, the other tests they do, along with the HIV test, is syphilis. Yeah, my foster kid tested positive for that. So we had a little conversation about safer sex as well as the concept of statutory rape, because I think the young lady with whom he'd been involved, who apparently was the initiator, I said it doesn't matter if she initiates it, if she's 14, you're going to prison. He was 17. So yeah, sorry, I have a little ADD, and so we, my conversations, are almost always meandering, so I don't know really how to add to that. It's always been kind of part of, I mean, I feel, on some level, I think any of us, you know gay men, but lesbians too, not necessarily for the same reason. We've all kind of been informed and scarred by that experience, because… Dennis Neill: Have you lost many acquaintances or friends to AIDS. Tom Neal: Some, probably would have been more if I'd spent more time in more exclusively gay circles. But, like I say, in Los Angeles I was going to architecture school. And the majority of the people I was around were heterosexual. So at least in that time their exposure and their risk factors were a lot lower. So enough, particularly Kerry and Philip. I mean I remember I kept up with Philip after Kerry died and Philip was from, he was from Massachusetts and went back there and I remember thinking I need to call, I need to call, I need to call see how he's doing. But I kept putting it off because I was really I was afraid that I would hear that he had died. And I finally called and I got his mother and he was, he was very, very Italian Catholic family, you know. So I mean, that was his Boston identity and we had a sad conversation, because she was like she- not her exact words, but it was like honey, you know. Now he's gone, you know. So anyway, yeah, I don't know. Dennis Neill: I should have asked you this earlier: design has been kind of your life. What was your stimulus that got you so interested in design work and was there any other career path that you considered other than architectural? Tom Neal: Well, I published a newspaper for eight years, so without any formal journalistic training other than the writing that I alluded to at Holland Hall, and then if you're in an art history program, basically art history is dealt with by writing about it, right? So I think I developed those but, and that I kind of more fell into might also have been kind of an outgrowth from the work with GLAAD, an awareness of how critical media is to our community towards representation. 11 �But the architecture stuff, I think it was always an interest. So my mother is from a little tiny town called Wewoka in east central Oklahoma and my grandfather had a barber shop in downtown Wewoka next to the movie theater. He'd always wanted to be a physician, but his father had what we now call Alzheimer's or dementia and wound up in the state. My great-grandfather would have been in the state hospital in Norman, because that's all they had, that's all they could do. Tom Neal: So he wound up being a barber because he had, like I don't know, half a dozen siblings and somebody had to help take care of them. So and my grandmother learned to be a beautician. They had the barber shop in front and the beautician shop in the back and in those days, you had magazines galore, right, because pre-Internet we didn't all look at our phones, so you had like the hunting magazines and the sports magazines in the barber shop in the back they had like House Beautiful, House and Garden and whatever those kind of things, and some of them would show one of the magazines would have plans, would have the floor plans of the houses, and I remember being you know little kid, I was fascinated. I would sit in the barber shop or in the beauty shop, depending, and look at the magazines and study the plans. The interest was there. I also think that if you think about left brain, right brain and wiring the way, I think I have a memory which also fits with an art history degree. I have a strong visual memory, much more so than other things, so like for love or for money, I can probably not remember the name of a song or song lyrics. That kind of information is like gone as soon as it's in my head it's gone, but visual stuff stays with me and, by way of example, years ago I was, I had worked for 10 years doing kitchen bath design for Home Depot while I kind of did my practice on the side. So I met a lot of people. It's a downtown store, very diverse, you know north side, south side, midtown, wherever- and I'd gone into Petty's- and God rest its soul right. So for something I didn't usually shop there- and there was an older, very distinguished couple and I said, oh, Tom, how nice to see you and I'm going… Usually I can remember faces but I'm like I have no idea who these people are, not a clue. You helped us with our kitchen, this, that and the other, and we still love it three or four years later. And they said: and that island. And I said, oh, the island. Oh, wait, a minute now did we do this, this? And this wasn't the island, kind of like this. I remembered the island. I could not remember who they were, but I could remember the visual, the design that we did for that. I think for better, for worse, that's where my brain wiring is. And I'm at the risk of being immodest, I'm pretty good at what I do because I think I'm working with my natural tendencies or skillset. Right. Dennis Neill: So you bring up your interest in writing and, excuse me, journalism. Let's talk a little bit more about your early introduction into publication and writing. And I do recall, right, Tom, that you were a writer for the Parachute. And I believe that was Chuck Breckridge. Tom Neal: Who's still in town. Yes. Reverend Chuck. Good. That'll be wonderful. Dennis Neill: So just talk us through, kind of chronologically, your interest in journalism, how you got involved and how the new world has impacted journalism and why you decided to stop publishing. 12 �Tom Neal: So I came back to Tulsa, I, at that point was, I mean, I had my little retail store that I wanted to do, but I also needed something else to make a little bit more money. And so Chuck was doing a newspaper, he was based in Wichita, but he was distributing the paper here. And he, I think, offered a job to sell advertising for him. So I took that with the understanding I would also write, I would write to him, I'd be the local writer. And I did that for him for a few months before I realized that I could do it myself and cut out the boss, which maybe is not very nice, but, and so that's when I started Tulsa Family News, title, definitely deliberately ironic. And but with, we were, I had an AP subscription, it was, the intention was to be within the boundaries of my skills, as good and as serious of a newspaper as we could do. And I did that, I think it was eight years. I later, the store closed because the lease ended. And I was also, I don't smoke. And being in a smoky bar till two o'clock in the morning, most of the nights of the week was just a little much. And I wound up taking a job at Home Depot and fell into the design position then. And I was just burning myself the candle at both ends, it was just too much to work full time, do the newspaper. And I finally, after eight years, just said, I’ve, I just, I can't do this. It was right on the edge of the transformation because of the Internet and that kind of thing. If you think about Dennis and Mary, when I came back to Tulsa, we were just beginning to have cell phones, because I remember the number I still had today is one that I got through the LGBT business group that, there was somebody offering cell phones at a discount to the group, and that was my first cell phone. And then personal computers were just coming in, well, had just started coming in when I was at OU in 1989, because they had the first very rudimentary CAD programs, Computer Aided Drafting. At the time I was doing this it met a need in the community, in my opinion, continue to fight battles, like trying to get Tulsa City County Public Library to let us be in the library, free distribution, which they offered without question or restriction to everybody until we ask, God bless Pat Woodrum. And then they changed the rules so that they didn't have to let us in. And I think that went on until I, let's see if I can remember his name, he was a County Commissioner at the time, and he's since, I think he lives mostly in Buena Vista, Colorado these days, but I got a hold of him and said, this would probably be a really good First Amendment lawsuit, and really embarrassing for the City County Library system that they are not allowing a publication in when their whole purpose is to promote publications and reading, and shortly after that the policy changed. Dennis Neill: To allow you back in? Tom Neal: Yeah. To allow us, yeah. Dennis Neill: Do you recall what time frame we're talking about, and how long it took to resolve? 13 �Tom Neal: I think I was doing the publication between about 94, 93, 94, and eight years later, so around 2000, so it was sometime in that period. Maybe his name is Bob, I could look it up, but yeah, yeah. You would recognize the name, yeah. Dennis Neill: And was it every two months, is that when… Tom Neal: Every month. Every month. Dennis Neill: And then who actually printed the publication? Tom Neal: Well, so that was another thing. I got turned down left and right by printers, by other people, and I finally happened to talk to Dave, I can't remember Dave's last name, more of those escaping names, but he was the publisher of the Claremore Daily News, and I drove up to Claremore, and they published it for me, and then I went back to Claremore, got it, and then I dragged my backside all over town distributing it, you know. So it was pretty much a one-person show, me, me, and me. Dennis Neill: But now, how was John Christjohn… Tom Neal: At the time, he and I were living together… Dennis Neill: As partners? Tom Neal: Yeah and we had met in Dallas and then he moved up here and we're still friends. Full disclosure, he is a tenant in one of my garage apartments. It's kind of hard to find a place to live when you have three or four dogs and no money. So not trying to throw him under the bus too much. But anyway, so he wrote for me because he was kind of part of it and sometimes, he helped with parts of it. I had a number of writers. My friend Merry Schepers, I think wrote, something about the handy lesbian or something. She did home improvement stuff. There was Mark Wright who's an attorney, Native American attorney who I think lives in DC now and he would do food reviews and honest God, the ladies who started Wild Fork, he wrote a horrible, horrible, mean review of them. And I'm like, I'm gonna publish it. Try not to censor my writers. And they were furious at me for years and did not believe me that I, they thought I'd written it. And I'm like, I'm not that much of a foodie and no, there is a person, I'm not gonna tell you his name because that's part of the deal, but I did not write it. And I think they may have forgiven me, but for about 10 years I'm pretty sure they didn't forgive me, so. Dennis Neill: How about Dyke Devine? Was she a column in your paper? You recall that? Tom Neal: Maybe. I don't remember. Dennis Neill: I think that might have been Anna Dodwell that wrote it. Tom Neal: Yeah, it might have been. Yeah, yeah, because Anna and I are still, I don't think she lives here now. Tom Neal: Yes, she does. 14 �Tom Neal: I know we, I think we're Facebook connected, but you know. Yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So looking over your eight years of publications, what do you consider your greatest achievement, like a storyline or investigative report? What is one of your proudest moments of being a publisher? Tom Neal: Two things. I think I did, early on, did an interview with Susan Savage, which, I mean, getting a major, to our city, public official to interview with an LGBT publication, I think that was kind of a nice little coup. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She was mayor at the time. Tom Neal: She was mayor at the time. I kind of had to shame her into it, so, but we got there. And, and then I did an interview with Steve Largent, who was either running for Congress, no, I think he was running for Congress, but later was our congressman, first district congressman, with whom I had tremendous political, theological and philosophical differences, but he was always very, very civil. He was a very decent man, at least interacting with him as a person. I like those, those two things. I think just surviving for eight years is maybe an accomplishment. Speaker 3: What was the rest of the question? Tom Neal: There was something. Dennis Neill: That was really it. How about a low, where you really feel like... Tom Neal: The lowest low, and you might appreciate this, is when I misspelled Tahlequah in the headline above the fold. That chapped my backside. You needed a copy editor, didn't you? But it was me, me, me, me, and me. I was, I was, and it was like, it was in print. I had however many copies I had printed every month before I even realized. I'm like, oh, something about some community organizing in Tahlequah or something with Northeastern State. I don't remember that. All I remember is that I screwed it up with the spelling. That, that really, I mean, I'm sure there are other things. I think there may have been a story that they jumped and then disappeared. But, considering that that has happened in major, in like the Tulsa World and other publications, and they had a lot more people to help them than I did, maybe I'll cut myself some slack. Dennis Neill: So, Mary, you have some other questions around journalism. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Let's see, when you were writing for Chuck Breckenridge for his publication, and you thought, I can do this myself, how did it feel to go out on your own in competition with him, the man who had been your boss? Tom Neal: Well, we had not worked together for very long. I mean, it was probably only maybe three or four months. And again, I have tried over the years to make a point to be civil with people, even with whom I've had an argument in the past, or with whom I have lots of disagreements. I mean, God rest her and Joe's soul, but Nancy MacDonald and I did not see eye to eye on a whole lot of stuff, and I was very vocal about it, and I wrote about it at times, and pissed off…I think there are still gay men in this community for 15 �whom Nancy was a saint, and they're angry at me about it. But she was like another mother, or at least an aunt, and Joe and my father are the same generation, and he practiced at St. John's, he was an anesthesiologist as well. So, I mean, I guess my point is, I kind of strayed away from your original question, but my point is, we've got to be nice to each other. Even if we, I mean, I'm sure I pissed you [Dennis] off about something somewhere along the way, though you've always been so kind and gracious to me, you know. So, I'm sure there have been other people. Well, Tim and I have struggled, you know. God bless him, but even we, these days at least, I think are civil. Yes, sir? Dennis Neill: So, what was your competition during that period of time? Of course, the Gayly has continued to publish over this period of time, and just knowledge about other publications would be very helpful during your era, or really any of the time that you weren't even publishing, your interest in the other journalistic world reaching out to our community. Tom Neal: Really, other than the Parachute, there have been things before. Oklahoma City, I mean, the Gayly has always been kind of OKC-centric, you know. I mean, and it was, maybe they're doing better now, but at that time they really, they were distributed in Tulsa, but they didn't really cover Tulsa to a meaningful degree. I think Chuck got busy with other, I don't know that he continued, I don't remember how long he continued the Parachute after that. Next thing I know, he's here and he's working in a religious capacity rather than this. To be honest, Dennis, I don't think there was much. But again, about the time I was shutting down was about the time that everything, the Internet exploded, you didn't need a local news. When I started, you couldn't get this news any place else to any significant degree. I was going through AP specifically, Associated Press, specifically looking for stories of interest to the community. The Tulsa World was not covering LGBT plus stuff, and the local broadcast media, and of course I'm a print snob anyway, so, I think TV broadcast is kind of stupid news, but it has reach. Dennis Neill: So do you have any background on the Star or the Metro Star? I think they may have come after you. Tom Neal: I don't remember them much, to be honest. Dennis Neill: I guess there was some perspective, but also a publication around it. Tom Neal: Yeah, I just, again, since I don't really go out, I mean, and that was true even when I wasn't 68 years old. Dennis Neill: And, as a sign of the times, this is the month that the Gayly had to go all digital, they no longer do hard print. Tom Neal: I did not know that, wow. Dennis Neill: Yeah, Robin's been so loyal, continue that publication, but just financially realized that she could not continue to sustain a hard copy. 16 �Tom Neal: You don't do journalism for the money. It's like teaching a TCC, you don't do it for the money. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: I can verify that. Tom Neal: Yes, ma'am. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Adjunct? No, I meant about journalism. Tom Neal: Oh, yeah, about journalism, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So, Tom, let's talk a little bit more about your role and knowledge and involvement with OHR, then TOHR, and then Oklahomans for Equality. So we first formed the organization in 1980. When was your first exposure to what was then OHR? Tom Neal: 1980? Probably about three years after that, and I think it had become TOHR at that point. Dennis Neill: 1985. Tom Neal: Okay. Maybe it was, yeah, maybe, yeah. I don't know. I do remember going down and going to the Aaronson Auditorium, and there was Doug Hartson, greeter par excellence, and, it was, there was always kind of a program, I've told the kids running this place they need to go back and do that some, they need to have periodic meetings and a program of some kind, but we'll see. And then, like I say, and then I was back at OU, so I was out of the picture, and I was in Dallas, and then I was back from Dallas, so... Dennis Neill: And you said in 84 was when you came back to Tulsa, is that right? Tom Neal: Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, that's why I wasn't around for OHR. I spent, maybe, I'm fuzzy with numbers, it's kind of like song lyrics and titles, I get, I have to have something to tie a memory to, but class of 80, Rice, two years in Dallas, I thought it was four years, but maybe three or four years in Los Angeles, and then back, and then working in Tulsa, probably for two or three years before I went to OU in 87. Somehow that math doesn't add up, so, maybe I was in one of those places less long than I remember, so. Dennis Neill: So you would have been dating my roommate, Mike Williams, and that would have been around 87 and 88. Tom Neal: Yeah, right before I went to OU, and that's when you and John first met, if memory serves me, and you were in that house over on Cincinnati or Boston, one of those places. Dennis Neill: Yeah, Boston Court. Tom Neal: Yeah, and I think I just signed a carport for you guys. Dennis Neill: Uh-huh, that's correct. Tom Neal: I forgot about that. 17 �Dennis Neill: So tell me a little bit about that time frame, so you were here for, I guess, a short period of time. Tom Neal: A couple years. Dennis Neill: Were you dating Mike while you were in Tulsa, or were you also... Tom Neal: No, I, we petered out, I don't know, I don't remember what happened, but yeah, I was dating him when I was in Tulsa. There's another guy with red hair, whose name I can't remember. That was when Kathleen, when I first went to work for her, she worked out of her house over by, well, kind of not far from your house, that same neighborhood. And then she went into this old red brick building over here off of, over on 3rd Street, it's kind of isolated by itself, Detroit, right, 4th and Detroit, right there, and she worked there, and then I went to OU. I'll be blunt, I don't think I've had great luck with relationships. Mr. Christjohn being one of the last ones, and it is flawed and toxic in many respects, but it's of many years' acquaintanceship. Dennis Neill: Then, 83, 84, you're back, I mean, sorry, 93, 94, you're back in Tulsa. Tom Neal: Right. Dennis Neill: You've got the store going on Silver Star, you've got your publication going, and then how did the TOHR come on your radar when you came back and your involvement, including being on the board and president? Tom Neal: Yeah, well, I got involved because I got involved in Pride, because I went to that first, I just was barely back in town and went to Pride, and it was in Mohawk Park, much to my chagrin. It was like hidden, and it was swampy, we'd had rains, not surprising, early summer in Tulsa, it was rainy, that's flood land, and it was just a big stinkin' mess. Dennis Neill: And do you recall, was TOHR actually the sponsor, or was that when the bars were still doing Pride? Tom Neal: I think it was the bars, it was the bars, because, and I had kind of an in with it, because I was, I had just started renting space from John and, was it John and Steve, who owned the Silver Star, and so I got involved in organizing it, and pushed to move it, and we moved it to Owen Park. Dennis Neill: So the next year? Tom Neal: The next year. Dennis Neill: So would that be, do you think, 94 or 95, or can you kind of? Tom Neal: Probably 94, probably 94. And that was one of the years that Mom and Dad lent me the truck, and that was, and we think, I think it was in Owen Park for a couple of years, maybe, and then other people took it over and it went different places, I mean, at one point, the parade went on Brookside, right? Dennis Neill: Yes. 18 �Tom Neal: On Riverside. Dennis Neill: The information we have, and you'll probably have a little more since you're the board president doing this, you might recall that Greg Gatewood got very involved and helped organize the 1998 Pride, which was down the sidewalks, because we didn't have a permit. Tom Neal: Right, I remember that, I covered that. Dennis Neill: And so I think Nancy and Greg worked together, and then in 99, Greg pursued the permit. So that was the first time we had it at what is now Dream Keepers, which was the Veterans Park, and we're not exactly sure when TOHR stepped back in to run Pride, but you probably were present at about around that time, I think. Tom Neal: So I think probably it's very possible that I might have kind of made that happen, that the bartenders, the bar crew kind of they were still there but kind of stepped back and I think they were only doing it because nobody else was. We also had a lot of pushback from people who were very uncomfortable moving out of the far reaches of Mohawk Park because Mohawk felt safe, and I had Owen Park, particularly at that time, a fairly neglected part of the city. it's a long way from Edison Street. It's the only major street through there. Y'all are still gonna be pretty safe and isolated in there, but it's got shade and it doesn't flood, you know. So I mean it was pretty prosaic in some place in this time, because it was definitely before Greg, Deborah Starnes and IDeborah was president at TOHR and we signed the lease for the building on Brookside that now that had a sushi place recently in the bottom, over at near Weber's Root Beer. You know it's kind of a 1940s building and owned by a local slumlord. We got lucky that we wrote into the contract that we had to make sure that the elevator was working, which apparently hadn't worked for ten years, and he had to drop some change to get it working. But we got the working elevator. I think we poured a tiny bit of concrete at the front step to make a semi-ramp to get people in and that was where you know there was, and Peterson- Claudette Peterson, was up there and one of my memories is when we were trying to get it ready to use, there was no big room in there. It had been a dental practice, is my memory, and so there are all these little rooms and we got in there and it was the bunch of guys from FUSO, which was an AfricanAmerican men's HIV outreach organization, and there's nothing like having four or five black queens with sledgehammers and me taking out the solid plaster and metal lath walls between these like five or six rooms to create the bigger room so we'd actually have a meeting space up there and fortunately they were not structural. I did check, I did check, but yeah, so we, got that all out and created that room and, I wound up putting a flagpole made out of just a galvanized metal pipe from Home Depot and clamps- because, again, we had no money, we had no budget- up on the top of the elevator shaft and we had this enormous five-by-eight flag that I bought through my store, and it kept getting stolen. People would come and take it, take it, but, yeah, but it was remarkable because suddenly, Tulsa, Oklahoma, with relatively little LGBT plus visibility, there's this big-ass gay pride flag flying over Brookside. It was really kind of lovely. Deborah Starnes and I actually personally put whatever limited funds we had at risk by signing that lease because we were personally on the hook for it. 19 �Dennis Neill: So what was the stimulus of moving from where we are at 39th and Harvard? And who actually did the research to find the space? Tom Neal: That space? I think of Deborah and I… Dennis Neill: On Brookside, did you look at several different locations? Tom Neal: I think so at one point. Now, Tim Gillian would be a good person to talk to about that, because I know he was involved in some of the researching, because I remember- and Nancy was involved as well, because at one point, we went and looked at the freaking Ambassador Hotel as a gay pride center. It was a ruin at the time before he had been renovated into this. obviously, top-flight hotel. It had been empty for at least 10 years, maybe 20 years. We, I remember looking at that. We looked at what is now the Circle Cinema. This is obscure, lost, almost lost, facts, isn't it? Dennis Neill: Yeah, we actually looked at it again in 2022. I mean 2002. Tom Neal: Yeah, Circle Cinema, part of the back roof or something was coming down on it. Somehow, and I don't know if Nancy got like Nancy was pushing, she was, she was a suburbanist at heart, so she was always pushing…Oh, we can find this shopping center out here, and I'm like we need to be more urban. Gay people use that term broadly and generically. 41st and Hudson is not an ideal location, though they made it work there, you know so. So, yeah, so that we, yeah, we did that and it was there for a while. And then there was Steve H, I don't remember. Took over Horn, yeah, came after me, and then Greg and Kerry. Then at that point I'd step back. Dennis Neill: And was it your store that was in the center? Because there's that store… Tom Neal: At a certain point I think I just gave or sold. I don't think I mostly gave the leftover merchandise I did to the center to use to sell for their benefit. Tom Neal: I don't think, because once I once- you know Steve and John, God bless himhad some dude out of Oklahoma City who thought he could- he also had a newspaper, very short-lived, and thought he could have a newspaper and have a store and still live in Oklahoma City, and so they basically said: eh, we're doubling your rent and I'm like this is not a viable project at double rent, it's barely viable at the current rent. Thanks, guys, no hard feelings. That's when I kind of shut it down, I think at one point I tried to do some sales out of one of the MCC churches, but it wasn't really…Tulsa's a challenge because there is no really gay community, physical, geographical gay community. Dennis Neill: During your period as president on the board we still have the testing clinic. I interviewed Jeremy Simmons a couple of months ago and he recalls that we did create the name Hope while it was at TOHR and all he can remember is it was kind of like a committee decision to come up with Hope. He couldn't really remember the individual that came up with that name, any recollection. 20 �Tom Neal: I don't know that. I was not part of those conversations. My recollection is they had decided and there were problems with some of the state funding- the state was being kind of homophobic is my recollection, but I don't put money on that oneand they- Jeremy in particular and others- really felt like they needed to separate from TOHR in order to continue to get the funding that they were getting from the state. And some of us were really opposed to that, just probably more because we were being cantankerous and like no, no change is scary, you know. They came in and did a really good reading of the bylaws and came in and did an emergency ambush meeting and basically just overrode the vote and separated themselves out, which probably in hindsight I guess that was the right thing to have done. Dennis Neill: Were you president at that point in time? Tom Neal: I think I might have been. Dennis Neill: And so, maybe is that when you left maybe Dee Beasley became president, or who was your vice president. Do you recall? Tom Neal: Um, no, I do not recall, but Steve Horn succeeded me. Directly after me was Steve Horn, and then, directly after him, he got a job in Dallas or someplace out of town, and then it was Greg. The only person I can think… Dennis Neill: I think maybe Dee after… Tom Neal: I don’t remember, I don’t… Dennis Neill: Dee was only president for about three months Tom Neal: I don't know when that was. The only person I would mention because he was a stalwart. John Stanley was on my board. He wasn't vice president; he was just a great trooper who would do whatever he could to help and he passed. Dennis Neill: Fortunately, we do have an interview with him. Morgan [Allen], I think around 2002. So we have his transcript on our website. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: In 2002?? Dennis Neill: No, I’m sorry, in 22. Yeah, yeah, 2022. Tom Neal: I knew what you meant. No, well, and Morgan sang a really plaintive appellation, a cappella song, at his memorial service here. Yeah, it's just achingly beautiful, and I know her from Trinity Choir. She's in the choir, I'm not, and I asked her if she would do it and it was really kind. Dennis Neill: So, Tom, coming back to the period in the 1990s when you were acting with the TOHR, do you remember when you first got involved with the organization and what kind of caused you to be so interested in taking action and a leadership role in the organization? 21 �Tom Neal: I think I more fell into it than anything else. There was maybe a vacuum. You know somebody needed to do it and nobody else seemed to be stepping up again, coming back and doing Pride literally within a week, a couple of weeks, of having returned to the city, like end of May and coming in June, and pride was in June still then. And then the next year, and you know just the realization this could be done better. And so next year, I kind of did that, I think, a couple years, and then, like I say, Debra Starnes and I got along pretty well and she ran for president and then I think she had something that she had to step down and I was vice president and so became president. I don't remember if I got reelected in my own right or not, if I just finished out her term, I just don't remember at this point. But proud of the fact that though we did not own it, but for the first time in Tulsa's history there was a physical LGBT plus center for the community Dennis Neill: Speaking of that, Greg recalls, Greg Gatewood recalls when you first put the signage up and Greg mentioned that, he said: if we put that sign up, I know there's going to be a car wreck on Brookside by people eyeing that sign and he said that day we put it up, sure enough there was a fender bender right in front of the building because somebody was looking at the sign and not paying attention. So do you recall some of those early days of the center, some of the vandalism? Tom Neal: I know we had a little bit of vandalism. I don't remember a lot of details, I think maybe somebody broke the front door one time, Dennis Neill: The glass twice. Tom Neal: Was it twice? Maybe I'm a little bit of a Pollyanna. I try to see the positive. So I maybe, I just don't remember. I mainly remember the flag being stolen because I personally was up there on the roof putting it back up and buying another one and so forth. But just in general, the only other thing I can really remember distinctly is when there was an event for Chaz Bono. You know Cher's son these days. At the time I think she still identified as a woman and I remember taking pictures of Chaz and Nancy McDonald talking in that hallway, in that great hall or small great hall that we created. Dennis Neill: I think she was here, wasn't she for a fundraiser? I believe we had it at the downtown Doubletree. I can't remember if it was for TOHR or if it was for PFLAG. Tom Neal: Could have been either, could have been either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: And were you involved with PFLAG through these years? Tom Neal: Certainly, when I was doing the newspaper, I was very supportive of PFLAG and I think I would assume that I probably donated advertising to them, certainly covered events that they had them. I seem to recall that they were often meeting at Fellowship Congregational there on Harvard and somewhere along the way became friends with the late Reverend Russell Bennett, great, great hero of mine, again kind of taking the stand back in the day when very few people were. I mean in those days, if you remember, again, before we started interviewing, we were talking about NCCJ [National Conference for Christians and Jews] and sometimes not always having support from parts of the community from whom you might have expected to get it, and I remember 22 �that Russell was out there very, very supportive, even at times when, for example, All Souls was not. They were just kind of ducking the issue, which is ironic because they were very welcoming of LGBT people as individuals, but they were not putting any of their credibility as a congregation on the line at the time, or at least that was my perception of things. Obviously not where they are today. You know so, but at that time, you know also, you know my parish Trinity was supportive of individuals, but not as out there. That whole denomination has made progress. Likewise, you know the Methodists and the Presbyterians. Dennis Neill: And was this about the time the Say No to Hate Coalition formed, or was that after your time? Do you think? Tom Neal: I think after. Again, I'm not the best person with dates. Dennis Neill: Yeah, I think it might have been after, because I know at one time I was fairly involved with it. But then Laura was very, very involved. I think she chaired it for a while. That was probably when she was president in 2004 - 2007, time frame. So talk a little bit about some of your highs and lows while you were so involved with TOHR in those early 90s. Tom Neal: I think I kind of feel like I've covered those. I mean, really. Dennis Neill: Were you having monthly meetings then? Y Tom Neal: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Dennis Neill: At that center? Tom Neal: I think so, I think so at the center, yeah. Not enormously attended, but I haven't seen enormous attendance of anything in the community since maybe the really early days at Aaronson, when it was literally almost the only game in town. So, other than I guess the bars that were all over the place. Certainly with the Internet, with people meeting each other electronically these days, I mean, there's what, maybe three bars left now, and I don't go to bars anyway. It was already a somewhat scattered community compared to maybe Dallas or Houston, where you had, a physical center to the places. And I think with the changes in media, it's even more scattered. Dennis Neill: So are you comfortable being called an activist? Tom Neal: Yeah, sure. I think it's a worthy title. I don't think these days I would make that claim anymore. I've stepped back, I’ve really focused on my, my work, my design practice. I don't remember if I mentioned to you, but I'm taking a class at TU, which I love being on campus. It's, they call it lifelong learning. It's not for credit. I call it classes for old people. It's really good because since I work out of my home and my work companions are a dog and three cats, it's nice to interact with like… Dennis Neill: What are you taking at TU? 23 �Tom Neal: I am taking Spanish. I'm just finishing my fourth semester there, motivated, prompted by a trip to Spain with one of my nephews. And I had been using Duolingo to try to learn some Spanish. And I came back from that trip feeling like I needed more formal instruction. And originally thought I'd try to take something at TCC. I had taught adjunct there for nine semesters, but they didn't have anything that wasn't online. And I wanted an in-person class. And then I live literally seven minutes by bicycle from TU. I'm like, I live across from a major university. Let me see what they have to offer. And I wound up, and it was very interesting as this long-haired senior citizen walking into a classroom full of mostly freshmen, 18- and 19-year-olds, whose eyes are getting big. It's like, who is this old guy in the class? And I'm looking like, God, they look like they're 14. It's been a really good experience. And my Spanish is progressing. Dennis Neill: Cool. So at TCC, what were you teaching? Tom Neal: I taught both art appreciation and humanities one. Dennis Neill: Did you feel welcome as an adjunct professor at TCC? Tom Neal: Yes, certainly. No issues because I was gay. Well, adjuncts are overworked and underappreciated, generally speaking. Every, probably every place in the nation, but it was a good experience. I stumbled into it. It was actually a random conversation I was having with another person, closer to my age, in the men's locker room, because I used to work for 10 years, maybe, well, maybe it's 20 years. Many years I worked out at the TCC Fitness Center because it was so close to Home Depot where I was working. And I had a conversation with a guy named Ralph saying, my undergrads in art history. I'd love to teach someday. And he said, hmm, my wife's in charge of making those assignments. I said, oh, well, tell her I would be interested. And a couple months later, I get a call at 4.45 PM on a Friday saying, we really, somebody's dropped out. And could you teach this class starting on Tuesday at 10 a.m.? Indeed, I can, but I had never seen the textbook. I hadn't seen a syllabus. I was cramming on Monday to start teaching on Tuesday, but I had a good time. The pay is crap, but I very much, and I wound up teaching initially, mostly an art appreciation class for a program they called Accelerate, where TCC took its concurrent enrollment classes out to public high schools. Students in Tulsa can take a class at TCC. Concurrent enrollment sometimes means they take it on campus. But in this case, particularly because not every student is mobile, we wound up…I wound up teaching at Tulsa Central, Hale, East Central, and then Webster and Edison. Those last two more than any other, repeated times. And it was great. I loved, I had the best and the brightest. For example, East Central is a pretty rough school. It looks like a prison, and it had high security when you walk in. But the kids I was working with were brilliant. And it was such a good experience. And then, again, Humanities I on campus was not bad. I liked that as well. That was at Metro Campus. It hasn't happened lately, but for a few years I would be randomly going around Tulsa, and somebody would say, hey, did you teach Humanities at TCC? I said, yeah. And mostly people said, I took your class. I loved your class. It made you feel really good. 24 �Dennis Neill: So, as an activist, what do you consider kind of your crown achievement? Would you say whether it's through the newspaper or your active involvement in organizations? What really gives you comfort about the view you took about being an activist in the community? Tom Neal: I think it's not any single thing, Dennis. I think it is a general pushing, expanding the envelope, pushing things forward, making it a little better than it was before. The process at OU that I worked on towards getting a nondiscrimination policy, we didn't get it, but somebody did after us. But I think the work that we did helped move us in that direction. Clearly, I think that the fact that we're sitting in this wonderful building today has its origins in the thinking that people like Nancy and Greg and... Dennis Neill: Okay. And you were talking a little bit about your activism and you feeling like it's not just one event, but you want to expand it a little bit more? Tom Neal: So, I think, I don't know whether we chopped this off or not, but I was saying that, here we are in this beautiful, wonderful building. And I think, again, back to the notion that maybe it's not any single thing that I accomplished, but being part of the process of moving us forward as a community, that, the origins of this building, to some degree, are in the building that Deborah and I signed the lease for over on Brookside. In the thinking, Nancy McDonald was very involved, Greg Gatewood…each of us working to the recognition that we need a physical place to anchor the community, particularly in a community that is kind of scattered, to all parts of the city. And I think I helped advance that. I think, maybe like before we started the interview, we were talking about our interaction with the Jewish community and maybe, helping people there to be more aware of, sometimes the intersection between LGBT issues and Jewish issues, particularly in terms of our shared history around, living through the Nazi regime. not identical experiences, obviously, but some overlap there. Part of that process…I know you can relate to this, one step forward and two steps back, or maybe it's two steps forward and one step back. When you and I first met, there were really hopes that the city of Tulsa was then, in 1980-something, going to add a non-discrimination policy. And I think you guys are really close. There was a little bit of a backlash, you know? Dennis Neill: But do you feel like there's been some backsliding over these recent years? And what would you attribute that to? And what would you tell the current generations? How can we move forward? But I'm assuming you might feel like we're backsliding in progress. What are your thoughts? Tom Neal: Well, yeah, I don't think we can take anything for granted. And I think again, as a student of history, if you look at Weimar, Germany, it was a good place for queer people in the 1920s, and then only to be followed by... I think, again, part of that shared experience or similar experience of the Jewish communities around the world and of LGBT communities is this kind of, we're always looking over our shoulders because, particularly with the current administration, could things turn south, could things go bad really quickly. I think I live with that as a little bit of a fear. I just read that the Texas 25 �Tech University system has now basically banned- it's destroyed- the women's studies, the LGBT studies, sexuality studies. You can't even write or talk about these issues. I have family who are alums, and so I put on my Facebook like, hmm, reposted, shared the story but then said: maybe we should call this fascist Tech, not Texas Tech, though Texas and fascism may be pretty good overlap these days. So, yes, are we backsliding? I think our fears are worse than the actuality. But could we backslide? I think that's real. What would I say to young people? Don't blow off your seniors completely. Some of us have some experience. You don't have to freaking, reinvent everything every time or assume that everybody who's you know older than you is an idiot and doesn't know anything, because sometimes that's how it feels. I was a little perturbed because recently this organization had a weekend seminar for rural organizing, I think, and I looked over it and it was kind of almost pro forma, by the book inclusive. We had one of these and one of these and one of these I mean in terms of racial and ethnic diversity and so forth, except for there was not a single old person in the mix. They were all Morgan's age and younger and I'm kind of like some of us might have something to contribute. Some of us have done some of this before, and I think you know again, maybe kind of one of my pet peeves- and we see it a fair amount in the, in the gay part of the LGBT community, is ageism. You know just, and- and I've been a little outspoken, calling people I say, that's kind of, that's kind of …So I think that would be kind of my, maybe the message, the answer to the question is: you know that inclusiveness is not just about, race and ethnicity or gender. You know that that many people have something to contribute. I don't know, probably if I keep talking, I'm going to say the same thing over in three different ways. Dennis Neill: Anything we haven't covered over your life to date and your reflections on what's been accomplished and what needs to be accomplished or any other comments you want to make. Tom Neal: Oh well, thank you for doing this, it's fun. It's kind of makes me remember some things that I hadn't really thought about for a while. You know I'm usually focused on work deadlines and Spanish exams and walking my dog. I'm planning my next trip because I really enjoy traveling. Dennis Neill: Where's that? Tom Neal: Next trips? This summer's trips, I think I'm going to go to Little Rock just for a long weekend, just because I've never really spent any time there. And there's the Clinton Library. Their art museum has been recently revamped, and I like to visit Episcopal Parishes when I travel, and this is going to sound so church nerdy, but they have Christ Church and the Cathedral, two different congregations within blocks of each other, and I can actually go to one service at 8 or 8:30, and the other one at 10:30, which is a lot of church. Dennis Neill: Both Episcopalian? 26 �Tom Neal: One's the Cathedral, one's just, I guess, the local church, but they're both historic because Little Rock, Arkansas is older than we are as a state. I'll probably go see my brother and go to the beach with my nephew that I traveled with in North Carolina. I'm kind of avoiding overseas travel because of you know all the unrest right now. But my nephew, with whom I travel a fair amount, he said, I want to get one last trip in August before, hopefully, I take a class at TU in the fall. And he said: well, what about Mexico City? I'm like I've been really wanting to go to Mexico City because I've never been, fits in with studying Spanish, amazing art and museums and history, and I like to mountain bike, and I even think there's mountain biking close to the city. So hopefully that'll be, that'll be that, and then next winter go skiing because that's my other thing. Dennis Neill: Tom, I really appreciate your time, your dedication to the community and everything that you've done for this organization and for the great history you've left us with the Tulsa Family News. Thank you very much. Tom Neal: Thank you, Dennis. 27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Tom Neal Interview Subject The topic of the resource Tom Neal Oral History Project Interview from April 30, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this in-depth interview, Tom Neal shares his life journey, from growing up in Oklahoma to becoming a community activist and publisher. He discusses his experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, the evolution of Tulsa's community spaces, and his reflections on social progress and challenges. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tom Neal, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 30, 2026 activism AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Gay Rights HIV/AIDs interview journalism Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Rainbow Library Tom Neal transcript Tulsa Family News video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/80148d6fd82c4fb1120d20b177a365f9.pdf 225665e18ebba2395a66e636d13cdc2b PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Dr. Frances Fae Haas Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: May 5, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Mary Bishop-Baldwin using Reduct.Video AI Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Dr. Haas: Summary In this in-depth interview, Dr. Frances Haas shares her remarkable journey from a small-town girl to a pioneering physician serving the LGBTQ community, including HIV/AIDS patients and transgender individuals. She discusses her career, medical insights, advocacy, and the evolving landscape of gender-af rming care. Keywords LGBTQ healthcare, HIV/AIDS, transgender medicine, medical advocacy, Oklahoma healthcare, gender-af rming care, HIV research, medical history, community activism Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Dr. Frances Haas 01:32 Early Life and Education 05:23 Career Beginnings in Nursing 09:19 Journey to Medical School 11:26 First Encounters with HIV Patients 14:07 Stigma and Challenges in HIV Care 15:24 Medical School and Specialization 19:10 Establishing an HIV Practice 21:12 Advancements in HIV Treatment 23:12 Caring for Transgender Patients 26:21 Evolving Patient Demographics 28:34 Insurance Challenges in Transgender Care 30:36 The Journey to Gender Af rming Care fi fi fi 2 �32:59 Navigating Treatment for Minors 36:48 Understanding Transgender Rights and Public Perception 40:07 The Intersection of HIV and Transgender Health 44:07 Community Engagement and Activism 47:47 Ethics of HIV Disclosure 51:05 The Future of HIV Treatment and Education 56:00 Personal Re ections and Family Dynamics 01:03:02 Messages for Future Generations Dr. Frances Haas Oral History Interview May 5, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Thank you for joining us today. It is May 5th, 2026, here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, the headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality, and we are in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library, and you're here for a History Project interview. Today our special guest is Frances Haas. Could you give us your name – your full name? Dr. Frances Haas: Frances Fae Haas. Toby Jenkins: Frances Fae Haas. Never knew the middle name. I love it. And she will be with us today. We refer to her as Dr. Haas or Miracle Worker, but we also have Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, with us today, and Mary Bishop-Baldwin here, a part of the History Archives, and I'm Toby Jenkins conducting the interview. Frances, or Dr. Haas, I'm going to call you Dr. Haas because that's the thing I'm most comfortable with, if that's all right? Dr. Frances Haas: That's ne, either one. Toby Jenkins: So I want to know, we're going to talk about your career in medicine and serving speci cally the LGBTQ community, but I want to nd out a little bit about, you know, how you became Frances Haas, Dr. Frances Haas. Where were you born? Dr. Frances Haas: I was born in Evansville, Indiana. I'm from the little town of Boonville, Indiana, in the southwest corner of Indiana. Toby Jenkins: And was that a big metropolis, or was that a little bitty town? Dr. Frances Haas: Evansville is a small city. Boonville is about 5-6,000 people. Toby Jenkins: And what was your family like? I mean, what did your father do? Dr. Frances Haas: My father was a mechanic. My mother was a telephone operator. I have an older half-sister, and I have a younger full sister. Toby Jenkins: All right. And did you graduate from there? fi fi fl fi 3 �Toby Jenkins: Where at in western Missouri? Dr. Frances Haas: Milo is the name of the little town, but it's kind of close to Nevada and Eldorado Springs. I graduated from Eldorado Springs. Toby Jenkins: Well, that's beautiful country. I know that well. Just curious, what were some of the things that you were interested in when you were a kid or a teenager? Dr. Frances Haas: When I was a kid, I liked a lot of crafts. I was not a girl who played with dolls. You know, I liked plants. I mean, I planted beans out of mom's cupboard and everything. I experimented on plants. I had a mother-in-law's tongue, and I did surgery on it. But they thought I'd probably be something like a botanist or something. And then when we moved to the farm in Missouri, I discovered I liked cows. And so my major when I went off to college was pre-ag. Toby Jenkins: So when you were in high school, were you real good in math and science? I mean, did you have an aptitude for that? Dr. Frances Haas: I was good in the rst two years. You know, I had two years of algebra, two years of Latin, and I did well in school. But it was a bad home life. My rst stepfather was very abusive. There was sexual abuse involved. And so I switched to business. It was just a chaotic, chaotic life. Toby Jenkins: And so you went off to—you graduated from— Dr. Frances Haas: Eldorado Springs High School. Toby Jenkins: And then where did you go to college? Dr. Frances Haas: I went to Missouri Southern in Joplin in pre-ag. My mother picked where I would go. I didn't have any choice in the matter. And after one year of college, I went home for the summer. My rst stepfather was an alcoholic. He'd gotten pretty violent and all. Actually, my little sister and I got kicked out at 18. She was 17. And so we went down to Joplin, stayed at the YWCA. And I got myself a job as a nurse aide in the nursing home. And she got a job at the stockyard in the restaurant as a waitress. Igot myself enrolled in nursing school because I thought a nurse aide—an RN, was a nurse aide who made more money. And then— Toby Jenkins: And that was at school there? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and got my little sister enrolled. Our father had died when I was 15, so we had some Social Security and VA coming in. It was $146 or less during the period, but I made it through college on that. Missouri Southern was one of the 10 cheapest universities in the United States. Toby Jenkins: And so what years would this have been? fi fi 4 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: No. My father was a binge alcoholic, and my mom divorced him when I was a freshman in high school and remarried her rst husband, who was my half-sister's father. We moved to western Missouri to a farm. �Dr. Frances Haas: Let's see, I started college in 1969, and then 1970 to 1972, I have an associate of science degree in nursing in ’72. Then I started work as a nurse at the osteopathic hospital in Joplin, Oak Hill. They had medical students start coming in. I never dreamed of being a doctor, never, ever, ever. I was afraid of the doctors, but the medical students were only a few years older than me, and I wasn't afraid of them. So that's when I decided, well, I want to be a doctor, and started taking the pre-med subjects. At that time, a lot of times, I was the only RN in the hospital, and there were no doctors there, so you were just kind of, it was about 100 beds. We're talking about the early ’70s. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so this would have been at the osteopathic hospital? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, in Joplin. Toby Jenkins: And is that where you went to medical school for your degree, was osteopath college? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. I took my pre-med subjects there and was interviewing, I interviewed here at OSU medical school program and in an osteopathic school in West Virginia, but I wasn't getting any encouragement. My mother was very much against me going to medical school because she thought that they would force her to pay for it. My brother-in-law, who was a psychiatrist, didn't encourage me to go. I found out later, the reason was that he realized with my personality, my patients would be richer than me, and he's probably right. But anyhow, he was very supportive later. So I gave up the dream, and I moved back to Indiana. That was in 1979. I worked at the local hospital there, and I was assistant director of nursing, an ICU head nurse, and did medical staff quality assurance and utilization review. I told a physician friend who was an osteopath that the decision I regretted most in life was not going to medical school and I was too old, and he says, “I don't think you're too old.” He took me back to his of ce, got me out the American Osteopathic Association Directory, and showed me where they had the schools and all. So I started applying. I don't even have a bachelor's degree. I have an associate degree in science. So I started applying. I had excellent references, even one from the nun head of our hospital. My grades were – some of them weren't so good, and some of them were superb, depending on how much I was partying when I was younger, because I did like to party. I was out of pre-med by about 10 years, and so I applied, and you get turned down and everything. It's discouraging, but I kept applying. And I was at Mass one Sunday, and we were standing up doing the responses that they do in the Catholic Church. I remember the sun shining in, and God said, “Take care of people with HIV.” And that's where it came from. Toby Jenkins: Wow. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and I just knew at that point, I'm gonna get in. Just keep trying, and whatever you do, help people with HIV. So then I did get in. I was an alternate; I almost didn't get to go. I missed all of orientation. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Dr. Frances Haas: 1991. Toby Jenkins: 1991. fi 5 �Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. I missed all of orientation, because they called when I had been down in Mexico visiting. I had a foreign exchange student. I'd been down in Mexico visiting them, and came back on Amtrak, and got home about eight in the morning. That afternoon, I got a telephone call from Kansas City University, which is the one I wanted to go to the most. I'd had an interview there, I was an alternate. But I didn't think I was gonna get to go, because it was time for school to start. They said, “We have an opening. Can you come?” And I said, “Yes.” And I said, “When do you want me there?” They said as soon as you can get here. So that was a Tuesday afternoon. Wednesday, I went in and quit my job. Actually, the university had called my work, trying to nd me, because they were trying to get ahold of me, and they couldn't, so they called my place of employment. So theyToby Jenkins: And that was in Indiana? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, so they all knew. They got together a going-away party for me, bought me an otoscope and a ophthalmoscope and everything. Then I had to go to Evansville to get a pair of glasses, because I'd lost mine on the trip, and I was blind as a bat, and then pack my car. Thursday I drove 500 miles to Kansas City. Friday I enrolled at the school and had my physical in the dean's of ce and started school on Monday. Toby Jenkins: Wow. Dr. Frances Haas: And it was hard that rst year. I remember I struggled. Toby Jenkins: And how old were you? Dr. Frances Haas: I was 39 when I was accepted, and I wasn't even the oldest woman. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been 1991? Dr. Frances Haas: Uh-huh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And were you partnered at this time? Were you married? Dr. Frances Haas: No, no. Toby Jenkins: So you were single. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And you had been working in Indiana. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: In nursing. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And so you'd had this religious experience where you felt like you were called to do this. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. fi fi fi 6 �Dr. Frances Haas: I think my rst exposure to an HIV patient was when I worked for about six months out at Stanford University in California. And there was a young man brought in to our unit. It was a med-surg unit. And they said he was from San Francisco and that he was gay. I remember him as being very thin, and he had lymphoma of the brain. This was probably about 1975, 1976. This is before HIV was there. When I was out at Stanford, we used double doses of antibiotics. If it said every six hours, we were giving it every four on these patients that were being transferred in. But that one young man I'm pretty sure had HIV. It just was not recognized at that point. At that point, we didn't use gloves. I've had so many needle points – needle sticks – as a nurse that I can't – I lost count. So there but for the grace of God go I. But I can remember that young man and him dying and all with brain lymphoma. Toby Jenkins: So when did you begin to, like as a nurse, there in your work in Indiana. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You lived, you were right in the middle of nursing. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: When HIV and AIDS had made it to the middle of the heartland. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. There was a patient brought into our little hospital. We weren't a big hospital. And it was the son of our unit clerk. Actually at one time, he'd been my orderly and then he'd gone off to the military and come back. He had a respiratory illness and there was talk going around. This was in the ’80s. So there was a lot of fear and everything. And I remember I did medical staff quality assurance at the time and the respiratory therapist was pushing me to have him checked for PCP pneumonia. I pushed back against it because he was getting treatment for it. I know the physician doing it didn't want that de nite diagnosis out there but he was treating appropriately for it. Because you're in a small town, and there is stigma. His mom worked there and all. I don't know if that young man is still alive or not. But that was probably the rst known HIV patient I took care of. He came in later, and we learned he had HIV. Toby Jenkins: So during the late ’80s, before you went into medical school, and you were working in hospital settings, a clinic, did you see a lot of stigma associated with people who possibly were HIV positive? Dr. Frances Haas: Some. Some. Actually, our hospital administrator from the Daughters of Charity, a little nun, she suggested – the little hospital was having problems nancially – and she suggested making the top oor into an HIV unit. There was some ack about that. What it turned out to be was an alcohol detox rehab unit. They screamed about that because the obstetric unit was up on the third oor. The fear was those druggies are going to go in and kill the babies, which of fi fl fi fi fl 7 fi fl Toby Jenkins: And had you already as a nurse in the hospitals there been working with HIV patients? �course didn't happen. But I always thought this little nun was ahead of her time. She was actually one of my references for medical school. Toby Jenkins: So you go to medical school in Kansas City, and did you specialize in infectious diseases? Dr. Frances Haas: No. I did medical school, and then I was going to do my internship in Joplin, because my mentor was there. My mentor is a cardiologist, and he trained me as a nurse. He trained me as an ICU nurse, and he did training of me as a medical student. But they had a hostile merger going on with Freeman Hospital. The FTC got called in on that, and the head of the program said this is probably not a good place for you to get an education. What about Tulsa? I said that's ne. Well, it turned out that the rst medical student I ever met, Dan Fieker, was the head of Tulsa Regional Medical Center. I didn't interview or anything, just called. He remembered me, and I was accepted in. Toby Jenkins: So what year did you move to Tulsa? Dr. Frances Haas: 1995. I did a year internship, because I didn't know if I wanted to do internal medicine, family medicine, or surgery. And so during that year, Dr. Tom Stees was head of the internal medicine program. I really liked him, even though he's tough as hell. But I mean, if you're going to go to school and you're going to pay that kind of money and all, you want the best. And you don't want an easy program; you want a hard program. And so I decided to do internal medicine. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been through OSU? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, that was from ’96 to ’99. Toby Jenkins: And OSU hospital would have been called Tulsa Regional Medical Center. Dr. Frances Haas: And then Dr. Beal had the – what's the special program for HIV – it's the Ryan White program. They had the funding for that, but OSU got the program. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Dr. Frances Haas: ’96. And I can remember, I was so upset, because I was so excited, because I knew I wanted to do HIV at that time. Toby Jenkins: Well, yeah, you'd heard from God. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And they were going to have residents, and then I can remember Dr. Stees saying that they’d decided the rst-year internal medicine residents couldn't do it. I remember I'd let out a profanity in front of him. I still remember the stunned look on his face. But then, so the second and third year I did the clinic. I was the only resident who liked the HIV clinic. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were there several coming in, in Tulsa? Dr. Frances Haas: Several? Toby Jenkins: In the clinic? Were there several patients? fi fi fi 8 �Toby Jenkins: And this would have been, through what we call today the OSU Clinic, it would have been – I can't remember what it was called in those early days. Dr. Frances Haas: The Ryan White Clinic. Toby Jenkins: Oh, it was called, okay. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And I guess the part I didn't like about it was people didn't know a lot. And that “ the best regimen was Crixivan-Combivir”. Well, Crixivan, I mean, yeah, it may be the best medicine, but it's hell to take. It was every eight hours on an empty stomach. You know patients are skipping doses. It gave you nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. It sucked as a regimen, even though it's “the best.” So that was a problem. And then Dr. Baker, who was in charge of the Ryan White Clinic, told me that Dr. (Jeffrey) Beal was wanting to move to Florida, and his clinic was up for sale. So that's how that came about. Toby Jenkins: I did not know that. So you purchased his practice. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And so he had the old timers in there. And that's when I learned that it may not be the best regimen, but you get a regimen that patient will take faithfully. That's the most important thing is they take it consistently. Because we had what we called Florida-itis: They'd go on vacation, they'd conveniently forget their medicine because, by God, it made them feel like shit. And so you learn to nesse some of the meds so the patients will take them faithfully. Toby Jenkins: Now this medication that you were giving in this time, did it suppress the HIV virus? Or was this prior to the actual effective regimens that we found? Dr. Frances Haas: It suppressed the virus, but you had the side effects, and it made it dif cult to take. Toby Jenkins: And so when you got your practice, they had found the medication that kept people alive. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, Dr. Beal was doing studies, and I never ever thought that I would be doing medical studies, but that was part of the practice I bought. And so I learned to do those, and you got used to nessing, working with meds. It also brought in meds to the Midwest that were not available, except to those on the East Coast, West Coast, and Florida. Toby Jenkins: Because you were doing the research. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. So they came in two, three years earlier than would have been expected, and that led to some of these old-timers still out there because they got started on those regimens. Toby Jenkins: So when you're referring to old-timers, you're referring to lifers who lived with the virus. Dr. Frances Haas: 70s and 80s, yeah, that affected them. fi 9 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. �Toby Jenkins: All right, thank you. And that would have been what year that you started doing the research? Dr. Frances Haas: I started in Dr. Beal's practice July 1999, and then he left January 1st, 2000. Toby Jenkins: So the medication that is helping the patients live and suppress the virus, did you begin to see a dramatic drop in deaths? Dr. Frances Haas: Over the years, yeah. You still, I found that you could suppress the HIV virus, but if you had hepatitis C, that went and killed them. So I started doing hepatitis C studies. With every death I tried to learn on. Like a patient that had pneumococcal pneumonia: I gave them the vaccine. Why didn't it protect them? Well, they got the vaccine when their T-cell count was less than 200. So I found that when I got their T-cell count above 200, I repeat that vaccine because their body was unable to react to the vaccine initially. I hated losing patients, but you're going to, but it's like, try to learn. Toby Jenkins: So was your practice mostly infectious disease, or did you, were you a –? Dr. Frances Haas: It's a mix. Toby Jenkins: You were a general physician. So you were treating all the other stuff. Dr. Frances Haas: I'm an internal medicine physician who has a special interest in hepatitis C and HIV, HIV rst. Then hepatitis C. The transgender population, I didn't know I was getting into that. I had had no training in it, though we did have a, we were going to have a noontime meeting in med school with somebody who was transgendered, but it got canceled, so I never got to do that. So I can still remember the rst transgender patient that Dr. Beal introduced me to and all. And then –. Toby Jenkins: And what year was that? Dr. Frances Haas: 1999. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And I'm Facebook friends with her. And you probably know her. Toby Jenkins: Well, I have a question. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: On your patient load, about how many people in Tulsa at that time that you had a part of your practice, about how many patients did you have who were living with HIV/AIDS? Dr. Frances Haas: You know, I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Okay. fi fi 10 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah, because, I can remember when I got heavily involved here at the Equality Center, one of the persistent phone calls we had on the helpline, and just people reaching out to us, people were, it was dif cult to nd a doctor. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Who would, and usually it was from somebody who had just recently tested HIV positive, or, anyway, they were, that was a consistent call. And you were one of the few doctors we had that was still taking patients. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. And a problem with the Ryan White Clinic at that time was they had a long wait of time to get in. Those people were scared. So, you know, they, I got a lot of those patients who –. Toby Jenkins: So they were scared because they'd been recently diagnosed? Dr. Frances Haas: Diagnosed, yeah. And they had a –. Toby Jenkins: And they needed to get on the –. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, a three-month waiting period to get into the Ryan White Program. Now, I think that has changed now. Toby Jenkins: Right, and so, individuals who had been recently diagnosed were being told probably – this would have been into the early 2000s – were being told if they could get on medication and treatment, it would keep them from having fullblown AIDS. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So it was a frightening diagnosis. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And then realize you're on a ticking time bomb to make sure you get ahead of the disease. Dr. Frances Haas: And I think the studies we did also helped because a lot of them went on to studies. You got personalized care. I mean, you had a lot of hand-holding by my nurses and education and all – more so than the regular patient. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And I think it gave you lifelong adherence. You know, it gave them an edge. It's like you had your own tutor in school, your own personal tutor. And so, you know, that basis was there for the rest of their life, for the old timers. Toby Jenkins: So, you mentioned earlier that you didn't realize that you were going to have a practice that included the care of transgender individuals. When did you rst start having transgender patients who were looking for gender-af rming care? Dr. Frances Haas: Well, I inherited those from Dr. Beal's practice. fi fi 11 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: I don't know. And, you know, there are the old timers, and then I started getting newer ones, too. �Toby Jenkins: So he had a few. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Because he was one of the few doctors who did it. And the patients did a lot of teaching of me. I mean, they had more time than I did to read. They educated me a lot. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you have any idea when that you began to see, not just the ones you inherited, but new referrals? Dr. Frances Haas: Like 2000. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Wow. You would have been one of the few doctors in town. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And one of the things I noticed over the years, initially, a lot of my patients, I knew once they were in their, usually late 30s, early 40s, as the years went by, I had started having parents bringing in their high school students. And that was de nitely a change. Probably around 2005, 2006, that had started, where the younger people, and it was because they recognized it. They didn't, people, the kids knew they were different, but they didn't know what it was. And being heterosexual, as one patient from Owasso told me, she says, “I hung out with the lesbians,” but she never, she says, “I never felt that it was right.” And she was transgender, female to male. Toby Jenkins: So female to male. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And there's de nitely a difference. Toby Jenkins: Right. So you're doing infectious disease, caregiving, and gender af rming care for transgender persons and gender-expansive persons. I'm trying to make sure I'm using all the current terminology. Dr. Frances Haas: I haven't heard gender-expansive. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So did you have any battles with health insurance companies not wanting to cover certain treatments for all of your populations? Dr. Frances Haas: A lot of times they did not cover the hormones. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. I'm not sure about the of ce visits and all. My of ce manager, you know, could probably tell you that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: But yeah, the hormones, and we would look, you know, trying to see where we could get the cheapest hormones, you know, what drugstore. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And at that time there could be a lot of... fi fi fi fi fi 12 �Toby Jenkins: Did you see an increase of this? I mean, did you begin to see more and more and more because people, they, well, insurance companies being more favorable, but also patients by word of mouth, them telling other individuals? Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, because for several years you were where we referred people, you and just a handful of other doctors. Dr. Frances Haas: And I was glad to see the younger people coming in because cosmetic results were much better. The transition to the appearance of the other improved. Toby Jenkins: Right. Made them more passable and less con ict with presentation. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. It's amazing. I'd be there sitting with the patient. We'd be talking about their blood pressure, cholesterol, and something would come up and they would remind me of their biological sex because I get, you know, I'd be talking about prostate and they were a biological female. And, uh, they, they would remind me because they transitioned so well that, you know, you just, you know, they look like a man. Toby Jenkins: So these would have been individuals who were post-surgery. They had... Where did you refer people for surgical? Dr. Frances Haas: Initially, Stanley Biber out in Trinidad, Colorado. I even went out and met him. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: He's a nice old guy. And then, um, Darcy? Marcy? Toby Jenkins: Dr. Marci Bowers. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Yeah. And then her. And then there was a group down in the Dallas area. Uh, I can't remember their names anymore, that, that did a lot of it. And of course, initially, most people went to (Dr.) Biber or Thailand. A lot of people went to Thailand, and I thought, why Thailand? That didn't seem right. But I learned that they were more accepting of gender identity disorder, and some of their physicians had specialized in that. Toby Jenkins: And also, they were more affordable. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, true. Dennis Neill: Right. Dr. Haas, were you a sole practitioner? Dr. Frances Haas: Yes. Dennis Neill: Did you have any issues staf ng your clinic, given the clientele? Dr. Frances Haas: Not really staf ng it. I did hear a horror story from Dr. Beal about his of ce before I got there. I guess they were having new carpeting put in, and the fl fi fi fi 13 �guys came in and did it, and when they found out that it was an HIV practice, they didn't come back after lunch. And Dr. Beal could tell you a lot of stories about that. Dennis Neill: And then how about – you mentioned your service to adolescents looking at the transition. Were you also working with puberty blockers prior to hormones? So at what age do you see the appropriate transition from blockers to actual hormone therapy? Dr. Frances Haas: Usually, most of the patients who were coming in to me were probably around 16, 17. And I always made sure that they had a psychiatric evaluation before, because there were a few patients that's like, “I think you're crazy,” but they were patients that had gotten into the system. And they always had to bring a parent in with them. So that was part of it. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you start them on puberty blockers at 16 or 17, or did you go ahead and start them on hormones? Because at 16 or 17, several of them had already begun to –. Dr. Frances Haas: Most of them were coming at that age, so I just started them on hormones. They were kind of a little bit older. Toby Jenkins: And so in your research and your work, just curious if you're comfortable, there's such a debate around it right now, and, of course, Oklahoma is restricting care for minors. Your medical opinion, if you're comfortable telling us, do you have any concerns about the treatment of minors or puberty blockers, or do you feel like Oklahoma's made a huge mistake? Dr. Frances Haas: I think they've made a mistake in some areas. I'm okay with the hormones and puberty blockers, because if you stop them, you can usually reverse. There's some questions about fertility issues and all that. But what I am adamantly against is surgery before the age of 18. And I might even go older than that, because I've had some patients who are transgender, and then as I follow them, they had surgery. And later it's like, well, I've met this person, and it's like it's irreversible. Surgery's irreversible. The puberty blockers and hormones are not, you know. They can be reversed as a rule, but surgery you cannot. And so young people can get mixed up, and they can get confused. And, you know, I'm not the same person I was when I was that age. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And so I am de nitely against the surgery. I might make exceptions for somebody who's got the characteristics of both sexes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: But those are not very common. Toby Jenkins: Right. Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And I know I'm probably going to make some enemies with that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, but you're a medical doctor. We want your opinion. We want your position on this. fi 14 �Dr. Frances Haas: It's irreversible, and that's why. Toby Jenkins: So you're saying medical procedures for people who are intersex, who have some ambiguity about the genitalia. Okay. But you de nitely support parents and the physicians being able to prescribe puberty blockers and even some hormone therapies prior to 18. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you nd that parents came well-informed, or were they aggressive with you, demanding that you do this? I mean – Dr. Frances Haas: The patients, they came well-informed. They'd studied, and it was, uh, “I need help.” I didn't, I don't think I had any aggressive parents. I would occasionally get some aggressive patients who was like, “This is what I want,” and I didn't always agree with them. But they were usually in their 20s or 30s. But the parents, no, it's just like, “Help my kid.” You know, “I want what's best for my kid.” Toby Jenkins: So, um, while you've practiced in Oklahoma, and you've done research on a couple of different areas of specialties, um, has it been dif cult to see sometimes there'd be so much friction from the state Capitol trying to, um – Dr. Frances Haas: I don't understand it. It's like, a, as an example, a transgender person, female to male, could look like you. And I don't want a biological female who's transgendered to a male with a big beard and looks like a guy who's going to rape me in the bathroom with me. I'm sorry. But I have no problems with, say, a male to a female who looks female and everything. You know, it's appearance. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And it would be dangerous for somebody who looks female, who's a biological male, to go into a male restroom. Vice versa for a male to, or a female to a male who looks male who goes, is required to go into a female restroom. It's going to freak, you know, women out, and especially if they've got their young kids and everything. And I don't think the legislators understand that. I really wonder if they should have an organized group that goes into the Legislature bathrooms and all and says, you know, here's my paperwork. I'm a biological female. You know, that's what, but I'm required to go into this, you know, female restroom. I'm sorry I look like a male, you know. Toby Jenkins: So you feel like the focus is too much on males to females who present as female but may be biologically male, and they're ignoring the fact that there are trans females who, or trans males who were born female and have transitioned and identify and present as male, and you feel like they're too focused on the gender speci cs. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, and not the appearance. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Is that what's driving, is people's rejection of people, is that what's driving the political animus towards –? Dr. Frances Haas: I think part of it is the politicians, and of course it diverts from other subjects, but I don't think they understand. They don't, they don't understand. fi fi fi fi 15 �It's like when I would be on an airplane taking a trip, sitting next to somebody, and we'd start, you know, talking, I would tell them all, bring up about my HIV and tell them, you know, that I did that, and they'd start asking questions. It was a time to educate, and we need the same thing for the transgender, for them to educate, and maybe trying to meet one-on-one, you know, with legislators and say, you know, I'm a biological female, but they, you know, look de nitely male. And we don't want confrontation. We just want to educate. Toby Jenkins: So, I guess, is it overstating it by saying, obviously what's driving it at the statehouse, the politics, is not good medical science; it's not science; it's just personal animus and bigotry and targeting a speci c community who you don't understand. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, they don't understand it. And I have to say, you know, I didn't understand it. You know, there's a difference between being homosexual and transgender. Toby Jenkins: Right. One's sexual orientation, one is sexual identity. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. A lot of my transgender patients say that they were a male who wanted to transition to female. They look at their penis and their testicles as foreign masses. I mean, they're foreign objects, you know. It's like they're gross. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, very gender dysphoric. Dr. Frances Haas: And my female-to-male looked at the breasts as, oh, my God, you know, and they didn't like them. And I thought one interesting thing on my young people when they come in, female-to-male, and I, you know, would ask them what their bra size was, you know, cup size. And most of the time, they had no idea. A biological female usually knows, “I'm a B cup.” “I'm a D cup.” I mean, you're proud of it. Them, they didn't know, and their parent or a friend would speak up and say, “I think they're about a C cup.” But they never knew because they're binding their breasts. They're hiding them, because to them, they're gross. They're tumors. And I always thought that was an interesting thing. Toby Jenkins: Were all of your transgender patients, by the time they got to you, had they already been seeking counseling and therapy? Dr. Frances Haas: I required them to have counsel and get a referral from a psychiatrist or therapist. Because some of those that I got from Dr. Beale were, it's like I wasn't comfortable with it. And I also reserved, even if I got a psychiatric referral, if it didn't seem right to me, I would refuse to treat. But that only happened once. I checked with the counselor who referred, who was well-versed in it. And she says, “I agree with you.” She says, “But I went through all the testing. And they kind of aced all the questions and everything. But it just didn't, my gut instinct says, “I'm not sure this is right.” And so I went with my gut instinct, and I just declined to treat. Toby Jenkins: So as a physician, I mean, obviously, you want what's best for your patients. So did you have to, even for people living with HIV-AIDS, or just your other patients, did you have to make medical counsel decisions when your patient wanting something that you questioned whether it was good for them? fi fi 16 �Toby Jenkins: So I know over the years, while you've been focused on your patients and your care, you've also kind of been a community activist. I can remember the rst time I met you, it was at the AIDS walk, the annual AIDS walk that we would have in October. And it would be a gathering of the community to raise funds, usually for the Ryan White Clinic and Tulsa Cares. And usually, the money we raised went to those agencies. And that was the rst time I met you. You really stood out. There was a halo around you that said “Dr. Haas.” No, it wasn't that. What made you stand out is here was this little bitty, tiny lady with these massive dogs. And what kind of dogs are those? Dr. Frances Haas: Great Danes. Toby Jenkins: Great Danes. And they were huge. And you were so tiny. And we would do the AIDS walk, which usually was maybe a mile walk. I mean, it was just strictly for fun. But it was to raise funds. Did you enjoy those kind of social interactions? Dr. Frances Haas: I did. Toby Jenkins: You do realize that you added real legitimacy to this when a medical provider was out there? Because most of the time, it was just people from our community, individuals who were living with HIV, and their friends, and their family, and maybe their faith communities. But when the medical providers were there, there was a certain amount of, y'all were going the extra mile. You weren't only treating them. You were ghting for public awareness. Dr. Frances Haas: Well, I think part of that, I'm an osteopathic physician. We treat the whole patient. It's like if the patient can't get the medicine, I need to gure out how I can get the medicine for them. You know, you treat the whole body. It's not just the physical body; it's the mental component, spiritual, any, the monetary, you know, as much as you can. It's treating, you know, the holistic approach. And that's part of it, is being part of the community. And the osteopathic profession actually looks for their medical students. They look at the ones who have been involved. And like, you know, part of my references when I got in, it helped me to get in because my MCAT scores weren't that great. Like I said, some of my grades were good, superb, and some of them weren't so good. But I was active in politics, I was active in church, I was a Jaycee, active in different work things. Toby Jenkins: So your approach, even back when you were nursing, has been a community, you understood the value of community and alliances and resources. I know that there have been many times you've weighed in on negative bills that were being introduced by the Legislature. I want to ask speci cally about a particular bill. Back several years ago, Oklahomans for Equality was trying to advocate for a bill fi fi fi 17 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and that was tough. Some have noticed, and I've seen this with other physicians, as well, when the patient doesn't get what they want, they go and report you on Health Grades. Look at the referrals. It's usually somebody that's like, “They didn't give me my pain medicine.” That's a common one. But I've had patients, I didn't give them the hormones that they wanted. And some of them can get kind of far out there. The minority, by far. But majority of them were, you know, great. �that would not criminalize HIV people for infecting somebody else. And you and I had a big discussion about that, and I'd like to just know your thoughts about that. Criminalization of HIV people is people who knowingly try to infect someone or they don't tell somebody their status and put that person at risk. Now, that discussion was a much larger discussion probably prior to the development of PrEP and PEP and the pre-exposure prophylaxis treatments that are so common now with people living with HIV where the medication almost makes them non-transmittable. Their viral load is undetectable and they're not transmittable. You saw all that develop, so just give us your thoughts on intentionally HIV infecting somebody and the disease. Dr. Frances Haas: I think if you know that you're HIV, you have the responsibility to tell the person that you're going to have a sexual relationship with that you are, and taking precautions. I mean, it's just the right thing to do. Follow the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you don't know that you're infected, and that can happen, and you accidentally infect somebody, that to me is not a crime. But going out and, in fact, knowing you have it and going out and doing it. And I've had patients tell me horror stories I heard. One guy told me about how he and his drug abuse group, you know, stay off drugs, how he purposely slept with every woman in the group. You know, I had another patient who, the guy she was seeing, they were using a condom, and she didn't know that he was HIV, but he was putting a pinhole in on, which she went and checked him, and he had infected her. I had another one who knew he was positive who infected one of my transgender patients. And, you know, a teenager. I had another teenager who, you know, and I always wondered, you know, got infected, gave blood and found out they were infected. And I asked them who did it, and they said somebody at school, but I always worried that he lied to me. And then it was, you know, because I've got to report that stuff. If it's, you know, if an adult would have sexual relationships with a female, or with a... Toby Jenkins: Minor. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Right. Dr. Frances Haas: So I've always wondered about that. Toby Jenkins: And you've kind of seen it all, haven't you? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And so if I understand you, your position is if you know your status, you should be responsible and make sure that you protect others. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: It's just the right thing to do. Because you wouldn't, I don't think if you knew you were positive and you went out and infected somebody, it just seems so wrong and mean and sel sh. Toby Jenkins: And irresponsible. fi 18 �Dr. Frances Haas: And irresponsible. And, you know, now we've got the preventive, so that really helps. Toby Jenkins: But do you feel like there's almost an attitude? I don't know if you still are, you still practicing? Dr. Frances Haas: No. Toby Jenkins: It does feel like among our culture there is almost a, especially for individuals who are living with HIV that are undetectable and non-transmittable. It does feel like we have such a culture of casualness about it now because everybody just assumes that everybody's on PrEP- the pre-exposure prophylaxis- that everybody's on PrEP and that you don't have a responsibility to be transparent. It concerns me because, you know, I lived through the time when silence was death, and where it seems like right now we're in a real precipitous place because even the federal government is restricting funding for HIV treatment and HIV education and organizations and medical services are struggling to nd nancial support. I mean there are documented situations where some states have already begun. They've kicked off thousands of patients who are getting their treatments, and they're telling them they’re going to have to go nd medication someplace else. Dr. Frances Haas: I hope that their providers are going to some of the programs that the pharmaceutical companies have. I usually get down on pharmaceutical companies, but the ones with the HIV were wonderful. I mean, when I had problems getting meds for a patient, I would call up my rep, and they helped me a lot to get my meds that I needed for my patients. Dennis Neill: With regard to your clinic, when you decided to retire, where did your patients go, particularly those that were HIV or trans? Dr. Frances Haas: The ones that were trans went to a provider- and I can't remember their name, but it's over in the- who is a nurse practitioner or PA. You probably know who I mean. Toby Jenkins: Diversity Clinic. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and then some of them went to the Ryan White. There was another local doctor that some of them went to. Dennis Neill: So you feel like there is enough capacity in our community to address these clients? Dr. Frances Haas: I don't know. Dennis Neill: And what year did you actually retire? Dr. Frances Haas: I quit in 2021 when I turned 70. It's like, okay, I'm working a 60hour workweek. I'm getting old. It's time to slow down. Dennis Neill: And did you sell the clinic? Dr. Frances Haas: No, I was working for Warren Clinic then, and I retired from them. Yeah, actually, when I bought the clinic from Jeff Beal and I tried to keep it going, but fi fi fi 19 �I couldn't make the insurance companies pay me, and I went broke with being in private practice, and you just didn't have the time because you're working so many hours and you're focusing on the patient to manage, you know, trying to get the insurance to pay, and then I joined University of Oklahoma and taught there for ve years and then I went to Warren Clinic and then retired from there, and since then I've been working for Geriatric Center of Tulsa until February of this year doing geriatric care and also would have residents in internal medicine from OSU and the medical school or the residency in Tahlequah to learn geriatric medicine. And I quit that in February. I wanted to learn osteopathic manipulation better because I had it in school but I didn't have anybody to practice on. So I asked OSU if I could, you know, kind of sit in on their classes, and they said, “Sure, we'll make you a table trainer.” They actually pay me, I said, “But I, I need to learn.” They said, “You know more than those rst-year students,” and so I've learned a lot. It's changed a lot in the past 30 years, and so I'm learning that, and I'm getting ready to start. I really miss patients and so I'm getting ready to start volunteering for I think it's called the Cura – C U R A – Clinic over in Sapulpa. So looking at that. Toby Jenkins: Well, we're always looking for volunteers here at our medical clinic here in theDr. Frances Haas: I don't have insurance. Toby Jenkins: And they have treated a lot of transgender patients. So we've talked a lot about your professional work and your patient work. Are you partnered? Dr. Frances Haas: You mean like a spouse? Toby Jenkins: Yes, yeah, Dr. Frances Haas: I nally married at age 48. Late to go to medical school; late to marry. Don't have any children except the dogs. My spouse has been very supportive of my work. Initially he was afraid that I would, you know, that I'd pick up HIV. But he's learned. I've educated him, And he was in computer management in the ONEOK building; he had a data center there. As he said, all these data centers that they're proposing here, he was kind of the start of it. Dennis Neill: And how about during your practice, your intersection with HOPE, Tulsa Cares, OkEQ, OSU, was that part of your outreach for your clients? Did you have much interaction with those other organizations? Dr. Frances Haas: I had some with OU. I had, would get residents from OU, internal medicine, rotating through. Toby Jenkins: In the medical school. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and then not too much with OSU. Tulsa Cares, yes, you know, referring people to their nutritional program and all that. We worked together, worked a lot with Sharon Thoele, and HOPE, knew them, and you know, and they would refer patients to me. Toby Jenkins: Patients who had been recently diagnosed. Well, I know you usually attended the World AIDS Day events here at the Equality Center. I think we've had fi fi fi 20 �you speak a couple of times. I just wonder if our panelists have any other questions for you, and did you have anything else you want to make sure we cover? Dr. Frances Haas: I could say after I started doing transgender medicine, my stepbrother became my stepsister. I get a letter. It comes while we're driving out to Colorado, and I read the letter, and it's like, “Oh, well this makes perfect sense, because it's like something's not right about him.” And I can remember my parents, my mom and stepfather, my second stepfather, the good stepfather, talking about, is he gay? You know, they're married, they've got a kid, and when I got that letter, it's like, well this explains everything, and she had surgery in Thailand and everything. Toby Jenkins: So this would be the spouse of your sister? Dr. Frances Haas: It was my second stepfather, his son, is now my stepsister. So, and I've known her since I was 14. Dennis Neill: Now, how's she dealing with it in this new climate? Dr. Frances Haas: Fearful. They're thinking of moving to France. Dennis Neill: Oh, they live in France? Dr. Frances Haas: One reason I am for early treatment is she makes an ugly woman, because she had everything done at 50, started the hormones and all, so you know, you've got the masculinization. And I saw my people who started in high school, the feminization, they just, the appearance was much better. You know, some of them were really drop-dead beautiful. I was stunned. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What a coincidence, though. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, and you know, but she is, you know, a little bit fearful, and talking about moving to France. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She did move to France. Dr. Frances Haas: She's thinking about it, yeah. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She hasn’t yet. Where does she live now? Dr. Frances Haas: Vermont. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Okay. Toby Jenkins: Well I hope Vermont's more... Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: One of the more liberal areas. And what happened with her family after she... Dr. Frances Haas: That was kind of interesting. She, she was married, had a daughter. The marriage was a little rocky, and when this all came about, there was a pretty severe divorce, and the daughter went with the mother and was estranged from the father for years. And then on Facebook, the daughter says, who's Susan ******? And my little sister says, “I'm not answering that.” She says, “Let her Aunt 21 �Nancy handle that.” So Aunt Nancy said, you know, “That's your dad.” And so, then we all got together in Phoenix and had a family reunion. So, got back together. She didn't realize what was going on. Her mom had kept it from her. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How old was she at the time? Dr. Frances Haas: She was probably in high school, but mom just, they just kept it hidden. And she didn't realize the transgender, you know. And so now they have a relationship again. Dennis Neill: Is that true with all extended family too, as far as the transgender? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, you know, I am blessed in my family in that, you know, we're two blended families and we just get along really well. I mean, you know, I've got one niece that's a little bit of a problem, but we've just put the two families together really well for parents marrying later in life and all. So our family's really blessed. I compare it to my husband's family, and it's like he's got one of those families. I got a sister-in-law I don't like. Our family's been blessed in that we all get along. I think my second cousin, I think their son may be transgender. I know his mom called me to talk to me about it. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you've had family and friends and neighbors and patients and, you know. Yeah. We usually ask this, what message would you like to give for the future, for those who come after us, for younger people, younger activists, maybe younger medical providers, what message would you like to give them? Dr. Frances Haas: I think education of what being transgendered is, is incredibly necessary. Confrontation usually does not work. And for those accepting, it's like, as a female, I may like guys with dark hair or I may like guys with baldness. Other people can't stand a bald-headed guy. You can’t tell about sexual attraction. I can remember as a child getting mixed up with my gender when I was probably about 3 or 4. I have very ne hair. Somebody told my mother it'd thicken it up if they cut it short, like a boy. It's like, “Well, I have short hair. I must be a boy.” I named myself Gary. It probably only lasted about a year until my hair started growing out and I realized. They need research on it because there's different places in the brain that turn on and say, “I'm a male.” “I'm a female.” One of them's around age 2 or 3. There's another one in adolescence. On imaging studies, there’s some differences in male and female brains. One thing that I would like to see looked at is a lot of my transgender patients were what I call double-jointed, where they bring the hand back way like this. I don't know if it's that common in the regular population or if it's, you know, a trait of being transgender. I did bring this up with a friend of mine who's going to specialized in that disorder to look into that because it may be genetics. So it's not a choice. It's not a choice. Toby Jenkins: Physical characteristics that are manifest in all sorts of different ways. Certainly, it's just because someone is different or they may not be like everybody else. It's not a reason to vilify them, be violent towards them, or restrict their constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Anything else? Dr. Frances Haas: I think that's about it. fi 22 �Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much. This has been so helpful. Dr. Frances Fae Haas here on May 5th, 2026, at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. You've heard her story here on the History Project. Thank you so much for Dr. Haas. And on behalf of our team, we want to thank you for serving the LGBTQ community, transgender community, our brothers and sisters who lived with HIV/AIDS. Thank you. I'm so glad that you saw that light in the window and you felt called to take care of this community. Thank you so much. 23 � https://history.okeq.org/files/original/f53c19f80f131aebe034995998229578.mp4 07d34ee3cfbdec0c5d595f1bfe0b1d6c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Frances Haas Interview Subject The topic of the resource Frances Haas Oral History Interview from May 5, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this in-depth interview, Dr. Frances Haas shares her remarkable journey from a small-town girl to a pioneering physician serving the LGBTQ community, including HIV/AIDS patients and transgender individuals. She discusses her career, medical insights, advocacy, and the evolving landscape of gender-affirming care. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins, transcribed and edited by Mary Bishop-Baldwin. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Frances Haas, Toby Jenkins, Mary Bishop-Baldwin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 5, 2026 2026 AIDS treatment AIDS/HIV Dr. Frances Fae Haas Frances Haas gender affirming gender affirming care gender-affirming care healthcare HIV research HIV treatment HIV/AIDs Mary Bishop-Baldwin OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Transgender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Laura Arrowsmith Interview Subject The topic of the resource Laura Arrowsmith Oral History Interview from April 23, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this compelling interview, Dr. Laura Arrowsmith shares her personal journey of living as a transgender woman, her medical transition, and her advocacy work in Oklahoma. Her story highlights resilience, medical insights, and the importance of authenticity. This interview with Dr. Laura Arrowsmith explores her journey as a transgender advocate, medical professional, and community leader. She shares insights on medical treatments, advocacy efforts, challenges faced due to political attacks, and her vision for future support for transgender individuals. <strong>Available for onsite research with advance permission.</strong> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 23, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Arrowsmith, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill 2026 activism advocacy Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill discrimination education healthcare interview Laura Arrowsmith OKEQ History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Transgender video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/edde5cee0c87796495da8224fcd4dec0.mp4 5815341d8dca43351639e8b30a0e0535 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/2e3bbcc43ab98711e95823244ffe02e6.pdf 9bfad13b7148d2a1c9be6cc96f451db7 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with David Dees Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: April 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About David Dees: Summary This interview with David Dees offers a deep dive into the history of LGBTQ+ community life in Tulsa, including early club culture, personal experiences with family acceptance, and the evolution of Pride events. It provides valuable insights into the challenges and resilience of the community over decades. Join us for an in-depth interview with David Dees as he shares his experiences and insights from decades of activism, community organizing, and the history of LGBTQ+ life in Tulsa. Discover stories of community resilience, the fight against AIDS, and the importance of education and inclusion. Keywords LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, club culture, family acceptance, Pride events, community resilience LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, community activism, AIDS awareness, LGBTQ+ community, pride, history, activism, community organizing, LGBTQ+ rights Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 03:00 High School Years and Early Independence 06:02 First Jobs and Early Adult Life 09:01 Coming Out and Family Dynamics 11:58 Experiences in Gay Bars 15:06 Navigating Relationships and Identity 18:01 The Impact of Family Acceptance 20:59 Police Harassment and Community Challenges 2 �24:01 Reflections on Parental Relationships 38:58 Navigating Heartbreak: A Lesson in Self-Worth 43:22 Family Dynamics and Coming Out 49:52 The Power of Words: Language and Identity 52:32 The Evolution of the Gay Bar Scene 01:02:25 AIDS Awareness: The Community's Response 01:09:43 Fundraising and Support During the AIDS Crisis 01:17:21 Community Dynamics and Discrimination 01:19:14 Violence and Resilience in the LGBTQ+ Community 01:22:37 The Pulse Nightclub Memorial and Community Solidarity 01:27:27 Fundraising and Support for the LGBTQ+ Community 01:32:36 The Role of Bars in LGBTQ+ History 01:40:05 Legacy and Influence of LGBTQ+ Icons 01:43:10 Compassion and Community Responsibility 01:49:21 Messages for Future Generations David Dees Oral History Interview April 21, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, it's April the 21st, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library, Joe here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. We have David Dees today with us a local business owner and community leader. Those present for the interviews, Amanda Thompson, archivist at the Equality Center, Mary Bishop- Baldwin, renowned journalist and petitioner in the marriage equality lawsuit and also helping here in the archives. And Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality. And our interviewer today is Toby Jenkins. All right, David, I know over the years I've heard you talk a little bit about your family, so I want to get just a little bit of background. Where were you born? David Dees: Southern Florida. Toby Jenkins: Southern Florida? Where at in Florida? David Dees: By way of Lake Okeechobee area, actually. Toby Jenkins: And what was your family, were they from Florida or did they… David Dees: Well, let's see, my mom would have been from Wisconsin, and my dad's family is all Southern Florida people. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you were born there, and what year would that have been? David Dees: 58. Toby Jenkins: 1958, okay, and how did you end up in Oklahoma? David Dees: My dad got transferred out here when I was 14. Toby Jenkins: 14 years old, and what was his background? David Dees: He was an insurance salesman. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you came, you left a place with beaches and sunshine, and old people. David Dees: And old people. Toby Jenkins: And you came to a place that had four seasons, bitter cold in the winter and bitter heat in the summer. What were your thoughts about that as a 14year-old kid? David Dees: I don't even know if I can tell that story or not. I remember my grandmother crying, and I'd ask her, what's going on? And she's like, you're moving to a place where you won't have a house. You'll be in a mud shack with grass on the roof, and you won't have cars, and you'll have to ride ponies. And I remember going up to my mom, I'm like, where the hell are we moving? And my mom says, I swear I've been out there, it's not like that. And thank God it wasn't. Toby Jenkins: And it wasn't? David Dees: It wasn't. Toby Jenkins: And so you would have moved when you were 14 to Tulsa? David Dees: Mm-hmm, 72. Toby Jenkins: And what junior high did you go to? David Dees: Edison. Toby Jenkins: Edison? David Dees: Yeah, Edison was a combo junior, senior, 7 through 12. Toby Jenkins: And then you graduated from high school there. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember any details about your high school years? David Dees: We could smoke in the smoke hole. Toby Jenkins: Smoking in the smoke hole. Oh, Lord. David Dees: You know, it was a pretty fun time. Definitely different from what school is like now, for sure. I think it's more relaxed. We could leave campus to go eat lunch. We could do a lot of stuff, drive to school. I think they do that now still. Toby Jenkins: What year did you graduate? David Dees: 76, bicentennial, baby. Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you remember how many were in your graduating class? David Dees: Oh, Lord. 650, almost 700. Toby Jenkins: Right. 4 �David Dees: It was big. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I think it has less than 300 now. David Dees: Wow, really? Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been right at the apex of Tulsa and Tulsa Public Schools. I think in those days it had about 84,000 students in its school system. David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And it has a third of that now. Most probably because of private schools and urban sprawl and suburbs. David Dees: Well, I remember urban sprawl was starting to be a deal because Union was actually one of the bigger schools then, and then it became Broken Arrow, Jenks, and now even Bixby is considered really growing huge, I think. Toby Jenkins: So did you have special interests in high school? Were the things that you were involved in, other than sneaking around smoking in the smoke holes? David Dees: Smoking in the smoke holes? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. David Dees: No, no, no. All I wanted to do was to get out of school. That's all I could live for. Toby Jenkins: So when you graduated from high school in 1976, what was, kind of what was the climate in the United States at that time? What stands out in your mind and your perspective as a new high school graduate? David Dees: Seems like you made $1.75 an hour and I remember thinking, wow, if I make $600 a month, I can pay my rent, my car payment, my utilities, and eat. Toby Jenkins: And did you go directly from high school into the workforce? David Dees: Absolutely. I was working before I was out of high school. First job I had when I got here was I picked up a paper route with the Tulsa Tribune, six days with the Tulsa Tribune, and threw the Sunday World. And that's how I bought my first car, my first motorcycle. Toby Jenkins: What motorcycle? David Dees: A Honda SL125 dirt bike. Toby Jenkins: Mine was a Kawasaki. David Dees: Remember, they used to have the strip pits over at Yale and, oh gosh, North Yale. What is that out where the airport is? There's Pine and then Apache, Yale and Apache. I used to ride those strip pits all the time out there as a kid. Toby Jenkins: They're still there. They're still riding. David Dees: Still burning too, I think. 5 �Toby Jenkins: They're still riding motorcycles out there too, Sunday afternoons. So, your first car? David Dees: Oh, Lord, do I have to say that? 1976 Ford Pinto Station. A green one. Toby Jenkins: I'm more embarrassed than that. I had a 1976 Gremlin that was orange. David Dees: Oh, dear God. At least it wasn't that horrible gold. I remember that. I'm like, those hubcaps are horrible. Toby Jenkins: Now, was yours a hatchback or a station wagon? David Dees: Mine was a station wagon. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. David Dees: You know, hey, I was cool. I think it had the wood grain down it too. Toby Jenkins: So, what was your first job after high school? David Dees: Oh, Lord, that'd have to have been Fur’s Cafeteria at the Farm. Toby Jenkins: What did you do at Fur’s Cafeteria? David Dees: You do not want to know. So, I started out in the dish room, then wound up on the serving line of all things, and then wound up as a dining room supervisor out there. That was crazy. Toby Jenkins: And so, were you on your own? I mean, had you already moved out of the house? David Dees: The day I graduated, I broke my mom's heart. I'm up early and she's like, where are you going? I said, I've been telling you for a year that I graduated, I'm out of here. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: She didn't think I was serious. Toby Jenkins: Was it just because you wanted independence or did you feel some kind of... David Dees: I think it's a combination of things, honestly. I think I was figuring out that there was something different about me. You know, I already knew because back then, you would have to go sneak to QuikTrip or get a little Playboy magazine or something, you know? So, yeah, I knew there was something different about me. Oh, yeah, that's right. Holy crap. I was kind of a young kid sneaking out, going into the bars. Yikes. I've forgotten about that because I was 15, I guess. Toby Jenkins: Wow. You were already about 15. How do you identify? David Dees: Gay man. Toby Jenkins: Gay man. Ok. So, even at that age, you already had figured out you were different? 6 �David Dees: I knew at 12 I was. Probably, you know, it's real funny because looking back for years, I remember being in... What would I have been in? 3rd or 4th grade and I had a teacher, you know, a male teacher that I always remember was a striking, good-looking man and every time he walked by, I'm like, mmm, English Leather Lime. So, you know, maybe that was the beginning that there was something different about me back then. But I didn't know what it was, you know what I'm saying? Dennis Neill: That was my cologne, too. Toby Jenkins: I was Jovan Musk. David Dees: You know, I may have worn that, too. Aramis and all of those. Toby Jenkins: Alright. So, do you feel like you wanted to be out of the house because you knew you were gay or just you wanted the independence as a young adult? David Dees: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Wanted to come and go as you... Absolutely all of it. Absolutely all of it. You know, part of my life, there was no business that was going on, you know. I'll never forget my mom even coming into my house one time. It was right after I'd moved out. You know, of course, we may have smoked a little weed back then and we may have had cute little bongs and nobody knew what they were. And I remember my mom had come into my house and I'd walk by my table and I'm like, whoa…And she has taken my bong that was like a little Roman girl holding a flower basket and had put flowers in it and then told me how dirty the water was in it. So yeah, there was a lot of reasons when I left home. Toby Jenkins: Where was your first place, if it was your place? David Dees: Oh my god, it was a trailer park and it's still there at Admiral and Yale. Toby Jenkins: Admiral and Yale. David Dees: Behind the K-Mart. Well, it used to be the K-Mart, McElroy now. Toby Jenkins: By the post office? David Dees: Yeah, well, it used to be tiny, tiny and then they made it for big trailers. I mean, there were twice the trailers in there when I lived in there. Toby Jenkins: Did you have a roommate? David Dees: Nope, no. Toby Jenkins: You were working at Fur’s Cafeteria. David Dees: Yep, well, yeah, by then I'd gone on to do something else. I don't even remember what I was doing then. I think I was working downtown somewhere. Toby Jenkins: Now, you mentioned that you could go into the convenience stores and you could buy magazines. David Dees: Your adult magazines. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Yep, you could buy them in there. David Dees: Absolutely. Blue Boy, Playgirl. Seemed like they actually even carried a few that were geared toward gay men. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, Blue Boy. David Dees: Blue Boy was definitely, but there was another one. I can't remember what they were, but of course, I remember going to the clerk. I'm getting this for my mom. Oh yeah, but your mom wants to look at Blue Boy. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you talked about, you hinted at that you were already aware of gay bars and that you were trying to sneak into those. David Dees: Oh Lord, that's right. That is, okay, I do remember how I found my first gay bar. I was, Lord have mercy. This is when I worked at Fur’s and I was dating a girl who dumped me to go with a flaming gay man, of all things. Toby Jenkins: You were just too butch. David Dees: I don't know what it was, but then I remember one night hearing them talk about how, you know, we're gonna go by the gay bar and yell at the queers and the fags and I'm like, oh, cool, you know? And so I go with them and then of course, I'm like, oh, so here's the Friends Lounge at 3rd and Utica, cool. Okay, guys, I need to go home. I don't feel good. My stomach's bothering me. 45 minutes later, I'm back down there sitting in my car on the parking lot. Toby Jenkins: And it was, tell us a little bit about the Friends. That would have been your first gay bar? David Dees: I didn't go into it. I was scared to death, but I mean, I sat, many nights, I sat outside that thing and just watched, watched, watched from a parking lot. The first bar that I ever went into was the Old Queen of Hearts downtown. And that was on, what, like 9th to 10th on Main, but on the east side of the road. It's a parking lot now. Toby Jenkins: On the Fruit Loop? David Dees: Yes, on the Fruit Loop, absolutely. And that was also one that I sat outside forever and I remember, oh, Lord, this is a traumatic experience. I'm sitting in my car and there was this guy that had been, I guess, watching me several weeks just sitting in the car. You know how you do, sit down, look over the door, you know, that far over the glass. And he finally taps on my window. He's like, what are you doing? I said, I'm just sitting here watching. He goes, well, why don't you go in with everybody? And I was like, man, I can't go in there. What if somebody knows me? You know, and of course he's like, well, what the hell do you think they're in there for? I'm like, oh yeah, cool idea. So I go in there. I finally get the courage about 30 minutes later going to this bar and I walk in there and they had a quiet bar in front and then in the back was the disco area. And I remember walking in there and it was so dark, you know, you can't see anything. So you're just kind of stumbling through, making your way through. And she's going to appreciate this story because I'm going to name this lady's name and you'll know her. 8 �So I walk into this thing and then I go through the double doors of the disco. There's a strobe going on. I'm like, holy crap, I can't see anything. And all I remember hearing is a girl scream. Oh my God, that guy that just walked in. I went to high school with him. So I turn around and I run and this little flamboyant cocktail waiter had come in behind me and had his tray with the glasses up like that. And I mean, bam, I hit him so hard. Glassware flew everywhere, knocked him on the ground and I stomped him just going out the door, like running out the door, man. I mean, I'm shoving people out of the way. I'm in the middle of Main Street, almost to the church parking lot across the street because it was right across from the Christian church. And I am almost to where my car's parked and I feel somebody jump on my back and I go down into the street face first and I'm like, don't hurt me, don't hurt me, don't hurt me. And it's this girl going, David Dees, David Dees, I'm Patty Murray and we went to high school together. Sure enough, her and I used to sit in a smoke hole and smoke all the time. Toby Jenkins: Well, we've heard about the legendary Patty because she eventually worked the door at Zippers. David Dees: Yes, and then Dr. Beal's office. She was, you know, in Dr. Beal's office for years when the AIDS epidemic first came on. Or is it crisis, I guess? Both. Toby Jenkins: So, someone you knew from high school clocked you and then dragged you back in. I did go back in. And did you apologize to the waiter? David Dees: I did not apologize to that waiter. I was praying nobody would even remember me. Toby Jenkins: And so you went in and what was that experience once you got in there and it was somebody you knew who helped you? David Dees: You know, I remember the first song I remember hearing, believe it or not, Strawberry Letter 23. That old disco tune. And I'll probably never forget that song because that was the first thing playing in there. And I just remember like, this is pretty cool, you know. Basic room, it wasn't really much of anything. It was just a bunch of people dancing. And I loved the music. Toby Jenkins: Big crowd, small crowd? David Dees: For what I remember, you know, it was probably a pretty decent, it was a full room of people. I don't remember how big the room was at the time, but I believe that was actually, might have been one of the bars that Tim Turner was involved in originally before he went to the Old Plantation and some of the others that he did out, you know, around town. Toby Jenkins: And this was Queen of Hearts, if I'm following? David Dees: Correct. And it went by another name too, but Queen of Hearts was the first name that I remember it being as. And then up the road you had the Zebra Lounge and the Taj Mahal around the corner, which I just noticed they tore all of that down to redevelop that whole block now, where Bank of America built, the branches. 9 �Toby Jenkins: The Holiday Innmis across from the big tall building there. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been in the late 70s, would have been 77? David Dees: No, mid-70s. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So this was before you'd even graduated from high school, right? David Dees: Maybe, I'll let you take it. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. Because this was somebody you knew from high school. Yes, yes. David Dees: Yeah, right after high school. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so were you still working at Fur’s Cafeteria during this time? David Dees: Probably so, actually. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So for many of our viewers, they'll know you as a business owner and a club owner and a DJ and all of that. Tell us a little bit about your early adult life and your, I mean, I'm wanting to jump to how I know you through the clubs, but I'm sure there were some career changes and maybe some relationships. David Dees: Yeah, I was going into Zippers underage. Well, I'd met John Willis at the Old Plantation, which was at 51st and Yale. It had been a bar called Bojangles, and then Tim Turner took it and turned it into a gay club. And that's where I met John Willis. John Willis was, at the time, still married but coming out and in the process of getting ready to divorce. And he did some of their sound system and stuff. So, Lord, I'm trying to think. And then after the Plantation, it was shortly after, I think the Plantation lasted a couple years before it caught fire and burned. And then about that time, George Kravis had done, let's see, I'm trying to remember, I think it was Casablanca first, at 33rd and Yale. And it was supposed to be like a little gambling casino that had slot machines and card games and stuff. And it was geared towards the upper-scale clientele. And then, of course, it got raided by the state, shut down, and then reopened for about six months as Sweetwater Station. And Sweetwater Station was straight, but gay-tolerant. I mean, you went in there, you could dance with another guy, and nobody said anything, you just didn't, yeah, you didn't make it… Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? David Dees: 77, 76, probably, somewhere around that. Toby Jenkins: David, we were talking a little bit about some of the early gay clubs, and this would have been in the mid-'70s, late-'70s, and you would have still been just a young man, possibly sneaking into these clubs, because you may have been underage. During this time, if I remember correctly, all clubs were private clubs, and you had to have a membership to be present, and you had to bring your own liquor, didn't you? Were they? 10 �David Dees: That's how you're supposed to, yes. The way it worked was you had a membership to the club, they'd say, what's your name? You gave them your name, what's your liquor? Crown Royal. So, what they would do was, when they bought Crown Royal, they put your name on the bottle, so everybody's, every bottle up there had a name, but you'd walk up to the bar and you ordered what you want, bourbon and coke, Jack and, you know. Toby Jenkins: So, the experience was similar to what it was, but this was how we got around and said we didn't have liquor by the drink in Oklahoma. David Dees: Correct, correct. Now, yes, very similar to today, but very different from today, because of the police harassment back when Chief Jack Purdy was in, in office, the TPD, they would come through the bars, you know, to check compliance. I remember they would walk through Zippers, and they carried these batons, metal batons, and they'd knock ceiling towels out of the ceiling, like looking for drugs, walk by. I remember one night, they walked by the water fountain that sat between the men's and women's restroom and knocked it over, looking for drugs. They were destructive. They'd knock tables over walking through the bar. It was crazy, it was the craziest stuff you ever saw. Back when the bars were downtown, jaywalking tickets all the time for crossing the street in the middle of the street. Toby Jenkins: They would sit parked outside. David Dees: Oh, absolutely, outside of the gay bar, well, outside the Queen of Hearts at 10th and Main, John Smith, you know, got a ticket for jaywalking. So, they made a point to put your name in the paper, you know, where you were jaywalking and where you were jaywalking at. You know, and of course, it was only at the bars, the gay bars downtown. It wasn't like they were doing it over at, you know, the Mayo Hotel. Toby Jenkins: So, you were working your day job, and you were living independent as a young adult, had your own place. Relationship with your family was still warm and friendly? David Dees: You know, that's kind of a weird thing, too. My family did find out right after I had moved out from home, my brother accidentally outed me because, you know, my brother was one of these kids that I'm, you know, go up to my mom and say, hey, can I borrow the car, where are you going? Well, I'm gonna drive by the gay bar and yell the queers in the bags, you know, and my mom'd be, boys will be boys. So, of course, he's doing that one night, and like I said, I mean, you got used to being chased in the bar by people that wanted to hurt you or do something to you. I mean, I'd had people chase me once with a tire chain from 35th and Winston, running in, get in the parking lot. High school kids usually is what it was, or other high school kids or young adults. Tire chain once, a tire iron that you used to loosen your lug nuts with. That sort of thing. So I remember, it was on a Sunday, because I was going in for the beer bust, and I'm walking in the front door, and just as I pulled the door open, I heard, queer faggot, and I turned around, I don't know what it was, it was just that night, it just hit me, and I'm like, I'll fucking kill you. I'll turn around, I'll go after somebody tonight. You've just caught me right in the right mood. And I bowed up and turned around, I was getting ready to go, and I'm like, oh shit, that's my brother. 11 �And it's my brother driving by 33rd Street towards the Get and Go [convenience store] in my mom's Pontiac. She had this Catalina, so it was a whale of a car. And he's driving by, and he's like, like that, and I'm like, oh shit. And I just went on in, and about that time, I heard chomp, and he jumped the curb, and had grazed the parking lot light at the Get and Go at my mom's car. And I look at it, and I'm like, shit, he's fine. I just went on in the bar, I wasn't gonna deal with it. My younger brother, he's six years younger than me. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so he saw that, and then he told your family. David Dees: Oh yeah, of course, he went home. My mom's like, what happened to my car? Well, I was driving by the queer bar, yelling at the queers, and I saw David going in. And of course, my mom's like, well, why would David be going into a gay bar? And my brother immediately tells mom, well, maybe he likes the music, you know? And so nothing's said for probably about three or four months, okay? And then I remember one night, my mom walked up to me, and she's like, I wanna ask you a question. I'm like, okay. And she's like, are you gay? And I just went flush. I mean, I'm like, shit. And I looked at her, and very tactfully, I said, mom, I want you to think about the question you're asking. And if in your heart, you don't wanna know the answer, don't ask the question, because I've never lied to you, and I'm not gonna lie to you. So she's like, are you gay? Mom, again, I'm gonna tell you, if you don't wanna know the answer to this, don't ask the question. And so she asked me a third time, and I'm like, okay, yeah, I am. And then, of course, immediately, she kind of went into the spiel, like it goes against everything I know. It goes against what religion has taught me. And God, it was such a detailed conversation. I mean, she's really calm about it, but she's like, I don't understand it, and I worry about what kind of life will you have? Will people be mean to you because of it? What if somebody hurts you? She just had all these questions and these fears. And I said, mom, I assure you, I'm comfortable with who I am. I've navigated this water for a while, and I'm okay. Don't worry about what kind of life I'll have, or if I'm happy, or if anything, because I'm okay. And I said, I'm smart enough to know how to protect myself. I know where I'm safe. I know where I'm not safe. I'll be fine. And then her final question, and I made her cry on this, because she stopped and she looked at me and she goes, so, and she was dead serious too. So, when you go out at night, do you put on a pink dress and pink high heels? And I looked at her and I said, where in the fuck did you come up with that? I said, that's the stupidest shit anybody has ever said to me. Where did you come up with that? Then of course, immediately she burst into tears, because it took me a minute to realize that's just all she knew. It's what she had been told, or what she'd been taught, or what she knew about it. So, she wanted to learn, you know, and she told me, she said, I don't understand it, I don't like it, you know, and I'm worried that, you know, you might not get into heaven or something like that. You know, and I said, mom, I'll be honest with you. I said, you know, I've got my relationship with my higher power, and I said, I'm sure when my day comes, we'll sit at a table, we'll have a discussion. I said, I'm sure I'm gonna get passed on through, so, you know, don't worry about that. And. Toby Jenkins: Was your relationship strained after that, or… 12 �David Dees: Not with her, but it was like a couple of months later, you know, I'd gone over to the house, and, you know, I'd go over and help my dad tinker on carburetors on the car, stuff like that. We'd work on a lawnmower, work on my motorcycle, something. And I'd gone over there one Saturday morning, it was a couple months after my mom had found out, and my dad was odd, I mean, I'm just like, hmm. You know, he's got a burr up him, but I don't know what it is. And so we were going to an auto parts store to get a part, and I remember, we're sitting in the car, and we're going north on Sheridan, I think Guy Hinshaw's had a store at Admiral and Memorial or something at one time, years ago. And so that's really dating me, I know. So we're going to this thing, and I remember, my dad's not saying anything, he's just staring straight ahead, and I look over, and the first thing I'm seeing is, I'm like, and his knuckles, he's had the steering wheel so tight, his knuckles were white. And I'm like, okay, this isn't good. And I didn't say anything, and we're sitting there, and we almost get to where we're going, and out of the blue, and I mean, man, I don't think I'll ever forget the tone of his voice, because it absolutely set the relationship that I had with him after that. He was just like, and staring straight ahead, so tell me about this fag shit. And I remember thinking, uh-oh. And I was like, we're only going 35 mile an hour, if I open the door and I roll, how they taught you in school, tuck, drop, and roll, I won't get hurt that bad. And then, again, I don't know what came over me, I thought, you know what, screw this, I'm just not gonna deal with it. And I just looked at him and said, what the hell do you wanna know about it? And then, oh God, that set him off. He's like, you're not my kid, I regret the day you were born, never wanted to see you again, don't fucking ever come to my house again, I mean, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and I'm like, okay, and I got back, we got back to the house, and I got on my bike and I left. Well, it was about a couple of weeks later, my mom calls me up, and she's like, where have you been, you haven't been over here the last few weeks, where have you been? And I said, well, here's the deal, Mom, you know, if we wanna hang out or you wanna see me, you need to either come to my house or we'll go somewhere. I said, because Dad's made it very clear that he doesn't ever wanna see me again, I'm not welcome in his house. And my mom paused for a second and she said, I'm having dinner, dinner will be ready at 7.30, be at the front door, and I said, no, you don't understand. You know, Dad's told me not to come back to the house, I'm not coming back to the house. And she repeated herself again, she said, dinner will be on the table at 7:30, be at the door, and I'm, yes, ma'am. So I did, I showed up at the house, knocked on the door, and she came, and we lived at this house at 35th and Joplin, so it sits up on a hill, has a long sidewalk to it. And I walked up to that thing, walk up to the door, knocked on the door, and she opened the door, and she goes, oh, hold on just a second. And she went and she pushed the door closed, but then it came back open about that far. And so I'm standing there at the door, and God dang, and now this is what solidified my relationship with my mother, okay? I mean, my dad already did what he did that, you know, set the tone for future things with him. But my mom, you know, you gotta 13 �remember too, my mom was June Cleaver from Leave It to Beaver. You know, hair in place, white pearls, always a pretty tote and fetch housewife. Honey, I'm home, get me my beer. Okay, dear, here's the paper. I mean, she just, that was my mom. She was just a product of that era, you know? So I never heard her raise her voice to my dad. She never nothing. And the only way I know to describe this is probably pure, raw anger, maybe a little bit of hatred, I don't know it was. It was just so raw. But I heard her scream at my dad. At the top of her voice she's like: this is half my house, he's my son and as long as I live here he'll always be welcome here. And I turned, I walked off, I was, I was like hell, no, I ain't going in there. And I just walked down the sidewalk. It spooked the shit out of me and I'm going down, I'm getting in my car, I'm almost at my car in the street, getting in my car and my mom, holler, she said: where are you going? And I just stopped. And I did. I just didn't know what to do. I absolutely did not know what to do and I just kind of looked at her and there she goes, I'm fixing to put dinner on the table, come on. And I stood there for a second. She said. I said, come on. I said yes, ma'am, you know. And I walked up the stairs and went into the door and, man, I didn't know what I was gonna see. Honestly, it was like I think, maybe I felt like I was gonna see the silence of the land, slaughter or something. I just don't know what I thought and I walked into the table- my dad's sitting at the table, my brother and my sister is sitting at the table and of course my mom's got her apron on and she goes, have a seat, I'm fixing to serve dinner and nobody looked up. Everybody was just looking down at the table. I mean that's the most uncomfortable dinner I've ever had in my life, but you know, it was, it was really weird. After that, with my dad, it was over. My dad tried to pretend that it just never happened. Okay, the stuff, the stuff that he said you just you never forget. I mean, you know. But it taught me a very powerful lesson: you never say anything in anger, because once you've spoken words, you can't take them back. And I never forgot anything that he said. You know I'll never forget him saying: I regret the day you were born. You know, I wish I'd never had you. You're not my child. I mean that ride home, I mean it was just like duck, I'm just a boom, boom, boom. And I just sat there, you know, and just you know. And I finally told him: dude, I remember telling. I said you know what, dad, you have the right to feel the way you feel, and I understand it and I respect that and if that's how you feel, so be it. You know it is what it is, you know, and that was the last thing I really said to him, you know. And then of course, the deal happened, you know, with my mom doing what she did that night. So my mom honestly, truly taught me what the definition of unconditional love is: absolutely 100% compassion, unconditional love, all of it. You know. Now my dad, on the other hand, just tried to pretend like it had never happened. And you know it, it never…. I don’t know, maybe I made peace with it. I don't know that I ever made peace with him. I just never brought it up with it again. But my relationship with him was never the same. Now, in his final years, when he did get finally and really super poor health- and I knew it was to the point that my mom just could no longer deal with it- I did move back to where they were living to help her with him, you know. 14 �And then, of course, he lived about two weeks afterwards his health had deteriorated pretty bad and he would be like, you know, I wish you'd move out here, I wish you'd come out here and I just, you know, I never, I was never gonna be a dick to him or disrespectful to him, but I just, absolutely I think…I don't know if I was just hurt or if I had just lost respect for the man, in all honesty. Toby Jenkins: That was powerful. Very painful for you to talk about it, but now, you probably over the years, you have interacted with people who have… David Dees: It absolutely shaped me. It reminds me of something that happened at Majestic. Golly, I bet we hadn't been open three or four years. And I remember this kid come, and I call him kid, I don't mean it to be insulting, but I mean, to me, especially being almost 70, I mean, an 18, 19, 20 year old is a kid to me, you know? And I remember this little boy came running up to me and he said, he goes, David, one of my friends is crying, you know, on the porch, something's happened. Can you go help him? And I'm like, oh God, you know? Cause I didn't, at that point, I didn't know what happened. Somebody beat this kid up, somebody do something to him, what's happened? So, you know, I came down the stairs, you know, and this kid's following me. The next thing you know, there's a couple of kids, you know, boys and girls following me. And I, as I get to the front door, I hear this kid sobbing. And I mean, the minute I heard the sob, I'm like, okay, this is a broken heart cry. I mean, I knew what it was, you know? So, I walk out here and it's this young boy, and I bet he's probably 19 or 20. I know he wasn't drinking age, he couldn't have been drinking age. And he's sitting on that park bench we had at the front door and he's just crying. And I'm like, okay, buddy, tell me what's going on that is so terrible that you sound like you've lost your best friend. I said, what's going on? You know, and he's like, my... b-boyf-... boyfriend just broke up with me. And of course, he's blowing snot bubbles and everything, you know? And I just chuckle, I'm like, oh God, your first love. Okay, it makes sense, you know? And so, you know, I just kind of looked at him and I said, okay, tell me a little bit about what's going on here. You know, how long have you known this guy? Th-... three months. I'm like, okay, how long y'all been, how long y'all been together again? Th-th-th-th-th-three months. I'm like, okay, and you're how old? N-n-nineteen, I think he said he was nineteen, because I remember saying, okay, to make that math easy for me, let's just say you're 20. So let's see, if you're 10 years old, that's 3,600 days. So if you're 20 years old, that's 7,200 days, you know, that you've lived life. You know, of course, this kid's just kind of looking at me. And I said, so what happened? He was like, he c-c-c-ccheated on me. And I said, okay, is it the first time? Th-... three times. And I said, so you've been together 90 days out of the 7,200 days you've been alive. You've been with somebody 90 days, and he's cheated on you three times in 90 days out of the 7,000 days you've been alive. Yes. And I said, I just looked at him, I said, do you think you deserve that? You know, is that what you think you deserve? And he's like, no. And I said, you know, I wish I could tell you that in a perfect world, this never happens, I said. But the reality is, you're probably gonna go on to love multiple people, and you're probably going to, I hope it doesn't happen, but you're 15 �probably going to go through several relationship breakups. I mean, it's gonna happen. I said, I'm glad you found out in 90 days out of the 7,000 days you've been alive, rather than go through a long time with somebody to find out that they've been doing things like this to you for a long time. I said, the reality is, you're gonna be okay. You know, pick yourself up. You've got friends in here. They're scared to death, they're worried about you. And of course, a couple people are peeking around that wall looking, you know. And I said, you know, they're worried about you. You'll be fine, you know. You're gonna go on, things will happen, you'll be fine. I promise you, you'll be fine. You know, blow your nose, go back inside, and have fun with your friends, I said. But most importantly, know what you are worth. And know that, you know what, if somebody that you've known in that short a period of time can admit that kind of feeling and make you feel that horrible, go, know what you're worth, because you're worth more than that. Toby Jenkins: Wow, powerful. David Dees: Majestic to me has always kind of been like a little ministry, because I mean, and I've described it as that. That's exactly what it was to me. Toby Jenkins: Absolutely. David Dees: And maybe that's been the key to its longevity. Toby Jenkins: So, all of this is very good insight into what our community's like. You mentioned that your brother would call you these names and you were going to these gay bars. David Dees: There's an interesting story on that. My brother was so horrified by what, because he never intended that to happen. He just honestly answered a question to my mother, you know. And then, of course, shortly after that, he moved to Dallas and it was, let's see, my dad died in 84 that my mom was killed in a car wreck a year later. My dad died at Thanksgiving of 84. My mom got killed at Christmas of 85 and let's see. So Jim graduated- well, he was graduated from college when my mom got killed because she was going to his college graduation. I should have been in the car with her. I had gone to a Christmas party the night before and was hungover and didn't make it. So he, once he graduates, he goes to Dallas. So I guess it was seven, seven or eight years later he called me. He's like: I'm coming to town, let's hang, let's hang out. And I said, well, you know, I'm going out with some friends Friday night. You know, if you want to, you you can go with me. I'm going to Zippers. Yes, because it's before Zippers is closed. So I guess it's several years later, actually a couple years later, because Zippers closed, I think in 88, somewhere around there- and Jim was like: okay, and I told him I'm like: don't be an ass if you, if you're going, if, because you know I was, I was in a long-term relationship during that period from 76 to about 83 or 4, you know, and Jim knew about it. He always kind of made jokes about like where's your wife, or you know where's the other woman had, or the little woman, or so you know, he just made comments like that. And so I said something to him about, don't be an ass. You know, I'm gonna be out with some friends. If you want to come hang out- you truly want to hang out, like you 16 �say you do- then let's go. So we're in Zippers and it was busy- and we're standing by the dance floor. You know that long dance floor. So we're between the restroom and the dance floor staring at the DJ booth and a guy walked by and Jim goes- he's cute, and I bit my tongue because I'm like man, I'm gonna knock the hell out of you, because I thought I wasn't sure if he's mocking me or or just being an ass or what you know, and I don't say anything. And then, probably about another 15 or 20 minutes he's like he's hot, and again I'm just, I'm holding my composure, and then all of a sudden he just takes off and I'm like good, I don't have to deal with you. And about 30 minutes later he shows back up. He's like, I got his phone number and I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, dude, what the hell's going on here? I am confused. I'm like, have you switched teams or what? You batting with us? Yes, yeah. And so I looked at him. I said: you know, are you, are you jacking with me, are you serious? He goes: no, I'm serious, and I said so, when did this happen? And he said, he said he always knew, which is why he was driving by Zippers when he saw me going in. But he said my dad's reaction was so adverse that he was afraid to come out and that's why he snuck off and went to Dallas and had been out living in Dallas. Toby Jenkins: So your mother would have died. David Dees: They never knew. Toby Jenkins: So your parents… David Dees: My parents never knew about him. Now I remember my dad, you know, which goes back to the story. My dad would try- well, you know. Well, let's, I'm gonna work on the lawnmower today. Why don't you come by? And I just at this point wanted nothing to do with him. I mean, you know, I was like I already know who you are. I'll probably never forgive you for all of that. And I remember…One day, you know he said something he's like: well, you know you, just you don't come over, you don't hang out anymore. And I, I just lost it on him and I remember looking, I said you know what you, you and I, our dates are done, I'm done, I'm out of here. You know I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not your buddy, your pal anymore. I said: but I tell you what, you want to play daddy to somebody. You've got a kid in there, a young, a young son in there. I suggest you be a man, you play daddy to him, you know, and that's. I walked off from my dad. That was probably really one of the last few things I really said to my dad a lot as far as anything else. I would acknowledge him. I'd say hi, but that was really the last really hard conversation. And he did, he stepped up to the bat for my brother, you know, and became a good dad to my brother. But my brother was so horrified by what had happened that he was afraid to come out. Toby Jenkins: So I wanted to ask you, you have the recollection of them calling us queer and faggot and saying horrible things. Some of the stuff your dad said. What are your feelings about, we've asked this in interviews, how we use phrases today that are painful to us of a certain age, but yet people want us to use those phrases to identify our community? David Dees: I don't like the words, and for the most part, I won't use the words. 17 �Toby Jenkins: The words? David Dees: Fag, queer, you know, sissy, just a lot of them. That being said, I have learned to respect the fact that maybe you will use it, or you don't like to use it. And that's probably an age thing, like I said, I've gotten to the point where I respect the fact that I don't have to like it, I don't have to agree with it, but that's your choice to do. It's not being used out of malice. So I guess it's just a word. It's only got the power that you give it. I mean, let a non-alphabet soup person use the word. I wouldn't say let a non-gay person, but I mean, trans people I think could say it. They're entitled to use it, gay people, lesbian. There's a lot of the definitions maybe that I don't really quite understand because they didn't exist when I was growing up. But if you're in any part of the community, then I feel like it's your choice if you want to use it and you're okay with it, because maybe it does mean something different to you than it does to me. Toby Jenkins: Is it painful to you if somebody calls you queer? David Dees: I don't like it. Toby Jenkins: Does it bring back some of those emotions where you experienced verbal harassment? David Dees: Oh, it'll piss me off. Because to me, it's a derogatory thing. I mean, I depict it like I said, the N-word. I mean, it can be a very powerful derogatory term. And again, I grew up in that era. I remember even for black people, I remember what it was like for them. I saw it firsthand. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so we have you as a young adult. We've talked a little bit about this, and I just want to…when did you make the transition when you began to work for the clubs? And that became... David Dees: Early 20s. I was in my early 20s. Toby Jenkins: And so it has been a lifetime career, right? David Dees: Pretty much, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that would have... Tell me about your first job in a gay bar or a club. David Dees: That would have been in Zippers. Yeah, it would have been in Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Really? David Dees: Yeah, absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year? David Dees: 84, 85. Toby Jenkins: Work you a bartender or… David Dees: Really technical-minded. I mean, I loved electronics, all this stuff. So I learned the lighting system. I could go in and rebuild those lighting controllers and 18 �those drivers. Back then, everything was all mechanical parts, transistors, Triax, just different electrical parts. So something crapped out, you had to chase it down, troubleshoot it down, solder it back, rebuild it. When the lighting fixtures died, changed transformers in them, I just learned how to... The electrical end of it, and knew it, like the back of my hand was very good at it, picked up on it real quick. John Willis was a genius, and he was just a big old geeky nerd. I mean, he was a nerd, and a hi-fi nerd. He went on to own the Gramophone back in the day, which was a big major high-end hi-fi shop. The sound that was in that club, there's a really storied history on that club. I mean, when Kravis had that built, Richard Long and Associates out of New York, designed and built it. The cabinets were custom made for that room. Toby Jenkins: What club? David Dees: Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Kravis had..George Kravis? Dennis Neill: Yeah, and wasn't it the same team that did Studio 54 in New York? David Dees: Yes, yes. Sound Garage, was it Sound Garage? Or what was the name of that? Something Garage, [Paradise Garage] but yes, the Palladium. Yes, that was the company that built the sound systems for these big clubs. And as a matter of fact, was it, there's a hi-fi magazine, a nationwide hi-fi magazine at the time, that did an article about Zippers, talking about how Richard Long and Associates out of New York had designed this sound system and how it was the most powerful sound system west of the Mississippi. Dennis Neill: That's one reason I'm wearing hearing aids. David Dees: Oh, it was an incredible, you know, for a long time, I actually had part of that sound system too. I still have the lighting controllers that came out of that room. Toby Jenkins: So, you were the lighting and sound tech, or were you the DJ? David Dees: Yes, lighting and sound tech. I didn't learn to DJ until 88, 89, when Jeff Lunsford had turned that bar into Sterling's after John closed Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Real quickly, Crash Landing did you ever DJ at Crash Landing? David Dees: No, Crash Landing was over about, oh Lord, Lewis. So, 3rd and Lewis's Warehouse Market, there's a cul-de-sac about 4th and Lewis. So, Crash Landing was on the north side of the cul-de-sac, the church was on the south side. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: But no, Crash Landing was a competitor to Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Okay, would have been open about the same time. David Dees: Yes, I think Crash Landing maybe only lasted what, a year, two years, maybe. It wasn't a very long-lived club. 19 �Toby Jenkins: This was, you say, around 1984? David Dees: 85, 86, somewhere around there. Toby Jenkins: You would have been 22, by then 23, something like that. David Dees: Oh, I gotta do the math. So, 58, yes, yes, I would have been in my mid20s. Toby Jenkins: So, your first job working, that was your full-time job, what you did. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you mentioned you were in a relationship. So, you would have been upfront and personal to see what was happening in the community. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember this organization, which in those days… David Dees: Yes, that's what I was fixing to say. It was TOHR that had the helpline back in John Willis' office. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, which was at Zippers? David Dees: Correct. John had a line back in his office, and it only operated a few hours, on Friday and Saturday night, like seven to nine or something like that. But it was a phone number that you could call. They would tell you where the bars were at, where there were resources for us, if you needed help. I mean, it was literally the lifeline, the beginning of a lifeline for the community. Toby Jenkins: And so, you were aware that there were other people beginning to organize to address… Speaker 3: Yes. Well, and it seems like, when did we do the first Pride at Mohawk Park? I could swear that that went on back, maybe in the late 70s, but I can't remember if it was late 70s or early 80s, because, okay, the first Pride I remember at Mohawk Park, Zippers had a part in it. I think the Toolbox had a part in it. Was it Toolbox, or was it Tracy's New Edition back then, even? Toby Jenkins: And these would have just been picnics in the park? David Dees: Yes, yeah, yeah. And Coors came out and would have the beer tent. They would supply the beer for us. So, the bar owners would buy hamburgers, hot dogs, and supply the fixings. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and then the organization took over the Pride events in 1882. Dennis Neill: Actually, the organization did the first Pride in Chandler Park in 1982, yeah. And we did a few, but then, you're correct, then it morphed into more of the bars taking over Pride for a number of years. David Dees: Well, now this, we were doing this, I think, since like in the 70s, I remember this. 20 �Toby Jenkins: This is important. I've had individuals talk about there were some picnics before the organization had to take it over. David Dees: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: Now, it would be helpful if eventually we can get enough people to give us the details. David Dees: Well, you know what? I do think, after TOHR, because like I said, TOHR didn't exist in the beginning, and then they did exist with Zippers. So, TOHR may have taken over Pride later on. But yes, the first couple ones that I remember were in Mohawk Park, and way at the very back of the park. I think that area's even closed down now. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. I feel like it's real important that while some of you guys are still alive, we need to find somebody who has some documentation. David Dees: Tim Turner should have some information. Toby Jenkins: I keep hearing that there were some Pride picnics, and I know when this organization had, because they've got the receipts to prove it when they had to take over. And it developed, because I know, I saw the records from 1982 where they estimated they had about 400 at Chandler Park. David Dees: Yes. There's a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: So, okay. So, there was that. And this organization, and Dennis and his collaborators felt like they needed to organize to take care of the community. David Dees: Before TOHR, did it have a different name, or was it TOHR, then it became OHR? Dennis Neill: Other way around. David Dees: It was OHR, and then you did a branch of TOHR. Dennis Neill: Correct. David Dees: Okay, all right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So, about this same period, David, how many gay bars and clubs were there in Tulsa? David Dees: Oh, Lord. Toby Jenkins: Let's say about 1984. David Dees: I'm gonna say 12. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: Probably, because they were scattered all over town. Toby Jenkins: Were places like Zippers, were those gender inclusive? Were there men and women in there together, lesbian couples, male couples? 21 �David Dees: You know, Zippers was. Toby Jenkins: Okay, was there… David Dees: While it was, I'm gonna say it was probably a third women and two thirds men, but Zippers was very… Toby Jenkins: And you would have had drag queen entertainment? David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: As a matter of fact, there's an interesting story about that. We had a drag queen in the 80s. It was back when Safeway stores were around, and Safeway stores, there were several of them that were getting robbed, like armed robbery, okay? And they were looking for this beautiful blonde chick. And of course, when the Tulsa Police Department posts her picture, the gay community's like, huh, that's KC Starr, the drag queen. I kid you not, for six months, TPD thought they were looking for a black woman, or a blonde woman, sorry, before they finally figured out they were looking for a drag queen and popped her. Toby Jenkins: And did arrest her? David Dees: Oh yeah, oh yeah, they got her. Toby Jenkins: So it's 1984, there were people beginning to organize outside of just the private gay clubs. When did you hear about AIDS? David Dees: See, this is gonna be a really interesting story because it was such, it was a different time. I mean, today we've got the internet, we've got all this information. You know, back then, the internet, I don't even think when AIDS first, yeah, the internet was probably a thing, but most people didn't know about it. You know, there were bulletin boards and that sort of thing set up, like for colleges where people get information and stuff. But probably about the time, late 80s, early 90s, when AOL became a thing. With AOL coming around, that's when chat rooms were forming. And so as AIDS became more and more talked about and we knew what it was, you know, the gay plague first and the gay cancer and all this stuff, and then all of a sudden you see that it's kind of spreading in other areas. But there were chat rooms out there because I remember having a friend that was HIV positive and finally passed away in 95. But in the early 90s, I would get online and I would search through all these bulletin board rooms out there that had people living with AIDS and survivors because I kept thinking, okay, what are people doing that's working? What are people doing that's not working? You know, because I was desperate to find anything for this friend of mine. You know, like, oh, I make dandelion milk or I do this. You know, so I'm like, well, dandelions supposedly aren't good for you, but how many people are talking about doing this and how many people, you know, are doing whatever? And, you know, now we know that there's so many different strains of it, but then you didn't know that. So really what you were looking at is the people that are living, what are they doing? You know, maybe that's what's keeping them alive. Toby Jenkins: But before the internet, you would have began to hear, talked about. 22 �David Dees: You heard it on the news. That was really all you heard about. Toby Jenkins: You weren't talking about it in the clubs. David Dees: Nobody knew, really knew what it was. I mean, well, okay, when HIV first started, I was in that relationship, okay? That was about the time. So I missed probably the first four or five years of it. You know, because I was in a monotonous relationship. Then I come out and of course, you know, I'm missing friends that I had from 10 years ago, but that wasn't a big deal because everybody left Tulsa then. You went to Dallas, you went to Denver, you went to San Francisco, you went to New York, you went to Atlanta. Everybody left Tulsa, you know? So it wasn't uncommon to all of a sudden, you know, Bob was here, Bob's not here. So you just, you didn't really think about it. I tell you what was the, what really made it hit home for me was, and I think Sharon was the one that got that information for me, was I remembered, I found an old VHS tape that I'd made of the Oklahoma Quilt when it got brought to Tulsa in 92 or 93, I guess is when it was. Dennis Neill: 90 was the first, 1990 was the first. David Dees: Yes, I got it the second time. Toby Jenkins: Here was the first time it was on display, it was 1990? David Dees: Yes, at the Cox Convention Center, Civic Center. So I went through with the videotape, because as a matter of fact, I just put that on Facebook not too long ago, that video that I had transcribed, because I think I sent you a link to it or something, you'd asked me about that so y'all could have that for the record. So that, man, I'll never forget going in there and it's such a huge room and what felt like were thousands of panels to me. I mean, because they were in great big squares, you know, like what, 50 foot by 50 foot or more, maybe they're 100 by 100 foot squares, you know, with all these panels in a big square. I mean, it was just huge and there were, it felt like hundreds of them, of those big squares in there. And you're walking through and you're looking at this thing and you're like, holy shit, so that's what happened to Bob. Oh my God, there's John. Oh my God, there's Terry. I mean, it was just, it was fucking nuts. I mean, back then, cell phones didn't exist. If you called somebody long distance, long distance was expensive, so you just lost track of people, you know? And it wasn't like you had a way, you didn't even know where somebody moved and if they moved, how do you know where they moved to and how do you get their phone number? And, you know, and then God forbid, it's a dollar a minute to call somebody and talk to them. Toby Jenkins: During this time, so chronologically, I'm gonna ask this. So you're working at Zippers…. David Dees: By then, I was, let's see, Sterling's, Sterling's and then after that was Deep Elm at 61st and Memorial, which was the old Palladium. Lord, and then after that, I did go spend three or four years in a straight club. I wound up, Steve Kitchell owned the Palladium that was at Eaton Square at 61st and Memorial. Well, then 23 �Cindy Robson, who is part of the Robson family, had RCB Bank at the time, back in the day and was married or somehow part of Walmart heir. She opened that bar and called it Deep Elm for a while. Well, she wound up losing it, and that's when Steve Kitchell took me and put me in the Ocean Club, and I spent four years in the Ocean Club. Toby Jenkins: As a DJ? David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: DJ and lighting. Lighting and sound? David Dees: Yes. So for four years, I was kind of out of the gay bar. Toby Jenkins: And then you went from that to David Dees: Concessions. Toby Jenkins: Concessions. David Dees: Correct. Toby Jenkins: And then you went from concessions to... David Dees: To the Silver Star. Toby Jenkins: Silver Star. And then Silver Star, you opened Majestic. David Dees: Majestic. Yeah, 23 years ago. Toby Jenkins: So I just wanted to get all that on the record. During that time, back to HIV-AIDS, did y'all begin to see the community organize and do fundraisers? David Dees: Yes. But I didn't get to be a lot of part of that because I was working at Ocean Club. But that reminds me, there was the boxer, Tommy Morrison. Toby Jenkins: Yes. David Dees: Who contracted HIV. And he was a big player at the Ocean Club. So when that happened... Toby Jenkins: He was an Oklahoma player. David Dees: Yes. That sent... Toby Jenkins: A title holder. David Dees: That sent ripples through the straight community. I mean, when I say ripples, I'm talking like six foot waves. I mean, it was insane. Toby Jenkins: And you were working in a straight club. David Dees: Yes. Yes. And I remember the wave of panic that started going through that bar. Toby Jenkins: When it began to hit what we thought was... 24 �David Dees: All of a sudden, it's in the straight community. Toby Jenkins: Heterosexual community. Yes. David Dees: Yes. David Dees: So then, by that time, when was it that I left? I left OC in 95. So in 95 is when I'm back in our community. Because it's like I told Steve. I said, man, I've been out of my element four years. I appreciate everything that I got to do. And I've lived a dream here. But I'm a fish out of water. And I needed to be back in my element. So then I stepped back into the world where all of a sudden, we're doing all these drag benefits for people that are dying. And as a matter of fact, it's really funny too. The first benefit that Majestic did right after we opened was a drag show benefit to raise money for a headstone for Caitlin Kane, Chad Burrell. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. I remember it. David Dees: Because his family wouldn't put a headstone up. And all of his friends were so distraught over that that they came to me and they said, can we do something and get a headstone? I'm like, yeah, we'll raise some money. And we raised it and we had it made. And his friends had input on what they wanted in it. And we had it placed on his grave. It's still out there. Toby Jenkins: So anything else about how AIDS impacted the community and the fundraising efforts that were going on in the clubs and things like that? David Dees: God, they were just constant. You had like, what, Red Ribbon Review. You had, I mean, everybody was doing it. It seemed like we had food pantries, I think. TOHR, I think, did a lot of stuff. Y'all had a food bank, I think, at one time that we would raise and donate canned goods for and stuff. Catholic Charities. Toby Jenkins: So you had the clubs. When do you remember the Tulsa County Health Department and the HIV testing that began to happen in the clubs? David Dees: I remember that happening with us. I don't think that that was really being done before us because I remember... Toby Jenkins: But what club do you first remember there were people there to do testing? David Dees: Okay, TOHR did STD testing for, like, syphilis and gonorrhea. Did we even have HIV tests for a long time? Dennis Neill: Well, what we did, many of us that were doing the STD testing, then we got certified with the Health Department to do HIV testing. But we did that at the OSU Clinic on Southwest Boulevard. David Dees: That's correct. You are right. You're right. I do remember that now. Dennis Neill: We did not do HIV testing in the bars. David Dees: Yeah. Yeah, we first started doing that... Toby Jenkins: TOHR didn't. 25 �David Dees: No, nobody did. Nobody did. Dennis Neill: Not that I'm aware of. David Dees: No one did. Toby Jenkins: Well when, because when I first came out that was the first thing I was told. David Dees: I think I remember we being the first ones to do. Toby Jenkins: At Star? David Dees: No, at Majestic. Toby Jenkins: No. I first met you, you were the DJ. I was at the Star. David Dees: We did not do HIV testing at the Star. Absolutely did not. Toby Jenkins: Yeah you did. Because the first time I ever walked in a gay bar I saw a table and they said what are they doing they said they're doing HIV testing and that would have been in the late 90s. David Dees: I don't remember that at all. Not at the Star. Absolutely no. Dennis Neill: Well that that could be because you know Hope testing by then was doing mobile testing and I remember going to Renegades and they were testing at Renegades and that would have been in the late, after we spun off Hope. I don't know if we did testing in the bars while Hope was part of OHR. Toby Jenkins: Well I may have it all blurred in my mind. David Dees: Yeah, the Star never did. No, I think they would do a few fundraise drag shows kind of things but no. Toby Jenkins: Okay, the reason I'm saying that is because first time I ever went into a club and you know participated in it was at the Silver Star and in my mind you know maybe Concessions I don't know. I can remember somewhere in a club I asked what that was during that period and my thought is I want to get tested but what if I find out I test positive and I'm here in a club I don't really want that all out here I want to do that privately so I went to Tulsa County Health Department to be tested. David Dees: You know we would set up a little spot upstairs that we curtained off. Toby Jenkins: Definitely at Majestic. Yes. From the day it opened it was serving the community. Because I came to you and said I need to register voters. David Dees: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You set me up, you gave me my own little space. And we registered about 6,000 people through Majestic in a four-month period. I mean I, we would, David and them would line them up just like cattle chutes. Run them up. You had to be registered. This is when we were fighting over marriage equality and George 26 �Bush had said he was going to put the constitutional amendment. So that would have been you know 2003, 2004. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. David Dees: It took a lot of heat for doing HIV testing in the bar from a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: Oh really? David Dees: Oh absolutely. They're like well God what a downer, what are you going to do if this happens? I said you know we've got things in place but but here's the here's the deal and what I would do you know they would be set up and people would just be staring. So what I figured I had to do every time and for the longest time I did do was when they'd come and set up and we'd get people in there I'd go in and get tested and then as soon as I did it you'd have three or four other people do it. Toby Jenkins: So nobody wanted to be the first person to get tested. At this point our community didn't sometimes want to face the reality. David Dees: No absolutely not. Toby Jenkins: They didn't want to face their own mortality. They also didn't want to they didn't want to really be involved in fighting for their own liberation because those kind of things were dull and a downer and and you know I can remember trying to register people to vote and them just cussing me out. Why are you bothering this dude? I'm trying to get my buzz on you know they would get mad. David Dees: I'll say this about our community. Our community can be very interesting. I've said many times that it never ceases to amaze me. The people that scream the loudest about discrimination are oftentimes the worst about doing it and you know I've been it's been said to me many times about what are straight people doing in Majestic? Well this is a man's bar you know I've heard this stuff for years. I remember the Silver Star back in the days when we were also still half country half punk because it started out as country okay and I remember the women lined up along one wall and the men on the other side of the building just glaring at each other across the thing because the men hated that I would play waltzes because the women would waltz and they were too slow and they wanted to two-step and the women hated it because the men would two-step and slam into them. Toby Jenkins: Interesting. I just knew I loved it, it's beautiful. David Dees: Yeah, and the Silver Star really, again, was something that shaped me, that I thought, okay, if I ever get my own room, this is how it will operate. This is what I will tolerate, this is what I will not tolerate. And I've always run that room that way. Toby Jenkins: We've talked a little bit about the violence and the attacks and people being threatened and people being accosted. Do you have any recollection of, like, we've talked about people calling you names and the police harassing you. Do you have recollections of acts of violence? And I wanna lead into this to the night that you hosted the memorial for the Pulse Nightclub shooting. But prior to this, do you remember over the years, acts of violence we talked about? 27 �David Dees: When I was younger, absolutely, I remember going to the bars and what it was like. Toby Jenkins: I think you mentioned some club owner had been killed or? David Dees: That was probably a situation where somebody might have been out doing their thing and ran across somebody that was unsuspected while they were doing their thing. But there was a club owner that was, well, that was murdered out at Mohawk Park. That had a drag cabaret at, do you remember who? Okay. I just didn't wanna say his name. Toby Jenkins: If it's on public record, you can share it. David Dees: Who knows if that's public record now? I mean, because again, it's probably on microfiche somewhere, but I mean, where do you find that microfiche? And did that microfiche survive? Dennis Neill: It's on our website, our history website. David Dees: So, you know, that was- It's Mr. Tim. Dennis Neill: Well, I thought it was the partner of Mr. Tim that was murdered. David Dees: For some reason, I thought it was Mr. Tim. I think it was him, actually, butDennis Neill: And he was also winning the publisher of Another World. David Dees: Yes, I forgot about that little rag mag, yeah. Sure enough, it was Mr. Tim. It was kind of our version of Twit and the Galey back in the day. Sure was. [Editor’s note – In 1990, bar owner Tim Turner wrote a history of the early gay bar life, “A Flash from the Past,” which is in the archives and available at history.okeq.org. In the article, Tim clarifies the Mohawk murder: The Blue Haven opened November, 1948 by the 'much loved' Producer, Activist and Entrepreneur, the late M.C. Parker. M.C. Parker and Tim Warren would later cultivate and produce the largest, most spectacular Oklahoma Gay Event in history, the Miss Gay Oklahoma Pageant at the Camelot Inn. (Tim Warren, his life partner forty years his younger, was later murdered and his body discovered in Mohawk Park. The murder was never solved, as well as most gay murders in our city as I recall.] Toby Jenkins: So, about the violence, being yelled at, being threatened, were there stories of people were beat up outside of the clubs in those 80s, 70s, 80s? Speaker 4: 70s, early 80s, yeah. Maybe it picked up a little bit when AIDS first came on the scene because we all of a sudden became the plague. And this is probably where my, again, another unpopular thing that I always did. I was always kind of straight women, okay? Because when AIDS was just full blown and everybody hated the gays and you couldn't touch them and God forbid, don't eat off a fork or a spoon or something that they've touched or drink out of their glass. Straight women, I mean, we had our fag hags for lack of better words, you know? 28 �So, straight women, to me, were our first ally, really, honestly. So, I always made it a point to treat them with respect because, again, my deal was the only way that I am ever going to educate anybody about gay people is to show you that my skin is the same as yours, it feels the same as yours, it has hair like you. When I cut myself, I bleed red just like you. I am no different from who you are other than the fact of who I fall in love with. Other than that, there's no difference. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember when y'all agreed to host the memorial for the Pulse nightclub shooting? And what a difference the community, I mean, there were skyscrapers that were lit in rainbow colors to show solidarity. David Dees: You know, but here's the deal, Toby. We've always been, Tulsa has always been like that, it seems like. I mean, I noticed that, especially probably in 95, 96, towards 2000, okay, after I left Ocean Club, I didn't tell anybody where I was going. Nobody knew where I was going. I just left, abruptly left. One weekend I was there, one weekend I was not. Nobody knew. So then I'm at Concessions, and it's probably two or three months down the road, and all of a sudden I see three or four girls in there that I knew from the Ocean Club, you know? And then a week later, there were 40 or 50 women in there that I knew from the Ocean Club. You know, eight, nine months later, half the room I knew from the damn Ocean Club. You know, and then all of a sudden, with those women, two or three boyfriends or husbands. And then more, and then more. And it just, all of a sudden, Concessions was the first bar that really was a melting pot. And it was. Because it was right there on Peoria, in the middle of the strip, everything. And that's when, initially when they opened, you entered in the back door through the parking lot alley. Well, as things started growing, Kirk was like, you know what, fuck this shit, we're gonna open the front door, we're here, we're queer, and we're gonna know. And for years, the Peoria, or Brookside Merchants Association, for probably four years of the five years that bar was open, ignored that bar. That it didn't exist. They did everything, boo-ha-ha, all that crap. Never once were we ever included in anything, with anything with the Brookside Merchants Association, never. And then we did that drag queen car wash on the back parking lot. Toby Jenkins: At Concessions? David Dees: Yes. Courtney Farrell and the Brookside Divas did that drag queen car wash. And it blew up. And they did multiple drag queen car washes on that parking lot to raise money. But, you know, getting back to what you were saying with that Pulse thing. You know, it's really funny because all of the years that we've been there, not once have I ever worried about anything happening in that bar. Because it seems like the straight community loves that bar as much as the gay community loved that bar. And I always felt like people just wouldn't tolerate anything being done to it. And nothing in 23 years has ever been done to that room. It's never been vandalized. It's nothing. Toby Jenkins: Very good. Do you remember the Pulse nightclub memorial service that was there? 29 �Toby Jenkins: I can't remember if GT was the mayor or if he was a candidate. He was there. Um, he's running, I can't remember. David Dees: I'll never forget you telling, you shouting, we love you Orlando. And all those people. I mean, it was loud. I mean, there was a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: And the skyscrapers downtown. They had put rainbow things on it. David Dees: It was insane. Toby Jenkins: And the police, for every gay person, there was two police there to protect us that night when we went out to the Guthrie Green. David Dees: I remember they were on the roof of my apartment across from the club, sharpshooters up there. Toby Jenkins: I just wonder, when we came to that place to remember it, it was important that the interfaith community and corporate leaders and political figures knew that we considered that our sacred space, that it was there because people had been murdered in Orlando in a club. DavidDees: Absolutely. Just for having a good time, being themselves. They were hurting nobody. Toby Jenkins: And I just want to say for viewers, multiple times you have hosted memorial services for individuals. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Fundraisers for people in crisis. And for causes, not just for the LGBT community, but foster care organizations, domestic violence organizations. David Dees: Because I mean...Emergency Infant Children Services, for example. We have lesbian women that have children that depend on that, you know? And I've had people go, well, that's not a gay organization. They're helping gay people. What the hell does it matter? And again, you know, it boils down to, even with things that are going on now, why are you still letting these straight people in here? You know what, dude, here's the deal. We're not gonna get anywhere by being shitty to somebody. The only thing that we can do is continue to educate people. Toby Jenkins: Can we put that on a banner? David Dees: Well, it's the truth, it is the truth. Toby Jenkins: It needs to be a logo. David Dees: Why are you trying to, you know, some bad man touched you and hurt you, okay? They're not all doing it, so why are you gonna be mean to everybody? You know, we've got a lot of people out there. Again, the only way we are ever going to get them to understand who we are is to educate them as to who we are and that we are no different. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember when we had the first parade and I believe you, I don't remember what club it was, but I remember you being at the parade and we had a float. I know Renegade's float caught on fire, but … David Dees: Yeah, I just, the thing that stands out for me is I will never, y'all were coming down 15th Street, it seemed like, and I think it was the World got a picture of that flag with everybody carrying that flag. Thing was huge and beautiful, God, it was beautiful. Toby Jenkins: And then for years, we organized over there at the Tulsa Theater, whatever it's called now. What is it called now? David Dees: Tulsa Theater, it was Brady Theater back then. Toby Jenkins: And we would organize in that parking lot and come down and right in the middle of the bike race, the bike race, and you guys had to do all of that. And then the city council told us we had to change our, look, had to change our route. David Dees: You know what's funny about that damn bike race now? As soon as that bike race is over, that crowd comes into the club and it'll catch a drag show. It's, well, you know, we, I remember, I think we were one of the first LGBT organizations that put money into a race. We'd do like a little cash prize for the blah, blah, blah, whatever, little bounty thing or something. And I remember the first time I walked up to them, I'm like, what's this y'all are doing? And they're like, well, you know, different people, like, you know, the first person that comes through that's wearing a Santa hat on, you know, blah, blah, blah. So they'd have all these different things open and I'd be like, okay, you know, 500 bucks for this person or whatever. And I'll never forget the first time I heard, you know, Club Majestic, blah, blah, blah, yeah. And people were like, what? Toby Jenkins: I want to say this for our viewers. I've always appreciated so much your support of all of the community and for everything that was happening. And the unique thing about you, David Dees, is Club Majestic, for as long as I was involved here at the Equality Center, was one of our corporate sponsors for Pride. Now, let me make sure our audience understands the difference. You would write a significant check out of your own business and personal to corporately support Pride as a cash gift. In addition to, you would let us have fundraisers there to raise money for Pride and all the different accoutrements of that. Many times, our clubs would let us have fundraisers at their clubs, and then they counted that as their sponsorship, and they wanted to be recognized as a sponsor, yet we were the ones that raised the money in their clubs. And I was happy to do that. But it alwaysDavid Dees: I get it with them. Toby Jenkins: Because you wrote a check and gave it to us and then let us have a fundraiser there too. David Dees: Yeah, a lot of these smaller clubs just didn't have the means that we had. You know, we were fortunate to be the big boy on the block. So, you know, and when you're the big boy on the block, you've got a little more responsibility and a little more, and you've got more leeway to be able to do something. 31 �Toby Jenkins: But I want it on the record. David Dees: I appreciate that. Toby Jenkins: You did more than the others. David Dees: It was never a thing that was done for recognition. Toby Jenkins: It was just, yeah. So I wonder if our panel, does anybody else have a question for David Dees? And do you have anything specifically you want to make sure we include in our interview? David Dees: Man, I had so many notes. You know, one thing that I wanted to mention too, that I think is really important to bring up in our history is, again, it goes back to back when HIV was devastating us. There's, up on North Denver, there's, I think it's a little Catholic, Hispanic church now, white. But that's where Catholic Charities had the hospice. And that's where I had a lot of friends that actually… Toby Jenkins: St. Joseph House. David Dees: Yes, yes. You know, I had many friends that wound up there because their families either couldn’t take care of them or wouldn't take care of them. And some people I know that passed away there, went there because their families didn't know. Oh, that's another thing I was going to bring up too. Do you remember when TOHR was at 36th and Peoria? Up above and Daddy's Bar and Grill was there. John Willis had that. Dennis Neill: And well, wasn't it Rick's? David Dees: Yes. Dennis Neill: And it wasn't John, it was Jim. David Dees: Jim from, he was with the Tulsa County Court. Jim and Rick, Rick was his partner. And then after they closed it, John did Daddy's there. Dennis Neill: That's right, right. Toby Jenkins: TOHR's first LGBT center. David Dees: Was that, or were you at 41st and Harvard first? Dennis Neill: Yes, the only thing at 41st and Harvard, which is actually 39th and Harvard. It wasn't really large. So we didn't have a community meeting. David Dees: That's correct. Dennis Neill: And we did not have a store there. David Dees: You all just moved the phone lines there, didn't you, from Zippers. Dennis Neill: And then we ran HIV testing out there for a while. David Dees: That's correct. Dennis Neill: And then we ran the AIDS Support Program out there. 32 �Toby Jenkins: Anything else on your notes? David Dees: Well, I definitely, you know, and you do have it on your site, but I think it's important to bring up that Tim Turner, who owned Tim's Playroom, wrote a history of, I mean, like, good Lord. I wish people could have met Gene from the Bamboo Lounge. What a character, what a character. That's all I've got about him. What a character. Everybody had to have a rite of passage. You took them in to meet Gene. Toby Jenkins: At the Bamboo. David Dees: At the Bamboo, yes. And Gene would, we would be like, Gene, John's never been here before. You need to make him a pair of jeans. And oh, Lord. He, boy, he was a flamboyant little queen. Like, first thing, here's what I remember about the Bamboo, okay? I remember walking to the Bamboo and like, what a beautiful aquarium behind the bar with, I've never seen so many dicks in my life in an aquarium. They had dicks that blew air bubbles and dicks that the fish were eating algae off of it. I mean, there were penises everywhere in that aquarium. They probably even had a penis-shaped fish that you just didn't know was in there because you were too busy looking at all the penises in the aquarium. Lord have mercy. But man, what an incredible man he was. He was such, such a neat man. Toby Jenkins: It was such a loss when that club closed. David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Because it had the distinction of being one of the longest clubs around. And we tried, at the time, the present administration, or the previous administration of Obama, they were beginning, the National Park Service was looking for historical places to register on the historical registry. And we were trying to work to get Bamboo included in that. And then it closed. David Dees: You know, the, what was it, another thing that, you know, our bars, too, were so diverse back then. You had your gay men's bar, you had the cruise bar, you had the dance club, the women had their bar. You know, so it was like, I remember, the Zebra Lounge was pretty much down about, what, sixth to seventh on Main. It was the block north of Harrington's, when Harrington's was there. You know, that was where your older clientele hung out. You know, Taj Mahal, of course, was your little hustler bar. Lord have mercy. We had so many different, unique things. You know, TNT's, how long did TNT's go on for? They were a good 20 years. Toby Jenkins: Oh, longer than that. David Dees: Easy. You know, I remember the Club, when it was on Memorial, back in the day. I'll never forget. Jane Ann Earl. Lord, I was, okay, I was working at a bank at the time. I'd just gotten, I was a bank teller for like two or three years, and I'll never forget. You know, she was a larger than life lesbian woman, okay? I mean, and she was a big woman, and she drove a Pontiac Bonneville, big old tank car, and she'd come flying that thing, and I always, here's what I remember about her. On her dash of her car, she had like a leopard print dash cover, and she was just rough and tough. I mean, she was tough, and I always loved her, and she would always look at me, she'd be like, hi, baby. Oh, Lord, she was such a neat lady, Jane Ann Earl. I need to go try to look that name up. She'd have to be dead by now. 33 �Toby Jenkins: The helpful thing from this interview is that we now know that Patty was your high school friend. And rescued you in the street, made you come back in with wanting to get her interviewed. Anything else on your notes? David Dees: And she may or may not remember that, but I was just like, she was like, David Dees, David Dees, I'm Patty Murray, we went to high school together. Don't hurt me. Toby Jenkins: Anything else on your notes that you want to make sure we include? And then I would like if Mary or Dennis have a question for you. David Dees: Oh, absolutely. Let's see. Oh, the Camelot Inn, Trudy Tyler, our first Miss Gay Oklahoma, U.S. of A. She was crowned there. Toby Jenkins: Very good. And that would, do you remember the year? David Dees: I want to say 75, I think. Toby Jenkins: And I've been told, Dennis may know from the archives, because I think it's included in our archives, and it was covered by the media. They would have people protest outside that the Camelot was hosting the pageant. David Dees: Absolutely, absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And the Camelot was a bougie place in those days. David Dees: Yes, it was, absolutely, very much so. And I don't remember if she wrote for the World or the Tribune, but Joanne Gordon. I mean, that lady, and I think I furnished y'all with copies of that, too, where she's like, Joanne discovers the Fruit Loop, and she wrote a whole article, because she would, her and her husband, they'd write editorial, you know, just a little commentary every day, editorial-type thing. Toby Jenkins: And for our audience, what was the Fruit Loop? David Dees: Oh, Lord, the Fruit Loop was, okay, let's see. We go down to 6th Street, okay, so it started at 9th Street, go down past Holy Family Cathedral to 6th Street, then we would head east on 6th Street to Main, and then we'd come up Main, go past Kathy's, 8th and 9th on Main, and then turn right at the apartment complex that was there, and go back to Boulder. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so these were all one-way streets in downtown Tulsa. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And it was like a cruising place where people could… David Dees: Hundreds of people cruising, and it was every night of the week, but Friday and Saturday night, you'd have 100 cars on that parking lot across from Holy Family Cathedral until the cops would run us off. Toby Jenkins: I may know a little bit about it, or maybe not, but it was very popular. David Dees: I know a lot about it. 34 �Toby Jenkins: All right, our panel, does anybody else have a question for David Dees? We've got a person who was there and saw it happen. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: When did the Fruit Loop's driving end? David Dees: 80s, probably, yeah. Because all the bars started moving out of the downtown area. Because for the longest time, they were all downtown. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: As a bar owner, what do you think makes you be so benevolent to the community and take it upon yourself to assist the community in so many ways as you have over the years, rather than just sit back and rake in the money and not care about who you're taking it from? David Dees: Probably being as old as I am and experienced. Honestly, I'm like I said, it all goes back to that deal with my mom. Honestly, with me was she? She just showed me honestly what unconditional love was, what come, what compassion was, and I think I kind of learned: you learn what you will put up with and you learn what you will not put up with. You know, and so then you have to learn how to apply that evenly across the board, and I've always I've, in running that club, it's always been with me, what's fair is fair, and if it's fair for you, then it's fair for you. It's not, it's just not ever been one segment was treated better than another segment. It can't be that way. And it's also been an educational tool, like I've said many times. You know, I I don't want to feel like somebody, oh, you have that little Trump derangement syndrome where I say it's like a ministry. But it kind of was. It was a ministry in a way, because it was a tool to teach people who we were. Again, it was like: you know, look, I have hair on my arm, so do you? So do you? Look, I believe red, so do you. You know I love, so do you. Now, who I love may be different from who you love, but you know that was that was always….just the whole point was: you know we're here, you know what you're, welcome. Come on in, learn about us, have fun with us. We'll have fun with you. Toby Jenkins: So it'd be. To recap, it would be your mother's influence made you look out for others, and not just. David Dees: I think absolutely that that moment with my mom was probably one of the most incredibly pivotal moments in my life. It was. It was a huge life lesson. It's a life lesson I never forgot. David Dees: Dennis, do you have a question for our guests today. Dennis Neill: Not at this time, thank you. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I know that you are maybe not as visible at the club. Do you want to acknowledge the people that run the place? David Dees: Yes, I'm definitely not. I mean, I'm a couple years from 70, so I'm definitely not as up to being up there. I definitely can't race up down the stairs like I used to. As far as hands-on, I'm still very much hands-on behind the scenes I can. I can assure people that I've got people in place, that they're- they're still doing what it is I want done and running it how I want done and a lot of the things that are in place- the, the security that's in place. That's how I want it done and I want it very 35 �visible. I want people to know that, you know we're very well aware of what's going on out there. Toby Jenkins: And the manager today is Chris Shoaf. David Dees: Chris has run that for me technically for probably easily ten years, but he was also a big part even before then. Toby Jenkins: And he would be known to our viewers because of his activism, work and his being a strong advocate. David Dees: Absolutely, I I think I think people don't really realize the amount of time and the and the things that you know, Chris… Chris can be very vocal sometimes and I think some people are like, oh, it's a little dramatic. But I can promise you, if there's something going on, he's the one that's out there barking. He's the dog out in the yard in the middle of the night barking to let you know that, hey, something's going on. Maybe you ought to get up right. Toby Jenkins: And that is the manager at the Majestic. I know another thing I want to before we finish. So in a minute I'm going to ask you what we ask all of our guests: do you have a message for the future, for young people or the people who come after us? So in a minute I'm going to ask you for that. But I wanted you to tell a little bit about I know you live in a house that's on wheels and live in a travel trailer motor home, and I know you're a part of a group of LGBT people that get together. Toby Jenkins: Yes, what's the name of that group? David Dees: There's a couple now. There's one that's based out of Oklahoma City: Pride in the Pines LGBT Camping, and then the greater Tulsa LGBT Camping. It was based, you know, on eastern Oklahoma and then, of course, there's a lot of intermingling with the members in each group. Toby Jenkins: And kind of what is its focus. David Dees: You get together, just get together, hang out, meet, meet, and I mean it's just absolutely, yeah, absolutely, it's fun, that's I used to run, Dennis and John. Their first time I ran into them camping was at Natural Falls, I believe. Toby Jenkins: Very good. So as we finish our time together, I'm going to ask you: do you have a message for the future, for those that come after us? Is there something you want to say? David Dees: Know your worth, absolutely know your worth. Don't settle for anything less you are. I feel like I've tried to lead life by the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you, but don't expect them to do unto you, or you're probably going to be sorely disappointed. But you always, always, always, lead by example, and I get it. Sometimes it's hard and sometimes you turn the cheek, sometimes you get a few teeth knocked out, but it's just how…It's how you've got to do it. It reminds me of the days of Act Up, you know, and I've heard it applied to the riots that went on with George Floyd and all this. I, you know, and I'm somebody said: 36 �well, I just don't agree with doing this and doing that. Well, I remember with Act Up, I didn't used to like some of the things that act up did. I know why they did it, because sometimes you have to go to that extreme to make people stop and go whoa and and look at things and think. Toby Jenkins: And Act Up would have been an activist group that was very visible and involved in the 80s and some of their protests were pretty dramatic, everything from sprinkling the ashes the cremated remains of their lovers on the lawn of the White House, and then they had protests at the cathedrals because of their stand on condemning condom use. David Dees: Absolutely and like, like I said, some of them at the time. Some of these things seem really extreme but again, sometimes you have to stop, step outside of the box, look at what's real. What's going on? What, what is, what is the intent here? Sometimes it looks malice, but maybe it's not. Toby Jenkins: Our time today has been with David Dees. Any closing words, sir, before we finish our time together? David Dees: No, I'm happy. I touched on a lot of things that were important, I think. And there's there's a lot of history that a lot of people don't know about. Toby Jenkins: So when are you going to run for an elected office> David Dees: Absolutely never. Toby Jenkins: Well, I think you've got some campaign slogans. David Dees: I intend to live out my the rest of my years. That's another thing that people need to remember. Live your life happy. That's it. In the grand scheme of things, nothing else matters. Water off a duck's back Toby Jenkins: You've been listening to David Dees David Dees: Preach the gospel. Toby Jenkins: Here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, the headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality and he is a part of our history project. Thank you. Addendum: Given David’s initial work at Zippers, the editor has added the following for the Zippers Facebook page established in 2016 by a group of former patrons of the bar: ABOUT ZIPPERS In 1975, construction began on a 6,023 square foot building on 33rd Street, just west of South Yale Avenue in Tulsa, OK. Completed early in 1976, it originally opened as Casino Disco, a private gambling and dancing club that did not remain open for long. An upscale discotheque named Casablanca followed, but it too was short lived, and was followed by yet another club named Sweetwater Station, which failed to develop a following and also closed in a matter of months. By 1978, the building was just a 37 �little over two years old and had been home to three failed ventures--but that was about to change. In the Fall of 1978, John Willis with the help of an investor from a prominent Tulsa family opened Zippers Electric Circus, a club that catered to a mostly gay clientele, although everyone was welcome. Prior to Zippers, Willis was doing sound work at the Old Plantation, another gay club near 51st and Yale, which shared a parking lot with a Steak and Ale Restaurant. Willis used his knowledge and experience to ensure that the sound system at Zippers would be the finest in the area at the time, and it was said to be the best west of the Mississippi River. Zippers had an intimate atmosphere, and reliably packed in patrons night after night. Theme parties such as Fantasy in Red, Fantasy in Black, and Hollywood Nights attracted even larger crowds, and from time to time entertainers such as Sylvester and Pamala Stanley appeared in the club. Zippers was a trend setter by establishing shared men's and women's rest rooms, which often surprised first time visitors. Zippers was a big hit, and pulled in visitors from other states. It was not unusual to see tags from five or more states on cars in the parking lot. After 10 years, Willis opened a new club named Strokes in the Brookside area of Tulsa, and closed Zippers, ending an era that had to be experienced to be understood, and one that created many friendships and fond memories for everyone fortunate enough to have been a part of it. John Willis passed away in 1993, but he and the establishment he envisioned and created lives on today in the memories of many. This group is dedicated to John Willis, the staff at Zippers who greeted all who entered, poured their drinks, mixed the music, cleaned up the mess, and to everyone who came to dance, drink, and made Zippers a part of their lives from 1978 to 1987. 38 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] David Dees Interview Subject The topic of the resource Donald Dees Oral History Project Interview from April 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Dees, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 21, 2026 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived This interview with David Dees offers a deep dive into the history of LGBTQ+ community life in Tulsa, including early club culture, personal experiences with family acceptance, and the evolution of Pride events. It provides valuable insights into the challenges and resilience of the community over decades. Join us for an in-depth interview with David Dees as he shares his experiences and insights from decades of activism, community organizing, and the history of LGBTQ+ life in Tulsa. Discover stories of community resilience, the fight against AIDS, and the importance of education and inclusion. 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV David Dees Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV/AIDs interview LGBT history OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pride Toby Jenkins transcript video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/a9833ab5fe8328fbfdef9ec903c20de0.mp4 92825093a4ada74a717cc055997e13ba https://history.okeq.org/files/original/3fc48b689864b8bf66fd6a4fc194b5ac.pdf 67e001a6f4d45e09317b66ff95c3f17b PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Nancy McDonald Interview Conducted by Anna Puhl Date: 2021 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, April 4, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �In 2021, Anna Puhl of the OkEq staff did a short interview with Nancy McDonald in her home. The interview focused on Nancy’s work on behalf of the LGBTQ+ community as a founder of PFLAG in Tulsa, her testimony before Congress concerning the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), and involvement with OkEq. Nancy McDonald Interview with Anna Puhl 2021 Nancy McDonald: Well, I think it's important to understand the mission of PFLAG. Yes. PFLAG has three components. It really is supportive of parents and LGBT people who are coming out to their parents on what is this all about. We have come so far since 1987. So we no longer get people coming to PFLAG who are crying because they had gay kids. Then the second component of PFLAG is to educate. Educate ourselves, to educate our family members, to educate our friends, our religious affiliations, the volunteer work that we may do. And the third component is advocacy. And those three prongs hold true for the local chapter as well as the national organization. So the national organization, one of the things that they wanted to support was gay marriage. And we thought, oh, this would never, ever come to be. And then all of a sudden, up pops DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act, sponsored by our congressman Steve Largent. And so they were going to have hearings on DOMA and PFLAG was asked to participate. So I went to Washington to participate on the panel discussion before the Justice Committee in Congress. That was, it was an interesting experience. And I was on the panel with Elizabeth Birch, who was at that time a president of the HRC, Human Resources Committee [Human Rights Campaign, now just HRC]. And also Andrew Sullivan, who was a Republican, a gay man, living with AIDS. And we were the last panel to be interviewed. Prior to that interview, Steve Largent walked into the room where we were being interviewed, all of these people were being interviewed about DOMA. And I thought to myself, it was very crowded, there was one seat to my right, the door was on my left, he wasn't going to get by me. And so I stood up and I said, you know, Representative Largent, I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oh, he was so glad to see me. And then he sort of puzzled, and he said, well, why are you here? And I said, I'm here to testify against DOMA, because that's very hurtful for my daughter and many other LGBT people. At that point in time, I had a hold of his hand. It's a very interesting and funny story. I don't know, I was holding his hand with both of my hands, and I didn't let go, as I was talking about how mean-spirited this piece of legislation was. I think he thought I was contagious, because he kept backing away with me and I wouldn't let go. And there was a photographer from the Washington Post sitting on the floor, snapping these pictures. It's now in the national PFLAG office, Steve Largent almost at a 90-degree angle as he tries to get away from me. So it was sort of funny. But then in the testimony, it was really interesting, because the first person, Elizabeth Birch, testified, and they had her crying, and they attacked her about being a lesbian. The second one was 2 �Andrew Sullivan. Andrew was HIV-positive, he was out, and it was just so meanspirited. And then I was the last person to testify against DOMA, and I took my chair and I just thought to myself, all of these men sitting on this panel are grandparents. And so I introduced myself. I introduced myself as a parent, and a grandparent. And at that point, you could have heard a pin drop in there. And they started asking me questions, and they were sort of mean. You know, I did the best that I could, but I knew when I ended that we were not going to be successful in getting this piece of legislation out of the House. So it moved forward, and then it was such a disappointment to me and to a lot of other people that Bill Clinton signed it. And so that was my one experience in Congress. But I also testified on the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. Anna Puhl: Tell me about it. Nancy McDonald: And that was, you know, what we were trying to do was to get a national law that you could not fire LGBT people because they were gay. That never really happened, but we picked up, you know, many, many, many, many corporations that just embraced that and put that as part of their policies. And then I also testified on HIV-AIDS drugs and the value of the federal government supporting drugs for HIV-AIDS. So, and that was successful. I feel really good about that one. But I had a number of experiences in Congress and working with Congress on policies to protect our LGBT youth. Certainly in Oklahoma, I worked on the antibullying legislation. It was defeated three times before we finally got it through. And it was a lot of education, one-on-one, with the local congressmen, or the local legislators, I should say. And that's a good piece of legislation. One of the challenges there, it does not specifically say gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender youth. It says youth. And the difficulty in getting that piece of legislation through the Oklahoma legislature is that they would get hung up on gay, lesbian, bi, and trans. And so I met with an attorney from ACLU and he said, don't worry about that, Nancy. What we want to get into that bill is all youth. And when we get all youth, that includes our youth. And so if there's any issue, or if someone files suit against a school district for a child being bullied because they're gay, we can use this piece of legislation. And so that's how we got it through the Oklahoma legislature. But we had to work hard. We never did get gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender people in our hate crimes, state-created hate crimes law. It's still a disappointment. Anna Puhl: We have a city ordinance. Nancy McDonald: That's right. We all should be very proud of our city. And the things that have happened in our city government policies, in our non-profit policies, in our corporate policies, in our public schools. Our kids and our teachers are protected. I'm so grateful to Dr. Gist to have continued that even though the former president, I refuse to say his name, the former president immediately abandoned that piece of legislation. 3 �Anna Puhl: Title IX, yeah. What are some challenges that you have overcome in your time, like more specified on OkEq than PFLAG? I love PFLAG stuff. What are some things you've done with OkEq or what are some accomplishments that you think OkEq has done? What are some things, like moments in your history with OkEq that you're proud of? Nancy McDonald: I'm so proud of just having a building that is a safe place for gay, lesbian, bi, trans people. And it is a real tribute to their board of directors and their leadership and the executive director for making that happen. It was a challenge to raise the money for this community center. We should be proud that we did not accept any federal grants, any federal money, any state money. This was raised locally from individuals and corporations and foundations that supported the LGBT community. I'm extremely proud of that. At the last gay pride parade, you know, I was doing it in my wheelchair and I just thought about it. I thought, my gosh, 10,000 plus people. We couldn't even get a parade permit. The city wouldn't let us have a parade. And we walked on the sidewalk to Veterans Park for our first fair community event. It took us two years to get that permit, thanks to Greg Gatewood and his leadership. And then to see the events around the city. And the booths and the people having fun, and it was well done. It was not anything that would make any of us ashamed. I'm always pleased that it's of such good quality, and maybe that's some other coming out of me, but I really want it to be topnotch good quality, something that all of us can be proud of, including parents. Anna Puhl: You brought up something that made me think: hold on, do you want to talk about the library? Nancy McDonald: Okay, I'll talk about the library. Sharon Thoele, who was the executive director of Tulsa Cares- and you know I was part of the founders of Tulsa Cares when we got our first Ryan White money to have a program to service our HIV-AIDS patients and clients- and Sharon Thoele decided that Joe and I needed to be recognized in some visible, tangible way, and so she came up with the idea of the library, and so we thought that was really lovely to have a library in our honor, but, more important than that, to have resources, books and films and videos and whatever pieces of information- for the LGBT community to come in and have a safe place to read and research and do all those things. So yes, Joe and I are very proud of our Joe and Nancy Library. Anna Puhl: I love the Joe and Nancy Library. I work in the History Project a lot, so it's kind of my home base, I think, as here we are in 2021, and I try to think about you know what are the needs. Nancy McDonald: I am still extremely concerned about our kids in public schools, and do we have adequate resources for them at their school level and how do we help our young people address the hate speech that is often directed at them from their peers? That's a big concern. I'm also concerned about how we continue to reach out and try to educate the evangelical person in this community, the churches, you know. I've been in the parades from the very beginning. I've seen the horrible signs. I just think it must be so difficult for LGBT people to walk by those. 4 �I always wanted to roll up to them and say: I've seen your signs for 20 years. You need to get some new ones. I worry about when we put our LGBT people at risk for hate speech. I often reflect on when I testified on DOMA. I know that that room was filled with young LGBT people and they sat there and had to listen to the hate speech from the congressman and I just ache for when that happens. I hope that we can continue to educate that this is no longer an issue. It certainly is better than it was in 1987, but I don't think we can give up and say the job is done- absolutely not. Anna Puhl: This is not a question for the thing, but out of curiosity, at Pride this year did you see anybody protesting? Nancy McDonald: Yes Anna Phul: Okay, I didn't go the whole parade route so I didn't know. Nancy McDonald: They had moved this year. They were up towards the beginning of the parade and they were there with all of their signs and their whistles and hate speech yelling at everybody and it's hateful and thank goodness for the Dykes on Bikes Because they just drove by and made lots of noise in front of them. I'm always grateful for the Dykes on Bikes I've seen I mean I participated in the San Francisco Gay Pride and the New York Gay Pride and I've participated in the 2 AIDS marches on Washington and I'm always grateful for the Dykes on Bikes. Anna Phul: So, how many children do you have and how many grandchildren do you have? Nancy McDonald: Well, we have four children and then we have sort of a semi adopted son. Okay, we never legally adopted him, but he's very much part of our family. And I have eight grandchildren and then Zach our sort of adopted son has two. Our youngest daughter, our gay daughter, went to Booker T. Washington. She's a great soccer player, but this is her mother talking. She went to Tufts University, and she was on the starting squad freshman year and then she has a degree in sociology and women's studies. Wasn't quite sure what she was going to do. She went to San Francisco worked in a law office. Didn't like that, decided that she really would like to be an English teacher of English learners or English language learners. So she went to Stanford and she had a master's and her PhD in education from Stanford and she is Living in Seattle, Washington. She is the headmistress of a private school in Seattle. She is married and she has two children Simon is 17 and Sadie is 14 Anna Phul: Can you were you like did you ever imagine that that she'd be married with two children? Nancy McDonald: No, never. Anna Puhl: Can you say that in a sentence? Does that make sense? Nancy McDonald: I think that every parent dreams about you know, what your children will become. They'll get married, heterosexual, they'll have children. They'll have you know, we will have lovely grandchildren. And you very quickly realize that's 5 �not the case. It is their life. And so when Morva came out we had to reconstruct our hopes and dreams for her. And one of the things was at that point in time, I didn't think she would ever be able to have a family. Not so. And so when she announced to us that she really wanted children, and she wanted us to be a part of that. We said absolutely. We love you no matter what. Held her hand. They're brother and sister [ pointing to a picture]. You know, you just that was not in our hopes and dreams for Morva. Even after she became after she came out, they thought she'll never have a family. But she does, she has a lovely family. Anna Puhl: That's so cool. Yeah,you're gonna like be a showstopper on these things, you know. [ Pointing to Joe McDonald] He can be the quiet one. Nancy McDonald: Super dad. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2021] Nancy McDonald Interview Subject The topic of the resource Nancy McDonald Interview with Anna Puhl from 2021 Description An account of the resource In 2021, Anna Puhl of the OkEq staff did a short interview with Nancy McDonald in her home. The interview focused on Nancy’s work on behalf of the LGBTQ+ community as a founder of PFLAG in Tulsa, her testimony before Congress concerning the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), and involvement with OkEq. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nancy McDonald, Anna Puhl, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 2021 AIDS AIDS drugs AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV drugs Anna Puhl Defense of Marriage Act Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) DOMA HIV HIV drug study HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDS research interview Joe McDonald Nancy and Joe McDonald Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) PFLAG PFLAG Tulsa Chapter Rainbow Library Sharon Thoele transcript Tulsa CARES Tulsa PFLAG video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/b418b81f6d3161bea3adbd38969f2ee7.mp4 6ef8807e5b1b421285ba179ca06e3042 https://history.okeq.org/files/original/56ba85886deb39b4fd73cb848661163a.pdf 9d05b88c5606cc5f8d604ff051d3c330 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Kelly Kirby Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: April 9th, 2025 Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video February 17, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Kelly Kirby Keywords LGBTQ, equality, inclusion, military service, advocacy, personal journey, Kelly Kirby, Oklahoma, history Takeaways ● Kelly Kirby shares his journey of self-discovery and acceptance. ● He became aware of his sexual orientation at a young age. ● Military service provided a unique perspective on identity and acceptance. ● Kelly faced challenges in relationships due to societal expectations. ● He became an advocate for LGBTQ rights in his community. ● His experiences shaped his views on equality and inclusion. ● Kelly's family played a significant role in his life and advocacy. ● He faced threats and discrimination for being openly gay. ● Kelly's involvement in various organizations highlights his commitment to advocacy. ● His reflections on life emphasize the importance of authenticity and acceptance. Summary 2 �This conversation with Kelly Kirby explores his life journey, from his early awareness of his sexual orientation to his military service and subsequent advocacy for LGBTQ rights. Kelly shares personal stories about his family, relationships, and the challenges he faced as an openly gay man in Oklahoma. His commitment to equality and inclusion is evident through his involvement in various organizations and his reflections on the importance of authenticity in one's life. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Kelly Kirby and Background 02:53 Early Life and Education 06:08 Family Dynamics and Community Influence 09:08 Awareness of Sexual Orientation 12:07 Coming Out and Early Relationships 15:00 Military Experience and Identity 17:50 Life in the Military and Relationships 20:53 Navigating Identity in a Conservative Environment 40:01 Exploring the Diversity of Gay Bars 44:00 Life in the Military: Relationships and Identity 46:57 Awareness of Military Policies and Purges 50:13 Navigating Personal Identity and Family Dynamics 53:48 The Impact of Religious Beliefs on Sexual Identity 01:00:00 Transitioning from Religious Constraints to Self-Acceptance 01:05:01 The Journey of Self-Discovery and Acceptance 01:09:59 Building a New Life: Career and Family Dynamics 01:14:59 Reflections on World AIDS Day and Personal Advocacy 01:20:57 Coming Out and Embracing Identity 01:21:54 Leadership in LGBTQ+ Organizations 01:29:15 Media Representation and Advocacy 01:34:09 Challenges of Visibility and Advocacy 01:39:08 Recognition and Legacy 01:46:06 Family Life and Personal Relationships 3 �01:48:12 Final Thoughts and Community Involvement Kelly Kirby Oral History Interview 2025 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, can you tell me your name? Kelly Kirby: Kelly Kirby, K-E-L-L-Y-K-I-R-B-Y. Toby Jenkins: And we're here in your beautiful home, and we wanted to be in front of this beautiful portrait back here that you have, I just love it, kind of fits with our theme today, we're talking about equality and inclusion and LGBTQ history in this part of the country. How old are you, and when were you born? Kelly Kirby: I'm 71, I was born in 1953. Toby Jenkins: And where were you born? Kelly Kirby: Pittsburgh, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Pittsburgh, Kansas. How did you, what brought you to Oklahoma? Kelly Kirby: Well, after grad school, college, Philips Petroleum recruited me, and so I came to Bartlesville, and then, after a year, I was like, I don't want this kind of a career, and so I went to a tax accountant down in Oklahoma City, and worked for him for a couple years, and then I hung out my shingle, and that was in 1982. And, yeah, and that was in Oklahoma City, and ultimately, in 1986, I moved up here because I had more clients in Tulsa than Oklahoma City, and I've been here ever since, 1986. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been, you were a CPA. Kelly Krby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Where did you graduate high school, Pittsburgh? Kelly Kirby: Well, so Pittsburgh State University is one of the state colleges, but they had a teacher school when it was first started, and so I went to a, what I would call, guinea pig school, because we were on the campus, and I went, my kindergarten through my master's in business administration in that same campus. Toby Jenkins: Now, were, was this open to everybody, or did you have to have some kind of unusual academic achievement, or did they see promise in you that you were allowed to attend this particular school, this private school on this campus? Kelly Kirby: Right, well, it was the balance of the students, which were almost, I would say, in any given year, 30 students on each grade level, from K to 12, and about half of them, I would say, were kids of somebody that had something to do with the university, professors, et cetera, kids, and then the other half was from the community of Pittsburgh. So, Pittsburgh is 20,000 people, but we also had 7,000 students on that campus. 4 �Toby Jenkins: Now, what did your parents do in this community? Was this where they had always lived? I mean, were they associated with the university? Kelly Kirby: No, my dad actually grew up in Iowa on a farm, and he, in World War II, he came to Pittsburgh, Kansas to a flying school, and then when he was there, he met my mom, and then he went off to war, and then came back and married her, and she was there, that was her home at Pittsburgh where she was born. Toby Jenkins: And what did your father do for a career after he got out of the military? Kelly Kirby: Well, he actually stayed in the military reserve as an officer. So he had, I don't know, one weekend a month that he had to go a couple of days or something like that, and then a couple of weeks once a year. And he did that for twenty-five or six or seven years. I forget exactly how many. But then also, he went on to become a postman. And that thing came from my mother's side of the thing, because her dad, her uncle, her mother, my grandma, my grandpa, my uncle, great-uncles, and all that, were all in the Postal Service. So my dad retired in the mid-'60s from the military and in the mid-'70s from the post office and had two pensions. Toby Jenkins: Now, did your mother work outside the home, or did she? Kelly Kirby: Well, so my mother was a telephone, what do you call it? Toby Jenkins: Operator? Kelly Kirby: Operator, yeah, exactly. And this was, you know, is this Mrs., you know? If you think Lily Tomlin, that was my mother. Toby Jenkins: One ringy dingy. Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly, exactly. They started having kids. They had three together. My older sister Susie was born in 47. And so six years later, I came along. And then Linda was the last, and she was born in 56. Susie now still lives in Joplin. Linda's in Wichita, and I'm in Tulsa. So we're still, none of us are still in Pittsburgh, but we're, it's an easy way to see each other. And we have good… Toby Jenkins: Now, I'm just curious, what year did you technically graduate from high school, even though you were going to this school on the Pittsburgh campus? Kelly Kirby: 1971 was when I got my, and I want to just put a little piece in here. My mother died when I was five. And, you know, Linda and Susie being the same amount of, she had cancer, and she died at the age of 36. My dad remarried three years later to a widow whose husband had been killed in a fire. And she came along with a son, one child. It's 10 years older than me. So I have a brother also, although he is now deceased. But so that was four kids, and we just meshed. And so I just wanted to put that in there. Toby Jenkins: Now, did your father and your stepmother have any children together? Kelly Kirby: No. 5 �Toby Jenkins: OK, well, I was going to ask you, you graduated in 1971. You went to this school that was on Pittsburgh State University's campus. Was it integrated? Kelly Kirby: Yes, I would say. I don't think that I could say what their policy was. But the kids that were in my classroom, you know, they might be from the Far East or the Near East because of the university. And there was a Black family back across the alley from where in our house was six blocks from the university. So I mean, we just I didn't really know what integration was. It just was, looking back. We're going to get to this, but I, in 1972, after one first semester of college, I enlisted in the United States Air Force. Vietnam was going on, and anyway, and my dad was military, so it was kind of that, and I was going to, my dad flew, actually, because that, I told you before, and so I thought, oh, well, I want to go be in the Air Force and be a pilot. Then I went into the Air Force, totally integrated, I mean, I don't know, somebody may have other, I don't want to make it all whatever, but for the time, I guess, I don't know, but it was just, color was blind to me. Toby Jenkins: So you had gone to school, even though you had gone to school in the 60s, you don't remember integration being an issue, unlike it was here in Tulsa, where they were threatened if they didn't integrate, they were going to force them, they were going to force them to. Kelly Kirby: I don't think that the university would have to have done that. I don't know what, before me, or whatever, and there was, Pittsburgh had two other schools also, one was the public school, and they also had a Catholic school, so there's, there were three, you know, full K through 12 in town. Don't know about, I had some friends from the other schools, but I don't really, I couldn't say what it was like for them, but for me, I, when I really, I guess maybe, probably in the latter 60s, I became aware, I suppose, of people that were being discriminated against. Toby Jenkins: So we talked a little bit about how you came to Oklahoma, I'm just curious, when were you aware of, how do you, what is your sexual orientation, how do you identify? Kelly Kirby: I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Gay. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: When did you become aware of that? I mean, were you in high school, college? Kelly Kirby: Well, I'll tell you what, I would say, a light went on that I couldn't decipher of what it was, when my cousin got his elbow, no, he had his arm broken in a football field and during a game, and I went with my dad and my uncle and into the, the locker room, yeah, which I had not been in one of those, and this would, I would have only been 11, and yeah. Toby Jenkins: So the awareness of male bodies. 6 �Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly. Toby Jenkins: So you would have had that awareness, you went to college there, and you were in the military and all of these, you were still quite young. Any awareness, like, on the campus, on the college campus, were you aware of other gay people? Kelly Kirby: Well, the first time, actually, that I was, I was around them, but I didn't actually know that that was what was going on until...I'm trying to think about when I want to say that. Let's see, Christmas of 1970. Susie left Pittsburgh and went to live in Omaha for three years. And after she was partway through her college as well, her college, because remember she’s six years older than me. So, we all got degrees from that university as well. And but she had a layout period and she came back at Christmas. And I had been going into this bar in Pittsburgh, Kansas, I think I started going in 1969. And it was like a pizza place. And it was just called the Alley. And it was like a downstairs thing in the in the downtown. Twenty thousand people. Kansas and not only for Kansas, you know, but anyway, I started going in there. It wasn't until I said I'd been, maybe 68, 69, 70, but in the 70, Susie and I, we went out and I told her I had this little bar that I could get into because it was Kansas was 18 beer. Although I was not I was going in there when I was 15. But but because of the pizza, it was kind of like a little…. it was Susie and I, we wanted to go out just and just have a time for ourselves. And so we went in there and in the bar was not very busy and we sat at the bar and the guy that was behind the bar Susie graduated from high school. And as as we drove home, to my parents home after we came out of the Alley, she said, do you know that this man is gay? I don't know exactly what words, but the bartender? And so, you know, it's kind of like, where do you get the information in that young place and, you know, no Will and Grace. No, none of that. You know, there really wasn't much of anything good or bad. It was just there. Toby Jenkins: But when she said this to you, I'm not sure exactly what your age was, you said it was Christmas 1970. Kelly Kirby: So I would have just turned 17. Toby Jenkins: So you hadn't went into the military yet. When she said, did you know he's gay, you knew what that meant or you had more questions about it? Kelly Kirby: I can't be that really exactly what that is. But yeah, I don't know that I could pinpoint, but it started something that it was to me. I'll tell you what, I think this is probably the best way to say it. It was I was curious. And so I started going down to the Alley. Sometimes I'd been going with buddies or whatever, whatever. But I just went down there by myself. And I went several times. I don't know. I did probably when I could get out to that place. I went down there. And so about….It was March, so not quite three months, a guy came and sat down by me in the bar and he had seen me in there. He was also a friend of my sister's from the university. And I guess I had a date. I didn't know that that's what it was, anything to call it. But we went to the movies. Went with this guy. We went back to the bar on Saturday night. And then on Sunday, we got in my car and went out in the country just outside of Pittsburgh or whatever. And and then my car. So something happened. I don't know…I ran out of gas or something. My car 7 �quit. And so we went to a farmhouse and got somebody to one of his friends to bring it back to Pittsburg. And so the friend, I don't remember the name, Larry. Larry is the guy that was I was talking to. I don't remember the other guy's name. But anyway, we went back to this guy's house. This guy disappeared and Larry got me in bed. Toby Jenkins: That was your first… So you had car broke down and you that was your first same sex intimate romance. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: OK. So Pittsburgh, Kansas. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Kelly Kirby kissed a boy and decided he liked it. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. And a little bit more than kiss. Toby Jenkins: So you were there and going to school. You left school to go into the service military service. Well, I want to know about that. Kelly Kirby: March of 71, I met Larry, and I sent Susie a letter and said, told her that I had a boyfriend that it was, and it was him, Larry. And she came back from Omaha for just for a weekend and just to see what's going on with Kelly. And so, you know, we, in the long run, my sisters were just so helpful. And, and we were three kids with, we lost our mother. And, you know, there's a, there's a stepmother and all that. But, but we were just really, we were tight. I mean we're still very close. And so Susie and I talked to Linda about it. Susie must have told me it might not be good to tell our parents. And there's a long story about that, and that's not necessary. That's, that's enough said about that. So I didn't come out to my parents then, but I did go back to school, a senior, 17 years old, and I started telling some of my friends that I was gay. I don't even know really what the hell that was, but I did kind of. And Larry was a two or three weeks thing. I was like, I clutched to him and, and it was like, he wasn't ready for clutch. He stayed nice to me and all that stuff. But I was going down there [the Alley]. I didn't know, but I went in there on like 10 o'clock on Saturday night. And there's men dancing and in Pittsburgh, Kansas. So I came out to a group of people at that time. I didn't know a hell lot, a lot more than, than what they did, but most of them were interested. And like my whole class knew that I was gay, Whatever they were saying behind my back, I don't know, but nobody punched me in the nose or called...Well, I actually did have a, one guy called me a queer and that was when I was 16 and it was in school showers, guy here in the, in the shower. And I'm looking at him and he said, what are you looking at queer? So that was the first time I know that, that word even, you know, anyway, sorry, sidebar. Toby Jenkins: No, but important. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Yeah, exactly. 8 �Toby Jenkins: First time you really felt public shame or, or him trying to humiliate you because he, so I think that's an important part for all of us. First time we felt public humiliation because of something about us that we don't even realize people can see.. Remarkable that you, your sister may not have understood it, but supported it and that you were out to kids in your high school. Kelly Kirby: Well, Susie, I obviously had some friends that were gay and from college. Toby Jenkins: Now question, do you feel like perhaps the fact that you were on an academic campus, a university setting, which would have emphasized liberal arts and probably more progressive thoughts? I mean, I keep saying this, Kansas, Pittsburgh, Kansas, middle of the country. You think you probably were in a bubble of awareness that maybe somebody else living in Kansas wouldn't have even… Kelly Kirby: I don't know. I know that I can say I had a really good education. I didn't know that's what I had. I just figured everybody that went to school got what I got. And you are right. It was liberal and inclusive. I don't know about homosexuality, but at least it worked in race and those sort of things. Maybe not the whole town, but the campus was largely that way. Toby Jenkins: So you went into the military. Kelly Kirby: Right. Toby Jenkins: I know it was the Vietnam War. Were you drafted? Kelly Kirby: No.Drafting then was kind of like a bingo where the letters come out and they put all the birthdays in the bucket. And the order that the numbers come out were the person who was most likely to be drafted. And the year before me, the highest one, it was 90 out of 365, of course. That's everybody's birthdays, actually. Toby Jenkins: But you weren't drafted. Kelly Kirby: I was not. Toby Jenkins: Were you in the ROTC at the university? Kelly Kirby: I enlisted. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Kelly Kirby: I enlisted because my birthday was pulled out of the hat by number 25. And so it was imminent that I would be, would be… my brother had been drafted. My two cousins had been drafted and all older than me. And I wanted what my dad did. And that wouldn't be Army or Navy. One of my cousins was in the Navy. But what I wanted was, I wanted to fly. I wanted to be a flyer. Toby Jenkins: Right. Kelly Kirby: And anyway, so I went in the Air Force. 9 �Toby Jenkins: I have a question. So already you are kind of aware that you are sexually attracted to your own sex. You're homosexual. You've already had some gay intimate moments. And you decide to go into the military. Was there, and surely you're aware that at that time you were going to be questioned about your sexuality as an induction? They were going to ask you, were you homosexual? Kelly Kirby: Well, I did. They did. I didn't know they were going to, but they did. Toby Jenkins: Oh, you weren't aware. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, I wasn't aware they were going to do it, but they did. And I just denied. You know, I said no. I answered the question no, and then they went on. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, that was, you weren't aware that they were going to ask that. So you get into it. Kelly Kirby: Right. Toby Jenkins: Where did you go to basic? Kelly Kirby: Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. I was there for a couple months. Then I went to Keesler, it's in Mississippi, on the coast. And I knew some guys in basic that were gay. I knew some people in, and actually what I would call have boyfriends in training for a couple of months or a little over that. All clandestine…That was it. I was strictly from 17 to 21, and we'll get to that. But I was only dated men. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So you went through basic, then did you become a pilot? Kelly Kirby: Well, no, actually they had too many. Because it was kind of running, winding down a little bit. What they needed was more, they didn't need white boy me. I couldn't go to flying school. They needed blacks orToby Jenkins: Or Latinos. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, because they did have actually integrated the military at that time. And… Toby Jenkins: So they saw the importance of diversity and, yeah. Kelly Kirby: Or there was, I mean, you look at Johnson and Nixon. Those were the years where a whole lot of thatToby Jenkins: Affirmative action programs. Kelly Kirby: Exactly. Toby Jenkins: So where did you get assigned? Kelly Kirby: So I got, I had a desk for the Air Force. I was administrative, and I was in assignments. Basically, I was, my job was to do, assign other people to do whatever. So my first duty station was Vandenberg in California. It's on the ocean. And so there was a gay guy in my little pod there. And so we kind of had friends. And an hour away was 10 �Santa Barbara. And so I would go on the weekend to the gay bars down in Santa Barbara. And I had some boyfriends or whatever. Toby Jenkins: And did you go with another group of gay guys from your base? Like y'all had made friends, or did you just drive down there by yourself? Kelly Kirby: Mostly myself. Toby Jenkins: And when you got down there, Kelly, did you ever see other military personnel who were down in Santa Barbara? I mean, did you, because that's what, about 45 miles away? Kelly Kirby: Yeah, it's about an hour, yeah, so. Toby Jenkins: I mean, was the purpose of going there, was so that you could put some distance between you andKelly Kirby: Well, it's where the gay bar is. I was aware, particularly, too, for the women. The lesbians, you know, we all had to hang together and be helpful to each other and put up for each other and be damn quiet about it. Toby Jenkins: So you knew lesbian women in the military? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yeah, in my office. Toby Jenkins: Wow, impressive. And you kind of covered for each other? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Did you have a boyfriend when you were in the military? Kelly Kirby: I had several. Toby Jenkins: Okay. I got, I just, out of curiosity, that gay bar that you went to, kind of describe what it was like, the environment. Kelly Kirby: I mean- You're talking about back in Pittsburgh or in- Santa Barbara. Toby Jenkins: Santa Barbara. Because to me, you're in a larger urban area. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: It's on the West Coast. Kelly Kirby: Where the age was 21, which I was not, but I could still get in. Toby Jenkins: So we kind of, in our mind, we kind of imagine what a gay bar looks like today. So was this an integrated space? Were there people of all races in this bar? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: What about genders? Were there female persons, male persons? Did you see cross-dressers, transsexuals, transgender persons? 11 �Kelly Kirby: As to the latter two, that was not a thing that you knew that somebody was. I mean, who is it that was? There was somebody in, went to Sweden, or, and that's 1969, is that right? Toby Jenkins: Christine Jorgensen Kelly Kirby: and that's 1969, is that right? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Kelly Kirby: It's not as big a thing. Toby Jenkins: So would there have been cross-dressers in the bar? Kelly Kirby: Maybe. Toby Jenkins: But male persons and female persons were in the same bar. Kelly Kirby: I think they were probably the girls had one bar and the guys had about three in Santa Barbara at that time, and that's probably where they- but that doesn't mean they didn't go into the other. Toby Jenkins: Or were there drag queens performing? Kelly Kirby: No, not that I recall. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about leather fetish, kink identities? Were those playing out in the clubs at the time? Kelly Kirby: A man from Los Angeles came into the bar in Santa Barbara and I had an office job, so eight to five, got my weekends off. This guy said: you know, would you like to come down to…You know you want to come down and spend the night and I'll show you around on Saturday. I think he was probably 40, and I was 18 or 19 by that time. I couldn't tell you his name and I was the only one who probably saw him maybe once before, but I got exposed to some of the leather king, fetish and and probably the drag queens and and some of that. I don't know how much. Toby Jenkins: You're in the military. And then how did the rest of your life play out with that, your career, your military career, your, your relationships? Kelly Kirby: So I was at Vandenberg for a year and a half. I was in a short assignment of, I think, about four or five months in Omaha and by that time, I was at the place where I went to the bar in Omaha and met a guy there. And, we just kind of hit it off, and three months we were going on. And then when I was going back to Vandenberg, he came with me, and we were going to get an apartment. And so, that's where I was. In the end, that didn't really work out. My next assignment, after another four or five months in California, I went to Eielson Air Force Base in Fairbanks, Alaska. So that was my last place, duty station. And I was there for 13 months or something like that. Toby Jenkins: Were there gay people in Alaska? 12 �Kelly Kirby: Yes, yes, there was a gay bar in Fairbanks, a town of 40,000, which was the second biggest town in Alaska at the time. The pipeline, I don't know if you know that or have any… So they were building it, and it went across the base. So there's all these men that go or were here and going up the line. And, oh, I had a boyfriend that was an Eskimo. I mean… Toby Jenkins: An indigenous person. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, exactly. At least I had some dates with him. And he took me around up to the Arctic Circle. And, you know, we went to a hotel and stuff like that, spent the weekends and everything. Toby Jenkins: Now, Kelly, I'm curious. To me, you sound like your life was pretty comfortable. Were you aware e of people being kicked out of the military because they were gay? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yes. So there was an officer who got caught fucking an airman, and he got sent to Leavenworth, like prison. So, yeah, I was aware of that. Toby Jenkins: Because of the rank? Kelly Kirby: Because of the rank and because you don't fraternize, the enlisted people and the officers. They're, you know, whatever. But so, yeah, I knew what was out. And after, let's see, I left Vandenberg in June of 74. And in August of 74, they had a clean house witch hunt. And 110 people male and female were purged from the with bad dishonorable discharge. Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? Did you say 74? Kelly Kirby: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And that was in San Diego or? Kelly Kirby: It was Vandenberg. Vandenberg. Yeah, that's where I was. So, you know, I could have been swept up into that, except I was three months gone. Toby Jenkins: Do you think some of the people told on the other people for reduced sentences? Kelly Kirby: Yeah, there might be. Actually, I think there were plants and things like that, or somebody that got caught. They want them to get to tell on other people. And they will give you this or I'll give you a general instead of an undesirable or a dishonorable. Yeah, there's also there was those four that they can… Toby Jenkins: So just curious at this time when you were living your best life, were you and you were interacting with so many LGBT people. And also you were dealing with the military's…You could not be in the military. I mean, it was the express rule. It wasn't Don't tell you just could not be in it at all. Kelly Kirby: Yes. 13 �Toby Jenkins: Were you also aware of stuff going on nationally? I mean, like, had you heard of the Stonewall riots? Kelly Kirby: Oh, I knew that. Toby Jenkins: Have you heard of gay pride parades? Kelly Kirby: I knew about Stonewall from Pittsburgh, Kansas, at the Alley Bar. So, yes. Toby Jenkins: So you were aware of it? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yeah, I was. Toby Jenkins: Nationally, LGBT people were beginning to resist and demand. And even within the military, there was a strong advocacy to try to pressure Congress to change the rules. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. Well, OK, so let's there's one thing that I wanted to say about six months going back to when I had Larry, the boyfriend in 1971, when I was still in high school, six months in there…. I got drunk and I went home at two in the morning and my dad was sitting up waiting for me and I had a card that I had somebody given me in the Alley that said gay pride or gay… It was something gay pride or something, something I don't remember. It was gay something. Anyway, I remember. And it was like a calling card, you know. And so he's like, where have you been? What you've been doing? And I've flippantly threw the card at him. When I did that, it was like the first time I told my dad I was gay. I want to say I'll capitalize it as five minutes, 30 seconds for me to blurt it out, four and a half minutes for him to yell at me. And we never talked about it again until 20 years later. So. This holds over me through that 20 years. So, I know what's in me, but…'ll be thrown away from my family and I don’t want to say go too much about Susie. Other than she didn't go to Omaha by choice. It was by force. Toby Jenkins: This is your sister. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Kelly Kirby: And so and that was why Susie told me, don't tell your parents, because that's why she was coming back down just to see me. To just help me out and whatever. And I actually lived after I graduated from high school, I moved up to Omaha for the summer and lived with her in an apartment. Toby Jenkins: And so how long were you in the military? Kelly Kirby: Three years, one month and 21 days. Toby Jenkins: I wish you could remember the details of that. So you get out of the military, go back to school. Kelly Kirby: OK, there's a piece of this in the latter part of the going to Alaska. I had Mark, a boyfriend that I met pretty early since when I went in there and maybe a couple of weeks after. There was actually even the day that I got there, there was this guy at the gas station on base. And I was you know, I drove up there. And so I went and this gorgeous man. I just knew that he was hitting on me. And and so this first guy, my first 14 �friend, even whether or not he was gay or not, I was I was really my gaydar went like this, and I kept seeing him in the chow hall and around the base, and then he invited me to come to a, I don't remember how he encapsulated it, and what I didn't know then, until for a long time afterwards, what was going on, was a, it was a cult. It was the Way. Toby Jenkins: A religious cult? Kelly Kirby: Yes, religious cult. I went into one of some guy's room, and there was about eight or ten or twelve guys, and they had Bibles and whatever, but this guy invited me to this, and I was like, I would have done anything to get in his pants, you know, and I thought that's what he had in mind, and otherwise, it was the Way International. And so, from there, I'm 21 now, I go over some of that through my Alaska, and then, when I came back to Pittsburgh to go back to college, they had the Way, they had the chapter, and I stayed from 75 to 77. I just gradually stopped fucking guys, and, can I say that? And I started dating women. Toby Jenkins: So it was through this, this guy invited you, you had an attraction for him, but he was interested in recruiting you and proselytizing you, and so you began to buy into the Bible study and their programs and the things they were saying, had you told this group that you had been intimate with men, had you told them you were gay? Kelly Kirby: Not while I was in Alaska, but when I was in back in Pittsburgh, within the first semester, I told somebody, you know, and, you know, their thing is, if you're, if you're homosexual, you have a devil spirit, and they are making you do what you're doing, and you know, I'm, you know, why am I, why am I gay? You know, that's what, you know, that's what I have been up to that, even though through four years, I just wasn't like the Kelly Kirby that you know. I was still scared, my family…you're not going to, you'll never get a job, you'll, you know, whatever, all that stuff, and anyway, so he said, this guy that I talked to from the Way… Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you have came back to Kansas, is that right? Kelly Kirby: Right. Toby Jenkins: And you've connected to a religious group, and began to kind of discover perhaps maybe you're not going to live as a gay person. You're adopting kind of their position and I think earlier you mentioned the Way they identified it is if you act on your sexuality, if you are intimate with somebody of the same sex, it's a demon forcing you to do that, trying to control you and so the... Kelly Kirby: Right and so it's not me that's getting pleasure from this, it's the devil spirit that's in me and the devil spirit will give you some little bite of something, something that keeps you on a hook and so the only thing you can do is... I don't know exactly how the words work. I don't remember. Essentially, you get the devil spirit out of you. Toby Jenkins: Resisting. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. So, I got married. I had... 15 �Toby Jenkins: Was the person you married, were they a part of this religious group? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So you met your wife... Right. ...through this religious group? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Now, I think I asked you earlier, but I just want clarification. Had you communicated to anybody in the group that you struggle with same-sex attraction? Kelly Kirby: Well, one of the guys that I, like I already said, he was the one that had told me all of this stuff. And I don't know if I told everybody. I don't think I did. I really don't, but I might in some somebody. I don't really remember exactly. I know some guys that were same thing as me. I mean, and in fact, I had some lesbians as well, but all of them were... Toby Jenkins: Ex-gay. Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah, exactly. Toby Jenkins: So, did they dangle a carrot over you that, you know, maybe you had this issue with your father not being supportive, and you knew that society didn't support it, and that the Bible didn't support it, and God... I mean, did they dangle this carrot that there was a way that you could be normal, you could just be regular? Kelly Kirby: It wasn't the other, all of other things you said. It's just God. God will help you, and you have to be strong, and... Toby Jenkins: So, was your wife, was she from Pittsburgh? Kelly Kirby: She was, and she actually knew that I was was gay before we got married, and I'll say, and to give her some... I don't know what to say, what an adjective. She knew that I was. I was not the one to tell her. It was somebody else, and I... She knew that I was trying not to be. Let's put it that way, and I didn't have sex with a man for 13 years. I was monogamous with her. The one and one time only, I found a porno magazine that I... I don't remember how I found it, and then I was like, ah, and I was like, I was taste, taste, you know, it was like, this is like 10 years into my marriage, and I hid it, and I looked at it, and I, and it just ate me up, and I threw it away, but it's still, that thing was there, and... Toby Jenkins: Do you remember the magazine? Was it Blue Boy? Kelly Kirby: It could have been... Kelly Kirby: Playgirl? Toby Jenkins: Maybe a Playgirl magazine. Kelly Kirby: That's possible. Toby Jenkins: They had started showing full frontal nudity. 16 �Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah. If you want to know what was the turning point for me was... The head of the Way died in 1985. It came apart. A lot of the people that I knew, in fact a whole lot of people that we socialized and all that started seeing that we had been lied to and et cetera. Some of them may split off and have still that kind of... But about a year or so after he died Joyce and I pulled out of the Way and we went to go to a… Toby Jenkins: Counselor. Kelly Kirby: Thank you. A while we went for couples and the guy that was doing it once, he was on 35th and Harvard at one of those... Is it a Methodist church there? They had some kind of a bunch of... You could get counseling there for a small amount of money. And basically he said you've got a good marriage. I don't see that you really need this. And we of course had to undo a lot of the not just the gay, but just the whole thing of the Way. But... In the end the thing that I got to was after about 12, 18 months is here's what…I mean if somebody told me that this is how you get out of being gay and you'll never be and you'll be fine. And if they lied to me with that, then what about everything else? What did they do to me? I got into my own... Not with Joyce, but just me in counseling. And over a three-year period I just figured out that first of all I said instead of... I went from it's not okay for anybody to be gay to gay is okay for some people, just not for Kelly. And then I went to a different person and then that's when I just really could pull out what I was and said I'm gay. And there's nothing wrong with it. Not for anybody. There's people that are bad people, but that's not the point. I went to some support groups, SSA and things like that, and that was like, okay, that's not me, it's not, it's, I'm not a sex addict. I'm a very... Toby Jenkins: SSA is Sexual Survivors, Sexual Anonymous, Sex Anonymous. Kelly Kirby: Sex Addicts Anonymous. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: It's like AA, but it's for... Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly. Toby Jenkins: For people who feel like they have sex addictions. Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly. And I, some of my gay friends in town here, I met in a group. Toby Jenkins: And so you had come to Tulsa, you started out in Oklahoma City, came to Tulsa. Had you already started, established your CPA firm by then? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you, how many children did you have? Kelly Kirby: All of them. Toby Jenkins: Four. You had four children. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, yeah, four children. Yeah. 17 �Toby Jenkins: And you're married, in your business, and you're going to get help, professional help. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you, in a course of three years... Kelly Kirby: The reason is I had more clients here. There was one big client that I had, a client that I had had almost for 10 years or eight years. When they had five people on, they had up to now 100 employees, and they were just…was just going wild. Anyway, in terms of getting big, the owners then decided that they wanted to sell it, and I was their accountant. I was in their building, and I was doing accounting work for them two days a week. And three days a week, I have an office, and I can do taxes and whatever. So, that's kind of how I got to Tulsa. So they wanted to sell it. Three of the five that were there eight years ago…these three guys came to me and said, Charlie wants to sell, and I said, yeah, I know. And he says, well, we'd like to buy it. Do you think we could do that? And I was like, yeah, you could. There's capital here. I mean, the kids, these three men, they didn't have any more money than I did. They had kids and a house, but they probably lived week to week or whatever. But I found a way for them, and they said to me, they went out and came back and said, if you can make this work, then we'll give you 10%. So, they had each one of those three got 30%. I got 1%, or 10%. So, going on, that was 89. In 91, I'm out of the house from Joyce and whatever. Toby Jenkins: So, y'all separated or divorced? Kelly Kirby: Yeah, well, yeah. I left the house in 90, November. It took 15 months to get the divorce done. Toby Jenkins: How old were the kids? Kelly Kirby: So, when I went out, let's see, nine, eight, five and four. Toby Jenkins: Oh, Erin, this one was four. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, Erin. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Kelly Kirby: And anyway, jumped forth two years. No, it was one year. December 1st of 1991, World AIDS Day, I went down the road to 5th and Main… it was a candlelight... [service starting at] Bartlett Square. But it was sleeting and there was about 50 people there and we got candles, we had a little bit of something there and then we walked to the Episcopal Church, the Cathedral... Trinity. All I was doing there was just being there and walking a candle and I got my picture taken by the Tulsa World and I was on the next day's second page. And my three partners in this... I'm not going to say which company in town this is, okay, and I'll tell you why in a bit if you want. They saw the picture and the president, the new 18 �president there, we've been two years [since the sale], Charlie's gone and whatever, he said, see your picture in the paper. And I said, yes. And he said, okay. And then he came back, he left and he came back to my office a little while longer. This was all in one day. He said, there's a lot of talk coming in the office. There's a hundred people working there and they're talking. By the way, these three men are... well, actually, Charlie is also Southern Baptist. They all went to the same church. So, he came back to me again and he said, can I ask you a question? And I said, sure. And he said, Kelly, if you had an opportunity to make a statement for... If you had a chance to talk, to speak about this, of your cause, was what he said, your cause, would you do it? And I thought, hmm, that's an interesting thing. And I don't remember if he left and I went to him or whether I told him just right then. I don't know exactly. I don't remember exactly, but within hours, at least, I went back and I said, you know, I think I would. And I did. Oh, God. I wasn't going to let anybody push me anymore, and I'm not going to have any clients that don’t know that I'm gay, because I don't want to be that vulnerable, and I mean, I didn't say they had to be gay to be my clients. I just wanted them to not discriminate against me or make their questions, to be answered in a way that they don't want, and all right, let me think of this right. I came into, let's step forward a little bit. I, in the summer, or I think September, I guess, when the elections were, they asked me to be on the board, and… Toby Jenkins: For Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Kelly Kirby: Yes. TOHR. Toby Jenkins: Today it is known as Oklahomans for Equality. Kelly Kirby: Exactly. I went on the board as, and treasurer, because I'm an accountant, and so, 93 to 94, I did that, and then they made me president, and I was for two years from 94 to 96, and then my third, or my fourth year, I was on the board. I was back to being treasurer I went back to the Disciples of Christ, Christian Church of Disciples. That was what I was raised. I was the president of District 8 for the state of Kansas of the CYF my senior year, and that includes when I came out, and I went from there to the Way, and I came back, and it's my family. The first one I went to when I came back here was Forest Park. Mike, I can't think of his last name as a minister there. Joyce and I went there with our kids, and then when we split, I wanted Joyce and the kids to have Forest Park, and I went to see where I could go, which ended up to be First Christian downtown, and that's the time that I met Richard Ziegler, and of course, you know, his son is gay. When I had a boyfriend then, Rick, we wanted to make a civil union. So, we went to Richard Ziegler and said, would you do this for us? And he said, I've never done one, but I've been waiting for somebody to ask me. We're still close. He got kicked out. And that's a whole other thing. Toby Jenkins: So, he did, he blessed your civil union. 19 �Kelly Kirby: At Harwelden. My family, my dad and my stepmother came to that. And Nancy McDonald was helpful to getting me to get my parents to come to my civil union. That's where I came from. At that time, I picked up PFLAG. Toby Jenkins: And so, Nancy McDonald was the president of PFLAG locally, but also. Kelly Kirby: She was on the [national] board. And then, she was, she, and I think by 95, I'm going to do a timeline, but I'll try to not make it, let's give you some snippets. Anyway, so I went into office of TOHR. And 20 days later, Bill Clinton got inaugurated. And on the next day, he made an executive order that being homosexual was not a reason to get kicked out of the military. And of course, he had to back down, way back down. And, you know, people say, oh, he was just, the man took the big step. And yeah, it took another two or three, however many different presidents…Took three. Well, it was him, and then George, and then Obama. The media [called the TOHR Helpline] and somebody, whoever it was, got the message and called me. And so, I called back this reporter, and I met him in Sam's Club parking lot, and did an interview. Between then and the next 15 years, I probably did 200 interviews. I did those interviews because nobody else would do it. Now, you know, if there's a, you know, 100 things to be said, it should come from 100 people. You know, instead, I was the face. I was the face of Tulsa and Nancy. Kelly Kirby: TOHR 91 to 95. In 93, the disciples contingent that had a, they have a different name now, but tell me, tell me what it was. Toby Jenkins: Disciples of Christ, they're affirming inclusive. Kelly Kirby: Yes. I went on a national board. And I did that for four years. So that was from three to 93 to 97. In 95, Nancy asked me to come on the national PFLAG, and I was, I came on as a board member in the 95, and then in 96, she became the national president. And I was a treasurer, and I was doing that for, so for seven years. So I was on the board for PFLAG. Another of the things that I've done, I hate saying that. I feel like I'm trying my best. I did this because it needed to be done, and I wanted to do it. So, anyway, maybe that's why people ask me. I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Well, at that time, visibility was critical to our survival, as it is today. And for someone to be visible in Oklahoma, they could either lose their jobs, be disowned by their families, or kicked out of their church, and you had already traversed all of that. You were self-employed, you were in an affirming church, and your family already was aware. So you had those credentials that made you be able to be more visible. Was it during this time that you served on the ACLU board in the state of Oklahoma? Kelly Kirby: So, no, I was on PFLAG, then…Another church, it was another Disciples they did camp, they sent people into camps and summer camps for youth. And you know, that was like any kind of a cause that the church should be cognizant about and it was like that. And I was on the National Board for 8 years on that one. It wasn't just gay and whatever, it was a lot of other things. 20 �And then they sent me to the ICCR, Interfaith Center for Corporate Responsibility. And that's out of New York. I was on that national team, as a representative of the whole Disciples of Christ denomination. You know, millions of members. Toby Jenkins: Let me ask you a few questions. Kelly Kirby: Okay. Toby Jenkins: So, during this period, you had come out, you had divorced, you had your children, you had your partner, and you became kind of the person that they threw out in front when they needed a spokesperson. So, I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever have to give any public interviews on marriage equality? Were you ever interviewed for that? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for gays in the military? Kelly Kirby: Well, yes, I did. I did it in 93. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for discrimination policies? Kelly Kirby: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for LGBTQ health care issues, such as HIV, AIDS? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for faith and spirituality and sexuality issues? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So, we've just covered, what about, were you ever interviewed whenever the sodomy laws were struck down? Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So, Kelly, I'm going to ask you, and this is not a court of law, but I want you to testify faithfully. Have you, to the best of your ability, for the last 20 years… Kelly Kirby: 30 years, 35 years. Toby Jenkins: Stood up and stood step forth and advocated for LGBTQ plus individuals and with a clear conscience? Kelly Kirby: Well, I got recognized for it. And I said, you know what? Toby Jenkins: You know you did your part. Kelly Kirby: This is in 2010. 21 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Kelly Kirby: It's 15 years later now, and I said, you know, this lifetime achievement [shows Lifetime Achievement Award from Oklahomans for Equality], I said, my life is not gone. I'm going to be here, you know, and here I am. Toby Jenkins: You, earlier in the interview, acted like you were a little bit embarrassed because you felt like you were touting your achievements. But I want to? Weren't you? Were you proud to represent the LGBTQ community? Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But it came with a cost, didn't? Kelly Kirby: Well, yes. Toby Jenkins: Were you threatened? Did you lose clients? Kelly Kirby: There was on my porch ... .If you're going shooting range and they have the [target] on the house and on the car, scratched in the paint, threatening life-threatening to me. I called the police. What was the question? Toby Jenkins: Did it come with a cost being visible? Kelly Kirby: Yes. So, because I was on the board of the Human Rights Commission, I know who to talk to, and I talked to that person and he said: I can't do this, but I know who in the police department can and will. It was a kid at Edison High School. They took him out of high school and suitably told him, you don't do that and you better not do that. And here's why you need not to do that and no more, no more trouble, Toby Jenkins: In 2010, you'll kind of hold that up and face towards the camera so we can….Okay, so you receive that Lifetime Achievement Award at the Equality Gala that year. So a couple of things. I know, you have always to my…. As many years as I've known you, and that's been since 96- you've always been a pretty family man and you and your partners at the time, were very involved in your children… Kelly Kirby: You know well, Charles and I were together 17 years. His twins are three weeks older than my second born, Rachel, and when Charles and I met in 1999, he moved from Edmond to here. The kids were most well, they were junior high and high school and middle school, and we were six kids and two gay dads and we were this, the Brady Bunch minus Alice. So, yes, Toby Jenkins: And I remember your partner, Charles Johnson, may his memory be blessed- I know that he also did some interviews for us in the media over issues over books being banned in our libraries when legislators are trying to ban those, an interview on kids being bullied in school because of their sexual orientation. Because he was an open out schoolteacher for Union Public Schools- was it Union? Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah, 22 �Toby Jenkins: And was famous for every year he would take how many students to see the opera, the grade school kids? Kelly Kirby: Every kid in his school of the fifth grade. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, did that every year for years. Kelly Kirby: Yes, sadly he died for something that was probably there when he was born, but it just didn't anyway, at 58 he died, and so that's been nine years. Toby Jenkins: And you have a husband now. Kelly Kirby: Yes, Rod Benham. Yeah, so I've had three marriages and only one was a divorce. A divorce, a death, and a man who loves me now still, Toby Jenkins: And your children kind of following your footsteps, their advocates for equality. Kelly Kirby: Yes Toby Jenkins: If you were, let's say, you know you had a tombstone and you had to write something on it that you want to say about your life. Do you have a motto that you'd like to put on a tombstone, or do you have an epitaph? You know, some people have things like that. Is there something like that? As you, you know, think about life, careers, serving others, serving our country, defending our country, raising your children and all the things that you've done. Kelly Kirby: It's already on the tombstone in that cemetery down on 91st Street and it's got Charles and my name is there, with no date and…but yes, it was like you can just there's a, there's a row of those things in some succinct but yeah, Toby Jenkins: Anything else you want to make sure we have as a part of this history archive. Kelly Kirby: Another alliance, the Tulsa Metropolitan Ministry. I was on that board for four years. But you ask about the ACLU. That was in the latter part of the like, maybe 2007 to 2011 or something like that. I don't know, that's not something in that neighborhood. Toby Jenkins: So, in closing, I just want to tell you one of my favorite memories. You were the gay convertible, and by that I mean you were one of the guys who I knew had a convertible and if I needed somebody to ride in the Oklahoma City parade or the Tulsa parade I would call you, and many times you were the escort driver for whatever Grand Marshal or whatever bride, king or queen we had, and in Oklahoma City parade and Tulsa parade. Kelly Kirby: And one time, even just on two hours notice, it was somebody else that whatever happened to them, you know, I don't know, it was probably something that was on and I'm just like, okay, I'll be there. What time do you need me? Toby Jenkins: Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you spending this time with us all right. 23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Kelly Kirby Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kelly Kirby, Toby Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource Kelly Kirby Oral History Project Interview from April 9, 2025 Description An account of the resource This conversation with Kelly Kirby explores his life journey, from his early awareness of his sexual orientation to his military service and subsequent advocacy for LGBTQ rights. Kelly shares personal stories about his family, relationships, and the challenges he faced as an openly gay man in Oklahoma. His commitment to equality and inclusion is evident through his involvement in various organizations and his reflections on the importance of authenticity in one's life. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins on April 9, 2025, transcript edited by Dennis Neill on February 17, 2026. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 9, 2025; February 17, 2026 2025 advocacy AIDS AIDS/HIV coming out community Dennis Neill equality Gay Bars Gay Rights HIV/AIDs interview Kelly Kirby LGBT history military military inclusion OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project representation sexual orientation discrimination Toby Jenkins video Visibility World AIDS day https://history.okeq.org/files/original/d9c8a6149f14a01008d49c6d3f611a9e.pdf b4ccfe0cef6ae75fb4be9ca4125dc32d PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins (and Dennis Neill) Date: March 19, 2026 Edited By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio AI, March 21th, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Summary This interview with Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak explores their 36-year relationship, their careers in theater, music, and education, and their activism within the LGBTQ community in Tulsa. They share personal stories, insights on community involvement, and their vision for a more inclusive future. Keywords LGBTQ, Tulsa, theater, activism, community, aging in place, Rainbow Room, cohousing, Pride, advocacy Key Topics  Personal stories of Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak  Their careers in theater, music, and education  Involvement in LGBTQ advocacy and community building  The vision for the Rainbow Room and co-housing in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the Oklahoma LGBTQ History Archives 02:59 Love Story: Pat and John's Journey Together 05:49 Childhood and Early Influences 08:57 Navigating Identity and Sexual Orientation 12:00 The Impact of AIDS on Personal Lives 14:58 Career Paths and Community Involvement 17:49 Theater and Music: A Shared Passion 2 �20:53 Family Dynamics and Acceptance 23:58 Reflections on Life and Legacy 39:31 Theater Memories and Personal Triumphs 42:08 Integrity in Arts Organizations 43:27 Reflections on the Catholic Church and Leadership 45:22 The Journey of Finale's Restaurant 52:40 Y2K and the Impact on Business 54:50 Gardening and Community Living 56:28 The Vision Behind Heartwood Commons 01:01:32 The Role of the Rainbow Room in Tulsa 01:09:42 Theater Community Health and Future 01:14:38 Being a Face of the LGBTQ+ Community 01:18:39 Messages for Future Generations John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Oral History Interview March 19, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today is March 19th, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library interviewing today two wonderful people for our Oklahoma LGBTQ History Archives. Present in the room is Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality. Amanda Thompson, our archivist, and Toby Jenkins. Could you tell us your names? Pat Hobbs: I'm Pat Hobbs. John Orsulak: I'm John Orsulak. Toby Jenkins: And just to kick this off, how long have you been together? Pat and John: 36 years. Toby Jenkins: Now, we're interviewing this couple together and then we're going to find out a little bit about their lives. But I think for our purposes today, I'd like to start out with this question, because I know Oprah would ask. How did y'all meet? Pat Hobbs: Oh, Lord. In church. John Orsulak: Well, church rectory. At the time, I was a church music director at a small Catholic church in Bay City, Michigan, birthplace of Madonna. And the staff was invited over to the rectory for Thanksgiving. And the pastor I worked for was gay. Not that that makes any difference. But anyway, he had the staff over. Pat was visiting a mutual friend of ours who happened to be living there at the time. And Pat 3 �came into the kitchen and we started talking about theater. My ex at the time also showed up at the time, and he'd had a few. But we just hit it off and then... go ahead. Pat Hobbs: Well, we hit it off and he invited me to breakfast on Monday before I left town. And we started a long-distance conversation for about a month. And we met for the next time in Chicago for New Year's Eve. And I spent New Year's in Chicago. John Orsulak: I came down for Valentine's. Pat Hobbs: He came down in February to meet Tulsa. It was his Tulsa debut at Jerry Jackson's and Jeff Feist House for a big party. And then it just evolved. John Orsulak: You came in April. Pat Hobbs: I came in April, went back up there. And it was just kind of a decision. Who's got the better job? He was in music and he can do that anywhere. And I had a really good job here at the time. So we just decided to move here. And John moved down July 4th weekend. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Pat Hobbs: That was 1990. John Orsulak: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: All right. Well, let's find out how you two people became smitten with each other. What led to that moment? Pat, tell us about your childhood and your family. Pat Hobbs: Well, I'm the second of four boys growing up in Southeast Texas. My dad was a lieutenant colonel in the Marines. So we were his four Marine Corps boys. My baby brother was gay. He was five years younger than me. But we didn't realize that until 1990. So I grew up in Beaumont, Texas and spent time at the farm up in Newton County. And just considered myself kind of a country boy at some point. Toby Jenkins: So where did you go to high school? Pat Hobbs: Went to high school in Beaumont, Texas. Toby Jenkins: Beaumont, Texas. And what year did you graduate? Pat Hobbs: 1970. Toby Jenkins: So it's 1970. What was the world like in 1970, your world? Pat Hobbs: Oh, it was hippie time and it was protest time. Protesting the Vietnam War. Nixon was president. A lot of politics going on. But the draft was going on too. And sending kids overseas to fight in a war that we didn't, many of us didn't believe in. Luckily, I had a very high draft number and I didn't go. Toby Jenkins: So you never did get called up? Pat Hobbs: Never got called up. Toby Jenkins: What were your interests in school? 4 �Pat Hobbs: All my interests in high school were band and theater. And when I was in high school, I went with a friend to help him audition. They convinced me to audition and I got the lead. And it was the first thing I'd ever done. So it was one of those real quick things that, oh, this is fun. Toby Jenkins And what was the production? Pat Hobbs: It was a play called See How They Run. Toby Jenkins: Okay, it wasn't a musical. Pat Hobbs: No, we didn't do musicals in high school because the drama department did not speak to the choir department. They were at the same period, so we never did a musical. But I always loved them. Toby Jenkins: So that piqued your interest in performance. Were you in the band? Pat Hobbs: I was in the band, marching band. I played tuba. Toby Jenkins: Tuba. Pat Hobbs: I played tuba in the marching band. Toby Jenkins: And it probably was bigger than you were. Pat Hobbs: It was bigger than me, but you know, I placed first my junior and senior year. I placed first in competition. Toby Jenkins: In tuba. In Texas. Pat Hobbs: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, of course you did. You've always been an overachiever. Pat Hobbs: And then I actually won a state award my senior year. I was the first from our high school since 1952 to win a state UIL, University Interscholastic League award for boys' prose reading. And my winning selection was James Thurber's Unicorn in the Garden. Toby Jenkins: Wow, How appropriate. Okay. So this was 1970. Do you happen to remember how many were in your graduating class from Beaumont? Pat Hobbs: 289. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so it was a mid-sized Texas town. Did you go to college after that? Technical school? Pat Hobbs: I went to SMU the following fall and spent four years at. Toby Jenkins: And SMU is? Pat Hobbs: Southern Methodist University. I was a theater major my first year. And it was just a weird time for me because I thought there were a bunch of weirdos in the theater department. I wasn't out, but there were just a lot of weirdos. I mean, gay people. You know, what I thought were gay people. And I ended up transferring over to the business school and got a degree in accounting and finance but kept my love 5 �for theater and performing. And I would do all-school talent shows when it didn't involve the theater. Toby Jenkins: At SMU? Pat Hobbs: Uh-huh, when it didn't involve the theater department, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you, by then, you're a college student. Did you, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? Pat Hobbs: At college? Toby Jenkins: Well, now. Pat Hobbs: Oh, now I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about at college? Pat Hobbs: I was straight, struggling. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but you had that sexual attraction to persons of the same sex. Pat Hobbs: I did, but, you know, it took a long time to get to the point, to actual coming out. Toby Jenkins: So you got a accounting degree from SMU. Pat Hobbs: I did. Toby Jenkins: And what happened after that? Pat Hobbs: You know, I had a job there in Dallas, and then I was dating a young woman, and she had a family business here in Tulsa. Their accountant retired, so they asked me if I would come to work for them here in Tulsa, so that's how I got to Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: And what year was that? Pat Hobbs: I worked for them, that was in 76, and worked for them until 1987. Toby Jenkins: Now, were you married? Pat Hobbs: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And how long were you married? Pat Hobbs: 11 years. Toby Jenkins: 11 years. Any children? Pat Hobbs: No children. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And during that 11 years, were there any kind of struggles over that? Did you have a sense of insecurity in your sexuality, or were you comfortable in that relationship? 6 �Pat Hobbs: I was very comfortable in it until the last couple of years, and there was this desire to see what's out there, you know? Toby Jenkins: Okay. John, tell us about your childhood. John Orsulak: Oh, gosh. Born in 1954. I'm the youngest of six. I have three brothers, two sisters, and also a stepsister, which was later, after I was an adult. Used to be, I think, current count on nieces and nephews is 13, though I do have some grand, or great, whatever it is, nieces and nephews now, and I think I'm even now getting to the great, great stage, which is weird. Lived in Danville, Illinois, hometown of Dick Van Dyke, Donald O'Connor, Gene Hackman, Bobby Short, and myself. It's mid-size at the time, blue-collar, Hyster, a lot of GM plants and things, they're all shuttered now and the town is kind of drying up sort of. I graduated in 72 from Danville High School, was involved in choir, got involved in junior high and then that transferred into high school. My high school choral teacher, Helen Wolfe, was instrumental in getting me into the drama department or a drama club and I don't, I'm trying to think, I was more behind the scenes than on stage at the time and ended up for some weird quirk the president of the club my senior year. While I was in choir, the music department held their very first two musicals while I was there. My junior year it was Brigadoon. I have a picture that was in the yearbook of me within my kilt with a hand up and it looks very gay, as far as the skirt a little hiked up on the leg. And then the second, the senior year was Little Abner and I was just, I think I was the milkman. But that was really the last theater I did for many years. I went to Danville Junior College to, now it's Community College, and got my degree there. That was the era of Streakers, had my first experience with people streaking down the quad, that was interesting. And then went, transferred to Illinois State University and got my degree in elementary ed. Toby Jenkins: And where was that? John Orsulak: Normal, Illinois. Bloomington Normal, where State Farm is located, their headquarters. Didn't do any theater, got very active with the Newman Club there, was involved in all kind of things. Toby Jenkins: So you were Roman Catholic. John Orsulak: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: Did you, you talked about theater, when did you become a musician? When did you become... John Orsulak: Oh gosh, I did that back as a kid. My grade school that I went to, St. Joseph's, which is no longer in existence, long time. They had a small pipe organ they needed somebody to play. I was, had taken piano and just kind of self-taught myself and would play for services. And then that just kind of evolved over time. I really didn't do anything that I recall in college. When I got out, I had my degree, I worked for the Catholic school. Our parish merged with another one, because that was the time small parishes had to do that. And so I taught at what was then, used to 7 �be St. Patrick's, now is Holy Family. I don't even think it's in existence now. Catholic school was seventh and eighth grade, language arts to start with, was doing no theater at all. Still would do the church music. For me as a kid, it was an escape at recess to go over and practice, just so I didn't have to deal with sports and bullying or anything else on the playground. But a friend of mine who had got her degree in theater at Illinois State, talked me into auditioning for a production, local theater production of Annie Get Your Gun. And so did that, chorus, and then from that point on, I basically got hooked, because the next show I got a featured role, Mr. Snow in Brigadoon, not Brigadoon, [ Pat added Carousel] yeah, that one. Thank you. And then just kind of off and on things there, I decided to get out of education, because I was drawn more toward church music, and went back to the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana to get my undergrad work in music. Had to audition for voice, so I had to take voice as part of it. And when I walked into the audition studio, here is William Warfield. Old Man River himself, sitting there, and I'm singing, you know, I'm in my probably mid-20s by then, and it was, you know, I don't recall anything. It was just kind of a blur. It was just seeing him but did that and then continued working and doing church work, moved to a small parish in Decatur, Illinois, if you know where that is. Was there a year, got fired, didn't work. I was a little too progressive for them because at the Newman Center, it was a very progressive Newman Center, and I mean the priests didn't wear a collar, the the woman who was religious, you know, didn't wear a habit. It was very laid-back, very contemporary. Toby Jenkins: Lots of folk music. John Orsulak: Yes, sang a lot of Godspell, things like that. But I did that and then went back from there, came back to my home parish in Danville, worked there for a while, and then went to Bloomington, which was the sister city of where I went to college, Bloomington Normal. Worked at the church there for a year. It didn't work out, though I did get a chance to participate in the renovation of the church, which was, that was a big deal. It was an old Art Deco style, but then they really stripped a lot out and got it. I don't know what it looks like now. Toby Jenkins: So was your career, just like Pat’s was accounting, was your career in church music? John Orsulak: I thought it was going to be. I did it for, I taught for five years and then went into church music full-time and then when I moved here, that's what I thought I was going to do and continue. And at the time there was only, I think, one parish that had any kind of an opening and just didn't feel, just moving here and experiencing their version of Catholic liturgy, they were so far behind. About ten, I was spoiled with a very progressive bishop and again, he was one that you taught, you called him Ken, you didn't call him Bishop, and it was just very laid-back. During that time when I was in Michigan, it's when I had my first relationship with a man and just kind of then met him [Pat] and the rest was history. Toby Jenkins: So during that time how did you identify and what is your sexual orientation? 8 �John Orsulak: Now I'm definitely gay. Back then it was, I think I'm straight. It didn't really feel right. It was, you know, there was a little experimentation here and there and I had one person at a rehearsal, no, it was a cast party after a show, who pursued me home and I was scared to death. I mean, I went to the garage, turned off the lights, got in the house as quickly as I could, turned off the lights and, you know, now I converse with him occasionally through Facebook and that's, you know, and there's no issue with that at all, but yeah, it was church music for a long time when I moved here and there wasn't anything available. I just went back to what I knew, which was education. So I got back to doing subbing in different school districts. I became popular, so to speak, in Jenks because they got to know me well. They liked me and I was offered a position to open the southeast campus when it first opened and from that point on I worked for Jenks over 20 years, fifth grade mainly. Toby Jenkins: Did Jenks school, did they know you were gay? John Orsulak: I wasn't out, but people knew. They knew and parents figured it out. I think a lot of parents did. The biggest controversy, occasionally he would be with me and I just would sidestep it, but... Pat Hobbs: May I interject here? John Orsulak: Go ahead. Pat Hobbs: So if any of you know about the Malcolm Baldrige Award, it's a highly prestigious award given by the Department of Transportation, no, Department of Commerce. Three or four companies a year win this award. Jenks schools won it. Mesa Products won it three times, twice when I was with them, so we called ourselves the Baldrige Boys. Well, when they made the presentation at the Hyatt, or the Marriott, it's now the Marriott down there, they had a nice little presentation thing at 7 o'clock one night, and I was late getting there, John was sitting at a big table of eight with his principal, and they left the chair open for me to come in next to the principal, and I came in and I sat down, and the principal did this, he actually moved his chair two feet away when I sat next to him. John Orsulak Yeah, that was uncomfortable, to say the least. Pat Hobbs: It was very uncomfortable. Toby Jenkins: And that was what year? John Orsulak: That was, oh gosh, that was... Toward the end. 2 Pat Hobbs: 2011, 20... I was at Mesa seven years, 2010, 2011. Toby Jenkins: So towards the end of your career in teaching at Jenks, did you see the culture change where administration and maybe other teachers were more supportive? John Orsulak: It was never an issue. People met Pat, they were comfortable with him. My co-workers, we never discussed it, but they were fine with him, they had no issues. About the only thing that really was controversial with me was for my 40th, I 9 �decided to pierce my ear. I had just done a production of Annie here locally, had done the whole bald head thing, and I was growing it back. And so I had just a poster, a hoop in. Well, there were parents that were just aghast, and they tried to get me to either, I don't know if they were trying to get rid of the earring or get rid of me, and one of the assistant superintendents, who I knew well and they knew me well, supported me and told them no. And from that point on, it was not... Pat Hobbs: But you even had the support of the superintendent, Kirby Lehman, back then. You know how they do prom pictures in Woodward Park? Every Friday and Saturday night during the spring, you can't find a place to park because all the kids are taking prom pictures. Well, living across the street from the park, our driveway was a turnaround, and we saw Dr. Lehman down the street. He became a really good friend of ours through some work with Theater Tulsa, and he came over and had a glass of wine with us. You know, it was our home, you know, come in while you're getting your pictures made, you know. John Orsulak: What do you do? Do you invite him in? Pat Hobbs: Yeah, invite him in and have a glass of wine. John Orsulak: And that was the year, had a young man drive up in a vintage Mustang with his girlfriend for pictures. And we're out there with a cocktail in hand, gawking at how people are dressed, like we normally did. And this kid looks over to me and says, hi, Mr. O, and he told me his name, and I immediately knew it was a former student of mine, but it was not, it was no big deal. And here are the two of us, I was like, okay, he's figured that out. But, yeah, it's... Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so your house faced Woodward Park. What was the street there? John and Pat: Rockford. Toby Jenkins: Rockford. So, well, you talked a little bit about your career and how you ended up in Tulsa. Did you want to talk any more about what your other interests, like how you got into the theater community here, or, I know you had that day job as an accountant. Pat Hobbs: Oh, yeah, but that was just a day job, you know, it paid the bills. Since 19... I had moved here in 76 and auditioned for a show in 77 for Theater Tulsa and did shows for them ever since. Did shows for all the theater companies here in town just about once, two, three, four times a year, you know, kept it up. Toby Jenkins: I know that you developed a character who became kind of wellknown, kind of a comedian musical character, you want to tell us about that? Pat Hobbs: Danny Day? Danny Day is almost a, oh, I don't know what to call it now…autobiographical story. He started in theater when he was five, playing Tiny Tim. And he was 55, the last time he was on stage he was 55, 60 years old. And he had done all the shows. He had done all the musicals in town. Sometimes two or three times. Sometimes this part. Sometimes he had a lead. Sometimes he had a supporting role. But he knew all the gossip. He knew all the scoop about what was 10 �going on in town. And he knew where the bodies were buried. He knew who slept with whom, and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it was a little character I made up. But it was very autobiographical at the same time. Toby Jenkins: It was very popular. You did it several times. Pat Hobbs: I did, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you came to Tulsa, what year was it? Pat Hobbs: 76. Toby Jenkins: And I know you were married, and then you divorced. You were in Tulsa, this was, let's talk about before, and then John would have been still in Illinois, correct, during that period. You're men who are figuring yourselves out. Tell me about the first time you heard about AIDS. John Orsulak: Oh gosh. Pat Hobbs: Probably on TV. Probably? John Orsulak: Yeah, I really can't think of a date or a year either. Pat Hobbs: Early to mid 80s. 83, 84, 85. Toby Jenkins: Did you see the impact of that on maybe people that associated with the churches you were working for? Did you see an impact on friends, family? John Orsulak: I didn't really until I moved here. And got involved with the center. Pat Hobbs: And the Names Project. John Orsulak: Yeah, and then Billy. Pat Hobbs: And then my brother. Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us about that. Pat Hobbs: Billy's five years younger than me. He was born in 1957. And it's a really lovely story, but he came out to me and John. We were all in New York one weekend for New Year's, and he came out to us at the dinner table one night, and we had no idea. I mean, just absolutely no idea. And we had this wonderful relationship for about three or four years. We'd go down to Houston where he lived. He'd come up here to Tulsa. We just had a really grand old gay time. He even had a parking place at J.R.'s, a private parking place at J.R.'s in Houston. He was so popular. But it was right after mother died, and we were, in fact, it was the day after, the afternoon after her funeral, and the four of us boys were sitting on the front porch. You know, it was, the will was cut and dried. We all knew what was gonna go on. And we were talking about the farm, what we were gonna do with the farm. And we're sitting there in our rocking chairs, just rocking back and forth like this. And he stands up and had a cigarette going, and he threw the cigarette out in the yard, and he said, it doesn't make any goddamn difference to me. I'm dying of the 11 �fucking AIDS. And he got up and he walked off in the woods. And about a month later, I got a call from a friend of his in Houston. And he said, I think you need to come down one weekend. You know, come down, see what's going on. So from that point on, John and I, we either drove down or we flew down every other weekend for a year to make sure he had food in the house, care in the house, a clean house, do all the things that we could do from a distance. John Orsulak: And it was right before the cocktail. Pat Hobbs: And it was right before, right before. Toby Jenkins: So it was 1995. Explain the cocktail. Pat Hobbs: 1995. John Orsulak: Gosh, originally it was just ATZ. Then other drugs, combinations came about that helped prolong life. And for Billy, it was just, he was too far gone. Pat Hobbs: Six months, six months. John Orsulak: Luckily he had good hospice care toward the end. Pat Hobbs: We had, yeah, very good hospice care. Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? Pat Hobbs: 95. Toby Jenkins: And he would have been how old, Pat? Pat Hobbs: 37. Toby Jenkins: 37, yeah. Dennis Neill: Pat, how did your other brothers deal with it? Pat Hobbs: I'm just gonna say that my other brother between the two of us, what do we tell people he died off. That's as much as I'm going to say. But we found a hospice in Houston, Omega House, and it was just like, similar to St. Joseph's here in Tulsa, where the designers had taken a room and designed a room. And it was small, it was there in the Montrose area of Houston. And that's where he spent the last six or eight weeks of his life. And if you recall the pictures you saw on television of people in their last stages, the wasting syndrome, the weight loss, that's what Billy was. His wasn't a, I'm not going to say it wasn't a dignified death. Physically it was not a dignified death. What we did going down there was make sure that he died a dignified death by having food and help and making sure his will was properly prepared before he died. But his was one of the worst, wasting, devastating deaths. John Orsulak: But your nieces were very supportive. Pat Hobbs: They were very supportive. And they were very young, too. Toby Jenkins: Now, you told us that your brother, you and John, had already been together. Had you come out to your family as gay? 12 �Pat Hobbs: You know, I... John Orsulak: First time I met the family was at his father's funeral. Pat Hobbs: At my father's funeral. And, you know, John drove down to Texas and we buried Daddy. And from then on, it was, he was fixing mommy drinks at five o'clock every afternoon. I didn't have to say anything. You know, it was just... Toby Jenkins: So his mother met you. John Orsulak: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Pat Hobbs: And mother's uncle was gay. He had two long-term relationships, Uncle Fred, that we grew up with. So it wasn't a surprise to her. You know, she never said anything. I never said, hey, mom. You know, but he was always there at the house. John Orsulak: Tell the story of when I was moving. When we stopped in Danville. Pat Hobbs: Oh, oh, yeah. This is his dad. So we were moving down from Michigan. And we had a U-Haul van filled with his stuff and had the car towed behind. And we stopped at his folks' house in Danville to spend the night. And it was a tiny little house, and a tiny little bedroom that we were in with a tiny little almost twin bed that we shared. And we got up the next morning and had breakfast and getting ready to move on. And his dad takes me aside. His dad says, take care of my son. John Orsulak: No more words. Pat Hobbs: Take care of my son. John Orsulak: Yeah, it was never discussed. It was just a given. Yeah. Pat Hobbs: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Still welcomed by your family. John and Pat: Oh, very much. John Orsulak: When I come home, where's Pat? Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, you're fortunate. I think you know that. But you're fortunate that you found each other. And you're fortunate that your families maintain the relationship. Tell us a little bit about some of your, I mean, you both had careers. But tell us a little bit about some of the things that you began to get involved in here in Tulsa. All of the organizations and the things that were passionate to you and the projects. Pat Hobbs: Oh, geez. How can you, you know, over the years, how many boards did I serve on? Including this one, twice. You know, of course, the arts have always been a passion of mine. And I've served on the AHHA board. I was on staff at Mayfest for a while. The Tulsa Garden Center. Anything creative and artistic, I was either on the board or on staff at some point, volunteer staff. And then got involved here at OkEq back in 2001 or 2002, when Brent Ortolani was president. And the previous president was Michelle. Help me out. She's in Kansas now. [Michelle Hoffman.] 13 �Anyway, because of my accounting background, they asked me if I would be treasurer. And this was when the center was located at 21st and Memorial. And I would go down and do the books on Sunday mornings while you'd go to church. I'd go down and do the books at this office we had down there that had no heat. I would bundle up in my coat to go down there. We didn't even have, we had, it wasn't even QuickBooks or Quicken, and it was some very, very elementary software program that we had. And it took maybe a couple hours to go in and write checks. And I think our total budget at the time was maybe $19,000. It was just, yeah, very grassroots at the time, if you will. And the smell from the bar next door, from being open on a Saturday night, I'd come home and have to hang my clothes outside on a Sunday afternoon just to get rid of the smoke that was in the office in the afternoon. But yeah, I served as treasurer for a couple of years until some health issues took over. And I had to relinquish those to Dwight [Kealiher]. And Dwight took over until the organization kept growing and growing and growing. We had $21,000 in the bank. This is one of my reports. 2021. Oh, wow. Just when the Pyramid Project was in its infancy. Toby Jenkins: So John, he said, so were you still playing, doing music for a congregation here at the time? John Orsulak: Not at first. I did do a little bit with one congregation. It didn't last long. Pat Hobbs: You did St. John's for a while. John Orsulak: Right. I was there at Jerome's, but it didn't last terribly long. Toby Jenkins: I think there were some, I don't remember what the reason was, but it just didn't work. Pat Hobbs: Political issues. John Orsulak: Yeah. Yeah. Probably more interpersonal things. But no, I really got back into education. And then because I moved here and we already had the love of theater between us, within a month, I was cast in a show. It wasn't a musical, but started my career with Theater Tulsa and then just kind of branched out into musicals. Toby Jenkins: So when he says he was working on the books and you were at church, are you still active in that? John Orsulak: No. No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Orsulak: I haven't been for a long time. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill: Excuse me. John, what was your favorite acting role that you've... 14 �John Orsulak: Oh my gosh. That's a tough one. Probably the one that I'm proudest of, it was probably the hardest role I had to do was Juan Peron in Evita. Not only did I have to dye my hair, because it's very gray, the best they could do was a dark brown, but musically it was some of the toughest stuff I ever had to learn. And I'd have to drill and drill and drill because it was very atonal, but it was this critical speech I do on a balcony and just getting through that was a triumph for me because it was a challenge. Otherwise, things came fairly easy, so it was nice to get a challenge that would push you a little bit more. Now, we've kind of aged out. Roles are few and far between. Dennis Neill: So with that Evita role, that was not that long ago, right? John Orsulak: What would you say? 10, 15? Pat Hobbs: It was probably 10 years ago. Dennis Neill: Oh, it was that long ago? Pat Hobbs: Yeah. John Orsulak: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And then Pat, how about you? Your favorite role and then also your favorite board position? All the non-profits you've served on. Pat Hobbs: Oh, my favorite role by far is Zaza, the Drag Queen in La Cage. Dennis Neill: And you did that as Tulsa... Pat Hobbs: Tulsa Project Theater, and it was an equity show, I got equity points. I'm equity eligible for that show. Dennis Neill: And how much did you get paid? Pat Hobbs: Oh, it was a hundred dollars. But the story I like to tell about that is that the end of Act I is when Albin is out there, or Zaza is in her full sequins and feathers and everything, dismisses the entire cast and sings the gay anthem, I Am What I Am, and it closes Act I. And I had the privilege of singing with an 18-piece Tulsa Symphony Orchestra in that show. It's Jerry Herman. It's horns. It's a beautiful orchestration. But here I am on stage by myself for the last five minutes singing this wonderful, wonderful song. And I realized on, it was dress rehearsal, when you're just totally in that role and you're totally singing, and you finish that last number, and you rip that wig off, and the curtain comes down, and there's nobody around you. You've just done the performance of your life, and there is, the cast has gone upstairs to change clothes for Act II. The only person on your left over here is the stage manager who calls curtain. There's nobody else on stage, nobody to catch it. And it's like, so after that happened on dress rehearsal, I asked my co-star Chris, who was my husband in the show, I said, would you please stand offstage on stage right and just hold me when I come off? Because you just exposed every nerve and every emotion in your body singing this wonderful gay anthem. And I just needed 15 �somebody to hold me, you know? So from there on, for every performance, Chris was there to catch me. But I love that. That was my... Dennis Neill: I loved the show. Pat Hobbs: I would love to do that again, too. Favorite board position. Oh, geez. You know, Dennis, my integrity, my professional accounting integrity, has gotten the best of me sometimes, being a board member. And specifically with a couple of arts organizations here in town who were doing the wrong thing and blowing through Harwelden money like they were going to get it next year, you know, get the same amount next year. And they kept blowing through it and they didn't have their policies and procedures in place. I'm not going to say I have the best organization I stayed on, okay, that I served on. But there were some fun moments for all of them. But all of my integrity got to me on a couple of them, really, and just had to walk away. Toby Jenkins: I wanted to ask this. We were... I was going to ask you about... You had worked for these churches and apparently still were connected, so you're no longer involved with the Catholic Church. As a former Catholic, I guess is the way I'd... What do you think about our present Pope? John Orsulak: Hopeful. The previous Pope, I liked him a lot, just he was on the right track. I don't know. I don't still... I'm waiting to see how he deals with people who are gay. The number of people who work for the church who are gay is... I think if people realized that, they'd be astounded. I worked for two gay pastors, very obviously, an assistant. And it's like, okay. Here locally, you just kind of wonder. I see a lot of cassocks and old school looks, and it's like, okay, what are you hiding from? Just not of interest to me anymore. I don't want to play the game. Toby Jenkins: It's still pretty profound though, that the world's number one religious leader for all of Christianity, whether they acknowledge him as their spiritual head, it's pretty significant that the last three or four years we've had a Pope who called us to treat people with dignity regardless of their journey. John Orsulak: John, the current one, he's from Illinois, my home state, and he's a Cubs fan, so you can't beat that. Good combination. Toby Jenkins: He's pretty critical of the United States' present positions on multiple issues, calls us out. Pat and John: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just was curious about that. Now, let me ask you about this. Tell us about Finales. Pat Hobbs: Lord, really? John Orsulak: I need a drink. Pat Hobbs: That was the most expensive MBA anyone has ever gone through. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Pat Hobbs: I think we were kind of like Joseph in The Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat in that we were years ahead of our time, just ahead of our time. We 16 �found a space down here on First Street, and it was my dream to have a restaurant with entertainment, like Lucy and Desi, come down to the club. So we remodeled the first floor of the Jacobs Building down here on First Street and hired James Schrader as our chef, who ended up doing a dang good job of it. We hired people like you. We didn't know what we were doing, but we had fun at it at the same time. We had cast parties for opening night for several of the touring companies that would come in. The opening night cast party for Chicago was our biggest night that we ever had. My God, it was a fabulous evening. Beauty and the Beast, we had their cast party. And for all the local companies here in Tulsa, we have opening night cast parties, a place for people to go. Now they go to Kilkenny's or they go to McNeely's after a show. Toby Jenkins: So your vision was a restaurant with entertainment. Pat Hobbs: With entertainment, and it was before and after the theater. It was within walking distance. It was 476 steps from the Performing Arts Center. So if you're going to the Symphony or the Ballet, come have a nice dinner at 6, walk over to the PAC, come back and have coffee and dessert. Toby Jenkins: And so in those days, downtown was pretty deserted. Pat Hobbs: Oh, downtown. Toby Jenkins: You were it. Pat Hobbs: I think the May Rooms were still open. Toby Jenkins: And then across the railroad tracks was the Spaghetti Warehouse, but that was it. Pat Hobbs: That was it. Toby Jenkins: There were no other restaurants. Pat Hobbs: There was no Art District. Toby Jenkins: No other restaurants. Dennis Neill: And what's the time period? Pat Hobbs: This was 1998. 1998 to 2000. Toby Jenkins: And for our viewers, I was out and I needed a part-time job, and Pat and John, his partner, and his other folks who were there with him, took me under their arm and they taught me how to do fine dining. I didn't know how to, I never drank wine. They had to teach me how to serve it. But it was elegant. Tulsa's power people loved it. Tulsa's people who desired fine dining and entertainment supported it. Pat Hobbs: And we had a 1921 Steinway in the center of the restaurant. John Orsulak: You bought sight unseen. 17 �Pat Hobbs: I bought sight unseen out of California on the internet before they had pictures. John said, this is a drug deal going bad. And they delivered it to our house and I went, oh my God. Toby Jenkins: It was elegant. Pat Hobbs: It was, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But there was nothing in downtown Tulsa. Pat Hobbs: No, there was nothing. Toby Jenkins: Nobody lived in downtown Tulsa. There were no other restaurants. You were definitely pioneers of the revitalization and the restoration of our urban core, which we all take for granted. And younger people today just assume that it's always been like this. Because there was a period when downtown Tulsa was the place to be. And then everything left downtown Tulsa. And you and your colleagues were trying to, you could see it before others couldn't. Pat Hobbs: Well, thank you. Yeah, we just wanted to, the desire was to build it near the Performing Arts, find a place near the Performing Arts Center. And we looked two or three places before then. And the story goes, the name at the time was Finale's Cabaret and Restaurant. That is how we initially, and the word cabaret in Oklahoma in the 1990s did not mean the type of cabaret entertainment you see in New York City. That is musical theater, that's piano, piano bar, cabaret means strip clubs. So we found this place over here on Cincinnati and 2nd, right behind what was then Oklahoma Tire and Supply. It's now the Chinese place. And it was a twostory run-down building and we were gonna buy the building and renovate it. And then the word got over to the Williams Companies that cabaret, that a strip club was gonna open up across the street from the Williams Company's tower. And they came in and bought it out from under us and tore the building down because they didn't want a strip club because cabaret meant strip club. So we hunted for a couple of other places and found this one over on 1st Street, which wasToby Jenkins: And that was an old historical hotel. Pat Hobbs: That was an old historical hotel that was built in 21. Dennis Neill: And who was the landlord? Pat Hobbs: You know, the landlord, the legal landlord that owned the building or the one that... The legal landlord was a guy by the name of Ferretti and he lived in Oklahoma City. And he was this little short Italian guy who drove a big fancy Mercedes. I think he was mob related. But he owned the building and then Mike Sager got involved in it. And Michael Sager was the mouthpiece. And after we vacated the building, Sager had his name put at the top of the building, the Sager, but it's since gone. It's now Jacob, since Jacob's building again. But yeah, Michael Sager was the mouthpiece for Mr. Ferretti. Toby Jenkins: So this was going, and for our viewers, I was a waiter. And that is where I met Mary and Sharon Bishop Baldwin. They were there celebrating their anniversary. I was their waiter. I mean, it was a very, very elegant, impressive place 18 �to be. But I want to bring us to the place of closing night was what was going on in the world, closing night. Pat Hobbs: It was Y2K. You know, we had had, like I said, the night of Chicago was our biggest night. We had a private party in between the dinner hour and the cast party, and it was a big, and something happened in 1999, and the world was predicted to go dark because of the changeover, Y2K, 2000. Everything was gonna go, you're gonna lose your power. Nobody wanted to make New Year's Eve reservations. The year before, we had two turns. We turned that restaurant twice on New Year's Eve. This New Year's Eve, I think we may have had 80 reservations, and that was it. So we ended up catering a dinner for 37 up to the IT people up at Williams. So they, because they were on staff that night because we all knew the lights were gonna go out, and they didn't. Toby Jenkins: Oh yeah, we were afraid planes would fall out of the sky. Your current model cars would just shut down. Your computers would. Pat Hobbs: But you know, we were so hoping. I mean, you know, because restaurants are, you know, your margins are that big in a restaurant. And that was gonna get us through the next few months, you know, what we made off of New Year's Eve, and it just didn't happen. So we just kind of, we turned our own lights out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so I want our viewers to know that it was Pat Hobbs' idea to revitalize downtown Tulsa. Pat Hobbs: Oh no. Toby Jenkins: And you know, that, in 1999, he saw the vision, and so the city councilors should name a street after you. Pat Hobbs: And like I said, it was a very expensive MBA. Toby Jenkins: So, you're together, you're in Tulsa, you have your careers, you have your interests. Dennis has already questioned you about your involvement in all the non-profits. During this time, what else has been going on in your life, and what was passionate to you? Pat Hobbs: Gardening, gardening. We loved our yard over on Rockford, designed, initially designed by Dave Collins, did a fantastic job. We even brought cypress trees up from the farm. We had some cypress trees cut and Dave designed a beautiful cypress deck for us. And that was our passion for many, many years was our yard. And John's even a Linnaeus, was Woodward Park Teaching Garden. John Orsulak: Yeah, yeah. Formerly Linnaeus. Pat Hobbs: And still, you still volunteer every Tuesday. John Orsulak: Tuesday, now, yeah. Toby Jenkins: With who? John Orsulak: The Teaching Garden at Woodward Park, formerly Linnaeus, that's a whole story. But, yeah, I do that just to keep my fingers in it, because it's, it was, well, 19 �when we moved from the house, we moved downtown for three years while we were waiting for Heartland Commons to be built. And we really had no place to do, I could still go out and do some things at the garden. He had nothing, and it was driving him nuts. And that's been the one blessing of our current home is we've got a yard that's pretty much nothing was there and gave him a place to play. Dennis Neill: And give us a little more background on your thoughts about forming Heartland Commons, your passion about that, some co-housing with you. John Orsulak: Oh, gosh. Pat Hobbs: Okay, real quick, I'll give you the condensed, real quick condensed version. Performer Melanie Fry, we all know Melanie Fry here in town, been performing for 50 years, just did a production of Love Letters back in, for Valentine's. Melanie thought she and her girlfriends would get together and play water volleyball and drink wine in the summertime. And they thought, well, wouldn't this be a great idea if we all, as we age, all bought homes in the same cul-de-sac, and we can all live together and watch and take care of each other. Well, as they researched that, they found the co-housing website, and co-housing was developed in Denmark back in the 60s. And one thing led to another, they had an introductory meeting, Melanie is no longer involved in the project, she was for a little while, but she got us started along with four other families that started this journey back in 2015, I think. John Orsulak: Sounds about right. Pat Hobbs: It's been about 11 years when the initial conversation got started. But it's all about aging in place, keep going. John Orsulak: Well, it's, it's, you get, you, it's about community and having a support network that you can depend on. The house is secondary, it's nice to have, it's a new build, the, you're, you walk through the community to do what you need to do. If you're going to get mail, it's kind of like a condo place where you do that, however, if somebody's on their front porch, in co-housing, you're considered fair game. And you can be, you can visit and interact. If they're on their back porch, you usually leave them alone. That's a private space, but you're walking to get your mail, which normally would take you what, five, 10 minutes, depending on where you were in the community. For us, and that would turn into a half hour or more because you keep running into people who want to visit, who want to interact In some communities, that means a glass of wine, bottle of beer, sitting on the rail of the porch and just interacting and it's, it makes for a healthier lifestyle for older, for senior co-housing compared to traditional co-housing that is multi-generational. But it just enhances, gives you more opportunity for interaction, stimulation. You've got somebody to depend on if you need a ride, if you're needing an egg. You put it out there, somebody, you'll end up with a dozen eggs just because people want to help you out. Toby Jenkins: Very secure. 20 �Pat Hobbs: Very secure. Pat Hobbs: And you kind of look out for each other. John Orsulak: Right. We're basically our own neighborhood watch. That's evolved. We've been there over a year and we've had a few issues, but we've been working them out and had the Riverside Police, which is just two doors down from us, come over one evening and talk to us about safe practices and what to do and what not to do. And it's good to have those relationships. Toby Jenkins: So it's intentional housing, not just organic where you may know your neighbors and they sell their house and a new person moves in and you may not care for them. These are all people you chose to be around. Pat Hobbs: Everybody's become their best friends now. And it's kind of like family too because you have personalities. And sometimes your personality is buttheads, especially in a, what do I want to say, a homeowner's association meeting. And that happens everywhere. But yeah, we have common meals twice or three times a week. And it's where one of the residents will be responsible for buying the provisions. And we have a commercial kitchen in our common house and they are a team will do this evening meal for six o'clock and do the cleanup and everybody chips in $7 for their meal. And we all got, we had how many first St. Patrick's Day about, 28 or 29 of us and had this St. Patrick's meal with corned beef and hash and cabbage and it's community meal. It's all about community. John Orsulak: Yeah, it's got its pros, it's occasional cons. But overall, it's been a good experience. Toby Jenkins: Let me deviate a little bit from this because I do feel like it was good that we talk about that because there are going to be more of us that are older and we, instead of just letting housing happen, this is you purposely planning, this is what… John Orsulak: Oh, we looked at over 50 properties when we were in the area, north, south, east, downtown. And actually, we rejected the property we're currently in originally but came back to it and we realized this is where we want to be. Pat Hobbs: And it's five acres located at 71st and Riverside in that vicinity and it was an old farm, two and a half acres per lot. So we took the five acres and our community pitched in and we bought the property, we secured the bank loan to do the construction. John Orsulak: We designed it. Pat Hobbs: We had consultants come in and design it. John Orsulak: But we have, the nice thing with co-housing is you have input. You're not dictated like a traditional senior living. Nothing wrong with them, if that's your thing, good. But we set the rules. We have our own, we call them agreements that we've developed so that everybody's on the same page. You're not told what to do. You can do as much as you want. If you want to be active, you can be active. If you 21 �want to stay in your home, you can stay at home. We've got a mahjong group. We've got puzzles and TV and movie nights and it's just kind of like, okay, that floats your boat. You can be there. If not, you can just stay at home and curl up with your dog or cat if you have one. And yeah. Toby Jenkins: So thank you for sharing about this because this is, we've covered kind of a lot of areas. I want to, what a lot of people may know you for is here at the Lynn Riggs Theater in the Rainbow Room. Tell us a bit about your, just like Pat had the vision for the revitalization of downtown Tulsa with his pioneering days, he had a vision of he and John the Rainbow Room. And tell us a little bit about your vision for that in the Lynn Riggs Theater. Pat Hobbs: Well, let's go back to the 13 bullets for $13. That kind of, in my view, it kind of kicked this whole thing off when we had to replace the front windows. And that snowballed into basically an international fundraising campaign. But turning the garage downstairs into a theater. Thanks to David Nelson's help and Dennis's help and everybody else, I mean there were dozens of us on that team that were consulting on this thing. But we opened it in February of 2018. 2018, which was eight years ago. And I thought about it for a while and I thought, you know, let's do something fun with it. And I went over, I made the proposal to you, Toby. I remember going over to your house that afternoon and saying, I'd like to do this. Take it to the board or see what you have to do. And came up with the idea of Third Thursdays in the Rainbow Room. Which would be the third Thursday of every month. We do musical presentations. Now I say musical presentations. Tulsa has a plethora of talent in this town. And when people do their 32nd Chamber of Commerce elevator speech, they always talk about the arts. The philharmonic, the symphony, the ballet, the opera. But they don't really talk about the musical theater company. We have such a talented group of people in this town. And that was my vision, is to get some of these people, when they're not doing a show, to come in and do an hour and a half show. Come in and do a two-hour show. Do your own thing. If you want to do a one man show, do a one man show. If you've got half a dozen people, come in. And they're thematic. And I think one of the neatest things that I ever saw come out of this was a knight of musical theater. K-N-I-G-H-T, a knight of musical theater. And it was all songs from Camelot and Something's Rotten and Spamalot. And it was all songs about knights in musical theater. We've had some wonderful talent come through here though. We only had two presentations in 2020 because of COVID. But we've had over 60, 61, I counted them today. We've had 61 individual presentations as part of the third Thursdays. And now it's just Thursdays in the Rainbow Room because you can't just do the third Thursday. There's so much going on in town that people schedule. You've got to have it listed on a Thursday. But we've had 61 different performers. Janet Rutland, who is one of the most talented singers in Northeast Oklahoma, does her show in the Rainbow Room every two years. The latest one she did is around the Hollywood Campfire with John Wooley. And it has taken off, and she has performed that show all around Oklahoma this last year, but she premiered it here. Travis Guillory did his first drag show here. And it was three years ago, so it was 2023, I think he did his first drag Christmas. And look at him, Travis is now Miss Gay America. 22 �Toby Jenkins: Miss Gay America USA. Pat Hobbs: But we've had some wonderful, wonderful talent through this place. And I think it's exposed the center also. Having this little theater down here has exposed the Tulsa community to what we have. Many people have come in to see their friend perform, not just theater friends, but you know, like Janet, some of Janet's followings. They didn't even know it existed. They didn't know the Equality Center existed. You know, so they come down here and they, with our bar now and our seating, you know, they just, it's just like a little nightclub on a Thursday night. Dennis Neill: And Pat, do you think the opportunity for the performers to pocket a little bit of money, is that kind of a unique opportunity for some of these performers compared to the rest of them? Pat Hobbs: You know, absolutely, when you do musical theater, when you do community theater here in Tulsa, you don't get paid. It costs you two or three, $400 a show with meals and gas and costumes. But here you've got a chance to curate your own show. And the split that we've done with ticket sales is that the performers get 70% of the ticket sales. 30% goes back to the center. And you know, in most cases, that's eight, 900, $1,100 that goes back to the performer, you know, which, I don't know, you know, pays your pianist. It keeps, it's just a little enticement to keep people going, you know? Yeah. Dennis Neill: And knowing how important theater has been for both of you all this time, what do you think is the health of our theater community and where do you see it going in the future? Much like we've seen in other groups, there's a lot of small spinoffs and a lot of new theaters emerging. Are we healthy enough to support these and how do you feel like the direction is going to go for live theater? John Orsulak: That concerns me at this stage. Having moved, when I moved here, summer stage was still going on at the Performing Arts Center and that meant that was the only opportunity to do a musical for most, when Pat was doing Little Shop, or not Little Shop, Best Little Whorehouse when I moved here. And that was it. You had one show, one musical, and there were no touring companies coming around as I recall. A lot of straight plays, comedies, dramas, but if you aren't into that, it gave you no avenue. Now, I fear there have become so many splintered groups and so many organizations now within the community that it's almost spread too thin. They have so many opportunities now where these kids can do multiple shows in a year, multiple musicals in a year. But are there enough audience people to support it? It gets expensive. This past month, I don't know how many shows were going on, and the performers who want to go out and support their friends, they can't afford and they have to pick and choose. Okay, I can go to this show, but I'm gonna have to skip this one, or can I get to an IVR to see a rehearsal? Pat Hobbs: Our budget only allows us to go see so much. We're seeing, this is the third weekend of three weekends since we've been back, and it's like, okay, do we want to go? I want to go see my friends, but you know, yeah, there's a finite audience out there, I think, but they're doing some fantastic stuff. They're just doing some awesome, awesome shows. 23 �John Orsulak: And a lot of the, like Theatre Tulsa, for example, they've had ebbs and flows, the dips. So when I was there, it was an upswing, and then it had a major dip funding-wise, and they struggled, and they almost went under. But they clawed their way back up, and they've been able to, I think, restore, you know, there are always things you're always going to disagree with, as far as philosophy or structure. But, you know, Theatre Tulsa has that studio now, that used to be a dollar store, and it seems to be doing well. Pat Hobbs: It kind of makes me mad that they did that, because we've got this beautiful 100-seat theater here that they can use, but now they're using their own, because it doesn't cost them anything, you know? John Orsulak: But the nice thing with this theater, with Lynn Riggs, is it is small. It's a black box, so you have lots of flexibility on how it's used. You've got people, like Eli, running things, as far as the tech part of it. And it's big enough to do some good, solid productions, but it's small enough to be... Pat Hobbs: And we have done some really neat things here. I mean, when the Lynn Riggs can host the Tulsa Opera in a performance of I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change, and do the job that they did, it was a beautiful production. And even Chamber Music Tulsa, you know, was booked in here. So, it's taken a few years, but, you know, word's getting out. Toby Jenkins: Well, I may be overreaching, and Dennis can slap me, but that's because of you. You made it happen. He made sure the resources were there, but you sold Tulsa on Lynn Riggs' theater. Dennis Neill: Yeah, you've helped bring Bill and Jason aboard to carry on some interesting... Pat Hobbs: I know, and I'm so, so excited about those two guys who bring just another level of energy, another age, another age group, and the way Bill and Jason have embraced the community, and the way the community have embraced Bill and Jason, to have this new Broadway Clubhouse come out here later this month is just so exciting. I can't wait. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just want to ask you, I had a situation that...How does it feel to be the face of the gay community as an older couple? How does it feel? And by that I'm talking about the day that you were on the front cover of Life Senior Services. Pat Hobbs: Vintage Magazine. Toby Jenkins: Their very first openly gay married couple in Oklahoma. And how did that feel? And did you get any... I know that's incredible support, but I want to know, have y'all had experience pushback at your life in this time? John Orsulak: No, we've been told some people, what, three times over the years. I'm not saying we're normalized, but we certainly were nothing to be afraid of. And we believe in the community. We're the only gay couple at Heartwood Commons. That doesn't mean we won't have more, but we're accepted, we're not shunned. 24 �Pat Hobbs: I just wish that I had a publicist, because all these things just came about. I mean, there was no rhyme or reason. I don't have an agent. To have all these things happen, you know, Tulsa People three times, and Vintage Magazine, and then there's a couple more. They just happen. They just happen. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Vintage Magazine goes to 400,000 people. Did you know that? Pat Hobbs: No, I did not. Toby Jenkins: It's one of the largest senior publications in the country. Pat Hobbs: I feel honored. Well, you know how that came about. Toby Jenkins: No, you tell us. Pat Hobbs: My post-retirement gig at the Garden Center, I was keeping their books, and there was a young gentleman that was doing an internship in communications, coordinating website, Facebook, Instagram, and all of this. Actually, Vintage Tulsa called him to find…they wanted a face for their issue, and he had the office right next to him. He says, hey, Pat, you and John want to do this? I said, okay. It didn't even dawn on me that he could have picked another couple. He could have picked a heterosexual couple. He could have picked an individual. But he just leaned over and said, hey, you and John want to do this? They need somebody for the cover of this magazine. Oh, okay. But we never got any derogatory feedback on that. Never got any hate mail. Toby Jenkins: So you may not have gotten hate mail, and you may not have gotten overt rejection or harassment. As a couple, have there been times when you've known if you were welcome in the room or not? I mean, you talked earlier about the crews. Yeah, the Malcolm Baldrige. Pat Hobbs: Well, the Baldrige Award thing, where the principal moved his chair two feet away. You know, at this day and age, not so much anymore. John Orsulak: Yeah, I just say this is my husband, and like it or love it. Pat Hobbs: You know, honest to God, since the legalization back in 2014, that's what we do. We introduce each other as our husbands, not partner, not roommate. I mean, and it's more accepted, isn’t it? John Orsulak: I just say it. Toby Jenkins: Well, that leads us right into kind of the closing of our time together. What would you say, I mean, our situations, we're seeing so much pushback against our community, on public policy. Today, the lead story in Tulsa, Oklahoma and the Tulsa World was state agencies, not state-funded organizations or agencies or colleges or universities or schools, could not acknowledge Pride Month. They couldn't fly a rainbow flag. Pat Hobbs: Well, let me tell you a story about what happened over at the Garden Center a couple of years ago. Dennis, thank you for the flag. May I tell this story? So, you supplied... 25 �Dennis Neill: Tulsa Progress Flags. Pat Hobbs: Tulsa Progress Flags. And it was flown, the Garden Center manager, Lee, flew it over the teaching garden and was instructed that the only time that the flag could be flown was during the month of June and immediately take it down the first of July. You know, half the staff at the garden center at the time identifies as LGBTQ+. And it was a city, it's city property. Take the flag down. Just made me so mad. You know, and this whole thing with the flag, it doesn't make any sense. What have we done differently over the last 20 years? Why now? Why are you offended? Toby Jenkins: So what would be your messages to those who come after us or for young activists? I always like to say it this way. In a hundred years, archaeologists are going to dig through the ruins of this property and they're going to discover that there was a day in America where there had to be LGBT centers and they uncover our archives. So the archaeologists, when they uncover your interview, what would be your message for the future, for those who come after us, and for young LGBTQ people and who identify as queer today? John Orsulak: Gosh, it's changed so much over the my lifetime. I have a former student of mine, fifth grade. I remember seeing him doing pirouettes on the playground. And I pegged him. At least I thought I did. And then later on, sure enough, and he's very now very active in the arts community here in Tulsa, has a husband, supportive family, and it's just like, oh, you know, it's become normal, much more normalized, and I hope it continues to be normalized where we don't have to live with any fear. That it's just, we're kind of at the point where it's like, I don't give a damn anymore. You know, you live with who I am, how I am, and if you don't like it, then go away or do whatever and I'll survive. I'm a worker bee, so it doesn't bother me. Pat Hobbs: Well, I've got my political comments, some that need to remain. I need to sit on it for a minute, but these bigots out there, these right-wing bigots, why now? What have we done? Like I said, what have we done? You still get your hair cut by a gay barber, okay? You still buy flowers at a gay florist, don't you? I don't understand why this movement is... And the one thing that scares me, though, is that they call them immigration detention centers for all these warehouses, that these empty warehouses, they're going to put all these immigration…I don't think it's going to be mostly for immigrants. I think it's going to turn out they're going to pick and choose what part of society goes in these places. That's just my opinion. I don't think there's enough immigrants to fill up all these warehouses. Toby Jenkins: Any other things for the future or for those who come after us or for today, for people who are wanting to know what to do. John Orsulak: And use your resources, the Equality Center. I hope it survives and continues to flourish because you need this. You need support. You know, if you're not alone, they need to know that. Pat Hobbs: The one thing I have learned from the Rainbow Room and the people who come here is that we are designated here at OkEq as a safe place. Always have been. And I guess it was during Pride or maybe that first Pride piano thing that we 26 �had a couple of years ago. But I had a lady come up to me and say, I feel safe here. Yes, that's why we need this place. Toby Jenkins: Well, it is March 19th, 2026 and today our interviewees, our special guests have been John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs. And they've been together 36 years. And joining us have been Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, and Amanda Thompson, the archivist. And this is Toby Jenkins. Thank you so much for tuning in. 27 � https://history.okeq.org/files/original/0655db9527d9c965e3ae77cf9ab9ecd7.mp4 5fe3a81c4475dc5db209b6fe8bc46c29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Orsulak, Pat Hobbs, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 19, 2026 Subject The topic of the resource John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Oral History Interview from March 19, 2026 Description An account of the resource This interview with Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak explores their 36-year relationship following a chance encounter at a church, their careers and longtime involvement in theater and music. They also highlight their activism within the LGBTQ community in Tulsa and the vision they had and implemented to bring the Lynn Riggs Theatre at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center to life. They share personal stories, including the passing of Pat’s brother to AIDS, insights on community involvement, and their vision for a more inclusive future. 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV/AIDs interview John Orsulak Lynn Riggs Theatre OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pat Hobbs Toby Jenkins transcript video https://history.okeq.org/files/original/fe275c248ba0dbafa7183acaf093ec10.pdf 4d660208dae603563b4e8c3a5a02f83a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Warren Ray Duvall Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: February 10, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, February 23, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Warren Duvall Summary This interview with Warren explores his life story, from growing up on a family farm in Oklahoma to his military service and his journey as a gay man. Warren shares personal insights into his experiences with sexuality, military service during Vietnam, and navigating life in Oklahoma and Florida. This interview provides a deep insight into the life experiences of a long-time LGBTQ+ community member, covering personal stories, community involvement, and the evolution of LGBTQ+ rights and health issues over decades. Keywords Oklahoma history, LGBTQ+ journey, military service, Vietnam era, personal stories, Oklahoma farm, gay life, military healthcare, social change, personal growth LGBTQ+ history, community activism, AIDS awareness, gay rodeo, bear clubs, senior LGBTQ+ support, Tulsa Key Topics ● Family farm history in Oklahoma ● Military service during Vietnam era and Japan ● Journey of sexual identity and coming out Personal stories of LGBTQ+ life and community involvement ● The impact of AIDS on the community and healthcare responses ● The development of gay rodeo, bear events and community events ● Support for LGBTQ+ elders and seniors Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 02:02 Family Farm History in Oklahoma 03:53 Growing Up in Muldrow and School Life 2 �08:01 Experiences with Segregation and Community 12:01 Post-High School Education and Military Draft 14:53 Military Service in U.S, Navy in the Vietnam Era and Stationing Japan 19:58 Reflections on Military Service and Vietnam Memorial 21:02 Realization of Sexual Orientation 24:57 Exploring Gay Identity in the Military and Florida 29:54 Relationships and Coming Out to Family 40:08 Life in Tulsa and Connecting with the LGBTQ+ Community 48:04 First Experiences in Gay Bars and Social Life 54:59 Personal Relationships and Life Changes 02:29 Meeting the First Partner and Early Community Life 06:55 First Encounters with AIDS and Healthcare Response 14:53 Community Involvement and Fundraising Efforts 24:57 The Role of Gay Rodeo and Cultural Identity 34:55 Support for Elders and the Impact of COVID-19 45:11 Reflections on a Life of Service and Activism 54:59 Advice for Younger Generations and Future Outlook Warren Duvall Oral History Interview Feb 10, 2026 Toby Jenkins: All right, this is Toby Jenkins and Amanda Thompson, the archivist at Oklahomans for Equality, and Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality. Here we are in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library for our archival interview with a wonderful person. Your name, please? Warren Duvall: Warren Ray Duvall. Toby Jenkins: And you live here in Tulsa, Warren? Warren Duvall: I live here in Tulsa, I've returned. I've been back for six years. I lived here for 33 years. Had to go back to the farm for 13 years. And we sold off half of it, but that included the house. Toby Jenkins: And where is the farm? Warren Duvall: It's south of Muldrow, Oklahoma. The farm's about two miles from the Arkansas River down there. Toby Jenkins: Oh, wonderful. So, in Tulsa, and I'm still- What county is that? Warren Duvall: That's Sequoyah County. Toby Jenkins: But you're still in Oklahoma? Warren Duvall: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Sallisaw and Sequoyah? Warren Duvall: Yeah, Sallisaw is the county seat. 3 �Toby Jenkins: All right, so Warren, where were you born? Warren Duvall: Well, I was conceived in Oklahoma. I was the first member of my siblings, and there was four of us. My mother and my three siblings were all born at home in the same bedroom. I was the first one that they took my mother to the hospital, and I was delivered in St. Edward's Mercy Hospital in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Toby Jenkins: I know it well. That's where my son was born. Toby Jenkins: So, are you from down around that area? That's where your farm is? You told me. Is that a payor's farm? Warren Duvall: Yeah, it's 15 miles east of the Arkansas-Oklahoma border. Toby Jenkins: And so that's down by Muldrow, as we talked earlier. How long has the farm been in your family? Warren Duvall: It's my mother's father. He came there in 1900 and started buying land from some of the Indians that, at that point, had been allotted 160 acres or whatever they gave back then. And so he started buying up land. At one point, he had about 500 acres. So he was a big farmer. I wouldn't say he was a rancher, but he ran a dairy also. So he was a pretty big-time farmer over the years. Toby Jenkins: So this farm has now been in your family over 100 years. Warren Duvall: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And your mother was born there, your siblings. But they took you, she went to the hospital for you. Warren Duvall: For me. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Warren Duvall: That was, my Lord… Toby Jenkins: Your date of birth. Warren Duvall: December 20th, 1947. Toby Jenkins: 1947, right after the war. Warren Duvall: Right, I’m a post-war baby. Toby Jenkins: So you were born there in Muldrow. Did you grow up there? How long did you? Warren Duvall: I grew up on the farm just south of Muldrow. The only part of being in Arkansas was, that's where the hospital was. So I went across the border and was born in Fort Smith, Arkansas at St. Edward's Hospital. Toby Jenkins: Did you go to school in Muldrow, or was there? 4 �Warren Duvall: I started out in a little country school called the Lee's Chapel, which is the Lee's Chapel community. When I started, they had eight grades there. And probably, I'd say 35 students. And after a couple years, they went down to one teacher because the population started reducing, it was worse for the students. And so for probably the third and fourth grade, we were just sixth grade. And then we just were part of the Muldrow. Toby Jenkins: You were consolidated with Muldrow? Warren Duvall: Consolidated, well, yeah, yes. Toby Jenkins: Did you go to high school in Muldrow? Warren Duvall: Did everything else outside of a very short period of time in Oklahoma City for two weeks in the fourth grade. I did that when I left Lee's Chapel and went to Muldrow in the fifth grade, all the way through graduation. Toby Jenkins: So you would have graduated from high school in 1966 from Muldrow? Warren Duvall: From Muldrow High School. Toby Jenkins: Okay, now did you, y'all lived on the farm. Did your family farm? I mean, is that what your parents did for their careers? Warren Duvall: Well, by the time, I don't know exactly when, but when I was a very small child, they had to, dad was farming the farm. Dad had a drinking problem and it was my mother's farm. She would never sign him over to it because she always said he'd just lose it. And so anyway, we farmed it. We started leasing out the bottom land, which is the farm land, crop land, the upland, the pasture land. We still kept that, kept cattle. And my brothers and dad and mom all had horses. I never had a horse back then. I rode behind my dad a lot. Used to, you know, he'd start galloping some and I was about to go, bouncing. Hanging on for dear life. Toby Jenkins: You lived out in the country. Did you ride a school bus? Warren Duvall: School bus. Toby Jenkins: What were your interests in school? Warren Duvall: In school, recess. Warren Duvall: Geography, history. Actually, I didn't enjoy history in school. You learn to enjoy history after Toby Jenkins: So were you in like school activities? Warren Duvall: Well, at least chapel, the school, there really wasn't much school activity. Field trips and things like that. But there were no active sports for us. We just did, I guess you'd call it intramural things on the playground. Toby Jenkins: So when you got to Muldrow, were you involved in school activities there? 5 �Warren Duvall: In junior high, I played basketball and football in the summer of the eighth grade, or in the spring. Two weeks before the school year was out, I came down with a rare disease called infectious mononucleosis. It was also, the nickname of it was the kissing disease. I don't know if you've heard that, but that's because the soldiers picked it up in Europe and brought it back to the United States. I was one of two people in the county that had it that year. I have no idea where it came from. Toby Jenkins: Were you kissing soldiers? Warren Duvall: Not yet. Toby Jenkins: So that was there in Muldrow. Warren Duvall: So after that, they wouldn't let me play sports for three years, and by the end, I didn't feel like it. Toby Jenkins: Were you in choir, or in a band, or? Warren Duvall: No, boys didn't do that in Muldrow High School. Toby Jenkins: But you worked on a farm, so you had to do chores. Warren Duvall: Rigorous farm chores. Toby Jenkins: And you had to do all that before you went to school? Warren Duvall: Oh yeah, got up at the crack of dawn and milked the cows and fed the cows. Toby Jenkins: Just out of curiosity, you said you graduated in 1966. Integration would have been an issue that would have been happening all around you in Oklahoma. Do you remember if your school class was an integrated school in Muldrow? I mean, were there black students? Yeah. Native American students? Warren Duvall: The Muldrow had a one through six black elementary school. For black students. Toby Jenkins: Segregated. Warren Duvall: Segregated. But then once they came to junior high, it was integrated. And I, it was before I graduated, they closed down the elementary school, so the black elementary school. So they were fully integrated. Toby Jenkins: By the time you were in high school? Warren Duvall: Yeah, I would think so. Toby Jenkins: Now, I know that Fort Chaffee's not far from there. Warren Duvall: Correct. Toby Jenkins: So there's kind of a large population of Cuban refugees, Vietnamese refugees. Did you go to school with any Vietnamese or Cuban? 6 �Warren Duvall: No, because that was after. Toby Jenkins: That was later. Warren Duvall: Yeah, that was much later. Toby Jenkins: So you graduated from high school in Muldrow. Now, did you go to the north side high school or the south side high school, or was there just one high school? Warren Duvall: Just one high school. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And still that way. Warren Duvall: My class graduated 103. Toby Jenkins: Well, now, that's a big class for an Oklahoma. That was the biggest class. Warren Duvall: Well, it was the biggest class they ever had. Warren Duvall: It was several years before they exceeded that. Of course, it's a lot more now. Toby Jenkins: And you graduated in 1966. Just out of curiosity, do you remember anything about our times, like your favorite music or your favorite movie star or your favorite... Warren Duvall: Well, I loved to dance. We partied a lot. This is junior high only. We didn't do that particularly in elementary school years. I don't know. Toby Jenkins: You remember your favorite music, your favorite musician? Warren Duvall: Just, you know, rock and roll, bebop, whatever you want, swing dance and all that sort of thing. And then by senior high, we had a little group of guys for a band and we had picnics and we'd... fill up one of those covered picnic areas. We did that a lot in my senior year. Toby Jenkins: Were you in the band? Warren Duvall: No, no. I have no musical talent. No one in my family does. Toby Jenkins: Just danced. Warren Duvall: But loved to dance. Toby Jenkins: Now, you get finished with high school. What did you do after that? Warren Duvall: I went almost directly. I graduated at the end of May, and I went into the radiology program at St. Edwards Mercy Hospital in July of 66. It was a two-year program, hospital based. Most nursing programs and lab techs and radiology students and so forth, the hospital owned back then. Even OU had a program, but it was a certificate program. It wasn't a degreed program at that time. So, I have a graduation certificate in licensed radiology for 40 years. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Through St. Edwards in... Warren Duvall: That was my school. Toby Jenkins: And was that where you went to work right after that? Warren Duvall: For a short period of time. Toby Jenkins: And then what happened? Warren Duvall: Well, we graduated in July and in August I got my Selective Service Physical Request. So, I went down, well, with Dad and Mom's advice, go join... Dad was in the Navy. So, he said, go down and join the Navy. I don't want you in infantry. Toby Jenkins: So, you had your certification in radiology. So, you had a medical background. Warren Duvall: Correct. Toby Jenkins: And you got your draft notice. What war was the United States fighting? Warren Duvall: The Vietnam War. Big time. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember your feelings when that happened, when you got that notice? I mean, by then you're a young man, you're already having a career path. Do you remember... Warren Duvall: Well, back then, the Selective Service, once you got out, whoever you were employed with, they had to hire you back. I don't know if it's still a policy or not because it's voluntary now. But, so when I got out, and I did radiology in the Navy, that typical military. The Navy had programs in schools, so they had A, B, and C as you went up the line. So, they had their own radiology program. So, they made me go, obviously through boot camp, and then they made me go to a core school for six months, even though I was a radiographer. And then when I got... I joined the Naval Reserve, and that was an obligation for six years, minimum six years. Two years active duty. And I did about, of six years, I did about half of it active and about half of it active reservist. I had to go to meetings during the week and summer camps. And that was from 68 to 74. Toby Jenkins: Now, were you ever deployed into Vietnam? Warren Duvall: I wasn't deployed to Vietnam, but I was sent to the US Naval Hospital in Yokosuka, Japan. We got medevacs every day from Vietnam, which was mostly Marines, all kinds of shapes. Some of them didn't make it. Some might get a little emotional here. You know, these guys came in all kinds of shapes. Some of them didn't leave the hospital alive. You would have incidents like you would maybe doing a portable x-ray in ICU. And let's say the patient was, you know, lost his legs and one arm. And he was delirious and had a fever. I was trying to do a portable xray on him. And he kept calling for his mom. He kept wanting me to scratch his foot. He 8 �didn't have legs, you know. So those kinds of things. Now, a corpsman on the floor wouldn't be directly involved with patient care. As a radiographer, I just dealt with them when we were performing some kind of radiology procedure on them. We had a separate unit upstairs for the officers. They were cared for separately. Got more care, more specific one-on-one type of care than the ward guys did. Some of the guys would come down with diseases in Vietnam. The U.S. Naval Hospital was the Navy's Far East Hospital. So we were the primary hospital for, you know, let's say a soldier or a sailor was injured seriously or moderately. They would come to us. We would do triage. The triage initially took place in Vietnam. And then they sent them to us for a lot of correcting surgeries and things. Then they were sent to the state side, to the military hospitals for major repairs. Additional medical care. Toby Jenkins: So you had to stabilize them. So you were in a trauma unit, basically seeing people in trauma.. Warren Duvall: Well, the hospital was basically a trauma. You could also serve civilians, dependents. There was housing on the base. Not a lot for dependents And then there was a place about, I don't know, 20 miles off the base where they had a unit just for civilians of the military housing. And I don't know how many, let's say a few hundred there. So we took care of them. And the World's Fair was taking place. Let's see, I went there in February of 1970. It was actually February 20, 1970. And I got out on February 20, 1972. So it had been two years to the day I left for it. I returned home. Toby Jenkins: And that was in Japan. You were stationed in Japan. And what was the name of the city again? Warren Duvall: Yokosuka, Y-O-K-O-S-U-K-A. Toby Jenkins: OK. Well, on behalf of our staff here, we want to thank you for your service to the American people. Warren Duvall: We weren't treated very well back then coming home. Toby Jenkins: No, there was such a, it was a volatile time in our nation's history. Warren Duvall: And you didn't wear your uniforms off base. You just didn't talk about your military openly unless it was just someone you knew or whatever. So the way we're accepted now was so foreign in the beginning it took me a long time to put on a cap or whatever. And I do that regularly ever since, ever since I guess Iraq and Afghanistan. Conflicts and so forth. Then people started thanking you for your service. Toby Jenkins: Well, I think probably just my thoughts. There began to be a strong advocacy that the Vietnam vets had done their duty. They did what they were told and required to do. They didn't make the decision whether we were in or not. And don't you feel like the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C. began to change the nation's attitude? 9 �Warren Duvall: It was such a- Well, I'm sure it had a lot to do with it. Such a moving and meaningful- Yeah, if you've never been there, it's extremely moving because you have the Wall. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and they have a replica of it that travels around the country. It's been in Tulsa at least twice. Warren Duvall: Yeah, I've been to it in Oklahoma City and in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: So how old were you when you got out of the military? Warren Duvall: How was I? I was 24. Toby Jenkins: So you were just a young man. Were you married? Did you marry? Warren Duvall: Never married. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Now, during this time, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? Warren Duvall: Well, I'm a gay man. Toby Jenkins: You're a gay man. Warren Duvall: I've been gay all my life, but I didn't know it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So when did you become aware of your sexual orientation, you had attraction to your same sex? Warren Duvall: So there was a, yeah, there was a, I guess. Toby Jenkins: When did you, when were you aware that you were attracted to men and that others were not? That the other boys didn't have those things? Warren Duvall: Well, I battled that, let's say in high school. Cause, you know, my best friend, I mean, you know we were growing up and slept together and everything. So it was very comforting for me to snuggle up with him. He was just about as straight as you could ever be. But that sort of thing, because I started realizing that, you know, that I was more interested in my same sex than I was in the opposite sex. Toby Jenkins: So in high school, this wouldn't have been, were you able to tell anybody you had those feelings? Warren Duvall: No, I didn't admit that to myself at that time. I was always under the impression that I would, you know, this was an adolescent thing, and that I would like to grow out of it. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you went off, you got out of high school, you went over to school in Fort Smith, to radiology as an adult, now. Did you pursue that then? I mean, did you… 10 �Warren Duvall: I did get offered one after I graduated, and I was solo working the night shift. I had a student with me part of the time, but this guy that was in the, he was orderly in the ER, and he started getting extra friendly with me. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so he flirted? Warren Duvall: Yeah, and actually talked me into taking him into a room and locking the door. Toby Jenkins: So he was your first intimate? Warren Duvall: No, my cousin. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Warren Duvall: Eventually, we were little then, but eventually in junior high and into high school, so now we would still… Toby Jenkins: You were a young adult. You knew what you… Warren Duvall: When I started realizing and accepting, it was when I was overseas in the Navy, and you're around men everywhere. The only women were nurses, basically, young officers. They had male and female nurses, but it started in my attraction. Some of my friends are just someone that I physically was attracted to. I realized in high school that I was extremely fond of some of the male…The Big Valley, you remember the half-brother, what was his name? Anyway, he was always shuffling his shirt. It was a country and western. I was very attracted. Toby Jenkins: Bonanza? Warren Duvall: No, it wasn't Bonanza, but I think it was the Big Valley, but anyway. Yeah, I think that's what it was. Toby Jenkins: So you definitely liked some of the guys on the Big Valley. Big Valley was a TV show. Barbara Stanwyck was in that. Toby Jenkins: In the military. .. Warren Duvall: Didn't do anything in the military. Toby Jenkins: But you became aware. Warren Duvall: Became very aware. Toby Jenkins: Were there other gay men? Did you meet other gay men in the military? Warren Duvall: Not until, well, I was around them, but I didn't learn to just, I don't know. The last month or two I was there, I found out there was a group of gay guys that lived off base that leased a house, and there's about six or seven of them. But I never had any contact with them. Toby Jenkins: Any relationship. 11 �Warren Duvall: There was one guy that was, he was a lab tech, and he was very feminine, and he was very expressive and everything, and a voice that went along with the stereotype, so he was pretty obvious. Nobody said anything, well, I mean, they may have, but not in the general population of the hospital. Toby Jenkins: So you said you never explored that while you were in the military. Now, when you left the bases, while you were deployed, did you ever go out and find gay clubs in Japan, or? Warren Duvall: I knew of one off base, which we went into. I mean, they would be straight guys, and some of them might have been gay, but you know. We went as a curiosity of going into a gay bar, that sort of thing. Before I left the active duty, I'd made up my mind that I was going to explore my gayness when I got back to the States. I didn't know it was all around me. But so I went exploring sooner if I don't make it. Toby Jenkins: Finished with your deployments, and you returned to the United States, and where was it, did you go directly back to Oklahoma? Warren Duvall: I went back to Oklahoma, and went back to work at the hospital where I trained, because they had to hire me back. And then a friend of mine, a good friend before, went to a neighboring community, Roland. Of course, we were adversaries in school, but Roland was, at that time, much smaller, it really wasn't even much, a couple service stations. Then Interstate 40 came through, Roland, and Roland just exploded. Toby Jenkins: So you had come back, decided that you were gonna explore your sexual orientation. Warren Duvall: So this guy graduated from Rowland, but when the fall semester started and my fellow classmates were going off to school, he was in Wilburton, junior college in Wilburton. Okay, some of my fellow students were down there and they met him and when they came home on the weekends and the partying and stuff, that's how I got acquainted with him and we had particular fondness for each other. Toby Jenkins: So y'all developed a relationship? Warren Duvall: Not an intimate relationship, but over time. He showed up after I had come back. One night he showed up, he'd become a teacher and taught in Ponca City for a year before he came back. He was going to Florida, he had two fellow female teachers that had gone to Florida and found jobs down there and he said, why don't you go with me and let's look for work down there. Well, that was just an ideal thing for me because I was going to get away either to Florida or New York State. The only gay cousin that I know I had, but probably not, but he was older than my mother because his father was my grandfather, Tidwell, mom's father. His first wife died from one of those diseases they had back then, consumption or whatever. And then he was single for many years. So he had one son and the one son got married and had two kids, one girl, one boy. Well, Fred was actually four years older than mom, but mom was his aunt because there was a long gap between when my grandfather married the second time. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Was he gay? Warren Duvall: Well, yeah, he was gay, but no one knew that. He went through the military during the war. He was an officer, he had a doctorate in business, so he taught at universities and things in California. When I was getting out, or let's say the last six months or so, he started writing to me. He'd come home because his parents were in California and they were dying one at a time and his sister took care of them. I don't think she ever married, but I didn't really know her. I don't know if I probably saw her when I was young. Toby Jenkins: And where did he live? Warren Duvall: When he started contacting me, he was in New York City. I think he taught business at New York City University, I believe. So he started writing me letters because he'd come home, stopped spending time with mom, either going or coming from his parents, and they died pretty close together. So mom put him in my old bedroom, and so he started writing to me. He would tell me, well, your mom put me in your bedroom, I just, you know, I felt really comfortable there and I felt like I needed to write you a letter if you'd wanted me to communicate with. So we communicated back and forth until I got out and he wanted me to come and see him. He told me that he had this young man that lived with him. That's as much as he told me. So when I got out and then my friend came along and went to Florida, so I was gay, he was gay, and after we moved to Florida, Roy and I got an apartment and then the night I pulled in with my U-Haul, my motorcycle, my U-Haul and my few possessions, I saw this huge man because I pulled into the parking lot and the back of our apartment had sliding doors and I could see this huge man in there. So I, you know, I went in, and Roy introduced me to Gary, and Gary was the nicest guy. He was a school teacher. We both got jobs down there, so he hadToby Jenkins: You got a job in a hospital. What city in Florida? Warren Duvall: In Florida it would have been...The hospital was in Cocoa, which is on the mainland from Cocoa Beach, and the name of the hospital was Wusthof, a 200-bed hospital. So that's where I went to work. But anyway, after a while Gary invited me and Roy to move in with him because his roommates were leaving or whatever. I think he had a couple of roommates and so, to make a long story short, there was three gay guys living together, none of us talking about gayness, and there was a TV series, gosh, I can't remember the name of it. It was the first thing I saw in a TV series where this guy was a married man and realized he was gay and came out. And that story was the big thing because it was the first thing on TV that talked about being gay. I don't know if you remember it or not, and so that kind of opened us up, you know, because we were very interested in that and so forth. But when I went to work at Wusthof, there was this gorgeous Italian man who was a respiratory therapist... And when I'd see him in the cafeteria, you know stealing glances, never talking to him personally or anything. And so time went on and I had just gotten me a, I had just ordered me a new car and I was going into the bank, you know, to get my loan and everything, and I was in my cut13 �off jeans and you know, and I come out of the bank and this car was sitting there and the sun was to my back so I couldn't see who was in the car and he had pulled up and rolled his window down and yelled out at me. So you know, I really couldn't see him. So I walk over to the window and I say it's this guy, you know. And he's like, do you live around here? And I'm like, yeah, a couple miles down in the Atlantic. And he said, well, I just live a few blocks from here, but we'll have to get together, that sort of thing. He had two kids, his wife worked on the base, there was an Air Force base- St Patrick Air Force Base, I think, which was south of Kennedy Space Center, and anyway. So one thing led to the other. And then he showed up as a patient one day for an IVP, which is a kidney x-ray procedure that you did back then with contrast with the kidneys and bladders would show up, ureters and bladders would show up. So he came in for that. So we got real friendly while I was doing the procedure on him. That happened just before I ran into him at the bank, but anyway he made arrangements for me to come over when his wife was working. That was my first affair of sorts. The guy was nuts. Toby Jenkins: They usually are. Warren Duvall: First thing he wanted to do, he wanted to move out and he wanted to, he insisted on me telling my roommates that I was gay, which was very hard for me to do because we'd never talked about it. Toby Jenkins: But your roommates were gay. Warren Duvall: Yeah. But they didn't particularly react to that. Roy seemed to be quite jealous of this guy. I can't think of his name right now. I don't think he's with us for several years now, but anyway, so we moved out. He always changes his mind from day to day, and so I didn't know anything to do except run away from him and come back home. At the same time, my mother was complaining that dad was falling off the wagon and that was her excuse to get me back home too. Well, when he found out that I was going to leave, he packed up and came to Oklahoma with me. I can't get rid of this guy. Toby Jenkins: So this was the Italian guy. Warren Duvall: This was the Italian guy. Toby Jenkins: And he had left his wife and his kids. Warren Duvall: At that point, he had left his wife and kids and came to Oklahoma with me. Toby Jenkins: And that wasn't the plan. Warren Duvall: That wasn't the plan. I had job interviews in Oklahoma City and job interviews in Tulsa and one interview in Bartlesville. He was a respiratory therapist. I don't know if I said that. So he interviewed, he didn't have any appointments or 14 �anything, but he interviewed in some hospitals in Oklahoma City, I guess in Tulsa too. He got accepted for a job in Bartlesville was the only place he got an offer to go to work. So that worked for me because he had to go to Bartlesville and I was intending on finding a job in Tulsa anyway. So I found a job at Doctors Hospital at 25th and Harvard. I worked there 27 and a half years for a variety of routine procedures, thoracic procedures, surgical procedures, emergency room procedures. CAT scan came along. I worked with CAT scans in the early stages, so I really didn't like it. That's more one-onone with my patients. CT was, you know, you stuck them in this unit out there and you were in a separate room. Warren Duvall: So back in Tulsa, did that relationship end? Warren Duvall: Yes, but it was very difficult because I could not get rid of him and he kept coming down and said, I'm gonna move in with you. And I'm like, no, you can't do that. So when he saw that I wasn't going to do that, he called his wife, sell the house and came up here. So she came up there. Of course, he was always wanting me to come to their house on the weekends and things. She was very nice, very innocent, and from a big family. They were, you know, they were fromToby Jenkins: Was she aware that he had relationships with men? Warren Duvall: No, she might've suspected. She never asked me directly. But he was very belligerent to her once she came there and they bought a house and everything. But he kept trying to come back into my life. So, you know, I just, it was a very uncomfortable situation. And I would take him down to my parents. He wanted to go down... that thing. And the first time I took him, my brother was down in the field and they were cutting greens, I think, spinach. Warren Duvall: And mom said, oh, we'll take him down. Jerry's down there. Made him see a farm, you know, what goes on on a farm. So I took him down there. Well, I swear to God, he was so self-conscious of whether he was butch or not that he literally had a friend film him walking to see if he swished too much or, I meanToby Jenkins: So he had a lot of internalized homophobia. Warren Duvall: He had all kinds of….He was, I don't know, he was bipolar, I think. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you take him down with you, did you come out to your family as gay? Warren Duvall: No, no, no, still had not come out. After him, I decided, well, I'm not straight. I mean, I'm not gay, because this is nuts. So I tried, I came back to Oklahoma and tried to come to Tulsa, tried to play the straight game for two or three more years. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that almost broke you, huh? So you're in Tulsa. Let's speed along, because that was all fascinating to me. So you're in Tulsa, and this relationship, you got away from that. Did you begin to connect with the community here? Warren Duvall: Well, so my friend that we went to Florida with, he stayed down there for that two or three years, and then he finally came back and was in the Muldrow, 15 �Roland , Fort Smith area. He was a school teacher, but he wound up going to EMT school down in Florida and worked for their ambulance and worked in the hospitals and things like that, even though he had a, he was a math major. He came back. Toby Jenkins: Well, you're in Tulsa. I'm just curious, when did you start connecting with the gay community? Warren Duvall: Okay, he showed up, and we went to an adult movie theater downtown on Main Street on about 5th, and the Taj Mahal was around the corner. Well, I knew that that was a gay bar, even though I was still doing the straight scene. But anyway, he brought a fellow school teacher who was obviously a feminine gay man. They wanted to go to the Taj Mahal, and I was like, oh no, because my thought was every family member and every person I work with is gonna be outside the door watching me walk in this gay bar. I mean, that was my mindset. I was so scared to do it, so they were kind of put out with me. But anyway, that was kind of the opening. Then this girl came to work at Doctors, a fellow tech. She was a really attractive, pixie girl, and we got along really well, and then she got what wound up being her roommate, a job there in radiology as an aide, getting patients and helping running in the dark room, things like that. So I got really, we got closer and closer and ran around with them and everything, and slowly got around to the point that we were both gay. So lesbians brought me out. They took me to, it was before Queen of Hearts on Main Street. It was, what was it, it was a drag bar. What was the name of that one? And they took me to another bar that was on Utica and what's that, 4th Street. There was a TG&Y there, and now it's a County Medical, some kind of department there, but right on the north side of the parking lot was this bar that was a gay bar. That's the first place they took me. So we go up and we sit down at the bar, and here's these two or three floozy gals in there, and this black one walks up and sits down on the barstool beside me and strikes up a conversation with me, and I'm just talking to her, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and she goes about her way. And one of the girls leaned over and said, you know, that's a drag queen, don't you know that? Toby Jenkins: Thought they had you in a lesbian bar. Warren Duvall: I just thought she was a, you know, a floozy gal, you know, trying to put the make on me. Toby Jenkins: So did you ever start going to the bars by yourself? Warren Duvall: So this continued, you know. I would talk to them while going out, and they, of course, there was a lesbian bar on Memorial between 15th and 21st. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember it? Shotzi's, or the Club? Warren Duvall: That was the later name of it. Toby Jenkins: The Club. 16 �Warren Duvall: The Club, yeah, the club. It was really a girls' bar, but the guys would go in early there. Back then, you know, it was liquor by the wink, you know, you had a brown bag, you know, and so forth, but, so they'd take me there, and they had to introduce me to some guy here, and nothing happened, you know, and one night I wanted to go out, and, uh. Susan said, just go out on your own. Oh, I'm afraid to do that. Well, you know, come to the Club, you know, some of the girls in there and everything. So I did. I struck out on my own and I was just having my drinks and smoking and that sort of thing. And I got this other mixed drink. I'm like, I didn't order that. Well, there's a gentleman over there that bought you this drink. And I said, well, who is it? And I looked around and there's this big old guy over there and he was just grinning. So that was my first introduction to the gay community. Because he introduced me to all his gay friends and I became part of their group. Back then, gay Tulsa was kind of cliquish. I mean, if you weren't in a group, you know, you didn't have much of a gay social life. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you eventually end up with a relationship? I mean, you… Warren Duvall: Well, for once I came out and that was a whole new experience for me and everything. So I was partying hard, meeting lots of tricks. And at some point along about the time it was about like 1980 or so, there was this little one paragraph article in Tussle World about these gay men in New York City and L.A. that were coming down with this strange disease, you know. Of course, that caught my attention. And then you start hearing more and more rumors about that. And I thought in my mind, I need to settle down with someone. Well, about four of us went to Oklahoma City for one weekend and I met this cowboy down there, Roger. And we were at one of the bars up on 39th Street, a smaller bar. Of course, it changed, and had many names. I don't remember what it was called back then. But anyway, he caught my eye when he came in and we were back in the pool area, playing pool. So he caught my eye and I commented on him to my friends. Well, why don't you go up there and talk to him? Well, I'm very shy, very shy back then, especially gay shy. But finally I got my nerve up and went up there and he was sitting there by himself. It was early. There was just us and him. All that was in there at that time, the bartender. So I sat down with him at a high table and we struck up a conversation and people came in, people came in. And he kept, he would say, well, I'll buy us another round if you'll go get it. So I'd go get it. So I sat there with him for two or three hours and finally he said, I'm gonna have to go to the bathroom. He says, I've got a cast on my leg. And he did get a cast on his leg. So he'd gotten into a wreck. He was a druggie. He had a wild gay life in the Navy on board ships that I knew nothing about. Anyway…. Toby Jenkins: So you all ended up together. Warren Duvall: So we ended up together that night and the next weekend I called him and I went down. And some of my friends were there too. Anyway, we went out to dinner and he was high as a kite. And anyway, we spent the night at the new gay club at the hotel in Oklahoma City, the Habana Inn. I haven't been there since the new owners, but. 17 �So we ended up, he came up the next weekend and I took him out to Zebra's to play some, about 33rd and Yale. Toby Jenkins: Zippers. Warren Duvall: Zippers. And anyway, before the weekend was over, he told me, well, you know, I'd like to have a permanent relationship with you. And he was starting to, he had just went through a treatment program at the VA, but he was falling off the wagon and the reason he broke his leg was because heToby Jenkins: Sobriety program. So y'all ended up together. Warren Duvall: Right. And he was from Oklahoma City. So he moved to Tulsa with me. And that was 82, early 82. Toby Jenkins: And how long were y'all together? Warren Duvall: 10 years. Toby Jenkins: You said that you were in the medical field and you had seen the notice about some of the first AIDS patients in New York. What did that begin to look like in Tulsa? Warren Duvall: Well, it was, you know, it started to be a general conversation when you went out, you know, guys talking about it and so forth. And of course you got more and more information. And then the first gay patient we got was this big old man. You know, like any big straight man. I mean, no sense of being gay. Of course, the rumor was he was in ICU coming in sick. And the rumor was this guy's gay, you know? And so he was, I don't think he got out of there. I think he died in the hospital after a couple of weeks. So he was the first AIDS patient that I dealt with. Toby Jenkins: What was the hospital’s…Y'all were dealing with your first AIDS patient. What were the general policies? Warren Duvall: Well, I mean, they just put him in isolation. So just a typical isolation patient, you know, you had to get on up and mask up and everything. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you were afraid to work with him. Didn't really know, did you? Warren Duvall: Didn't know very much at all. But he was very, he wasn't a stereotypical type gay guy. You know, and so our staff couldn't believe that that man was gay, you know? But anyway, that was my first time working with a gay patient. Toby Jenkins: When did you get involved with the community, the gay community, and their response to AIDS? Warren Duvall: Okay, when the guy bought me the drink at the club, I got acquainted with his circle of friends. I would be with him. We'd go over here and do that and go out to dinner and all the things you do. And one weekend, we took a long weekend and went to the [horse] races in Arkansas. Hot Springs is that down there? I can't think of which Springs it is. Anyway, we rented a Winnebago, and there's about eight or nine of us in this Winnebago. So we drove down to Eureka Springs. 18 �Toby Jenkins: Hot Springs. Warren Duvall: Hot Springs. So we drove down there. Toby Jenkins: To the horse races. Warren Duvall: Yeah, spent the weekend at horse races and things. So that's how I got acquainted with the gay people and going to parties and going out and so forth. Toby Jenkins: But when did you get involved with, like I know we have this picture here, you're in the Follies. When did you begin to get involved with the gay community's response to people with AIDS and your caregiving? Warren Duvall: Well, once I read that article, I'd be concerned about my own health, you know? Which is, like I say, when I decided I needed to settle down with one person, so, and Roger came along and I settled down with him. So, a year or so later, might have been two years, we'd been together for some time. This guy showed up that was a past friend of his in Oklahoma City and he was a scrub tech that had come up to work with one of the doctors that worked at Doctors Hospital, a plastic surgeon. But anyway, we got acquainted with him. He was an old friend of Roger's and he got really sick. And we went up to see him and his mother was there and he was from Ardmore originally. So, he was in the latter stages, you know, his skin and bones and she had had problems with so-called his friends taking things from his apartment and stuff like that. And so, she gave us the 9th degree and then when she figured out that, you know, we were coming to visit him, his friends, she was very happy that we were there. And so, we would spend some time with him and, you know, he was at the end, and said he had diarrhea all the time. And like I say, he was skin and bones. And I would clean him up, you know, because I'm a medical person, you know, you gotta keep cleaning people up. He didn't survive more than a week from the first time we went in to see him, I don't think. And then, they took him, so he was, I guess he was at Hillcrest. They took him to the old Moore's facility on 14th and Peoria, somewhere around there. Well. The funeral home. The funeral home. After he died. Well, the big funeral home is south of the cemetery off of Memorial. They were used to taking care of AIDS patients. They were scared to death. They took him and put him in a garage out back when his family came to see his body. Then they had to drag him back in. But that's how scared they were. He had AIDS, they stuck him out there, butt naked with the sheet over him. So, we went through all that rigamarole and everything with his family and him. So, that was a good introduction. That's when we went down and joined SHANTI. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and tell us what SHANTI was. Warren Duvall: Well, you were assigned an AIDS buddy. Of course, we were a couple, so we were doing it together and we went through the training program. That's when I met David Parsons. He was going through the, he had just started out. I can remember David, I can remember distinctly, we're sitting there in this classroom setting with just 19 �the two of us right then, and then David walks in, real friendly, how are you, gets his chair, drags it right up in front of us, and... yadda. He was going through, or he was starting one, I think. I think he was starting one because, anyway, so that's how we met David. So, I knew David off and on, over time, and got better and better acquainted with the times. So, we got assigned this guy, and then we split up. Uh, and thenToby Jenkins: You and Roger ended your relationship. Warren Duvall: We did pre-Christmas in 91. Anyway, so, you know, we started taking this guy out and doing things with him and everything, and then we split up. Roger stayed here for a while, and then he moved to Oklahoma City with this little nelly guy. I'm like, Roger always thought he was butch and everything. He got caught in drag driving, and they took him to the hospital, and his parents came in, and he was in the emergency room in drag. Toby Jenkins: But So you had the AIDS patient and Roger and you had split up, so did you continue to get more involved in SHANTI? Warren Duvall: Well, SHANTI had gone by the wayside pretty much, because, you know, one person couldn't handle an AIDS patient by themselves, so they came up with—what's that called? Toby Jenkins: RAIN [Regional AIDS Interfaith Network}. Warren Duvall: Okay. Anyway, that took over. I continued—Roger and I split up, but I continued to— Toby Jenkins: Be a part of the RAIN team. Warren Duvall: To be a part of this guy. Toby Jenkins: This patient. Warren Duvall: This patient, yeah, and Roger moved off to Oklahoma City. Toby Jenkins: So what was it like in those days? You're doing the RAIN team, and you're a medical— Warren Duvall: No, I'm not doing the RAIN team. I didn't even join it. But I was still taking care of this guy Toby Jenkins: So the community—you were a medical professional, so you were seeing it from a different angle. And then you were seeing the community's organization. We've had multiple people who've interviewed and talked about that period. It was a difficult time, because people, as you said, you'd be diagnosed, and then you would be gone quickly. There was no treatment to save your life, and yet some people would get sick, and they would survive and still would be living with it, you know, 30, 40 years later. What was the mood in the community, and you as a medical professional, what was it like? I mean, was it— 20 �Warren Duvall: Well, it was very cautious. People became much more concerned and cautious about their sexual habits. Toby Jenkins: Right. So it transformed the communities. Warren Duvall: It definitely transformed the community. You still, I mean, you still socialized and so forth. But the worst thing was you would have, let's say, you'd have a social friend that came down with it and there would be no time until they were gone. So you went through that over and over and over and over and over. Toby Jenkins: How many funerals do you think you went to during the time of the pandemic? Warren Duvall: Probably a dozen. Toby Jenkins: Of close friends who died? Warren Duvall: Socialized friends. I never had a really super close friend until much later. I had a friend that came down with it much later after they were starting to have some successful treatments. Toby Jenkins: We've talked about this. You've talked about how you liked to dance and things like that. Were you involved in what we call the Follies and some of the fundraising efforts? Warren Duvall: I was in the, Roger and I, in the picture. We did the Follies the first two years, did that dance routine with that group there. I think it was almost verbatim, there was only one or two that weren't in that picture that was in the first year. Then I stayed active with Linda and them, but I didn't do any kind of active work on stage with them until her final year, the 10th year, and of course, Roger was long gone by then. Toby Jenkins: What were the Follies? It was an annual fundraising event for those living with HIV and AIDS. Linda started it. Toby Jenkins: Linda Stevens? Warren Duvall: Linda Stevens. Toby Jenkins: Who's recently deceased. Warren Duvall: I didn't know that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. We just lost her in the last— It's been almost three months now. Warren Duvall: Oh, man. I wanted to get to see her. I went to their house one time to knock on the door, but nobody came. Man, I knew she was in really bad health, but I didn't know that. Toby Jenkins: You talked about you being involved with some other affinity groups, community organizations. You mentioned you were part of the Drillers Bears. Was this a socialization group for men who identified as bears? Warren Duvall: Yes. 21 �Toby Jenkins: Tell us kind of what a bear is. Because you've talked about this a lot in your interview about the flamboyant, effeminate, all the different— Warren Duvall: Right. To me, Roger and I's first introduction to it was when we were on vacation in Florida, and we were in Orlando and there was a gay hotel there in Orlando [Parliament House], kind of like the one in Oklahoma City. So we went there. Anyway, there's this group of big guys, big burly guys, and they were in this bar that was next to the hotel, and I think it was called the Blue Moon, maybe. It was kind of a Levi Leathers kind of bar. So there's all these guys in there. My conception was that a bear was a hairy man. Toby Jenkins: More masculine, more hairy, working class. Warren Duvall: Beer gut, whatever. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't the typical Hollywood depiction of slender sleeves, muscle-lift gay guys. Warren Duvall: Yeah, just the common guys. Toby Jenkins: So you became a part of that group, Drillers Bears here in Oklahoma. Warren Duvall: Well, I became part of that. That was after Roger and I split up, but the initial group in Orlando, which I think, I was told that was the first time that a group of guys had met and formed a bear group. Of course, and then it spread nationwide and worldwide in a very short period of time. So I was active in that, and then we would go to gay rodeos all over, in Oklahoma, Arkansas, and actually, Roger and I split up when I went to Arkansas, but Missouri and stuff, and then once he left, I got acquainted with Rick Poston, and he was trying to form a new gay rodeo division in Tulsa because you weren't a real close part to the OGRA, particularly. Toby Jenkins: And OGRA stands for what? Warren Duvall: Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association. Toby Jenkins : And that was basically based in Oklahoma City. Warren Duvall: Yeah, it was statewide. Toby Jenkins: And so when you say gay rodeo, for our viewers, explain what that means, gay rodeo. Warren Duvall: A gay rodeo, well, it was a typical rodeo version, the gays' version of a rodeo. Toby Jenkins: So people who like Country and Western music… Warren Duvall: Western living, and like to ride horses and do all the things, and there were different organizations and you were all affiliated with IGRA. 22 �Toby Jenkins: Our viewers might be familiar with the explosion of interest when you had Urban Cowboy come out and Gillies, and where country and Western were people who were not farmers or cowboys or ranchers. They dress as cowboys and go out in twostep dancing. So this is theWarren Duvall: Right, kind of a popular thing. Actually, the first time I started going back to what I grew up in, it was still in the straight bars. And then after I was going to the straight bars and dancing, I started my gay paraphernalia, up again. Then it morphed right into the gay scene real quick. So I just, I returned to my roots, still in straight life and then morphed into the gay scene. Toby Jenkins: So you weren't playing or role-playing the role of a cowboy because, for our viewers, there were gay country and western bars, and there'd be country and western bar nights, country and western nights at our clubs, but it was kind of almost like a culture where you dressed up in cowboy boots and wranglers and you looked the part, but you had never been near a horse or a rope-to-cow. Warren Duvall: Common name for it was Drugstore Cowboys. Toby Jenkins: What'd they call it? Warren Duvall: Drugstore Cowboys. Toby Jenkins: Drugstore Cowboys. But you actually were a part of the group that became, what was it called here in Tulsa, the? Warren Duvall: It was Sooner State Rodeo Association. Toby Jenkins: So it was. Warren Duvall: We were the first organization that separated from an existing state organization, the IGRA. And we were the first that split our state. Toby Jenkins: And so these organizations would have been all over the country. Warren Duvall: Yeah, they're all affiliated with the IGRA, which is International Gay Rodeo Association. So we applied for a new membership, and so that involved us going to meetings and things. I think it was probably the second annual meeting that I went to, and that was, let's see. We got accepted, not exactly sure what city we were in, but anyway, we were the first to put in to separate from, to be separate from OGRA, Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association, which it was basically, it was a state organization, but it was 90% Oklahoma City metro area. Warren Duvall: Once they accepted us, there were two or three other groups in different states that were right there wanting to put their application in. So I don't know where, then I got separated from the Sooner State Rodeo Association kind of on a political situation. Toby Jenkins: So this group came together, and one of the things they did is they hosted a yearly rodeo. Warren Duvall: Yes. 23 �Toby Jenkins: Just like you would have, which was very common in our culture here in the middle of the country. Warren Duvall: And it didn't have to be a big rodeo. It could be in somebody's barn. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and what would y'all do at the rodeo? What kind of entries would there be? Like, name off the different things. Warren Duvall: Oh, well, calf roping. Toby Jenkins: Barrel racing. Warren Duvall: Bulldogging, barrel racing, and there's another rehab pole, line of poles. You didn't do this in the straight. You need to zigzag through them. I can't remember that term. They had bull riding, horseback, bareback, saddleback, and then they did more kinky, campy things, just fun things. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, they'd have drag queens perform. Warren Duvall: Yeah, they had, what do we use the goat for? You had to tie a ribbon on the goat or something. But anyway, there were fun things to do, but the other was semiserious. The livestock class of livestock we did, it's about university-type stock. Maybe you'd say high school and university. That's probably on the same level. There's not many high schools, but there are high schools in Oklahoma that have a rodeo program. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so you would have these big rodeos that would be a full-blown rodeo, but it would be imprinted with being LGBT proud, being out and proud. So for our viewers, it must have meant a lot to you to be able to return to your childhood and your experiences and blend those two together. Warren Duvall: Back when we were just a little kid... the rodeo in Fort Smith every year, which was a big thing. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I will say this. I want to make sure our viewers are aware of this. This was an extremely successful, what I would call community crossover. Every gay rodeo that I personally attended- and I've been to Oklahoma City, I've been to them in Wyoming, Texas- half the crowd is straight. Yeah, it was a very good environment for people outside of the community. Allies like these gay cowboys would have their families there and you allowed straight people to enter the competitions. Warren Duvall: As I remember right there weren't any restrictions on it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, it was a very good way for people to mix with the community and get to know us. Did you enjoy being a part of that? Warren Duvall: Very much so, yeah, I was very active and held health officer positions and then one year I was a rodeo coach. I was a rodeo director, which was the first rodeo we had here which actually was sponsored by the OGRA. And I had told you earlier that Rick and his boyfriend at the time started putting this Sooner State Rodeo Association together. So since we were working to separate and since Rick got that in Tulsa from his membership and officer in the OGRA in Oklahoma City, they were not happy with him 24 �but he'd already signed up and everything. Our first rodeo here was sponsored by the OGRA but the Sooner State did 90% of the involvement in putting it together and so forth. They might disagree with that percentage. But even before we became an active, accepted member in the IGRA, we put the rodeo on- I think that was 2003,, maybe 2002.. Toby Jenkins: And hosted the international here in Tulsa. So the International Gay Rodeo Association came here in Tulsa and your Sooner State Rodeo as a part of the Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association. Y'all served as the host. Warren Duvall: Yeah, well, OGRA served as the host, but the majority of the staff came from the Sooner State. Toby Jenkins: People came from all over the country, didn't they? Warren Duvall: Yes, right, and it was a three-day event. Toby Jenkins: When did you get involved with Oklahomans for Equality? I mean, I know, would you have cowboys and horses in the pride parade? I mean, was this something? Warren Duvall: Yeah, sometimes, yeah, and we put on a float every year, back when I was active in it. And, yeah, I think I remember some people were. .. Toby Jenkins: And when did you get connected to this Oklahomans for Equality year at the Equality Center? Warren Duvall: Probably not until I, really not until I came back in 2019, just before COVID. I came back at the end of October and by early 2020. Toby Jenkins: Because you had gone home and lived on the farm for a while… Warren Duvall: Right, yeah, for 13 years now my mother had died, and my brother, who had a home on the farm. My mother had given him three acres to build him a house. He was in bad health too. He started early in life with cardiac problems. He had a bypass at age 40 or 42. But anyway, she had died in April of 2004, and he died in May of 2005.. So my oldest brother and my sister- there's four of us, two boys and then my sister, and I was the youngest, and I was nine years younger than our oldest brother. Toby Jenkins: So we're kind of coming towards the end, so I just want to, so you move back to Tulsa and then you begin to get involved here at the Equality Center. Warren Duvall: With the two senior citizen organizations. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Prime Timers. Warren Duvall: And SAGE, which we got more into. Toby Jenkins: For our viewers, kind of tell us what Prime Timers is, what kind of organization is it for? Warren Duvall: Prime Timers is an organization for gay, bisexual men. 25 �Toby Jenkins: Older. Warren Duvall: 50 and older, typically. If you were a partner of someone and you were much younger, you could be a member because of your relationship to your partner that was a member of the group. Toby Jenkins: And then the SAGE, it was called, which is Services Advocacy for Gay Elders, what SAGE stands for. But eventually, SAGE's program began to be called the OkEq Seniors Program, and so you began to get involved in that. Now, earlier in our time together, you talked about David Parsons, who you first met at a training session, with SHANTI, where you're gonna take care of people living with HIV-AIDS. So he's been your friend all of these years. Warren Duvall: Yeah, and we've gotten closer and closer after Roger and I split up. I think Roger and I used to have a Christmas party every year, and I think after we met David, I think he came to a couple of those. This was before his partner Al. But anyway, Roger and I had bought a condo out on 51st between Memorial and Mingo. It's called Idlewild II. Toby Jenkins: Well, you've been connected with David Parsons all of these years. Warren Duvall: Roger and I split up. I got left with the condo because he wanted to sell it right away and it was worth, it priced for 15,000 less than what it was. And I said, well, I'm not gonna take that loss. So I ended up taking over the whole thing, which put me in a financial bind until I sold it. So, early on, I had moved downtown when I had come out and actually met another married man and had a short affair with him. That's when I pulled the floor off of having any kind of relationships with married men. Not a good thing. Because they just don't, they don't work out basically because they're doing a double life and you're kind of always the secondary part of that relationship. Well, that was my experience with it and most people that I've talked to, same thing. Toby Jenkins: So you were getting involved with the seniors program here and you and David, you'd bring David to the program. Warren Duvall: Yes, well, when I sold the condo, I moved just off of downtown on 17th and Carson. You know, what I call the Jetson building. We were on the south side of the street behind the Mansion. In fact, the duplex I was in was owned by the owner of the Mansion, what I call that law firm that had that Mansion back then. So I sold the condo and lived there for four or five years and that's when mom died. And my brother was, I had just moved back to the farm. Well, the reason I did that was because I became physically unable to keep my job when I ruptured my L5-S1 and I'd already had my first hip surgery and had ruptured my neck, moving a patient. So I had so many medical things going on with me and it just became too hard for me to work and do my job properly and everything. So I wound up, initially I planned on semi-retiring at 57 and I wound up retiring at 57 because of my physical injury. So, I was just a few blocks from David and Al. So, you know, we intermingled and it was over because, you know, they had, after he met Al, you know, they had gatherings at their house and dinners and parties and things like that. So, we came closer and closer and then I moved off for 13 years. And when I came back, which was the end of 26 �October, 2019, I had called David and I would come up and we'd go out to dinner when I was on the farm. And I'd come up and go to doctor's appointments up here. I would get in touch with them and, you know, we'd go to eat and sometimes I spent the weekend here. So, we became pretty close before, in fact, I was at David and Al's house when I got the call that my mother had died. So, we became good friends. Some of my friends came down when I first moved to the farm. Some of them came down and about five or six of them came down to see, you know, where I was living and what was going on down there. David came, I don't know if Al came or not, probably so, they got a big kick, because they wanted me to show them around the country side. And like I said, as a crow flies, I was a mile from the river, but I was about three miles from it to get to it from either the upper side of the dam or below the dam, which was Locking Dam 14 on the natural part of the Arkansas down there. So, we had about, well, we had about 90 acres of farmland. 75 or so of it was good, productive farming land where you grew different crops. Typically, over the years it changed, but in recent years, pretty much in that part of Oklahoma you grew corn one year, next year you put in winter wheat and when the winter wheat came off, you combined that and then you put in soybeans. So, you had three crops in two years. That's what it was, all the, it was already that when I moved. Toby Jenkins: And so, these boys would come down here to see that. Warren Duvall: So, I'd take them down into the corn field and you go down this road, it's actually an extension of the county road, but the county didn't take care of it anymore and we were on one side and there's another owner on the other side of this road. But, we got down to a 90 degree turn and they had just put up street signs out in the country down there and there was a street sign in the corner of the corn field. They got the biggest kick out of it. They couldn't believe that there was a, of course, it didn't take long for them. .. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that's called urban sprawl, you know. So, I know that you, and we're gonna wrap this up, you, I know you would, you and David would come to Sage because your good friend, he was diagnosed with dementia and for several years, you were his ride or die. You took him to Prime Timers. Made him. Took him everywhere I went. And allowed him to be able to continue to participate. Warren Duvall: Right, be active. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and so, I was always so impressed with that. Could you maybe speak to that? Why did you feel that was important? Warren Duvall: Well, when I came back, I initially called him and he was okay then and then COVID came along and I didn't, basically, I only had one friend that we spent, you know, in contact and together but I didn't really call anybody during that first year or so. And so, when I called him back after COVID, I left a message and then I got a message from him and he seemed very excited to talk to me, you know. When I got the message, I called him back and he proceeded to tell me that he had had this, as David said, I 27 �drank a quarter of wine one night and went to bed and the next morning, I couldn't get out of bed. Couldn't do anything. And he thought it was all to do with the quart of wine. And I said, well, that and many others helped you get to where you are now. But he told me that the doctors had told him that he had Alzheimer's, dementia, Alzheimer's is another form of dementia. But they specifically said, I, observing him in the beginning, I didn't really think he had, because it gets misdiagnosed a lot, Alzheimer's gets diagnosed when somebody's got another form of dementia. He could no longer drive, he couldn't even ride a bicycle, and he had limitations, but he still had a brain, and he walked daily, walked with his dogs, and then he lost a dog, and he walked with his other dog. So he was just at home all the time, Al's working, so he's, you know, and he can't go places because he can't drive anymore. So I started taking him with me and coming down here and we joined up. I was getting ready to join when COVID came along and he didn't join. After it became where we could get out and get around again is when I came down and joined and brought David down. So I took him to all the meetings and I took him out to eat a lot. I took him down all the trips that I would take down to the farm and had a couple of doctors down in the Fort Smith area that I like so well, like my dermatologist. I go down there. Toby Jenkins: So you kept him active. Warren Duvall: So I kept him busy, and, you know, that was good for me too, because I had not made really good contact with my old friends. I don't know if they're all dead or moved away or what, but I just haven't been able to, just, besides David and Al, there's only one other couple that I've had anything to do with and they seem to be content with retiring and sitting at home. Toby Jenkins: And recently, we lost David. He died. And, um... Warren Duvall: Within the past year, he'd gotten to the point that he really couldn't communicate. You could talk to him and he might, you might ask him something and he would answer you or tell you that he didn't know. Toby Jenkins: So I've always been grateful that you kept him involved. Warren Duvall: As long as I could to keep him involved. Toby Jenkins: I just wonder, as we finish up, this will be my last question for you. You've lived a long life. You've served your country. You've had an active career. You've lived in multiple places. You saw the world. You've lived in other countries. Warren Duvall: Been to the gay games. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so, which is like the gay Olympics. But you saw things change over the last 30 or 40 years. Do you have a message for younger people or people who come after us? Do you have a message for the future? 28 �Warren Duvall: Be active as you can. Be aware that the political situation in this country is bad and gonna get worse for the LGBTQ group. I mean, they've already singled out the trans, you know. That's just the first step. If the public doesn't succeed in getting this group out of the White House and the Senate and Congress and the judges, I mean, it's just, never in my life would I ever assume that that would happen in the United States. It just never entered my mind. It concerns me greatly. So my advice is you fight it and you fight it and you never give up. Never give up. For many of us, it took a lot to come out and it was a lot. Some gay people knew all their life that they were gay. Now, I can look back and know that I always was, but I didn't know that. I didn't know what gay was for many years. Probably first started getting some conception of it in high school. I remember this group of future farmers. We'd gone into Fort Smith. We were probably trying to do some fundraisings or something. And this one guy, I don't know how they got on the subject, blowjobs, this one guy. He said, well, you know, these homosexuals, and he probably said faggots. He says, you know, their sexual organs are in their throat and that's why they blow each other on that. And I'm like, oh my God. He was a weird son of a bitch. Toby Jenkins: But that's the homophobic culture we live in. Warren Duvall: My first thought was, the sexual organs in my throat? Toby Jenkins: Well, this has been very helpful and very informative. And thank you so much for your service. Warren Duvall: And I have one other person I want to talk about briefly. Bart Elwell. He's a guy about my size. Pretty bald, wore a beard a lot. He had a degree in clothing design. He specialized initially in children's clothing. He was from the Oklahoma City area. He grew up in Moore. And I met him much later in life. This is after Roger and I had split up. And I'd seen him at the Silver Star dancing. He was a good dancer. But anyway, I met him again when we were forming the Driller Bears. He came to that, and we started talking, and getting acquainted, and became really close friends. And he came down with HIV late. I mean, he came down with two, three years after we'd gotten acquainted and been really good friends. So eventually, he came down with it. And I won't go into any detail. And just that he became positive. He worked just all kinds of fabric. And he never could get after his initial job. He came to town for this little children's clothing factory. That's how he came here. And then it got closed down, and couldn't compete with the international market, I guess. But we became closer and closer. He's the only one that would come down and spend the weekend with me, all the 13 years I was on the farm, after the initial guys came down the first couple weeks I was there. But he started, oh, about my last two or three years on the farm. So prior to October of 1919, he was a Christmas baby. My dad was born on Christmas Eve, and I was born on December 20th. And my half-brother was born on December 10th, I think. Lots of friends and had other friends and family that were December babies. 29 �I tried to get in contact with him over the Christmas holidays and didn't hear from him. Sent him a birthday card, didn't hear from him. And so finally, I got a call from him. I think it was probably early January of, I don't know how many years ago that was, about four or five. Anyway, he proceeded to tell me, oh, last year that I would come up and I'd go out to lunch with him, he kept complaining about stomach problems. He couldn't keep food down. He couldn't eat, but just a little bit, blah, blah, blah. And this went on, and they did tests on him and everything. And finally, they told him on Christmas Eve of that year, I'll say 2020, I'm trying to think, was that before? No, he died before I moved up here, I think, the disease was pancreatic cancer. Well, by the time they diagnosed it, it was almost already stage four. From the time he called me after, I didn't hear him remember the Christmas holiday, they told him the day before Christmas that he had it. So he went down to his family for Christmas Day to tell them that he had pancreatic cancer. But anyway, he went down like a rock. The time he called me and the time I came up the very next time, he was just, when I went to pick him up, he was just skin and bones. Didn't have a hair on his head because he was in chemo and everything. He didn't have a hair on his body. Wasn't very hairy anyway, he had a nice beard. But I wouldn't have known him. You know, you could have told me he's gonna be coming down the sidewalk here in 30 minutes and he could have walked right by me and I wouldn't have known it was him. That's how much he was just skin and bones. And he had a long-term relationship lover who was also HIV positive from down in the Dallas metro area. They were together, that long distance relationship for about the last four or five years of his life or more, maybe. But anyway, it was just a shock Okay, so he was never financially real secure because of his career and trying to stay in and so forth. But anyway, he wound up kind of being the office manager of an independent children's clothing store that was out at 81st and Harvard in that little shopping center and it's on the southwest corner. So he worked there the last few years. He gave me this picture of a cowboy that he had picked up at a garage sale or something and it was in this horrible frame. And this cowboy's bare-chested. He's got his saddle over his shoulder. Really good picture, watercolor. He said, I want you to have this because I know you'll do something good with it. So it's a great picture. I had it professionally framed and everything. Spent $300 just getting it framed. I was gonna take it to him so he could see what I did with it one weekend. And then I had to back out. The next weekend, by the time we got there, his lover had called me to say he had died. I hated it he never got to see it because he would have been so happy and proud that he gave that to me. Toby Jenkins: And that beautiful story is a reminder…. Warren Duvall: One of my very best friends ever and I've had lots of good friends over the years. Toby Jenkins: We can't delay, we can't put off. We gotta seize the moment and see the moment. All right. Warren Duvall: Tomorrow may be too late. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Well, thank you so much. Warren Duvall: Thank you. Toby Jenkins: This has been beautiful. We've covered areas that we've never covered. We talked about things that I don't think we've ever talked about in any other interviews. Warren Duvall: I could talk to you for two weeks. Warren Duvall: I mean, I've had an interesting life and amazing experience. Today I came through it. Toby Jenkins: This has been Warren Duvall on February the 10th, 2026. Warren Duvall: Thank you very much. Toby Jenkins: Thank you. Addendum: 1989 Follies Review Cast. Follies was a fundraiser for AIDS Programs. Warren is second from the right. 31 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Warren Duvall Interview Subject The topic of the resource Warren Duvall Oral History Project Interview from February 10, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Warren Duvall, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 10, 2026 Description An account of the resource This interview with Warren explores his life story, from growing up on a family farm in Oklahoma to his military service and his journey as a gay man. Warren shares personal insights into his experiences with sexuality, military service during Vietnam, and navigating life in Oklahoma and Florida. This interview provides a deep insight into the life experiences of a long-time LGBTQ+ community member, covering personal stories, community involvement, and the evolution of LGBTQ+ rights and health issues over decades. <strong>Video available for on-site research at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center.</strong> 2026 activism AIDS available at Center bear clubs coming out community gay rodeo healthcare HIV/AIDs interview LGBT history military OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript seniors Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa video Vietnam Warren Duvall https://history.okeq.org/files/original/e5058728974a0f195bd8900e5e7c92a9.jpg 200a294d14881d81dd06ce84750b1c0f https://history.okeq.org/files/original/0dd0cb24915e78deb62c6fbaf1d3e07d.pdf 20d176b1914b1b1833c44428a7b6656c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview - Feb. 19, 2026 Transcript PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Robert (Bob) Odle Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins (and Dennis Neill) Date: February 19, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, March 13, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Robert (Bob) Odle Summary This interview with Bob Odle offers a deep dive into his life as a gay man, theater professional, and community advocate. Covering his personal journey, the impact of historical events, and insights into Tulsa's cultural scene, it provides valuable lessons on resilience, identity, and activism. Keywords LGBTQ history, theater, Tulsa, activism, personal story, AIDS, gay community, cultural history Key Topics    Bob Odle's personal history and identity The impact of historical events like JFK's assassination and AIDS crisis The development of theater and LGBTQ community in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background of Bob Odle 02:57 Early Life and Education 05:59 College Experience and Sexual Orientation 08:58 Military Draft and Sexual Identity 2 �11:50 Teaching Career and Coming Out 14:47 Theater Involvement and Gay Community Connections 17:48 Reflections on the LGBTQ+ Experience 20:57 Teaching Philosophy and Curriculum Development 23:56 Theater Companies and Professional Acting 39:52 Theatre Roots and Early Involvement 41:12 Memorable Performances and Traditions 43:39 The Birth of World Action Singers 48:06 The Evolution of Theatre Spaces in Tulsa 53:00 Theater Community Support and Changes 56:39 The Lynn Riggs Theater and Community Engagement 01:02:33 Impact of the Pandemic on Theatre 01:05:27 Personal Loss and Community Involvement 01:08:20 Political Climate and Advocacy 01:10:58 Concerns for Arts and Rights 01:20:21 A Message for Future Generations Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview Feb 19, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today is February the 19th, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma, in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library, and we are doing archival work and interview today, and joining me for the interview is Amanda Thompson, our archivist and the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Dennis Neill. This is Toby Jenkins. Today, viewers, we are very fortunate to have a very special guest. Tell us your name and your date of birth and your address. Bob Odle: Bob Odle, Robert Odle. Date of birth is May 15th, 1945. Bob Odle: My address is XXX in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much. We're here today, and I want us to tell...you've had such an interesting life, and I want to make sure we get everything, and we appreciate our viewers' interest in this, and so this is...we're going to give you some history that you might have a little trouble finding, so we're going to put it in one place where our viewers can find this information. Do you want me to call you Bob or Robert? Bob Odle: Bob. Everybody calls me Bob, except my sixth-grade art teacher. Toby Jenkins: What are your pronouns? How do you identify your gender? Bob Odle: Mr. He. Toby Jenkins: So, you identify as male? Bob Odle: Yes. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, and could you just, for our time together, we're gonna...how do you identify in your sexual orientation, your...how do you identify? Bob Odle: Well, I'm queer as a $3 bill. Toby Jenkins: Okay, good. So, it's good to know, and for our historical people, that was a phrase we used a lot when we were growing up as kids. Bob Odle: Well, I just heard about the origin of the $3 bill just within the past week. During this Civil War, some of the southern states, as I recall, didn't have really enough gold, and so they issued those $3 bills, or maybe it was the American Revolution. I don't remember, but it was some revolutionaries, and they issued worthless money, and it was $3 bills. Toby Jenkins: So, that's why we have it. That's why they always used it on us. Where were you born? Bob Odle: I was born in Kansas City, Missouri. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Bob Odle: Research Hospital. Toby Jenkins: Is your family from Kansas City, Missouri? Bob Odle: Most of my...the Bell side of the family is from Missouri. My four-times greatgrandmother came to Missouri with Daniel and Nathan Boone. Nathan Boone is buried not far from where she's buried, and so most of my relatives are there. The...and the Rileys are there, once they came to this country. The Odles are scattered around western part of Virginia. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Now, when you say she's buried up in Missouri, is she buried near Boone's Lick? (Editor’s note Boone's Lick is the historical site where Daniel Boone’s sons settled around Franklin Missouri.) Bob Odle: Oh, no, that's much farther north. Nathan Boone is much closer to Springfield, and it's a little country cemetery that is largely a family cemetery. I mean, I'm related by blood or marriage to most of the people who are in that cemetery, so she's buried there where the other Bells and the Rileys are. Toby Jenkins: And so you were...your family was in Kansas City at this time, or...? Bob Odle: Yes, they had moved...my grandmother and grandfather had moved to Kansas City, and I think most of my...all of my aunts and uncles were born in Kansas City, and my mother was born there, and...and so that's...that's where I was born. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you grow up there? I mean, was that what you spent your childhood? Bob Odle: Yes. I went to Munger Elementary School, which was named after a farmer who donated that land to the school district, and it was a little eight-room, four downstairs and four 4 �upstairs schoolhouse with a prefab outside for the 7th and 8th grades, and 6th and 7th grades. And so I went to Munger for the first three years, and then North Kansas City had a bond issue, and they built some new schools because that area of Kansas City was growing. They built right across the street from Munger, they built Oak Ridge and just a few blocks from us they built Maplewood. I went to Maplewood for the fourth and fifth grades and then my mother remarried and we moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma where I went to Luther Burbank for one year. TPS has recently sold that building. And then I went to Bell Junior High for two and a half years and then we moved over to 27th Street and I finished the ninth grade and went through high school at Nathan Hale and then got a scholarship to the University of Tulsa. I applied various places but TU gave me a scholarship that paid half of my tuition which was $600 a year. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been that you graduated? Bob Odle: I graduated from Nathan Hale in 63 and from TU in 67. Toby Jenkins: And how new was Nathan Hale? Was it a pretty new high school? Bob Odle: It was brand new that first year I went there. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what your graduating class, how many were in your graduating class? Bob Odle: I contend there were 450 but some people, some members of my class say there were fewer than that. I don't know, I haven't counted the pictures in the yearbook. I keep thinking I must do that and I haven't. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, by the 70s it was up in the 2000s. Bob Odle: Yes, they added a wing. Toby Jenkins: But I think today Nathan Hale's graduating class is about 200. Bob Odle: Well, yeah, they added classrooms to the building. Quite a few classrooms after I graduated. Toby Jenkins: So was your family glad that you were going to school in Tulsa instead of getting accepted someplace else? Bob Odle: Well, they were glad I got a scholarship which was $300 which paid half of my tuition. And my books altogether, my books cost less than $100. Toby Jenkins: I don't think I ever paid $100. What did you study at TU? Bob Odle: I was a theater major. Toby Jenkins: And so this would have been in 1963 when you graduated. What was going on in our country at that time? I mean this was shortly after Kennedy had been assassinated. 5 �Bob Odle: No, it was when he was assassinated. That was a sad day that I remember that day. And the several days afterwards when we had no commercial TV. And Channel 2 played Handel's Largo during all of the station breaks. And we went until Monday after the funeral with no commercials on TV. And 24-hour coverage of the funeral and people visiting the White House and the Capitol. Toby Jenkins: Were you in school when y'all heard this news? Bob Odle: It was just my first time at the Baptist Student Union. They should have told me never to go back. My first time there and I went to class and a friend of mine who had a little portable radio said the president has been shot. And what's he talking about? He's crazy. And then it was during that class, I had humanities at 1 o'clock. It was during that class then that it was announced that the president was dead. I gave a friend a ride home and we listened to the radio. And the radio was covering the funeral and the death of the president. Toby Jenkins: And this would have been your freshman year? Bob Odle: It was my freshman year, yeah. It was a sad day. It was a sad several days. Couldn't believe that in the 20th century a president would be assassinated. I just couldn't believe that. Toby Jenkins: What were you studying at TU? Bob Odle: I was majoring in theater. I had a minor in English lit and a minor in education so I could get my teaching certificate. It was then, and I didn't know this until, I was so naive. I'm incredibly naive, even now. I heard after the first show that the person who played the lead and some other people were gay and, what? And so, later, I think the person who told me that had the hots for me for years. I think I later found out more and more people in the theater department, which is where I hung out, were gay and, oh, okay, I didn't know that. I had no idea. Toby Jenkins: Did you understand what that meant? Bob Odle: Oh yeah, I understood what it meant, but I just didn't know that they were gay and that there were so many. Toby Jenkins: So you were like in Gay Head Start, the theater department at TU. Did you, had you by that time, I mean, by then you're 18, adult, and you're a young male college student. Had you begin to realize about your own sexual orientation or was it? Bob Odle: Yeah, I went through a period, and I think it's not unusual, of denial. And, let's see, I was molested when I was like 12 years old, and I didn't know, I just, I didn't know anything about that. I just, it was when I was 15, I finally said, no, I don't want to do that anymore. Well, I didn't want to do it with somebody older, I wanted to do it with some of my classmates. And I remember when I was like in the seventh grade at Bell, the day we all suited up in our white tshirts and our white gym shorts and our white tennis shoes. And I walked, there were these other boys, and whoa, wow, I mean, this thrill went through me. Whoa, whoa. And so... 6 �Toby Jenkins: So you're in college, and you're in this program, and I guess it was gossip people were talking about people being gay. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Was it in college that you began to, I mean, did you have a relationship with another student, a person, or? Bob Odle: No, not really, but there was one person who was in my English class who I had seen go to the, it was the Baptist student union, that was the reason I went that one day, and I went back subsequently. I did have the hots for him, and it was, he dropped out of school, I think, after the first semester of our freshman year. And in the past year or so have found out, I suspect he was killed in Vietnam. I suspect he joined the army, that school wasn't really for him. And when he didn't show up at any of our classes, and he was no longer on campus, I did feel like my heart was broken. I mean, I really had a crush on him. Toby Jenkins: So when he left school, I mean, you didn't know where he went, and so did you quit going to the Baptist Student Union after that? Bob Odle: No, I continued to go because I knew some other people who were there. Toby Jenkins: What was TU like in those days, in the 60s? Bob Odle: We had to wear our freshman beanies for the first six weeks. I still have mine somewhere, I tried to find it for the 50th anniversary, that's when I, oh no, this was 50 years after graduation. It was red, alternate red and yellow panels with a red 67 in the front panel, and we had to wear those for the first six weeks, I mean, that was the rule. We had to go to orientation like once a week. We had to take six hours of religion. I took Old Testament history and origin and principles of Christianity. Bob Odle: Later, they reorganized and we didn't have to take any religion, and I'd already taken six hours, and so we had to go to chapel, I don't know, maybe once at least…. Toby Jenkins: A week, once a week, or once a semester? Bob Odle: No, I think once in the first six weeks. The class of 68 had blue beanies with yellow 68 on the front. That was the last class, I think, that had to wear beanies. Toby Jenkins: About how many students do you think were at TU at that time? Bob Odle: I think they've held steady at about 4,000 to 5,000. Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been at the time when Tulsa was the oil capital of the world and TU was known as the top geology, or what am I saying? Petroleum engineer. Yeah, petroleum engineer. 7 �Bob Odle: There was one guy in the theater department who was from Egypt and he was in theater, but he, I think, came for petroleum engineering, which is why a lot of people were there from other states. Toby Jenkins: So you talked about the military and the Vietnam War. Tell us about that. Were there lots of students who were leaving? Bob Odle: I was not aware of any at that time because I graduated in 67, so the buildup, I think, started in 65, but I was not... We had student deferments as long as we were in school. Toby Jenkins: Were you in the military? Bob Odle: No, never. They didn't want me because I was gay. Toby Jenkins: You remember your draft number? Were you subject to a potential call-up? Bob Odle: I don't remember that. That's been so long ago. Toby Jenkins: So they didn't want you because you were gay. Tell us about that. I mean, by then, you were acknowledging…? Bob Odle: Well, I remember they had me come in and talk. There was a sergeant who was in charge of all of the physical examination and whatnot and he had me talk to a captain who asked me if I was sure I was gay, if I was just saying that. He said, I've always remembered, he said, you know this will go on your permanent record. Toby Jenkins: So you actually had to fill out a form that said that? Bob Odle: Yes. That was when... It was like an alumni meeting. All the guys I knew from high school were on the same bus, and some friends from junior high who went to Will Rogers were on the same bus going to Oklahoma City. That was part of what we did that day, was we had to sit down and fill out these forms about what diseases we'd had and if we had homosexual tendencies. So we had to actually fill out a form. Toby Jenkins: You felt like you needed to be honest? Bob Odle: Well, yeah, because I was going to go to law school, and I did go to law school for a while. So I thought, well, I can't lie on this. I think there was a small print that said it was a federal crime or something, and so I didn't want to lie. Toby Jenkins: So the captain tried to talk you out of it, is what you're saying? Bob Odle: He wanted to make sure that I wasn't just... Because a friend of mine said, I remember a party and he was talking about how... He had a high lottery number, so he wasn't chosen, but he said he had the choice of going to Canada or he could queer out. So apparently there were other people who were signing, yeah, they were gay. They had homosexual tendencies or whatever the wording changed to, and so apparently they had encountered that before, people lying about being gay. 8 �Toby Jenkins: This is fascinating to me. I don't know that I've ever had anybody talk about this. I don't know if I've ever interviewed somebody and them talk about the details of that and the possibility that the military wanted to make sure you weren't just using something. So I'm just curious, were you in a room with several people when you were asked this, or was it more of a private discussion? Bob Odle: Well, there was a big classroom with student desks for us to fill out the form, but then the sergeant... I was in a room, an office with the sergeant and a couple other non-coms. He said it would be better to get rid of me then than to go ahead and have me sworn in and have me booted out of the military for being gay. But he decided for some odd reason to have me talk to this, I guess, doctor who was a captain. I mean, I have no idea. They just know he was a captain and they sent me into his office for him to question me about that. Toby Jenkins: So you were able to avoid military service. Do you remember, I mean, you were a college student during these days. I don't know necessarily when… Bob Odle: Well, this was after I graduated that I got that. And it was after I'd taught for a year, too. But teachers had deferments. I mean, I was originally taken after I graduated with this busload of alumni, people I'd known in high school. And then the school board, I got a job teaching and the school board appealed that. And they had just gotten this draft board… I went before these old men. Toby Jenkins: Where were you teaching? Bob Odle: At Central High School, which was downtown. Toby Jenkins: The major campus that's still down there today. Bob Odle: Yeah, PSO owns it now, and AEP. And they had gotten something from Washington that they should give teachers who were teaching deferments or something like that. But I was drafted in the meantime. And so the public schools protested. But it wasn't that I got out of the military. The military didn't want me. Toby Jenkins: Very, very interesting. So well said. Bob Odle: Well, I know of other gay people who've had military experience. Well, and I have one friend who used to live in Tulsa, who lives somewhere in Dallas, I think, now. He was booted out of the Navy and was not happy with being booted out. I mean, there are a lot of gays who want to serve their country and be in the military. But we were not allowed to. And those who were drafted—and I have a friend who was investigated by the Naval Intelligence for a while. They trailed him. And I don't know if he was court-martialed or not. He stayed in the Navy for years and retired as a lieutenant commander. Some of his friends at his funeral said he would have been a commander had there not been that investigation. But he would sometimes go into bathhouses in San Diego or San Francisco in order to have the people who were tailing him leave him alone. 9 �Toby Jenkins: To make them have to follow him in there? Bob Odle: They wouldn't follow him in there. Toby Jenkins: So you said you finished TU and then you started teaching. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And you had to get a teacher's certificate. Now, I'm just curious, you're teaching—what did you teach at Central High School? Bob Odle: Competitive speech and drama. Toby Jenkins: So you would have probably been my instructor because that's the kind of stuff I was in in high school. So you were teaching…This would have had you probably 21, 22? Bob Odle: I was just barely 22 when I started teaching. And I taught for four years. My goal was to teach for four years, save some money, and go to law school full-time. I went to law school part-time, but I quit to go full-time, and that was about the time we started doing theater. And I thought, well really, I'd rather be an actor than be an attorney. And so I dropped out of law school. My mother was not happy with it. She got over that eventually. Toby Jenkins: So you're a young adult. Had you begun to have romantic relationships with men, or had you connected to the gay community? I mean, you were teaching school. Bob Odle: Well, I had a lot of friends who, being in theater, I had a lot of friends who were gay, and pretty much openly gay. And so, you know, I would think about that, you know. And eventually, after I was doing theater, and eventually, after years went by, because I was in a state of denial. I mean, I lived with a woman for a while. And... But it was because I was in a state of denial, which is not uncommon, I think, and so eventually when we broke up, because it was not destined to be, she lives with her second husband in South Carolina, I think, and I contact her periodically, or she contacts me. But I didn't really have, I still was so closeted. A lot of people probably knew, but it was sometime then, sometime around 1980, I think, that is after we moved into the Brook Theater in 79, it was about 1980 that I decided to go to, well I had been to, I mentioned this at the breakfast the other day, I had been to Saddle Tramps in Oklahoma City years before. I had no idea it was a gay bar. I mean, when I was, I had done Tea House of the August Moon in Tulsa, and then I was asked to join the touring company in Oklahoma City. So I went down to Oklahoma City, and friends put me on a bus, and I went down there, and I saw this limousine parked across from the bus station, and I thought, well it'd be neat if that was for me. It was! The owner of the theater had a huge Cadillac limousine, and I mean the big, stretched thing, and so he took me to the theater, and there were a couple of people in that play, that were in that cast, that were gay. And then I did another tour, and I think some people were gay, and then a lot of people I knew from the theater were gay. 10 �And a friend moved back for a short time to help us open The Brook, I think, with his boyfriend from New York, and they lived together. And so all of this was like, you know, making an impression on me. And so finally in about 1980, well I was going to tell you about Saddle Tramps. The manager of the Gaslight, we were dark on Monday nights, and so one Monday night, and every other Monday we got paid. And so it was a Monday we got paid, and so we all decided to go to dinner, and we went to the Haunted House, which you have to have reservations before they will tell you the address. It's a fabulous old mansion somewhere in northeast Oklahoma City, and they had fabulous food. And so we went there, and those who didn't have cars, because some people had their own cars, but I'd left mine, I'd taken the bus to Oklahoma City. I was in the manager's limousine with some other people, who I think back, I think at least two of them were gay, maybe three of them were gay. And so we went to the manager's house for a little while, and he lived somewhere in northeast Oklahoma City, and not far from the theater as I recall. But anyway, then we went to a bar. He decided, let's go to a bar. So well, I know the bar we'll go to, and we'll go to this bar. Well, it was Saddle Tramps. I didn't know. And it was a Monday night, so nobody was there except us and maybe a couple other people and the bartender. And I went in to use the restroom at one point, and there was a toilet sitting right in the middle of the floor, and there was a bathtub also there. And this is strange. And so I went out and I told the others, you've got to see that restroom. And so that was the first time. Then later on, somehow a friend of a good friend of mine who had been a colleague in teaching and who'd lived just two doors down from when we first moved to Tulsa, her friend was doing drag for the first time at a place called, I think, the Stage Door on Main. And so a group of us went to see him do drag for the first time, and he was not very good, but there was this person in a mini skirt, a mini dress that had flowers on it, and a bouffant wig, who did Harper Valley PTA, was fabulous. And so that was my first time. So later then, I decided to go to a gay bar, and I went to one called, I think, Caruso's, also on Main, maybe a little bit south of where Stage Door had by that time, I think, become a parking lot, as much of downtown Tulsa is. I went to Caruso's, and I went there a few times, and then I decided to branch out and try some others. And I'd heard of people going to Oklahoma City and staying at what was then called the Pepper Tree, it was the Habana, and now it's a different name, and why it's not the Habana, because it's been Habana since it opened in the 1960s. Because I went there as a school teacher, we had our speech convention at the Habana when it was a Best Western. And little did I know that right next door was Saddle Tramps. And because I had, you know, it was dark, and I was being toted around in this limousine, had no idea where I was or what was going on. And so, I heard of people going there, and so I went down there, and I discovered all of the bars in the hotel and on the Strip. And... Toby Jenkins: So during this time, I know you were an actor in the theater companies, and obviously a professional actor, you were being paid. Were you still teaching at this time? 11 �Bob Odle: No, I went back to teaching after, in 1990, I believe. I worked in theater and doing workshops in schools all over the state. And I went back to teaching. A friend of mine, because the oil companies who had given us money had moved to Houston, so they could be hit by hurricanes and flooded by hurricanes. And so a friend of mine suggested, why don't you go back and get your teaching certificate? So at his urging, I did. And so I got a job teaching. I deducted my trips to Oklahoma City for our annual convention for my income tax, because the motel, I had to have a motel while I was down there. I deducted that for my income tax. I went down there and I would always stay at the Habana, and then there were all those bars right there. Toby Jenkins: So I know that was the gay district still, I guess, today is considered that. So during this time, had you ever come out as openly gay to your other theater friends and folks? I mean, had you pretty well, you said about 1979 was when you began to connect to the gay community. Had you told other people that you were gay? Bob Odle: No, not until the friend who'd come here for the opening of The Brook went back to New York, and he'd come back Christmas to be with his parents. And so after a show, I said, why don't we go to a bar? I know a bar at 18th and Main. So we went to Renegades. And then later we went to Tim's Playroom at 11th and Lewis. And that was the most fun. That was a fun bar. Then, later in the 80s, I went to New Orleans and discovered just about all the bars in the French Quarter and some in the Marigny, and met a person who had been a student at Central High School when I was a teacher there. We went to see a play over at the Marigny Theater, which is connected with a bar and around the corner from some other bars. He died, oh, it's been several years ago, and he had heart problems. He was very intelligent, talented, and so I started making sometimes four trips per year to New Orleans. Certainly, I've gone there every year for about 30 years. When the bathhouse closed down there, I went into mourning for two years. I thought about, should I leave a bouquet of condoms and lube outside the front door? Because people leave bouquets of things. I mean, I was like, I miss that. That was a fun bathhouse. After Katrina, it was a member of the club baths, and I had a club card, and they were good at the club baths all over the country. I went to some of the others, and they were not as good as the Club New Orleans. Toby Jenkins: Were you teaching during this time? Bob Odle: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were you able to be openly gay? In the early days when you got the deferment, I know the school board was addressing their teacher's deferments. Did anybody at your school know that you had got a deferment because you told them you were gay? Bob Odle: No. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Then while you were teaching here in Oklahoma, were you openly gay? I mean, did your students know you were gay? Did your principal, your ... Bob Odle: No, not that I know of. I think some suspected, but nobody really cared. I was there to teach speech, and I was focused on that. That was my job, and I was focused on doing that, and I also had a humanities class, and I was focused on spreading this notion of the arts, all of the arts, through the ages. I put together a thing on humanities for the first two years myself until ... It took two years before I found a book that also covered Asia, because of my philosophy that we're too Eurocentric, and kids needed to know. I sandwiched into a short period of time 6,000 years of Chinese and Japanese and Indian Middle Eastern art, which is not doing it ... I mean, that should have been a separate class, but it wasn't, and so I wanted kids exposed to that. Toby Jenkins: So that was curriculum? You were writing curriculum for that? Bob Odle: Yes, I did. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What theater companies were you involved in? You talked about you were a paid actor. Bob Odle: Yeah, I worked with American Theater Company for years, and also during some down times when we didn't do many shows, I also worked with Gaslight. Toby Jenkins: Okay. How long were you involved with American Theater Company? Bob Odle: From its inception in 1970 until ... Well, I did a show 2006, 2008. For four years in a row, we did the Rocky Horror Show, the original stage musical, which is much better than the movie. I frequently think that is the case, that things on stage don't translate to film. Toby Jenkins: Live theater is better. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So how many years would that have been with American Theater Company? Forty? Bob Odle: Well, man. Bob Odle: 70 to almost, yeah, almost 40, 37 or so, I worked. I was on the board after that, for some time after that, but I was just too busy to do shows. And so, you know, but I was still affiliated with the theater, but I've not been on the board for like three years now. Toby Jenkins: What performances were you in, what shows? Bob Odle: Well, on my tombstone, which I have already bought, and it is, although I intend to be cremated and have my ashes scattered, my tombstone, which is next to my mother and stepfathers, and near my grandparents and great-grandparents and so on and so forth, yeah, that's Karl Krauss as Ebenezer Scrooge. And Karl has played that role for years and years. And 13 �so, you know, that's me as Brother Oral Love. That's one of the things on my tombstone. I had Robert, I think Robert Leonard Odle, because I'm named after both of my grandfathers. That was a thing in my family for a while after both grandfathers or grandmothers. And so I have Brother Love and Tartuffe, Captain Hook, and there's one other that I keep forgetting, but it's one of my favorite roles I ever played. But those are three of the ones. Toby Jenkins: So I know Christmas, Carol, is kind of like a Christmas tradition. Bob Odle: I know, I never, the second year we did it, one of the reviewers for one of the Tulsa papers said, this needs to be a tradition. And I thought, and well, it has become that. This is, I mean, this fall will be 50 years since Rick and I wrote that. Toby Jenkins: Well, I'll just let you know whether you are surprised that it became a tradition. In my family, I took my children to see it, and now I have grandchildren, and all of us have made it a part of our Christmas tradition. We don't go every year, but we've been multiple times. Bob Odle: I go every year. I mean, I love that story. It's a great story about giving. Dennis Neill: We spent a little more time talking about Joyce Martel and the Oral Action Singers, how that originated and your role in it and the longevity of that show. And did ATC actually own the Brook at that point in time? Bob Odle: No, we rented it or leased it, I don't remember which. But, well, Jerry Pope and Rick Averill and I, Rick always wrote the music. Jerry and I would, he would write one scene, I would write another scene and so on until we wrote the play. And it's about, it was essentially about balanced growth in Tulsa and the reason we didn't have balanced growth. And we did some stereotypical characters. And one was this religious figure, which we called in that musical, Seth Righteous. And so that sort of began it. Then a year later at Cain's, we opened and ran a month with Joyce Martel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris, Texas. I think that title was based on something that was on T, Jacques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris or something. Anyway, so, but we decided not to call it Seth Righteous, to call it Oral Love because of the combination of the double entendre there with Oral Roberts out South and, you know, and the act of sex. And so we did that at the Cain's for a month and then they decided we were too bawdy for Cain's. That was when the people who had Cain's at the time were having people do the alligator and people were actually having sex in the audience. But we were too bawdy for them. So we moved to the Inferno, which is now the location of a car wash on South Peoria. The Inferno had a big sign outside that said topless lunch from 11 until seven. It was a long lunch. You would eat a lot of food. And we went in there and, like the first day we went in there, one of the dancers named Snowball grabbed me by the crotch and led me into the bar. So we did it there for a couple of months. Then we moved to Captain's Cabin, which was at 41st and Memorial. It's where Richard De La Fonte, a hypnotist, was working most nights and he had the prime weekend nights. Then we closed the show because we were going on the first of our summer tours. 14 �We talked about it during that summer tour and we came back and performed on the roof of the Mayo parking garage for a month- the coldest September on record, I think, and then the hottest day in October- we moved to the ballroom inside upstairs and we had this huge box that was two 4x8 sheets of plywood with about that much wood in between the shelves and all of our props and some of our costumes, and it wouldn't fit in the elevator shaft. So we had to take it to the freight elevator and we had to ride up on top of the freight elevator. We had to take it down to the basement, move the thing in on top of the freight elevator, take the freight elevator up to the floor below the ballroom and open the doors and move the thing out. It was a nightmare. Dennis Neill: So, Bob, this is all in the early 80s, right? Bob Odle: This is 75. Dennis Neill: Oh, okay, so now, which show are you talking about right now? Bob Odle: Joyce Martel. Dennis Neill: I saw it when I moved to Tulsa and I moved here in 77. Bob Odle: That was, oh well, we did the best of Joyce Martel in 76. And then in 77 we were at the Crest Club at the Mayo. We did some shows in the crystal ballroom, some shows we did downstairs in theToby Jenkins : Do you remember where you saw it? Dennis Neill: I thought I saw it at the Brook, but I could be wrong about that, correct? Bob Odle: Yeah, we didn't open that. 61579, that was the code on the security, the security system. Dennis Neill: I remember you and the flaming Bible, right? Bob Odle: Yeah, well, I used that for a long time. Dennis Neill: Okay, maybe it was another show. Bob Odle: We did the best of Joyce Martel, and then we closed that. And then in 77, well, we did some shows in the Pompeian Room, which is an artificial room they put because it was a two-story lobby, but they put a floor in and had this large meeting room called the Pompeian Room and it had Roman murals all around. It was horrible. Dennis Neill: So any pushback from Oral Roberts and the university with regard to the action singers? Bob Odle: Well, not then so much. We moved to the Brook, we continued, we did the Crest Club- and I don't remember what that show was called- right offhand. Then we got this deal with the Brook and we moved in there and we converted it from a movie house to a legitimate 15 �theater and we opened in June of 79 with huge, gigantic those spotlights on Peoria and drew a lot of attention. We had the marquee out front and some friends who had seen the show were friends with a man who made all of Oral Roberts' trinkets that he gave away for a donation and he had a pretty large house out south and it was his 50th birthday and they had happy 50th birthday up on the roof in big letters, eight feet tall. I mean they were huge letters- and so they decided he had all this money and he had everything he wanted, so they would give him something he wouldn't normally get, and so they gave him Brother Oral Love as his birthday, as entertainment for his birthday party, and there was a big crowd there. Some of the provosts of ORU was there and there were some other ORU people there and there were some of the people in the audience who just loved what I was doing. There were some who stood stony faced. Then one year, I don't remember what we renamed the show, we did a new show every year, which was a nightmare to write. But we did a show and I thought, okay, I'm going to write this sermon this year. What would I do if I were totally corrupt? And, you know, so, you know, like Jesus spent time in the desert. Well, I owned a house in Palm Springs. And because that's in the desert. And I had a Mercedes-Benz because there's a Janis Joplin song, Oh Lord, won't you give me a Mercedes-Benz. So I always ended with that. And the thing is that summer, Shoals, Jerry Shoals, I think his name is, published his book about Oral Roberts, the time he had worked for Oral Roberts. And it turned out he did have a Mercedes. He did drive a Mercedes. And he did own a house in Palm Springs. I mean, the stuff, if I were totally corrupt, this is what I would write. This is what I would do. Well, it turned out that was real life. And so Shoals came to see the show at least once. And he was tailed. They had people watching his every movement. Whether Oral actually knew about it or not, I don't know. But some of the people at the university did know what I was doing. But I got paid, so who cares. Toby Jenkins: So during this time, all these years, I assume you were teaching also but still doing theater. Bob Odle: No, at that time I was just doing theater. I had no time. Toby Jenkins: Was the theater community, live theater in Tulsa, did people attend the performances? Did it have lots of support? Bob Odle: We seated 750. That was what the fire marshal would allow in the building. We had lines that went from the box office around the corner and back to the alley, which is where our stage door was. I mean, we could stand and talk before the show to people who were going to see the show, maybe if they got in. Because we only seated 750. Dennis Neill: Those were the good old days. Those were great shows. Bob Odle: They were. 16 �Toby Jenkins: So looking back during those days and presently, is there still a lot of support in Tulsa for live theater? Bob Odle: I think so. I think Theater Tulsa is having, some part of it is the rent at the PAC. And Theater Tulsa has opened their place where I'm going tomorrow night and Saturday night, 55th and Peoria. It's a converted Dollar General store. And there are a lot of little splinter groups that do stuff. American Theater Company, I don't know. I mean, we always did five shows and we did a summer show. And at times we had like two or three shows running simultaneously. When we had Joyce running at the Mayo and Christmas Carol running at the PAC or whatnot. And some other times we did multiple shows at the same time. Because we had 25 people on our staff, full-time, paid. And others working part-time. Toby Jenkins: Who were cast members or writers, producers? Bob Odle: Musicians, concessions, bar workers, so on. Sometimes people in plays. But we had a staff of technicians and actors of like 25. Toby Jenkins: So here at the Equality Center, when we did our renovation about eight years ago, we felt like in our community we were having lots of theater groups that were showing an interest. And especially in our gay community, the queer community, about their interest in theater. One of the passions of some of our folks was that we convert a space into a theater space that could be used for the community, especially to make it accessible for people who wanted to do productions that might not have, you know, they might be cutting edge and be kind of outside of the standard stories to make sure that certainly queer theater had access to those theaters. And of course, it's named after Lynn Riggs, who wrote the story that became the Broadway musical, Oklahoma. Your thoughts about the Lynn Riggs Theater here at the Equality Center and the space and things like that. Bob Odle: Well, I love it. I think it's great. In fact, I was urging American Theater Company, we eventually moved, the Harwells bought the building at 308 South Lansing. And I always said this is a better place because there are posts there and I just like the Lynn Riggs better. I've seen some plays here. I've been to a lot of the Thursday night things and I like this venue. I think it's real neat. American Theater Company went from five shows down to last year, they did four shows. This year, they originally promoted three shows, but they eventually cut that back to one, Christmas Carol. And they do stand up comedy one night. They do, I think they have some drag shows out there. Occasionally, I mean, you know, it's not like the five show season that we used to market and then sometimes a tour or something special during the summer, it's not like that. I think that Christmas Carol hasn't drawn the past couple of years what it used to draw because the people who are managing the theater now determined that Christmas Carol is a tradition. So it doesn't need to be marketed. Well, they still market the Nutcracker. They still market other traditions. It needs to be marketed, people need to know. It needs to not be a secret production. I'm getting off on to my axe to grind. 17 �Toby Jenkins: Where all have you taught school? Dennis Neill: Well, TCC West and TCC North. English, comp. Toby Jenkins: No theater production or? Bob Odle: Well, I did have an acting class one semester and then that got to be a fiasco. It had to do with the management. I don't want to say anything more about that. But I taught at Central High School when it was downtown and I taught competitive speech and I directed plays and then I, well, I taught at Schulter for one year. They needed to bring up their test scores and they hired like the whole new administration and a third of the faculty was new and we brought up the test scores. So they weren't going to close. I hated leaving there because everybody was so supportive but I had this job offer at Mounds. And so it was like half the distance because I'd passed 201st Street halfway to Schulter. And so I took the job at Mounds and I drove down to Schulter to turn in my letters of resignation and to talk to them about, you know, I really liked this. Sorry to be leaving. And so I taught at Mounds for about 30 years and directed some plays, directed competitive speech. We won the state championship three years in a row. I had numerous individual state champions, one of whom never debated, but she is an attorney in Tulsa now and has fabulous commercials on Saturday Night Live and on the evening news. But she never, she persuaded me that she shouldn't take debate to, although she was undefeated. Bob Odle: Now, I'd be better if I took this, Mr. Odle. And so, okay. I mean, she persuaded me. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you ever teach at TU's theater department? Bob Odle: No, I didn't. Toby Jenkins: Were you involved with the? Bob Odle: After I graduated, I did do a play at TU that they then took to some contest at what used to be that horrible theater facility downtown in Oklahoma City [Mummers Theatre]. It's that thing that had boxes going every which way that they finally have torn down. And this should never have been built in the first place. Toby Jenkins: So just for purposes of our interview, the curtains in the Lynn Riggs were donated by TU Theater Department and the risers are from the TU Theater Department right before they closed down. Bob Odle: I know, and they still send me letters asking for money having closed the department that I graduated from years ago. And I think they gave the costumes to the PAC and they gave various other things away. Dennis Neill: We had to replace the curtains because they were out of code. 18 �Dennis Neill: Yeah, I think they had like a 10 or 15 year life. And so we replaced them in about 2020, 2021, something like that. Toby Jenkins: Let's go to our, I was curious to understand the trajectory in Tulsa, the incredible community support for live theater and how things have changed. You've lived through an interesting period. We talked about your, you know, being in college when Kennedy was assassinated. And here we are in 2026. During the, just real quickly, during the pandemic, were you involved in live theater and how the pandemic impacted our theater companies? Bob Odle: No, theater just totally shut down all over the world, I think. Now I, for a year there, I didn't go, except to go to research, I put on my mask and I still have masks in the car. But theater just shut down. And there was money, there was money for businesses that had to shut down and the theater applied for some grants and got some grants. The theater, the theater actually made more money the year we were shut down. They did no shows than some of the years when we'd done shows. Toby Jenkins: Because you didn't have any expenses. Toby Jenkins: Right. So here, I know that you, your family are here. Have you stayed involved in their lives? I mean, have they? Bob Odle: Well, they're all, my stepfather died in 2009 and my mother died just about three months ago. Toby Jenkins: Okay, our condolences. And how old was she? Bob Odle: She was 99 years and eight months and something. Toby Jenkins: Amazing. Bob Odle: She was, she would be, March 15th, she would be 100. And she was, she was doing all of her own, handling all of her business and doing all of her stuff until the very end when she just suddenly, precipitously went downhill. Toby Jenkins: Did she live by herself? Bob Odle: Yes, after my stepfather died, she did. She depended on her neighbor a lot and on me. It wasn't till I had to deal with our, the attorney that deals with our trust, and I had to write down, because I keep my calendars for years, and I had to write down all the times I'd taken her to the doctor and the dentist and the podiatrist and dermatologist and whatnot and to Reasor’s. And I didn't realize the amount of time and the amount of miles I was driving to take care of her. Toby Jenkins: Hmm. Well, I'm glad that she had you, and I'm glad that you had her. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And our condolences. What do you keep, what keeps you busy now? 19 �Bob Odle: Dealing with her estate. And a good friend of mine, the one who persuaded me to go back and get my teaching certificate and get a master's degree, he died July 10th of 2024. And so I was named co-executor of his estate. And we had to go to court Tuesday. That's why I couldn't meet Tuesday to deal with, we had a hearing dealing with that estate. I'm hopeful that before the two-year time passes, that we will have this probate all aside, but we had a business, we had three houses, multiple vehicles, and other property to deal with, and it's just been, it's been a nightmare. That has kept me really busy, and dealing with my mother, and now dealing with her estate, and trying to keep my own life going. Toby Jenkins: Now, are you involved in, I know that you're involved here in the organization, you come to some of the programs for older adults. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And are you involved in any other advocacy work, or political work, or? Bob Odle: Well, Tuesday, Tuesday I had to drop off the king cake, because it was Mardi Gras at the senior citizen breakfast. Then I dashed to the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Retired Educators Association, because I'm a retired teacher, and I took some sausage rolls to that, and stayed for that meeting. We always have interesting speakers. And so I'm involved in that. Last Friday was the Democrats' monthly luncheon at Interurban, and we have fascinating, well, Cindy Munson, who's the candidate for governor, spoke. And we always have fascinating speakers there. And so I go to that, and then I think there was one night this past week, maybe Tuesday night, Tuesday was a busy day, I went to Connie Dodson's kickoff for her campaign for school board, and I don't live in her district, but the idiot who represents that district now, I would like to see defeated. Toby Jenkins: So you're politically active. Bob Odle: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what is your present feelings about our, I mean, you've lived a long time, you've seen a lot of things. Bob Odle: Go back to the Truman, I remember when President Truman was reelected. Toby Jenkins: What's your present feelings about our political climate, and how you see, okay, yeah, yeah. Do you have some concerns? Bob Odle: Yes. I'm concerned about whether I've been contributing to a couple of the candidates for Congress, not the one who made a million millions while paying his employees minimum wage, but I've contributed to others, one of whom is my school board member, and I'm contributing, but I'm concerned about whether we're even going to have an election or any more elections. I'm concerned about what the Supreme Court might decide, whether they would give him free license to totally trample or burn or tear up the Constitution. 20 �I mean, a guy who was fired from, I saw a guy who was fired from ABC News on MSNow the other day. I don't remember his name, but I remember the interview where he talked to the president about the things in the Oval Office, or here's a copy of the Declaration of Independence. What does that stand for? Well, it's a declaration, and it deals with love. All of the he hases, that whole list of he hases deals with love, and yes, it's a declaration. That's in its title, the Declaration of Independence. Toby Jenkins: I mean, duh. Bob Odle: How stupid do you have to be? He is pretty stupid. Toby Jenkins: So you see our political climate, and you see the way, not just constitutional norms being eroded, but specifically the erasure of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer people, the blacks, American Indians, the arts being stripped of funding, the Kennedy Center, as a person who's fought and taught and been instrumental in keeping fine arts alive in our culture. What are your thoughts on that? Bob Odle: Well, it's not just gay rights. It's black rights. I mean, he complains that the National Museum of the Black Americans, or whatever that is, this Smithsonian institution, deals too much with slavery. And he has said there should be less emphasis on Martin Luther King Day, or Juneteenth. We should focus more on his birthday. He has insisted that that November 12th be called Columbus Day and not Indigenous Americans Day, which in the city of Tulsa and maybe Oklahoma, a lot of states have declared it to be Indigenous Americans Day. I mean, he and our governor, our governor waves his Cherokee citizenship card around, hate American Indians. He hates black people. I mean, is it any surprise that some of the generals that have been fired have been black? Toby Jenkins: And female. Bob Odle: And the two journalists, well, the commandant of the Coast Guard was female. And the two journalists who were arrested in church were both black. Two of them were black. And he, I mean, his racism goes back generations. He and his father were fined, what, two million dollars by the federal government for not renting to black people in their apartment buildings back in the 60s or 70s. I think that goes from his grandfather coming over here from Germany under suspicious circumstances whereby Germany, when he went back after World War I, Germany refused to have him and send him back here because he had avoided the draft. He'd avoided the draft by coming over here. He didn't tell them he had homosexual tendencies or anything like that. Apparently he didn't. But I don't know. The racism, and his grandfather grew up in Germany at a time when Wagner was heavily racist, when Adolf Hitler was being born and was growing up, when there was a lot of racism in Germany at that time. And so he brought that over here and instilled that in his son and his grandson. 21 �Toby Jenkins: So, as we come to the close of our interview, is there anything else you want us to talk about that we haven't talked about? Bob Odle: Not that I can think of, except I'm sad that there is only basically one gay bar in Tulsa. It doesn't give us much variety. That's why I like New Orleans. There's a lot of variety down there. A lot of cities have more variety than we have. Although they have gone to publishing a calendar and they have Latin Night, which starts at 10 o'clock on the last Friday. They have Leather Night. They have various nights. So they have opened it to various people. But I don't go there very often because it's boring. Hardly ever do I see anybody my age or anybody I know there, so I don't go. Dennis Neill: So, Bob, why do you think that in the early 80s we had like 19 bars. We're down to a handful. What do you think has caused that demise, even though our city is larger? Bob Odle: Well, I think from what I observe in Tulsa and in other cities, I think part of it is the AIDS crisis. I think there was a diminution of the audience after that. I think the pandemic that hit in 2020 is part of it. And I think also we're at an age when I think this is wonderful in a way, but in a way I think it's depressing. Young gay people can go to any bar, hold hands, kiss, hug, whatever, and nobody really cares. I see this in New Orleans a lot. I saw Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop, which is where Lafitte's in Exile first started, except they've dropped the exile now. Until the owner of the building found out they were gay and they already moved them out and then they moved into a bigger place down the street. But I've seen people holding hands. I've seen, obviously, gay couples in there and in other bars here in Tulsa and in other places. And I think it's the acceptance of gay couples everywhere, in addition to those other things, but I think it's just an evolution. And I think it's a wonderful thing. Dennis Neill: You touched on AIDS. Can you talk a little bit more about your personal experience in the theatre, in the theatrical community, the impact both locally and anything you know. I am thinking about John Thomeyer who was so active and passed from AIDS. What has been your personal experience with AIDS? Bob Odle: Well, an actor who toured with Gaslight, who we then hired as part of our full-time staff, eventually quit and moved to New York. And there he began to exhibit all these different, you know, symptoms and died a number of years ago. A good friend who was in some of our first shows, our first season, moved to New York. He got cancer, some sort of colorectal thing, and he retired and he moved back to Tulsa. He eventually died, but essentially it was AIDS, you know, HIV. And then another friend who died in New York, he was from Tulsa, graduated from Will Rogers, was a student there when I did my student teaching at Will Rogers. And he did some shows with us early on, but then he moved to New York and he eventually died, I believe, of AIDS. And so I've known people who've died. I haven't known of anyone, oh, there's somebody, I can't think who it was, but there's somebody I do know who died….I didn't know him very well, but he died of AIDS. And I'm aware of numerous people who've died of AIDS, HIV. 22 �Dennis Neill: And were you ever involved in the 80s and 90s with some of the support groups around here or AIDS response within the Tulsa community? Bob Odle: I went to one meeting at Nancy McDonald's house of PFLAG, but I just didn't have time to get involved with that. And I was involved with you and three or four other people in reorganizing TOHR. That was in the 80s. But I really didn't have time because I was still doing theater at the time, and I was out of town doing tours and things, and I really didn't have time to get involved. And that's the thing about doing theater now, because I'm so involved in some of these social and political things. I hate to give up, because I gave those things up when I was doing theater, because almost every night I had to work. Now I hate to, I can't give up the political and social things I'm involved in. It's that time of my life for me. Toby Jenkins: So as we kind of come to the close, and just give you a minute to think about this, is there anything you would want to say to anybody who comes after us, or younger people today who will see this interview? Is there anything you would like to say, like, this is my message to you for the future? Bob Odle: Things will get better. I saw a person who has a shop on Greenwood talking about, he's an older person, talking about younger black people, thinking, why are you so bitter about stuff? Well, they had, young black people are enjoying the fruits of their labor. Young gay people are enjoying the fruits of our labor. But our labor shouldn't stop. It can't stop. Because we have seen from the past year that they can go back, these things can go backwards. Toby Jenkins: So don't stop. Bob Odle: No, we have to keep fighting for our rights. It was Hubert Humphrey who said, freedom has to be won every day. Toby Jenkins: Very good. Okay, if you'll give us your name one more time, and today's date. Bob Odle: Bob Odle, February 19th, 2026. Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much for your time with us today. Bob Odle: Well, thank you. Toby Jenkins: Thank you, Bob. Addendum: 23 �Robert "Bob" Odle dressed for the role of "Rev. Dr. Oral Love" for a production of "Joyce Martel," produced by the American Theatre Company of Tulsa, OK. The company performed this production at various venues from 1975 to 1985, some of which include the following: Cain's Ballroom, The Inferno, The Captain's Cabin, Mayo Hotel, and the Brook Theatre. The image shows Odle dressed in a church minister's robe while clutching a one dollar bill. Phot courtesy of the Museum of Tulsa History. 24 �Depicting five theater actors dressed as "Martels" in the finale of the production "Joyce Martel: They Say It's Your Birthday," produced in 1985 by the American Theatre Company at the Brook Theatre in Tulsa, OK. The actors and actress are as follows (left to right): Robert "Bob" Odle, Karl Krause, Melanie Fry (in the role of Joyce Martel), Greg Roach, and Tony Gates (kneeling). Photo courtesy of the Museum of Tulsa History. 25 � https://history.okeq.org/files/original/92b7672f465b31469e90f256836e0487.mp4 4594a2c03a0488471c94cd800d12db1f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview - Feb. 19, 2026 Video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Robert Odle Interview Subject The topic of the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Project Interview from February 19, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert Odle, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 19, 2026 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins on February 19, 2026. Bob was born on May 15, 1945, in Kansas City, Missouri. His mom and stepdad moved to Tulsa when Bob was in the sixth grade. He graduated from Nathan Hale High School in 1963 and finished his theatre degree from the University of Tulsa in 1967. He was required to go to Oklahoma City for a possible induction into the military as this was the height of the Vietnam War. After two interviews, it was clear that Bob was gay and not subject to military service due to the ban at that time on homosexuals in the military. He began a teaching career in competitive speech and drama at Central High School in Tulsa. He discussed his early involvement in theatre with Gaslight Theatre and the American Theatre Company with its early satirical takes on Tulsa, Oral Roberts University and co-wrote ATC’s production of “A Christmas Carol,” which continues to be performed each December for some 50 years. Bob created the Brother Oral Love role that became a fixture of ATC’s shows along with the Oral Action Singers. Bob has stayed politically active, often writes reviews of plays and musicals and serves in other volunteer roles in the Tulsa community. 2026 A Christmas Carol American Theatre Company American Theatre Company (ATC) American Theatre Productions ATC ATC productions Bob Odle Brother Oral Love Central High School Gaslight Theatre interview military inclusion Nathan Hale High School OKEQ Oral History Project Oral Action Singers oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Oral Roberts University Robert (Bob) Odle Robert Odle Toby Jenkins transcript TU Tulsa Central High School University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Laura Belmonte Interview Subject The topic of the resource Laura Belmonte OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from February 13, 2019 Description An account of the resource Laura was interviewed on February 13, 2019, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender Oral History Project. <strong>A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Born in New York, Laura attended the University of Georgia and finished a graduate program in American History at the University of Virginia. In 1996 she joined the faculty 7 at Oklahoma State University as an assistant professor of history and became head of the history department at OSU. For six years starting in 2003, she served on the board and then as president of Oklahomans for Equality and its predecessor, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Later, she joined the national board of The Equality Network and founded The Equality Network. In 2019, she became dean of the Liberal Arts and Human Sciences College at Virginia Tech. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Belmonte, Angus Henderson, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 13, 2019 2019 Angus Henderson available at Center Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Equality Network interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Micki White OkEq Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives Oklahomans for Equality Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2020] Jonathan Stanley Interview Subject The topic of the resource Jonathan Stanley Oral History Project Interview from July 14, 2020 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Morgan Allen and Fraser Kaster on July 14, 2020. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Jonathan discusses his experiences with the Tulsa gay scene and his involvement with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jonathan Stanley, Morgan Allen, Fraser Kaster, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 14, 2020 2020 available at Center Fraser Kastner interview Jonathan Stanley Morgan Allen OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Dwight Kealiher Interview Subject The topic of the resource Dwight Kealiher OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from February 13, 2019 Description An account of the resource Dwight was interviewed on February 13, 2019, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender Oral History Project. Dwight discusses his early life, experiences at Oklahoma State University (the Oklahoma A&amp;M College) in the 1950s, his marriage and family and later coming out. As a CPA in Tulsa, he reviews his long-time association with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (now Oklahomans for Equality,) Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN), Tulsa Cares and Health Outreach Prevention Education (HOPE). Dwight was born on August 15, 1937, in Checotah, Oklahoma and passed on August 15, 2024. <strong>A copy of the transcript is on file in the History Project Archives at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dwight Kealiher, Angus Henderson, Allison Richmond, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 13, 2019 2019 Allison Richmond Angus Henderson available at Center Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Dwight Kealiher H.O.P.E. Health Outreach Prevention and Education (H.O.P.E.) HOPE interview Micki White Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project RAIN Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN) TOHR transcript Tulsa CARES Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2020] Donald Fruechting Interview Subject The topic of the resource Donald Fruechting Oral History Project Interview from November 20, 2020 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Morgan Allen on November 20, 2020. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong><strong> </strong>Donald discusses his early life, family background, military service, personal relationships, and experiences living with HIV. Donald shares insights into his identity as a gay man, the challenges he faced, and the importance of community and family support. He reflects on his journey through love, loss, and spirituality, emphasizing the blessings he has received throughout his life. Donald was born on July 4th, 1938 in rural Owasso, Oklahoma and passed on August 21, 2021 in Tulsa. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donald Fruechting, Morgan Allen, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 20, 2020 2020 AIDS/HIV available at Center Donald Fruechting HIV HIV/AIDs interview Morgan Allen OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2020] Bob Ritz Interview Subject The topic of the resource Bob Ritz Oral History Project Interview from August 4, 2020 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Morgan Allen and Fraser Kastner on August 4, 2020. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> In the interview, Bob discusses his early life, coming out in the late 1960s, his military experience, involvement in the Tulsa LGBTQ community and work on behalf of immigrant rights. Bob passed on October 21, 2024. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bob Ritz, Morgan Allen, Fraser Kastner, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 4, 2020 2020 available at Center Bob Ritz Fraser Kastner immigration interview Morgan Allen OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Tommy Chesbro Interview Subject The topic of the resource Tommy Chesbro OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from April 24, 2019 Description An account of the resource Tommy was interviewed on April 24, 2019, by Oklahoma State<br />University as part of its Diverse Gender and Sexuality in Oklahoma Oral History Project. In this interview, Tommy discusses his early life in Blackwell and Stillwater, Oklahoma, his experiences at Oklahoma State University, and his long-time leader as an HIV educator and counselor. <strong>A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tommy Chesbro, Ryan Dyer, Angus Henderson, Ashlyn Ruley, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 24, 2019 2019 Angus Henderson Ashlyn Ruley Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project interview Micki White Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Ryan Dyer Tommy Chesbro transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Al Carlozzi Interview Subject The topic of the resource Al Carlozzi Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from June 6, 2019 Description An account of the resource Al was interviewed on June 6, 2019, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project. In the interview, Al discusses his early life, service in the Air Force and early outreach to the LGBTQ+ community for mental health. In 2006, he became director of the OSU-Tulsa Counseling Center (now named the Al Carlozzi Center for Counseling) until his retirement in 2019. He has been a long-time consultant with Oklahomans for Equality regarding its counseling services. He collaborated on the book “Transgender and Gender Diverse Persons: A Handbook for Service Providers, Educators, and Families.” <strong>A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Al Carlozzi, Angus Henderson, Allison Richmond, Matthew D. Williams, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 6, 2019 2019 Al Carlozzi Allison Richmond Angus Henderson Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project interview Matthew D. Williams Micki White Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project OSU Oral History Project transcript